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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gary on January 26, 2015, 01:59:33 PM
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Sometime within the next 12 months, I plan to buy an RV / travel trailer. I am semi-retired and my wife plans to retire early 2016. We plan to spend about 100 days per year traveling across the US. Maybe more if we both really take to it.
We have looked at travel trailers at RV shows the past couple of years. As of now, my choice is a regular tow behind (not a 5th wheel) with a base dry weight of 5000-6000 pounds. I prefer to tow the trailer to a spot and have the tow vehicle available for exploring, errands etc. I sold my last pickup, a Ford F150 a couple of years ago and don't particularly want another pickup. I am considering buying a used late model all wheel drive SUV to do the work, and my choices have been narrowed to a Lexus GX470 (tow capacity 6500), Porsche Cayenne S (7716), or a Land Rover LR3 or LR4 (7716). Does anyone here have experience with the forgoing vehicles? How about towing with them?
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Sometime within the next 12 months, I plan to buy an RV / travel trailer. I am semi-retired and my wife plans to retire early 2016. We plan to spend about 100 days per year traveling across the US. Maybe more if we both really take to it.
We have looked at travel trailers at RV shows the past couple of years. As of now, my choice is a regular tow behind (not a 5th wheel) with a base dry weight of 5000-6000 pounds. I prefer to tow the trailer to a spot and have the tow vehicle available for exploring, errands etc. I sold my last pickup, a Ford F150 a couple of years ago and don't particularly want another pickup. I am considering buying a used late model all wheel drive SUV to do the work, and my choices have been narrowed to a Lexus GX470 (tow capacity 6500), Porsche Cayenne S (7716), or a Land Rover LR3 or LR4 (7716). Does anyone here have experience with the forgoing vehicles? How about towing with them?
When towing a tag trailer (tow behind), weight distribution and sway control are VERY important, as is the wheelbase of your tow vehicle. A longer tow vehicle will be a more stable tow platform than a similar weight shorter tow vehicle, such as many SUV's.
Also, I know you said that you didn't particularly want another pickup, but, if you got a pickup with an 8' bed, you could take a motorcycle along with you in the bed.
I wouldn't want to be gone for 100 days straight w/o a motorcycle.
Also, tow ratings are many vehicles are often times higher than what you'll want to tow with them. For example, a couple years back, I think it was 2012, or so, Ford rated the F150 up to 11,200 lbs towing. Now, that was for a 2WD, standard cab, but, still, there is no way in hell that you want an 11,200 lb trailer behind an F150. 7,000 lbs is about the max that you'd want to pull with an F150 - -and then, only if said F150 had the tow package (trans oil cooler, proper gearing, etc).
You might want to check some of the RV forums (rv.net is one) for info on tow vehicles.
Oh, and enjoy being retired!
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I've got a "lightweight" 5th Wheel Toy Hauler (10k max weight), I have a Chevy Duramax.
I would strongly recommend a 3/4 ton truck. I can't imagine towing with an import SUV, although I am told that some have had good luck with Infiniti/Nissan V8. Also, the tow weight (not dry weight) for your planned trailer will already exceed the tow rating for all the SUVs that you've listed. There is probably a good reason that you never see those SUVs towing any travel trailers. If you must go for an SUV find an old Ford Excursion or Suburban 2500.
Good luck with your quest. You might try RV.Net
(http://g1.img-dpreview.com/4F4BC27B0C854A439A5EFD6A1C7B424E.jpg)
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Sometime within the next 12 months, I plan to buy an RV / travel trailer. I am semi-retired and my wife plans to retire early 2016. We plan to spend about 100 days per year traveling across the US. Maybe more if we both really take to it.
We have looked at travel trailers at RV shows the past couple of years. As of now, my choice is a regular tow behind (not a 5th wheel) with a base dry weight of 5000-6000 pounds. I prefer to tow the trailer to a spot and have the tow vehicle available for exploring, errands etc. I sold my last pickup, a Ford F150 a couple of years ago and don't particularly want another pickup. I am considering buying a used late model all wheel drive SUV to do the work, and my choices have been narrowed to a Lexus GX470 (tow capacity 6500), Porsche Cayenne S (7716), or a Land Rover LR3 or LR4 (7716). Does anyone here have experience with the forgoing vehicles? How about towing with them?
From someone with tens of thousands of towing miles, your towing experience will be miserable, if you're pulling at or near the max rating for your truck/suv.
If you're going to be towing lots of miles with a high profile trailer that weighs 6000+ lbs, you really ought to be using a truck with at least 8000 lbs towing capacity.
Also, you need to be looking at the GVW of the trailer, not the dry weight. Add in drinking water, gray water, black water, batteries, LP tanks, luggage, etc, and you will really need a larger truck. If the GVW of the trailer is around 8000 lbs, you should look at a truck with 10,000 lbs towing.
Like it, or not, you really should be looking at Suburbans/Tahoes/Expeditions if you want an SUV to pull the trailer you're considering. In addition to the basic ability to pull the load in a straight line, you need to consider the truck's suspension, brakes, and transmission. You really should have a transmission cooler. Also, you may need to consider using "LT" tires instead of the standard "P" tires that come from the factory on most SUVs. Much stiffer construction, and they perform better towing a load. (harsher ride empty, though).
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From someone with tens of thousands of towing miles, your towing experience will be miserable, if you're pulling at or near the max rating for your truck/suv.
If you're going to be towing lots of miles with a high profile trailer that weighs 6000+ lbs, you really ought to be using a truck with at least 8000 lbs towing capacity.
Also, you need to be looking at the GVW of the trailer, not the dry weight. Add in drinking water, gray water, black water, batteries, LP tanks, luggage, etc, and you will really need a larger truck. If the GVW of the trailer is around 8000 lbs, you should look at a truck with 10,000 lbs towing.
Like it, or not, you really should be looking at Suburbans/Tahoes/Expeditions if you want an SUV to pull the trailer you're considering. In addition to the basic ability to pull the load in a straight line, you need to consider the truck's suspension, brakes, and transmission. You really should have a transmission cooler. Also, you may need to consider using "LT" tires instead of the standard "P" tires that come from the factory on most SUVs. Much stiffer construction, and they perform better towing a load. (harsher ride empty, though).
