Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xlratr on January 28, 2015, 07:40:14 AM
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ZDDP is a proven and cost effective anti- wear agent that is added to motor oils. Many people say that cams with flat tappets wear out quicker if you don’t have at least a ZDDP content of 1,000ppm (parts per million), and that for this type of engine design, the higher the ZDDP content the better, up to a level of around 1,800, after which it starts to have a corrosive effect.
The maximum ZDDP levels allowed in the past were higher than they are today. The reason for that are more stringent life expectancy requirements for catalytic converters (ZDDP will damage them eventually). The API specification is I believe as follows:
API Year ZDDP
SH 1996 1,200
SJ & SL 2001-04 1,000
SM 2005 800
SN 2010 800
In other words, unless it has alternative anti wear additives (and whether they are there or not seems to be a cause for heated discussion), a modern oil may not give enough protection for flat tappet engines.
However, there seem to be exceptions to the rules, and the API SM Limit mentioned above does not apply to more “exotic” oils. The higher the viscosity, the more ZDDP content seems to be allowed as they are not considered to be for normal automobile applications. It’s not so easy to find ZDDP specifications on line, and the manufacturers change the levels without publishing that information, but I have read reports on the ENI 10w60 being tested at over 1,200ppm. That’s reassuring, and specifying this high viscosity oil may be one way for Moto Guzzi to make sure our engines are getting enough ZDDP protection. So as far as my Stelvio is concerned, I have no cause to be worried (yet!).
But I also have a T3, and over the past few years I’ve been running it with Castrol Classic 20w50 which is advertised as being suitable for traditional motor designs, having a high protective additive content. But out of curiosity I looked for some spec on this oil, and it seems to have only 800ppm. I don't know if there is an alternative protection in there or not. Obviously the T3 isn’t a high performance engine, and I don’t know how high the tappet pressures are, but I now wonder if I should change the oil I use.
After all that, here my two questions:
1) What are the pros & cons of using the ENI (AGIP) 10w60 oil in the T3?
2) Does anyone use the Valvoline VR1 20w50 mineral oil in their old big blocks? This is classified as a “Racing Oil” which seems to allow them to get around the ZDDP Limits and the oil apparently has 1200ppm. Valvoline does say that it’s OK for street use though, but I wonder what oil change intervals would be appropriate.
Sorry for an oil thread, but it is still winter!
John
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As I understand it, the VR1 racing oils don't have the additive packages (ie detergents) for multi thousand mile change intervals as it's designed for basically a race at a time.
What I do know is safe are motorcycle specific oils. Be they syn or dino. Primarily because of combined use as a trans lube as well in most bikes. They do have more than sufficient ZDDP levels.
If you stick with MC specific 20w50 oils you can hardly go wrong.
Now there are some diesel oils that are M rated for bikes. I believe the Rotella syn 5w40 diesel oil. I tried that for a few changes but went back to MC specific 20w50 oil. The motors just ran quieter with the heavier weight oil down in the hot Florida climate.
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As I understand it, the VR1 racing oils don't have the additive packages (ie detergents) for multi thousand mile change intervals as it's designed for basically a race at a time.
What I do know is safe are motorcycle specific oils. Be they syn or dino. Primarily because of combined use as a trans lube as well in most bikes. They do have more than sufficient ZDDP levels.
If you stick with MC specific 20w50 oils you can hardly go wrong.
Now there are some diesel oils that are M rated for bikes. I believe the Rotella syn 5w40 diesel oil. I tried that for a few changes but went back to MC specific 20w50 oil. The motors just ran quieter with the heavier weight oil down in the hot Florida climate.
Thanks for the reply. I believe there are different versions of the VR1, the pure racing one having no detergents, and a street suitable one with a detergent package.
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As I understand it, the VR1 racing oils don't have the additive packages (ie detergents) for multi thousand mile change intervals as it's designed for basically a race at a time.
