Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Karl Von on March 29, 2015, 06:09:41 AM
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In a long list of problems with the Stelvio NTX from hell (Bad Rear End, ECU, Starter, Camshafts, Fuel Tank, Fuel Pump, and Clutch) the charging system had died. My father bought this bike new and has about had it with this bike.
We have determined the charging issue is the alternator. We removed the alternator (which is no easy task) and found it is made in China by the Chenqdv Huachuan electric company ( Guzzi# 886255)
(http://pinwall2.pinwallcycle.com/ebay/bike5111/531.jpg)
According to the parts books, this alt is used on the Norge 8v, Cali 1400 and 2011-2015 Stelvio NTX. It is rated at 55 Amps
The Griso (07-15) uses a 55 Amp Bosh Unit Guzzi # GU05712431 (Bosch # 0124120012)
Both Alternators have the same mounting set up, belt pulley and electrical plug. Does anyone know any differences in these two alternators. We would like to give the Chinese Alt the flotation test (throw it in a lake and see if it floats) and swap it with a Bosch unit, since they are both rated at 55 amps.
I know that the NTX, CALI 1400 and Norge 8V have a lot more electrical load than the Griso (heated grips, driving lights, power jacks). My thought is that Piaggio just gets the Chinese junk a lot cheaper than the Bosch units and will eventually phase them into all the big block models.
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12V x 55A = 660 Watts, more than enough for everything.
if it fits, why hesitate?
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WOW!!!!So that is what a flotation test is. OK, I'll bite. If it floats what do you do? And if it sinks? :BEER:
Matt
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12V x 55A = 660 Watts, more than enough for everything.
if it fits, why hesitate?
Because the Bosch one was actually tested to put out 12V x 55A = 660 Watts
The Chinese one only has a label.
If you want to buy a cheap knock off that hasn't had the work put into it you will get what you pay for.
It's a sad day for Guzzi if they are going to stoop so low.
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We just want to make sure there is not a feed back circuit or some other difference inside the Alt that is specific to the NTX, Norge 8V and Cali 1400 models that is not on the Bosch Griso Alt. From what we have been told, the ECU receives a signal from the charging circuit before supplying voltage to certain electrical circuits.
About ten miles before the battery went dead, we noticed the headlights on the bike shut down. I guess when the voltage drops, the ECU diverts all power to the ignition system and puts it in limp mode. We did not know the Alt was not charging, as we never saw a warning light and the bike was running fine. All of a sudden it just died and would not restart. We checked and the battery was dead. With all the trouble with this bike, we should have just pushed it into the woods and reported it stolen.....
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Because the Bosch one was actually tested to put out 12V x 55A = 660 Watts
The Chinese one only has a label.
If you want to buy a cheap knock off that hasn't had the work put into it you will get what you pay for.
It's a sad day for Guzzi if they are going to stoop so low.
The Chinese alt is the stock factory supplied Alt from Guzzi on the NTX, Norge 8V and Cali 1400 but the Griso gets the Bosch, so there must be a reason for the difference. We just do not want to buy a Bosch unit for 300 dollars and find it does not work, or damages the ECU. We have contacted a few moto electric shops and they can work on the bosh units but do not want to touch the no name Chinese unit. As for getting what you pay for, I guess 16 grand does not by much these days.
Griso Alt
(http://pinwall2.pinwallcycle.com/ebay/bike5276/562.jpg)
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If buying it from Pinwall cycle on ebay you best be very sure it's what is described because they often have no idea.
sorry to hear about your Dad, do they have a lemon law in your state?
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Both my 98 and 99 ST2's did the same thing. Turned out to be the wiring between the alternator and the regulator. :BEER:
Matt
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If you want to buy a cheap knock off that hasn't had the work put into it you will get what you pay for.
It's a sad day for Guzzi if they are going to stoop so low.
[/quote]
I challenge you to find any mass produced motor vehicle that does not contain at lest some Chinese parts.
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If buying it from Pinwall cycle on ebay you best be very sure it's what is described because they often have no idea.
sorry to hear about your Dad, do they have a lemon law in your state?
