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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gliderjohn on April 13, 2015, 02:46:08 PM
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Thinking of upgrading to a full sized PU from my current 97 Nissan mini PU 2wd. Seems like 2wd PUs are by far the minority anymore. Am I missing something here? For years I have got along fine with 2wd. I grew up a farm kid and back in the 60s I don't recall any farm PUs being 4wd. With good mud tires one could get through all but the worst of snow or mud.
I am going to be retiring at the end of next month so it is not like I have to get out in bad weather. I would think a 2wd would be cheaper to operate overall. Anyone here give me a good reason not to stay with 2wd?
GliderJohn
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I have two 2wd trucks both F150's. Snow tires in winter and no problems. Cheaper to buy, maintain and insure.
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I have own just 3 pick-ups in the last 30 years. All 2WD. I bought a new F150 in the summer of 2013...2WD. A friend of mine just bought a used 2012, 4WD. When we were comparing trucks I told him mine was 2WD and he commented that he didn't know they still made 2WD trucks any more. :BEER: In the 30 years Ive owned pick-up trucks I can remember only 2 times I've gotten myself in a situation where 4WD would have come in handy. Of those 2 times I had to be pulled out of my predicament only once.....by a friend with a 4WD. Of course he had a Chevy and I had a Ford. You can imagine the friendly banter that ensued. ~;
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Quote from oldbike54:
Hard to beat that generation of 2WD Nissan PU , last of the real mini trucks .
I will say they are reliable and tough for a small PU. However, noisy, rough riding, underpowered and poor gas milage (around 20mpg with a 4cyl & 5sp manual) Those are the main reason I am considering replacing it.
GliderJohn
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2wd versus 4wd = my thing is bigger than your thing. Unless you actually have a NEED to use the 4wd.
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I used to drive 2wd pickups. Chevrolet C10 Silverados. Back when GM 4x4 was solid front axle and ride quality sucked. I also had an S10 and a Mazda. So, four 2wd pickups.
Sure, I got by. Chained up when it snowed. Got pulled out when I got stuck in wet pastures, etc.
No more. I will never again own a 2wd pickup that I have to depend on 24/7/365.
I live in the mountains. I drive off pavement with loads and trailers. I use the 4wd regularly and am thankful to have it.
If you live in the flatlands and rarely venture off pavement, sure you can get by without 4x4. But why?
4x4 pickups are so common, and the ride quality is so improved from 25 years ago, that there is no reason to do without.
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Thinking of upgrading to a full sized PU from my current 97 Nissan mini PU 2wd. Seems like 2wd PUs are by far the minority anymore. Am I missing something here? For years I have got along fine with 2wd. I grew up a farm kid and back in the 60s I don't recall any farm PUs being 4wd. With good mud tires one could get through all but the worst of snow or mud.
I am going to be retiring at the end of next month so it is not like I have to get out in bad weather. I would think a 2wd would be cheaper to operate overall. Anyone here give me a good reason not to stay with 2wd?
GliderJohn
Nobody ever used to be able to afford 4WD pickups, even when they were the same premium over a 2WD that they are today. When roads were bad, they'd make sure they had weight in the back, proper tires, and go.
Today, it's a lot like giant 1800cc motorcycles. They won't do a thing that a 900cc bike won't do, but the marketing people, and the buyers that the marketeers sold them to, will tell you that you aren't really a fully-equipped, fully-male MAN unless you have a huge bike, or unless you have a 4WD pickup.
If there's a job that someone has to do that HAS to have a 4WD, fine. But I know the guys buying trucks and SUVs, and I hear and I see, and most of them would get along just fine with a cheaper, less expensive to run and fix 2WD, except that they HAVE TO HAVE a 4WD.
You already know what you need. Nothing wrong with a nice 2WD pickup. That's what my next one is going to be.
Lannis (Edit: Could this post be a bigger contrast than Rocker's above? :D Great minds don't always think alike .... !)
