Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Spuddy on February 09, 2015, 05:19:45 PM
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Granted, I've only got 425 miles on it since November - but hey, I haven't rode a bunch in winter before. What a decent, no, very good highway ride! [I'm still getting to used to Lola so we've stayed of the snow and mud so far.]
You're right Peter Y, what a neat motorcycle. Now if I can figure out the manual's instructions for fork settings and find the rear shock's rebound adjustment screw...
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The Stelvio (to me) seems like one of the best road bikes on the market. I really like the Euro version without the bags and with the cast wheels.
Congrats on your bike!
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Oh, yeah! It's a sport bike with long travel suspension and that kool Guzzi powerplant. What's not to like? Unless like me, you have stubby legs. ;D
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The Stelvio is the best road bike I have owned. After riding the Stelvio for some time I sold my Bonneville because it rode so rough, that long suspension travel spoiled me and I felt like I was being beaten.
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The Stelvio is the best road bike I have owned. After riding the Stelvio for some time I sold my Bonneville because it rode so rough, that long suspension travel spoiled me and I felt like I was being beaten.
Mine is the best two-up road bike I've ever owned. Lots of room, lots of power, lots of handling. Better for Fay and I than any of the "touring bikes".
Lannis
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Took me a while to sell the idea of the Stelvio to KAB. After convincing her that different luggage could be used (not the Trax boxes!), she gave in and the check was written. She absolutely loves the Stelvio now. It is so comfortable for her.
We've done 12,500 miles since March.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/rdbandkab/stm1_zpsd3444e2a.jpg)
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on the Buell forum a few Uly guys are moving on to Stelvio's.. I always invite them to join up here..
I need to grow an inch or two in inseam.. any hints? can you lower a Stelvio? how heavy are they? they say my Uly is 425# dry..
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Mine is the best two-up road bike I've ever owned. Lots of room, lots of power, lots of handling. Better for Fay and I than any of the "touring bikes".
Lannis
Hey Lannis ................ what's
realistic fuel range one up at reasonable highway speeds........... my Griso was pretty minimal. :-[
Ciao.
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I replaced my FJR with the NTX. It's more comfortable and a better long distance mount (for me). Very well done bike overall...
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Here we are in the depth of winter trying to remember the thrill of two wheel travel. It seems so long ago but, in reality, was just last November. For me a 2500 mile round trip to Louisiana on the NTX, what a great ride that was. Four of us met up in Alabama and rode on to the Swamp scooters rally. We had three Stelvios and an EV. The EV was limited by fuel but the Stelvios could march on for miles and miles. Ah, the joy of being on the road and not worried about fuel. Carry as much crap as you can strap on the bike, no problem. Rain, who cares? Speed, as fast as you feel lucky. We danced with the angels. At the rally our food was outstanding! Heck, just watching them cook gumbo was worth the ride. Talk around the campfire, share the bottle, enjoy new friends....that's the real experience. Could you get that on a Honda, HD, BMW...maybe. In the final analysis I had a great time and the Stelvio was a big part of the experience. The bike was painless, dependable, exciting, powerful, and fun...what more can you ask?
Peter Y.
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I did about 300 miles just this past Sunday.
On the EV..... ;D
It was closer to the garage door. I use the EV a lot in the winter months, because of the better rain and wind protection.
But if you ask my wife, she prefers the ride on the Stelvio over the EV. The longer suspension travel and shock linkages on the Stelvio means it isn't as harsh. And we both find the stock Stelvio seat is more comfortable than the EV seat, even with a number of mods to the EV seat.
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realistic fuel range one up at reasonable highway speeds........... my Griso was pretty minimal.
With the 8.5 G tank the NTX has an easy 300 mile range at any speed you want to run. I normally run 5-7 MPH over the posted and average between 39-42 MPG.
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The Stelvio (to me) seems like one of the best road bikes on the market. I really like the Euro version without the bags and with the cast wheels....
The cast wheels are easily and inexpensively available through the dealer parts system and the rear cases come off in a heart beat. Also, I'm told that it's a great two-up bike.
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I need to grow an inch or two in inseam.. any hints? can you lower a Stelvio? how heavy are they? they say my Uly is 425# dry..
Change to the Griso shock in the rear and raise the forks in the triple trees in the front. Also need to cut the side stand and possibly remove the center stand.
As far as weight, it's about 640# Wet and ready to ride -- about the same as the 1200 GSA big tank version of that bike.
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As far as weight, it's about 640# Wet and ready to ride -
sorry, deal breaker.
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sorry, deal breaker.
Not to argue, but I would suggest a couple things for you to consider.
First, whenever Spring arrives up there in MN, take your Uly out and fill the tank in it's "ready for the road" setup (rear cases, crash bars, hand guards, etc) and take it over a scale. Most Co-ops have a set of scales. You might be surprised at the number it gives you. I certainly was when I did the same thing with my 650-Strom a few years ago.
Second, my plan is to be in Grand Marais in late-June for that rally. Take my bike down the road and see if it feels that heavy. Again, you might be surprised.
Ride safe.
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Well I have put 40K miles on mine since 2012. Its a great road bike, and I was surprised how well it handles the dirt/fire roads too. Heavy?.... not compared to my Victory Vision.
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Hey Lannis ................ what's
realistic fuel range one up at reasonable highway speeds........... my Griso was pretty minimal. :-[
Ciao.
4.9 gallon tank, averaging about 41 MPG overall, a little more if strictly on the highway.
At 160 miles, I'm looking for a fuel stop. I've coasted into one as I turned over 200. Plenty for me and my style, others in different places or with harder butts have often expressed a desire for more.
Lannis
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Not to argue, but I would suggest a couple things for you to consider.
First, whenever Spring arrives up there in MN, take your Uly out and fill the tank in it's "ready for the road" setup (rear cases, crash bars, hand guards, etc) and take it over a scale. Most Co-ops have a set of scales. You might be surprised at the number it gives you. I certainly was when I did the same thing with my 650-Strom a few years ago.
Second, my plan is to be in Grand Marais in late-June for that rally. Take my bike down the road and see if it feels that heavy. Again, you might be surprised.
Ride safe.
510# fueled w/out luggage loaded. I can't see myself on anything heavier.
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The Guzzi site says the wet weight is 598 lbs and the seat is 32-33 in high. For me, the seat would be better is a couple of inches higher.
I saw a Youtube of a man riding a Super Tenere with his normal American size wife on the pillion. The film showed them running gravel roads and fording streams with ease, then zinging down a twisted highway. I'm sure the Stelvio is just as much up to the task. (except for that low seat)
I have not yet ridden a Stelvio, but I rode the Super T. I'm getting the idea that this may be the way to go. The Stelvio appears to be a better deal and up close, I find it more appealing than the Yamaha.
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Ditto, for all the positive things already said about the Stelvio on the road.
For me, a few tweaks were in order to finish the bike off for ultimate long-distance comfort- a Russell seat and an extended windshield. For the windshield, I simply improvised a Laminar Lip left over from my last 1200GS. PYoung had Mr. Gustafsson ( http://www.bikescreen.com/ ) make him an extended shield that looks virtually exactly like stock (except for the added height).
One of the best things about the Stelvio's road-going prowess is the flexibility it offers you to venture down a gravel road or dirt trail should such a desire strike you.
A huge attraction for me is the character of the power delivery. While the Japanese multis and the BMW boxers appeal more to the metrosexual and sissy crowd, the Guzzi is a more masculine machine that has traditional visceral appeal. No bullsh** conveniences to quell the throb of the big VTwin!
Yes, as most big dual-sport type bikes, it's a relatively tall bike and the Russell can add about an inch to that. Like its GS ADV cousin, the Stelvio is going to tip the scales at about 630-640 wet with all the standard gear.
For the money, no better deal exists.
If you want the versatility of the Stelvio with a little less weight, join the chorus line calling for a Baby Stelvio with an upgraded 800+- CC motor based on the V7.
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While the Japanese multis and the BMW boxers appeal more to the metrosexual and sissy crowd, the Guzzi is a more masculine machine that has traditional visceral appeal. No bullsh** conveniences to quell the throb of the big VTwin!
Now that there is funny.
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Is the NTX taller than the '11 vintage small tank Stelvio? I rode an '11 and it seemed to be about as tall as I could handle, sat on a '14 NTX and it seemed a bit higher.
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NTX and plain Stelvio should be the same height. The seat has two positions and if you sat on one with the seat in the 'high' position it would be about 1" taller.
