Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: leafman60 on February 18, 2015, 08:02:14 AM
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I thought I'd provide everyone with a good laugh this morning but ... do you think there is any possible chance that Moto Guzzi will ever field a modern machine that could compete in the National or World Superbike Series racing?
I'm serious. Not delusional this early in the morning.
This is the series that mandates motorcycles to be based on standard homologated production machines and be four-stroke, 850-1200CC for twins, 750-1000CC for four-cylinders. Aside from the popularity of such races, they provide a valuable marketing tool for the manufacturers.
Lest anyone think that a twin couldn't compete, Ducati twins hold the world record of 14 wins in this series with Honda a distant second at 6 wins.
I know, I know, we aren't going to see a California 1400 on the Superbike podium or a Stelvio either for that matter. I also know Aprilia wants these spots for their own offerings and Piaggio hasn't positioned the Guzzi brand in a way to appeal to this sort of marketing. It's just a whimsical thought. Could another Italian V Twin with or without shaft drive be competitive? Could it make inroads to a younger demographic coming up?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superbike_racing
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Two things come to mind, weight and electronics. BMW tried/trying.
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Certainly. They could have easily put the Moto Guzzi name on the current WSBK Aprilia. A good argument could be made that should Aprilia get serious in MotoGP, they should do exactly that. But, they won't (Guzzi is now positioned by Piaggio to never be their leading edge performance bike).
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It's simply a matter of doing some telephone call, and invest a lot of money.
If the Piaggio management calls the engineers of the Centro Sviluppo Motori Piaggio giving them the task to make a 1200cc twin for competitions, they will do it, and, if the same management tell the Aprilia guys to develop a bike capable to win the WSBK with that engine, they will do. They already have the know-how to do those things.
But those are costly items. As I recall, the development of the RSV4 cost 25.000.000 € prior than the first race.
DogW
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It's all about money, and personally I'd rather see the money spent on developing the lineup of street motorcycles.
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Certainly. They could have easily put the Moto Guzzi name on the current WSBK Aprilia. A good argument could be made that should Aprilia get serious in MotoGP, they should do exactly that. But, they won't (Guzzi is now positioned by Piaggio to never be their leading edge performance bike).
I agree with this. Aprilia is currently the "racing" brand, and Moto Guzzi is the "heritage" brand, but part of Guzzi's "heritage" IS racing, so why is that off the table? In that regard, an Aprilia / Moto Guzzi -- MotoGP / SBK split makes a lot of sense. However, notice that with Aprilia shifting its emphasis to MotoGP this year, Aprilia is not fielding a factory team in WSBK. I don't think Piaggio has the money to field factory teams in two world racing series, simultaneously.
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With the recent mention of the "limited V7 Racer" and the V7II 6-speed gearbox, the homologation looks promising. ;-T
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You all seem to leave out that Guzzis are mostly air cooled and all the SBK bikes are water cooled. Besides, Aprilia is back in Moto GP and WSBK so that's where all the Piaggio race $ is going. In fact I'm surprised Piaggio can afford to be in both race formats. :o
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The only way it would work is to rebadge the Aprilia V4 a Guzzi. Might be a smart plan actually, since the Superbike has already been developed and Aprilia is moving to Moto GP. Sales wise, there would a Guzzi version- so another market for an off the shelf package. Something for the mature sportbike guy.
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You all seem to leave out that Guzzis are mostly air cooled and all the SBK bikes are water cooled. Besides, Aprilia is back in Moto GP and WSBK so that's where all the Piaggio race $ is going. In fact I'm surprised Piaggio can afford to be in both race formats. :o
They can't. There is no Team Aprilia in WSBK 2015; Aprilia withdrew at the end of 2014 to concentrate on MotoGP in 2015. Team Red Devils Roma will compete in WSBK in 2015 with the RSV4, but whatever factory support they get will be informal and not on the same level as in years past.