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All depends on what it's needed for - as folks have said. I have a rusty 2002 F150 short bed standard cab that is lifted a bit and was great letting me see over the 5+ foot snowbanks this winter. It lets me back a load of rocks or dirt down the hill and not get stuck where a 2wd shouldn't go. Mine was cheap and I'll get at least another season out of it. For the hilly, very snowy and muddy terrain here, 4wd is the way to go. If I lived in Kansas, I'd be tempted to go for 2wd if it's as flat as I remember. Best, Nic
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Quote from oldbike54;
and most new 4WD trucks aren't gonna ride much better or get better mileage .
I recently got to drive a 2013 F-150 4wd quad cab and let me assure you that it rode much, much smoother than my Nisson. Much, much more quite too with almost the same milage (19 over about 70 miles mostly at highway speeds) if you could believe the computer.
GuzziJohn
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(Edit: Could this post be a bigger contrast than Rocker's above? :D Great minds don't always think alike .... !)
1977 C10 Silverado
1983 C10 Silverado
1984 Mazda B2000
1992 Chevrolet S10
So, I've done my time with 2wd pickups over the past 35 years.
Currently drive a 2002 Suburban 1500 4x4. I use the 4x4 all the time in situations that would have a 2wd pickup's rear wheels spinning. Something as simple as going into the (flat) pasture to retrieve my horse trailer on a rainy day can induce rear wheel spin and tear up the ground. If I start off in 4x4, then no wheel spin and no drama, and no ruts. Steep gravel roads pulling a trailer? 2wd pickup can spin the rears, but in the same situation, I just touch the 4x4 button before it gets steep, and no loss of traction, and no gravel thrown all over the place. It's also real nice to not have to chain up when it snows in the winter. I used to chain up my 2wd pickups, and they'd go real good in the snow. But they didn't go as well in the snow as my 4x4 Suburban does at the touch of a button!
I could go on and on, but the anti-4x4 comments in this thread are clearly made by people who are either not driving 2wd pickups, or they are not driving them in situations where their limitations are clear.
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Are they REAL 2 an4 wheel drive? The Cherokee label says 4 wheel but the rear has a differential which only powers one rear. My 150 will spin the right rear on wet pavement with no drive to the left rear, like the Cherokee.
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In some places (Wisconsin, Northern MI, etc) 2wd trucks are useless in severe winter. Limited slip and a boat load of weight helps, but not always and it snows too much to risk it. I have had a 4x4 for a long time and would never go back. I had a 4x2 mini pickup in college, northern WI/MI...it was a challenge to drive and you had to plan HOW you got somewhere. That was with 400lbs of corn in the back with Firestone SNOW tires (not all-season). That sucked.
It depends on what you are using it for. Don't buy it if you don't need it. Situation is everything. Dropping the truck into 4x4 auto when the weather turns to shit makes things MUCH easier, but I live in Michigan. I can also go just about anywhere without much fear of getting stuck. I wouldn't need it if I was going back and forth to home depot in Alabama...
2WD trucks are cheaper, but 4x4 does hold it's value even if they cost more initially. A 10yo 4x4 is going to be worth more than a 10yo 4x2 of similar condition (and are in demand in snow states). I haven't had any issues with my 4x4 that I wouldn't have had with a 4x2...save for one transaxle shift motor over the (3) trucks I have had. That was $600 with new u-joints at the same time. Other than that, no additional service costs. That's about 300,000 miles over 15 years? Something like that.
I rely on my truck too much to NOT have it. That's me. Your situation may vary.
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Are they REAL 2 an4 wheel drive? The Cherokee label says 4 wheel but the rear has a differential which only powers one rear. My 150 will spin the right rear on wet pavement with no drive to the left rear, like the Cherokee.
I always buy my 4x4 with a limited slip rear. That option you can select in any 1/2 ton truck if you look.
Why anyone would buy a 4x2 without a limited slip boggles the mind. It turns your 4x1 into at least a 4x2 when the shit gets real.
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I could go on and on, but the anti-4x4 comments in this thread are clearly made by people who are either not driving 2wd pickups, or they are not driving them in situations where their limitations are clear.
What I've observed is that there are SOME people who own a 4WD pickup because a 2WD will not do the job they need done. You're obviously one of them.