Peter Y.
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Ditto, for all the positive things already said about the Stelvio on the road.
For me, a few tweaks were in order to finish the bike off for ultimate long-distance comfort- a Russell seat and an extended windshield. For the windshield, I simply improvised a Laminar Lip left over from my last 1200GS. PYoung had Mr. Gustafsson ( http://www.bikescreen.com/ ) make him an extended shield that looks virtually exactly like stock (except for the added height).
One of the best things about the Stelvio's road-going prowess is the flexibility it offers you to venture down a gravel road or dirt trail should such a desire strike you.
A huge attraction for me is the character of the power delivery. While the Japanese multis and the BMW boxers appeal more to the metrosexual and sissy crowd, the Guzzi is a more masculine machine that has traditional visceral appeal. No bullsh** conveniences to quell the throb of the big VTwin!
Yes, as most big dual-sport type bikes, it's a relatively tall bike and the Russell can add about an inch to that. Like its GS ADV cousin, the Stelvio is going to tip the scales at about 630-640 wet with all the standard gear.
For the money, no better deal exists.
If you want the versatility of the Stelvio with a little less weight, join the chorus line calling for a Baby Stelvio with an upgraded 800+- CC motor based on the V7.
There ya go............... what year is yours Leaf? ....... if you don't mind me asking.
Ciao ;-T
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1. I'm going to give the stock saddle a long term test comfort wise. If not 1,500 miles it will be perhaps 7,000 miles [after the 'Civil War / Barber Tour.] I should know by then. However, it is taller than what I'm used to. A rough guess is that it could loose .5 to 1 inch.
2. I located the source of my 'cold rectangle,' airflow from the sides and up and over the tank. I wonder of anyone has experimented with larger 'stock style' wind wings on the tank. Doesn't seem they do enough to be effective. Maybe it's Baker Built time...
3. I'm gunna have to to get around to checking the fuses M.I. put in. Both fogs have gone out already. I have no idea how effective they are at night but they appear to be reasonable day time runners. Maybe it's time to pull out some of my dodgy looking Piaa's...
Spuddy
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1. I'm going to give the stock saddle a long term test comfort wise. If not 1,500 miles it will be perhaps 7,000 miles [after the 'Civil War / Barber Tour.] I should know by then. However, it is taller than what I'm used to. A rough guess is that it could loose .5 to 1 inch.
2. I located the source of my 'cold rectangle,' airflow from the sides and up and over the tank. I wonder of anyone has experimented with larger 'stock style' wind wings on the tank. Doesn't seem they do enough to be effective. Maybe it's Baker Built time...
3. I'm gunna have to to get around to checking the fuses M.I. put in. Both fogs have gone out already. I have no idea how effective they are at night but they appear to be reasonable day time runners. Maybe it's time to pull out some of my dodgy looking Piaa's...
Spuddy
You are just wasting 7000 miles. You may as well go on and get a Russell. I'm telling you for sure, it's the best comfort feature you can add.
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Stelvio%20II/IMG_0664.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Stelvio%20II/IMG_0664.jpg.html)
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While the Japanese multis and the BMW boxers appeal more to the metrosexual and sissy crowd, the Guzzi is a more masculine machine that has traditional visceral appeal. No bullsh** conveniences to quell the throb of the big VTwin!
Now that there is funny.
;D Yep. ;-T
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If you want the versatility of the Stelvio with a little less weight, join the chorus line calling for a Baby Stelvio with an upgraded 800+- CC motor based on the V7. and keep waiting
or go look at what KTM offers.. 478# 1190 Adventure, but I like the 690 Duke 328# (would have to add luggage somehow)
I'm not dissing the Stelvio in any way, I really wish it would fit me but it's too tall and too heavy for a shrimp like me. I'd like to race one against my Uly.. you'd whomp me on top end but off the line or in corners, I'm not so sure.
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or go look at what KTM offers.. 478# 1190 Adventure, but I like the 690 Duke 328# (would have to add luggage somehow)
I'm not dissing the Stelvio in any way, I really wish it would fit me but it's too tall and too heavy for a shrimp like me. I'd like to race one against my Uly.. you'd whomp me on top end but off the line or in corners, I'm not so sure.