I agree with rocker59. You should be looking for a 3/4 ton tow vehicle. The last year for the 3/4 ton Suburban was 2013. With the long wheelbase heaver frame and larger brakes it should be an excellent tow vehicle. Here is a link to what GM might be up to in the future bringing back the 3/4 ton Sub.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2014/10/community-question-what-do-you-want-to-see-from-gms-possible-34-ton-suvs/
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I agree with no small SUV. My dad had the small jeep cherokee, straight 6, auto and pulled a trailer that was a little below the tow rating of that Jeep. He regretted it, terrible mileage and it would struggle going up hills. He rarely got better than 10-12 mpg pulling.
I pulled the same trailer with my Dodge 2500 cummins and get 17-18 on the interstate. You really want a heavier vehicle so the trailer doesn't push you around, with enough brakes to stop both. Gas mileage is a big expense when you are talking 10-12 or 14-16 over a long trip, especially at $4 a gallon.
Body on frame is stronger than uni body vehicles, you will be dollars ahead with a 3/4 truck than a small SUV.
Old Head
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I know it is not what you want to hear but the above are correct. If you want to hear some more bad news try the rv.net forum and post your desired setup. The "weight police" will tell you to follow the mfg specs for the tow vehicle GCWR and the trailer GVWR.
But, all is not horrible, you just will need more vehicle than you listed.
I have towed many different types of trailers over the years. Not something to take lightly, especially when you encounter 40-50mph gusting crosswinds.
Our little fifth wheel trailer has a GVWR of 8400lb and an empty weight of 5400lb. This is one of the smallest fifth wheels around (except for the SCAMP). Of course that empty weight is not really empty. That is the weight of the trailer without the a/c unit and empty tanks. Add the a/c unit, water (and grey/black water) and cargo to get your travel weight. Our travel weight is around 7000lb (yes, checked on scales, which is something you should do just to make sure).
Our first truck was a Toyota Tundra. It did fairly well for a truck that was right at it's weight limits with that trailer. But, I could tell it was stressed. When I changed to the 3/4T diesel it was like night and day. It is very pleasant to tow a load that is about half your rated capacities :)
If you are going to tow a lot of miles, say 10k a year or more, get a tow vehicle rated for quite a bit more than your trailer GVWR. When you get to one of those US highways with a 10% grade you'll thank me :) Heck, even a long 6% grade, like in the Rockies, I40 through the Smoky Mountains, I84 east of Pendleton, Or, etc can be stressing if you are towing at your limits. You do not want to be one of those folks with a burned brake smell following you down the mountain.
Personally I won't ever have a bumper tow that is longer than my tow vehicle. Just scares me too much in wind and high speed truck traffic. Watching those folks from behind when they are fighting windy conditions makes me feel sorry for them. The fifth wheel just rolls a long nice and steady. Yes, a lot of people tow them without a problem. Kudos to them.
As stated above, load balance with a bumper pull is CRITICAL. Can't emphasize it enough. You get it wrong and it can be catastrophic. Good weight distribution hitch is needed and some sort of sway control is probably a good idea, but, that is arguable.
And gas mileage. It sucks, especially with a gas engine and especially if you are closer to your towing limits. The Tundra we had averaged 8mpg with our fifth wheel. The diesel averages 11mpg. Both of those at 65mph (which is the speed limit for most trailer tires).
Sorry, for the bad news, but, it isn't all horrible. Research the kinds of trailers you might like to live in and then pick the tow vehicle. If you pick the tow vehicle first it severely limits your choices.
Oh, and consider what will happen if you decide that a 20ft trailer is too small for your needs. That 25ft one might be nice, but, your tow vehicle won't do it. A lot of folks will recommend you get a tow vehicle that is capable of towing more so you won't be stuck if you decide to upgrade later. That decision is a very personal one. The wife and I love our 'little' 24ft fifth wheel. But, we also do not stay in it for more than 2 or 3 weeks at a time. If we needed to stay in it much longer than that we'd want a bigger one.
Have fun shopping.
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http://www.canamrv.ca
A bit unconventional, but has the chops to back up what he says. If you wish to tow with those vehicles, this is your man.
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agree with Charlie (first time ever).
He makes a great point about 5th wheels. They are much easier to hitch and unhitch, much easier to tow, and offer more room inside. 5th Wheels are much easier for novice tower like me.
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Sometime within the next 12 months, I plan to buy an RV / travel trailer. I am semi-retired and my wife plans to retire early 2016. We plan to spend about 100 days per year traveling across the US. Maybe more if we both really take to it.
We have looked at travel trailers at RV shows the past couple of years. As of now, my choice is a regular tow behind (not a 5th wheel) with a base dry weight of 5000-6000 pounds. I prefer to tow the trailer to a spot and have the tow vehicle available for exploring, errands etc. I sold my last pickup, a Ford F150 a couple of years ago and don't particularly want another pickup. I am considering buying a used late model all wheel drive SUV to do the work, and my choices have been narrowed to a Lexus GX470 (tow capacity 6500), Porsche Cayenne S (7716), or a Land Rover LR3 or LR4 (7716). Does anyone here have experience with the forgoing vehicles? How about towing with them?
Gary, I work for Land Rover and the LR4 is a very capable tow vehicle, especially if equipped with "Tow Assist" However, I would strongly suggest you only buy one with a factory warranty in effect or a "Certified Pre Owned" which has an extended warranty with it, as repairs can be costly. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. :BEER:
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I agree with the advice about getting a 3/4 tow vehicle (I have a Chevy diesel so I'm biased).
A couple years ago we had a 24' travel trailer/tow hauler. It was 4,300lbs empty. Probably never more than 6,000 fully loaded (including 800lb ATV). I was pulling it with a 2011 Jeep Cherokee Overland with the Hemi, full tow and air suspension. I was using the top of line Reese WDH with anti-sway. I was well under the factory towing limits of the Cherokee (7,200lbs for 4wd Hemi).
Bottom line is it sucked towing with the Cherokee. Once the winds would kick up on I-70 we wold get pushed around and the gas mileage was horrendous (as low as 6mph when heavy wind). I traded it for a Diesel 3/4. We have since upgraded to a 28' travel trailer/toy hauler that is much heavier and although it is "1/2 ton towable" I am not comfortable towing with anything less than a 3/4, especially when in the mountains where we mostly camp.