Obviously, any Moto Guzzi racer on the world stage would be a water-cooled, state-of-the art racing machine. Since SBK is a production-based series, that would require a production model to base the racer off of. So? If Piaggio is not currently working on new Moto Guzzi models, at least some of which are water-cooled, then Guzzi has bigger problems than simply being out of racing.
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They can't. There is no Team Aprilia in WSBK 2015; Aprilia withdrew at the end of 2014 to concentrate on MotoGP in 2015. Team Red Devils Roma will compete in WSBK in 2015 with the RSV4, but whatever factory support they get will be informal and not on the same level as in years past.
Obviously, any Moto Guzzi racer on the world stage would be a water-cooled, state-of-the art racing machine. Since SBK is a production-based series, that would require a production model to base the racer off of. So? If Piaggio is not currently working on new Moto Guzzi models, at least some of which are water-cooled, then Guzzi has bigger problems than simply being out of racing.
Guzzi built a w/c prototype motor years ago and it went nowhere. MG, like HD, is clinging to air cooled as long as it can. How long that will be who knows? Hard to say if the Guzzi faithful would accept a w/c motor in their future or anything but a v twin. Guzzi heritage is to be different designed from all it's competitors. ;D
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I remember the MG against the HD, Lucifer's Hammer at Pocano in 85 ; good race
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I remember the MG against the HD, Lucifer's Hammer at Pocano in 85 ; good race
That's when they were both air cooled motors and comparable in speed. Air cooled against w/c now is no contest unless it's amateur racing and it comes down to the racer, not the bike.
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Back in the mid 70's the Lemans 1 was a contender.
But look how others have evolved and look how Guzzi has evolved. There ain't no way in hell Guzzi will ever be able to make a bike compete with a Duc. sorry.
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Back in the mid 70's the Lemans 1 was a contender.
But look how others have evolved and look how Guzzi has evolved. There ain't no way in hell Guzzi will ever be able to make a bike compete with a Duc. sorry.
sad but true, at least for the next few years unless Guzzi steps up/is allowed to step up by Piaggio
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sad but true, at least for the next few years unless Guzzi steps up/is allowed to step up by Piaggio
If you want to be proud of your brand MC for it's speed, you have to buy a Ducati, BMW, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Suzuki, or Aprilia. I have 2 of them besides a couple Guzzis. ;D
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Guzzi built a w/c prototype motor years ago and it went nowhere. MG, like HD, is clinging to air cooled as long as it can. How long that will be who knows? Hard to say if the Guzzi faithful would accept a w/c motor in their future or anything but a v twin. Guzzi heritage is to be different designed from all it's competitors. ;D
Would the Guzzisti accept a longitudinal v-twin, transverse v-twin, inline three-cylinder, or V-4, with water cooling? At least those are different enough from an I-4 to claim oddball or underdog status in SBK.
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Even BMW has withdrawn factory support from SBK . Does Ducati field a factory team , they had withdrawn at one time . The big 4 aren't as involved as they once were . An Aprillia badged as a Guzzi , hmm , not really a Guzzi and would bear no relationship to the MGs sold to the public .
Dusty
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Even BMW has withdrawn factory support from SBK . Does Ducati field a factory team , they had withdrawn at one time . The big 4 aren't as involved as they once were . An Aprillia badged as a Guzzi , hmm , not really a Guzzi and would bear no relationship to the MGs sold to the public .
Dusty
Yes Ducati has a factory WSBK team again. Chaz Davies is their main rider. He raced some in AMA when years were bleak for any ride. Rode an Aprilia then but it wasn't really competitive.
For these 2 races @ Philip Island Troy Bayliss is filling in for an injured rider to match Davies in fighting for the wins on the other Ducati. 8)
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Even BMW has withdrawn factory support from SBK . Does Ducati field a factory team , they had withdrawn at one time . The big 4 aren't as involved as they once were . An Aprillia badged as a Guzzi , hmm , not really a Guzzi and would bear no relationship to the MGs sold to the public .
Dusty
There would have to be a street Guzzi version to be WSBK legal.