And there are OTHER people (see motorcycle analogy) who drive a 4WD because (A) the 4WDs are Big and Tall and people won't notice that they are compensating for something they're afraid they don't have and (B) A Real Man drahves a gawdam Four Wheel Drive 'cause he ain't a MAN if he don't.
Surely you've seen that in some people? I know I have. They'll even say it, and then will never drive off road or in low-traction conditions at all.
I also know people here who work their trucks very hard, and are sometimes in mud or snow, and haul real loads in their pickups, and they're 2WD, because they can't afford to spend money on something that they don't have to have, and they're not paying for image .... ?
At any rate, the purpose of the responses is to give gliderjohn input on 2 vs 4 and why. I think he's got that, regardless of who's "right" or who can't understand why someone wouldn't do X etc .... ;-T
Lannis
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One thing that I loved about having it on my 99 Ford PSD Dually 4x4.
It had shift on the fly 4x4 hubs.
When I was going up steep fire roads with a 11.5 ft camper (5000 lb camper), doing maybe 15 mph or so.
The transmission was an automatic.
It had a air cooled transmission cooler.
The new ones are liquid cooled.
Because I was driving so slow, there wasn't much airflow across the transmission cooler.
Transmission would start going over 200 deg F as in 1st/2nd gears the power was not transferred directly thru the transmission like a manual transmission.
I'd shift it into 4-low and she'd drop at least 20 deg F on the transmission temps in about 5 minutes.
Really helped the reliability of the transmission when you keep those temps down.
Another time that really helped: camper on, pulling a boat out of the water on a steep slimy boat launch.
Slip it in 4-low and she'd walk right out of it.
So my point is: I personally wouldn't have a pick up without 4x4.
There's a lot to be said about having it if you can afford it.
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4 wheel drive gets you stuck further in the woods ;D
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I currently own a 2wd truck and front wheel drive car. 4wd is over rated imo. That said, my next truck will probably be 4wd only because I don't want to snowblow forever. If we are staying here for the duration plowing snow will become a priority. The truck I have now might just go another 10 years. A lot can change in that amount of time. We live where our lawn is covered in November and the white stuff is still covering our lawn as I type this. Maybe by the end of the week... Yesterday was my first ride of this year, 177 miles. Felt really good to get out!
Stay safe, John
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Let me narrow the parameters a bit. I am leaning toward a full size extended ( not a quad just the basic extended cab) cab 1/2 ton with the basic V-8. Interested in a full size this time for the additional room, quietness, and ride. It appears that milage is reasonable. It will mostly be used for occasional brush hauling, taking trash can to the road, hauling the ATV, mower or motorcycles as needed either in back or on a small single axel trailer, chauffeuring the dog, hense the extended cab for his accommodation plus cargo room. The wife, dog and I like to do back road drives just for exploring fun. I will probably try to find a 3-6 year old truck with around or under 100K miles as I will probably average under 10K miles a year. I am leaning toward Ford but not stuck on it.
We are also going to go from two to one car which would be my wife's primary transportation. We are thinking of going with a late model used Subaru for that so we could have that for bad road backup. Plus my farm neighbors always like to show off their truck's pulling one out of the ditch abilities. ;D
GliderJohn
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If you decide to want to put a snow plow on the front, and you want to go diesel:
Look carefully at the Gross Allowable Axle Rating of that front axle.
When I had my PSD, that adds a lot of weight over the front axle vs the gas engine.
Enough that it was not recommended to put a snow plow on the front of it with the diesel.
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I know you said you were wanting a "full sized" pickup truck...
and that you thought 2WD was about all you had ever needed before.
But there is another alternative:
Consider the Honda Ridgeline pickup. It is a 3/4 size truck (V6) with a true 2WD/4WD stability-controlled (by computer) drive system.
Note that the 2WD/4WD on the Honda is not an "All Wheel Drive" (viscous) system such as found on Subaru and other AWD vehicles.
The Honda Ridgeline pickup is robust with a 5.000 lb tow rating which allows it to pull many boat and RV trailer GVWRs.
Here is a link to a technical discussion (by an Honda engineer) and drawings of the full time 2WD/4WD drive system used in the Honda Ridgeline PU and PILOT SUV vehicles:
http://www.dansher.com/bikepix/Guzzi/VTM-4_fyi.pdf (http://www.dansher.com/bikepix/Guzzi/VTM-4_fyi.pdf)
I have put 65,000 miles on a 2WD/4WD Honda PILOT SUV and have towed an RV trailer many miles with no problems. When not towing, I get 20 mpg in city and 25 mpg on the highway @ 70 mph.
I do not work for Honda and do not sell them. I just really like the PILOT and I think the Ridgeline would be worth a close look by you.
'Geezer
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If you live where you need 4 wheel drive, there is no acceptable alternative. We live 15 miles out of town and have an AWD Juke, and a Landrover Discovery. My last truck was a Dodge 3/4t diesel 4 wheel drive.
A few years ago we inherited a Toyota Tacoma 2 wheel drive, which couldn't get me home even with only a couple inches of snow. (steep hills). I sold it real fast to get the Juke.
I never bothered with 4 wheel drive when I lived in Seattle, or Norfolk. But I wouldn't get anything else here in Spokane. By the way, every other car here is a Subaru, and there aren't even that many lesbians ;D
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Here's a thought.
Do people NEED 4wd or AWD, or do they just WANT IT?
Do people NEED a 100 hp 8V Guzzi instead of a smallblock, or do they just want it?
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I've spent my life in the northeast, and my first two cars and two trucks were RWD... My third truck was 4wd.
My fourth truck started life as 2wd, but within a year I converted it to 4wd.
Ever since then, with the exception of a couple of turbo/supercharged "hot hatchbacks" which were FWD EVERY CAR AND TRUCK I'VE BOUGHT (6 more cars and trucks) have been 4wd or AWD.
WHY?
Because in all situations they provide me better traction and ability to use the vehicle as I see fit, including but not limited to:
* Snow -whether we're talking getting to or from the ski mountain or to and from the hospital for a shift for Jenn. We KNOW it will be easier with it.
* Rain - yup, less chance of hydroplaning because you hit a puddle at speed, or losing the rear in a curve.
* off-road whether it's the ability to get to our Bud's 4x4 access only dune house in Corolla OBX, or to remote campsites, or even a slippery boat ramp.
* performance - in the case of the Juke or our Subarus, the added ability to reduce the possibility of under or oversteer in a curve and just plain enjoy getting a little frisky with it.
And fwiw, there's not that much of a mpg penalty anymore.
The new mid-size Colorado/Canyon isn't that small a truck in crew cab configuration. It manages a respectable 17/24 in 4wd and just a bit more 18/26 as a 2wd, so there is very little downside.
IF I were to buy a RWD again, it damnwell better have a limited slip rear diff... But I can't see buying anything that isn't capable of driving four wheels.
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My 4x4 F250 does not have "4x4" in big letters on the side, so I guess I'm not compensating for anything - just getting the jobs done. Not being able to even climb slight grassy inclines when wet in 2WD defines the need for 4WD - unless one spends the truck's lifetime on pavement.
Define YOUR mission - get what YOU need.
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Why anyone would buy a 4x2 without a limited slip boggles the mind.
I agree but mine was inherited from dad. The Wrangler I had was the same until I had it rebuilt with a LS. The open diff makes tight turns easier on tires though.
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I plow. That'll tell you.
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I have had two 4WD Fords followed by two 2WD Fords and now a 2WD Toyota. 4WD cost more up front, more to operate and more expensive to fix. 2WD with Limited Slip and snows has gotten me through all of our winters without getting stuck. The Toyota has been pretty trouble free except for brakes but thats mostly because it sits most of the summer. One thing I don't like about it is the electronic limited slip. Its slow to react compared with the old mechanical systems.
Pete
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Here's a thought.
Do people NEED 4wd or AWD, or do they just WANT IT?
Do people NEED a 100 hp 8V Guzzi instead of a smallblock, or do they just want it?
I don't think that you'd ever get a consensus on the meaning of "need". "Want" will be pretty easy!