If you have room in the garage a 3/4 crew cab has more passenger room inside than any of the SUVs you listed and with a nice hard tonneau cover or camper shell, its a much better camping option.
Don't be scared off by the high prices of the loaded up Chevy diesels. If you shop around you can get 10k off sticker with current promotions. I just traded my '13 for a '15. If your in the Midwest and need info on a dealer, shoot me a PM.
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Some good advice here. Thanks. If I have to get a 3/4 ton pickup so be it, but I plan to explore the other vehicle options thoroughly before making a decision.
Thanks for the link to http://www.canamrv.ca rboe. There is an article about pulling a 30 foot Airstream with a Porsche Cayenne Diesel. He used the standard hitch, not a wdh. Andy said the experience was a pleasant surprise. Towing at 65 mph across the Skyway Bridge under wind warnings was completely drama free and quiet. He said the rock solid structure and the amazing suspension was what really set this tow vehicle apart.
To me there is no doubt the Cayenne has the power, structure, brakes and suspension to handle an RV within its weight limit. My main concern with this vehicle is the hitch strength (it may need to be reinforced a bit) and the 114" wheelbase.
As to the LR, it too has the power, but with a short wheelbase. Apparently though it has a unitized body it actually has a separate frame. At least that is what I read.
I am not concerned so much about gas mileage. The difference between 8mpg and 14mpg on a 4 week 5000 mile trip is $800 at $4/gal or $200/week. Further, if I have to purchase a diesel to get that mileage, the difference shrinks considerably due to the higher price of diesel.
Well, I have a few months to research and hopefully make the best decision.
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You don't have to get a diesel for towing. As you noted, by the time you factor in the price of the fuel it is a break even. And, maintenance costs on a diesel are substantially more. The advantage of the diesel is in the torque available when towing. It is a personal decision. I love my diesel when towing. When not towing it is a PITA. If you want to read a good series of heated arguments about gas vs diesel just go to the rv.net website. There are a few threads on it ;)
If you even consider having to beef up a hitch, it is the wrong vehicle. I hate to say it, but, a Cayenne pulling a 30ft trailer to me is a disaster waiting to happen. I think you are on the right track when you are looking at wheelbase. Short is not good for towing.
You can find a ton of people who are "happy" with what they have, even if it is a rig I'd rather not drive. The more they spent on the rig, the 'happier' they will be because they won't admit having spent that much money on a wrong decision.
You can also look up a ton of arguments on rv.net about bumper tow vs fifth wheel.
Airstream's do tend to do better in crosswinds due to their shape. If I were to get a bumper tow that is the brand I would buy, for that reason alone. There is a compromise on interior space because of that design, but, the towing stability difference would be worth it to me.
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When towing with a diesel, it's about the available torque at 65mph - 75mph on the highway. The extra fuel economy is a small bonus.
You will find that cruising RPM at 70 mph is about 2000 rpm +/-.
What you run into with gas engines is that they make peak torque at 3500-4500 rpm, so will be shifting all the time, and running at higher rpm than the diesel.
The big advantage of a diesel, it will make peak torque in the 1800-2200 rpm range, right where you're cruising on the interstate. This makes a huge difference in towing comfort and economy, not to mention wear and tear on the drive train. You don't have to go 3/4 ton to go diesel. You could look at the new RAM 1500 diesel, too.
I tow 5500-6000 lbs with a 1500 4x4 Chevrolet Suburban with towing package. In the flat lands, it's more than adequate. In the mountains, it is barely adequate. The engine spends a lot of time shifting on rolling hills on the interstate because it makes peak torque (325 lb/ft) at something like 4000 rpm. On two lane mountain roads, it spends a lot of time in second and third gear, turning a lot of rpm, to pull the load up the hills. On long down hill grades, the brakes will get hot and fade. I'm talking miles of up to 11%, like we have here in the Arkansas Ozarks.
My truck is rated for 8400 lbs towing. I've done that one time. It was not fun, and I will never pull that much with that truck again.
I see this all the time, people wanting to pull with the minimum acceptable tow vehicle. It may work on paper, it may work around town, but out on the road the short-comings will be glaring. There is no way I'd hook 6000 lbs to anything less than a 1/2 ton truck SUV, and plan on hauling all over the country with it.
Every time I pull my horse trailer across The Ozarks with my 5.3L 1500 Suburban, I wish it was a diesel powered 2500.
I've always wondered why they discontinued it, but the most common SUV towing an RV that I've ever seen was the Ford Excursion. Fewer of them on the road, now that they're getting older, but it was really popular with the RV crowd.
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You could look at the new RAM 1500 diesel, too.
The new 2016 Nissan Titan with Cummins diesel might fit the bill too.
http://www.nissanusa.com/trucks/2016-titan/
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Opinions about towing vary by a lot, as you may have noticed. Why? There is a lot of different towing needs. One person may get along fine towing at max capacity, especially if they are just going out for a weekend at the lake a few times a year. You can tow just about any trailer with just about any car if you are only going a short distance not very often.
My father-in-law towed a trailer with his Dodge Rampage truck. If you don't remember it was a truck made from cutting down a front wheel drive car. 2.2L 4cyl with 5spd manual. He had a fifth wheel put in the back and he towed a 4000lb trailer with it. Yep. And he could maintain 65mph on the flats in 4th gear. Yes, he did not tow it very much, probably twice a year, a couple hundred miles each trip. He also replaced two clutches in it in 4 years. It was perfect for his needs.
Our Tundra was sufficient for our towing needs. Two trips a year, 5k miles each. But, it was much less comfortable than the larger truck. Many, many people use the Tundra and other smaller trucks/SUV's to tow RV's. Before you emulate them, ask them how many miles they have towed and where they went. You'll find most do not tow very many times or very far. And they will stay home when weather is marginal.
When you decide to tow a lot, then the tow vehicle takes a lot more stress and is much larger part of the purchase. There is a good reason why you don't see a lot of smaller tow vehicles at RV parks/campgrounds.
PS sorry about all this stuff. Just would be sorry to see you make an expensive purchase like a Land Rover or Cayenne and then be unhappy about your towing experience.