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There would have to be a street Guzzi version to be WSBK legal.
Good point John , which reinforces what most believe , it ain't gonna happen . Funny , I did a search , this topic , or one similar , comes up every so often , don't think Piaggio is listening ::) :D
Dusty
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Actually I thought the Aprilia RSV that Chaz Davies road a couple years back in competitiveAmerican Super Bike was pretty competivie. They finished in the top 5 several times as I recall, with a couple podiums.
This year Aprilia is competing with a full factory team in ASB. I'm looking forward to see what a factory team can do, as the last attempt was not a factory team.
I would like to see a RSV4 with a Guzzi badge in WSB or Moto GP, I think it would be great for the brand.
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Good point John , which reinforces what most believe , it ain't gonna happen . Funny , I did a search , this topic , or one similar , comes up every so often , don't think Piaggio is listening ::) :D
Dusty
That's right. It has to be a street legal bike produced and sold X units a year to qualify for accreditation in WSBK. Bimota just got dropped because it hasn't sold enough units to qualify. So a Moto Guzzi superbike competitor is just a pipe dream. :beat_horse
..........pass that joint over here..........my friend..........
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MG does have their 100th year anniversary coming up. They might be getting ready to drop something huge when that time comes instead of some wet parts bin special like the BMW nineT.
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How about a "Less Than Superbike Series" limited to air cooled, push rod, V twins...MG v HD. Any one else we should invite?
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How about a "Less Than Superbike Series" limited to air cooled, push rod, V twins...MG v HD. Any one else we should invite?
It's called the BEARS series .
Dusty
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How about a "Less Than Superbike Series" limited to air cooled, push rod, V twins...MG v HD. Any one else we should invite?
It's called the BEARS series .
Dusty
And AHRMA BOTT, where there is a Guzzi presence...
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Even BMW has withdrawn factory support from SBK . Does Ducati field a factory team , they had withdrawn at one time . The big 4 aren't as involved as they once were .
Not exactly.
The BMW Motorrad Italia GoldBet SBK Team is directly sponsored and managed by BMW of Italy, and is supported by the parent corporation, BMW in Germany.
Aruba.it Racing - Ducati Superbike Team is a factory team. MV Agusta Motor S.p.A. fields a factory team. EBR / Hero is a factory team. When Bimota was in SBK last year, it was with a factory team, and if they can meet homologation rules, they will likely return with a factory team. Even the Aprilia Racing Team – Red Devils is managed by an individual who is part of Aprilia's management, and the team is supported by Aprilia, albeit not at the same level as in years past.
Monster Energy / Kawasaki is sponsored and managed directly by Kawasaki Motors Europe NV, and receives support from the parent company KHI in Japan; I am not sure of the contractual arrangements between Honda Motor Japan and the Pata Honda Team, or between Suzuki Motor Japan and the Voltcom Crescent Suzuki Team, but I think those can also be considered factory teams. The only one of the Big Four Japanese manufacturers without a factory WSBK effort in recent years is Yamaha, which seems weird to me, given their heavy (and successful) involvement in AMA Superbike racing. (Yamaha Motor Europe N.V. was the official factory WSBK sponsor, withdrawing at the end of the 2011 season.) But check this out -- Yamaha is back (somewhat)for 2015, and is planning a full factory effort in 2016: http://paologozzi.gazzetta.it/en/2014/11/28/english-yamaha-to-do-one-off-appearances-in-sbk-2015-search-for-top-rider-for-2016/
Like Mark Twain, reports of the death of WSBK are greatly exaggerated.
An Aprillia badged as a Guzzi , hmm , not really a Guzzi and would bear no relationship to the MGs sold to the public .
Guzzi in SBK would require Piaggio to either market a re-badged RSV-4 as a Moto Guzzi, or invest in developing a new Guzzi superbike. I am not a fan of "badge engineering." It rarely works from a marketing perspective, and it can do real and lasting damage to a brand. (Ask Plymouth fans.) Piaggio is a worldwide corporation, with net revenues of well over $1B EU annually; if they wanted to build another superbike, they could. I don't think they want to, though.
