Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bigbikerrick on February 17, 2015, 03:28:27 PM
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Hey Folks, I cant think of a better place to ask this question, with the group's cumulative knowledge , and experience, plus, I trust and respect you folk's opinion.
My wife works as a teller for a major bank. a couple of days ago, she came home upset, because of what a manager said to one of her co workers. The male manager in his mid 50's walked up to a teller , a 24 year old female, who has worked there less than a year, and told her " you won a raffle I held here among ourselves" " you won 2 tickets for carne asada plates" ( mexican steak dinner) these were fund raiser tickets, for some charitable cause, that another employee sold to the manager. As the manager
walked up to the gal to hand her the tickets, she said thank you,and held out her hand to shake his hand, at this point the guy opens his arms wide, and tells her" Women dont shake hands, women hug" he then gave her a hug. after hugging her he states" I am going to make a woman out of you yet!" My wife , who was close by, in the next teller window, heard /saw the whole thing, and told me it made her feel embarassed, and uncomfortable. The 24 year old female employee, had in the past confided to my wife , and a couple of the other teller/co workers that she is "gay", although she is a single parent to a little girl, and that she has a live in female partner. my wife said that the young gal acted very embarassed, and didnt know what to say. another teller co worker also witnessed the event. This manager is an abusive, pompous ass, and a "bully" type, who in the past numerous times has said innapropriate comments, mostly regarding attractive female customers that enter the bank, and on numerous occasions has yelled at and belittled female employees ,even in front of customers. My wife has not discussed the incident with the 24 y/o gal , but did discuss it with the other teller who was present, and she agrees that it was very inapropriate what the guy did.
What are you folk's opinions on this ,and do you think my wife should take any action with HR, etc. or just let it slide?
Thanks for any opinions, advice.
Rick.
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Is there someone above the manager they can go to? But it could turn into a he said, she said situation without proof of his actions.
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the key fact is that there is pattern and this isn't an isolated incident. The next thing to consider, would it do any good to talk to this guy and expect better behavior or does this need to go to management and potentially to adjudication (legal or otherwise).
hopefully it's something than can be solved and won't deteriorate into a real bag of worms. Usually there are no winners.
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I use to hug the ladies and never gave it a second thought. ;D Not any more or not around the work place. ::( I think the manager is asking for trouble-big time. However, when we are meeting friends for dinner or some such thing we frequently hug. Someone should talk to this guy. Going to be hard for him to accept but he can be replaced by one of the ladies. :BEER:
Matt
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The guy is an idiot, harassment can get you fired no matter who you are.
A quiet word on the side from an older woman might make him realize but then again he could turn on the messenger.
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Rick,
While this would most likely fall under sexual harassment to the teller, it is up to her to determine if a complaint will be filed. Your wife and the other co-worker would be witnesses for the complaint.
Your wife and co-worker could file their own complaint about his comments causing them discomfort, but it is a double edged sword. The guy sounds like a total jerk who should immediately be removed from his position, but it seldom works that way.
Unless the bank truly believes in their policies, the guy may just get a talking to and then what? Retaliation is even harder to prove than sexual harassment, and he sounds like the type to do it.
On the other hand, if three women get together and demand action, there is a good chance something will happen. Most companies are deathly afraid of a potential lawsuit of this type.
The question is, do they want to draw the line here. I've seen managers with influence survive complaints that should have had them fired many times over. Other times I've seen people let go for trumped up charges.
It's a mine field. Proceed with caution.
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As much as I disagree with the actions of the manager if I were to do anything at all it would be to offer support to the young woman. I would say that I saw the incident and would offer to be a witness if she decided to stand up. Then leave it at that. I have gotten myself in trouble for fighting other people battles and regretted it in the past.
Walt
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Either she should confront the manager and say "on behalf of some of the employees here, we find your comments and actions offensive and wish that you would curtail such behavior or notify the HR dept. Most employees are afraid of repercussions and usually just go to HR. Once he has been talked to by HR(sexual harassment training?), the next offense would/should be suspension and/or termination.
When I was in grocery management for the Kroger Co., they did not dick around. One written warning w/ subsequent training and you were out the door for the next offense pending investigation!
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Certainly it's evening gossip around the coffee table, but I think she should stay out of it unless called upon to speak. It's not her place to be the sex police. The manager needs to come to hesus, but it's not your wife's job to bring him.
$0.02
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Anyone can report improper actions to HR. Document, document, document. Copy emails, statements. Document who/what/where/when.
She has two witnesses. What's the hesitation? Waiting for someone else 'to do something'?
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Bingo! My wife (Cindy) was an employment law specialist. She is going to her computer now and will answer your question shortly.
Dean
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A friend of mine was receiving harassing text messages at work and wanted to take action against the person responsible. He asked me for advice, specifically if I thought a crime was being committed. I said I am pretty sure this was TEXUAL harassment. ;D ;D
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In my (former) place of work, if the incident made your wife feel uncomfortable, she'd be well within her rights to file a complaint of her own, should she choose to do so.
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Been down this road a couple of decades ago - it's a much less Wild West scenario now.
Corporate is responsible for training management about this stuff. There's somebody in corporate who's job it is to care.
It's a high stress matter, no fun for anybody. A polite anonymous request for local training to corporate might yield results with minimum blowback from the trainees.
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Does the young lady in question have any male gay friends? Maybe she could get one of them to go hug the manager
in a very personal way then let him know that is advances towards the young lady are inappropriate.
Maybe the gander needs to be goosed.
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Banks have cameras everywhere....was any of it caught on a security camera?
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Been down this road a couple of decades ago - it's a much less Wild West scenario now.
Corporate is responsible for training management about this stuff. There's somebody in corporate who's job it is to care.
It's a high stress matter, no fun for anybody. A polite anonymous request for local training to corporate might yield results with minimum blowback from the trainees.
True, all of the above.
Unbelievable that in the year 2015, with everyone in every company trained about what constitutes sexual harassment until their eyes roll back, that some idiot 50's-something wisht-he-had-testicles man would still be doing this "Aw honey come on give me a hug" bullshyte to a young employee.
Our company always had a "hot line" that ANYONE could call about this kind of thing. They'd handle it in whatever way was legally appropriate and the "least messy" but would absolutely deal with the situation, whether the person who was harassed wants to come forward or "cause trouble" or what. They HAVE to. Someone could bring a class-action lawsuit on behalf of the harassed employee, whether she wants them to or not, and end up owning the company. The company can't afford to do anything less than sort it completely out, now.
My opinion is that this old fart needs to be forklifting pallets of deicing salt in the back of Home Depot for the rest of his useless career, not wearing a tie in a heated office with responsibility for other people's careers ....
Lannis
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First question:
Is your wife personally offended enough by the work environment & the manager to file a personal grievance against the guy?
Or
Is she concerned for the young lady and wants to help/support her in her claim?
If your wife feels it impacts her work to the point the needs to file a claim.. She is well within her rights to contact corprate HR.. Skip trying to have the 'come to Jesus' lecture with the manager... Direct confrontation is HIGHLY unlikely to change his behavior, more likely single her out to be picked on
If she wants to help/support the young teller, she needs to communicate with this girl & let her know she 'has her back' is willing to provide statements to HR etc... But it is on the girl to initiate the claim. Independently going around the girl directly to HR or the manager "on her behalf"... That is asking for trouble.
Oddly, I have even seen situations where the 'victim' becomes resentful at those trying to help... If your wife raises a big stink and the girl in question doesn't even want to pursue it.. Your wife will end up being the 'rat' 'busybody' 'troublemaker' 'nosey' of the office! Even if her intentions are good
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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"Squatch and the Mayor are both on to something . Jim , the friend needs to be an ex NFL lineman . Mr Mayor , yes , the question is what Rick's wife needs to do . Damn , what an embarrassment to all of us guys .
Dusty
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My first reaction to the post that Dean read to me was disgust. Unfortunately it takes aging to get to the place where I am today and would have told the bank manager exactly what he could do with his hug and remarks. When I was 24 I too would have said or done nothing; it was the way of business back then. But not today.
Sexual harassment is not about sex. It’s about power. The power one person has over another as in this instance a manager to a subordinate. The 24 year old feels obligated to accept the behavior for fear of losing her job or being treated badly if she shows any resistance. It’s tantamount to quid pro quo where women get to keep their jobs if the manager gets to harass them. And it’s illegal.
Additionally any statement, noise or gestures the manager has made about attractive female customers is sexual harassment not mention cultivating a hostile environment. Again there are laws against it.
I am willing to bet that the bank has a sexual harassment policy in place. It should have been communicated to every employee upon hire and should have clear guidelines (1.) what constitutes harassment and (2.) the steps to take to report the unacceptable behavior.
Tell your wife and the 24 year old to use it and do it now! Tell them to make notes of dates, time and place and any others who may have witnessed the behavior. Tell them to go to HR and verbally require that their discussion be held in strict confidence. (It will be believe me, that is, if the HR dept. has any clue of what it could cost them if they don’t take immediate and appropriate action.)
Neither your wife nor the 24 year old has to confront the manager; that’s HR’s job. They just need to give HR everything they remember about all the instances that have taken place. Then they need to go back to work and see if changes are made. If nothing happens and the behavior continues then have them contact the EEOC.
The EEOC will want all the same information including when and who in HR was notified. The EEOC will take it from there. Nobody at the bank can stop them from taking whatever action they deem necessary to investigate. If the EEOC finds cause, the bank will be penalized and all parties who have filed a claim can obtain attorneys and file civil suits.
Tell your wife not to be afraid, there are at least two who can testify about the manager’s behavior and it needs to stop.
Dean's wife Cindy
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Anyone can report improper actions to HR. Document, document, document. Copy emails, statements. Document who/what/where/when.
She has two witnesses. What's the hesitation? Waiting for someone else 'to do something'?
My wife read your post and kudos. The only person who knows what they are talking about.
Dean
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"Squatch and the Mayor are both on to something . Jim , the friend needs to be an ex NFL lineman . Mr Mayor , yes , the question is what Rick's wife needs to do . Damn , what an embarrassment to all of us guys .
Dusty
The whole point is that NO ONE should feel like they have to "file a personal grievance" or "have someone come threaten the manager" or "stir up a bunch of trouble" or "confront anyone" or do anything that they might feel uncomfortable about.
If people have to do those kinds of things in order to stop sexual harassment, then they are working in a "hostile" work environment, and if I were an EEOC auditor checking into the systems the company has in place to prevent harassment, I'd burn them a new one and have them under a consent order before you could say "Hey Snake Hips, where's my coffee?"
ANY ONE in the office who knows about the situation needs to be able to calmly and objectively report it to whoever in the corporation cares. If no one in the corporation cares, then they need to be jerked up hard via the appropriate enforcement agency - there's hot lines for that too, and they're anonymous. If there IS a person in the corporation whose job it is to care, then it doesn't matter if it's Rick's wife or the person being harassed who calls - there are no comebacks on them. Again, if there IS a comeback, then prepare for a large and munificent settlement after the lawsuit.
I know that people will object to "lawsuit", but when the only alternative is finding a big enough friend to come and break the manager's nose, it's the only way it will stop.
Lannis
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Lannis , what I am saying is , I can't and won't attempt to tell Rick's wife how to act in this situation . Yeah , the manager needs to be shown the error of his ways , Jim was suggesting the direct approach , and the Mayor was offering an alternative .
