Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: right_slide on March 08, 2015, 08:22:43 PM
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My dad just bought a brand new Norge from a dealer in NC and is making his way back to Pittsburgh, PA. The thing had an issue with it starting, 30 miles in. It was apparently some sensor in the wrong place, then the cooling fan hit the wire or something.
So the dealer fixed that. I just got a call, it cut out again and started backfiring on him in WV. We already have a crew going to get him, but I figured I'd throw it out there to see if anyone had a guess as to what this issue might be?
Thanks guys!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Ask him to get the instrument panel to display battery voltage if he has done that before. My new Norge had the connector fall out of the alternator. Didn't back fire, but started running on one cyl., then quit. Don't know if this is any help at all, but he needs to check battery voltage with it running. Might be the same guy working the assy. line on his bike.
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The guys just dropped him off at home. I don't think he could get it running at all, but I'll pass it along. Thanks!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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OK, let's start doing some diagnosis.
First, put the battery on a charger overnight. Will the bike then start and run? If it does what does the volt meter show when the throttle is opened? Does the voltage rise to 13.8-14.3V at 3,000rpm?
Check the main fuses.
Pete
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Bump.
Let us know the Paul Harvey when you can.
Bill
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Saving the money by driving to NC to get a deal probably does not seem like a wise choice right now. Of course I don't know the details but proper PDI and setup is very important to these bikes. Our technician has a lot of respect for Guzzi but almost none for there ability to deliver a fault free bike out of the crate. Battery setup is also prime, he adds the acid and waits 24 hours before charging for another 24 hours. Every bike gets full diagnostic, its easy with PADS.
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Saving the money by driving to NC to get a deal probably does not seem like a wise choice right now....
Waltr,
Your comment struck me as "sour grapes." IMHO, it does not reflect well on you. It would appear you know the new Guzzi owner. Your comment sounded to me like you were saying, "See? I told you so!"
Here we have a new Guzzi owner who has found his "new bike experience" tarnished by the "Achilles heel" of Moto Guzzi in the U.S. - too few dealers and some who don't service new bikes well (such appears to be implied in your post - I know nothing about the NC dealership). I wonder if you would have been better served by saying something like, "If you're in the neighborhood bring the bike in and we'll help sort it for you." That might have given you the opportunity to develop a new loyal customer. Instead, your comment makes you look like a dealer who believes "customers get what they deserve." That makes me a bit uncomfortable.
Of course, it's your dealership and your shop - present the image you want others to see. In the meantime I hope some of our Norge owners and others will help Right_Slide's dad get his new Guzzi sorted out.
Just my 2¢.
Bill
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Waltr,
Your comment struck me as "sour grapes." IMHO, it does not reflect well on you. It would appear you know the new Guzzi owner. Your comment sounded to me like you were saying, "See? I told you so!"
Here we have a new Guzzi owner who has found his "new bike experience" tarnished by the "Achilles heel" of Moto Guzzi in the U.S. - too few dealers and some who don't service new bikes well. I wonder if you would have been better served by saying something like, "If you're in the neighborhood bring the bike in and we'll help sort it for you." That might have given you the opportunity to develop a new loyal customer. Instead, your comment makes you look like a dealer who believes "customers get what they deserve." That makes me a bit uncomfortable.
Of course, it's your dealership and your shop - present the image you want others to see. In the meantime I hope some of our Norge owners and others will help Right_Slide's dad get his new Guzzi sorted out.
Just my 2¢.
Bill
And, Bill, this Bill disagrees with you. :D
I did not see that as sour grapes at all, but good advice ... not necessarily for "pop" ... as, yes, too late for him as to sale, but not service.
But, Waltr passed on what I, at least, view as sound counsel for new and old hands alike on the advantages of buying local.
That did not make me "uncomfortable" at all. OTOH, I am an insensitive lout. ;D
Sure hope there is a happy ending, tho, to this new Norge story.
Bill
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The Norge has a cooling fan? Shows how much I know.
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Waltr,
Your comment struck me as "sour grapes."
Nah. He's just speaking from experience.
Here's 56pan's similar Norge from North Carolina thread. Seems the plug came loose at the back of the alternator:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=73552.0
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The implication that some are making here is that Matthews Fun Machines does not know how to prep their bikes. If that isn't an "unjustified dealer attack," I don't know what is.
