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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Adamus on April 07, 2015, 04:27:53 PM

Title: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 07, 2015, 04:27:53 PM: Welcome everyone. This is my first post here. Im really happy to się so much MG fans ...I really count on you guys..

From beginning

I bought 2003 MG California in 2008 with 15tkm on tacho. This hydro Beauty was running excellent until last sommer. Some funny nosie has started to come out from right side.
On cold motor everythink was ok but when the motor became hot, the clickig was very anoying comming from intake valve at right cylinder. Today I have 40 tkm and bitg issue with hydraulic tappets. I opened right head to search for root cause.I found one tappet at intake valve which looked like somebody opened it before..so my suspition pushed my to exchange this tappet ... Of course situation hasnt change at all...than i found out this forum and many informations that this type has a general issue with timming system and hydraulic lifters. So i took my Vin mumber to My local MG dealer ( I live in Poland - eastern Europe) and asked him for reacall action ... The answere was really astonishing... "There was no recall action for your motobike except exhange of part of front suspension...." This is somethink what is really hard to belive to me because all sympthoms of failure are redirecting my to camshaft ans hydraulic system.
The situation for today is that I replaced hydraulic tappets but...i had to put 2mm washer under tappet to be able to delete gap between rocker arm and pushrood...anyway on sergice instructin there are visible washers but in my case below thia bloody tappet washer was missing. Could somebody check in your country my Vin number if camshaft recall actin is also asigned to my bike??? I have a feeling that my dealer wants to charge me for repair and all parts. ..so guys please check my VIN ZGUKDC1203M111746.. Meantime I will check oil pressure for hot and cold engine. One last think.. Since I bought it I used 15w50 oil...because MG dealer suggested this ....today I know that 5w40 should be used for hydrofornia....any ideas how to resolve this problem?..
Thx
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Vasco DG on April 07, 2015, 05:01:17 PM: Can you post up a picture of the valves and rocker gear with the tappet cover off the engine. This is the first step in determining if the recall is needed or has been carried out properly.

Unfortunately it may be that your bike was supposed to have had the recall performed and it has been noted as having been done but the work may not of been carried out. It could also be that it wasn't carried out correctly.

Getting any further action is likely to be very difficult simply because the machine is now over twelve years old. If the work is recorded as having been performed then I'm afraid it may well be that you have no recourse but to try and find the parts to fix it yourself.

A failure may also be down to the oil pump being damaged by a previous failure.

Pete
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Vasco DG on April 07, 2015, 07:30:10 PM: Just re-reading your post are you suggesting that you have simply replaced the lifter and removed the clearance by adding shims beneath it? If so I suggest you do not start the engine or ride it again as the tappet is below the lifter and it is this wearing away that is providing the excessive clearance. Eventually the foot of the tappet will wear away completelyandthe lifter and pushrod may fall through and cause damage to the crankcase or barrel.

I the picture below you can see the tappet, part# 2 and above it the lifter, part# 20. You cannot access or remove the tappets from the top of the engine. They have to be withdrawn through the front cam bearing or by dropping the sump after the cam is removed.

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8826/16449833144_08caff8453_o.jpg)

Pete
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: rodekyll on April 07, 2015, 08:34:42 PM: I'm concerned about that unadjustable tappet. I've done some of these procedures and don't recall having to cheat that way to get my tappet preload right. I've always been able to put in the adjusting slug, turn down the adjuster to specs, replace the slug with the real lifter and be some with it. I'm worried that as Pete says, either the bottom of the cam follower is being ground down or the cam lobe itself is shedding. Could be both. Could be a simple bent pushrod. I think I'd drop the pan and inspect for chunks in the oil and sump before doing much more with it.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: dilligaf on April 07, 2015, 09:11:33 PM: English is the common language of the EU. ;D :BEER:
Matt
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: krglorioso on April 07, 2015, 11:34:57 PM: Adamus: Sorry to bring more possible bad news, but your 2003 California model may be one that came with a single plate clutch. These do not last much beyond the present distance your bike has covered. There is a rubber plug pressed into the clutch cover just above the brake pedal. If you remove the plug, the type of clutch, single or dual plate, will be revealed to one who knows what to look for. If you don't take it to a Guzzi dealer.

There is another mandatory inspection of the early "hydro" models and this is the front fork's lower triple clamp. The steel tube of the steering stem is a press fit into the triple clamp. Some of these (marked "35-02" usually, had the hole for the steering stem drilled a tiny bit undersized. The result is that when the steering stem was pressed into the hole, the casting of the triple clamp cracked radially from the hole. It is very easy to examine the bottom of your bike's triple clamp for cracks. My understanding is that Guzzi will warranty defective lower triple clamps regardless of age of bike since this is a serious safety problem.