Dusty
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I'm more on the side of Nick here. If the young woman is so disgusted and offended by a hug- it's up to her to at the very least to say something. She could have refused the hug right there and then- it it would have turned the tables and made him uncomfortable.
OK- so the guy's an a$$. I'm not defending his actions. However, does this mean you really want to go through the whole soul sucking tedium of dealing with "HR"? Really? Patronizing and robotic discussions about sensitivity, respect, and feelings? Do you honestly think at this age you can "un-jerk" some guy by talking it out?
If life is just too unbearable at the bank- she can write an anonymous letter to mention that he's shown a pattern of being a jerk to women. If she's paranoid- then she can mail a copy to herself so she has a date stamped proof of when she sent it. Then she could start keeping a diary of sleights and actions on his part that could be perceived as retribution. Then she could arrange several meetings with her female co workers to form a plan of action and to write out statements. Then she could meet with HR, who will in turn meet with the friends, meet with the manager, and ask the woman to write out a formal treatise on the event. Then again, she could choose to not let something like this rule her life.
For god's sake- they are burning people to death in Libya.
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Lannis , what I am saying is , I can't and won't attempt to tell Rick's wife how to act in this situation . Yeah , the manager needs to be shown the error of his ways , Jim was suggesting the direct approach , and the Mayor was offering an alternative .
Dusty
As Cindy said the proper action is to report this to the Human Resources Department. Nobody confronts the Manager but the HR Department.
Dean
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As Cindy said the proper action is to report this to the Human Resources Department. Nobody confronts the Manager but the HR Department.
Dean
[/quote
Oh I do agree Dean , and tell Cindy thanks . However as a guy , my gut reaction is punch the manager in the nose . Wrong , probably , satisfying , certainly .
Dusty
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I'm more on the side of Nick here. If the young woman is so disgusted and offended by a hug- it's up to her to at the very least to say something. She could have refused the hug right there and then- it it would have turned the tables and made him uncomfortable.
OK- so the guy's an a$$. I'm not defending his actions. However, does this mean you really want to go through the whole soul sucking tedium of dealing with "HR"? Really? Patronizing and robotic discussions about sensitivity, respect, and feelings? Do you honestly think at this age you can "un-jerk" some guy by talking it out?
If life is just too unbearable at the bank- she can write an anonymous letter to mention that he's shown a pattern of being a jerk to women. If she's paranoid- then she can mail a copy to herself so she has a date stamped proof of when she sent it. Then she could start keeping a diary of sleights and actions on his part that could be perceived as retribution. Then she could arrange several meetings with her female co workers to form a plan of action and to write out statements. Then she could meet with HR, who will in turn meet with the friends, meet with the manager, and ask the woman to write out a formal treatise on the event. Then again, she could choose to not let something like this rule her life.
For god's sake- they are burning people to death in Libya.
Would you want your wife, mother or sister treated like this in the workplace. If the answer is no how can you support your argument?
Dean
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The manager should at a minimum be reprimanded, in many organizations he would be dismissed, period.
If the employee wants to file a complaint she must document the exchange and record witness statements, then the complaint should be sent to the HR department of the bank "in confidence".
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Then again, she could choose to not let something like this rule her life.
Unfortunately, spoken like a true middle-aged historically privileged white male manager who has no idea of how anyone else can "rule his life".
This old bastard didn't get the 21st century memo. His behavior is totally unacceptable, morally, ethically, socially, and every other "-ally".
Since he can't legally get a really first-class physical a$$-kicking from anyone, and since the young lady probably doesn't want to shoot him, then getting ground up and spit out by HR is the only thing left.
I guess I'm trying to express my loathing for the condescending, patronizing, clueless, harassing mindset this guy shows,and has historically been allowed to get away with, per Rick's narrative. Maybe I'm just sounding grumpy instead.
Lannis
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Harrassment? are you sure that's one word? :D :D :D
No really, as said above this weener needs to know his actions were inappropriate. And your wife's friend needs to tell him so and she needs to use the word inappropriate and document the time, place and every word that was said in detail. This type of behaviour is not tolerated in today's workplace at all. But the first step is telling him he's made an infraction. He might be a good guy that just doesn't know any better.
Just my opinion, but isn't it a good idea to treat others how you want to be treated? If you screwed up and offended someone wouldn't you want to know before HR opened up a full scale investagation? He could be sorry for what he's done and never do it again. It's not like he waved his pecker at her for Christ's sake.
What this girl does on her own time and who she snuggles with at night has nothing to do with this. A non issue.
I have sat through a few work related training sessions on this issue. (and no, I wasn't the only one in the class, everyone was required to be there)
JS
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Would you want your wife, mother or sister treated like this in the workplace. If the answer is no how can you support your argument?
Dean
My mother would have given the guy a piece of her mind right there- in front of everyone. He would've shrivelled up like a snail on a hotplate.
None of the women I've dated have been victims and none have let someone else speak for them or fight their battles.
Once again- to put things into perspective- we live in a world where there is slavery, ritualized rape, honor killing, and genital mutilation. The fact that this event is given such grave attention is only evidence that we can be self absorbed and unwilling to address far more pressing evils out there.
Climbing off my high horse...it could be a long way to the ground.
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From the EEOC definition:
Sexual Harassment
It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.
Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.
Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.
Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).
The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer.
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great frank zappa song,
"Sexual Harassment In The Workplace"
wait for the best note ever at 49 seconds...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMd2HrY3kwk
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Just my opinion, but isn't it a good idea to treat others how you want to be treated?
JS
That's probably what got the guy going in the first place.
What's the first thing that all the guys say to each other at the first bathroom break at 10:00 AM at the annual day-long EEOC Anti-Harassment training session?
"Damn, I wish one of these babes would sexually harass ME! Won't find ME making any complaints!" All good fun at the bar, spring break, or Mardi Gras. All business at work; has to be.
Lannis
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From the EEOC definition:
Sexual Harassment
It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.
Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.
Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.
Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).
The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer.
That leaves alot to interpretation. I don't consider a hug a "sexual advance" do you?
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In my (former) place of work, if the incident made your wife feel uncomfortable, she'd be well within her rights to file a complaint of her own, should she choose to do so.
:+1
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That leaves alot to interpretation. I don't consider a hug a "sexual advance" do you?
Read it again>
{she said thank you,and held out her hand to shake his hand, at this point the guy opens his arms wide, and tells her" Women dont shake hands, women hug" he then gave her a hug. after hugging her he states" I am going to make a woman out of you yet!" My wife , who was close by, in the next teller window, heard /saw the whole thing, and told me it made her feel embarassed, and uncomfortable.}
"I'm going to make a woman out of you yet?" after refusing the offered handshake and forcing a hug? He's dead, and should be.
Lannis
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That's probably what got the guy going in the first place.
What's the first thing that all the guys say to each other at the first bathroom break at 10:00 AM at the annual day-long EEOC Anti-Harassment training session?
"Damn, I wish one of these babes would sexually harass ME! Won't find ME making any complaints!" All good fun at the bar, spring break, or Mardi Gras. All business at work; has to be.
Lannis
That's not my point Lannis, if I've offended someone, I would like them to tell me so and I'll apoligize and stop what ever it was I was doing. If I think your being an asshole you can bet you will know it right away, I won't go whining to HR I'll tell you so. I'd give you a chance to do better. It was a hug, not shooting her the moon.
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There are issues on a number of levels here.
Apart from it being very 'Unprofessional' for a manager to go around touching his subordinates regardless of gender there is also the age difference thing which, I'm sorry, I find creepy. I'm in my late fifties but am still able to fully appreciate the attractiveness of young women but the idea of sleazing up to them and offering 'Hugs' or anything else is totally loathsome and purient! Also, as mentioned there is the 'Power' thing, Manager potentially has the ability to make decisions that will effect the career and future of their subordinates. That means that whether suggested, implied, threatened or not it could be interpreted by the subordinate that there might be repercussions if they didn't comply with the creepy request for physical contact. No employee should be put in that position.
This is not to suggest that there should never be any physical contact. Good lord we're social creatures and in a working environment like a bank or office there are always going to be times when people are reaching up to shelves or into filing cabinets and squeezing past each other in confined spaces but there is a big difference between that and some noxious perv wanting to squeeze his wrinkly old carcass against a young, female subordinate. I'd say the witness has every right to be upset. It's gross! I have no idea if I would of said something but I'd of made a few discreet enquiries around the place to see if it was the sort of thing that happened often and if it was I'd suggest something be done about it. I know if my daughter came home upset after being treated like that I'd be suggesting she make a formal complaint, (And not tell her mother otherwise Jude would probably be down there in about three seconds flat with a pair of pruning shears! She's never liked bullies!).
I'm with Lannis. Creep is an antediluvian throwback! It's the twenty first century! We don't need dickheads like this running anything more demanding than a tap!
Pete
PS, and Jon, I agree, there are many, much worse, things going on in the world but that doesn't make this situation OK.
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That's not my point Lannis, if I've offended someone, I would like them to tell me so and I'll apoligize and stop what ever it was I was doing. If I think your being an asshole you can bet you will know it right away, I won't go whining to HR I'll tell you so. I'd give you a chance to do better. It was a hug, not shooting her the moon.
That's great, if the interaction is BETWEEN YOU AND ME. BETWEEN "EQUALS".
This is a male manager, IN THE WORKPLACE, with control over the young lady's career and paycheck, offering to press himself physically up against a 24-year-old woman without her permission. There isn't any "whining" in that case, there isn't any "I'll give you a chance to do better."
Against a guy in a bar who can lay one up against your chin and cold-cock you? Sure, let's talk it out. Against a young woman in the workplace, who depends on your good word for her paycheck? Get your mind right.
Lannis
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You know Lannis, I must have skimmed over the "make a woman outa you" comment, that is a problem. I stand corrected. He needs to know that's not acceptable.
If it were just the hug, not worth getting shit canned over. Tell him not to do that again and document it.
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We are an amazingly enlightened bunch of motorsickle riders . Kudos .
Dusty
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There are issues on a number of levels here.
Apart from it being very 'Unprofessional' for a manager to go around touching his subordinates regardless of gender there is also the age difference thing which, I'm sorry, I find creepy. I'm in my late fifties but am still able to fully appreciate the attractiveness of young women but the idea of sleazing up to them and offering 'Hugs' or anything else is totally loathsome and purient! Also, as mentioned there is the 'Power' thing, Manager potentially has the ability to make decisions that will effect the career and future of their subordinates. That means that whether suggested, implied, threatened or not it could be interpreted by the subordinate that there might be repercussions if they didn't comply with the creepy request for physical contact. No employee should be put in that position.
This is not to suggest that there should never be any physical contact. Good lord we're social creatures and in a working environment like a bank or office there are always going to be times when people are reaching up to shelves or into filing cabinets and squeezing past each other in confined spaces but there is a big difference between that and some noxious perv wanting to squeeze his wrinkly old carcass against a young, female subordinate. I'd say the witness has every right to be upset. It's gross! I have no idea if I would of said something but I'd of made a few discreet enquiries around the place to see if it was the sort of thing that happened often and if it was I'd suggest something be done about it. I know if my daughter came home upset after being treated like that I'd be suggesting she make a formal complaint, (And not tell her mother otherwise Jude would probably be down there in about three seconds flat with a pair of pruning shears! She's never liked bullies!).