He could have turned the bike in under the Tennessee lemon law when he first bought it. The bearings literally fell out of the rear drive at 5,000 miles and it took Guzzi almost 3 months to get the drive replaced. He loved the bike and just thought it was one of those things. Then the starter shorted out and fried the ECU which killed the fuel pump according to the dealer. They also had to replace the fuel tank for some reason. All of this was done under warranty. After the warranty expired the lobes on the cam went flat. Guzzi supplied the updated roller cams but he had to pay the labor. He had the same issue with the clutch where it squalls when it is released and is jerky. Guzzi supplied the updated clutch unit but it is up to him to get it installed. We ran into the Guzzi reps at bike week and they told him, he needs to trade it in on a new Stelvio NTX.. ::)
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Both my 98 and 99 ST2's did the same thing. Turned out to be the wiring between the alternator and the regulator. :BEER:
Matt
These alternators have a internal regulator. We have found these units are also used on some Euro GM cars. We have checked all the connectors and wiring and everything meters good. There has been some issues on the Griso models with crimp on connectors in the charging circuit. We were hoping that this was the case but so far it all points to the Alt unit.
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According to the parts books, this alt is used on the Norge 8v, Cali 1400 and 2011-2015 Stelvio NTX. It is rated at 55 Amps
The Griso (07-15) uses a 55 Amp Bosh Unit Guzzi # GU05712431 (Bosch # 0124120012)
Norge, Cali 1400, Stelvio NTX, have ABS. The Griso does not (does it?). Maybe the Bosch unit is a touch longer. Are there any ABS bits behind the alternator?
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Norge, Cali 1400, Stelvio NTX, have ABS. The Griso does not (does it?). Maybe the Bosch unit is a touch longer. Are there any ABS bits behind the alternator?
That is a good point, I will check it out. The guzzi rep at Daytona said they are adding ABS and traction control to the Griso and V7 line very soon.
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Have you actually tested the stock alternator?
The problem you describe matches the symptoms of the blown Big Fuse caused by the stock auxiliary lamps shorting out and killing the alternator energizing circuit.
Your alternator may be good and your main fuse behind the right side cover blown.
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The NTX alternator has not been a problem on any of the bikes I have seen or heard of. That is not say yours ain't bad, just not a common problem. What is a common problem, and consistent with what you described, is the aux lights shorting out...taking out the dreaded 30A fuze that excites the alternator. Then the bike is running off battery power, for a while. Double/triple check that fuze and that whole circuit. The fuze is NOT under the seat, it is behind the triangular panel just below the seat on the right side of the bike.
Bottom line, you are not going to be happy with that bike so it is best to get it fixed and move on.
Best of luck.
Peter Y.
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The NTX alternator has not been a problem on any of the bikes I have seen or heard of. That is not say yours ain't bad, just not a common problem. What is a common problem, and consistent with what you described, is the aux lights shorting out...taking out the dreaded 30A fuze that excites the alternator. Then the bike is running off battery power, for a while. Double/triple check that fuze and that whole circuit. The fuze is NOT under the seat, it is behind the triangular panel just below the seat on the right side of the bike.
Bottom line, you are not going to be happy with that bike so it is best to get it fixed and move on.
Best of luck.
Peter Y.
I will pass the info to my father. He loves the bike but it is getting to the point where he does not trust it. He does a lot of long distance trips to rallies around the US. His last trip up to Maine he rode his old 96 Cali which has never given any problems. On his first trip out when he bought the ntx new was from Tennessee to Seattle and back. He was in Missouri on his way back when the bearings fell out of the rear drive and he had to trailer it back to Tennessee. On his way to Barbers, in Alabama, the engine valve train was getting loud, so they checked it and the clearance was loose and they adjusted the valves. All seemed well till he got near home and the noise started up again. They checked and the valve was loose again. He contacted the dealer who told him of the cam issue. The cam lobe was wearing down. The dealer installed the new 2015 roller cam design, so hopefully that issue is done.
The bike has always been taken care of with all the regular maintenance done at the dealer, so the bike has not been abused. I guess he just got a bad apple. Maybe this is the last issue with the bike.
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....About ten miles before the battery went dead, we noticed the headlights on the bike shut down. I guess when the voltage drops, the ECU diverts all power to the ignition system and puts it in limp mode. We did not know the Alt was not charging, as we never saw a warning light and the bike was running fine. All of a sudden it just died and would not restart. We checked and the battery was dead. With all the trouble with this bike, we should have just pushed it into the woods and reported it stolen..
I agree with Peter Y. and Leafman, check that 30A fuse to see if it is blown. If so, replace it and don't turn on the Running Lights until you have installed a separate fuse in the lighting circuit to each one of them. Ride safe.
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Sorry for your Dad's troubles.
