Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: kevdog3019 on April 07, 2015, 08:40:18 AM
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Ok, I'll preface this by saying I'm not a hocus pocus type but do like to keep an open mind. I decided to try Marvel Mystery Oil for the first time in my fuel for kicks. I've never heard it kills an engine, so...
Did my first application recently at just over half the recommended amount. Did this in the super Lario with higher compression, etc.
What I've noticed is a heightened idle and the bike runs well. Not sure yet that it runs better than before, but it certainly runs at least as well. More time will tell.
This stuff consists of naptha, rubbing alcohol and a minor dash of some woop dee doo. I've looked at the specs. So... it appears that this would slightly raise the octane rating? Is that correct? Basically aren't you just adding a little more alcohol to the mix? Just want to wrap my head around this. I suspect higher octane with higher compression could lend a helpful hand.
Anyone have their own findings? Don't mean to start another oil thread, but since Sea Foam got it's due respect...
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I've only used it in my air tools, they work great with it in there!
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I use it in the crank case on my older vehicles. It really cleans up the engine. We have a 2001 civic that was turning the fresh oil dirty every oil change. We started using the marvel and after a couple oil changes the oil was staying clean until the next service... why does it work?? Its a mystery
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I always thought it was pure snake oil. then had a stuck lifter on the old Old's, poured some into the engine and it fixed it! really!
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Mix it half and half with Acetone and it will free up a stuck engine and many other things.
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Mix it half and half with Acetone and it will free up a stuck engine and many other things.
That and I also use it to lubricate cables back in the day when we lubricated cables. :BEER:
Matt
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Antique airplane guys use it all the time. It's a great upper cylinder lubricant, frees up gummed up rings and sticky valves caused by sitting for long periods. So, Kevin.. the Lario been sitting too much? ~; ;D
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It's the whoop De Doo stuff in it that makes it work so well.
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Antique airplane guys use it all the time. It's a great upper cylinder lubricant, frees up gummed up rings and sticky valves caused by sitting for long periods. So, Kevin.. the Lario been sitting too much? ~; ;D
Noooooooooooooooooo oo!! It's getting its due respect this year. Last year was sort/build and this year is ride. I've got to run the damned thing in yet so it's not through developing. ;)
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This is the best use of it on a motorcycle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ-uf4YyeHI
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Isn't MMO just ATF?
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It is famous among model airplane folks for storing model engines as well as 'unsticking' them. The nitro 2 strokes will gum up if not cleaned out before storing.
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data sheet
Naphthenic Hydrocarbons 64742-52-5 70 – 80
Mineral Spirits 08052-41-3 20 – 30
Chlorinated Hydrocarbons 00095-50-1 0 – 1
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Ive been using it as gun oil for years!
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Alcohol, while having a higher octane raing will REDUCE power unless the engine needs higher octane as alk has less BTUs available. And mileage will go down.
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Alcohol, while having a higher octane raing will REDUCE power unless the engine needs higher octane as alk has less BTUs available. And mileage will go down.
Mileage goes down with higher octane? I've never heard of folks using premium gas that said "I like it because I get lower mileage". I've heard the contrary several times but never thought the reward was worth the extra price personally. Are these people dreaming thinking their mileage is better with higher octane?
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Mileage goes down with higher octane? I've never heard of folks using premium gas that said "I like it because I get lower mileage". I've heard the contrary several times but never thought the reward was worth the extra price personally. Are these people dreaming thinking their mileage is better with higher octane?
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Octane has no bearing on mileage . What TC is referring to is that alcohol only has about 65% as much energy per gallon as gasoline , thus , lower mileage .
Dusty
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Octane has no bearing on mileage . What TC is referring to is that alcohol only has about 65% as much energy per gallon as gasoline , thus , lower mileage .
Dusty
Alcohol dragsters should be using gasoline. What are they thinking? I have lots to learn.
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Alcohol dragsters should be using gasoline. What are they thinking? I have lots to learn.