I'm with Lannis. Creep is an antediluvian throwback! It's the twenty first century! We don't need dickheads like this running anything more demanding than a tap!
Pete
PS, and Jon, I agree, there are many, much worse, things going on in the world but that doesn't make this situation OK.
Pete, I just had a mental picture of YOUR wrinkly old carcass :D
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag65/guzzistajohn/eyegouge_zps8c3b411b.jpg) (http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/guzzistajohn/media/eyegouge_zps8c3b411b.jpg.html)
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If the situation is brought to HR, I believe a new boss will be in charge shortly.
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The good news is banks have cameras. Hopefully the ladies can recall the time which this happened.
The bad news is, if this is a smaller bank, then the manager probably has the advantage and will receive the benefit of the doubt with HR and upper management.
Sure, contacting HR is the thing to do. Just be prepared for nothing to happen to the manager. Be prepared for a hostile work environment after HR interviews the manager. Be prepared to have to fight for what's right. Are they prepared to file a lawsuit if they recieve no joy from HR?
Is a bank teller job worth that fight? Really?
Banks are on every street corner. No way I'd want to work in a place that allowed that BS to go unchecked. I'd be passing my resume around to other banks and be on my way. It's a job, not a career, and life is too short to have to hassle with this kind of BS.
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You know Lannis, I must have skimmed over the "make a woman outa you" comment, that is a problem. I stand corrected. He needs to know that's not acceptable.
While the comment was in poor taste, we don't even know if the manager is aware of the teller's orientation, or if he even cares.
Lesbians are women, after all, so the comment is a non-starter.
The "forced hug" is where he can get nailed. But only if it's a larger company with a good HR department and a good policy.
If the manager is the owner's nephew or son-in-law or cousin, well... Nothing will come of the complaint unless a lawsuit is threatened or filed...
I'd be asking to see the video that we all know exists.
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Anyone know Mrs. Bank Manager? A word to her offline might get Mr. Bank Manager in some deep and stinky do.
Rich A
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Is a bank teller job worth that fight? Really?
Banks are on every street corner. No way I'd want to work in a place that allowed that BS to go unchecked. I'd be passing my resume around to other banks and be on my way. It's a job, not a career, and life is too short to have to hassle with this kind of BS.
I agree. It's just that without a LOT of effort, it's almost impossible for you or I to put ourselves in the place of a 24-year-old female bank teller with a child at home.
You and me? Sure, we'll either square off with the guy and punch out his lights and walk out singing "Take this Job and Shove It!", or go get another job tomorrow. No sweat ... for US!
If we had a 24-year-old female bank teller on this forum to give her opinion, well .... But we don't. We're 95% 35+ year-old white men with good jobs; no way we know what it's like for some obnoxious creep to be trying sexual domination on us and threaten our paycheck with it.
That's why the rules, and the process is in place. Not everyone can just walk out and go on with life as easy as we can ....
Lannis
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The particular incident your recount suggests harassment based on sexual orientation. I question whether the law in your jurisdiction considers such to be illegal, or whether the employer's internal policies address whether such is prohibited.
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You know Lannis, I must have skimmed over the "make a woman outa you" comment, that is a problem. I stand corrected. He needs to know that's not acceptable.
If it were just the hug, not worth getting shit canned over. Tell him not to do that again and document it.
Sorry, but from those comments he made he KNOWS he is doing unacceptable things and he knows he ismgetting away with it.
I have been through this kind of thing with an employee who could just not control his mouth. He lasted about 6 months, eve with his appeals.
It should be reported to HR now. You have no idea if his actions have been reported before and HR is waiting on confirming reports.
A simple hug, while frequently inappropriate, is not always harassment, but, married with her action and his comments it is.
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I work as a supervisor for a major chemical company. Their policy is if you have witnessed anything that could be inappropriate it is your responsibility to report it to HR. Even if the event was not directed at you. Their policy states that if you do nothing then they consider that you condoned the inappropriate behavior. The bank's policy may be totally different. The EEOC has their own take on harassment that I can assure you the heads of that bank do not want to have to deal with. First if they investigate a complaint and find probable cause you do not need a lawyer. They already have plenty at their disposal. Even with our companies policy I am trying to put myself in their position at the bank. The way I see it is total abuse of power over a young woman that most likely needs her job. I am tending to go along with banding together as witnesses if someone wanted to file a complaint with HR. There should be a confidential hot line or other way to make a complaint. Document, document and the ladies need to stick together. Tapes in banks usually only record so much memory at a time. The incident may still be on the tape but will most surely be gone soon. If there HR department is worth a crap and has any sense about what could happen they will act. I feel for the young lady as a father of three grown ladies myself. As a supervisor I do not tolerate inappropriate behavior. Some HR departments, such as ours, actually has a woman that is the corporate worldwide manager. Theirs maybe also! Most likely the only chance of no repercussions is if; all the ladies band together, or he is removed or relocated to another branch, the manager is relieved of his duties.
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My first reaction to the post that Dean read to me was disgust. Unfortunately it takes aging to get to the place where I am today and would have told the bank manager exactly what he could do with his hug and remarks. When I was 24 I too would have said or done nothing; it was the way of business back then. But not today.
Sexual harassment is not about sex. It’s about power. The power one person has over another as in this instance a manager to a subordinate. The 24 year old feels obligated to accept the behavior for fear of losing her job or being treated badly if she shows any resistance. It’s tantamount to quid pro quo where women get to keep their jobs if the manager gets to harass them. And it’s illegal.
Additionally any statement, noise or gestures the manager has made about attractive female customers is sexual harassment not mention cultivating a hostile environment. Again there are laws against it.
I am willing to bet that the bank has a sexual harassment policy in place. It should have been communicated to every employee upon hire and should have clear guidelines (1.) what constitutes harassment and (2.) the steps to take to report the unacceptable behavior.
Tell your wife and the 24 year old to use it and do it now! Tell them to make notes of dates, time and place and any others who may have witnessed the behavior. Tell them to go to HR and verbally require that their discussion be held in strict confidence. (It will be believe me, that is, if the HR dept. has any clue of what it could cost them if they don’t take immediate and appropriate action.)
Neither your wife nor the 24 year old has to confront the manager; that’s HR’s job. They just need to give HR everything they remember about all the instances that have taken place. Then they need to go back to work and see if changes are made. If nothing happens and the behavior continues then have them contact the EEOC.
The EEOC will want all the same information including when and who in HR was notified. The EEOC will take it from there. Nobody at the bank can stop them from taking whatever action they deem necessary to investigate. If the EEOC finds cause, the bank will be penalized and all parties who have filed a claim can obtain attorneys and file civil suits.
Tell your wife not to be afraid, there are at least two who can testify about the manager’s behavior and it needs to stop.
Dean's wife Cindy
Thanks Cindy. "Evil flourishes when good men do nothing'.
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Harassment is harassment no matter what kind nobody should have to tolerate or be uncomfortable in the work place. Since this is a Major Bank, I'm sure this will be resolves rather quickly "If" reported.
Our company has zero tolerance for any form of harassment, we have a 1-800 number to corporate ethics and a investigation is started.
Just two weeks ago we had a branch manager lose his job for harassment, he had only been with our company for a few months and this harassment happened after hours at a bar.....Zero Tolerance! But of course every company I different..
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[snip]This manager is an abusive, pompous ass, and a "bully" type, who in the past numerous times has said innapropriate comments, mostly regarding attractive female customers that enter the bank, and on numerous occasions has yelled at and belittled female employees ,even in front of customers.
.....do you think my wife should take any action with HR, etc. or just let it slide?
[snip
Tell her to take action with the HR folks NOW NOW NOW.
She has already "let it slide" way too long.
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Speaking as someone who is in a position of authority in a business setting, if there is a problem with the highest ranking supervisor on a site, HR should be involved asap. It is only the poorest performing organizations these days that would regard the described situation as tolerable. It is a risk management issue as well as a human rights issue.
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My wife worked as a short order cook and there was always some fooling around in the kitchen. You know,verbal nonsense between adults. One time the owner got a bit touchy with some of the women...My wife said, with a smile, while holding a boning knife, " touch me and I'll cut your f***ing dick off ". The owner got the message.
People need to initially deal with problems at the personal level... Women or men who feel they have been harassed need to tell the harasser to get lost. If the harasser doesn't, then call out the dogs.
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My wife worked as a short order cook and there was always some fooling around in the kitchen. You know,verbal nonsense between adults. One time the owner got a bit touchy with some of the women...My wife said, with a smile, while holding a boning knife, " touch me and I'll cut your f***ing dick off ". The owner got the message.
People need to initially deal with problems at the personal level... Women or men who feel they have been harassed need to tell the harasser to get lost. If the harasser doesn't, then call out the dogs.
The problem with this approach is that if the harasser is in a position of power, they can doctor up a case for discipline or termination of the person who complained. Then the harasser has a ready defense to any subsequent accusations -- that the person complaining is trying to save their job with false accusations. While it is hard to believe that in this day and age, this is simply a matter of, "If he knew better, he would do better," this is a management issue and it is for management, not a rank-and-file employee, to make the call whether the offending manager can be rehabilitated or should be let go.
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The problem with this approach is that if the harasser is in a position of power, they can doctor up a case for discipline or termination of the person who complained. Then the harasser has a ready defense to any subsequent accusations -- that the person complaining is trying to save their job with false accusations. While it is hard to believe that in this day and age, this is simply a matter of, "If he knew better, he would do better," this is a management issue and it is for management, not a rank-and-file employee, to make the call whether the offending manager can be rehabilitated or should be let go.
Sometimes you have to man up ,do what has to be done and take your chances. If someone was bulling you,and sexual harassment is bulling, would would confront the bully? Besides most states,like NY, are "at will employment".. meaning the employer needs no reason to terminate employment unless there is contract stating otherwise.
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Employment lawyer here. The correct answer to questions like these is always "consult with a qualified attorney." The law is not simple. There is a reason why law school lasts three years. Internet forum posts from laymen are totally useless and more likely to do harm than good.
Unless things have changed, there is a very short time period during which a plaintiff can take action.
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Sometimes you have to man up ,do what has to be done and take your chances. If someone was bulling you,and sexual harassment is bulling, would would confront the bully? Besides most states,like NY, are "at will employment".. meaning the employer needs no reason to terminate employment unless there is contract stating otherwise.
"Man up?" In a thread about harassment of women? Good grief! ::)
Speaking from 30 years' experience as a labor and employment law attorney, I think you are being naive. Any guy today who routinely harasses women in the workplace knows exactly what he is doing, and exactly what to do to build a case for discharge against an underling who speaks to him about it "privately" (i.e., without witnesses) and thereby identifies herself as a litigation threat. At-will employment is irrelevant to this point. Firing an employee for "any or no reason" is not going to cut it as a defense to a sex discrimination lawsuit. A manger who thinks he is at risk for such a charge is quite capable of papering an employee's file in anticipation of defending such a lawsuit -- at least if nobody from HR or upper management knows of the harassment. That's one of many reasons why upper management and/or HR needs to get involved.
