Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: erik_w on February 15, 2015, 04:50:29 AM
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I've ordered a velleman diy points booster kit - seems like a fun way of improving ignition performance, has anybody tried this kit or smt similar?
it is built for a single coil system - but if I want to use it on a dual coil system, would that mean I need two of them? or could I just connect both coils to it and make a wasted spark setup?
anybody tried this?
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Is this like the ignition amplifiers used on dual plugged beemers ?
Dusty
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yes!
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Instead of the points creating the energy to fire the coil - this thing does and the breakers only function like a switch
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Not sure of any performance gain , should make the points last longer .
Dusty
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I've got two of these made up and ready to use on my LM2 (they don't come pre built in Europe, you have to solder them up).
Each set of points requires a separate kit.
Two reasons I've yet to install them...
1) According to the instructions they use 4A each (so 8A in total), which appears to be quite a bit when the alternator only produces 20A and if you're run lights, indicators etc, it doesn't leave a lot to spare.
2) Having read threads by people who've installed them in cars, there are reports that some heat sinks get very hot.
Be interested in your thoughts if you install and use them.
(http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Stevex998/IMG_0859_zps55d187e1.jpg) (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/Stevex998/media/IMG_0859_zps55d187e1.jpg.html)
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Instead of the points creating the energy to fire the coil - this thing does and the breakers only function like a switch
I'm not sure what you mean. Points don't create energy. They act as a switch.
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no, your right - what I meant is that they take the current off the points and also makes it so the points gap doesn't matter
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Thanks. I understand now. :)
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I'm not sure what you mean. Points don't create energy. They act as a switch.
These kits work by using the existing points to fire a transistor.
The transistor then earths the coil instead of the points. This reduces the load on the points from several amps to a few milliamps and so reduces points wear and the requirement to adjust them as often.
When installed, the original condensers must be removed or disconnected.
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I've had previous electronic ignitions on cars and I had to disconnect them every couple of years to cook off any oil that wasn't burned off by the lower current. YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary - i.e. you may have different results.)
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There's wiring diaghrams on the Internet showing a GM 75-90 ish HEI module to handle the current with the points as a trigger. GM HEI modules are 10-30 bucks and you need two..... Nice thing about the GM HEI is every parts store in North America has them in stock. Another option for a guy who can build a very simple circuit.
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True those GM modules are cheap and available , which is good , because you are gonna need 4 of them . 2 as spares , they are after all , GM parts :o ;D
Dusty
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1) According to the instructions they use 4A each (so 8A in total), which appears to be quite a bit when the alternator only produces 20A and if you're run lights, indicators etc, it doesn't leave a lot to spare.
2) Having read threads by people who've installed them in cars, there are reports that some heat sinks get very hot.
Be interested in your thoughts if you install and use them.
They aren't going to use an EXTRA 4 amps. They are just talking about the 4 amps that the coil needs, which it also needs with the points.
Do you have a schematic?
I found the schematic. The electronics will use about 1/3 amp. The antique design uses a darlington transistor. There is going to be a good bit of heat at that transistor, and a bit less energy at the coil. But then the dwell time is so long on a Guzzi motor, it won't mean a thing.
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Wayne, do you mean the velleman kit? I thought I could rebuild it to accommodate two points and coils by doubling up on some wiring while letting the transistor work for both. what do you think about that?
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Wayne, do you mean the velleman kit? I thought I could rebuild it to accommodate two points and coils by doubling up on some wiring while letting the transistor work for both. what do you think about that?
Yes the Vellman kit.
Doesn't Guzzi need separate coils, or a distributor?
What are you trying to do?
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I have the dyna made boosters on my shelf. When installed, I got an annoying spark when the ignition was turned on. I removed them.
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I thought that instead of having two systems working side by side - I would modify one to work with two points and two coils - I have a two coil two stroke bike wo distributor I am working on - would that be advisable?
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annoying spark?
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They aren't going to use an EXTRA 4 amps. They are just talking about the 4 amps that the coil needs, which it also needs with the points.
Do you have a schematic?
I found the schematic. The electronics will use about 1/3 amp. The antique design uses a darlington transistor. There is going to be a good bit of heat at that transistor, and a bit less energy at the coil. But then the dwell time is so long on a Guzzi motor, it won't mean a thing.
Thanks, that's answered one of my questions.
I don't think I'll ever fit them; they're going to take up a fair bit of room and I don't ride the Guzzi enough for points wear to be much of a problem.
Heat from two heatsinks may also be a problem.
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Thanks, that's answered one of my questions.
I don't think I'll ever fit them; they're going to take up a fair bit of room and I don't ride the Guzzi enough for points wear to be much of a problem.