That a competing dealer should engage in this kind of conduct is shameful... that a moderator should chime in with agreement... I am speechless.
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That a competing dealer should engage in this kind of conduct is shameful... that a moderator should chime in with agreement... I am speechless.
Feel free to report this thread and my post to Luap.
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^^^ Or you could apologize and delete your post and Waltr's. Really, I think you are being way too cavalier about your responsibilities in this regard.
As yet we don't know what is wrong with the OP's dad's bike, so blaming it on poor dealer set-up is pure speculation, if not character assassination.
As for the "experience" that you cite, putting aside that one instance does not make a trend, the other incident involved a plug that was not properly tightened at the factory, which is hardly a reflection of dealer PDI.
This wasn't some concerned Guzzisiti advising a fellow enthusiast to "buy local." This was a dealer TAUNTING someone for not buying FROM HIM.
Really, how dare Waltr taunt the OP! And why would you tolerate this, let alone egg him on? If my $15K new bike crapped out on me, and a competing dealer commented with this kind of snark, I'd have two words for him, and they wouldn't be "Happy Birthday!"
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Of course I don't know the details....
Of course you don't. So why open your mouth?
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Wow! An over-dramatic post from youcanrunnaked! Imagine that!
I stand by my previous post. Report the thread to Luap if you have a problem. If not, then move along.
We don't need your melodramatic bomb-dropping added to this thread.
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Nah. He's just speaking from experience.
Here's 56pan's similar Norge from North Carolina thread. Seems the plug came loose at the back of the alternator:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=73552.0
Mathews Fun Machines has been a good dealer. (Except for being too chintzy to let me have a full tank of gas when I picked up the bike. :)) I had made a comment in my original thread about dealer prep, but probably shouldn't have. I doubt that pulling off the tank and checking alternator connectors is part of the checklist for dealer prep. Things happen. In my opinion, they're good folks. Service manager seems to be very knowledgeable and helpful.
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Easy fellas , take a deep breath . Camp out season is almost here :D
Dusty
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FWIW, I have had good experiences with Matthews Fun Machines.
They fixed a minor problem with my bike in the middle of a 3K mile road trip, no waiting and no charge.
They let me take their demo Cali 1400 out for about an hour. No comment except, "How did you like it?"
IMHO, they deserve better.
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FWIW, I have had good experiences with Matthews Fun Machines.
They fixed a minor problem with my bike in the middle of a 3K mile road trip, no waiting and no charge.
They let me take their demo Cali 1400 out for about an hour. No comment except, "How did you like it?"
IMHO, they deserve better.
I did not necessarily read Waltr's post as a slam at another dealer -- tho I now agree it can be so read re prep -- as much as intended as how I meant my earlier chiming in on the advantages of buying local.
Whatever "savings" might come from a LD fly & ride or the like seem outweighed in any case (and certainly this one) by having the responsibility for fixing problems lying with the selling sealer who is "down the street" ... in Guzzi terms anyway. ;)
I wish the OP's dad well in this.
Bill
[Edited to fix auto-text. :-\]
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I've been asked to look at this thread. Really, I don't see any attacks. Maybe I'm blind. All I see are suggestions, and yes, suggestions as to dealerships as well. I have dealers that I prefer and I tell people that all the time. I kinda look at it if this conversation were to take place in person, would it be inflammatory. I don't think so. It appears to me that the suggestion was someone would not be so far from home stranded had they chose an alternate method of purchase. Again, maybe I'm blind. We're all adults here too, so we can all see things differently.
Like Dusty said...relax. It's just discussion and recommendations. Rally season is almost here. Grab a brew and chillax ;-T
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OK how about the story right from "pops". This is my bike. Do you ever have a friend that you say "We'll have to get together some time." and it never happens? I have such a friend in Angiers NC. 25 years ago I rode a V50III from Pgh to his place then down to Bike Week. I could have bought this bike as little as 40 miles from my house but elected to buy it from Matthews so I could visit my friend and possibly convince him to recreate the trip we had long ago. I did not do it for the money as it probably cost more with the air flight and all. Matthews could not have been nicer and I would not hesitate to buy another from them! Things happen. I got a brand new spark plug from the package that was faulty one time.
I believe there were two problems: one was the temp sensor wire was cut because it was FACTORY routed too close to the cooling fan. The second may have something to do with wiring from the alternator but time will tell.