I know about the KTM's. They are very dirt-oriented, too much in some cases. The big nut for me is the service cost/complexity for the KTM's. They are as bad or worse than the Ducati's.
Whatever makes you happy is what you should ride. Can't criticize anyone's choice of machines.
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I was intrigued by the new Triumph Tiger 800XCX at the Progressive Motorcycle Show. The Tiger seems to split the difference between my DR650 and the big ADV bikes, and looks to be less expensive to buy and maintain than the BMW F800GS.
(http://www.ridermagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/2015-Triumph-Tiger-800XCx-white-3qtr.jpg)
I don't need 2-up capacity, but I want something to pull both on and off-road duty that's more comfortable to travel distances with than the DR. Any opinions among the group?
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I like it!
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/fotoguzzi/Buell/IMG_0781_zps5b103617.jpg)
point for recognition of the location.
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KTM 990 and Stelvio NTX, full of fuel, on the scale:
http://stelviontx.blogspot.com/2013/11/big-bikes-hit-scale.html
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I was intrigued by the new Triumph Tiger 800XCX at the Progressive Motorcycle Show. The Tiger seems to split the difference between my DR650 and the big ADV bikes, and looks to be less expensive to buy and maintain than the BMW F800GS.
I don't need 2-up capacity, but I want something to pull both on and off-road duty that's more comfortable to travel distances with than the DR. Any opinions among the group?
The thing that gets me about the tiger is the engine. with 3 cylinders it's not going to have the torque that a twin does. It'll be smoother on the road, but other bikes will be better off-road. The ADV bikes are all about compromise, you just have to decide where you want to compromise.
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The thing that gets me about the tiger is the engine. with 3 cylinders it's not going to have the torque that a twin does. It'll be smoother on the road, but other bikes will be better off-road. The ADV bikes are all about compromise, you just have to decide where you want to compromise.
I've ridden the three-cylinder Triumph Tiger. The Triumphs are great motorcycles, much more reliable and trouble-free than the BMW.
I agree with Doppel. I prefer twins or singles. The Tiger strikes me as too much a sewing machine bike. It's not as bad in that regard as a 4-cylinder but my seat-of-the-pants judgment for me is that it feels too much like a 4-cylinder. Other folks may be fine with this.
Comparing both the BMW 800 twin back-to-back with the 3-cylinder Triumph, I greatly prefer the performance of the BMW by a wide margin. However, again, the problem with the BMW is the problems with BMW! There are now apparently several new problems that are plaguing the 800 Twins in the fuel tank, fuel pump category.
Though not in the same league as the Tiger, the Triumph 2-cylinder Scrambler would appeal to me more from an engine standpoint.
The second thing, again, is maintenance. Although the Tiger's valve inspection service intervals are fairly far apart, such has got to cost more money and/or be more involved than the simple valve service of a Guzzi. The Guzzi will spoil you in this regard.
Hey, Guzzi bikes have their own problems. A lot of this forum is devoted to those issues. Niggling little issues with the Stelvio are irritating. All in all, however, I do not know what I'd replace it with.
For anyone wanting a big dual sport without the weight of an NTX, looking at an older non-NTX Stelvio may be the thing to do. Without all the engine guards, big tank, and saddlebag paraphernalia, et al, the early Stelvio is much lighter in weight than the NTX.
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point for recognition of the location.
Wisconsin rally. What do I win? ;D
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Wisconsin rally. What do I win? ;D
a smiley face,
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/fotoguzzi/IMG_2031_zpsb6e92ba5.jpg)
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Yes I agree, a Russell Day Long Saddle is the way to go. I put one on mine shortly after I bought the bike. The comfort level went way up, but it also raised me from a flat footing the bike to up on my toes. Not a big deal as that was the case with the BMW Adv.'s that I previously owned.
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All good points regarding the 800 Tiger. The new XCX is supposed to be considerably improved, so maybe the Tiger no longer comes in second to the F800GS. I have yet to ride either bike, so I don't really know -- yet.
I actually fit on a Stelvio, and on-road I am comfortable on that bike, but I think my modest dirt experience suggests I might be better off with a smaller bike weighing 500 lbs wet, as opposed to a larger bike weighing over 600 lbs.