Heat from two heatsinks may also be a problem.
And they aren't waterproof. All told, it looks like a recipe for additional failure.
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I thought that instead of having two systems working side by side - I would modify one to work with two points and two coils - I have a two coil two stroke bike wo distributor I am working on - would that be advisable?
???
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annoying spark?
yes, depending on where the motor stops when you turn it off, the bogus ignition signal generated by turing on the ignition can happen when the intake valves are open, and create a backfire. sub-optimal...
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I have a single point version of these, and a dual point version sitting on my shelf. make me an offer...
http://www.dynaonline.com/skins/products/accessories/Dyna_Boosters/
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I bought two of the Velleman kits, just to have. Fearful that they'd stop making them, since it's to support an archaic technology. I even bought a 1970's vintage Popular Mechanics issue that explained and rated the different ignition booster systems. Fascinating reading.
Ended up never using them. All my points based machines use magnetos, not battery-coil systems, so there's less benefit to the kit.
Still an interesting idea though.
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And they aren't waterproof. All told, it looks like a recipe for additional failure.
+1
I tried something like this in 70"s, it hated the rain, I wrapped it in plastic bag on side of road before removing it completely.
fixed a problem I didn't have and gave me one I can live without. Got soaked before I got going again!!!
35 + years later I can say with absolute authority, points live indefinitely without a magic box, just lube the wick annually. Condensors have never died.
What was the problem ?
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I got to see a lunar eclipse 35 years ago when the condenser failed on my Ambassador. Otherwise never had one stop me. I'm sure it was the eclipse that caused the failure :D
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Reportedly, there are two gains from the points booster.
1) Point surfaces get less current, and last longer. With the booster, the points act simply as a switch, so they pass a very small signal current. Less arcing and degradation of the point faces.
This may be moot. My experience is that the rubbing arm and point mounts are more of a problem than the contact surfaces.
2) Stronger spark. The spark is actuated by the sudden collapse of the coil current when the points open. The booster switches off the coil current electronically, which is faster than the mechanical points. The faster collapse gives a greater spark. Dynatek claims "Ultra fast spark voltage rise time; 50% faster than points."
Actually, I'd think an electronic "switch" is more than 50% faster than a mechanical switch. Is their claim just a guess?
3) Longer plug life. With the booster the plug is passing much less amperage, so less erosion.
Relevant? My plugs get discarded more for contaminants and carbon deposits than for genuine erosion.
I'd welcome more info on this topic.
Joe
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3) Longer plug life. With the booster the plug is passing much less amperage, so less erosion.
That one doesn't make much sense. Lower current to the spark plug = weaker spark, by definition. The points are carrying much less current and last lnger, but you hope the plugs get the same or more current.
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That one doesn't make much sense. Lower current to the spark plug = weaker spark, by definition. The points are carrying much less current and last lnger, but you hope the plugs get the same or more current.
Yea, the plugs should be getting the same current as before. After all, the points are now simply a switch.
As for "extending plug life," I am merely repeating the claim for more educated people to illuminate me. There is much I don't know.
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#2 is also moot.
Electricity I often say is lazy stuff. It's not going to work harder than it has to do get the job done. If you've got a gap for it to cross, it will use the required amount of power to do the work. If you got more power, goodonya -- frame it and put it on the wall. The spark won't care. It got what it needed.
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#2 is also moot.
Electricity I often say is lazy stuff. It's not going to work harder than it has to do get the job done. If you've got a gap for it to cross, it will use the required amount of power to do the work. If you got more power, goodonya -- frame it and put it on the wall. The spark won't care. It got what it needed.
Then what's the difference between a strong blue spark and weak one?
More, is more. Stronger, equals a powerful spark. Less, is just less. And we've all seen that.
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Instead of the points creating the energy to fire the coil - this thing does and the breakers only function like a switch
How many remember the years ago the portable ignition system. If your ignition failed you hooked this up to your dizzy. It just provided constant spark to the points and let the dizzy distribute it. It is sort of like slime for an old style ignition system. I do not remember exactly how it worked but it was for temporary use in case of ignition failure.
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Then what's the difference between a strong blue spark and weak one?
More, is more. Stronger, equals a powerful spark. Less, is just less. And we've all seen that.
The observation is empirical. The causes not so simple.
My point is that if it takes 40w to light a bulb and you have 60w available, it still takes 40w to light the bulb. You can have high resistence in your wires or a bad connection that makes the current draw more than 40w, but that's occurring independently of the set amount of 40w required to pass the current through the filament.