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My father-in-law towed a trailer with his Dodge Rampage truck. If you don't remember it was a truck made from cutting down a front wheel drive car. 2.2L 4cyl with 5spd manual. He had a fifth wheel put in the back and he towed a 4000lb trailer with it. Yep. And he could maintain 65mph on the flats in 4th gear. Yes, he did not tow it very much, probably twice a year, a couple hundred miles each trip. He also replaced two clutches in it in 4 years. It was perfect for his needs.
At the York swapmeet this year, there was a VW (Rabbit) Pickup with stacks poking up through the bed and a fifth-wheel hitch! My friends and I all had a good chuckle about it. Hope he at least upgraded the engine to a 1.9 TDI. :)
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Another way to look at the extra diesel cost argument is this. A diesel pickup may cost an extra $10,000 over the equivalent gas one. However when you go to sell it, you will discover that your diesel truck retains much more value. Say about $7,000 over the gas equivalent at sell time. It effectively only cost you an extra $3,000.
What can't be quantifies but through experience is how much less stress you will have towing with a properly equipped vehicle. That is what everyone here who is has done it, is trying to express. It just isn't worth it, but you might have to figure that out for yourself like most of us did.
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On another Guzzi board, one of the guys had a Cayenne and had this to say (FYI)
My outstanding German Porsche Cayenne had:
faulty intermediate drive shaft bearing
faulty fuel pump
plastic coolant hoses mounted below the intake manifold that cracked and required removal of entire fuel rail assembly and intake manifold to service. Replacement part by Porsche was aluminum. Go figure.
faulty front differential. Took Porsche 3 tries to get it right.
and for the me, the coup de grace being the upside down oil scraper rings on the pistons.
He later purchased a Duramax for his towing needs.
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Gary,
Since you don't yet have the RV, here's something to consider: Buy a nice used diesel Class A motorhome and tow your Land Rover or Porsche.
It's a buyers' market right now on the Class A and large Class C motorhomes, and they will have more than enough tow capacity to haul the dinghy of your choice.
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The canamrv fellow makes a few good points that tend to get glossed over. For starters; he tends to set up non-traditional tow vehicles with an Airstream which aerodynamically places a much smaller load on the tow vehicle than most. Also; the folks using the non-traditional tow vehicles, for whatever reason, do not want a pickup. Finally; most are not full time or even part time RV'ers so feel no need to buy a vehicle for towing when it will be used for that say 2% to 5% of its' use through the year.
A final note; the tow vehicles he sets up (Taurus, Chrysler 300 etc.) were the typical tow vehicle when I was growing up. Pickups are kinda of a modern upgrade (with 5th wheels they make a lot of sense and in some cases they are your only choice).
Diesel or gas; I think gas has the advantage now. Cheaper to buy, maintain and feed. You'll need to be a long hauler full timer owner with a heavy load and/or own your vehicle for a long time to tip the balance in favor of diesel. Diesel has advantages over gas, but the economics can be very hard to justify - compared to modern engines (especially the turbo's - but I have concerns about the longevity of turbo's; a fine to boat to find myself in as my new pickup has two of the damn things :P ).
I ended up with a F150 with a tow package for two main reasons. The Flex with a tow package sold just as I arrived ::) and I wanted the ground clearance for the nasty desert roads we have. The Flex has a much better ride, almost the hauling capabilities of a 150, better mileage, nicer cockpit; but sits way too close to the ground. sigh... Besides; having never owned a pickup I was due. And I can haul my bikes in the back. ;D
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Gary,
Since you don't yet have the RV, here's something to consider: Buy a nice used diesel Class A motorhome and tow your Land Rover or Porsche.
It's a buyers' market right now on the Class A and large Class C motorhomes, and they will have more than enough tow capacity to haul the dinghy of your choice.
That's certainly a consideration. If I go that way, I would probably plan on towing something smaller and less expensive, like a Subaru.
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(Taurus, Chrysler 300 etc.) were the typical tow vehicle when I was growing up. Pickups are kinda of a modern upgrade
The Full size cars of the 1960s and 1970s are not the full size cars of today. The cars back then were built on frames and were available with big block engines. We used full size Chevrolets, when I was a kid, to tow our horse trailer. 396 BB and 400 SB power. The trailer was lighter back then, so the full load was probably 4500-5000 lbs, and those late '60s/early'70s Impalas/Caprices would do the job. Even did it with a 1974 Buick LeSabre. We got our first pick up in 1977. Today's cars are weak unibody things that could never do what those old full size cars could do.
The Flex has a much better ride, almost the hauling capabilities of a 150,
According to Ford:
F150 = Max towing 11,300 lbs, depending upon engine/transmission/rear gearing
http://www.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/14FLRV&TT_F150_Sep11.pdf
Flex = Max trailer loaded weight 4,000 lbs. Class III hitch package required for loads over 2,000 lbs
http://www.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/14_flex_sep11.pdf
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Even with heavier duty cars back then, our Plymouth station wagon with a 383 was just adequate for towing a 2000lb boat and trailer. Good for weekend trips to the lake. Once in the mountains had to watch the temp gauge.
If you are going to consider a MH......another can of worms. :D
We had a shorter Class A with 454 Chevy. It was nice for weekend trips and it easily towed our Ford Ranger 4WD pickup. I would not have wanted to drive it for longer distances. For that I'd almost insist on a diesel too.
But, having driven a lot of different MH's (family was all equipped with MH's at one point) I would still go with a fifth wheel over a MH just because it is one vehicle instead of two (don't forget the extra insurance).
A lot of differing opinions on this too. Again, you can read all the heated debates on the subject at rv.net. :)
As far as I saw it, a MH is ideal if your overnight stays are shorter and you are driving more hours. it is nice to get out of bed, get in the drivers seat and go while your spouse sleeps in. Or to have one of you drive while the other makes lunch (or uses the bathroom). I know one couple who would change drivers on the fly as well. They would start out in the morning and not stop until they got to their destination (diesel pushers can have big fuel tanks too). The MH typically also come with built in generator that can be started and stopped from inside. That's an option only on some trailers (usually much larger ones).
Yep, tons of choices and opinions. Took me about 3 months of research each time we bought an RV.