Symptoms:
After stopping to get directions the bike would not start. Key on - full instrumentation - Depressing starter caused a mild "click" down deep under battery - Instruments go out then return.
I pulled all fuses - none were blown. After about 10 minutes the bike started ( at this point it had about 280 mi on it ).
Later crossing the Blue Ridge on 250 into WV it had no power like it was on one cylinder. I could not get over 4k rpm downhill. I pulled in the clutch and turned off the ignition to drift. Turned on the ignition to reset the computer which worked for about 15 seconds then it slowly died. Dead drift to a house where I called for evac.
Next day no start - voltage at battery 11.6v threw a charger on it for an hour and it started right up. Voltage at terminal idle 14.2v and at about 3k 14.4v. Called Matthews and the suspect a loose wire on the back of the alternator. I am taking it to Wooster on Thursday for 600mi check and electrical diagnosis.
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OK how about the story right from "pops". This is my bike.
****
:D
Great.
Thanks for the update.
Keep us posted on progress and "cure." My brother is picking his (second) new Norge next week and we are both interested in potential known gremlins.
Bill
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...crossing the Blue Ridge on 250 into WV it had no power like it was on one cylinder. I could not get over 4k rpm downhill. I pulled in the clutch and turned off the ignition to drift. Turned on the ignition to reset the computer which worked for about 15 seconds then it slowly died. Dead drift to a house where I called for evac.
Next day no start - voltage at battery 11.6v threw a charger on it for an hour and it started right up. Voltage at terminal idle 14.2v and at about 3k 14.4v. Called Matthews and the suspect a loose wire on the back of the alternator. I am taking it to Wooster on Thursday for 600mi check and electrical diagnosis.
Sounds like the loose alternator wire, from your description. Easy fix and you'll soon be back on the road.
Thanks for signing up and telling the story. Please let us know how it all works out.
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Sad to see this kind of shoddiness still plagues the bikes. Seems the Norges are troubled by a lack of factory quality control. Here's hoping it all works out well.
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I had the alternator go 'Phut' on the first ride on the Cali 14 I sold a couple of weeks ago. Was charging when I delivered it. Died on his first long ride stranding him. Not good. So it may not be poor assembly, just a crappy component.
Pete
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I'm not worried. They are a great machine and things can go wrong with the best machines. My V50III and SP1000 always put a smile on my face.
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Quote from Trialsman:
I'm not worried. They are a great machine and things can go wrong with the best machines. My V50III and SP1000 always put a smile on my face.
As does my T-3 and my Norge. Speaking of the Norge and some postings. Mine is doing very well so far. How much is assembly luck of the draw and how much is dealer prep is kind of like the chicken before the egg thing.
GliderJohn
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OK - Here is the report back what happened.
At the factory the oil temp sensor was put in the wrong hole which made the wire too long. The wire then got caught in the cooling fan when it came on, shorting out the 15amp "B" fuse. What was not expected was that the fan, itself, was fried although it would appear good because of its ability to spin freely by hand. When the cooling fan would come on ( I believe about 8amp on a 15amp circuit) it took a minute or so to heat up and slowly seize which ramped up to about 25amp on the same 15amp circuit. Fuse blown. That fuse happens to have the ignition starter as well and therefore the bike would not start after it was shut off.
It was difficult to replicate the problem but Aaron at All Season found it and the new fan is on the way. I am glad it was this as it points to one event which caused both a mechanical and an electrical problem. Now that the problem is solved the bike should be 100% reliable and I am confident it will be. To Piaggio's credit, I was contacted several times by corporate to address and expedite the warranty claim. All the way around I feel they did a super job of dealing with the issue. :bow
I remembered why I liked the Guzzi when I started riding the Norge so I traded in my BMW 1200GS for a new 2013 Stelvio. I will be ready for the 600mi check by the time the Norge fan gets here.
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;-T
Thanks for the update.
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I must be seriously out of the loop. My 07 Norge had no cooling fan as far as I know, so assumed the new ones didn't either. Then, I thought, maybe he's talking about the alternator cooling fan.. that's different on the new ones. Apparently not. Tell me about the cooling fan... I'm confused.
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Waltr,
Your comment struck me as "sour grapes." IMHO, it does not reflect well on you. It would appear you know the new Guzzi owner. Your comment sounded to me like you were saying, "See? I told you so!"