If all this is disappointing, I own two "hydro" Stones, a 2003 and a 2004, properly sorted and upgraded, and they are wonderful bikes.

Ralph
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 08, 2015, 01:59:17 PM: Hi everyone

thx for answere to my topic!!!

So...it seems that I have a total disaster here.I measured oil preasure today.On cold engine I have 4bar on iddlespeed and at any speed of crankshaft.
That means that overflow valve works ok and the preasure is set to 4 bar.
After 15minutes ,when the motor becomes hot ,oil preasure dopped down to about 1 bar.)))
Does anyone know what should be the oil pressure value for hydro-cali (on cold and hot engine)??

@ Vasco DG - Of course I put orginal lifter into the engine. I just put shims between follower and lifter. I did not replace lifter wit shims only.)))

@Rodekyll -pushrods are ok - they are not bent..Yes it is strange that I need to put there shim between follower and lifter in size of 2 mm to get the proper presetting! That means that follower of cam lobe is worn out. But on other hand you can see in explode view that orginally MG put there shims!! Of course my local dealer did not know about it!!I asked him several times about that so he was really surprised..

link to video from measurement

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-MWYIc_fdM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOLhnXcIgSA

you can see here rocker amr type.

PS. Sorry for my English..yes I know I need to improove it to comunicate it in better way especially when using technical statements.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: rodekyll on April 08, 2015, 02:12:39 PM: Being a hydro, it ~~can be~~ is probably the cam lobe itself that is going flat. One of the design changes was to change the oil holes in the hydro cam to better oil the lobes.

My hydro runs at pressure relief whenever it's off idle until it's really warmed up -- which doesn't happen much inn Sitka. At idle it will drop below 20# at idle on a hot day. I have an alarm set for 10# (not that 10# at idle is a bad thing, but that's when I want to know about it). The only time the alarm has flashed is once on Canada day when I got caught in hot weather on a looooong uphill grade in the stop-and-slow traffic of what turned out to be a parade. I pulled off for lunch to let the traffic thin and the bike cool down.

the really memorable part of the stop was when I was getting ready to leave. Two guys who'd been arguing inside came out, got into their trucks and squealed tires as they backed into each other. They separated and bashed each other repeatedly. Nobody seemed real excited by it. I exited the parking lot by another route without waiting to see who won. There were no chain saws involved.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Vasco DG on April 08, 2015, 04:34:54 PM: Quote from: Adamus on April 08, 2015, 01:59:17 PM

@ Vasco DG - Of course I put orginal lifter into the engine. I just put shims between follower and lifter. I did not replace lifter wit shims only.)))

You misunderstand me. I wasn't thinking that you had replaced the lifter with shims, simply saying it is unlikely that the lifter is the problem, the problem is the tappet or the cam lobe or both.

Oh, and I just looked at the video. The bike does need the recall, it has never been carried out, if the recall has been done there would be snapped off adjusters on the rockers at the pushrod end of the rockers.

Pete

[/quote]
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 08, 2015, 04:50:22 PM: @vasco dg

Did you see my rocker arms? How does it look like? Was there any recall done?
Since there are no adjustment screews I supoose no .
Anyway I measured clearance between rocker arm and valve with empty lifter (oil drained)

Intake valve (the noisy one) with shim 2,2mm clearance measured 0,7mm
Exhaust Valve (ok) with orginal shim 1mm clearance measured 1,8 mm

So it seems that 2,2 mm shim is not needed . Before I installed 2,2 shim i tried with 1mm but I after engine startup noise was still there. So i stopped the engine an installed 2,2mm , started again and it was ok until motor was hot again.
Is there any initial procedure for first startup with empty lifters? I supose if i would wait longer with the orginal shim (1mm) result would be the same.

After clearance measure I started up engine again. Exhaust valve was refiled after 5-6 seconds ,,intake very very long and after 10 minutes at iddle speed noise was back again.

Facts:
1) I have two new lifters - they are 100% ok
2) oil pressure is very low when engine is hot
3) knocking is audible always when oil pressure goes down
4) at low oil pressure even on oposite head valves are generating quiet knocking
5) oil in my engine is 15w50 fresh replaced
6) at intake valve shim was missing

So im at the point where I need to make a decision wheter start to open engin (disaembly timimng , camshaft oil pump etc) or put the bike for repair to any motobike service.