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The Full size cars of the 1960s and 1970s are not the full size cars of today. The cars back then were built on frames and were available with big block engines. We used full size Chevrolets, when I was a kid, to tow our horse trailer. 396 BB and 400 SB power. The trailer was lighter back then, so the full load was probably 4500-5000 lbs, and those late '60s/early'70s Impalas/Caprices would do the job. Even did it with a 1974 Buick LeSabre. We got our first pick up in 1977. Today's cars are weak unibody things that could never do what those old full size cars could do.
According to Ford:
F150 = Max towing 11,300 lbs, depending upon engine/transmission/rear gearing
http://www.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/14FLRV&TT_F150_Sep11.pdf
Flex = Max trailer loaded weight 4,000 lbs. Class III hitch package required for loads over 2,000 lbs
http://www.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/14_flex_sep11.pdf
Indeed; full frames, but the unibodies in those cars are not as weak as you seem to assume (however; on the RV forum a fellow with a Subaru tried some towing with his Outback, ripped the hitch assembly off the unibody - canamrv has had much better success with the Taurus and 300). Those cars, i.e. Flex and Taurus wth eco boost do have the horsepower, plus they have independent suspension. Something canamrv wants, for avoidance maneuvering - which pickups seem to be poor at.
No argument on the towing limits listed by Ford; but I choose the word "hauling" to mean carrying, not towing. A typical F150, without an upgrade for GVWR will only carry/haul a couple hundred pounds more than a Flex.
Also; for tow ratings, he has found that manufactures tend to grossly under rate the true capabilities of cars, while being a bit optimistic with trucks. Considering what he has done, in the real world, over the years I'm inclined to believe him.
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No argument on the towing limits listed by Ford; but I choose the word "hauling" to mean carrying, not towing. A typical F150, without an upgrade for GVWR will only carry/haul a couple hundred pounds more than a Flex.
But this thread is about "towing", and I don't care to search up the cargo capacity specs for the two. No one buys a base pickup, so the "typical" F150 has a 5.0 or EcoBoost and a trailer package.
Also; for tow ratings, he has found that manufactures tend to grossly under rate the true capabilities of cars, while being a bit optimistic with trucks. Considering what he has done, in the real world, over the years I'm inclined to believe him.
We all need to believe in something...
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Gary,
I've been considering a similar dilemma, and as of yet have not fully decided what to do.
Plan A was to buy a 2500/3500 4x4 diesel pickup, then in a couple years buy a Living Quarters Horse trailer. Right now we're either sleeping in the back of the Suburban, or in a tent. Sleeping in an RV would be much better! Problem with Plan A is cost. A good used truck like I want would be $25k. A good used LQ horse trailer would be $15k-$25k. So, total investment of $40k +/-, and it would take me a few years to put it all together.
Plan B came to me one night when I was thinking that the horse trailer we have now is perfectly adequate and all we need to add is the Living Quarters. That got me to looking at Class C RVs. In searching, I have found that I can purchase a nice, used Class C RV with either big block gas, or Diesel power for $18k-$29k. Basically the cost of one of the pieces of Plan A. This plan B thing would also give me the flexibility to travel with horses, motorcycles, or nothing, and be of a reasonable size, so it could still be relatively easy to drive just about anywhere. The biggest thing I'd be giving up would be 4x4 and off pavement ability. It's real easy to stick anything 4x2 in the winter and spring if you get off of a hard surfaced asphalt or gravel road...
There are a lot of nice, low mileage Class B+ and C RVs out there. Amazing, really. So, I'm leaning towards Plan B and a small to medium sized Class C RV that can pull my horse trailer. If I do this, I'll keep my Suburban for everyday use, and use the RV anytime we want to venture someplace overnight, which can be a couple weekends per month from March through November. I'm not quite ready to pull the trigger, but would like to sometime in the next year.
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For what we use it for I would go to a Class C as well....but....they tend to be of smaller floor space and other compromises, like 'corner' beds which are a PITA after a while (one person has to climb over the other). For long term trips as in living for a month or two I'd think carefully before investing in one. Some of them can be quite large, but, those also tend to be closer in price to used Class A's. One benefit of a Class C is that you do not feel the sway from the wind like you do when sitting higher in the Class A's. The other benefit is they can be worked on at any car dealer and parts are not unreasonable.
It really does depend a LOT on how much space you can live in, comfortably, over the long haul. We'd be screwed if our little fiver did not have a good size slide out to give some extra floor space. That extra 18inches does not sound like a lot but it makes a HUGE difference.
Here you're talking about going to a bigger RV and the wife and I are discussing downsizing to sleeping in a van for our trips :D
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Here you're talking about going to a bigger RV and the wife and I are discussing downsizing to sleeping in a van for our trips :D
We have a full size mattress in the back of the Suburban. (2nd row seats folded, 3rd row removed). All the comforts of home!
The problem is when you need to step out of it when it's raining, or to simply change clothes. However, It's much more comfortable/secure sleeping in the Suburban, than sleeping in the tent.
I've been noticing all the compromises with the Class C RVs. No diesels in the smaller ones. Not enough towing capacity in the larger ones (29 ft F450. I'm not looking at the Super C RVs. They're expensive!) 26 foot is the shortest with walk-around bed in the back. 29 foot has too much overhang. 23 foot you have to sleep in the cabover or pull out the sofa. Etc. Etc.
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I pulled my 5th Wheel with a 2500 light duty gas 6.o before I got the 2500 HD Duramax.
The gas motor would race to 4k rpms plus on a hill and gave me 5-6 mpg towing.
With diesel, I get 11+ and it's running 2k. I was able to get a great deal on a used Duramax. Sold the gas one for what I paid.
Other thing. Cruise at 65,
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We have a full size mattress in the back of the Suburban. (2nd row seats folded, 3rd row removed). All the comforts of home!
The problem is when you need to step out of it when it's raining, or to simply change clothes. However, It's much more comfortable/secure sleeping in the Suburban, than sleeping in the tent.
I've been noticing all the compromises with the Class C RVs. No diesels in the smaller ones. Not enough towing capacity in the larger ones (29 ft F450. I'm not looking at the Super C RVs. They're expensive!) 26 foot is the shortest with walk-around bed in the back. 29 foot has too much overhang. 23 foot you have to sleep in the cabover or pull out the sofa. Etc. Etc.