In our case, the filament is the plug gap. At 0.032, it takes some certain amount of juice to jump the gap. Less than that amount and it won't go. More than that amount and it won't care. If you have a blue spark, it's skookum. If you don't then the gap is wrong, the plug is fouled, the wires have high resistence or are leaky, the dwell is insufficient, quench is wrong, compression is wrong, heat is wrong, available power is bad or the coil is failing, etc. None of those cases change the part where it takes some certain amount of voltage to jump the gap.
You can overcome contamination, bad gaps, and a lot of the other stuff I listed above by upping the current. Nobody argues that. But it's like turning up the radio to fix a funny noise in the engine -- you're not solving your problem. If your spark is dirty, you need to find out why and clean it up.
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Wayne, you seem to know your way around a electrical schematic - do you suggest one would achieve much better results by altering this kit a bit?
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Wayne, you seem to know your way around a electrical schematic - do you suggest one would achieve much better results by altering this kit a bit?
Uh, yeah he does. ;D Sounds to me that you could achieve better results by giving it the flotation test..
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Generally speaking an engine like a Guzzi requires about 12 thousand volts to fire the plug under normal conditions. If the coil is rated for 40K volts,no more than necessary to fire the plugs is required. If you can increase the duration of the spark, now's that's a good thing.
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There was a fellow over on the Honda Single Over Head Cam forum that sold kits and they seemed to like 'em. Seemed to have some promise but by the time I learned of it I had gone the Dyna route.
The two big pluses they pushed, pointed lasted a LOT longer, it was very easy, stupid easy, to unplug and go back to stock.
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Wayne, you seem to know your way around a electrical schematic - do you suggest one would achieve much better results by altering this kit a bit?
What Chuck said.
A quick search turned up the SPA17N80C3 mosfet. Twice the voltage rating and a nearly twice the current rating, compared to the TIP162 used in the kit.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SPA17N80C3/SPA17N80C3IN-ND/593227
The RDS(on) is a bit high, so you may want to parallel two of them. Two in parallel means the heatsink might be eliminated, or at least very small. Reduce or eliminate the zeners which may be wasting power. It would take some design changes. But in the end, other than the knowledge you have gained, the motor could care less. Well, until it gets wet and fails that is.
You really can't change the dwell time. Nothing gained there.
You really don't get any additional power to the coil, it is saturated. Nothing gained there.
You really need to retain the cap on the coil to get the 'multi strike' feature of the ringing field. Nothing gained there.
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Yea, it should make the points last much longer. You only deal w the points "cam" wear now.
It should also make a stronger spark, especially when starting. When cranking the engine to start, the points open so slowly. The electronic switch of the booster is much faster, giving a faster collapse of the coil current and a better spark.
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I installed a Vellman unit on my Loop & very pleased with it. After about 10,000 km, it's on the original points with very little wear on the fiber heal and just a little evidence of pitting on the points surfaces, not enough to warrant replacing.
Starts easily hot or cold and after some experimenting with different advance springs, no evidence of detonation even when pulling a steep hill in hot temps w/o revving it unduly.
http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/K2543
(http://tuggboatsport4.site.nfoservers.com/images/distribtes.jpg)
(http://tuggboatsport4.site.nfoservers.com/images/motoguzoz.jpg)
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Pretty bike.. :drool
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HondaMan on the SOHC4 Honda website makes a dual point ignition booster like that for the old Honda 4's. I see no reason why it wouldn't work in a Goose if it would fit in the dizzy.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0
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NO.
Just look at the schematic and the TIP162 specs.
Wayne,
I disagree. But instead of arguing, why not put it into SPICE and see how the circuit plays out?
Have you used it before, and can you enter the data?
I'm traveling, working off my phone right now, so it'd be difficult for me until I get home.
Joe
(For others, SPICE is the most popular open source circuit simulator. )
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I installed a Vellman unit on my Loop & very pleased with it. After about 10,000 km, it's on the original points with very little wear on the fiber heal and just a little evidence of pitting on the points surfaces, not enough to warrant replacing.
Starts easily hot or cold and after some experimenting with different advance springs, no evidence of detonation even when pulling a steep hill in hot temps w/o revving it unduly.
(http://tuggboatsport4.site.nfoservers.com/images/motoguzoz.jpg)
Interesting leg shields, how hot does that motor get at speed on a hot day ? not surprised you had to retard it, outside design brief to cut off air cooling.
But , as said previously, this unit won't effect heel wear and pitting after 10K Km (6 miles) is not good, I'd guess points are arcing (hard to see on a loop dizzy)
I'd try running without it but same springs/settings, might fix the pitting issue, no spark across points is much better for them.