Here we have a new Guzzi owner who has found his "new bike experience" tarnished by the "Achilles heel" of Moto Guzzi in the U.S. - too few dealers and some who don't service new bikes well (such appears to be implied in your post - I know nothing about the NC dealership). I wonder if you would have been better served by saying something like, "If you're in the neighborhood bring the bike in and we'll help sort it for you." That might have given you the opportunity to develop a new loyal customer. Instead, your comment makes you look like a dealer who believes "customers get what they deserve." That makes me a bit uncomfortable.
Of course, it's your dealership and your shop - present the image you want others to see. In the meantime I hope some of our Norge owners and others will help Right_Slide's dad get his new Guzzi sorted out.
Just my 2¢.
Bill
Well it may be sour grapes and may be he was poking a finger in the buyers eye but it sure is not worthy of reporting it to a moderator.
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Well it may be sour grapes and may be he was poking a finger in the buyers eye but it sure is not worthy of reporting it to a moderator.
RR90,
I stand behind my comments. I really hate to see a new owner confronted with a breakdown. I hope MG dealers feel the same.
Report it to a moderator? You'll need to ask someone else to find out who did that - I certainly didn't. Perhaps Luap or Rocker will share that information with you.
Bill
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At the factory the oil temp sensor was put in the wrong hole
So Luigi had another one of his dreaded braincramps, did he? Probably the same guy that tried to screw in the lambda's in my new Norge, though the drill holes didn't match. A Monday morning after too much Chianti in the weekend? So tiresome....
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Chuck,
I'm not sure about the early Norge's but the 2011+ models have an oil cooler with fan. At least that is what I believe.
Eric
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Chuck,
I'm not sure about the early Norge's but the 2011+ models have an oil cooler with fan. At least that is what I believe.
Eric
Aaaaahh. Thanks!
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The Norge oil temp sensor /fan interference has been noted by PGA as a very small number of units affected. This seems to me to be untrue, all Norges need this checked on PDI and repaired. The alt wire can be checked on PDI pretty easily and we have found a couple less secure than ideal.
Also note the O2 sensors have been odd. As in we have 3 of them that are physically damaged prior to installation. Dented shells. Bike runs ok cold in open loop, but when warm it switched to closed loop operation and is trying to read a fubar'ed sensor. Easy enough to check them, next Norge we sell will get both removed on PDI for inspection. No we dont paid for that , unless they are found to be damaged.
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The Norge oil temp sensor /fan interference has been noted by PGA as a very small number of units affected. This seems to me to be untrue, all Norges need this checked on PDI and repaired. The alt wire can be checked on PDI pretty easily and we have found a couple less secure than ideal.
Also note the O2 sensors have been odd. As in we have 3 of them that are physically damaged prior to installation. Dented shells. Bike runs ok cold in open loop, but when warm it switched to closed loop operation and is trying to read a fubar'ed sensor. Easy enough to check them, next Norge we sell will get both removed on PDI for inspection. No we dont paid for that , unless they are found to be damaged.
Another reason why buying from a good dealer like MPH makes a big difference.
It's too bad these bikes come from the factory with so many issues, though. I understand that Guzzi is a boutique brand, so some things will slip by them, but their history (at lease their modern history) shows that even when problems come to light, too often they don't seem to care about making a running or even model-based change that will prospectively eliminate them. The list of recurring problems spanning several model years and even several models is a long one, and it appears to be growing longer.
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Another reason why buying from a good dealer like MPH makes a big difference.
It's too bad these bikes come from the factory with so many issues, though. I understand that Guzzi is a boutique brand, so some things will slip by them, but their history (at lease their modern history) shows that even when problems come to light, too often they don't seem to care about making a running or even model-based change that will prospectively eliminate them. The list of recurring problems spanning several model years and even several models is a long one, and it appears to be growing longer.
In fact its been pretty good QC in the last few years. Thats what makes these issues on one model stand out, its as if they were built in a different plant, by a different crew. The V7s have been very little trouble, the Griso doesnt give any troubles. The Norhe has a few issues, but they are simple once we learned their weak spots.
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Quality control on my 07 Norge was very good. On my 98 Centauro, I often said, "the only reason they assembled it was to make sure you got all the parts." ;D
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The only issue on my 2011 Norge was loose fasteners at first. Retightening and where needed some blue locktight took care of that issue, otherwise couldn't ask for a nicer running bike. Oh, the only other issue was early on two of my tires with low miles were nail magnets. Not MGs problem though but aggravating.
GliderJohn
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Is there any way to get feedback to the designers in the factory.
My pet peeve is the way they keep trying to stuff 50 Amps through the ignition switch.
I honestly don't think they realize how the starter solenoids work.
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I took one of our starter relay kits with me to the factory in 2011. I showed it to the engineers that were meeting with us, they had never heard of a problem with the start relay. I dont know if they are in touch with anyone outside of the design center, but its seems that they arent. We have no way to reach them, and the US service/tech rep gets our inputs, but Italy runs a "Not invented here" attitude.
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I took one of our starter relay kits with me to the factory in 2011. I showed it to the engineers that were meeting with us, they had never heard of a problem with the start relay. I dont know if they are in touch with anyone outside of the design center, but its seems that they arent. We have no way to reach them, and the US service/tech rep gets our inputs, but Italy runs a "Not invented here" attitude.
Thanks for that (troubling) insight.
But, surely this is/was not a "USA only" issue, but must have some chatter on European Guzzi forums, including http://www.animaguzzista.com right there in Mandelloland?
Bill
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Bill we have sent the kit all over the world. Its not a US only problem, the designers are looking forwards 5 years down the road, and dont get bothered with mistakes on stuff that might have been drawn 7 to 10 years ago.
Now somebody somewhere should be filtering these issues and letting the respective depts know about common problems.( Should )
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I took one of our starter relay kits with me to the factory in 2011. I showed it to the engineers that were meeting with us, they had never heard of a problem with the start relay. I dont know if they are in touch with anyone outside of the design center, but its seems that they arent. We have no way to reach them, and the US service/tech rep gets our inputs, but Italy runs a "Not invented here" attitude.
That is obvious from the internal fuel line blowing off issue. That hung around for what, about 7 years, before they tried a difference hose. And i suspect they just changed suppliers and weren't really fixing it.
In every organization that I have been involved with, the design team is working on 'the next big thing', and generally isn't bother with their own past mistakes. But there IS a group ('continuation engineering' or whatever they want to call it) that supports and tracks current issues. And a system to make sure that current issues, are avoided in future products. Whoever that person (it wouldn't take a team, one person could do most of it) is at MG, has failed.
Maybe after years and years of stupid press comments (with the crankshaft rotating like that it will flop around like a pig and weave all over the road) MG has just adapted to ignoring the outside world and their mostly ignorant comments.
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Bill we have sent the kit all over the world. Its not a US only problem, the designers are looking forwards 5 years down the road, and dont get bothered with mistakes on stuff that might have been drawn 7 to 10 years ago.
Now somebody somewhere should be filtering these issues and letting the respective depts know about common problems.( Should )
Yep, they are missing a department in Design. In most Aerospace companies, they have Design Engineering for new product development, and a dedicated Sustaining Engineering group to sort out the stuff that comes up in the field or they become aware of....
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In fact its been pretty good QC in the last few years. Thats what makes these issues on one model stand out, its as if they were built in a different plant, by a different crew. The V7s have been very little trouble, the Griso doesnt give any troubles. The Norhe has a few issues, but they are simple once we learned their weak spots.
Griso (No troubles?) -- Cam failures, dashboard failures, intermittent neutral light, poor fueling....
Stelvio (Conspicuously missing from your list.) -- Cam failures, pinch bolt breakage, ECU shorting because location not water-resistant, electrical gremlins, groaning clutches, wheel bearing failures, poor fueling....
Your remarks beg the question: In today's market, for new motorcycles in the $10,000 - $20,000 price range, is "pretty good" quality control good enough?
I took one of our starter relay kits with me to the factory in 2011. I showed it to the engineers that were meeting with us, they had never heard of a problem with the start relay. I dont know if they are in touch with anyone outside of the design center, but its seems that they arent. We have no way to reach them, and the US service/tech rep gets our inputs, but Italy runs a "Not invented here" attitude.
Bill we have sent the kit all over the world. Its not a US only problem, the designers are looking forwards 5 years down the road, and dont get bothered with mistakes on stuff that might have been drawn 7 to 10 years ago.