Yep, that's the problem when you have a 'hobby' you want to bring with you, especially one that takes up space or weighs a lot.
Toy haulers or custom trailers seem like one of the few options in those cases. Are you hauling more than two horses? If not maybe a custom trailer would be best. Matt Forslund, the NM MGNOC rep has one with large workspace in the back and living quarters in the front. I've seen similar for horses around here at the racetracks.
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Yep, that's the problem when you have a 'hobby' you want to bring with you, especially one that takes up space or weighs a lot.
Toy haulers or custom trailers seem like one of the few options in those cases. Are you hauling more than two horses? If not maybe a custom trailer would be best. Matt Forslund, the NM MGNOC rep has one with large workspace in the back and living quarters in the front. I've seen similar for horses around here at the racetracks.
We've currently got three horses, but usually only need to pull two at a time. Our trailer holds two. It's an all-aluminum Featherlite. A nice trailer.
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Animals/2011-September-3-5-Labor-Day/i-5CgfQPV/0/M/new%20Featherlite%201-M.jpg)
Living Quarters horse trailers are quite common in the horse world. Basically a long horse trailer with RV living quarters in the front and diagonally placed horse stalls in the back. Most of them are three or four horse capacity. Problem is they're heavy and require a 1-ton truck, if they're very large. My dad uses a Powerstroke F350 Superduty for pulling his trailers. This is the LQ Sundowner my dad has. My tent next to it. A used trailer like his Sundowner would probably run $25k. Cool thing about them is that when the horse dividers are removed, you can haul lots of other stuff. Like motorcycles!
(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Animals/2014-July-27-New-Mexico/i-RLNH7S6/0/M/DSCN3753-M.jpg)
Since I have a Suburban, I'd have to buy a truck in order to pull a gooseneck LQ trailer. A used $25k truck and a used $25k trailer are just not in the budget. That's why I've been considering the Class C idea to pull my Featherlite 2-horse trailer to events.
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From the responses here, it appears that we all have slightly different needs / visions for an RV. Whether it is camping, hauling toys and having a place to sleep, horses and the same, weekend trips with you own bedroom, long term traveling, etc. Some of the suggestions as to tow vehicles and/or RV's really don't fit my vision of what I want to do the next few years. The reason I am most interested in a tow behind and a all wheel drive SUV are:
1.) I plan to take 3+ weeks trips a couple of times a year at least. Generally I would travel to a destination, such as Yellowstone or Southern Utah, and set up base for a week at a NPS or other campground and explore things within a days drive. Hence the desire to have a nice comfortable car for the purpose. This leaves out Class C Motorhomes for me as I don't want to drive it around everywhere.
2.) On a typical trip, I would probably put as many miles on the tow vehicle alone as I would towing. I believe this use minimizes the cost penalty for going gas.
3.) I like to camp. I am not fond of sleeping on the ground anymore, nor do I relish the setting up and breaking camp with a tent. Parking the RV at a nice campground and enjoying the outdoors, albeit with a nice comfy camper sleep in or to escape inclement weather, appeals to me.
4.) I find that I am more social in my "old" age. My wife and I look forward to the prospect of interacting and getting to know our fellow campers across the country.
5.) It is not out of the question that we may purchase a piece of property in the N. GA mountains, or southern Colorado, or elsewhere and park the RV there for extended periods.
6.) It would be nice to have a vehicle to explore off road areas should we want.
7.) I have no desire to have a M/C with me on trips. I love riding alone and my wife occasionally likes to ride with me on a day or overnight trip, but it would not be the appropriate vehicle for my wife and I to explore with.
I believe either a pull behind TT or a fifth wheel best suits the way I think I will use it. Of course things may change after hitting the road awhile. Because of size, cost and the need for a pickup I prefer to concentrate on the pull behind now. As well I hope to pull it with an SUV. I know conventional wisdom seems to dictate otherwise, but sometimes "conventional" is not wise at all. I am pretty sure that one of the vehicles I suggested originally will serve well for my intended purpose, but that is why I asked if others here had experience with towing with any of them.
The Porsche Cayenne seems to be the most logical and capable vehicle of the lot. Plenty of power, superior suspension and brakes, and lower center of gravity than a 4 wheel drive 3/4 ton truck. The structural rigidity and superior suspension of the Porsche trumps most potential tow vehicles. I am not 100% convinced that I am heading in the right direction, but the prospective rewards compel me to explore this option thoroughly. I plan on deciding on the RV by summer but postponing the purchase until the end of the year. After determining the RV I plan to buy, I will move quickly on the tow vehicle, probably before summer is over.
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It's been done. Happy camping.
(http://www.macscheck.com/Images/10UberAirZepMoabUtah-8x5.jpg)
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238/porsche-cayenne-diesel-129706.html
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Sweet! Outside my pay grade, but sweet! A Dr. buddy went the Airstream route for many years. Bought used, upgraded a couple times. Finally bought new last year. So what does he do after his last long road trip? He buys a very nice, used, Airstream Class A.
I think he's spoiled now.
Makes me wonder if, over time, he'll down size back to a trailer. Class A's tend to limit you in ways that may be a PITA. Kinda like the problem with Class C's only worse.
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A post on another forum from someone who tows with a Cayenne. Below that, is an Airstream test video that among other things shows the stability of a Cayenne even when the TT loses control (no, not the Airstream).
"I've had several 1 ton and HD3/4 ton trucks. I've towed the exact same trailer with the exact same load with both the trucks and my CTT. The CTT is a better two rig!!
If you want to quote "physics" then let's look at them
The Cayenne was designed to handle like a sports car! Low center of gravity with much of the drivetrain mounted barely above the wheel center line! A suspension designed to be as stable as possible and have traction at the limits!
These all sound like good things when towing! Length doesn't create stability, good suspension and low center of gravity does! Most pickups have the drivetrain mounted far above the axles and a suspension from the wooden wagon days!
Let's tall about sway. The most stable towing platform is to mount the hitch point directly over the rear axle. Doing this totally eliminates the "lever arm" upon which sway is amplified. This is the distance from the rear axle to the hitch location. On most large pickups this length is 3-4 feet!! On the CTT its about 1.5-2 feet. So sway has less effect on a CTT than on a pickup running a normal rear mounted hitch.