I couldn't help noticing that the Bosch unit you are thinking of using is labeled "Made in India." So, if you wanted to go with a non-Asian made alternator, or at least a first-world made one.... ?
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I thought they were made by Nippon Denso (Japan) on the early CARC bikes.
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I did see some denso units that were used on the early first gen Stelvios, Breva 1100 and Griso 4V but I believe they were only a 40 amp unit. My fathers bike is a 2012. Like one of the previous post stated, it seemed they changed alternators when they added the ABS and traction control. I know many companies have there products made in China, India and Mexico but those factories have to meet certain specs and quality control. What is odd about this alternator is it is not built by any regular electronics supplier (Bosch, Hitachi, Valeo, Denso, Mitsubishi, etc..). The problem with using a off brand alternator is trying to get it rebuilt or get parts for it.
We are going to look a the running light fuse issue before going further with the Alt. Hopefully it just something simple like this. He did take the starter to a local auto parts store and they only got 12V out of it but they were not sure about the plug set up.
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Karl, there is a very long thread here all about the aux lights and the problems associated with them. In that thread it talks about the circuit...that it feeds some of the lights as well as triggering the alternator. You might want to take a close look (an eye test, to be sure) at Greg Bender's wiring diagram to confirm exactly what is on that circuit. My NTX is a '12, as are Leafman's and ChuckH. I'm at 23K miles, Leafman at about 40K, and ChuckH probably has 30K+. Except for that darn 30A fuze we have not had any electrical problems but each of us has had to deal with the aux lights shorting out. It's guaranteed to happen unless one has been extremely careful with the routing of the wires within the light housing. I'm betting that you will find the problem to be with the aux lights and that you have gained lots of unnecessary wrenching experience taking the alternator off. Heck, I might need to get some hints some day when I have to replace my alt belt so please take some pictures.
Peter Y.
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My father checked out the 30amp fuse and it was fine. He metered the driving lights and they checked out ok, so he is going to do some more digging and see what he can come up with. He did say the Alt space was tight, so it is doubtful that the bosch unit would fit in there.
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WOW!!!!So that is what a flotation test is. OK, I'll bite. If it floats what do you do? And if it sinks? :BEER:
Matt
If it floats, throw it in the trash.
If it sinks, you don't have to.
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If it sinks, then you know it was innocent.
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My father took the Alt down to a automotive electrical shop. They said the alternator is a Denso copy and it is putting out near 14V. So he is going to reinstall it and start chasing down the wiring harness. So far the driving light circuit and fuses have checked out fine. Let the fun begin.
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just because it is putting out volts doesn't mean it is putting out enough amps.
I had a Nissan that would keep the battery charged during the day, but at night the battery would go dead.
I had it checked and it also showed voltage. I changed the battery, belt, but eventually changed the alternator and it fixed it.
Old Head
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The new electrical systems have some really thin air gaps (Rotor to Stator clearances). If the rotor is dragging even slightly it will cause voltage spikes and serious issues and be almost untraceable.
The permanent magnet alternators are sometimes very difficult to install without the magnetic force being a real issue in keeping the rotor and stator apart.
Look for scuff marks on the rotor and the stator for signs of contact.
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The Chinese just bought Pirelli tires so...
Lots of Bosch parts are made in China. The quality control is incumbent on the brand name and a lot of the factories over there run 3 shifts making the exact same parts but sell under no name brands.
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I think you'll find that Chengdu Huachuan is where the part was made, not the name of the company. Manufacturer is Zhejiang Zhengtian Electric Manufacturing Co.,Ltd.
JFZ 155 looks to be an automotive alternator, used by Kia, Iveco, etc.
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Lots of everything is made in China these days, auto parts included. Including the name brands. Bosch has factories all over the world including the US, Europe, India, South America, Mexico, and China.
Brand names and country of origin aren't necessarily indicators of quality.
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My BMW G650GS engine was assembled in China. Those engines had less problems than the ones from 'the old country', particularly concerning the water pump. Ducati, Triumph, and Honda all make motorcycles/parts in China. My mill, lathe, table saw (Delta), band saw, planer (Delta), jointer (Delta) all came from China. The Chinese factories will make to whatever quality level you are willing to pay. You want cheap...can do. You want high quality...not a problem, just costs a bit more.
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For all those people who spout "if it ain't Boeing, I'm not going!" well.......
Working on the 737NG's you find 'Made in All Sorts Of Places" stamped on all sorts of parts. Last night doing a hydraulic system internal leakage test on the A and B systems I noted both the Parker Hannifin pumps fitted had "Made in China" clearly stamped on them......