"Take your chances?" Why should anyone have to put their employment at risk when it is THEIR legal rights that are being violated? To satisfy your personal notion of fair play? This is not a misunderstanding between friends, or a minor dispute among neighbors, where the parties are on equal footing and can "talk it out." Sexual harassment is an abuse of authority; the act itself betrays any notions of fair play. It is not a personal matter -- it is a personnel matter, and the appropriate management employees in charge of such matters should be given the necessary information so they can do their jobs.
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Craig , you are correct , but I think Rough is referring the basic masculine response in these situations , not suggesting that women are inferior . Hell , I want to punch the manager also , even though it probably solves
nothing ;D
Dusty
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Craig , you are correct , but I think Rough is referring the basic masculine response in these situations , not suggesting that women are inferior . Hell , I want to punch the manager also , even though it probably solves
nothing ;D
Dusty
What Dusty says. Unreal.... I did not imply women are inferior, just using common terms like "how are you guys doing" even though there can be women present. Naive? With respect to other opinions, I was an union construction skilled tradesman and the job and people are a bit rough.You know ,wear dirty work clothes and crap in out houses and eat your lunch standing up without washing your hands.. There were women on the job so occasionally sexual harassment came up. Sometimes the situation came before the union business agents and at least one became a big deal with lawsuits. But generally the problems were solved on the jobsite.
It's my opinion we have become too dependent on third parties to solve problems that can be resolved on the spot.
In closing, I think the penalty for punching someone in the mouth in too severe..... ;D
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Rough , I don't make a habit of punching anyone , really pretty peaceful , but yeah , sometimes our blue collar ways are effective ;D In this particular case , with this particular guy , probably a word , or maybe like my dog does , placing a body in front of the manager would have prevented her discomfort and made it clear that his behavior was unacceptable . What is the old axiom about an ounce of prevention ?
Dusty
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Dean, please tell Cindy, "Thank you," from me. Appreciate her comments.
Rick, the guy has "earned" what he "gets" (a harassment complaint). Encourage your wife to gather offended parties together and file a report with HR, et. al. Your wife may find there are men wanting to support the claim, too. I would if I had been witness to the behavior.
Good luck!
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Rough , I don't make a habit of punching anyone , really pretty peaceful , but yeah , sometimes our blue collar ways are effective ;D In this particular case , with this particular guy , probably a word , or maybe like my dog does , placing a body in front of the manager would have prevented her discomfort and made it clear that his behavior was unacceptable . What is the old axiom about an ounce of prevention ?
Dusty
Last time I was in a fight was a bar many years ago...I am peaceful but will stand up for myself if pushed. One of our grand daughters is in her third year at college on a lacrosse scholarship. She's attractive so guys hit on her, she is flattered of course. One guy went too far and she put him down with a shot to the groin...Word got around and the coach talked to her explaining the procedure to deal with sexual harassment. She said " I took care of the problem in 3 seconds...."
Obviously punching people can get you in a lot of trouble....Doing nothing when being bullied can lead to more bulling....You make the call...
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If your wife or her 24 year old colleague will not put in a complaint. They should now start recording any occurrences when they are alone with that manager.
Most cell phones have voice memos apps that will record conversations from inside your pocket.
One good recording could be the end for that manager -no arguments.
Why play fair eh?
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ooooh man. before I retired I was almost on the other side of an EEO complaint.
It was more a power play / mutiny thing among four female subordinates. It sorta backfired when when one of the ladies said that she was drafted in their cause (and wasn't usually a part of their regular rudeness and bickering). She later outed them to the Deputy. Another one complained she didn't get an interview for a promotion, only to discover that she didn't apply for the right job and never gave me a hint she was interested (I would've helped her apply for it).
When I was called into the Deputy Director's office at the beginning, she (yes- she) told me that she would be investigating official. I have a strong inclination she hired me in the first place to deal with these personality issues. I reminded her that I asked for her help when I started because there was such deep seated animosity and that she had replied at the time "those women are always a problem."
The Deputy gave me a very odd look when I reminded her of that during the meeting.
Anyway, in a typical workplace environs, one my my male subordinates three months later told me I was "in the clear" but I never heard back from my boss, management, HR or from the Deputy about it ever again. I remember one of the two remaining complainants say that this was all a "whitewash"; she was able to transfer and she admitted that she was burned out.
Later, I was invited to Christmas party after I retired and the last one said how she missed me as the boss which she repeated again at a later social (and I believed her). She denies she was ever apart of the complaints (but I didn't believe that).
Frankly, it was such a stressful job for this among many other legitimate reasons, I really didn't care if they canned me and transferred me to another job. They played hell filling it when I left and weren't able to get an experienced supervisor to take my place.
so it goes.
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Anyone can report improper actions to HR. Document, document, document. Copy emails, statements. Document who/what/where/when.
She has two witnesses. What's the hesitation? Waiting for someone else 'to do something'?
Thanks Goose, my wife has worked for this bank for 13 years. This manager has been there longer than her. Had my wife documented all the instances the way you recommend, this incident that happened a few days ago would be the "last nail in the coffin" for this guy. I mean the guy is so stupid, and arrogant that he is not careful at all about covering his ass at all. Ive told her to document everything in a "blog" that she can refer back to with dates, time , witnesses, etc. She has been documenting things now for a couple of months. this is a small town, the bank is the only "real" bank in town. There are a few credit unions, but no other full service national banks.
Needless to say if my wife, and her co worker decide to do something, they have to go all out, and "go for the throat" of this guy, with hope of getting him fired ,or transferred at the least.
Working there after filing an HR complaint against this jerk would be almost impossible. He would make their life miserable, and most likely try to find a reason to get rid of my wife, and the other tellers involved. She is going to have a serious talk with the 24 year old gal to see what she wants to do. She is not sure wether it would be a good time to go for the guy's throat, or wait,until the guy does something else, possibly more serious, that they can document, and gather more "ammunition" that the HR dept can use to get rid of him.
There was an incident that happened a few years ago, where the bank rented a van, to transport the employees to another town 130 miles away, for a corporate awards ceremony. The manager in question was the driver of the van. my wife, 4-5 other female employees, and one male teller were passengers. after the event , the manager decided to stop at an Indian casino on the way home, where a bit of gambling and drinking of alcohol took place. My wife did not drink any alcohol, but the Manager(driver) did have a few. The drive home after that was very scary, he was speeding , going 80 mph on 45-50 mph 2 lane roads, and driving recklessly. my wife an a few others kept telling him to slow down, he shrugged it off , and paid no attention. when he stopped at a town 50 miles from home to use the restroom, everyone in the van requested someone else drive the rest of the way home, and thank God another teller drove them the rest of the way home, in a much safer fashion. This would have been a good opportunity to get this idiot into" hot water", as the bank does not allow alcohol consumption at any company sponsored event.
all the employees kept their mouths shut about the incident. when my wife got home around 1 AM and told me what happened I was pissed, I told her someone should have discreetly called 911 and had the van pulled over, while he was behind the wheel.
Im sure its too late now, but i mentioned this incident so you folks can see the stupid stuff this guy has done.
Thanks for all the great advice, and insight.
Rick.
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Banks have cameras everywhere....was any of it caught on a security camera?
I am sure it was, but i dont believe they record audio. Not that the audio portion would make much difference, since there are 2 witnesses, that heard him state" Im going to make a woman out of you yet"
Rick.
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Where I work (Fortune 100 company) we take sexual harassment training every two years so that there is no question what is and isn't harassment. The bottom line is that it all gets directed to HR to act upon. Where I work, that manager would be out the door in about 10 minutes.
That said, the local papers are full of companies and govt agencies where you'd think we were back in the 1950's (and not in a good way). Freightliner just settled a massive complaint with the state over a decade of harassment of employees that their HR group ignored (who knew that swastikas would be so popular with a German owned company?). The state Bureau of Labor and Industry (BOLI) is the last resort for workers in situations like this.
I agree that the issue is that the tellers feel uncomfortable and that this is clearly a pattern.
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First question:
Is your wife personally offended enough by the work environment & the manager to file a personal grievance against the guy?
Or
Is she concerned for the young lady and wants to help/support her in her claim?
If your wife feels it impacts her work to the point the needs to file a claim.. She is well within her rights to contact corprate HR.. Skip trying to have the 'come to Jesus' lecture with the manager... Direct confrontation is HIGHLY unlikely to change his behavior, more likely single her out to be picked on
If she wants to help/support the young teller, she needs to communicate with this girl & let her know she 'has her back' is willing to provide statements to HR etc... But it is on the girl to initiate the claim. Independently going around the girl directly to HR or the manager "on her behalf"... That is asking for trouble.
Oddly, I have even seen situations where the 'victim' becomes resentful at those trying to help... If your wife raises a big stink and the girl in question doesn't even want to pursue it.. Your wife will end up being the 'rat' 'busybody' 'troublemaker' 'nosey' of the office! Even if her intentions are good
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
surely the best way is for the 24 y/0 teller to file the complaint, with my wife, and another teller as witnesses. My wife is talking to her today, to see if she has the "balls" to do it. my wife is 56 years old, and does have the balls to do it herself, but wants to do the smartest thing, in this case, because she feels once the "bomb is dropped" things at work are gonna get pretty difficult for them. Another thing to consider is the young gal needs the job,and paycheck, she is a single parent. the younger tellers at work kind of look up to my wife as the senior teller, she sort of takes the newbies under her wing, to train them, try to help them avoid pitfalls, etc.
They look to her alot for advice, since she is very experienced, and has a sort of "motherly demeanor" with the younger gals.
Rick.
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Yes Rick , this a tough deal . I will offer to kick the guy in his huevos , being a nice guy and all . Seriously , seems like your wife is handling this right , make sure she knows that a bunch of greasy old motorsickle riders are on their side .
Dusty
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Dean/Cindy Rose.... Thank you very much for taking the time to lend your expertise, and sound advice in this difficult situation, My wife and I really, really appreciate it!
My wife will speak to the 24 y/o co worker today away from the workplace to see if she want to report this. My wife wants it to be her decision , and my wife and the other teller/witness will support her 100%. This Manager has told my wife,in the past, and other employees at the bank that no one should ever contact HR. He has told them that all problems need to be addressed directly with him, and that the regional manager supports him, in this belief, and will back him up always. He has said this several times, to different employees, stating" You are either on MY TEAM, or you are off the team" He has made an analogy using football, saying he is the coach, and all the players have to have loyalty to him, and that he will not tolerate anyone who is not 100% loyal to him, and "On his team". This guy is a real piece of work! a real bully, and control freak, that tries to use fear, to manipulate his subordinates.
As you can see, Cindy, this guy is not one, that anyone who submits a complaint against him, would be able to work for him again.
Someone mentioned that possibly Mrs. Manager should know about his behavior, he is single, never been married,and lives with his elderly mother.
Thanks again, Cindy.
Rick.
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I just want to thank everyone who posted . Excellent information, and advice, that my wife is taking very seriously. I will be back on here , late this evening, reading all the posts to my wife,that she has yet to read, and answering the questions folks have posted.
thank you all!!
Rick.
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Good luck to your wife, Rick. I can't add anything to what others have posted.
Jeez, having to work for a living and to also put up with this nonsense . . . I feel sorry for this young woman.