Brakes! The Cayenne was designed to stop in the same distance as a 911 of the same era. Big brakes, lots of force, lots of cooling. Trailer brakes help, but I can tell your from hauling a 7700lb trailer behind my Dodge 2500 and the CTT with the same trailer brake controller installed on each. The Cayenne stops MUCH MUCH BETTER!!
I'd rather tow with my CTT any day for safety and stability over my HD trucks!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1422411861&feature=player_embedded&x-yt-cl=84924572&v=7cMg42sW6NU
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That's certainly a consideration. If I go that way, I would probably plan on towing something smaller and less expensive, like a Subaru.
This was our solution...
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/28/8386fdc635f8dccaa0a45ea9839ae8e1.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/28/0835e7c891c7eff604b44979b060c66c.jpg)
Class A toy hauler for the bikes, pulling our Edge. We spend 3-4 months a year in it down south and it's been working very well for us. We upgraded from a small class A towing a 14' enclosed trailer for the bikes because we wanted a vehicle as well.
It's a Ford F53 chassis with the V10 gas motor. The chassis works very well, handles great, way better than our older workhorse chassis.
The motor / tranny is good, the V10 is a revver so can be loud when pulling a steep pass but normal cruising at 60-65mph it's running at 2100-2400 and is great. My only niggle and it's just a "feature" of the gas motor is the lack of engine braking (exhaust brake) of a diesel on long down grades. The motor tranny can handle up to 6% grade easily but steeper and I need to use 1st gear which equates to about 25-28mph so we just sit in the truck lane with the semis with our flashers on. I never get brake fade because I don't use my brakes going downhill! But the F53 chassis has big brakes that stop the rig quickly if needed.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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and the dog gets to ride, too! ;-T
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If you are convinced a Cayenne is right, then go for it. I would not be. Despite the story listed and the canamrv website I would tend to not take their comments as the final say. Especially since the canam guy makes his living by selling trailers. What better way to make more sales than to be able to sell a trailer to anyone who walks in the door.
As I stated before, if I spent that much on a tow vehicle I would "love" it too ;) The comments listed about the Porsche are questionable to me, especially the one about wheelbase and low CG.
I would still strongly suggest, that if you want to tow with a smaller SUV then get an airstream. If you get one with flat sides you will regret it later.
Unfortunately you will only find out about stability or other issues once you have had it for a while. If you never encounter a strong crosswind, or those combinations of crosswind and trucks, or an avoidance maneuver, then you'll never see any difference between a stable platform and one that is not so stable. Brakes? The trailer stops itself 99% of the time so that is a wash too.
I wish you luck.
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We've currently got three horses, but usually only need to pull two at a time. Our trailer holds two. It's an all-aluminum Featherlite. A nice trailer.
Since I have a Suburban, I'd have to buy a truck in order to pull a gooseneck LQ trailer. A used $25k truck and a used $25k trailer are just not in the budget. That's why I've been considering the Class C idea to pull my Featherlite 2-horse trailer to events.
Yep, that's the problem :)
Class C would seem to solve the problem if you could get the towing capacity. What about one of the short Class A's? Ours was a 26ft. We towed a 4000lb pickup with it so don't think that should be an issue. Those have other driving issues (like sway in crosswinds) but also are usually pretty low priced in the used market.
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Short Class A's seem hard to find right now, and I'd want diesel. Lots of 35'-40' Class A's out there, and many for less than Class C's that I've been checking out.
The problem for me and a big Class A is that parking (when not being used) would be a problem, parking (at some places I go) would be a problem, and having to take it to a big truck dealer for driveline servicing would be a hassle.
A nice 7.3L Powerstroke F450 Class C would be my 1st choice.
Really just in the planning stage, though. Not anywhere near ready to pull the trigger on something like this.
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The canamrv fellow holds workshops at Airstream rally's on towing, setup and such. He is a great resource. But he seems to always be towing Airstreams with unconventional tow vehicles because the aerodynamic load is so much lower.
His shop will also modify stock factory hitches (e.g. on the Ford Flex he adds another mount point so the hitch can handle the extra torque from the distribution hitch). He has his own test track for testing tow vehicles with trailers before seeing the road and he has done thousands of installs. He backs up his talk with real world experience. He has a very deep data set. Shoot, he even set up a BMW Mini to a small Airstream.
So he offers up a choice for some folks that can't or won't go the traditional tow vehicles; it's always nice to have choices.
He also does an article on towing in RV Life. I've got a buddy that tows with his pickup over in Michigan. He can't buy what this guy is selling, meh, no big deal. I find it very interesting.
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We have some gals that tour the states in their big Class A's; One had a name brand "quality" unit that gave her no end of grief - mainly the slide out and jacks. In part of her travels she ended up going by the factory so she stopped in to have them fix what about six dealers could not. The other gal made some poor choices in roads and going where a Pinto would be challenged. Turning radius and height requirements can be a bitch with them.
Still, I look with a certain amount of envy when I see them on the road.
I'm starting to see some A's that are based on tractor trailer chassis. Seems to me the ride would be rougher, but on the other hand, I would think the whole drive train would be so understressed without a fully loaded trailer behind it that it would be an excellent choice. Anyone have experience with one of those?
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There are a few other figure you need to look at besides the "Towing capacity" of the vehicle. There is the load capacity, for the Cayenne it around 1,650#. Pretty good, but I suspect the advertising department rigged that number; you need to see if that is based on the dry weight, does it include passengers, fluids, accessories, etc. The biggest problem you are going to run into is that even though the capacity is 1,650, it depends on where you place it. Between the two axles, no real problem. Behind the axle and then you get into suspension, rotational forces. That is why the Cayenne (and many half ton pick ups with their comfortable suspensions) have such low pin weights. For the Cayenne it only has a pin weight of 617#. Your trailer needs to apply about 10-15% of its weight onto the pin to manage porpoising (up and down sway). Some of this weight can be mitigated with a weight distribution hitch, but only some of. Also a weight distribution hitch weighs about 100# itself. An airstream is no advantage here, it has to apply this same 10-15% pin weight.
Remember that 1,650# load capacity. As you add people and stuff to the vehicle you reduce the load capacity. When that load capacity goes down, along with it goes the allowed pin weight. I would estimate with 2 people, fluids, a full tank, and some personal stuff you pin weight capacity will be around 500#. Now add on a 100# weight distribution hitch directly on the hitch itself.
The trailer needs to apply 10-15% of weight onto the hitch for stability. If you reverse the equation: pin capacity/.125, (assuming 12.5% trailer weight on the hitch) that will give you how much total trailer weight you can have. If your effective allowed pin weight is 500#, that max trailer you can tow is 4,000#. That's a pretty small travel trailer.
Some of this depends on how much weight the hitch distributes, but remember even if it distributes weight to the front tires it's robbing your load capacity which still reduces you allowed pin weight. It's not a free ride. You get some of it back but not all of it.
And you can't ignore the CVWR listed on the inside door. This is the combined weight of both vehicles, you will run out of weight here long before you hit the advertised "towing capacity," just as you will with the pin weight.
Research towing calculators. Start plugging in figures for the vehicles you are looking at and the trailer size. This is why even 1/2 pickups are not a very ideal setup.
About the only way you can tow a small travel trailer (20-25 foot) safely with a cayenne is to look into hitches with their own wheels. I'm not sure if they ever made it to market or not, but the last time I researched all this they were about $3,000.
Towing a vehicle at it max capacity is one thing. Towing at max when you have a blowout, cross winds, head wind, up hills, down hills, on curves, being passed by a semi, emergency breaking, etc... that is where the extra capacity of the vehicle may save you or someone else's life.
F*c% the salesmen and fanboys and do your own research.
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and the dog gets to ride, too! ;-T
(http://faithcottage.smugmug.com/Animals/Ruby/i-rGZbTvt/0/L/IMG_4073-L.jpg)
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Short Class A's seem hard to find right now, and I'd want diesel. Lots of 35'-40' Class A's out there, and many for less than Class C's that I've been checking out.
The problem for me and a big Class A is that parking (when not being used) would be a problem, parking (at some places I go) would be a problem, and having to take it to a big truck dealer for driveline servicing would be a hassle.
A nice 7.3L Powerstroke F450 Class C would be my 1st choice.
Really just in the planning stage, though. Not anywhere near ready to pull the trigger on something like this.
That's why I like the gasser, oil changes are easier on the RV than on the Edge. Any Ford dealer could work on it if needed.
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Those "A's" that are on a tractor cab/chassis are really labeled a Class C. One of the little ironies in the RV world. Class A's are full body setups on a bare chassis.
We almost went with a large Class A for full time use. Really close as in finding one, lining up the money and ready to go back and buy it. In the next couple of days I was offered a new job for a lot more money. So I kept working :)
Yep, compromises.
Anytime someone tells me they will have to modify a hitch or frame to make it work, then it is oh so wrong. If it does not come with a hitch ready to go, or a hitch is not made for it, then that's a big red flag that you should get something else.
And, yes, I have 'modified' cars to tow trailers. I knew the limitations and I knew that I was beyond the limits of the car when I did that. I also knew that once I modified it no warranty work would be approved for it (yes, you can remove the hitch mods and lie to the dealer but I am not that kind of person). But, my needs were for one time use, or, for very limited towing situations, and I limited my speed on the roads to compensate for the conditions.
Yes, you can tow just about any trailer with just about any vehicle. My brother-in-law used to tow a 4000lb boat and trailer with his mini-van. Just weekend trips to the lake about an hour away. Five or six times a summer. Funny, after two years of that the transmission went bad. Wonder why. They are labeled 'unconventional' for a reason.
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"Super C" :BEER:
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If your effective allowed pin weight is 500#, that max trailer you can tow is 4,000#. That's a pretty small travel trailer.
This was a good write up and exercise, but you most me with these numbers.
If the effective max allowed pin weight was 500# wouldn't that allow for a trailer approaching 5000#?
What did I miss?
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If pin weight (bumper pull) allows 500lb then trailer weight could be up to 5000lb (4500lb would be on the wheels.)....IF the GCWR rating of the vehicle allows that much.
FWIW, if the vehicle is rated to tow a larger trailer then a Class III hitch should be an option from the dealer as well.
Vehicle weight capacities can be misleading but are usually based on the vehicle curb weight (wet) and the GVWR (usually determined by the axle capacities). The listed curb weight in a brochure may be a bit off as well since sometimes optional equipment is not included. You'd have to look at the door sticker on the vehicle you are using to determine the actual numbers. Some mfgs list carrying capacity in addition to a driver, others do not. Better to check the sticker and figure it yourself. Same thing goes for trailers for that matter.
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If you get the Porche I think toy haulers will be out of the quesiton. My Forest River Stealth WA2313 has an 1,100lb tongue weight empty.
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This was a good write up and exercise, but you most me with these numbers.
If the effective max allowed pin weight was 500# wouldn't that allow for a trailer approaching 5000#?
What did I miss?
I used 12.5%. If you used 10%, then it would be 5,000#. The general rule is 10 to 15% of total trailer weight, which can be hard to measure without a scale. There are lot's of variables like how well you load the trailer to not inadvertently add more weight than intended to the pin. In the end there are some good calculators out there that take as many of these variables into consideration as possible. Wheel base is usually part of the equation too.
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When I posed the question, I was trying find others who have used these SUV's to tow travel trailers or similar loads. I was hoping someone here actually had experience doing so. I appreciate the opinions of all that respond. In brief searches the past few days, I have found about a dozen people who have towed extensively with the Cayenne or Touareg. In all those cases, the experience was reported as positive, glowing even. So far most of the people who have never tried say it shouldn't be done while those who have endorse it heartily. Hmmmm….
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This site isn't exactly running over with Porsche driving RV enthusiasts. More Likely To Get 1st Hand Experiences Of Wal-Mart tents and 20 year old motorcycles. The uppity d00ds have Kwik Kamp RVs
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Like I said, if you spend that kind of money on a tow vehicle, then by and large you will love it, regardless. And write glowing reports. You may like it too.
Same for folks who choose to tow long bumper pulls. There are many who love them and have many trouble free miles.
I've seen a few of them rolled over on the side of a hill and watched them on windy highways. I've also towed bumper trailers with a minivan. It was not fun, even with a shorter trailer.