Happy Flying! Me personally, I'd be quite happy to.......
Sorry for the thread hijack/drift. :)
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Another problem with the PM magnet alternators is that the rotor picks up magnetic swarf while sitting around waiting to be reinstalled. I got a bike cheap once because they couldn't find the charging system problem. I pulled the alternator apart and found that it had collected so much metallic crap that it had ground out the inside of the stator.
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Just to bring this thread back to life (since someone else is having charging problems on a Stelvio)...what was the final diagnosis? Fess up.
Peter Y.
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Also, we know you can't get a longer alternator into the space. But can you get a fatter one in there?
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We just want to make sure there is not a feed back circuit or some other difference inside the Alt that is specific to the NTX, Norge 8V and Cali 1400 models that is not on the Bosch Griso Alt. From what we have been told, the ECU receives a signal from the charging circuit before supplying voltage to certain electrical circuits.
About ten miles before the battery went dead, we noticed the headlights on the bike shut down. I guess when the voltage drops, the ECU diverts all power to the ignition system and puts it in limp mode. We did not know the Alt was not charging, as we never saw a warning light and the bike was running fine. All of a sudden it just died and would not restart. We checked and the battery was dead. With all the trouble with this bike, we should have just pushed it into the woods and reported it stolen.....
Ditto for my Stelvio , exact same scenario . The alternator is being taken off as we speak . What a helluva job and am pretty pissed to hear about it's manufacturer . I guess the bottom line is the most important thing to these guys as is a corporation and for some naive reason thought they where a different bunch . I sure hate getting screwed over . Pretty damn frustrating after $16,000 CAD and only 15000 kms . I'd like to throw the old one through the front door of their ivory tower in Italy !
Maybe time to buy that Harley and join the converted .
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If you want to buy a cheap knock off that hasn't had the work put into it you will get what you pay for.
It's a sad day for Guzzi if they are going to stoop so low.
I challenge you to find any mass produced motor vehicle that does not contain at lest some Chinese parts.
I was under this impression these bikes where not mass produced unlike Honda , Yamaha and Suzuki that actually run trouble free !
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Harley has chineese parts as well, but I suppose you know that?
And the guzzi is assembled in Mandello by Italiens, an Italian job. Parts come from everywhere, like all things you buy.
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Harley has chineese parts as well, but I suppose you know that?
And the guzzi is assembled in Mandello by Italiens, an Italian job. Parts come from everywhere, like all things you buy.
Just a little frustrated like we all tend to get when throwing good money after bad . Lots of good Chinese manufacturers , maybe not so great quality control in Italy . My own experience with quirky problems over the years and seeing some of the boondoggles on this site tells me there are definitely quality control issues with these bikes . Something I'm willing to put up with until it's happening to me . My turn in the barrel so to speak .
Another problem surfaced while pulling the alternator which explains the increased vibration the last few hundred miles . The motor mount bolts at the cylinder heads were very loose and had no paint on them which means they may never have been torqued at the factory ! What next ?
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Just to bring this thread back to life (since someone else is having charging problems on a Stelvio)...what was the final diagnosis? Fess up.
Peter Y.
:+1
We are all waiting to hear it was NOT the Chinese alternator ???
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:+1
We are all waiting to hear it was NOT the Chinese alternator ???
The alternator when removed showed it was not charging . Brushes ok so took to an automotive electrical service garage for further testing hoping it was the regulator . I was quoted $250 for a new alternator by the dealer and told MG had no parts for individual alternators . Turns out the regulator was toast and they actually had one in stock to replace it so once replaced the alternator was good to go . New regulator instead of waiting for a possible used one from the dealer and 3 days to get it here means the Stelvio is in my garage ready to go . Thanks to Duane at Dragonfly Cycle and the guys at Island Rad & Battery I might get a ride in tomorrow .
I should mention the engine mounting bolts to frame at the cylinder heads were very loose which explains the vibration I've been experiencing for a while now . Duane figures they where never torqued as they were not painted . So having the alternator problem might be a blessing otherwise would not of been discovered until a far worse problem could of manifested . Maybe the vibration contributed to the regulator failure , who knows . Much smoother ride now and hope to be problem free for a while . There you go Roy , enough said ! :BEER:
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Can you give me a part # and cross refference for the regulator that they used? I've got a dead alt that I'm trying to resuscitate and knowing the generic # would save me a lot of arseing about.