Before I start with disasebmly I woul like to to ask you for a favour!
Could someone please call some loacal MG dealer in US just to check my model if any engine recall was asigned.
I just need this information to push our dealer in PL. For today they keep sayojg that MG hasn't any ossues woth cam lofters and so on.. (My VIN ZGUKDC1203M111746)

@krgloriso
Recall aćtion for lower tripple clapm was let say " done" in my case.
Some weeks after i bought my machine (2008year) I dicovered this issue. I went to our MG dealer in PL for informing him about it. He organized rplacement part free of charge but I had to install it on my own or pay for service labour. Of course I did it on my own.:)
Thx
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: rodekyll on April 08, 2015, 05:07:25 PM: What you are describing is going to be catastrophically fatal in a few more engine ticks. This is by no means anywhere near normal. I can't stress this enough --
YOU ARE DESTROYING YOUR ENGINE BY CONTINUING TO START IT WITHOUT FIXING WHAT'S WRONG
. The clatter you hear are the internal bits slapping each other into grit.

You really need to remove the sump and do a visual check of the camshaft. You can see it from underneath. You should also check the sump and oil for metal bits.

As Pete says, the photo evidence says the recall has not been done.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Vasco DG on April 08, 2015, 05:19:02 PM: Adamus, it isn't the lifters that are at fault, it's the cam and tappets that will be worn.

I'll try calling our importer today for you if one of the dealers here can't run your VIN# through their system, the problem for me is that in Australia we, the dealers and service agents, don't have direct access to the warranty and recall system due to our very small market we have to ask the importer and I know that at the moment they are short staffed and have the main technical bloke on holiday but I'll see what I can do.

In reality probably the best and easiest, as well as cheapest sollution, might be to do what we arranged to do for one of our NZ members who had the same problem. Buy another non-hydro lifter motor second hand, (We used a V11 Sport motor.) and put that into your Cali. You can pick up very cheap, low mileage, motors in the USA and although shipping wouldn't be cheap it would be cheaper than most of the other options available to you if you have to pay for the parts and work yourself.

Pete

PS. Don't worry about your English. You're doing just fine. If you don't understand what we are saying tell us and we will try and re-phrase it so you can understand.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Bob Wegman on April 08, 2015, 09:08:12 PM: Pete, You are such a good person to the Guzzi community. Good on you.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Bill Owens on April 08, 2015, 10:24:24 PM: What Bob said :+1
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: krglorioso on April 08, 2015, 11:34:54 PM: What Bob and Bill said. Pete, you sure ARE a good person!

Ralph
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Vasco DG on April 09, 2015, 12:35:23 AM: Nah, I'm just a person.

Thing is I'd guess that finding information on obscure, short model run, twelve year old motorbikes in Poland would have to be a chore! Who wouldn't help if they could?

Pete
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 09, 2015, 05:54:29 AM: Ok..

So regardless to recall action I will open my engine in my garage :)
Question to thoose who ever did that.
Is there any way how to disasmbly camshaft oil pump and complete timing system with engine mounted in frame?
I mean . I wanted to skip operation " engine out of frame " if its possible.
But considering how it look in exploded views ...I think this can be impossible. :bow

Pete you are my masta :)
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Vasco DG on April 09, 2015, 06:14:01 AM: No need to remove the motor. The whole operation can be done with the engine in the frame.

Pulling the front engine mounting bolt will allow you to remove the timing chest cover. To get to that point it's simply a matter of methodically removing parts until you get to where you want to be.

Do you have a workbench or will you be working on the floor?

Pete
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 09, 2015, 06:20:20 AM: Most probabley on the flor:)

So I suppose I need to prepare some support like i.e. wooden brick or sth.
Hmm
As soon as I will be back home I will start :)
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Vasco DG on April 09, 2015, 06:29:32 AM: Can you build some sort of bench to elevate the whole bike 700mm or so? Bricks and planks is fine. It will just make your task a lot more comfortable. I have no idea how old you are but believe me, if you are over fifty it will make the difference between the job just being a challenging learning experience and torture!

Pete
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on April 09, 2015, 10:18:37 AM: The *first* thing I would do is pull the oil pan and check for ground up lifter/cam stuck to the magnet or filter screen. If you find that, and there is a good chance you will.. you may as well decide to pull the engine out of the frame before going any farther.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: mphcycles on April 09, 2015, 11:36:30 AM: Quote from: Vasco DG on April 07, 2015, 05:01:17 PM
Can you post up a picture of the valves and rocker gear with the tappet cover off the engine. This is the first step in determining if the recall is needed or has been carried out properly.