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Yes Rick , this a tough deal . I will offer to kick the guy in his huevos , being a nice guy and all . Seriously , seems like your wife is handling this right , make sure she knows that a bunch of greasy old motorsickle riders are on their side .
Dusty
Thank You, Dusty, appreciate your offer! ;D Some people definitely can benefit from a well placed kick to the "huevos", for sure.
And thanks for your support, and the support from the rest of the group. My wife really appreciates it, and also has alot of respect for you guys, and values your opinion.
Many times when we are trying to figgur someting out, she tells me" Why dont you ask your Guzzi friends? Those guys know everything!" LOL.
Thanks Rick.
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I'm sorry that there aren't other places to work. No one should have to work in a place like that.
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The professional training I have had, as most that work in corporate America have had, clearly stated that the offensive actions need to be treated as such. Meaning, as the trainer said, that you can't accept the behavior and then suddenly not like it and complain to HR expecting a head to roll. He told us HR needs to be notified, but will probably only give a warning if there has been no other complaints. Even a comment such as "excuse me, this is a business, not a bar" is sufficient notification that the behavior is not acceptable.
So, my take is the teller, or anyone else experiencing the environment not just the recipient, needs to let the perpetrator know it is unacceptable and unwelcome. HR needs to be notified what happened, when, who was there, and what was said to let the perpetrator know to stop. Then if there is continued harassment or retribution, the upper management will have no choice to act quickly and sternly and protect the person making the complaint.
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Rick,
It was my pleasure to offer my help with your wife’s and co-workers situation. Dean has kept me informed of the responses to your post and unfortunately all but a very few “get it”.
I can’t urge your wife and others enough, who have been subjected to this man’s behavior to take action. Your latest description describes a “workplace predator” and I could go into some of the psychological reasons for his behavior but what’s important here is workplace security. There are significant reasons why there are laws in place to prevent the environment this man is cultivating.
Tell your wife that both HR and ( if they get involved the EEOC) will only want to talk with people who they themselves have been subjected to statements or actions or who have over heard them, or who have witnessed his behavior. No hearsay will be accepted. But from what you have written I suspect that there are quite a few who fall into one of the categories. Also I strongly recommend they report his admonitions about not contacting HR as this all supports his supremacy dominance.
And just as a side note, neither your wife nor any other employee under his supervision is on a football team. But if they were his behavior would still be illegal.
I do not recommend that your wife or the 24 year old canvas coworkers for support. They each independently should contact HR. Then what should happen is HR will conduct an investigation and speak with everyone who is under this man’s management; they will ask general questions such as “have you ever heard or seen anything in the workplace of a sexual or intimidating nature etc. HR should never direct the questions around a specific situation that would hint which employee(s) was involved.
Tell your wife and the other coworker to tell no one about their involvement. Period. If HR finds evidence of the gross misconduct they will, under law be required to remedy the situation and in my opinion that would result in firing the manager and his boss if he was aware of the behavior.
As I stated before that once HR has been notified they must act immediately, which means within days to conduct their investigation and give their assessment to the complaining employees. If they a.) do nothing or b.) give excuses instead of action have your wife and coworker contact the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission: http://www.eeoc.gov/federal/fed_employees/filing_complaint.cfm
There are plenty of attorneys who will try and say the EEOC is not on your side but the truth is that any attorney who tries to take a case to court who hasn’t had cause found by the EEOC is almost sure to lose. See my previous post for what is considered appropriate actions.
Also I need to mention that once the EEOC is involved if any, and I mean any, adverse action is taken (this can be statements as well as actions) against any employee who has complained the EEOC will step in and protect that employee.
One final word, I can’t express how important it is to have documentation of any of the events that have taken place. Date, time, who was there, what was said, action taken, by whom what they said or did, their reaction etc. All this can be from memory it’s not like people go around documenting what they do every day, no one is expected to have a journal. It’s OK for the coworker and your wife to discuss this together but I suggest it be done off site.
And finally your wife and coworker will need support, but it sounds as if your wife already has it.
CindyR
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The man is clearly a phesterhead. Get your ducks in a row and get him dealt with. These sort of wankers can't be reformed, only dealt with, in a legal fashion. Although getting him in a squirrel grip and giving them a tug would be very satisfying!
Pete
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Yes, this is already a hostile work environment and needs to be dealt with or everyone will just be miserable due to the creep for a boss.
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Nothing worse than working with a member of the he woman man haters club. We have gotten so thin skinned. They all need to shut up and do thier J.O.B.
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Nothing worse than working with a member of the he woman man haters club. We have gotten so thin skinned. They all need to shut up and do thier J.O.B.
So you're cool with a manager using his authority to coerce a female employee into unwanted physical contact, while making a snide remark about her sexuality? Okay, good to know. ;-T
/sarcasm
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"Nothing worse than working with a member of the he woman man haters club. We have gotten so thin skinned. They all need to shut up and do thier J.O.B."
Would that be your advice to your own 24 year old daughter if you had one?
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I'll stand by John here in voicing my own opinion that while the manager sounds like a jerk, made a snide comment, and forced himself in with an unwanted hug - the whole event seems to be blown waaaay out of proportion. It's a hug, for god's sake. As for the comment- it was crass and inappropriate. Do you really think someone must lose their job over one comment (no fair claiming the reported prior comments- the man has to be brought on charges for what went on that day. Prior hearsay is inadmissable)?
Remember our system here before you decide to burn me at the stake also- everyone deserves a vigorous defense. If the person has not been made aware that his comments can be construed as offensive, then he is due a warning. After that, I guess you could subject him to a series of sensitivity workshops. This alone should be enough to cause him to selfimmolate or run out into traffic.
In the grand scheme of things, I refuse to see how this work environment of being a teller in a suburban bank is somehow unbearably abusive and demeaning. Get a grip, folks. What about the poor souls who have to work in soul crushing assembly line factories? How about back breaking field work? How about mining? Do you really think folks are concerned about potentially offensive overtones when they are a mile underground listening for the creaks and groans that might mean they are about to be buried alive?
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It really is a sad thing that we have to actually deal with sexual harrasment in the first place... but it's a matter of common sense when it comes down to it. Don't touch anyone you work with in a work environment, and even out of work, you can't touch touch anyone who is under you. Period. It's not that hard.
If he can't figure that out then maybe he needs to get fired to learn his lesson.
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I'll stand by John here in voicing my own opinion that while the manager sounds like a jerk, made a snide comment, and forced himself in with an unwanted hug - the whole event seems to be blown waaaay out of proportion. It's a hug, for god's sake. As for the comment- it was crass and inappropriate. Do you really think someone must lose their job over one comment (no fair claiming the reported prior comments- the man has to be brought on charges for what went on that day. Prior hearsay is inadmissable)?
Remember our system here before you decide to burn me at the stake also- everyone deserves a vigorous defense. If the person has not been made aware that his comments can be construed as offensive, then he is due a warning. After that, I guess you could subject him to a series of sensitivity workshops. This alone should be enough to cause him to selfimmolate or run out into traffic.
In the grand scheme of things, I refuse to see how this work environment of being a teller in a suburban bank is somehow unbearably abusive and demeaning. Get a grip, folks. What about the poor souls who have to work in soul crushing assembly line factories? How about back breaking field work? How about mining? Do you really think folks are concerned about potentially offensive overtones when they are a mile underground listening for the creaks and groans that might mean they are about to be buried alive?
You are ignoring the reports of prior past inappropriate behavior by this manager. That's not hearsay if it is told by those who witnessed or experienced it -- its what is known as a pattern or practice, and it can get the company in deep do-do if they do nothing about it. The employees do not even have to go to higher management with this first before launching lawsuits -- the fact that this was done by a person with management authority makes it the actions of the company for liability purposes, even if the company has policies against this behavior.
Your equation of sexual harassment with the normal dangers, risks and discomforts of various jobs is disconcerting. Forcing women to run a gauntlet of harassment in order to get a paycheck is not a legitimate component of ANY job. I can't imagine your attitude being so sanguine if it was your young daughter coming home every night and telling you about the latest indignities she had to suffer at work.
Yes, it used to be different. In "The Good 'Ol Days" (TM), you could call your female underlings "sugartits," and be met with nothing more than the laughter of other managers. We used to have child labor, asbestos, and a seven-day workweek, too.
Was this part of a pattern of unwanted sexual attention? An innocent mistake? Was it unbearably abusive or blown waaaaaaay (or waaaay, or waay, or simply, way) out of proportion? Should the manager lose his job over this? You raise the question, and it's a good question -- one that none of us is qualified to answer. More particularly, should this manager be fired, suspended, given a written warning, required to attend some sensitivity training, put on probation, given an informal warning, or some other (or no) corrective action? That's a management decision for those in authority in this company to decide, after gathering the facts. However, if no employee voices their concerns about this manager to HR and/or upper management, how do you propose that be accomplished?
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Before I started doing employment law, I thought there was a ton of racial discrimination, but that the fuss about sexual discrimination was just a bunch of whining. I found out it was pretty much the other way around. I saw a lot of really grotesque sexual discrimination, but I never got one good racial case.
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I have confronted a lot of bosses, and I have never regretted doing so. In this case, a simple aside might get the job done, and it doesn't preclude official action in HR. I'm certain the bank has cameras everywhere so it should be recorded.
Bottom line for me is, jobs are just not as important as my integrity. And I have the 8 page resume to prove it. ::) I won't be belittled in any way by a boss. (though I take heat well from co- and underlings)
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I have confronted a lot of bosses, and I have never regretted doing so. In this case, a simple aside might get the job done, and it doesn't preclude official action in HR. I'm certain the bank has cameras everywhere so it should be recorded.
Bottom line for me is, jobs are just not as important as my integrity. And I have the 8 page resume to prove it. ::) I won't be belittled in any way by a boss. (though I take heat well from co- and underlings)
:+1
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You are ignoring the reports of prior past inappropriate behavior by this manager. That's not hearsay if it is told by those who witnessed or experienced it -- its what is known as a pattern or practice, and it can get the company in deep do-do if they do nothing about it. The employees do not even have to go to higher management with this first before launching lawsuits -- the fact that this was done by a person with management authority makes it the actions of the company for liability purposes, even if the company has policies against this behavior.
Your equation of sexual harassment with the normal dangers, risks and discomforts of various jobs is disconcerting. Forcing women to run a gauntlet of harassment in order to get a paycheck is not a legitimate component of ANY job. I can't imagine your attitude being so sanguine if it was your young daughter coming home every night and telling you about the latest indignities she had to suffer at work.
Yes, it used to be different. In "The Good 'Ol Days" (TM), you could call your female underlings "sugartits," and be met with nothing more than the laughter of other managers. We used to have child labor, asbestos, and a seven-day workweek, too.
Was this part of a pattern of unwanted sexual attention? An innocent mistake? Was it unbearably abusive or blown waaaaaaay (or waaaay, or waay, or simply, way) out of proportion? Should the manager lose his job over this? You raise the question, and it's a good question -- one that none of us is qualified to answer. More particularly, should this manager be fired, suspended, given a written warning, required to attend some sensitivity training, put on probation, given an informal warning, or some other (or no) corrective action? That's a management decision for those in authority in this company to decide, after gathering the facts. However, if no employee voices their concerns about this manager to HR and/or upper management, how do you propose that be accomplished?