Thanks.
Pete
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The alternator when removed showed it was not charging . Brushes ok so took to an automotive electrical service garage for further testing hoping it was the regulator . I was quoted $250 for a new alternator by the dealer and told MG had no parts for individual alternators . Turns out the regulator was toast and they actually had one in stock to replace it so once replaced the alternator was good to go . New regulator instead of waiting for a possible used one from the dealer and 3 days to get it here means the Stelvio is in my garage ready to go . Thanks to Duane at Dragonfly Cycle and the guys at Island Rad & Battery I might get a ride in tomorrow .
I should mention the engine mounting bolts to frame at the cylinder heads were very loose which explains the vibration I've been experiencing for a while now . Duane figures they where never torqued as they were not painted . So having the alternator problem might be a blessing otherwise would not of been discovered until a far worse problem could of manifested . Maybe the vibration contributed to the regulator failure , who knows . Much smoother ride now and hope to be problem free for a while . There you go Roy , enough said ! :BEER:
I wonder why the regulator burned up?
Regarding the engine bolts-
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=65635.0
Also be certain to tighten the hell out of the engine guard mounting points too. This greatly helped to quell vibes for me.
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Please give us some more detail on the regulator, is it part of the Chinese alternator?
The Chinese do make some good stuff, but I spent a lot of time there in the last few years, they have a different concept of QA
They may have used a cheap knockoff part somewhere to save a few cents.
I have no doubt they will sort it out if Guzzi threatens to look elsewhere.
We have Chinese customers tell us not to use Chinese parts like bearings in electric motors for instance.
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Yes , the alternator was dismantled , the regulator removed and replaced with a new one which was in stock , thankfully ! So not as bad as originally thought . I probably should get the part number and order one to have with me in case it happens again . I was in a hurry to get the alternator back for install as they wanted to get the bike finished by end of day .
Hows the Eldo restore going ?
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Can you give me a part # and cross refference for the regulator that they used? I've got a dead alt that I'm trying to resuscitate and knowing the generic # would save me a lot of arseing about.
Thanks.
Pete
I will get it to you first thing Monday morning Pete as soon as they open , silly of me not to get it when the damn thing was being replaced .
Steve
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We have Chinese customers tell us not to use Chinese parts like bearings in electric motors for instance.
Went over to a friends house to help him with his 'Wing. One of the things to do was an install of some new wheel bearings. He was proud of his score on a couple bearings for $5 each. Yes they were Chinese. I convinced him to at least remove the seal and check for grease. None to be found. The balls were not even kinda shiny. The bearings wore out before the tire. I wanted one of the bearings to check with a file to see if they were even hardened, but he trashed them before I got a set. I am a believer in the old song, you get what you pay for.
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I will get it to you first thing Monday morning Pete as soon as they open , silly of me not to get it when the damn thing was being replaced .
Steve
Thank you very much Steve.
Pete
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Last summer I had the same alternator smoke and die on my 2012 Norge. It happened just as the oil cooler fan came on. I mounted a car battery in the top box pulled the headlight fuse, drove the bike from Edson Alberta to Vancouver. (about 1200km) I got 37 km per 1/10th volt. There were no Chengdou alternators available in North America...shocking I know. At least through Guzzi. My dealer pulled one out of a new bike. I tried to find a alternate alternator no joy. So, it would be good to know this other number in case this happens again. Both Moto International and Pacific Motorsports (my dealer) said this was the first one to fail they have heard of (as of last summer).
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Thank you very much Steve.
Pete
The part number is IN254. Hope that's enough info because that's all they gave me . Let me know if it isn't Pete .
Steve
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The part number is IN254. Hope that's enough info because that's all they gave me . Let me know if it isn't Pete .
Steve
Did it look like this one? (http://store.alternatorparts.com/images/products/detail/11613.jpg)
Appears to be a very widely used part: http://store.alternatorparts.com/in254-voltage-regulator-for-denso-alternators.aspx
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Thanks. I'm in Queensland at the moment. Won't be able to chase it up until next week but I'll reprt back then.
Pete
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Did it look like this one? (http://store.alternatorparts.com/images/products/detail/11613.jpg)
Appears to be a very widely used part: http://store.alternatorparts.com/in254-voltage-regulator-for-denso-alternators.aspx
That's the one alright . Had it on the shelve at Island Rad and Battery . Was my lucky day !