Unfortunately it may be that your bike was supposed to have had the recall performed and it has been noted as having been done but the work may not of been carried out. It could also be that it wasn't carried out correctly.

Getting any further action is likely to be very difficult simply because the machine is now over twelve years old. If the work is recorded as having been performed then I'm afraid it may well be that you have no recourse but to try and find the parts to fix it yourself.

A failure may also be down to the oil pump being damaged by a previous failure.

Pete
Not to be too spammish, but MPH has a few of those cam repair kits in stock. You know how Todd was, always looking out for Guzzi riders, so he ratholed a few kits knowing that they would be discontinued long before all the bikes that needed them got fixed
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Vasco DG on April 09, 2015, 11:57:31 AM: Quote from: mphcycles on April 09, 2015, 11:36:30 AM
Not to be too spammish, but MPH has a few of those cam repair kits in stock. You know how Todd was, always looking out for Guzzi riders, so he ratholed a few kits knowing that they would be discontinued long before all the bikes that needed them got fixed

Excellent! Thanks Mike!

Pete
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: davedel44 on April 09, 2015, 02:03:52 PM: :bow MPH Mike, Todd and good Uncle Pete.
Dave
Galveston
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 09, 2015, 02:07:42 PM: Life is life...

Today I couldn't go any step forward.. Had to repair my wifes car..murphy's law or sth..
Anyway car is ok. I collect all adivices, and maybe Pete is right, a ramp will be good solution to prepare comfortable conditions.. The challenge looks quite nasty but i like them.

BTW . What is the price for complete urgrade kit?
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: mphcycles on April 09, 2015, 02:40:01 PM: $125 plus shipping
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 09, 2015, 03:00:40 PM: Mike. Could you please specify what is included in this set?

Could you please check as well history of my bike based on vin number. As I mentioned before in Poland there is no serious dealer in my country so far. They said the there never has been a problem with hydro calis. Since you own or work in mphcycles this shouldn't be a big issue for you.
Thx Adam
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Wayne Orwig on April 09, 2015, 03:10:26 PM: As provided to me.

(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/worwig/publicshare/Hydro%20Part%20Numbers.jpg) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/worwig/media/publicshare/Hydro%20Part%20Numbers.jpg.html)
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: rodekyll on April 09, 2015, 03:15:58 PM: Adamus -- I posted the kit list here a year or so ago. Do a search for hydro recall and you will probably find it. To summarize, the kit contains the parts ~~AND THE TOOLS~~ only needed to do the recall procedure. I can't name all the tools. The parts include the valve spring components, adjusters, tappets, lifters, camshaft, and a few other bits. It does not include an oil pump, which from your reported symptoms you probably need. It also does not include main or rod bearings, and depending on the amount of chunk in the oil, you may need them too.

Pete's suggestion of replacing the engine is not a bad one. As you can see, the damage done by the hydro failure can be much more extensive than the recall kit covers. In a perfect world the problem is fixed before it happens. If you get to it in time the kit is as much as you need and the fix can be done with the engine in place. Your world is not perfect -- the damage has started. The probability of as completely trashed engine is high. there is a less than even chance that the recall kit alone with fix the problem.

I would not approach this as a routine hydro recall. I'd look at it as a possibly totaled engine, and I'd want to be sure I wasn't starting down a garden path of increasing expenses before I spent any money on the kit. I'd pull the sump. timing cover, oil pump, and rod caps looking for metal chunks embedded in the bearings and damaged crank journals. I'd expect to find a lot of additional parts needed. I'd make a shopping list based on what I find and decide if it makes sense to do the entire repair or replace the engine.

So pull those things, look them over, take some pics and post them here. Pete and the guys will tell you if it's salvagable or not. I would really love to be wrong . . .

edited to reflect that the current MPH kit does not contain the tools. It is not the full recall kit. It is the parts kit. Sorry if that created any false expectations, and sorry I tried to 'splain someone else's inventory.

BTW -- I just got off the phone with MPH orderinng a kit. They're going like hotcakes ;) . If you plan to get busy on a hydro, get yours now!
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 09, 2015, 03:40:53 PM: Rodekyll. Pete already convinced me to stop any new stupid tries with shims etc. I will try to follow line which you showed me and already went thru several times (some of you i hope) That is the reason why I signed in to this forum...Honestly speaking I never saw such high profesional people sharing their experience .And fo far I got the felling that all of you guys know hwat are you talking about.
Regarding this recall kit... I was confused by the price ( 125$ ) that is why I asked for complete list. I mean only the price for part no 2 is 120US dollar. So I think I missunderstood somethink. Or?
So no worries im on the way to see how "perfect world" kicks my a..

Cheers Adam
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Vasco DG on April 09, 2015, 05:04:28 PM: Adamus, David, (Rodekyll.) has extensive experience with the Hydro engine, more than me I suspect and has seen more extensive damage than I have as the one's I've fixed have usually been caught early so listen to him. He knows what he's talking about.

As others are saying the first step is to drop the sump and open the timing chest. If there is a large amount of metallic crud in the sump and the oil pump shows any damage then there is a good chance, (Made more likely by the use of an oil with a higher base viscosity.) that the filter may of gone into bypass mode when the engine is cold and particulate crap will of been circulated through the rest of the engine. If this is the case then to clean it thoroughly you'll need to strip the engine to the last nut and bolt and even then you may find that the crankcase itself is damaged, (The camshaft runs in the case and the oil pump rotors seal against the case.). If that is the case then the entire engine is scrap or at least not economical to repair.

At that point sourcing a second hand engine really makes far more sense.

Pete
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: guzzisteve on April 09, 2015, 05:39:56 PM: Quote from: Wayne Orwig on April 09, 2015, 03:10:26 PM
As provided to me.

(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/worwig/publicshare/Hydro%20Part%20Numbers.jpg) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/worwig/media/publicshare/Hydro%20Part%20Numbers.jpg.html)

Campaign is still on as far as I know. Bad bikes are still out there. Pick a shop that knows their sh#t.
That looks like my printing.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: guzzisteve on April 09, 2015, 05:49:53 PM: Be prepared to measure deck height to valve stem end. The tool kit for this procedure makes it simple to shim your new springs.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Guzzistajohn on April 09, 2015, 06:07:23 PM: Way to go Pete & David ;-T you guys are handy to have around.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: mphcycles on April 09, 2015, 06:13:55 PM: Quote from: Adamus on April 09, 2015, 03:00:40 PM
Mike. Could you please specify what is included in this set?

Could you please check as well history of my bike based on vin number. As I mentioned before in Poland there is no serious dealer in my country so far. They said the there never has been a problem with hydro calis. Since you own or work in mphcycles this shouldn't be a big issue for you.
Thx Adam
I can check your vin tomorrow, the us system is in a software upgrade and we are locked out . But regardless of what the vin show, if your parts are the old style as the pics show, it didnt get done. happened more than it should have....
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Vasco DG on April 10, 2015, 05:05:48 AM: Thanks Mike, I was going to ask today when I phoned the importer about a 'Local' Griso but the poor wench I was talking to was obviously 'Doing it tough' so I refrained. As it was I got the answer I needed very quickly but I'm sure she would of broken down and either wept or torn me an extra arsehole if I'd tried to edge in a question about a twelve year old Munter from Poland! :D

Pete
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Vasco DG on April 10, 2015, 12:41:10 PM: Just out of curiosity I punched the number posted above (887349) into our parts system and Lo and behold it is available and in stock. In Oz though the cost is $2,227.07 though!

Pete
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 10, 2015, 02:05:46 PM: Hi I found it also at Harper's

http://www.harpermoto.com/tappet-887349.html 1756$ (but there is only stated "Tappet")

and the other number.

http://www.harpermoto.com/cam-recall-kit-03049872.html 645$ (Cam shaft recall) -
If mike has them on stock for 125$ i'll take it and don't care about shipment price ;D

I found some engine here in Poland but it is from different machine - V11 Bilbao

http://allegro.pl/moto-guzzi-v11-sport-ballabio-2003-silnik-i5251761621.html
Any idea if it is possible to put it to my frame? Of course I know it is different power characteristic in compare to california but the price isn't so bad (1300$)
It is together with gearbox but without fuel system. (my is OK)
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Kent in Upstate NY on April 10, 2015, 02:44:21 PM: It is possible as several people here have done it.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Vasco DG on April 10, 2015, 04:44:29 PM: This is the same engine we used to resurrect the Cali in New Zealand. You'll need to swap the sump from your engine along with the clutch if you want to keep the heavy flywheel of the Cali. The advantage of going down this route is you could recoup some of the outlay by on-selling the six speed gearbox and other parts.

