Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: swooshdave on February 08, 2015, 09:26:45 PM
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(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff192/swooshdave/Guzzi/IMG_0066_zps28327ffb.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff192/swooshdave/Guzzi/IMG_7494_zpsc75a0857.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff192/swooshdave/Guzzi/IMG_7493_zps66e72d7a.jpg)
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff192/swooshdave/Guzzi/IMG_7491_zps89ad5bb5.jpg)
I'm looking at this bike. Engine is out and I haven't seen it so I don't know how apart it is. "Parts are all there" but we know how that goes, if they aren't on the bike you will never know.
The big question: How much to offer for it? I tried to trade a Porsche 914 for it and he wouldn't go for it. ;D
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The Airhead went down the road on it's side. I'm putting it in the "No Thanks" category.
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I'm just looking for some sort of guideline from the experts.
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I would work backwards from what a bike in concourse condition would be worth and how much it would take to get this bike to that shape. Top dollar for a restored MK1 Le Mans is probably $16 ~ $20K. This bike has been apart at least once, obviously the frame has been painted, ditto the wheels. Mechanical condition? missing parts? A full mechanical rebuild of the engine, transmission, rear drive, carbs, brakes etc.. can easily pass $6K, then there are the cosmetics, what happened to the tank that the cast Moto Guzzi script is gone? the mounting recess has been filled in and the tank repainted. My guess is that bike will take at least $10K to get it to top condition so I would peg the value at $6K absolute tops. If you can and want to do the restoration yourself then $6K may be a good buy. Something tells me that the seller thinks that he is in possession of a much more valuable bike.
I try to buy the absolute worst example I can find or the very best. Buy a wreck and at least you know that everything will be rebuilt or replaced and budget accordingly. Alternately buy an original bike with known history, in good cosmetic condition and just mechanically restore it.
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Good stuff!
I wondered about the decal on the tank. I think I've seen them before in pics. Were they used on the earliest bikes? It has the Series 1 taillight. I don't know what the serial number means, is this one of the bikes that the distributor had to make the numbers match? I wish I could have gotten a look at the engine.
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also make sure it is a lm motor with correct top end
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Every picture I have seen of a LeMans MK 1 has the cast 'Moto Guzzi' tank emblems. Perhaps the tank was damaged, repainted and the rectangular recess and pin holes were bondo filled or the tank is from a V7 Sport or a reproduction. The engine serial number and the serial number stamped on the ID tag should match if it is a US or Canadian distributed bike.
It is probably an original Series 1 Mk 1 LeMans but there are certainly clones out there, the seat, rear fender, side panels, tank and bikini fairing are all reproduced. Make certain it's an original before you commit. The 180mm triple clamp with the steering damper is correct, same with the bars and controls. Dash has been messed with, foot rests missing boot guards, no exhaust in the pictures, switches and ignition missing in the pictures.
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http://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2013-06-01/motorcycle/1979-motto-guzzi-850-le-mans-mk-ii.aspx (http://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2013-06-01/motorcycle/1979-motto-guzzi-850-le-mans-mk-ii.aspx)
Could it be MkII tank like this one or is it not stock either.
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Fork caps are wrong. Also obviously the frame has been painted, so the tag has been off..what is the date on the tag anyway?
Engine number is key.
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071829?
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I'd say $2500, $3000 tops. If you put $5000 into a rebuild, even doing a lot of the work yourself, I'd guesstimate that you'd have a $6-7000 bike. But the prices of these things are increasing.
Rich A
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Agree with Rich.. I wouldn't spend over $3k for it. probably less even unless the motor looks perfect.
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I'm very fearful having not seen the engine. I could get in over my head pretty fast.
I will say I've only seen a few Le Mans and I'm shocked at how small they are.
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071829?
Yes.
Doesn't that put it at the end of the Mk I? Or at the end of the Series 1?
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I'd say $2500, $3000 tops. If you put $5000 into a rebuild, even doing a lot of the work yourself, I'd guesstimate that you'd have a $6-7000 bike. But the prices of these things are increasing.
Rich A
+2. I might consider selling mine for 20K though. 8)
Pete
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I'd spend $5K. And you don't have to bring it back to perfect shape in one big project, especially if you intend to ride the bike. Just fix the engine, go through the electrics and put that bike back together. Hell, that alone will increase the value and if you don't like it then sell it as is; I can't imagine you would loose any money on the deal providing you don't dump too many funds into the engine.