The other problem with the Stelvio is a matter of trust. Maybe premature valve wear and cracking fork legs are "niggling little issues" to some, but not to me. (I freely acknowledge that the factory has addressed these issues in recent model years, but I am not likely to buy a new motorcycle.) Iffy fueling, wonky wiring, a groaning clutch, and having to find full syn 10W60 oil while traveling off the beaten track may be minor annoyances, but they persist after several model years, and it is at least debatable whether the Stelvio's good qualities make putting up with these annoyances worthwhile.
Then there is the fact that Moto Guzzi is once again falling behind the competition in tech. The Triumph XCX comes with multi-mode throttle, TC, and ABS, plus cruise control; the Guzzi has one throttle map (and even that one can be a bit problematic), a crude TC system, ABS is either on or off, and no cruise control.
I won't debate the "character" issue. I too prefer v-twin and single motorcycles (which is all that I've ever owned), and there is just something about the Moto Guzzi big twins that appeals to me in a way that other motorcycles do not. I think the California 1400 shows that Guzzi can build a modern, reliable, competition-crushing motorcycle that continues with that appeal, but I don't want another California. What I think want at this point is a lighter, trimmer, more agile Stelvio, with all of the tech and quality of the new California 1400. The two questions in my mind are: How long will I have to wait for it? and, What do I ride in the interim?
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Still, it's 200-300 lbs lighter than a Gold Wing or a big Harley.
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I only have a 2012 and 2013 NTX to base my comments on (2012 gave up to the deer gods), but here we go-
Fueling is pretty damn good. I've had a bunch of bikes that were(are) worse. This bike doesn't need anything out of the box. Some guys who added pipes and modified maps went back to factory. It's good. I feel no need to change (and I can change, did change my Griso). No flashes, boxes, or other nonsense makes this bike much better. Guzzidiag gives the owner the option.
Wonky wiring? I can't say I agree. I added some AUX lamp fuse holders, had the dealer perform the TSB on the wiring around the starter, check my grounds and battery as part of my normal run around. I can see how someone reading an internet forum might get put off and not trust it.
Clutch- it does groan early in the day. This is something that shouldn't happen, but it does.
10W60- I never needed it. The bike doesn't burn oil. I buy a case of UNI from Motocarr and call it a day.
TC, ABS- The multi-function ABS and TC of other MFGs are new even to them. I don't see the need on a bike like the Stelvio. A 1200 multistrada? Sure. A Stelvio? No idea why one would need it above what it is. They allow you to turn both off and on where some don't (super T, for one). The Stelvio is more the norm in the ADV world, and in a lot of cases ahead of the game.
Cruise- You won't see cruise unless a bike has throttle by wire. The only Guzzi with that is the Cali. I never considered that a deal breaker for me, but to each his own.
The Stelvio is a damn good large ADV bike. It competes well with it's target- 1200GS. Price and options, for me, were the selling point. The Guzzi being a Guzzi sealed the deal. The bike is a very well done, well sorted, capable bike. I enjoy it for what we use it for- long tours. I have a KTM if I want to get into trouble off road. This bike replaced a sport touring rig for me and I never looked back. It's not for everyone, that is for sure.
The other problem with the Stelvio is a matter of trust. Maybe premature valve wear and cracking fork legs are "niggling little issues" to some, but not to me. (I freely acknowledge that the factory has addressed these issues in recent model years, but I am not likely to buy a new motorcycle.) Iffy fueling, wonky wiring, a groaning clutch, and having to find full syn 10W60 oil while traveling off the beaten track may be minor annoyances, but they persist after several model years, and it is at least debatable whether the Stelvio's good qualities make putting up with these annoyances worthwhile.
Then there is the fact that Moto Guzzi is once again falling behind the competition in tech. The Triumph XCX comes with multi-mode throttle, TC, and ABS, plus cruise control; the Guzzi has one throttle map (and even that one can be a bit problematic), a crude TC system, ABS is either on or off, and no cruise control.
I won't debate the "character" issue. I too prefer v-twin and single motorcycles (which is all that I've ever owned), and there is just something about the Moto Guzzi big twins that appeals to me in a way that other motorcycles do not. I think the California 1400 shows that Guzzi can build a modern, reliable, competition-crushing motorcycle that continues with that appeal, but I don't want another California. What I think want at this point is a lighter, trimmer, more agile Stelvio, with all of the tech and quality of the new California 1400. The two questions in my mind are: How long will I have to wait for it? and, What do I ride in the interim?