Pete
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 13, 2015, 01:09:39 PM: OK
Lets begin. Sump goes down..soon photos
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 13, 2015, 03:26:39 PM: So..bad news.many metalic shavings in botom of sump..many metal shavings close to timing chain...f...
photos later ...
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: rodekyll on April 13, 2015, 03:35:57 PM: We need a hat-over-heart smarm. :'(

The good news (if there is any) is that yours is the highest mile hydro I've heard of with the original cam and lifters still installed. Most would have been dead 30,000 km ago.

I'd go with Pete's recommendation to replace the engine entirely with a used runner. There will be very little if anything serviceable in yours, and even the bits that look good could well have hidden damage.

If it was me, I'd find another hydro -- a sorted one -- to replace it. ~;
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 13, 2015, 03:49:18 PM: RD - I like your sens of humor ..
So far i cannot disasembly big nut from crankshaft. I have no key for that...I will have to organize that for tomorrow.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: rodekyll on April 13, 2015, 04:08:46 PM: If you put a big, flat screwdriver thorugh the timing inspection hole in the bellhousing to lock the flywheel you can get that nut off (lefty-loosy) with little effort. If you are talking about the nut BEHIND the alternator and timing cover that holds the timing gear on, you can use the screwdriver and a cheap plumber's socket -- the kind used to remove recessed Fawcett bases -- of nearly the right size. These are long enough to slip over the crank snout and have a hole through the socket sidewall for another screwdriver to be used as a handle. You can also get an adjustable wrench on the back of the plumber's socket (or use a shallow socket and breaker bar or air wrench).
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Vasco DG on April 13, 2015, 04:28:03 PM: Afraid this would be the case. As RK says a new engine is the best bet.

Pete
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 13, 2015, 04:28:43 PM: Need to prepare special socket..It is about this nut which is holdiing rack on crankshaft (32mm)
I will buy it tommorrow. For today I have enough...
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: wavedog on April 13, 2015, 04:30:42 PM: Adamus- check your email and pm's. Sent some photos to you.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 13, 2015, 05:13:46 PM: This is how I endup today:( (or tonight...it is midnight here in Poland now)
<a href="http://ifotos.pl/z/weswsqa/">[img width= height=]http://s2.ifotos.pl/img/DSCF4531J_weswsqa.jpg[/img][/url]
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 14, 2015, 04:33:19 AM: Inserting here image it is a challenge,, I tried yesterady several times with no succes..and notification " Internal Server Error"
So again another try,
I took neodym magnet on top of screewdriver and I put it into sump - I found this
(http://s2.ifotos.pl/mini/sumpmagen_wessxqe.jpg) (http://ifotos.pl/z/wessxqe/)

Below timing chain in crankcase
(http://s5.ifotos.pl/mini/DSCF4530J_wessxqr.jpg) (http://ifotos.pl/z/wessxqr/)

View from bottom - picture from sump view - you can see damage on cab lobe
(http://s2.ifotos.pl/mini/camjpg_wessnrx.jpg) (http://ifotos.pl/z/wessnrx/)

Nice ha:)?
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: rodekyll on April 14, 2015, 05:04:34 AM: She's dead, Jim. :'(

That's the classic damage, Adamus. Textbook pictures.

See if the oil pump sprocket wiggles and pull the rod caps to see if that shrapnel has gotten into the bearings. If it has, my guess would be that the mains and oil pump are also embedded with cam. If the chunks have worked their way up to the cam journals the crankcase is also destroyed since the cam rides directly in the case casting.

If the pump sprocket feels solid then the pump bearings have not been ground away. If there are no chunks in the rod bearings the oil filter may have caught the worst of it. Those would be encouraging signs. I'd still want to do a teardown on the bench to inspect everything, but I'd have more confidence that I wasn't just wasting time.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Vasco DG on April 14, 2015, 06:43:01 AM: It is, to use the vernacular, 'Donald Ducked'!

I'm sure that even in Polish translation the implication is obvious?

Don't bother digging further. Get a second hand engine.

Pete
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 14, 2015, 07:58:15 AM: Honestly speaking.
I will just strip complete engine and search for replacer. (I already got offer from Jacksonsville for complete bike)
But.. I got direct contact to Moto Guzzi Italia thru my colegues from company where I work (Atlas Copco Tools).
So I sent all data to him and he will forward it to guzzi and see what they will say. I just wnat to be sure that recall action was asigned and someone within Guzzi dealership has marked my VIN as already upgraded.
They will also try to check if engine was orginally in this frame or it was already replaced. (based on VIN and motor sn).
Almost forgot.. After remooving of timing cover I discoverd some "home made" marks for correct aligment of timing system. It means that someone already opened this engine before I did it..And it seems that wasn't any specialist - he did marks on oil pump wheel:) - which I think (I'm more than sure) is unnecessary.

cheers.