What I do know is safe are motorcycle specific oils. Be they syn or dino. Primarily because of combined use as a trans lube as well in most bikes. They do have more than sufficient ZDDP levels.
If you stick with MC specific 20w50 oils you can hardly go wrong.
Now there are some diesel oils that are M rated for bikes. I believe the Rotella syn 5w40 diesel oil. I tried that for a few changes but went back to MC specific 20w50 oil. The motors just ran quieter with the heavier weight oil down in the hot Florida climate.
Isn't a MC specific oil formulated based on the presence of a wet clutch? That's my reason for not making that rating the top consideration when oil shopping for my Guzzi.
:BEER:
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I just toss a bit of this in ever oil change. It may not do a thing, but I feel good about trying to do something. :BEER:
(http://zddplus.labecon.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/zddplus-product.png)
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I use the VR1 in my Lario. I believe in ZDDP.
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My experience with Castrol. I used 20w-50 GTX for about 30 years in my T3 until a couple of cam followers went tits up twice in a two year period. The camshaft is fine, so something was changed, be it zddp, anti corrosive additives or what ever. Rotella T 15w-40 in use now for about 6 years with no problem.
Granted, since 1977, a lot of changes have taken place be it with formulations, corporate owners, bottlers, quality control variations. About the only thing unchanged is the name on the bottle.
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I use vr1 in everything that does not have a cat. Brad Penn oil is great when you can find it or have the for thought to order online.
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My experience with Castrol. I used 15w-50 GTX for about 30 years in my T3 until a couple of cam followers went tits up twice in a two year period. The camshaft is fine, so something was changed, be it zddp, anti corrosive additives or what ever. Rotella T 15w-40 in use now for about 6 years with no problem.
Granted, since 1977, a lot of changes have taken place be it with formulations, corporate owners, bottlers, quality control variations. About the only thing unchanged is the name on the bottle.
I think that's exactly the point. The oil you buy now may not be the same as it was a few years back even if the name is the same. I also read about the Rotella, but it's not available here (at least not under that name), and the ZDDP limits for Diesel Oil will come down in the future too.
I've decided not to use the AGIP 10w60 because even though the ZDDP content seems to be good and it's fine in the Stelvio, I have reservations about using the synthetic stuff in the old T3.
I would like to try the VR1, but I can't be sure about getting the right version (i.e. with detergents).
So I just ordered 6 liters of this stuff: Motul Classic 20w50 (Zinc: 1460 ppm / Phosphor: 1330 ppm). It's a name I can trust and the spec looks OK for the T3 (API SF)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/28/25a0a375c09acb170b5f4feee20e8b66.jpg)
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Isn't a MC specific oil formulated based on the presence of a wet clutch? That's my reason for not making that rating the top consideration when oil shopping for my Guzzi.
:BEER:
Don't understand why this would concern you? What will kill a wet clutch are some of those 'special' additives they put in some oils, that they don't do on MC oils. But your bike, your choice.
My HD, Ducati, Guzzi, Triumphs, Norton all run clutches dry (or relatively dry) and the MC oils work just fine for me and thousands of others in these bikes. Oil viscosity is the most important aspect.
That and taking care in resurecting an old bike that may not have run detergent oils way back when, then sticking a detergent oil in it now. That can be bad. But such should not be the case if the bike has been used regularly.
Old bikes like the Loopers, and old brit bikes, with no oil filters ran non-detergent oils. Those oils were not designed to keep the dirt in suspension to be filtered out. They allowed the 'stuff' to settle out better, thus their use of sludge traps etc. and the frequent teardown and cleaning of motors. Once an old motor is brought back to life and cleaned up, best thing to do is add a filter and use the modern oils IMO. I've added filters to all my old bikes that can easily be adapted.
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Don't understand why this would concern you? What will kill a wet clutch are some of those 'special' additives they put in some oils, that they don't do on MC oils. But your bike, your choice.