Steve
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Just to dig this up again I picked one up yesterday. Haven't had a chance to fit it to the dead alt yet.
Thanks Steve.
Pete
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Please give us some more detail on the regulator, is it part of the Chinese alternator?
The Chinese do make some good stuff, but I spent a lot of time there in the last few years, they have a different concept of QA
They may have used a cheap knockoff part somewhere to save a few cents.
I have no doubt they will sort it out if Guzzi threatens to look elsewhere.
We have Chinese customers tell us not to use Chinese parts like bearings in electric motors for instance.
Can't be true, Roy. We're informed by experts here on the WG board that it makes NO difference what country anything comes from any more. Any country is capable of building crap at times, so that means that Chinese bearings are no more likely to be "bad" than German or Swedish-sourced bearings.
You can NOT use the country where any component was produced to make any judgment or decision at all about the potential quality of it. To do so smacks of ... oh, I won't say, but it's ugly and reflects badly on the character of anyone who dares say it.
So tighten up and fly right there. It's a new world now, get into step!! ;)
Lannis (It's a small world after all, It's a small world after all, It's a small world after all, it's a small, small world Sing it with me now, it's a small world after all ....)
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Well Lannis the replacement part is made in Korea. :D
I'm going to make a wild assumption and say probably not the North!
Pete
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Oddly enough we never did get a follow up from KARL VON, the OP. What's the deal? Was it that piece of crap Chinese Alternator, the horrible POS regulator, or maybe just a blown fuze. Inquiring minds asking.
Peter Y.
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Lannis,
I'm just a bad nasty person, what can I say!
I'm too long in the tooth for this politically correct BS
LOL
Sent from my shoe phone!
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Hmm, I don't think anyone was objecting to identifying junk as junk , but rather the idea that the only thing produced in China is junk . Of course once again , nothing better for advancing one's position than reducing an argument to complete absurdity and distorting the other side's position . Let's hope the Chinese have some clue , because almost all of the modern machine tooling used around the world is made in China .
Dusty
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Hmm, I don't think anyone was objecting to identifying junk as junk , but rather the idea that the only thing produced in China is junk . Of course once again , nothing better for advancing one's position than reducing an argument to complete absurdity and distorting the other side's position . Let's hope the Chinese have some clue , because almost all of the modern machine tooling used around the world is made in China .
Dusty
Dusty -
The only thing sillier than "reducing an argument to complete absurdity and distorting the other side's position" .... is inventing a position that NO ONE advanced and then act like you're responding to it.
Can you identify ANY post on these two pages full of posts where someone, anyone, said that "the only thing produced in China is junk?" Or anything like that?
Lannis
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Can't be true, Roy. We're informed by experts here on the WG board that it makes NO difference what country anything comes from any more. Any country is capable of building crap at times, so that means that Chinese bearings are no more likely to be "bad" than German or Swedish-sourced bearings.
You can NOT use the country where any component was produced to make any judgment or decision at all about the potential quality of it. To do so smacks of ... oh, I won't say, but it's ugly and reflects badly on the character of anyone who dares say it.
So tighten up and fly right there. It's a new world now, get into step!! ;)
Lannis (It's a small world after all, It's a small world after all, It's a small world after all, it's a small, small world Sing it with me now, it's a small world after all ....)
So is that not what you are implying here ?
Dusty
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I'm not saying all Chinese products are Junk, but a country where they think it's ok to put Melamine in baby formula because it tests like protein
would have no problem slipping a few off-spec components into a Guzzi alternator. If that reflects badly on me so be it.
The Electrical industry in Nth America is very concerned about the counterfeit components coming from China branded an labeled to look exactly like
a north American component but with workings that are downright dangerous.
I have a counterfeit Apple cell phone in my desk drawer that looks exactly like the real thing but works nothing like one.
BTW, the real Apples are also made in China, guess where the Chinese visitors go in Vancouver, straight to the Apple store to buy a Chinese Apple they
can't afford to buy in China. Not long ago they closed down a bogus Apple store in Beijing, even the employees thought it was a real store.
You can't make this stuff up.
As I said before I have spent a lot of time working in China over the last few years, I think I am qualified to comment on what I have seen.
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Just to dig this up again I picked one up yesterday. Haven't had a chance to fit it to the dead alt yet.
Thanks Steve.
Pete
Your welcome Pete , I have another one on order just in case . I've been checking my charge while running and all good , still nervous though , lol !
Steve
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So is that not what you are implying here ?