She's dead Jim - indeed:)
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on April 14, 2015, 11:10:31 AM: Quote
She's dead Jim - indeed:)

Funny, I was looking at your pictures and thought exactly that. Then I scrolled down, and RK said that. ;D
Unfortunately, this is what I feared all along.. Maybe your contact at Guzzi will be some help. Good luck!
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 14, 2015, 05:55:50 PM: Well .. Who wants to see body of dead lady :)

Cam shaft - cam lobes totally damaged
(http://s2.ifotos.pl/mini/camshaftE_weapewx.jpg) (http://ifotos.pl/z/weapewx/)

Cam bearing 1 - nothing happend - looks really god - I did not find any shavings..
(http://s5.ifotos.pl/mini/cambearin_weapewp.jpg) (http://ifotos.pl/z/weapewp/)

Cam bearing 2 - also without anything wrong
(http://s5.ifotos.pl/mini/cambearin_weapewh.jpg) (http://ifotos.pl/z/weapewh/)

tappet - :) the noisy ones... (inlet right)
(http://s2.ifotos.pl/mini/tappetbot_weapewn.jpg) (http://ifotos.pl/z/weapewn/)

comparizon - two tappets - where is the rest? - sump or everywhere :)
(http://s10.ifotos.pl/mini/tappetdif_weapewe.jpg) (http://ifotos.pl/z/weapewe/)

Oil pump is NOK. Gear teeths are damaged (something flowed between them - tappet: :-*).
Crankcase has also scratches on surface where gearwheel's are working.
But I have Idea how to repair oil pump section. I could prepare plate in shape of oil pump in thickness of 1mm. Oil pump gearwheel has to be machined (1mm) - to get it back into its previous position (When I put plate between pump and crankcase than oil pump gearwheel will moove to front.). So maybe it is not over yet;D
Camshaft bearings are Ok - nothomg vissible there..
I found metal chunks only in sump oil pump and in timing chain box. i wonder if it is possible to clean crankcase completly from this sh...
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: rodekyll on April 14, 2015, 06:15:54 PM: Got pics of the oil pump and rod bearings?

My opinion is that if the oil pump teeth and/or bearings failed, then the oil pump should be replaced -- not repaired, along with its sprocket. I have spare pump sprockets if you can't find anything in your part of the planet. I do not have spare oil pumps.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Vasco DG on April 14, 2015, 06:28:23 PM: I've got several oil pumps but I thought the later Cali's had one with wider teeth? I think mine are all off earlier bikes.

How deep are the gouges in the front of the case? It might be possible to mill the front of the case flat again. If it only takes a few thou the chain would cope with that easily enough.

Pete
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: rodekyll on April 14, 2015, 06:44:43 PM: The pump issue is complicated. IIRC, there are 13mm and 15mm blade widths. The 15mm (wider type) that I have seen are the ones with no bearings. I think they were installed on some later high-performance engines and had a bad history of failure due to no darn bearings. I'm being deliberately vague for fear of passing on bad information. Please tell me I'm wrong on account of I'd like the bigger pump in my rig and with the understanding I've just typed, I can't justify installing one.

Pics would really help . . .
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Vasco DG on April 14, 2015, 07:50:37 PM: The early hi-cams had a bearingless pump and it had a higher capacity I believe because of the increased bearing surface. I really can't remember about the earlier pumps. The 700/750 loops also used bearingless pumps I believe? Charlie?

Pete
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on April 14, 2015, 08:43:00 PM: Quote from: rodekyll on April 14, 2015, 06:44:43 PM
The pump issue is complicated. IIRC, there are 13mm and 15mm blade widths. The 15mm (wider type) that I have seen are the ones with no bearings. I think they were installed on some later high-performance engines and had a bad history of failure due to no darn bearings. I'm being deliberately vague for fear of passing on bad information. Please tell me I'm wrong on account of I'd like the bigger pump in my rig and with the understanding I've just typed, I can't justify installing one.

Pics would really help . . .

Definitely not the case
Don't know year of change but 96 Cali engine had the wider pump and gears with needle roller bearings so very likely hydro has same or could have.
Only issue I found with late pump was the need to machine (alloy) gear to get it further on, guess the original sprocket was either slightly different offset or chain ran a little offline. Sprocket part number would tell

Adamus

As RK says, have a look at shells, if they survived, you'll get away with recall kit, chain, maybe sprockets and pump fixed, fingers crossed.
Hope Guzzi give you kit but if not , buying for $125 from MPH sounds reasonable
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: rodekyll on April 14, 2015, 08:51:01 PM: Quote from: jacksonracingcomau on April 14, 2015, 08:43:00 PM
Definitely not the case
Don't know year of change but 96 Cali engine had the wider pump and gears with needle roller bearings so very likely hydro has same or could have.
Only issue I found with late pump was the need to machine (alloy) gear to get it further on, guess the original sprocket was either slightly different offset or chain ran a little offline. Sprocket part number would tell

Adamus

As RK says, have a look at shells, if they survived, you'll get away with recall kit, chain, maybe sprockets and pump fixed, fingers crossed.
Hope Guzzi give you kit but if not , buying for $125 from MPH sounds reasonable

Thanks for the clarification. :) Could the offset be due to the phonic wheel being added behind the cam sprocket?
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on April 14, 2015, 10:43:14 PM: Quote from: rodekyll on April 14, 2015, 08:51:01 PM
Thanks for the clarification. :) Could the offset be due to the phonic wheel being added behind the cam sprocket?

Could be, was another issue fitting gears from early one, had to grind case to get gear on cam, first time I did it up, it locked tight, original sprocket/phonic hoodiki must have been dished. I have the sprockets somewhere, maybe some early ones too, if I find them I'll take pics to see offsets.
Fitting later pump doable for you anyway, just check clearances.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 14, 2015, 11:43:19 PM: Hi guys

I forgot to take pictures of oil pump yesterday. After dismantling my pump has been immediately taken by my friend to specialist which can help in this topic. I only remember there were two neddle bearings. Later I will take pictures and put them here.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Dick on April 15, 2015, 04:23:43 AM: FWIW,the difference in pumps is the gear width. 14mm vs 16mm. The pump housing is the same cept for it being machined deeper to accommodate the wider gears, which BTW leaves a very thin wall in the housing where the sprocket driven gear resides. The pump sprockets have the same part# cept for a larger font 30 added. The 30 gear has a 1mm deeper offset. Good luck.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Vasco DG on April 15, 2015, 04:49:14 AM: Thanks Dick and Martin.

Pete
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on April 15, 2015, 10:23:59 AM: Adamus, it sounds like as good an outcome as you could hope for. Since the cam bearings aren't damaged, the case is salvageable. Just the same, I would completely strip the engine and carefully clean all oil passages..
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Graham UK on April 17, 2015, 03:45:27 PM: I hesitate to join this discussion because you all have so much more expertise than I do. However, as someone who loved owning a hydro, which I bought at 27,000 miles and sold on at 42,000 miles, without any cam/tappet problems, may I suggest that if your hydro is repairable you ensure the oil pump is good as new, and that you use the correct grade of oil, to avoid the whole thing going wrong again within a few thousand miles. This is because the usual problems may well be related to oil pressure. I would also say that my single plate clutch never gave me any problems and was still fine when I sold the bike, so don't panic about that if it's working OK.
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on April 18, 2015, 09:12:10 AM: Graham..
It is not related to oil grade...camshaft taken out from the engine is totally damaged!it is not only worn out...it is deformed and after closer inspection I found even crack on the top of cam lobe. Anyway guzzi guys from factory know the issue. They try to keep it as a secret.,I have some unofficial information which I can not share now....Monday I will have some news from italy what to do next...if they dont care than I order recall kit +new oil pump (my is not repairable)- from mphcycles I hope. In my machine I have double plate clutch..so at least this :). Al I can say now is that it depends on your drive style..sooner or later my engine without recall kit will explode:)
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: Adamus on October 28, 2015, 05:46:52 PM: Hi Everyone!!!

Guess who is back in bussines:) .
Thanks to wildguzzi.com I managed to get in contact with MPH Mike from Houston.
Accidentally my friend was two weeks ago in Houston .so he could pick up complee upgrade kit for me..
I'm happy like a baby now touching new parts form my little darling, which is since one year with broken heart in garage.

It is time to start disasemlby procedure to last screw.

I will update you with pictures from this job.
Special regards to: VascoDG, Rodekyll, MPH_Mike, Pete, and all others who helped me to get to this point.

Cheers .Adam
Title: Re: California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed
Post by: balvenie on October 28, 2015, 07:41:31 PM: Glad you are happy mate.
Have a good time fixing your bike :thumb: