Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: guzziownr on January 30, 2015, 04:22:03 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr6R5dQa8hY
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Man, I know I look for moving traffic on the crossroad before I head across it, and keep an eye on it while I'm crossing. That guy had the video camera on his helmet and it didn't turn from straight ahead once he started moving. He's lucky to be alive.
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Man, I know I look for moving traffic on the crossroad before I head across it, and keep an eye on it while I'm crossing. That guy had the video camera on his helmet and it didn't turn from straight ahead once he started moving. He's lucky to be alive.
I agree that I probably wouldn't have been jumping into a city intersection quite that fast myself and MIGHT have been able to avoid that lick.
On the other hand, the car blew the red light pretty badly. Everyone else had been long stopped (except the car doing a right-turn-on-red), and the car LOOKED like it was turning into the biker's lane. If you looked at where it stopped, you can't tell where the car was actually going ....
Lannis
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Man, I know I look for moving traffic on the crossroad before I head across it, and keep an eye on it while I'm crossing. That guy had the video camera on his helmet and it didn't turn from straight ahead once he started moving. He's lucky to be alive.
:+1 Ditto on that one Jim. I would never had that accident. Never ever trust any intersection ever but especially after the lights first change.
Notice there is one frame where the guy is standing up and looking back at the intersection. The V7 is still sitting in looking over at the wreck. Theoretically the Guzzi should have taken the hit if he/she had gone into the intersection at the same speed at the same time. Maybe the Guzzi saw it coming.
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t652/redrider901/ScreenShot2015-01-30at62653PM_zps44cd247a.png)
Here is the Guzzi rider. He pulled over and came back to check on the guy.
[URL=http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/redrider901/media/ScreenShot2015-01-30at74029PM_zps53002020.png.html](http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t652/redrider901/ScreenShot2015-01-30at74029PM_zps53002020.png)
(http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/redrider901/media/ScreenShot2015-01-30at62653PM_zps44cd247a.png.html)
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I agree that I probably wouldn't have been jumping into a city intersection quite that fast myself and MIGHT have been able to avoid that lick.
On the other hand, the car blew the red light pretty badly. Everyone else had been long stopped (except the car doing a right-turn-on-red), and the car LOOKED like it was turning into the biker's lane. If you looked at where it stopped, you can't tell where the car was actually going ....
Lannis
I wonder if he would of left the light so fast if he hadn't been beside that Guzzi racer ?
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I wonder if he would of left the light so fast if he hadn't been beside that Guzzi racer ?
You know, that could be true. All of us have had that impulse when we're taking off next to another bike, to see if he's thinking the same think we're thinking!!
Not on a crowded city street, though ... !
Lannis
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Hmmm... Although I like to think that I always look both ways, and I too mistrust all intersections, I don't think the rider in the video did anything outstandingly stupid--in other words, it could happen to anyone of us. It's important to always look, and to be aware, and to expect the unexpected--but it isn't always possible nor will we always get it right. Luckily for him, he didn't wind up catapulted down the street or through the car's windshield. It could have been ugly.
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I wonder if he might have been thinking about the film footage from his goofy camera instead of paying attention to the real matter at hand, like not getting your ass run over?
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Well now.
What the survivor Guzzi and its rider teach us: "Slow bikes save lives".
I figure what queered the rider's play was the VW driver realized he was about to mow down those couple-three pedestrians just entering the cross walk and veered right causing him to hit our man who failed to clear the intersection before entering it.
Sometimes wrong can be shared. Even though the rider got unfairly Fahrvergnügened he does get to share responsibility to a degree.
Todd.
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Dusty, my opinion comes from the fact that all of us regularly have to avoid collisions that would have been caused by another driver not seeing us, or otherwise putting us in an unsafe situation. If we didn't constantly drive defensively, you can be sure we would all get hit by cars before many months passed. I believe that the rider in the video had an opportunity to avoid the collision and should have. The car driver caused the unsafe situation and is to blame for that. I hope he got the book thrown at him. The motorcycle rider had the last chance to avoid the collision and blew it, and I'm blaming him for that, but hope he didn't get cited for the collision.