Understood and well put. Your response is more reasoned than many of the statements above- where the posters here have already tried and convicted the manager.
I don't have a young daughter and this "victim" is no one's "young daughter". She is a woman. If she wants some respect - irrespective of corporate CYA-let'sallsitaroundinacir cleandtalkitout she should speak for herself. From what's been said so far- she has not "run a gauntlet"- this was a first offense in her case. The other female coworkers did NOT report other cases, so they remain undocumented hearsay.
As far as comparing this "abuse" with the risks and discomforts of other jobs, that's a light look of some of the demeaning, arduous, and truly hazardous work that some people find they have to do to put food on the table. I'll stand by it.
In the end- I get it. I work for a large corporation now and yes I had to take sensitivity training and no I don't call people "sugartits." Miraculously, I didn't even call people "sugartits" before I took the sensitivity training. Yes, I understand that touching a female co worker under any circumstances- even an unintended brush- could be used at any time against me. This is one reason why I cross myself that I do not have to work in an office. My female co workers are really cool people whom I get along with well, so I'm not paranoid. Nevertheless, if I did work in an office environment and if one of my female co workers was of victim age, i can assure you I would not step within a 2' boundary of her and I would never, ever make a joke about anything. I would never, ever, discuss anything outside of work. To a certain extent, we have created a politically correct work environment in which "anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law". Swell.
*fixed quotes -R59
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OK, I've been keeping my mouth shut on this one.
I think Dean/Cindy, Youcan, Pasta have pretty much covered my thoughts.
Boat - I DO ACTUALLY UNDERTAND YOUR OBJECTION - i.e. that we've created a overly politically correct society where it is easy to over-react and/or the ramifications of POSSIBLY innocent actions can get someone in deep doo. I do agree that's a risk.
BUT BUT BUT - I think it is a much greater risk to allow emotional and/or physical abuses of power that comes with authority in the workplace.
I haven't tried and convicted the manager in my mind - EXCEPT that I have taken an acquaintance at his word (and his loved one's word) that this was just one incident in a long pattern of incidents. As such, yeah, I strongly suspect he's guilty as all shyte and that the ladies should pursue this.
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To a certain extent, we have created a politically correct work environment in which "anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law". Swell.
Yep.
PC SUCKS!
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTZciW8hBuTVbkte9wNlz0kqO--0qU-JtWqp4Sfq32FTzC3AGOe)
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Of course the young lady could have just said' no, I prefer to shake hands!!
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Hmm , this thread has taken an odd turn ???
Dusty
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Of course the young lady could have just said' no, I prefer to shake hands!!
I think it is easy for a man, especially an assertive one, to think that.
But let's read the report again:
As the manager walked up to the gal to hand her the tickets, she said thank you,and held out her hand to shake his hand, at this point the guy opens his arms wide, and tells her" Women dont shake hands, women hug" he then gave her a hug. after hugging her he states" I am going to make a woman out of you yet!"
1. The young lady TRIED - she stuck out her hand.
2. The MANAGER (her boss, person in position of power) ignored that and then decided to tell HER what "Women" do? (isn't that potentially in and of itself insulting?)
3. Then AFTER hugging her says "I'm going to make a woman out of you"? SERIOUSLY? WTF does that mean in the context of correcting her and hugging her instead of a handshake:
a. Traditional social reference of sex/coming of age into womanhood?
b. I know you're gay, but I'll hug you straight?
c. You're too dumb to know that women hug?
d. You're not a real woman cause you're gay?
Is there an innocent way to interpret those words?
If what we are hearing from a 3rd party witness is even remotely accurate, he crossed the line in multiple ways.
And you have to understand PERSONALLY I think rabid feminists are frickin' nutz and make a big deal of out of crap that they shouldn't.
But I don't get the impression that's what's going on here.
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What Kev m said . Let's not spin this into a man hating situation , or "well , she could have..." This guy is a dick .
PC , who gives a flying #$%&, , have yet to figure out what that even means .
Dusty
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Sexual orientation is not relavent. As a clinical supervisor at a very large medical center I was required to take managerial classes which included sexual harassment.
I told a story in the class that I had experienced and did not know how to handle. I saw a clear violation of sexual harassment take place just 3 feet from me in another department. It was blatantly disgusting. After the event I approached the women who was touched very inappropriately by a man. I told her I saw what happened and that if she needed a witness I would be glad to assist. I was a supervisor but neither her supervisor nor the man who touched her.
So I told to story during the training session and this was the response I received. 1. I did the only proper thing I could to which was address this woman in private and tell her I would be a witness. I was told it was up to her to take the incident up the chain.
Now if this had happened in my department and the man was under my supervision then I could have written him up.
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Sexual orientation is not relavent. As a clinical supervisor at a very large medical center I was required to take managerial classes which included sexual harassment.
In this particular case it is relevant in the fact that it is potentially a subject the manager was bringing up (and if so that just makes his case worse).
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Sexual orientation is not relavent. As a clinical supervisor at a very large medical center I was required to take managerial classes which included sexual harassment.
I told a story in the class that I had experienced and did not know how to handle. I saw a clear violation of sexual harassment take place just 3 feet from me in another department. It was blatantly disgusting. After the event I approached the women who was touched very inappropriately by a man. I told her I saw what happened and that if she needed a witness I would be glad to assist. I was a supervisor but neither her supervisor nor the man who touched her.
So I told to story during the training session and this was the response I received. 1. I did the only proper thing I could to which was address this woman in private and tell her I would be a witness. I was told it was up to her to take the incident up the chain.
Now if this had happened in my department and the man was under my supervision then I could have written him up.
That's where the chain of command BROKE. As a supervisor you had the responsibility of your position to ensure that type of behaviour would not be tolerated in the workplace. The victim shouldn't have been asked to report it.
Dean
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That's where the chain of command BROKE. As a supervisor you had the responsibility of your position to ensure that type of behaviour would not be tolerated in the workplace. The victim shouldn't have been asked to report it.
Dean
Interesting that you disagree with the managerial training department at Duke University. They told me I acted appropriately and unless the woman wanted to make a claim I had no option. In fact they complimented me on my actions letting the woman know in private that I witnessed the event. Neither employee was under my supervision. That was the deal breaker. Had it occurred with people who where under my supervision then I could make the call myself and report it. And yes it is up to the woman to report it. If you are mugged on the street and someone calls the cops and you say forget it there is nothing the cops can do.
The victim (unless otherwise incapacitated) speaks for themselves.
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Kev pretty much summed up my feelings better than I could post.
As I posted earlier as a salaried employee I am obligated to report any form of abuse even if not directed towards me. If I don't company policy is I condoned the behavior.
That may be Duke University policy but it is definitely not my corporation's policy when it comes to supervisors or above.
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If you are mugged on the street and someone calls the cops and you say forget it there is nothing the cops can do.
The victim (unless otherwise incapacitated) speaks for themselves.
I'm NOT sure that example is true.
I don't know if it's the difference between civil and criminal matters, or if some criminal matters are categorized differently etc. But there are definitely cases where it is out of the victim's hands and it's up to the cops and/or DA to pursue a matter.
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Interesting that you disagree with the managerial training department at Duke University. They told me I acted appropriately and unless the woman wanted to make a claim I had no option. In fact they complimented me on my actions letting the woman know in private that I witnessed the event. Neither employee was under my supervision. That was the deal breaker. Had it occurred with people who where under my supervision then I could make the call myself and report it. And yes it is up to the woman to report it. If you are mugged on the street and someone calls the cops and you say forget it there is nothing the cops can do.
The victim (unless otherwise incapacitated) speaks for themselves.
I don’t portend to be an expert in law but I disagree with your idea that, “If you are mugged on the street and someone calls the cops and you say forget it there is nothing the cops can do.” I believe that as officers of the court when they know a crime has been committed they are bound by law to act. Likewise you as a member of management had an obligation to act. But what you are saying is that Duke University condones sexual harassment unless someone complains. Interesting
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I'm NOT sure that example is true.
I don't know if it's the difference between civil and criminal matters, or if some criminal matters are categorized differently etc. But there are definitely cases where it is out of the victim's hands and it's up to the cops and/or DA to pursue a matter.
Victims of domestic abuse pass all time on pressing charges against their partners and spouses.
Unless someone commits another crime in the process of mugging you then the police cannot charge someone unless Kev M presses charges. If the victim refuses to testify then what is left?
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Victims of domestic abuse pass all time on pressing charges against their partners and spouses.
Unless someone commits another crime in the process of mugging you then the police cannot charge someone unless Kev M presses charges. If the victim refuses to testify then what is left?
In cases of domestic abuse ,in many states , OK included , the responding officer presses charges against the guilty party .
Dusty
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I don’t portend to be an expert in law but I disagree with your idea that, “If you are mugged on the street and someone calls the cops and you say forget it there is nothing the cops can do.” I believe that as officers of the court when they know a crime has been committed they are bound by law to act. Likewise you as a member of management had an obligation to act. But what you are saying is that Duke University condones sexual harassment unless someone complains. Interesting
If the woman refused to press charges then anything I say is meaningless. She has to press charges against this guy or there is no case. No one can be fired or disciplined for sexual harassment if their is no victim. So you go ahead and report something you saw and if the person you saw said nothing happened then nothing happened. End of story.
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Victims of domestic abuse pass all time on pressing charges against their partners and spouses.
Unless someone commits another crime in the process of mugging you then the police cannot charge someone unless Kev M presses charges. If the victim refuses to testify then what is left?
Incorrect (I know this from my cop friends, but I'll add citations because it's a discussion - if police evidence a crime has been committed the partner or spouse will still be arrested on the spot - i.e. if they are called for abuse, and one person has cuts, bruises, or other signs of physical abuse, the partner is arrested no matter what the spouse then wants):
http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/can-someone-be-prosecuted-domestic-violence-even-if-v
When Domestic Violence Victims Refuse to Testify
What happens when a person is being prosecuted for committing a domestic violence crime against the person’s spouse, and the spouse invokes the spousal testimonial privilege to avoid testifying about the alleged abuse? Can the defendant still be prosecuted?
The short answer is yes. A prosecutor can continue prosecuting a defendant even though the alleged victim cannot be compelled to testify. Whether the prosecutor will want to go forward with prosecuting a defendant when the alleged victim-spouse invokes the privilege to avoid testifying is another matter.
Is there other evidence?
The prosecutor’s decision of whether to proceed with the prosecution when the alleged victim has invoked the spousal testimonial privilege will often depend on the strength of other evidence in the case. Such evidence may include photographs of the spouse’s injuries, such as bruises, scratches, or black eyes. Even though the defendant’s spouse will not testify, police officers and medical professionals may testify as to any injuries that they observed on the spouse. In some states, witnesses may testify to statements made by the spouse to police, medical providers, and others.
Similarly if there are witnesses to a mugging, theft, etc. it's up to the cops. Hell, think about it, it's not like a murder victim usually gets the chance to "press charges". ;)
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If the woman refused to press charges then anything I say is meaningless. She has to press charges against this guy or there is no case. No one cannot be fired or disciplined for sexual harassment if their is no victim. So you go ahead and report something you saw and if the person you saw said nothing happened then nothing happened. End of story.
Yes and No.
As I remember MY sexual harassment training (via ABS/Capitol Cities/Disney) you don't have to be the direct victim for the harassment of others to create a "hostile work environment" for YOU.
Simply witnessing the act, making YOU feel uncomfortable CAN be enough (at least for their corporate policy and their interpretation of the laws).
It can include, but is not limited to, an environment where you feel you are being passed over for promotion or opportunity because you are not the recipient of a manager's inappropriate attention.
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Sooo... what this all means is that a swift kick to the guy's huevos might just be the best solution ;) Direct , effective , quick . I like chocolate chip ;D
Dusty
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Yes and No.
As I remember MY sexual harassment training (via ABS/Capitol Cities/Disney) you don't have to be the direct victim for the harassment of others to create a "hostile work environment" for YOU.
Simply witnessing the act, making YOU feel uncomfortable CAN be enough (at least for their corporate policy and their interpretation of the laws).
It can include, but is not limited to, an environment where you feel you are being passed over for promotion or opportunity because you are not the recipient of a manager's inappropriate attention.
Citations for the above:
http://www.aauw.org/what-we-do/legal-resources/know-your-rights-at-work/workplace-sexual-harassment/
Does Title VII protect men from sexual harassment? What about same-sex harassment?
Anyone, male or female, can be a victim of sexual harassment. Sexual harassment is not limited by gender. The victim or the harasser may be a woman or a man, and her or his victim does not have to be of the opposite sex — a man might harass another man, and a woman might harass another woman.
Additionally, harassers are not always direct supervisors. Behavior may still constitute sexual harassment even if the harasser is a co-worker, a supervisor in another area, or even a person not employed in the victim’s workplace. In fact, a victim of sexual harassment does not necessarily have to be the person directly being harassed; the victim could be an employee who is indirectly but negatively affected by the offensive conduct.
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Yes and No.
As I remember MY sexual harassment training (via ABS/Capitol Cities/Disney) you don't have to be the direct victim for the harassment of others to create a "hostile work environment" for YOU.
Simply witnessing the act, making YOU feel uncomfortable CAN be enough (at least for their corporate policy and their interpretation of the laws).
It can include, but is not limited to, an environment where you feel you are being passed over for promotion or opportunity because you are not the recipient of a manager's inappropriate attention.
This is consistent with my training.
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Personally, I take my sexual harassment training from Tom Brady.
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/sexual-harassment/2751966 (http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/sexual-harassment/2751966)
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In cases of domestic abuse ,in many states , OK included , the responding officer presses charges against the guilty party .
Dusty
A lot of states do that very thing Dusty. At a minimum it defuses the situation in the short and takes the perp off the street. But even if the woman's nose is pushed in and she has 2 black eyes the perp walks if the the victim refuses to testify. The circle of violence in domestic abuse cases is one the hardest things to break. It is very complex.
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But even if the woman's nose is pushed in and she has 2 black eyes the perp walks if the the victim refuses to testify. The circle of violence in domestic abuse cases is one the hardest things to break. It is very complex.
The perp walking is not an automatic thing (see above reference). But you're right, it's a problem because it makes it much harder to prosecute.
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A lot of states do that very thing Dusty. At a minimum it defuses the situation in the short and takes the perp off the street. But even if the woman's nose is pushed in and she has 2 black eyes the perp walks if the the victim refuses to testify. The circle of violence in domestic abuse cases is one the hardest things to break. It is very complex.
Used to be true . Now , at least here , the officer can testify in court based on the evidence W/O the victim being present .
Dusty
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Yes and No.
As I remember MY sexual harassment training (via ABS/Capitol Cities/Disney) you don't have to be the direct victim for the harassment of others to create a "hostile work environment" for YOU.
Simply witnessing the act, making YOU feel uncomfortable CAN be enough (at least for their corporate policy and their interpretation of the laws).
It can include, but is not limited to, an environment where you feel you are being passed over for promotion or opportunity because you are not the recipient of a manager's inappropriate attention.
There is a difference between sexual harassment that can be tried in a court of law and corporate policy. Sexual harassment can be both civil and criminal. In the case I saw I thought the man clearly violated the women with his hands and body they way he touched her. Corporate policy may or may not be stricter than legal interpretation of the law. Witnessing sexual harassment is not a civil crime punishable by law. Show me a case where a person has been prosecuted by a witness. If that was true then every single witness of all kinds of crimes could take the perp to court. You witness a murder does that mean you have the right to take the murderer to court? What are your charges? I saw you shoot somebody and it upset me? I am not being snarky hear but how does a witness become a victim?
Are we talking about the same thing or am I misunderstanding you?
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If the woman refused to press charges then anything I say is meaningless. She has to press charges against this guy or there is no case. No one can be fired or disciplined for sexual harassment if their is no victim. So you go ahead and report something you saw and if the person you saw said nothing happened then nothing happened. End of story.
What you witnessed was battery of a sexual nature. You stated that it was “clear violation of sexual harassment that took place 3 feet from you in another department. It was blatantly disgusting. It bothered you enough to confront the victim. But because it did not occur in your jurisdiction you were powerless to help her?
You as a supervisor and witness had the responsibility to notify the Office for Institutional Equity of the incident and whoever condoned your inaction also condoned the abuse.
Now imagine your wife or daughter or your mother having to work with that man every day.
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Used to be true . Now , at least here , the officer can testify in court based on the evidence W/O the victim being present .
Dusty
I am not a lawyer but my understanding is that officer can testify all day long and the defense attorney says your honor where is the victim in this case? If the victim is incapacitated then the state can press charges for the victim But if like a lot of domestic abuse cases the victim refuse to testify the perp walks. Now if the perp is on probation then they go back to the big house for violation of probation. But that is a different legal matter
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There is a difference between sexual harassment that can be tried in a court of law and corporate policy. Sexual harassment can be both civil and criminal. In the case I saw I thought the man clearly violated the women with his hands and body they way he touched her. Corporate policy may or may not be stricter than legal interpretation of the law. Witnessing sexual harassment is not a civil crime punishable by law. Show me a case where a person has been prosecuted by a witness. If that was true then every single witness of all kinds of crimes could take the perp to court. You witness a murder does that mean you have the right to take the murderer to court? What are your charges? I saw you shoot somebody and it upset me? I am not being snarky hear but how does a witness become a victim?
Are we talking about the same thing or am I misunderstanding you?
YES, you're misunderstanding me.
Read the citations I provided to get the gist.
Though, perhaps you inadvertently raised an interesting question.
If someone commits a crime, and I'm witness to said crime, can I sue them for civil damages? I think the answer is maybe... Though good luck collecting.
I think the problem with your original mugging example was that it is criminal and the harassment behavior is generally civil no? I mean it CAN cross into criminal, but generally speaking the creation of a hostile workplace, the unwanted advances alone would generally be considered civil.
But anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but in criminal cases the state NOT THE VICTIM is the plaintiff.
EDIT - to add one more thought. Another big difference between harassment and mugging is that, as one of my citations noted the definition of harassment includes the "creation of a hostile work environment" and though you can't be murdered or mugged indirectly you CAN be part of a hostile work environment without being the direct one harassed.
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I am not a lawyer but my understanding is that officer can testify all day long and the defense attorney says your honor where is the victim in this case? If the victim is incapacitated then the state can press charges for the victim But if like a lot of domestic abuse cases the victim refuse to testify the perp walks.
No, your understanding is not correct.
Again, just think about murder charges. The victim doesn't "testify".
Civil cases require someone who has been victimized to be the plaintiff. Criminal cases do not.
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What's the employee policy manual procedure for this? Should have one, follow it to protect yourself. Whatever his intentions are he needs to be educated.
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What you witnessed was battery of a sexual nature. You stated that it was “clear violation of sexual harassment that took place 3 feet from you in another department. It was blatantly disgusting. It bothered you enough to confront the victim. But because it did not occur in your jurisdiction you were powerless to help her?
You as a supervisor and witness had the responsibility to notify the Office for Institutional Equity of the incident and whoever condoned your inaction also condoned the abuse.
Now imagine your wife or daughter or your mother having to work with that man every day.
NOPE. I sat in the room with a whole lot of women who were also in training and they all understood completely the corporate position.
How can you tell me I had a responsibility to notify a non existent "Office of Institutional Equity" when Duke does not or at least then they did not have such an office.
How can you tell me the I had a responsibility to do something and I was told by the legal team that was in charged with training supervisors that I did the correct thing.
The guy did not attack this women; he very very smoothly moved his body across this women while she was standing in front of a microwave oven. He used the opportunity to touch her in appropriately as he slid by. It was a slick maneuver but not only did he put his hands on her hips but he slid by her touching waist to waist making it appear as if the space was very tight using that as reason for the closeness. It was obvious she did not like it. I could tell when I addressed her in the hallway and she said forget I do not want to go there. You cannot force people to pursue "sexual harassment" if they do not want to.
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It's a shame this guy isn't reading this thread (and a shame his wife if he has one isn't reading it - consequences might be severe indeed!).
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It's a shame this guy isn't reading this thread (and a shame his wife if he has one isn't reading it - consequences might be severe indeed!).
Yeah , but we have been informed that the manager is single and lives with his mom . Not surprising ;) ;) ;)
Dusty
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Yeah , but we have been informed that the manager is single and lives with his mom . Not surprising ;) ;) ;)
Dusty
Ah yes - replace "wife" with "mother" - maybe the same consequences
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Ah yes - replace "wife" with "mother" - maybe the same consequences
:D :D :D
Or maybe the young lady's dad :o
Dusty
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NOPE. I sat in the room with a whole lot of women who were also in training and they all understood completely the corporate position.
How can you tell me I had a responsibility to notify a non existent "Office of Institutional Equity" when Duke does not or at least then they did not have such an office.
How can you tell me the I had a responsibility to do something and I was told by the legal team that was in charged with training supervisors that I did the correct thing.
The guy did not attack this women; he very very smoothly moved his body across this women while she was standing in front of a microwave oven. He used the opportunity to touch her in appropriately as he slid by. It was a slick maneuver but not only did he put his hands on her hips but he slid by her touching waist to waist making it appear as if the space was very tight using that as reason for the closeness. It was obvious she did not like it. I could tell when I addressed her in the hallway and she said forget I do not want to go there. You cannot force people to pursue "sexual harassment" if they do not want to.
I noticed that you didn’t respond to my asking how you’d like your wife or daughter or your mother having to work with that man every day. We have to assume he still had his job supervising and was able to continue his behavior. Kudos.
My reasoning comes from my upbringing as well as training I had in the corporate world along with a wife who, for over 20 years trained, gave seminars and conducted investigations of sexual harassment. She told me about people who just didn’t get it. You are one of them and nothing I say or that the law states will change your view. You are one of those good men who do nothing and allow bad things to happen.
Dean
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Easy fellas , Dean , actually RR90 is a stout defender of women's rights , and really is on the side of good . And Harvey , Dean is the same . Let's not start a fight among allies gentleman .
Dusty
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Why ever should we argue? We all agree that the boss was an asshole who took advantage of his position to victimize women
for the edification of his own ego and the hope that it might result in an intimate act.
He is very desreving of a fist in the face and a boot in the balls, and of course a place in the unemployment line.
On this we all agree. We just have different ideas on how it should be done.
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Easy fellas , Dean , actually RR90 is a stout defender of women's rights , and really is on the side of good .
Dusty
So were Teddy K. and Slick Willie ..... so that's no comfort.
RR90's understanding of the law and the current corporate policies that ensure compliance are a little bit out of date, that's all. He's 7 years older than me, it's been a while since he sat through that training class.
Lannis
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I noticed that you didn’t respond to my asking how you’d like your wife or daughter or your mother having to work with that man every day. We have to assume he still had his job supervising and was able to continue his behavior. Kudos.
My reasoning comes from my upbringing as well as training I had in the corporate world along with a wife who, for over 20 years trained, gave seminars and conducted investigations of sexual harassment. She told me about people who just didn’t get it. You are one of them and nothing I say or that the law states will change your view. You are one of those good men who do nothing and allow bad things to happen.
Dean
My wife, mother and do not have a daughter can make their own decisions and this story is not about them. I am not Michael Dukakis and your question suggests that I need to interfere with my wife's decisions. If this women had wanted to proceed with addressing what happened I would have been a witness. She declined. You do not get it. This woman has a MS degree, is a highly trained qualified medical professional had has the right to make her own decisions. If fact you are telling me I should ignore her decision and violate her decision and overrule her decision and take it to a higher source against her will. Effectively causing her grief she did not want to take on. I honored her decision.
So first she gets violated by some creep and then I force her into something she does not want to do. If I was the supervisor of the creep I would have the right to right him up. In that case I would be charging him with something and the woman would be the witness and not the accuser. Obviously she did not want to be the accuser and she had a right to make that decision herself. All the women in the training room who were supervisors agreed with my stance (and by the way complemented me on addresses the situation with the women. A lot of men I was told would not have stepped forward) says that maybe you have something to learn. Also I was 100% backed by the those teaching the class that i acted appropriately also speaks volumes.
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So were Teddy K. and Slick Willie ..... so that's no comfort.
RR90's understanding of the law and the current corporate policies that ensure compliance are a little bit out of date, that's all. He's 7 years older than me, it's been a while since he sat through that training class.
Lannis
Lannis are you a lawyer?
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RR to be clear, in this discussion I'm not judging your actions.
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Lannis are you a lawyer?
No, but I play one on TV.
I worked hundreds of people over the years and attended dozens of classes given by employment lawyers, watching the harassment laws and work procedures develop over the years. I HAD to know them to do my job.
Everyone else has got it right on this one and you've got it wrong. It's OK, neither one of us is in a position to screw up anyone's career any more because we might be wrong. The OP has got the right info, at this point we're just comparing cranks.
Lannis
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NOPE. I sat in the room with a whole lot of women who were also in training and they all understood completely the corporate position.
How can you tell me I had a responsibility to notify a non existent "Office of Institutional Equity" when Duke does not or at least then they did not have such an office.
How can you tell me the I had a responsibility to do something and I was told by the legal team that was in charged with training supervisors that I did the correct thing.
The guy did not attack this women; he very very smoothly moved his body across this women while she was standing in front of a microwave oven. He used the opportunity to touch her in appropriately as he slid by. It was a slick maneuver but not only did he put his hands on her hips but he slid by her touching waist to waist making it appear as if the space was very tight using that as reason for the closeness. It was obvious she did not like it. I could tell when I addressed her in the hallway and she said forget I do not want to go there. You cannot force people to pursue "sexual harassment" if they do not want to.
Sexual harassment involves inappropriate actions of a sexual or gender-based nature that are both offensive and unwelcome. The test is what would be considered inappropriately sex-based, offensive and unwelcome to a reasonable person, but the person affected must actually believe the particular act to be of a sexual or gender-based nature, offensive and unwelcome. If the "victim" does not claim that the actions were any of those things, it's hard to make a case for sexual harassment. In the context of the "smooth move" that you witnessed, add in the fact that the action is itself equivocal, and you have a bad case to take to HR. To those arguing that the victim's wishes should be ignored in this instance, keep in mind that the consequences for being identified as a victim of sexual harassment are not always beneficial for the victim, so the ultimate decision to identify as the victim should be in the hands of the person directly affected.
For whatever reason, the woman you offered to assist did not want your "help." Outing her as a victim of workplace sexual harassment, either "for her own good," or for "the good of the company," is a tough call. I might second-guess you on this if you had knowledge at the time that the offending male had a history of such conduct, but otherwise, I think you handled the situation appropriately.
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Sexual harassment involves inappropriate actions of a sexual or gender-based nature that are both offensive and unwelcome. The test is what would be considered inappropriately sex-based, offensive and unwelcome to a reasonable person, but the person affected must actually believe the particular act to be of a sexual or gender-based nature, offensive and unwelcome. If the "victim" does not claim that the actions were any of those things, it's hard to make a case for sexual harassment. In the context of the "smooth move" that you witnessed, add in the fact that the action is itself equivocal, and you have a bad case to take to HR. To those arguing that the victim's wishes should be ignored in this instance, keep in mind that the consequences for being identified as a victim of sexual harassment are not always beneficial for the victim, so the ultimate decision to identify as the victim should be in the hands of the person directly affected.
For whatever reason, the woman you offered to assist did not want your "help." Outing her as a victim of workplace sexual harassment, either "for her own good," or for "the good of the company," is a tough call. I might second-guess you on this if you had knowledge at the time that the offending male had a history of such conduct, but otherwise, I think you handled the situation appropriately.
Agreed....
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I agree also. Many people would have just been disgusted and walked away from what you witnessed. My post was to point out the differences between company policies. Our company employees 5k in several countries. the policy is the same at all facilities and even extends out to report abuse if by customer, contractor, guest or salesman. They may not be able to terminate them but they would be banned from all of our sites. I guess our policy is geared towards zero tolerance.
One example at my company that I am familiar with was our Chemical plant manager. He had words with a fellow foreman that I worked with. On a couple of occasions. There was a little animosity between them. The manager which at one time had been our superintendent. The man always treated me with the utmost respect, just saying. He also was a 25 year employee and about as smart as they come. But he held a grudge and could be a bully of sorts. My coworker's wife goes to work for the head office. The manager starts a small harassment campaign against her. Not touching her but badgering her at every opportunity. She reported the abusive behavior to her superintendent which was a woman. They were in the public affairs department. Her boss did nothing. My coworkers wife reported it to corporate HR after the bullying continued. After the investigation both the manager and the superintendent were fired.
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The truly sad part of this is , some folks need a thousand page legal document and formal classroom training to know how we should treat each other . The REALLY sad part , the lesson is apparently too difficult for a few to
learn :(
Dusty
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For whatever reason, the woman you offered to assist did not want your "help." Outing her as a victim of workplace sexual harassment, either "for her own good," or for "the good of the company," is a tough call. I might second-guess you on this if you had knowledge at the time that the offending male had a history of such conduct, but otherwise, I think you handled the situation appropriately.
Thank you. You understand. I had no previous knowledge if this guy had a history of such behavior. It was lunch and I was in an office. People were milling about everywhere getting their lunches. The women was standing in front of a microwave and I was talking to someone else.The guy slipped through the "tight spot" and did his thing in just a matter of seconds it was over. I was shocked. It happened that fast. I approached the woman after lunch in the hall as she was returning to her clinical duties. I told her what I saw and offered myself as a witness. She thanked and said no she was not going to pursue it. I told her my offer was open if she changed her mind. We parted and never said anything about again.
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The truly sad part of this is , some folks need a thousand page legal document and formal classroom training to know how we should treat each other . The REALLY sad part , the lesson is apparently too difficult for a few to
learn :(
Dusty
The problem is there are those few who know how they should treat others...and despite this they choose to bully, degrade and humiliate others for their own enjoyment. They are disgusting.
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Probably time to put this thread to bed.
Dean
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Isn't Duke University where they had a minor scandal surrounding the lacrosse team?
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The problem is there are those few who know how they should treat others...and despite this they choose to bully, degrade and humiliate others for their own enjoyment. They are disgusting.
About sums it up for me.
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Isn't Duke University where they had a minor scandal surrounding the lacrosse team?
Yes- and it wasn't a minor scandal. It was national news for weeks. It turned out to be a false accusation. However, they already had been tried in the court of public opinion. Not surprisingly, the networks failed to give equal time to reporting that the charges were trumped up by some skeevy stripper.
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Yes- and it wasn't a minor scandal. It was national news for weeks. It turned out to be a false accusation. However, they already had been tried in the court of public opinion. Not surprisingly, the networks failed to give equal time to reporting that the charges were trumped up by some skeevy stripper.
Just a bit of history.
No doubt this thread has drifted a whole lot. Duke administrators made numerous huge mistakes handling the Lacrosse case; it cost them millions of $ for firing the coach as well as suspending 4 of the Lacrosse team athletes. The DA made huge mistakes and was disbarred as a result of his handling of the case. It was obvious to me about the 2nd week after the event that a rape most likely had not occurred. All it took was reading news reports and listening to what Crystal Mangum was saying and doing. She was a nut job. The DA was looking to cash in on the issue and get re-elected on it. The media circus was as bad as it could get.
The Lacrosse team made a mistake having a stripper party. They were party idiots but they were not rapists. They also had too many parties caused the neighbors grief and numerous complaints over years. What the Lacrosse guys didn't know was that one stripper, Crystal Mangum was a very sick and troubled person.
She is now serving a 14 years sentence for stabbing her boyfriend to death. She has a long rap sheet including child endangerment. She has had her children taken from her by the state. It was a crazy crazy time and people took hardened stance based on prejudices. I disagreed with my friends who lived in Durham. They were too quick to judge the Lacrosse team as guilty.
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this guy is a dick .
PC , who gives a flying #$%&, , have yet to figure out what that even means .
Dusty
Of course he is! Just saying that women are faced with such crap all the time and many know how to deal with it!
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Of course he is! Just saying that women are faced with such crap all the time and many know how to deal with it!
Sorry , my comment wasn't directed at anyone . And yes , most women learn to deal with guys like this after a few bitter experiences .
Dusty
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Seems to me the teller who got the hug should be the one to take action, and only her. Maybe it was her pleasure, don't know? Perhaps she had been hit'n on him, don't know? If she didn't like the hug or found the comments offensive she should have just kicked him in the groin.
Third parties have no place in this, we don't know what axe they may have to grind with the manager.
Me thinks we've become way too politically correct and overly sensitive in the 21st century. Just say'n....
Paul
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Oh yeah , that is every 55 year old male's fantasy , having a 24 year old gay female hit on him :D
Dusty
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The Onion had an article on this red button topic and this pic to go with it.
On-The-Job Sexual Harassment: Three Women Tell Their Sizzling Hot Tales
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc57/bpreynolds/image.jpg1_zps1gjks2z5.jpg) (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/bpreynolds/media/image.jpg1_zps1gjks2z5.jpg.html)
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Here we have someone who has a role to take up such things. But it will be the choice of the 24 year old what she wants with it. Your wife should talk to her about it.
If she make work out of it, it could/will make here work with the manager impossible. And might loose her job. If he is a jerk like you tell, it looks like it will. The sentence "I'm going to make a woman out of you", is something hetero man tell to gay woman as they think they can be "rescued" from being gay if they have sex with man. So I suppose he knows she is a lesbian.
My wife worked 25 years at the city office until she got a boss that was very rude, end of story after lawyers: my wife lost her job. The city throw him out two years later...