I'm saying it doesn't concern me. I use Rotella T6 in my EV because it has the factory recommended 5W40 viscosity, it has a lot of zinc, is cheap, and easy to find. That it also meets JASO MA is nice but not really a concern.
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"Many people say .... "
Yes. Quite. After I get done yawning I'll go back to putting good quality modern oil in my bike.
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Wonder how many pages this oil thread will generate?
:pop
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I use vr1 in everything that does not have a cat. Brad Penn oil is great when you can find it or have the for thought to order online.
+1. Brad Penn used in many pre-95 Porsches, as is VR-1. Both have enough ZDDP.
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Brad Penn is not available here in Germany.
An eBay search shows me "The tree of life" with Brad Pitt and Sean Penn, but no oil! :-)
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https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.ashx
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Brad Penn is not available here in Germany.
An eBay search shows me "The tree of life" with Brad Pitt and Sean Penn, but no oil! :-)
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Can you order off of Amazon?
http://www.amazon.com/s?rh=n%3A15719391%2Cp_4%3ABrad+Penn+Oil
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Theoretically yes, but flying oil over the Atlantic and then paying duty on it probably won't be a viable proposition.
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https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.ashx
Yes, I also researched the Mobil 1 v Twin, but that is also not available here.
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Y'know, some o' you suspender-snappers have been hanging around here since the day the dinosaurs gave up the goo that we now run in our iron horses. The rest of us FNGs are still playing catch up; learning about ZDDP, unobtanium and all the other garbage that goes into the making of Guzzi-grade snake oil.
I know oil threads are tedious. Still, how about a little slack?
Lateness.
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Y'know, some o' you suspender-snappers have been hanging around here since the day the dinosaurs gave up the goo that we now run in our iron horses. The rest of us FNGs are still playing catch up; learning about ZDDP, unobtanium and all the other garbage that goes into the making of Guzzi-grade snake oil.
I know oil threads are tedious. Still, how about a little slack?
Lateness.
Search this site for Yak Fat and you will have all the slack you need.
;D
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Y'know, some o' you suspender-snappers have been hanging around here since the day the dinosaurs gave up the goo that we now run in our iron horses. The rest of us FNGs are still playing catch up; learning about ZDDP, unobtanium and all the other garbage that goes into the making of Guzzi-grade snake oil.
I know oil threads are tedious. Still, how about a little slack?
Lateness.
Ain't nobody stoppin' you from talking about oil all day and all night, and stiff-leggin' around each other and saying "Oh yeah? Well, you're another!" and claiming that other people are idiots and re-used chainsaw oil is just as good as anything else, and claiming that your engine will blow sky-high if you don't use Amsoil which I have for sale at only $20 a demi-semi-liter, and talking about this study and that study and the other study and Bob the Oil Man and how you work for an oil refinery and I'll tell YOU about oil, mate, and all that.
No more harm in folks talking all that stuff over for the 300th time than there is in me saying that it's all been done 300 times ..... ;-T
Lannis
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Yes, I also researched the Mobil 1 v Twin, but that is also not available here.
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Is is feasible for somebody in the USA to ship you a case of VR1 or some other brand of you choice? I have not shipped internationally so I don't know what is involved or the cost.
Or why not call Stein Dinse and see what Euro oil they recommend?
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The shipper could open and close all the containers and then we can call it used. That might get you out of a few fee's. Did you say you could not get VR1? I have a list of oil and there ZDDP content somewhere. If you are looking for recommendations it might help to know what you have available. What do the guys with the old aircooled Porsche's use? What ever they use is probably the best thing available to you.
Also, I thought this oil thread has been nice and tame so far. I like the this is what I use take it or leave it style over the arguing about the uniformity of molecule size between synthetic and non syn. That I have had enough of.
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Ain't nobody stoppin' you from talking about oil all day and all night, and stiff-leggin' around each other and saying "Oh yeah? Well, you're another!" and claiming that other people are idiots and re-used chainsaw oil is just as good as anything else, and claiming that your engine will blow sky-high if you don't use Amsoil which I have for sale at only $20 a demi-semi-liter, and talking about this study and that study and the other study and Bob the Oil Man and how you work for an oil refinery and I'll tell YOU about oil, mate, and all that.
No more harm in folks talking all that stuff over for the 300th time than there is in me saying that it's all been done 300 times ..... ;-T
Lannis
With all due respect, I don't recall "stiff leggin'" anybody and I don't see any one else doing that either. I don't have any radical position on oil, and all I'm saying is that many people believe that reduced ZDDP is a problem for some older engines (maybe even some newer engines with 8vs and flat tappets!! :-)). I don't know! But isn't that what forums like this are for? So that gear heads can discuss what makes their machines run better? I don't believe there have been so many threads on zddp, but if I have dredged up something that's been discussed 300 times before, well....the good thing about tedious threads is that you don't need to read em! ;-).
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With all due respect, I don't recall "stiff leggin'" anybody and I don't see any one else doing that either.
It's the ultimate fate of every oil thread in the history of Wild Guzzi. None of them end well. For some reason, people have an enormous passion about it, and want to get their licks in.
It's why the term "oil thread" has the connotation that it does.
But go ahead. I'm just commenting, like everyone else. No harm in that.
If you like, you can type "ZDDP" into the forum search box. You'll get about 200 hits .... we BTDT quite a bit.
Lannis
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Thanks for the positive/constructive comments about shipping the oil from the States. I can actually get VR1 here, it would just be a question of making sure I get the version with detergents. Seems not so easy to tell them apart on the web!
I especially like the creative idea about having the shipper opening the box and declaring it as used. I wonder what the German customs would think about someone air freighting used engine oil!! :-). But it's a nice idea, and thanks for the suggestion. I think the killer aspect would be the actual freight cost.
On the subject of what drivers of older Porsches use, I read that the Motul 15w50 (API SH) is quite popular here. I've decided to try the Motul 20w50 version which has higher zddp. It has around 1400ppm vs. the 800ppm of the Castro Classic oil I have been using. I guess that can't be a bad thing. :-)
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But go ahead. I'm just commenting, like everyone else.
Actually, NOT like everyone else ... ;-)
Sorry, couldn't resist!
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I would be comfortable with 1400ppm. I use the VR1 in the silver bottle. We get it for about 4 dollars a Qt at the neighborhood parts store. The low detergent oil has NOT FOR STREET USE written big and clear on it. I have not seen that for sale at my local parts store. The blue bottle is there synthetic and probably cost more. I have no experience with it.
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I would be comfortable with 1400ppm. I use the VR1 in the silver bottle. We get it for about 4 dollars a Qt at the neighborhood parts store. The low detergent oil has NOT FOR STREET USE written big and clear on it. I have not seen that for sale at my local parts store. The blue bottle is there synthetic and probably cost more. I have no experience with it.
That's good, solid information.
Thanks, Kickershovel.
Lateness.
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Vr1: Good for flat tappet cams, available everywhere, Less than 5 dollars a Qt. Seems like a Guzzi natural. It just meets all my needs, piece of mind, ease of procurement and not to expensive.
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I would be comfortable with 1400ppm. I use the VR1 in the silver bottle. We get it for about 4 dollars a Qt at the neighborhood parts store. The low detergent oil has NOT FOR STREET USE written big and clear on it. I have not seen that for sale at my local parts store. The blue bottle is there synthetic and probably cost more. I have no experience with it.
The VR1 I get at Advance Auto, Auto Zone or Napa is part # VV211and has "Extreme Race Level Protection" on the front label. That ought to be good enough for anybody ;-T
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Yes, I also researched the Mobil 1 v Twin, but that is also not available here.
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http://www.mobil1racingstore.com/mo115sin.html
http://tinyurl.com/qado67w
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http://www.mobil1racingstore.com/mo115sin.html
http://tinyurl.com/qado67w
Thanks for researching that, but the first site is a US one..
There are many Mobil 1 oils available in Europe, but not the Mobil 1 V-Twin formula. Or at least I can't find it. That's the one with the high ZDDP.
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Thanks for researching that, but the first site is a US one..
There are many Mobil 1 oils available in Europe, but not the Mobil 1 V-Twin formula. Or at least I can't find it. That's the one with the high ZDDP.
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True but the 15-50 available in Europe has 1300 ppm. Same a VRI.
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True but the 15-50 available in Europe has 1300 ppm. Same a VRI.
Now that IS good to know! Thanks very much for that information. :-)
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On the VR-1 oil, based on experience, I sold my hot rod 37 Chevy truck 10 years ago. I has a much modified 302 GMC inline 6 engine with a performance flat tappet cam. The engine has only seen VR-1, and is now closing in on 100,000 miles. My friend who owns it now says the engine still runs excellent is clean inside.....
From lubrication engineers ; Never add anything to motor oil. It's a complex package of ingredients and additives may destabilize the oil. Buy the oil with the additive package built in.
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On the VR-1 oil, based on experience, I sold my hot rod 37 Chevy truck 10 years ago. I has a much modified 302 GMC inline 6 engine with a performance flat tappet cam. The engine has only seen VR-1, and is now closing in on 100,000 miles. My friend who owns it now says the engine still runs excellent is clean inside.....
From lubrication engineers ; Never add anything to motor oil. It's a complex package of ingredients and additives may destabilize the oil. Buy the oil with the additive package built in.
Thanks, that's good information. As Kickershovel said, VR1 seems like a natural choice for the older Guzzi engines. In the US, the detergent and non detergent versions are packaged and marked differently so you know which version it is. Here it's in a black container and just called "VR1 Racing", so I wasn't 100% sure which version it is. But it does have the API SL rating, so it must have the detergent package and be good for normal service intervals.
I've gone with the Motul this time, but I'll probably try the VR1 in the future. Thanks again.
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Vr1: Good for flat tappet cams, available everywhere, Less than 5 dollars a Qt. Seems like a Guzzi natural. It just meets all my needs, piece of mind, ease of procurement and not to expensive.
And, as I mentioned earlier, used by many air cooled Posche owners with success. Brad Penn is just as good, but much harder to get. Another popular one is the Shell Rotella for diesel engines. All popular, with adequate ZDDP for air cooled engines.
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I see all kinds of ads in the Brit classic bike mags about oils for these old bikes. I can't believe you cant get some real good oil a lot closer than the US.
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Brad Penn and VR-1 are the same price around here...About 6- 7 bucks a quart. About Diesel oil, much of it now has lowered ZDDP...And according to the Joe Gibbs oil website, The Diesel oil ZDDP is a whole different formula designed for compression ignition engines and shouldn't be relied on for high speed spark ignition engines.
Of note; all those millions of older beat up Jeep Cherokees,Grand Cherokees and Jeep Wranglers have a flat tappet 4.0 inline 6 engine. These engine are noted for very long life and I bet not 5 percent of owners give a crap what kind of oil goes in the crankcase. This all depends on valve spring pressure, cam design etc.
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The Cal2 owners manual says the oil to use is Agip 4T Super Racing oil, 20W/50. So I've been using Valvoline VR1 since '82 in all my Guzzis. I haven't had a cam/tappet failure since. However I don't have anything newer than 2002 but I have used it in modified and stock engines,usually over 100K miles. I believe I'll stick with that even though it's getting harder to find. O'Riellys auto parts usually has it or will have it the next day.
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I get what you guys are saying about ZDDP and such, but I'm still going to sing the praises of straight corn oil.
I have been using it in my rear end to reduce friction since the late 1980s! Don't knock it until you try it. <Smug>