Interestingly, in MD, the motor vehicle code states that a driver is at fault for a collision if he had the last chance to avoid it and failed to do so.
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Good grief fellas , the crash was the cars fault ??? Yeah , maybe the rider should have been paying more attention , but blaming him absolves the idiot driver . SHEESH :o
Dusty
I don't think that anyone is "absolving" the idiot driver. He's entirely at fault, legally and ethically. But that doesn't mean that a little more attention by the rider couldn't have kept the rider from getting hit. The Guzzi rider didn't get hit, probably because he looked to see the car coming and waited for it.
I think that what people are expressing is "EVERYTHING is your responsibility when you're on the road on a bike!" It's the only way to keep your behind in one piece. Doesn't do any good to say "It was HIS fault!" from your hospital bed, or as your last words, if a more defensive attitude could have kept you on your bike.
That being said, if I was the guy that got hit, my next action would depend on the car driver's reaction. If the car driver was like "Oh, man, buddy, I'm sorry. I screwed that up, I wasn't paying attention, we'll wait for the police, I'll make it right, screw what my insurance company says, I'm admitting it was my fault RIGHT HERE in front of witnesses." and appears to mean it, then I'm OK and won't make it hard on him, anyone can screw up, it's whether you admit it or not that makes the difference.
If he says "Hey, my light was YELLOW, you pulled right in front of me, damn motorcycles" or got out of the car reeking drunk, then I'd end up owning the guy with whatever a good lawyer could do to him. His choice of how it goes; can't say fairer than that!
Lannis
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Doesn't matter who's "fault" it is, if you're on the bike YOU LOOSE!
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Good grief fellas , the crash was the cars fault ??? Yeah , maybe the rider should have been paying more attention , but blaming him absolves the idiot driver . SHEESH :o
Dusty
:+1 Sure are a lot of experts here. :BEER:
Matt
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:+1 Sure are a lot of experts here. :BEER:
Matt
Yeah , bestest , greatest riders ever :o ;D
Dusty
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Good grief fellas , the crash was the cars fault ??? Yeah , maybe the rider should have been paying more attention , but blaming him absolves the idiot driver . SHEESH :o
Dusty
:+1 Sure are a lot of experts here. :BEER:
Matt
Yup, a lot of "experts" that likely wouldn't have been struck as he was. Perhaps the rider next to him for one is one of us "experts" and he was theoreticallygeomet rically closer to the VW.
For what it's worth - I don't read one single post above blaming the rider but many noting his accountability/responsibility. It's not like he was rear-ended.
Todd.
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On the bright side, looks like he stuck the landing. ::)
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I wonder if he might have been thinking about the film footage from his goofy camera instead of paying attention to the real matter at hand, like not getting your ass run over?
Yup, that might account for less scanning. Nic
Q: What is the most overheard comment from those standing in line at the motorcycle garage entrance to the Gates of St Peter?
A: But I had the right of way!
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The guy posted this to Reddit and answered all these questions;
He did wait a second and looked, you can even see pedestrians on his right that would have been hit if he didn't have his bike in the way
The car making the right on red blocked his view of the on-coming car which was still pretty far up the street, the driver said he was speeding because he was out of town and unfamiliar with the roads (?!)
The guzzi took off after he did because they were stopped at the red in a staggered position.
Here's the thread
[http://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycles/comments/2u3spt/my_helmet_camera_video_idiot_cager_blows_red/]
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Stupid 4 way intersections ::( - where's the round-about?
Nick
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:+1 Sure are a lot of experts here. :BEER:
Matt
And some of the experts haven't been hit by a car in 40 years, either. Again, no one is saying that the rider is "at fault". We are saying that the rider, in THIS case, could have avoided being hit by the car that WAS at fault.
When I ride with non-Guzzi riders here at home, I'm SHOCKED by the speed at which they navigate city streets and intersections. We'll be going down an urban four-lane together with multiple cross streets. At every intersection, my head is on a swivel. I'm watching the pending left-turning cars, the pending right-turning cars, the cars next to me, my hand is covering the brake, and I slow down if I see the least chance that the top of someone's wheel is in motion toward me.
But the guys I'm generally riding with? They're looking straight ahead, sometimes feet on the highway pegs, cruising at a speed that would have them in someone's grill or driver's door if they pulled out. Not a bit defensive.
And, by the way. I'm NOT an expert race driver, airplane pilot, mechanical designer, electrical technician, or stonemason. I'm NOT an expert tree-climber, hiker, roofer, sailor, swimmer, runner, or politician. I'm NOT an expert with women, I know nothing about horses, I'm a fair shot, a so-so venison butcher. I'm NOT an expert fisherman, scuba diver, bicyclist, or chemist. I'm no good at law enforcement, publishing, computer technology or salesmanship. I'm NOT an expert botanist, carpenter, welder, potter, balloonist, historian, or author. I can't tan a hide, produce a television show, or sing tenor. I'm NOT an expert weaver, dressmaker, hatter, cobbler, or blacksmith.
But I AM, after 44 years and half-a-million miles of riding 25+ motorcycles, an expert street motorcycle rider, if there is such a thing. Not a road racer, not a trials specialist, not an enduro expert but a street rider. And so are some of the other folks on this list. If they're not, then who on God's green earth IS? They're worth listening to when it comes to something like this, and not just dismissed. We can all be hit by an errant driver, jumped on by a deer, slide on spilled diesel or antifreeze, or tagged from behind in an intersection. But we're good at avoiding avoidable "accidents" ....
Lannis
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And some of the experts haven't been hit by a car in 40 years, either. Again, no one is saying that the rider is "at fault". We are saying that the rider, in THIS case, could have avoided being hit by the car that WAS at fault.
When I ride with non-Guzzi riders here at home, I'm SHOCKED by the speed at which they navigate city streets and intersections. We'll be going down an urban four-lane together with multiple cross streets. At every intersection, my head is on a swivel. I'm watching the pending left-turning cars, the pending right-turning cars, the cars next to me, my hand is covering the brake, and I slow down if I see the least chance that the top of someone's wheel is in motion toward me.
But the guys I'm generally riding with? They're looking straight ahead, sometimes feet on the highway pegs, cruising at a speed that would have them in someone's grill or driver's door if they pulled out. Not a bit defensive.
And, by the way. I'm NOT an expert race driver, airplane pilot, mechanical designer, electrical technician, or stonemason. I'm NOT an expert tree-climber, hiker, roofer, sailor, swimmer, runner, or politician. I'm NOT an expert with women, I know nothing about horses, I'm a fair shot, a so-so venison butcher. I'm NOT an expert fisherman, scuba diver, bicyclist, or chemist. I'm no good at law enforcement, publishing, computer technology or salesmanship. I'm NOT an expert botanist, carpenter, welder, potter, balloonist, historian, or author. I can't tan a hide, produce a television show, or sing tenor. I'm NOT an expert weaver, dressmaker, hatter, cobbler, or blacksmith.
But I AM, after 44 years and half-a-million miles of riding 25+ motorcycles, an expert street motorcycle rider, if there is such a thing. Not a road racer, not a trials specialist, not an enduro expert but a street rider. And so are some of the other folks on this list. If they're not, then who on God's green earth IS? They're worth listening to when it comes to something like this, and not just dismissed. We can all be hit by an errant driver, jumped on by a deer, slide on spilled diesel or antifreeze, or tagged from behind in an intersection. But we're good at avoiding avoidable "accidents" ....
Lannis
You forgot to add: really articulate, occasionally bewildering, sometimes frustrating, often entertaining Wildguzzi postie.
Nick
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When I ride with non-Guzzi riders here at home, I'm SHOCKED by the speed at which they navigate city streets and intersections. We'll be going down an urban four-lane together with multiple cross streets. At every intersection, my head is on a swivel. I'm watching the pending left-turning cars, the pending right-turning cars, the cars next to me, my hand is covering the brake, and I slow down if I see the least chance that the top of someone's wheel is in motion toward me.
But the guys I'm generally riding with? They're looking straight ahead, sometimes feet on the highway pegs, cruising at a speed that would have them in someone's grill or driver's door if they pulled out. Not a bit defensive.
I need to concentrate on the road so much that I stopped riding with even expert riders. Solo for me.
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I need to concentrate on the road so much that I stopped riding with even expert riders. Solo for me.
I usually end up being solo on group rides, because I just drop off the back and let them go if we're in those kind of conditions. And I don't even start out with "parade-speed" groups.
I will say that I'm almost ALWAYS happy with other Guzzi riders, like on our Third Saturday rides; we tend to ride exactly the same way. Or on BritBike rides, with guys that I've been riding with for 15 years.
But solo IS safest. Less things to keep up with for a busy (not to say overloaded) brain.
Lannis
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I refer all of you experts to this ;) :D :D
Dusty
I'm not claiming expert status, but I stand behind my statement that the guy had a helmet camera, and once he started moving, it never deviated from straight ahead until he was hit.
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I've been riding over 56 years and in SC we can ride year round and, until recently, I road most every day. That is quit a bit of exposure but I have yet to hit or be hit by a cage. I have no idea why. Were I the rider in the video, I suspect I would have been hit. Other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, I just don't see what the rider did wrong. Knowledge or in my case "road smarts" is helpful but I believe just plain luck has more to do with it than anything. :BEER:
Matt
I'm not claiming expert status, but I stand behind my statement that the guy had a helmet camera, and once he started moving, it never deviated from straight ahead until he was hit.
He was hit almost as soon as he started moving.
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I've been riding over 56 years and in SC we can ride year round and, until recently, I road most every day. That is quit a bit of exposure but I have yet to hit or be hit by a cage. I have no idea why. Were I the rider in the video, I suspect I would have been hit. Other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, I just don't see what the rider did wrong. Knowledge or in my case "road smarts" is helpful but I believe just plain luck has more to do with it than anything. :BEER:
Matt
He was hit almost as soon as he started moving.
Well, experts can have different opinions too. Nothing wrong with having different opinions after we see the same video.
Lannis
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He was hit almost as soon as he started moving.
True. A view from above might tell more. I suppose the extreme case would have been where he didn't move at all and was hit, and the motorcycle driver couldn't be blamed for that.
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I've been riding over 50 years as well and never been in a two vehicle accident. (In the emergency several times due to my own stupidity.) I would never have been in this accident UNLESS I was asleep at the wheel/handlebars, which this guy was, IMHO.
Luck a very small factor. Never trust traffic lights, never trust yield signs, never trust cross traffic stop signs, never trust one way street signs...etc.
In this case the cage driver was a d***head and the cyclist (at that moment in time) had s*** for brains.
Sorry, but nobody forces anyone to get on a motorcycle. Once you do there is no better protection than your own awareness. Defensive driving anyone??? Maybe that's not taught anymore as your safest refuge.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmg86CRBBtw
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Dusty posted: "I seldom deal with true urban traffic , it can be a bit overwhelming".
Me too. However, my brother, who has been riding as long as I have, rides to work, about 40 miles round trip, in Tampa traffic on his TW200 or his Majestic Yamaha scooter. When I visit I find it very hard to keep up. To me, it appears he has no regard for traffic or his own safety. He is 72 and to this day has not hit or been hit by a cage. Last month, when returning from work, around 0200, he got tangled up in some new construction and crashed. He wasn't moving very fast at the time so no injury but the LEO impounded his scooter and made, according to my brother, go to the hospital. He was given a ticket for reckless operation. Needless to say he is pissed. Only cost him $25.00 to get his scooter back. He think nothing of splitting lanes, will jump up on the sidewalk to get around traffic you name it. I don't think there is a stop sign in Tampa that he hasn't run. Now if that's not a communication of street smarts and luck then I have no idea what is ;-T :BEER:
Matt
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sorry fellas , not sure what the rider could have done differently . If one sits still after the light turns green , there is a high chance of being rear ended , or at least yelled at .
Dusty
I'll tell you exactly what he could have done. Take the extra 1 or 2 seconds (literally) to look to his left to be sure some a**hole isn't running the red-light. Do you think that's never happened before??
Apparently you think getting T-boned by a red-light runner is less of a concern than being fender bumped by someone right behind you at a stop or maybe (heaven forbid) someone might yell at you? Some twisted logic going on here.
As you lie in your coma you dream that "Yeah, but it was his fault...so I'm good".
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How come I can see that car coming clear as a bell?
He didn't see it cuz he didn't look.
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I've been riding over 50 years and don't see where the MC rider did anything wrong. He didn't prematurely shoot off the stop. The car driver was completely careless and at fault. There's no reason the MC rider could have seen him coming illegally since a car on the drivers right was blocking the mc rider's view of the offending driver. Unless you ride really cautious this could have happened to you. Everyone in that intersection was dutiful going about their business except the perpetrator of this accident.
By the time you see the offending car in this video it's too late as the MC rider is now concentrating on going straight across the intersection. It's like when I hit 2 deer coming across the road in front of me from my left. I momentarily saw them before impact but it was too late for me to do anything about it. ~;
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Wayne :+1 Safety on our highways is a shared responsibility but things happen. As motorcycle riders, although we may be the biggest looser, we can not take total responsibility for our safety. Had the rider waited 10 seconds before he moved and was hit many critics would say the same thing, should have looked, should have waited. Trust is a poor word when it comes to our safety but if we are going to ride in traffic we have to trust the folks who we share the road with to assume some responsibility for our safety as we do theirs. If we can't trust folks to stop for the stop light then how are we going to ride, push the motorcycle through the intersection. ::( Many have posted negative comments about the rider. Years ago the USDOT was encouraging the state to pass laws that, for all practical purposes, make the motorcycle responsible for the accident. I don't think the rider did anything wrong but this is where we disagree as many of you don't think he did anything right. Back in the day USDOT felt the same way. :BEER:
Matt
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Dusty posted: "I seldom deal with true urban traffic , it can be a bit overwhelming".
Me too. However, my brother, who has been riding as long as I have, rides to work, about 40 miles round trip, in Tampa traffic on his TW200 or his Majestic Yamaha scooter. When I visit I find it very hard to keep up. To me, it appears he has no regard for traffic or his own safety. He is 72 and to this day has not hit or been hit by a cage. Last month, when returning from work, around 0200, he got tangled up in some new construction and crashed. He wasn't moving very fast at the time so no injury but the LEO impounded his scooter and made, according to my brother, go to the hospital. He was given a ticket for reckless operation. Needless to say he is pissed. Only cost him $25.00 to get his scooter back. He think nothing of splitting lanes, will jump up on the sidewalk to get around traffic you name it. I don't think there is a stop sign in Tampa that he hasn't run. Now if that's not a communication of street smarts and luck then I have no idea what is ;-T :BEER:
Matt
Lucky, indeed! He sounds like a real sits-on-brains.
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Lucky, indeed! He sounds like a real sits-on-brains.
I would tend to think so but........... :BEER:
Matt
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Well I haven't been hit by a car running a red in 40 years of riding so I must either be an expert or just lucky or a little of both. I think many of you "experts" have been lucky.
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This is not a motorcycle event this is a traffic accident and the car is blowing the red light no matter what. I approach every intersection as if someone is going to run a light or a stop sign. Over the years I have avoid a couple of potential T bones as a result of defensive driving.
There was time and space for the biker to see the car blowing the light. Look at this photo. There is what 50 feet separating them. The car has already entered the intersection. The view is unimpeded for the biker. He is going slow enough and should have stopped whether he is on a bike or a truck.
I watch the wheels of vehicles at intersections. I hate those stupid moving hub caps because it makes it harder to tell if the vehicle is moving. But none the less I assume that if a vehicle is moving they are going to blow the light.
I agree with Jim the biker is not paying attention. His camera does not lie. He is looking straight ahead.
I say in the first photo below the car is further into the intersection than the bike is. He is clearly moving and is crossing the white line.
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t652/redrider901/ScreenShot2015-01-31at73648PM_zpsd7a5fc4a.png)
And the next frame
[URL=http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/redrider901/media/ScreenShot2015-01-31at73727PM_zpsdddf73af.png.html](http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t652/redrider901/ScreenShot2015-01-31at73727PM_zpsdddf73af.png) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/redrider901/media/ScreenShot2015-01-31at73648PM_zpsd7a5fc4a.png.html)
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In the motorcycle game you always have to be more aware than the people around you and defensive at all times. People don't look for you and even scarier, many may see you, but not care. Lots of folks say that accidents are always avoidable and I think being careful all the time and being defensive and aware the risk can be reduced significantly... I also believe in the "red Zone" where an accident becomes unavoidable.
When I was 18 (I know the first reply will be "young rider, no experience, gets in accident" but hear me out), I got into my first, and (knock wood) only accident. I was making a left had turn onto a well traveled city street. I had made the left turn and coming in my direction was a Chevy El Camino in the left turn lane. I had a suspicion that he would try to cut me off to make his left turn. I decided to cheat right in the lane and slow down to give me more room in case he tried. He started to turn, thought better of it and stopped. I held my lane position, thinking the scary part was over with and just like that, he floored it blocking the whole lane and I hit him in the passenger door.
This is a situation I anticipated, compensated for and could have avoided if he would have done the stupid thing I assessed. Instead It escalated into a spot where it was unavoidable.
In the video posted the car was definitely at fault (just like my accident) but the difference is, in my opinion, that the rider was not in the red zone where the accident was entirely unavoidable. Not passing blame or criticizing, but to achieve excellence we need to be critical of ourselves and work to be the best always, especially when it comes to safe riding.
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In the motorcycle game you always have to be more aware than the people around you and defensive at all times. People don't look for you and even scarier, many may see you, but not care. Lots of folks say that accidents are always avoidable and I think being careful all the time and being defensive and aware the risk can be reduced significantly... I also believe in the "red Zone" where an accident becomes unavoidable.
When I was 18 (I know the first reply will be "young rider, no experience, gets in accident" but hear me out), I got into my first, and (knock wood) only accident. I was making a left had turn onto a well traveled city street. I had made the left turn and coming in my direction was a Chevy El Camino in the left turn lane. I had a suspicion that he would try to cut me off to make his left turn. I decided to cheat right in the lane and slow down to give me more room in case he tried. He started to turn, thought better of it and stopped. I held my lane position, thinking the scary part was over with and just like that, he floored it blocking the whole lane and I hit him in the passenger door.
This is a situation I anticipated, compensated for and could have avoided if he would have done the stupid thing I assessed. Instead It escalated into a spot where it was unavoidable.
In the video posted the car was definitely at fault (just like my accident) but the difference is, in my opinion, that the rider was not in the red zone where the accident was entirely unavoidable. Not passing blame or criticizing, but to achieve excellence we need to be critical of ourselves and work to be the best always, especially when it comes to safe riding.
It is interesting that we all look at the same photos and come away with a different opinion. My red zone be it a cage or a MC is the same. It starts at the white lines and ends when I exit the intersection. I look left first because that is where my first danger is coming from. As I approach the center of the intersection I look right to see if danger is coming from that side. I do not believe green lights tell me it is safe to cross it just tells me it is my turn. When we have ice storms in North Carolina the same thing happens over and over. When a traffic light is out we are supposed to act as if the intersection is a 4 way stop sign. But invariably people on the larger road believe they have the right of way and keep on going without ever slowing down.
I enter intersections looking for moving vehicles that should not be moving. Unless they are clearly coming to a stop I approach with caution.
I see this accident as completely avoidable. The light turned green and after that the driver of the bike begins to accelerate into the intersection never looking to his left. He was going slow enough that had plenty space to stop fast. Getting T boned in the very front left side of the offending car says he could have seen this car coming especially because he was still in first gear. He had not even shifted yet. Now let's say he is well into the intersection and gets T boned in the rear of the bike. There is a very good indication that he was blindsided by the T bone and never had a chance at seeing it coming. This one was in view of his camera; why was it not in view of his eyes/brain?