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Dave , now you understand why I was asking about the beemer . The experts have suggested a range of $2,000 to
$6,000 ;D How much does the seller think his stuff is worth ?
Dusty
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Dave , now you understand why I was asking about the beemer . The experts have suggested a range of $2,000 to
$6,000 ;D How much does the seller think his stuff is worth ?
Dusty
Nothing else was offered for sale. The only reason the Guzzi was up for discussion is because I've been pursuing it. So I don't have a good reference. But he's getting too old to ride a Le Mans and knows he'll never get to it.
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The early round tailight bikes are the most desirable. They did not have the boot guards. There are a lot of minor differeces between the first and second gen 850 Lemans.
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From what I have gathered the only way to know if it's real is by the engine serial number? Is there an issue with restamped numbers? Or is that not talked about?
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From what I have gathered the only way to know if it's real is by the engine serial number? Is there an issue with restamped numbers? Or is that not talked about?
Well, it's certainly easy enough to do. These aren't the highest tech data plates known to man.. <shrug>
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Well, it's certainly easy enough to do. These aren't the highest tech data plates known to man.. <shrug>
Does anyone have a picture of the engine serial number on this type of engine?
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Numbers have been discussed before:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=23931.5;wap2 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=23931.5;wap2)
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This is the stamping on a V7 Sport, the V and the K are a larger font size than the numbers, note the random stamping of the stars before and after the engine number
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/April092012003.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/April092012003.jpg.html)
Courtesy of This Old Tractor - identifying frame numbers:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/gb_en_technical_moto-guzzi-frame-numbers.htm
Blank reproduction frame tags and rivets are available from several sources, the stamp dies are also readily available so an unscrupulous seller could reproduce a frame tag. I f the frame tag look new then it may well be new, ie a re-stamp.
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As you can see the frame plate does not look new.
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Engine number should begin with a "VE". I recently bought an 850 LeMans (series 2) with a higher number like this one. It's a US imported bike.
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91xxx is ok for a mk1
saturday i am looking at 920xx range nr , also 1.1
the tacho on "your bike" is 1.2, early tacho's reading till 8.000rpm ( in europe)
speedo is 1.1
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91xxx is ok for a mk1
saturday i am looking at 920xx range nr , also 1.1
the tacho on "your bike" is 1.2, early tacho's reading till 8.000rpm ( in europe)
speedo is 1.1
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/gb_en_technical_moto-guzzi-frame-numbers.htm
There is a list of changes on this page. I'm not sure where the 1.2 change happened. Tach apparently changed at 12500.
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I think its a pretty safe bet it started life as a LeMans. That ID plate looks original. If the engine number matches the plate that should confirm it. I still wouldn't pay big bucks for it though.
Pete
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I would work backwards from what a bike in concourse condition would be worth and how much it would take to get this bike to that shape. Top dollar for a restored MK1 Le Mans is probably $16 ~ $20K....
A correct Mk I Series I LeMans (assuming that's really what this is), is NOT a $16,000 - $20,000 bike. Maybe in another ten years, but not today. It's a $10,000 bike; maybe $12,000 if all-original -- which this one will never again be.
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A correct Mk I Series I LeMans (assuming that's really what this is), is NOT a $16,000 - $20,000 bike. Maybe in another ten years, but not today. It's a $10,000 bike; maybe $12,000 if all-original -- which this one will never again be.
I disagree. Unless you've lived under a rock for the last few years, restored or nice original V7 Sports and 850 LeMans' are easily approaching $15K. In 5 years $20K+. Feel free to dig up this post and quote me on this. I'll still have one of each.
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A correct Mk I Series I LeMans (assuming that's really what this is), is NOT a $16,000 - $20,000 bike. Maybe in another ten years, but not today. It's a $10,000 bike; maybe $12,000 if all-original -- which this one will never again be.
If you know where I can find a great MKI Le Mans for $10 ~ $12 K please let me know, have cash in hand. :)
2014 Bonhams Las Vegas Auction - 1976 Ice Blue Le Mans MK I, lot 383 sold for $21,850.00, it had very, very low miles and had been sitting for a long time, it would require a full mechanical strip down and going over before running.
The V7 Sport and MKI LeMans, properly restored, all correct, are fetching well past $15K now, I have watched several of each sell in the past three years for that money and more. A LeMans MKI decent rider, good condition may go for as low as $10K. For $10K or under you are going to need to look for a CX100, Lemans MKIII etc.
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If you know where I can find a great MKI Le Mans for $10 ~ $12 K please let me know, have cash in hand. :)
2014 Bonhams Las Vegas Auction - 1976 Ice Blue Le Mans MK I, lot 383 sold for $21,850.00, it had very, very low miles and had been sitting for a long time, it would require a full mechanical strip down and going over before running.
The V7 Sport and MKI LeMans, properly restored, all correct, are fetching well past $15K now, I have watched several of each sell in the past three years for that money and more. A LeMans MKI decent rider, good condition may go for as low as $10K. For $10K or under you are going to need to look for a CX100, Lemans MKIII etc.
There was a very nice MkI in Miami for $10K this past year. Clean runners go for $10K; a perfect restoration slightly more -- maybe $12K. A perfect original bike maybe a bit more -- $15K. However, no matter how much money you throw at the bike in this thread, it will never be original again. $6K for THAT mess? I think you're off by 100% (as do several others here). Bonhams? Bonhams is for chumps.
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I disagree. Unless you've lived under a rock for the last few years, restored or nice original V7 Sports and 850 LeMans' are easily approaching $15K. In 10 years $20K+. Feel free to dig up this post and quote me on this. I'll still have one of each.
How, exactly, do we "disagree?"
I wrote that a MkI was not a $16 - $20K bike TODAY, but would probably be worth that much in 10 years.
You say that today they are "approaching $15K," which is another way of saying "a lot less than $16K," (and not at all in conflict with my estimate of $12K).
You also say that "in ten years" they will be worth $20K -- WHICH IS WHAT I WROTE.
And why are the V7 Sport values being conflated with LM I values? They are different bikes and the V7 typically commands the higher price.
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a perfect restoration slightly more -- maybe $12K.
My mistake, you are probably correct, a perfect restoration of a LeMans MKI is not worth more than $12K
If anyone knows where I can buy a perfectly restored Mk I Lemans send me a pm, :BEER:
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No, no... you're probably right -- they are approaching $15K... by way of $12K....
:pop
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I'm saying a nice 850 LeMans will be a $20K bike in FIVE years. Other versions of LeMans' will eventually follow suit. GET 'em while you can. Guzzi cheapskates hate this fact. There's always the T-3...
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Unless you've lived under a rock for the last few years, restored or nice original [ ] 850 LeMans'.... In 10 years $20K+. Feel free to dig up this post and quote me on this.
$20K IN TEN YEARS for a restored or nice original 850 LeMans. I'm quoting you on this.
I'm saying a nice 850 LeMans will be a $20K bike in FIVE years.
TEN YEARS became FIVE YEARS in less than 30 minutes? Now you're just messing with me. Maybe I am living under a rock, but it seems like you've been hit in the head by one.
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$20K IN TEN YEARS. I'm quoting you on this.
Now you're just messing with me.
You're right, I meant FIVE (edited and corrected). Much like the Guzzi factory, too much wine while I was typing.
;D
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Assuming we don't have another recession in the near term, you might be right about it being 5 instead of 10 years. I guess we shall see.
Cheers. :BEER:
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Assuming we don't have another recession in the near term, you might be right about it being 5 instead of 10 years. I guess we shall see.
Cheers. :BEER:
Cheers brother.
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my way of thinking is that if you want a collectable bike you pay the most you feel happy paying for it, theyre not making anymore, only clones. I think to say that the bike in this post will never be a minter is wrong. it can be whatever the owner/builder wants it to be, maybe at a big cost, maybe not. there are a lot of very good bike builders around. there a lot of people these days with great talent, not all of them have websites, flash premises etc, and I personaly know some that even work out of old run down houses. the building, restoration etc that goes on here in nz alone amazes a lot of people, cottage industry is what a lot of people refer to it as.
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See what you started Dave ~; :D
Dusty
You should have seen the last time when I said I wanted a V50. The big block boys came out of the woodwork. :-\
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a very nice lm850 series 2 sold here today for $13500. sold in six hours
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a very nice lm850 series 2 sold here today for $13500. sold in six hours
Pic?
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sorry not sure how to post link to pics
the sale feel through and it was relisted again this morning, sold again in no time
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a very nice lm850 series 2 sold here today for $13500. sold in six hours
A $13,500 Australian continent motorcycle probably translates into a 9 to 10k bike in the USA.
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^^^ At the current exchange rate, it equals $10,467.76 US Dollars.
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^^^ At the current exchange rate, it equals $10,467.76 US Dollars.
Then it must have been a beater...
;D
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I am going dredge up this old post because it still has a heartbeat.
I finally sold the 914 and reached out to the owner of the Le Mans. He said that we need to talk when he gets back from a trip. :bike-037:
So there's still a chance. I'm obviously worried about overpaying but chances of the heart outweighing the brain are pretty high here. Of course I won't getting any rational support here, not that I expect any. :grin:
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Wrong place to hope for rational advice, so here goes with good advice, BUY IT NOW.
They aint making more of them and the prices for good ones keep going up every year.
In my opinion the Le Mans MkI will surpass the desirability of the original V7 Sport if it has not already and it's a better performer.
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That is just the kind of discouragement I was hoping for. :bow:
The wait is going to kill me. Luckily I have a Ducati to finish up in the meantime. Does anyone have someone they hate who might want an old Bevel? :shocked:
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Dave, Can you get a shot of the right side of the head tube. The sn should be stamped in.
The correct starting # for a LM is VE11111 to VE13040, LM 2 Starts at VE13041. They had badges on the tank. The LM3 is the first with decals on tank.
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That's the second one I've seen with a toggle switch installed in the dash. People should leave well enough alone!
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Dave, Can you get a shot of the right side of the head tube. The sn should be stamped in.
The correct starting # for a LM is VE11111 to VE13040, LM 2 Starts at VE13041. They had badges on the tank. The LM3 is the first with decals on tank.
The plate number starts with a 7 which is ok for a North America bike.
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That's the second one I've seen with a toggle switch installed in the dash. People should leave well enough alone!
What is the switch for?
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What is the switch for?
Don't know, you'll have to ask the owner. It's not stock.
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Is there a stock switch that commoningly fails that would warrant a toggle switch? Perhaps something that wasn't readily available?
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There was a very nice MkI in Miami for $10K this past year. Clean runners go for $10K; a perfect restoration slightly more -- maybe $12K. A perfect original bike maybe a bit more -- $15K. However, no matter how much money you throw at the bike in this thread, it will never be original again. $6K for THAT mess? I think you're off by 100% (as do several others here). Bonhams? Bonhams is for chumps.
The ice blue one on eBay just passed US$10k with plenty of time left. And it's only a Series 2. :evil:
The reasons auctions are important for pricing is that the selling price is public. Otherwise you are looking at asking price which is rarely the final price. Also keep in mind the premium that adds even more to the price.
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The ice blue one on eBay just passed US$10k with plenty of time left. And it's only a Series 2. :evil:
The reasons auctions are important for pricing is that the selling price is public. Otherwise you are looking at asking price which is rarely the final price. Also keep in mind the premium that adds even more to the price.
A couple years ago I took some negative email for stating that I bought a partial 1973 V7 Sport for restoration (missing a rear wheel, tool boxes, seat, fenders, foot rests etc...) for what I felt was a fair price at $4K and still think that for the time it was a good price to pay for a matching numbers V7 Sport project. Today I would be very lucky to find the same project for $6K and would have seen basket cases for $7K.
If you can find a 1st generation Le Mans that is mostly complete for $6K I would grab it!
5 Years ago I wanted to buy a 1973 Ducati 750 GT in decent original condition but balked at $11K. The last time I found a similar bike the seller wanted $16K and he got his asking price.
A properly restored 1st gen Le Mans with documentation of the work and parts will fetch $15K today and more in the future. As round case Ducati's continue to climb in value the desirable Guzzi's from the 1970's (V7 Sport, 750S, 750 S3, Le Mans Mk I) are going to keep rising in price. The same goes for Laverda and Benelli machines from the 70's.