Dusty
Of course not. As has been pointed out many times, we use Chinese-made stuff every day and we're mostly still alive. Some things they do right.
But some Chinese things, like SKS rifles or Chang-Jiang motorcycles, ARE in the "junk" class. Nobody here buys Chinese cars, because they don't even come close to meeting the standards of performance and quality that we expect when we buy a car. Most rebuilders won't use Chinese bearings if they can get American or European-made ones, because the metallurgy isn't up to snuff.
In my sardonic reply to Roy, I was referring back to the Hyosung post where the position was that "You can't go by what country it's made it to determine if it's good or not". For some things, you CAN, and everyone knows it, even if they don't say it for fear of being called a racist or xenophobe or bigot. I don't have that particular fear, so I don't mind saying it .....
Lannis
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Roy , I completely agree , any country that would allow such a thing to happen has a problem . Kind of like all of the sawdust in American breads , and the recent outbreak of Listeria in Bluebell ice cream , which according to local sources the company knew about and crossed their fingers and hoped for the best . I think these may be cases of corporate greed , and not an issue with a country .
Lannis , you will notice that I never used the terms racist , or Xenophobe , because they are a cheap way to attack the opponent , like using the term political correctness is a cheap shot , meant to diminish an opponent in debate .
Dusty
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Roy , I completely agree , any country that would allow such a thing to happen has a problem . Kind of like all of the sawdust in American breads , and the recent outbreak of Listeria in Bluebell ice cream , which according to local sources the company knew about and crossed their fingers and hoped for the best . I think these may be cases of corporate greed , and not an issue with a country .
Dusty
Yes, and all that stuff happens just as often in America as it does in China. Pretty bad, I'd say.
Lannis
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Just to toss in my $.02 take on it.
I worked for a large electronics engineering and manufacturing organization for a few decades. As they outsourced my job to cheaper locations, I trained people in Ireland, Mexico, Brazil and China. Well, and South Carolina..... ~;
The Irish would try to 'cheat' my test requirements. When I caught them doing it, we would have a beer over it. I always like working with them. But I was never sure they were following the processes.
The Chinese would try to cheat the system too. When I caught them, they would just tell me that they fired so and so over it. I never liked working with them and never really trusted the results.
Notice the main difference is the beer.
:BEER:
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So is that not what you are implying here ?
Dusty
Sure he is. Just in what he imagines to be a clever and plausibly deniable way. ::)
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Wayne , beer is always the difference ;D
Dusty
I like the way you think :D at least after knock off time
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Well then....this new knowledge means I have now lost interest in new Moto Guzzi's.
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Will send my 2 bits into this discussion among this group's heavyweights. The problem is that "China" is huge and diverse. And, we have insufficient knowledge of the individual producers and insufficient trust that their government will provide adequate oversight to ensure a solid quality 'floor.' The highest quality products in the world may be coming out of "China" but really they are coming from particular high quality producers that are in China. I personally do not have high confidence in the "Made in China" brand, the way I do for the "Made in the EU" or even "Made in the USA" brands, due solely to my concerns about the lack of conscientiously enforced quality regulations in China. It's basically a new society (b.1949) trying out a new economic system (since the '80s) and needs time to sort out the proper role for regulation. At this point I would, assuming as a consumer I am ignorant of the specific quality standards of the company producing the item, default to comparing regulatory systems and would buy European or American. If, however, a company with a brand to protect (e.g. Apple, or even Piaggio) chooses to hitch their brand to a parts producer in a country with a weak regulatory climate, I would tend to base my decision on the brand value of the end product. That is, Apple (or even Piaggio) has a lot to lose by putting in a poor quality component, and I rely on their vetting process to protect the goodwill associated with their own name.
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Will send my 2 bits into this discussion among this group's heavyweights. The problem is that "China" is huge and diverse. And, we have insufficient knowledge of the individual producers and insufficient trust that their government will provide adequate oversight to ensure a solid quality 'floor.' The highest quality products in the world may be coming out of "China" but really they are coming from particular high quality producers that are in China. I personally do not have high confidence in the "Made in China" brand, the way I do for the "Made in the EU" or even "Made in the USA" brands, due solely to my concerns about the lack of conscientiously enforced quality regulations in China. It's basically a new society (b.1949) trying out a new economic system (since the '80s) and needs time to sort out the proper role for regulation. At this point I would, assuming as a consumer I am ignorant of the specific quality standards of the company producing the item, default to comparing regulatory systems and would buy European or American. If, however, a company with a brand to protect (e.g. Apple, or even Piaggio) chooses to hitch their brand to a parts producer in a country with a weak regulatory climate, I would tend to base my decision on the brand value of the end product. That is, Apple (or even Piaggio) has a lot to lose by putting in a poor quality component, and I rely on their vetting process to protect the goodwill associated with their own name.