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Perhaps Guzzi/Piaggio needs a car mfg involved to field a top level contender. I vote for Fiat. Ducati dropped out and came back after Audi "rescued" them. MV is owned by..? BMW, Honda...
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The idea of a Mfg. being in WSBK is to sell more copies of that race bike to the public as a street bike. Piaggio has Aprilia for that purpose, not Moto Guzzi. End of story.
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A support class spec series, like BMW did a while back with the R100s. Teams apply to Piaggio to lease a pair of V7s then are free to mod them but retain the stock chassis. Restrictions could be no forced induction, no nitrous, no chain final drive conversions. Suspension and everything else is open for change, but bike must retain stock appearing tank, seat, fenders.
No claiming rule but Piaggio owns the bikes and reserves the right to inspect / strip between events.
Top finishers in the series earn favorable lease arrangements for the next year and eventually, maybe a shot at a seat on Aprilia? That's a big jump. Losers get coupons to Olive Garden.
Tobit
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The idea of a Mfg. being in WSBK is to sell more copies of that race bike to the public as a street bike. Piaggio has Aprilia for that purpose, not Moto Guzzi. End of story.
I think you are taking too narrow a view.
Winning races can result in more and faster development of advanced technology throughout the vehicle manufacturer's model line, as well as yield favorable publicity for the entire brand.
There is also the "halo effect" that a race-winning model can lend to an entire brand. Not everybody can afford a race bike with lights, and few people with that kind of money will actually part with it for what is essentially an adult toy. However, many customers get a warm and fuzzy feeling shopping for a vehicle in the same showroom where a race-replica is also for sale to the public. Race victories signal that the manufacturer makes a tech-rich, durable, and "cool" product. Beyond selling race-replicas, a race-winning Moto Guzzi is likely to result in more sales of whatever else Guzzi might be making at the time.
When I was a kid, my dad was a Mopar fan. We would root for Richard Petty in NASCAR races, and he would buy his cars from the local Dodge dealer. Every few years, we would visit the dealer and ogle the latest and hottest Challengers and Chargers, but no matter how much I begged, we always came home with a 4-door Coronet. :'(
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Perhaps Guzzi/Piaggio needs a car mfg involved to field a top level contender. I vote for Fiat.
Owned a Fiat "Fix It Again Toni" once. No way would I want that name associated with Moto Guzzi.
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No Yamahas this year but American Larry Pegram is running the EBR.
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Yes they could however they would need to keep the sticker that is the symbol for the company and start with a complete new motorcycle. They would also need to punch out a representative road bike available to the general public that will hopefully buy it and here in lie the rub the company is not known for that kind of motorcycle. It will need water cooling fuel injection and possibly direct injection cassette gearbox and chain drive (purely for the re gearing options). There will be much suspender snapping and corn pipe breaking.
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Owned a Fiat "Fix It Again Toni" once. No way would I want that name associated with Moto Guzzi.
Perhaps. Although there was a manufacturer known as the "Ferrari of motorcycles" even though they had no actual connection to Ferrari, or their parent with deep pockets, Fiat. EBR also has a partner now, presumably for their money.
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I think you are taking too narrow a view.
Winning races can result in more and faster development of advanced technology throughout the vehicle manufacturer's model line, as well as yield favorable publicity for the entire brand.
There is also the "halo effect" that a race-winning model can lend to an entire brand. Not everybody can afford a race bike with lights, and few people with that kind of money will actually part with it for what is essentially an adult toy. However, many customers get a warm and fuzzy feeling shopping for a vehicle in the same showroom where a race-replica is also for sale to the public. Race victories signal that the manufacturer makes a tech-rich, durable, and "cool" product. Beyond selling race-replicas, a race-winning Moto Guzzi is likely to result in more sales of whatever else Guzzi might be making at the time.
When I was a kid, my dad was a Mopar fan. We would root for Richard Petty in NASCAR races, and he would buy his cars from the local Dodge dealer. Every few years, we would visit the dealer and ogle the latest and hottest Challengers and Chargers, but no matter how much I begged, we always came home with a 4-door Coronet. :'(
Ditto ditto
Wouldn't that be a huge shakeup for Guzzi!
The trickle-down effects from racing would soak through the entire production range and improve the breed to better compete.
If they could retain their signature transverse V somehow, all the better. If they had to adopt a new configuration as did BMW, the benefits of a racing program would still spill over to the traditional line-up of transverse V's.
Wouldn't that help Piaggio instead of hurt them? To the extent that it helped the market position of Guzzi, the bottom line for Piaggio would only get better. Instead of a zero-sum game and a deterrent to sales of Aprilia, wouldn't it provide better diversification for Piaggio?
All of this is big talk. If you visit the Guzzi factory, you will clearly see that the Guzzi operation appears doomed to languish in a status-quo position of barely eeking through an existence to keep the current Mandello facilities open. The whole thing is so small, so low-tech, so old-time. It's like a small cottage industry of sorts. Having seen it all, I am still in a state of amazement that they can still do things that way.
Maybe what little attention paid by Piaggio to Guzzi is to spin it down a marketing path as a heritage brand, a la Harley Davidson. That's fine but that focus will not hold up well when competing against the likes of BMW etc and their steady progression along the path of better performance and innovation (despite reliability problems).
Then, I'm reminded of that famous quip- "Moto Guzzi, going out of business since 1921."
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Europe%202014/IMG_2461.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Europe%202014/IMG_2461.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Europe%202014/IMG_2450.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Europe%202014/IMG_2450.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Europe%202014/IMG_2465.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Europe%202014/IMG_2465.jpg.html)
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there's no way a longitudinal crank V motor would ever competitive in WSBK.
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there's no way a longitudinal crank V motor would ever competitive in WSBK.
Why not?
What would be different about an Aprilia RSV or a Ducati Testastretta if the engine was turned 90-degrees in the frame?
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there's no way a longitudinal crank V motor would ever competitive in WSBK.
Yep. One question . How is fielding a race bike that is going to be ruinously expensive and doomed to be a back marker going to burnish the Moto Guzzi reputation . Even Nascar has figured out to make the drivers the stars , the manufacturers nameplate is secondary . Moto Guzzi would be better served by somehow associating the brand with a lifestyle like the MoCo has so successfully done .
Dusty
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Why not?
What would be different about an Aprilia RSV or a Ducati Testastretta if the engine was turned 90-degrees in the frame?
First off , the drive would need to be turned 90 degrees to accommodate the chain drive , then there is the fact that this won't really be a Guzzi .
Dusty
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The main problem with the longitudinal engine is length.
Guzzi made, and raced, a longitudinal 4 in 500 GP racing. Didn't do well, but it was quite fast. Shaft drive, too. I always wondered if it shared a U joint with the V7/Ambo etc.
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Why not?
What would be different about an Aprilia RSV or a Ducati Testastretta if the engine was turned 90-degrees in the frame?
1. engine bulky, wide and in the air flow (affects aerodynamics, CG & balance, packaging nightmare)
2. power loss to run a chain drive or even more power loss to run a shaft
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The main problem with the longitudinal engine is length.
Guzzi made, and raced, a longitudinal 4 in 500 GP racing. Didn't do well, but it was quite fast. Shaft drive, too. I always wondered if it shared a U joint with the V7/Ambo etc.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RqOkIMIb8Mg/UntnUgbx8OI/AAAAAAAAB7c/my4GZwsDocM/s1600/moto-guzzi-phil-aynsley-the-motart-journal-4.jpg)
pretty bike
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1. engine bulky, wide and in the air flow (affects aerodynamics, CG & balance, packaging nightmare)
2. power loss to run a chain drive or even more power loss to run a shaft
Yes , the chassis dynamics would be a nightmare .
Dusty