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Alcohol dragsters and other ethanol/methanol burning IC engines consume more fuel than gasoline engines . Ethanol/methanol has a higher octane rating than gasoline allowing for much higher CRs . Nothing to do with energy per gallon .
Dusty
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Copied from another forum:
"From Brian Hampton's fuel page, methanol has 9,970 BTU/lb. and gasoline (petrol) has 19,000 BTU/lb. But the stoichiometric ratio, at which these fuels burn almost completely, are 6.44:1 and 15.0:1 respectively. This means the amount of methanol burnt is 2.33 times greater than the amount of gasoline.
This would eventually mean the same amount of oxygen, chemically combined with methanol, will produce 22% more BTUs, than when combined with gasoline. The amount of air per cycle is the constant that limits power, in a naturally aspirated engine. Adding more fuel will just cause the engine to emit more unburnt hydrocarbons.
So, burning straight methanol will give you roughly 22% more HP than gasoline, while being consumed at over twice the rate."
http://home.wanadoo.nl/pereivers/fuels_1.htm
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They run Methanol...
Which oddly enough produces about half as many BTUs per gallon than gasoline . This octane thing is greatly misunderstood .
Dusty
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This is the best use of it on a motorcycle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ-uf4YyeHI
Interesting video. I've never used Marvel Mystery Oil as an aluminum/chrome polish. He demonstrates that it's great.
Any try it?
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Premium fuel does have less energy than regular fuel. The difference is the engine that the fuel is used in.
If an engine requires premium it usually means it is running at a higher compression ratio, which normally means more power. If you run such an engine on regular fuel it will detonate (ping) which lowers power and is damaging to the engine. Hence premium fuel "makes more power".
If you have an engine that runs fine on regular fuel, if you put premium in it you will get less power/mileage, not more. I used to have bookmarked some dyno tests that showed it, but, no more :( FWIW, the difference is small.
In modern engines it is difficult to tell sometimes because the engines have knock sensors that will alter engine timing. Best advice is to use the fuel the engine is designed for.
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Charlie , I think Premium fuel only has less energy than 87 octane if it uses ethanol to achieve the higher rating . My understanding is that gasoline produces 117,000 BTUs per gallon , and ethanol 67,000 BTUs . Other than that , yes , you are correct . One thing about lower octane fuels is that they will ignite easier , that is probably why in a low CR engine they make a bit more power .
Dusty
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Best advice is to use the fuel the engine is designed for.
Now that is crazy talk.
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If you have an engine that runs fine on regular fuel, if you put premium in it you will get less power/mileage, not more.
that is my understanding also..
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that is my understanding also..
:D :D :D :D
Yeah , but try explaining that to the believers ;D We painted one of the big refineries in Tulsa , 1971 , Sunray DX . Every major , and some minor brands , had trucks hauling gasoline out of there everyday .
Dusty
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:D :D :D :D
Yeah , but try explaining that to the believers ;D We painted one of the big refineries in Tulsa , 1971 , Sunray DX . Every major , and some minor brands , had trucks hauling gasoline out of there everyday .
Dusty
Seriously, I got better mileage running 87 in the Centauro. No less than Will Creedon said using regular was fine on it, so I did. I've since read that there was more energy in "regular" than 'hi test". Whatever. Worked for me..
That said, I'd run "hi test" in the normal 2 valve motors.
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Seriously, I got better mileage running 87 in the Centauro. No less than Will Creedon said using regular was fine on it, so I did. I've since read that there was more energy in "regular" than 'hi test". Whatever. Worked for me..
That said, I'd run "hi test" in the normal 2 valve motors.
Energy is the same , burn characteristics are different . Why do you run premium in a 2 valve low compression ditch pump ?
Dusty
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Energy is the same , burn characteristics are different . Why do you run premium in a 2 valve low compression ditch pump ?
Dusty
To avoid detonation on a less than optimum combustion chamber design?
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To avoid detonation on a less than optimum combustion chamber design?
Are we talking LM motors , hot rod SBs , or just regular Cali engines ? Never had a Cali ping on 87 , even in 100 degree weather .