Exactly. A sub-contractor is only as good as the company that puts its name on the final product.
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Yeah , no idea who the heavyweights Nic is referring to are , his comment is the best on this subject so far ;-T
Dusty
Can't be me, I've dropped about 30 pounds lately. But you're right .... this is exactly what I said and Nic's got it, without being accused of being a xenophobic "hater" ...
"I personally do not have high confidence in the "Made in China" brand, the way I do for the "Made in the EU" or even "Made in the USA" brands, due solely to my concerns about the lack of conscientiously enforced quality regulations in China. "
Salute!
Lannis
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Perhaps we should just wait and see if any more Chinese parts fail. It seems like there is a good inexpensive fix, a Japanese replacement regulator so it must be a design farmed out for manufacture. It's cheap enough that you could have one on the shelf, hopefully the dealers
will take that into consideration.
http://store.alternatorparts.com/in254-voltage-regulator-for-denso-alternators.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denso
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FWIW the one I bought cost me $48AU inc GST @10%..
Pete
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I did
Your point is?
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Trust me, you don 't want to know what the Chinese eat!
Sent from my shoe phone!
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So... anyone notice this Bosch unit is made in India ? ~; Dusty
I did
Your point is?
Not made in Germany? Europe?
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Our own member Phang put up some delightful pictures of some Singaporean delicacies a few years back. Dunno if they were Chinese or Malay inspired but the deep fries spiders were, Errr? Interesting, from a western perspective! ;D
Pete
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Trust me, you don 't want to know what the Chinese eat!
Sent from my shoe phone!
Our daughter in law (Hong Kong) will sit beside me during a feast and tell me whether I want to try that or not. ;D Remember the TV show "Fear Factor" where they used to make people eat stuff? "Oh, that good! A little garlic.." ;D
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Trust me, you don 't want to know what the Chinese eat!
Sent from my shoe phone!
I worked for a great company out of Hong Kong for a few years and lunch was an adventure everyday . Good thing I was brought up to eat what was put in front of me .
After seeing pictures of scorpions and other insects for sale in an open market from a buddy who went to Cambodia and Vietnam recently I think I got off easy !
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My father finally found the issue, it was a bad socket on one of the relays inside the fairing. The relays all tested fine on the bench, he even purchased new heavy duty relays from a electrical shop and nothing changed. After going through the wiring harness and testing the connectors he found the issue. I had a similar issue on the fuse block on my guzzi sport a few years back.
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Skip,
Thanks for the follow up on this.
Peter Y.
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My father finally found the issue, it was a bad socket on one of the relays inside the fairing. The relays all tested fine on the bench, he even purchased new heavy duty relays from a electrical shop and nothing changed. After going through the wiring harness and testing the connectors he found the issue. I had a similar issue on the fuse block on my guzzi sport a few years back.
Always good to hear the end of the tale! Thanks!
Lannis
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Yes , thanks ;-T
Dusty
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Looked through this topic, but in between cultural and culinary discussions I could not find if the regulator can be exchanged without removing the alternator. I seem to have a defective unit as well. (see other thread http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=91891.0 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=91891.0))
Apologies for re-opening this old topic.
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So it wasn't the "Chinese" alternator. It was the "German" relay. Ach du lieber! :grin: :grin: :grin: The bike is a 2012 model and has been used for touring so has mileage. Some parts will fail.
If you're on the same train of thought for the country of origin for parts. BEWARE SKF bearings has a factory in Dailian, China. Swedish company. :grin: Moto Guzzi owner Arthur helped set it up on contract. He's a German National and his wife Sumi is Indian. He has a blue on blue EV in Germany. Don't know what he's riding in NC. So if you want you can blame him. :shocked:
Damn shift spring broke in my Eldo hack. Friggin' things don't last forever. :rolleyes:
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Actually it was the 'who knows where it was made' plug for that relay. The wiring may well have come from Japan, looks like the Stelvio switch gear is something from Denso (good stuff, IMHO). I think this thread did a good job of bringing out the worst pre formed opinions from what is generally a pretty level headed group.
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:1: :thumb: