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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: guzzista on January 27, 2015, 10:36:35 AM

Title: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: guzzista on January 27, 2015, 10:36:35 AM
Maybe y'all have seen this already, but here it goes anyway http://www.hmb-guzzi.de/shop/product_info.php?info=p7710_eckigen-motor-rundfraesen.html&XTCsid=2f67de9baee5017c778a81e19f990c55 ...., almost forgot.... let the snapping of the suspenders begin
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 27, 2015, 10:43:34 AM
Was thinking of doing something similar to the Cal II engine that's going into my '72 Ambo sidecar tug. Already have the rocker cover adapters.
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: rodekyll on January 27, 2015, 12:21:50 PM
So for a mere $700 you can have an engine cosmetically altered to cool less efficiently and also not look right as either a square or round fin . . . ? 


POLL:

O  I'm excited

O  What's the point?

O  What's a euro?
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 27, 2015, 12:37:59 PM
So for a mere $700 you can have an engine cosmetically altered to cool less efficiently and also not look right as either a square or round fin . . . ? 


POLL:

O  I'm excited

O  What's the point?

O  What's a euro?

Well, for me, it's an attempt at making the engine less ugly.  ~; Rounding off a few edges isn't going to significantly reduce cooling efficiency, there's still more fin area than a round-fin engine. Won't cost me a thing, just an hour or so of time.
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: rodekyll on January 27, 2015, 12:54:34 PM
Oh, if a guy's going to chuck them up on a potter's wheel and hold an angle grinder to the fins as they go 'round I can see it -- no cost and gets attention.  It would probably go well on a hard-tail bob job.  It's paying the cost of new jugs to do counterproductive cosmetic aberrations to an old set that makes me go hmmmmmm.  The irony (find yourself a pun, if it's there) is that the only folks who would notice the mod are the ones you wouldn't want noticing.


Back when powdercoating was a new thing, a shop in my area was doing 'fuzzy frames'.  Basically, a long grain powder was applied and left a coating that looked and felt like velvet.  I had a BSA plunger frame done in fuzzy and proudly assembled the bike around it.  My brother dropped by, fingered a frame tube and asked "You PAID for this?  Money?"
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: crafty on January 27, 2015, 01:36:19 PM
While it is hardly unanimous, there are many of us who feel the squared off styling that started with the LM 3 was unfortunate and only got worse as the years went by. There are only so many high performance round head engines to go around at ever increasing prices. If an owner wants to create his dream bike and soften the corners of his cylinders and heads and pop on a pair of round head valve covers I say go for it. A  few of the Caffe Machine bikes got this treatment and it looks great-more graceful (to my eyes) than a square head and a bit more brutal than a round head.
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: bigbikerrick on January 27, 2015, 01:43:12 PM
Charlie, are you able to do the rounding of the fins yourself? I think its a cool thing, makes for a much more attractive looking engine, and in a loop frame bike, it will just look "right" . It actually reminds me of the way the cylinders and heads look on the new V 7 smallblocks.  Looking forward to seeing pics of the new Ambo, with that mod done to it.
Rick.
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: rboe on January 27, 2015, 01:52:27 PM
I'd consider it. Not much of a fan of the old squared off cylinders. I bought a Griso instead. :)

But the results presented look good though.
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: Tobit on January 27, 2015, 02:06:45 PM
Industrial art.  I like it.  But then, I like CZs with half their fins shaved completely off.

(http://www.vintageworksbikes.com/sitebuilder/images/IMG_6586-850x643.jpg)
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 27, 2015, 03:53:51 PM
Charlie, are you able to do the rounding of the fins yourself? I think its a cool thing, makes for a much more attractive looking engine, and in a loop frame bike, it will just look "right" . It actually reminds me of the way the cylinders and heads look on the new V 7 smallblocks.  Looking forward to seeing pics of the new Ambo, with that mod done to it.
Rick.

I should be able to. If not, I'll just forget it. Mine probably won't be quite as "rounded off" as the ones shown on HMB. Just a little to smooth the angles.

I wasn't even planning to use the Cal II engine, but a low-mileage one "fell in my lap" for $200.
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: pebra on January 28, 2015, 01:48:15 PM
As stated in a similar context earlier I might be vain enough for this cosmetic surgery.
There's a lot of €€€ involved though....   :o
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: rocker59 on January 28, 2015, 02:14:11 PM
Maybe y'all have seen this already, but here it goes anyway http://www.hmb-guzzi.de/shop/product_info.php?info=p7710_eckigen-motor-rundfraesen.html&XTCsid=2f67de9baee5017c778a81e19f990c55 ...., almost forgot.... let the snapping of the suspenders begin

I kind of like it...    :BEER:
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: Mark West on January 28, 2015, 02:29:45 PM
I think a little bit of rounding looks good.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-VE98GzlqXUk/VMlEF6mphaI/AAAAAAAACjQ/KshXuF7cKhA/w941-h706-no/P1010803.JPG)
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: bigbikerrick on January 28, 2015, 02:55:57 PM
I think a little bit of rounding looks good.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-VE98GzlqXUk/VMlEF6mphaI/AAAAAAAACjQ/KshXuF7cKhA/w941-h706-no/P1010803.JPG)
That looks fantastic IMHO. "softening" the square parts is all thats needed.
Rick.
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: bigbikerrick on January 28, 2015, 03:04:06 PM
I should be able to. If not, I'll just forget it. Mine probably won't be quite as "rounded off" as the ones shown on HMB. Just a little to smooth the angles.

I wasn't even planning to use the Cal II engine, but a low-mileage one "fell in my lap" for $200.

Charlie, I think a loop tug with a "rounded" 1000cc engine wil be awesome! Im looking forward to seeing how that project turns out. :pop

what method, do you plan to use to round the fins?  rodekyll's potter wheel method sound funny, and Im sure he was just joking, but in the right hands, with a sufficiently skilled "artisan" I guess it could be done, but would require tons of patience, and careful removal of alloy.

Hows about taking it to "the next level" and do those "diamond cut" fins like on the high end choppers? ;D

Im surprised one of the customizers in europe has not done this to a Guzzi  already!
Rick.

Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: Tobit on January 28, 2015, 03:31:58 PM
I think a little bit of rounding looks good.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-VE98GzlqXUk/VMlEF6mphaI/AAAAAAAACjQ/KshXuF7cKhA/w941-h706-no/P1010803.JPG)

Very nice.   ;-T
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: rodekyll on January 28, 2015, 03:40:36 PM
Yes, I was trying for a funny with the potter's wheel idea, but when you think about it, if a guy got it centered to the fins (as opposed to the center of the spigot) spinning it against a grinding wheel might work.

I'm not anti-fin rounding.  To me it's a personal style detail, and I'm all about whittling on stuff to make it look the way I want it to.  My objection was to spending the money they're asking for the mod.  I'm not sure of the current exchange rate, but I ballpark the euro at twice the dollar.  Add round-way shipping across the pond and you've spent as much as a new kit.  IMO, that's way out of range for purely cosmetic surgery.
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: Pancake on January 28, 2015, 04:15:50 PM
The Euro and Dollar are quite close in value.

I put round head rockers T3 style on my square fin engine and I love the look of it, I will get round to doing the fins some day. The roundness of the rockers is also a lot less of a pain to hit, or even rub, with your knees.

I'd been wondering how to do this and what I'd thought would be to make a former out of ply and use this as a marking guide on each successive fin. Each fin would be crudely cut with an angle grinder and trimmed with a Dremel. Once they are all done  the whole lot can be smoothed with a sander.

It wouldn't be too hard to do that reasonably well.
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: Mark West on January 28, 2015, 04:43:41 PM
Here is a detail shot of the rounded heads on the cafe racer above. The builder is John Willet in the UK. If you do a search on Moto Nero, you can find his blog.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_ck49OCYOzU/Up8b8gotJiI/AAAAAAAACUk/BNcrnxUFGdM/s1600/P1040891.JPG)
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: charlie b on January 28, 2015, 05:41:36 PM
I hate to say it but I kinda like it too.  I also like the black engine.  When I over haul the bike I may have to do both.
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: redrider90 on January 28, 2015, 06:30:49 PM
So for a mere $700 you can have an engine cosmetically altered to cool less efficiently and also not look right as either a square or round fin . . . ? 


POLL:

O  I'm excited

O  What's the point?

O  What's a euro?


I go for what's the point unless you really want a high HP square fine engine that other wise will not fit in the frame I see this as a waste of money. I also think the looks are mediocre.
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: krglorioso on January 28, 2015, 10:43:18 PM
I smell a deal in the offing!  I want to add fins to the rear fenders of my 2004 Buick LeSabre so it looks like the early '60s models.  If any of you who want to mill fins from your square heads (on your bikes, that is) please contact me.

Ralph
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: Turin on January 28, 2015, 11:05:26 PM
Still doesn't look like a round head. I could take it or leave it.
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: brightonguzzi on January 29, 2015, 11:10:42 AM
My LMV engine has been rounded off, I think it looks much nicer.

I have some old round rocker covers and adapter plate to go on, just haven't gotten around to it yet.

Excuse the crappy photo!

(http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/zz194/theperilsarecoming/DSCF1686.jpg) (http://s827.photobucket.com/user/theperilsarecoming/media/DSCF1686.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: Late to the party on January 29, 2015, 11:27:33 AM
Okay, so we've got the usual division of opinions:

(1) Those who like idea, and will tell you why. (2) Those who don't like the idea, and who will tell you why it sucks.

Attention those who don't like the idea: Thank you for your opinion. You're excused.

Those who DO like the idea of softening the fins on a square-fin big block: How about we focus on how to trim the fins such that (a) we achieve the desired aesthetic, without (b) diminishing the cooling effect or (c) breaking anything expensive.

You have my undivided attention. Go ahead.

Lateness.
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: rocker59 on January 29, 2015, 11:48:20 AM
Here is a detail shot of the rounded heads on the cafe racer above. The builder is John Willet in the UK. If you do a search on Moto Nero, you can find his blog.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_ck49OCYOzU/Up8b8gotJiI/AAAAAAAACUk/BNcrnxUFGdM/s1600/P1040891.JPG)

I'll bet a "fin job" like that would look good with the rounded, organic lines of my Sport 1100 !!

The guards kind of mask the angled cut of the fins.  I've never really liked the angled cut the fins have.

(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Miscellaneous-bike-photos/i-D2s3mDw/0/M/DSCN3435-M.jpg)

Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: Late to the party on January 29, 2015, 12:06:14 PM
I'll bet a "fin job" like that would look good with the rounded, organic lines of my Sport 1100 !!

The guards kind of mask the angled cut of the fins.  I've never really liked the angled cut the fins have.

(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Miscellaneous-bike-photos/i-D2s3mDw/0/M/DSCN3435-M.jpg)



A softening of the fins would, as you noted, look really nice.

Wonder if a 12" bench mount disk sander, with the work table adjusted to approximate the angle of the fins, would do the job?
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: Dean Rose on January 29, 2015, 12:59:20 PM
I would think that a EFI EV engine with the rounded fins and the round head valve covers in an early Tonti frame would be the CAT's Pajamas.

If I had the funds I'd get someone to do that for me.


Dean
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: Tom on January 29, 2015, 01:20:23 PM
Interesting discussion.   ;D  When I like round fins.  I take out the hack.  ;-T  I like square fins.  I take out the other bike.  My preference is the rounded look though.  :-*
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: redrider90 on January 29, 2015, 02:12:51 PM
I'll bet a "fin job" like that would look good with the rounded, organic lines of my Sport 1100 !!

The guards kind of mask the angled cut of the fins.  I've never really liked the angled cut the fins have.

(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Miscellaneous-bike-photos/i-D2s3mDw/0/M/DSCN3435-M.jpg)





Photo shop it first and see how it looks. I think the lines on the "square engine" are visually appealing on all Tonti frame Guzzis not to mention all the lines on the engine and tranny also fit with the lines on the modern big block Tonti. 
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: kckershovel on January 29, 2015, 02:23:25 PM
Looks like I'm in the market for a pre 2001ish squarefin engine. 
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: Murray on January 29, 2015, 06:14:46 PM
I'll bet a "fin job" like that would look good with the rounded, organic lines of my Sport 1100 !!


Reduce the cooling on one of the highest output examples of the two valve motor from the factory ever built? Dunno about you but get caught in traffic on a warmish day (36 degrees C plus) and mine starts leaning out pretty quick.
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: rocker59 on January 29, 2015, 07:41:05 PM
Reduce the cooling on one of the highest output examples of the two valve motor from the factory ever built? Dunno about you but get caught in traffic on a warmish day (36 degrees C plus) and mine starts leaning out pretty quick.

97.5 °F day?  Stuck in traffic?  Not this cowboy. 

You might find me in the pool like this  (http://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/jkam.gif)

Or, more likely indoors, enjoying the air conditioner and thinking how glad I am that I'm not stuck in traffic on a motorcycle!

Other than the afternoon work commute, I really don't ever have to deal with traffic.  One of the benefits of living in flyover country!

Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: ratguzzi on January 29, 2015, 07:45:31 PM
Huey Lewis and the News. "It's hip to be square" !!
JB
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: Dean Rose on January 29, 2015, 10:14:25 PM
Reduce the cooling on one of the highest output examples of the two valve motor from the factory ever built? Dunno about you but get caught in traffic on a warmish day (36 degrees C plus) and mine starts leaning out pretty quick.

I just don't see how taking off that little bit to Round them off is going to effect cooling that much.

Dean
Title: Re:
Post by: T in NC on February 01, 2015, 03:08:17 PM
I thought Pete said Guzzi's were over cooled anyway.
Title: Re:
Post by: Dean Rose on February 02, 2015, 07:32:56 AM
I thought Pete said Guzzi's were over cooled anyway.

 ;-T


Dean
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: blackcat on February 02, 2015, 07:43:42 AM
Interesting discussion.   ;D  When I like round fins.  I take out the hack.  ;-T  I like square fins.  I take out the other bike.  My preference is the rounded look though.  :-*

Yeah, easier to just ride a round fin bike than making some change to a square fin bike. But, to each their own.

Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: Matt Story on February 02, 2015, 09:23:19 AM
I have to say that I like the look of the rounded fins over the later square design.  It's not an issue for me since my 'luddite' bike (other thread) from the round era is already has the preferred aesthetic.

Lets say you have a square fin, and you want to make it 'rounder'.  It really is a matter of degree.  I personally like the examples that are less extreme in the material removal.

You could certainly go at your machine with an air grinder to get the job done.  That would be a pretty tedious project and difficult to be consistent.  Also, aluminum does not lend itself to grinding very well.  You end up consuming lots of loaded wheels/disc in the process.  I think the way to got is to machine the fins in a cnc mill.  In the process of developing your cut program, you might as well make a model of the end result, and you get to evaluate the model for how extreme you want to round things.  From there on, you can duplicate your work very easily.  The trick is having access to the technology with the key being the 3d modeling software.  The CNC machining sources are abundant.  HMB-Guzzi is certainly following a similar process.

How about this aesthetic?  First powder coat your heads/jugs.  Then CNC all the edges to bare aluminum?

Matt
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: drums4money on February 02, 2015, 06:29:07 PM
I think a little bit of rounding looks good.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-VE98GzlqXUk/VMlEF6mphaI/AAAAAAAACjQ/KshXuF7cKhA/w941-h706-no/P1010803.JPG)

Yowza!
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: mach1mustang351 on February 03, 2015, 11:21:37 PM
I like it.  If I had a newer engine in old bike situation I would do it for sure.
Title: Re: Square motor makover, rounding of the fins?
Post by: Petrus Rocks on February 04, 2015, 07:39:11 AM
I like the contrasting color idea but powdercoating is an insulator.  Nice for a show bike.  Looking at the examples  shown, a large belt sander, coarse to finer belts, then dremel or bead blast the edges.  Use a flat edge to  keep the fins consistent.