Dusty
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Are we talking LM motors , hot rod SBs , or just regular Cali engines ? Never had a Cali ping on 87 , even in 100 degree weather .
Dusty
LMs. So far, I've been running premium in the Aero Lario, too.. but probably being over cautious.
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So getting back to the Marvel; are we saying it's raising (very slightly) the octane, not lowering, correct?
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So getting back to the Marvel; are we saying it's raising (very slightly) the octane, not lowering, correct?
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Neither. It's a lubricant.
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Neither. It's a lubricant.
Lubricant and solvent?
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Oil in the fuel will lower the Octane rating. As long as you are not putting much in, I can't see a problem with using it. Mike
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Charlie , I think Premium fuel only has less energy than 87 octane if it uses ethanol to achieve the higher rating . My understanding is that gasoline produces 117,000 BTUs per gallon , and ethanol 67,000 BTUs . Other than that , yes , you are correct . One thing about lower octane fuels is that they will ignite easier , that is probably why in a low CR engine they make a bit more power .
Dusty
The tests I referred to were before ethanol.
The lab tests we did were with a test engine, variable compression ratio. At any one compression ratio the lower octane fuel made more power, unless there was pinging. If the lower octane fuel caused pinging then the higher octane fuel would make more power.
This was all a very slim margin. 5% maybe.
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The tests I referred to were before ethanol.
The lab tests we did were with a test engine, variable compression ratio. At any one compression ratio the lower octane fuel made more power, unless there was pinging. If the lower octane fuel caused pinging then the higher octane fuel would make more power.
This was all a very slim margin. 5% maybe.
That is interesting . Seems as though I have read something that also confirmed your test results , lots of urban myths regarding octane . Once again , lower octane gasoline ignites easier than higher octane , so while the energy contained is the same , it would be easier to extract same the energy .
As for using a bit of MMO , or any "top" oil , I know that older 2 stroke engines will make a bit more power on higher oil/gasoline ratios because of better ring seal, don't know if that would also apply to 4 stroke engines , modern ring and cylinder designs being so good .
Dusty
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I'm not trying to pull anything more out of the engine by using this stuff, just find it interesting the idle went up a tad. This happened also the one time I had lower octane in my other lario, so...
This is more an experiment and figure a little extra lube (and solvent) for the top end and carbs can't hurt. Makes sense to me at least as long as there isn't detrimental running affects.
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Here's another bit of information, Kevdog: In the 2-stroke world, it's known that oil in gasoline replaces some of the gasoline. That is, since oil doesn't burn and produce power, it effectively reduces the amount of gasoline in the mixture. This means a gasoline/oil mixture will cause a leaner mixture than straight gasoline. Guys running premix in 2-stroke engines usually have to jet slightly richer to get the same results as engines that have oil injection that's separate from the carburetors.
So adding oil to your gasoline made the mixture a little leaner, which could raise the idle speed if the mixture had been slightly on the rich side before. I'm not saying that this is definitely what happened, but it's a possibility.
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Several years ago (2 Guzzi's since) I had used the MMO to reduce slippage with the wet clutch on my 1980 Gold Wing. Replaced 1 litre in the oil and ran for about 500 kms. It did work! Was also reported to be able to loosen stuck rings. Don't know if it did.
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It is the chlorinated hydrocarbons in MMO that give it the extra kick. This makes things real slick and keeps them clean at the same time. I understand it has some serious long term corrosive effects when it is burned and that it has some serious problems with below zero temperature operation. That is the reason chlorinated hydrocarbons are not used in conventional oil formulas. So long as you are aware of the limitations it can prove very useful for specialized applications. I don't think its use as a continual (ie. added with every tank) fuel lubricant is as good as some of the formulas like FP 60 because of the corrosion issue. It probably works because the amount is low but why take the risk when tailor made fuel lubricants are available? I know I will get flamed for saying this but in old carbureted cars and bikes, a 0.5% dose of modern smokeless two stroke oil can be a good idea. Using something like FP PLUS or FP 60 is a very safe way to get the same effect with a guarantee of cleanliness. It also works like STABIL in preserving gas for storage.
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Here's another bit of information, Kevdog: In the 2-stroke world, it's known that oil in gasoline replaces some of the gasoline. That is, since oil doesn't burn and produce power, it effectively reduces the amount of gasoline in the mixture. This means a gasoline/oil mixture will cause a leaner mixture than straight gasoline. Guys running premix in 2-stroke engines usually have to jet slightly richer to get the same results as engines that have oil injection that's separate from the carburetors.
So adding oil to your gasoline made the mixture a little leaner, which could raise the idle speed if the mixture had been slightly on the rich side before. I'm not saying that this is definitely what happened, but it's a possibility.
Yup...And with high compression racing engines running leaner for best power a bit of oil past the rings or guides can cause destructive detonation.
A few months ago I got involved in a lengthy discussion with more experienced engine builders and the theory that high octane fuel burns slower....It's not that simple and not all high octane fuel burns slower than 87 octane...Some burn faster ...It depends on the fuel chemistry but the basic idea is higher octane ignites at a higher temperature than low octane to prevent spontaneous ignition of combustion end gasses. The combustion process and detonation is complex and I don't full understand it...
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...I got involved in a lengthy discussion with more experienced engine builders and the theory that high octane fuel burns slower....It's not that simple and not all high octane fuel burns slower than 87 octane...Some burn faster ...It depends on the fuel chemistry but the basic idea is higher octane ignites at a higher temperature than low octane to prevent spontaneous ignition...
I wish that information would spread around the Internet as fast as "high octane fuel has a lower burn rate" did.
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Yup...And with high compression racing engines running leaner for best power a bit of oil past the rings or guides can cause destructive detonation.
A few months ago I got involved in a lengthy discussion with more experienced engine builders and the theory that high octane fuel burns slower....It's not that simple and not all high octane fuel burns slower than 87 octane...Some burn faster ...It depends on the fuel chemistry but the basic idea is higher octane ignites at a higher temperature than low octane to prevent spontaneous ignition of combustion end gasses. The combustion process and detonation is complex and I don't full understand it...
A guy on this list who owns multiple Guzzis and keeps them ALL in excellent running shape all the time, puts a pint of kerosene into each 5-gallon tank of fuel on his bikes.
His bikes always start up instantly even if they've been sitting for a long time, he has no rust inside his steel tanks, and the bikes run great at idle and on the road.
I know it works, but I've never had the nerve to do it myself. And I wouldn't even start to guess WHY it works; only that, empirically, it does work .....
Lannis
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A guy on this list who owns multiple Guzzis and keeps them ALL in excellent running shape all the time, puts a pint of kerosene into each 5-gallon tank of fuel on his bikes.
His bikes always start up instantly even if they've been sitting for a long time, he has no rust inside his steel tanks, and the bikes run great at idle and on the road.
I know it works, but I've never had the nerve to do it myself. And I wouldn't even start to guess WHY it works; only that, empirically, it does work .....
Lannis
My bikes and Jeeps run the same way on pump fuel with nothing added....If it works then do it to find out...
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My bikes and Jeeps run the same way on pump fuel with nothing added....If it works then do it to find out...
Mine don't. Anything in my shop that sits for several months with the modern witch's brew that passes for fuel in the tanks end up with rust and clogged up pilot jets, and then rough running from the stale fuel ...
Lannis
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Lannis , my Guzzi always starts , no rust in the tank , no carbon build up , 120K miles , all W/O the aid of jet fuel :D Heck , my old /5 had about 160K , same thing until it broke a valve . Well , there was the weekend when Guzzistajohn and Kirby had to push start me a couple of times due to the ball point pen springs used in the accelerator pumps rusting out and clogging the jets up a bit , hmm , maybe "jet" fuel would have helped ;D
Dusty
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The mysterious Whoop TeeDoo smells like Oil of Wintergreen. Maybe???
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The mysterious Whoop TeeDoo smells like Oil of Wintergreen. Maybe???
Best stuff for aches and pains , but walk into a pharmacy now days and ask for a bottle of it ???
Dusty