Now somebody somewhere should be filtering these issues and letting the respective depts know about common problems.( Should )
That does not suggest world-class QC. Man-made machines cannot be 100% problem-free, but a manufacturer who willfully ignores how their products perform in the real world is shooting itself in the foot.
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Sigh. As a guy who does QA / QC for a living, I must comment here.
The issues you have identified where shoddy workmanship results in problems, yes, those are issues that the Quality team is responsible for. Also those where a component that can be (has been) well manufactured that gets shopped to a substandard supplier is also a Quality issue.
But it sounds like many of these issues are design flaws, and those responsibilities rest squarely with Design Engineering and upper management. The Q guys are tasked with making sure the parts and assembly are to print, and cluing the design guys and management to shortcomings (remember the Challenger?) so they can address those issues.
Everywhere I've worked the design engineers want to be involved in the sexy new designs, and nobody wants to do the sustaining engineering that [father guzzi obrian] refers to. It's a management responsibility to see that it happens.
[mph cycles] is on it as well. I get blowback from engineers when I bring them problems with machines already in the field - if we're not currently selling them and it's not a safety issue, it's difficult to get prioritized.
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I have spent little time here as of late. Knowing the weather and temperatures we have had this spring I concluded the ONLY reason to do a ride of this length to buy a new bike would be save a few bucks. What is the term: Penny wise but pound foolish. Of course I do not know the details and for jumping to that conclusion I am sorry.
We just went to deliver a bike (V7) that had 2 intermittent failures to respond to the starter switch. We lucked out and it set a code that we recorded. It continued to start and operate pefectly after that. We ordered a RPM sensor under warranty and got M-G to pay for a very thorough test of everything down to the wiring harness and pins to the ECU. We believe in being proactive.
When I posted, I had no idea who the selling dealer was. I am in no way calling out anybody. We have a couple of dealers around here though that I would not let work on my lawn mower.
I fact we have had gotten a call recently from someone looking to buy a used Moto Guzzi. He lived in North Carolina. He stoped by our place while home visiting family last summer. I told him he may be better off cultivating a relationship with a local dealer. I called him back after finding a used Breva 750 kitted out very well at Mathews Fun Machine's. I told him that that bike was a steal and he should go look at it. Long story short is he waited too long and it was sold.
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Waltr,
Your comment struck me as "sour grapes." IMHO, it does not reflect well on you. It would appear you know the new Guzzi owner. Your comment sounded to me like you were saying, "See? I told you so!"
Here we have a new Guzzi owner who has found his "new bike experience" tarnished by the "Achilles heel" of Moto Guzzi in the U.S. - too few dealers and some who don't service new bikes well (such appears to be implied in your post - I know nothing about the NC dealership). I wonder if you would have been better served by saying something like, "If you're in the neighborhood bring the bike in and we'll help sort it for you." That might have given you the opportunity to develop a new loyal customer. Instead, your comment makes you look like a dealer who believes "customers get what they deserve." That makes me a bit uncomfortable.
Of course, it's your dealership and your shop - present the image you want others to see. In the meantime I hope some of our Norge owners and others will help Right_Slide's dad get his new Guzzi sorted out.
Just my 2¢.
Bill
Bill just to let you know we have never turned away any vehicle with a warrany claim. People have driven some distance to to have us do warranty work and have been satisfied with the outcome. If we had gotten the call we have been there.
As far as what makes you uncomfortable I cannot begin to understand. If this is some attempt on your part to cast aspersions about me or the business I work for I do take offense to that. As for me knowing the new Guzzi owner I do not (read my last post).
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I'd really love it if there were a "here's how you REALLY do a PDI" manual for each bike...such as, "Waterproof the speedo cable on the Griso" or "Seal the oil pressure sensor gaskets better" or "Loc-tite the bolts that need Loc-titing, such as the Norge's muffler cap bolts."
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Who knows what's going on in the factory. Redundancies sap moral and under staffed departments inevitably effect the final products quality.
The 8 valve cam issues must have had a effect on the business. To produce a motor with a design flaw and then set about a adhoc fix rather than a proper recall surely points to a business not on top of it's game.
Internet forums can be a bad place to form a overall opinion of a product because every little issue is given the full spotlight treatment but in this instance I do feel Moto Guzzi have let their customers down.