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Anyone care to compare riding positions Stelvio vs. Breva 1100?
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Anyone care to compare riding positions Stelvio vs. Breva 1100?
Yeah, talk to me.
Dean
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Yeah, talk to me.
Dean
So I enjoy the Breva position (which is similar to my old Bandit and RT) but might do better with a slightly more forward lean (maybe midway between Breva and Ducati ST). Inseam around 35", 6'3" 195. Nic
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So I enjoy the Breva position (which is similar to my old Bandit and RT) but might do better with a slightly more forward lean (maybe midway between Breva and Ducati ST). Inseam around 35", 6'3" 195. Nic
On my Breva setup I am leaning slightly forward. I'm interested in hear from someone who has riden both and their comments on the differences in riding position.
Dean
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The pre-NTX Stelvio should be in the 500-pound range.
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The pre-NTX Stelvio should be in the 500-pound range.
I have a hard time imagining the Stelvio (NTX or not) being less than 600#. Here is mine full of fuel- http://stelviontx.blogspot.com/2013/11/big-bikes-hit-scale.html
660lbs with ~60lbs of that fuel. The skid plate, crash bars, case rack, and spoke wheels can't be that much over a standard Stelvio with cast wheels...
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I have a hard time imagining the Stelvio (NTX or not) being less than 600#. Here is mine full of fuel- http://stelviontx.blogspot.com/2013/11/big-bikes-hit-scale.html
660lbs with ~60lbs of that fuel. The skid plate, crash bars, case rack, and spoke wheels can't be that much over a standard Stelvio with cast wheels...
Yes, it's close.
A year or two ago I used a digital scale and ramp setup that I calibrated with a 100-pound weight instead of a large truck scale to weigh my NTX and a BMW GSA. Both bikes came in at about 630-40, fully gassed and rigged, with the Guzzi slightly less but that could be weighing error.
I investigated the big truck scales and was told by more than one operator that at low weights, like the 600 pound range, the error in such scales was greater than at typically higher weights.
We also weighed and calculated an estimated weight for the saddlebags, the bag mounts, the crash bars, lights and all the other items that come on the NTX (and which are added to the GSA). Yes, those items aggregate close to 100 pounds.
Published wet weight for a '10 non-NTX model was 550 pounds.
Riders Hill had a red 2010 for sale and they had an advertised weight in that range.
In years past, I rode the hell out of an 09 model that I kept for someone over an extended period of time and the difference in weight from an NTX was obvious.
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On my Breva setup I am leaning slightly forward. I'm interested in hear from someone who has riden both and their comments on the differences in riding position.
Dean
I own both and find the Breva position a tad more confined than the Stelvio at 6'2" with 34" inseam. The Breva has a 1 3/4" bar riser and a corbin saddle with Buell pegs for a 1" lower resting place for my feet which gives me a little more room for my aging knees. The Stelvio has 2" bar risers and I sit pretty much upright and from MY perspective about as comfortable for the long haul as I can get. I have a Cal Sci windscreen that took some niggling to get it to mount properly but makes a world of difference for me and if I keep the bike I intend to do a custom saddle for more leg room and longer saddle time. At this time I have no intention of getting rid of the Breva cause it puts a smile on my face everytime (when it is working and the electrical gremlins are behaving).
Hope this helps
Cheers
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I was intrigued by the new Triumph Tiger 800XCX at the Progressive Motorcycle Show. The Tiger seems to split the difference between my DR650 and the big ADV bikes, and looks to be less expensive to buy and maintain than the BMW F800GS.
(http://www.ridermagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/2015-Triumph-Tiger-800XCx-white-3qtr.jpg)
I don't need 2-up capacity, but I want something to pull both on and off-road duty that's more comfortable to travel distances with than the DR. Any opinions among the group?
Probably the wrong group to be asking... but that's the direction I thinking of...
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I replaced my FJR with the NTX. It's more comfortable and a better long distance mount (for me). Very well done bike overall...
Ive done the same, put some long daze in the saddle with this bike (1200+) and was pleased on how it performed. Better than the FJR in terms of comfort (peg to seat relationship) and engine buzziness. I think it's a great street bike for touring and surprises you on how well it does on gravel/two track roads..