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very nice looking bike you have! how have you packaged the wellman unit? I thought I would resin coat it and put it inside an aluminum box - letting the box work as a heat sink while doing without the issued hs - how have you done it?
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Wayne, what would happen if I simply hooked up both points and coils to this unit? it would spark one of the cylinders on the off stroke, but it should still work?
if not, if I wanted to build another box for dual points use, is there any component that could work as a distributor?
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Geodoc it is nice to see someone has saved a distributor machine, I would gladly make room in my crowded shop for one. Probly only use it every other decade but I learned most of them went in the scrap bin!
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RE: leg shields - I've not noticed any problems with getting too hot, but here in Vancouver it rarely gets up there.
As for the Vellman package, I installed it in a little aluminum box that lives behind the RH side cover w/ some holes drilled in the rear and bottom to allow a bit of ventilation.
Since the engine is from a 1000SP / Convert (it was never clear which when I bought it), I used its standard advance curve as a target when setting up the distributor. Basically, I wanted to just slow down the rate of advance so dispensed with the "long loop" spring and tried different ones I got from a local guy that had an old Sun distributor machine with a drawer full of misc. springs. Here's something I sent to Greg Bender about fussing around with the distributor:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_distributor_advance_curve_information.html
For your amusement, here's a Ducati 900SS project that I just finished an electrical system installation on. Yes, it took a while, but when I switched it on it didn't catch fire!
(http://tuggboatsport4.site.nfoservers.com/images/camerolkl.jpg)
(http://tuggboatsport4.site.nfoservers.com/images/021915wiri.jpg)
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Regarding the points booster, in particular the orig. poster's Velleman kit, I examined it closely. Asked some friends about it, even played with electronic circuit simulations. More importantly, I sought the advice of people with greater electronic wisdom.
The bottom line is that the Velleman kit (and most ignition boosters/amplifiers) can provide a 10% increase in the spark. Primarily due to recovering whatever loss there is in the slight points arcing during opening.
That's it.
Of course the kit will make the points last much longer, since the amperage is greatly reduced, but as for a greater spark you get roughly 10% more. Even that is an approximation. Whether 10% is great, or insignificant, I leave that up to the individual rider.
I like it.
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Geodoc, what is the carb/manifold setup on that v700?
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no, your right - what I meant is that they take the current off the points and also makes it so the points gap doesn't matter
Having a incorrect gap will still alter the correct timing.
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It will alter the timing if you don't reset the timing after doing whatever you plan to do with the gap.
In practice, as long as the points open on time, with a 2-cyl, especially a dual coil 2-cyl, dwell isn't really an issue. The coil has way more time to saturate than it needs. Remember -- a bosch blue coil is also used on some V8's. If it can fire 8 in a full cycle with a standard gap, it can fire one with a super wide gap. The only think I can see suffering for it is the spark plug.
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As I said RK, Having a incorrect gap will still alter the correct timing.
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It will alter the timing if you don't reset the timing after doing whatever you plan to do with the gap.
In practice, as long as the points open on time, with a 2-cyl, especially a dual coil 2-cyl, dwell isn't really an issue. The coil has way more time to saturate than it needs. Remember -- a bosch blue coil is also used on some V8's. If it can fire 8 in a full cycle with a standard gap, it can fire one with a super wide gap. The only think I can see suffering for it is the spark plug.
Yup,somehow points with one coil lit the fire in 4 inch bore 10-1 compression V8's at 7000 rpm until electronic ignition cam along. On plug gap, the engine sees a larger than required plug gap as an increase in timing.. Generally speaking a larger gap is required for leaner fuel mixtures..Sometimes a larger plug gap can make a bit more torque or a smoother idle but it all depends on many variables.
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[quote author=jacksonracingcomau link=topic=74724.msg1171486#msg1171486 date=1424059707
35 + years later I can say with absolute authority, points live indefinitely without a magic box, just lube the wick annually. Condensors have never died.
What was the problem ?
[/quote]
What Jackson said. Keep the wick lubed. Be all right. ;D :BEER:
Matt
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The manifolds on mine were modified 30mm ones from an 850T. This was to adapt 36mm Dellortos to an angle that would allow use of the stock air box. Later I made some that were easier to fabricate otherwise better using steel u-bend and water-jet cut flanges for a guy's Eldo:
(http://tuggboatsport4.site.nfoservers.com/thumbs/manifopgp.jpg) (http://tuggboatsport4.site.nfoservers.com/?v=manifopgp.jpg)
(http://tuggboatsport4.site.nfoservers.com/thumbs/manifolds.jpg) (http://tuggboatsport4.site.nfoservers.com/?v=manifolds.jpg)
Geodoc, what is the carb/manifold setup on that v700?