I do without things every day that many people believe that they will die very soon if they don't have. They'd probably say they "need" them, and in that sense maybe they do.
The closest you'll get is that people "Need" certain things to maintain what they consider their "quality of life". And what does THAT mean .... ?
And so on .....
Lannis
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Thanks to all the replies. All input appreciated. I am also an opportunist. If the right deal came along I might consider a 4x4. Didn't think about the limited slip rear end until that was brought up. I will look for that for sure if I go 2wd.
GliderJohn
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Pete, more expensive to fix? Is that a fact or assumption? I wouldn't assume it true.
The question is now complicated these days by fact that many models are only available in 2wd with certain (base) powertrains and configurations. But when comparing the same trim levels in RWD vs 4WD there only a handful of repairs which would differ greatly.
Lannis, just a musing on the silliness of this crowd questioning the wants of others.
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Lannis, just a musing on the silliness of this crowd questioning the wants of others.
Yeah, but waddya do when someone says (like I do sometimes) ...
"I'm thinking I might want one of these. What does WG think?"
In the midst of the musings, followed by insistence, conflict, posturings, and finally open warfare, you can often find stuff where you say "Glad I asked; THAT would have been a bad idea!"
Lannis
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Not saying the discussion doesn't bring decent points to light, like:
* a limited slip diff is good and even more important on 2wd
* many obviously can get by with 2wd if conditions are right, or they are smart, or they use winter tires, or, see limited slip
* initial costs of 4wd are higher, but so is resale.
* maintenance and operating costs may be higher of 4wd, but amount will vary.
Etc.
But none of that represents any objective superiority of one position no?
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Not saying the discussion doesn't bring decent points to light, like:
* a limited slip diff is good and even more important on 2wd
* many obviously can get by with 2wd if conditions are right, or they are smart, or they use winter tires, or, see limited slip
* initial costs of 4wd are higher, but so is resale.
* maintenance and operating costs may be higher of 4wd, but amount will vary.
Etc.
But none of that represents any objective superiority of one position no?
Good summary, and no position has any objective superiority, not on this subject! How far can you go wrong anyway?
Lannis
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I have had many 4 wheel drives, as well as real 4 wheel drives, a 72 International Scout with locking Warn hubs, as well as 2 wheel drive tacomas. I bought all of my 4X4's to do real rock climbing and exploring. They were loud, did not get great mileage and were absolutely fantastic for what I wanted them for. My 2 wheel drive Toyotas went anywhere I would need to go with decent tires. And much better ride and all the rest ;-T
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Until we moved here 2WD was fine for road travel. As long as it has a limited slip and you don't expect to go everywhere when it snows.
Our driveway is about 10% grade, gravel/mud. When it rains hard or snows nothing goes up it unless it has 4WD/AWD.
For light duty off road a 2WD with limited slip can work, but, it is no where near as capable as a 4WD.
So, pick based on your use. If it is city stuff I'd stay with 2WD and limited slip.
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I had a Toyo Tacoma 2WD because i thought "I didn't need no 4WD". I can remember numerous times over the winter when I was close to tears over the complete lack of traction. Granted, this is New England. I also found at resale time I got hammered because everyone wants 4WD up here. Since then, I've had a Lexus RX330 and a Toyota Rav4. To me, there are enough times when the added traction makes a difference.
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8' = a truck
>8' = a car
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Note limited slip is not a locking differential. Not many pickups even have the option for locking. Limited slip works in the rear axle, when installed and new, and degrades over time. At some point, 100,000 miles or so in my experience, the limited slip wears out and becomes a regular differential.
Some brands of pickups are definitely moving away from limited slip and towards using the traction control computer to handle slippage by applying brake only to the spinnning wheel. This has the advantage of not wearing out, and also functioning on the front in 4wd applications.
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Omigosh, how have I survived for 60 years with 2WD?
Usually the reason LSDs stop working is the gear lube neds changing. The clutches need the additives to work properly. Over time the additives give up the ghost.
And if the traction computer applies the brakes to the spinning wheel on an open differential all it does is stop the spinning. It wont transfer power to the other wheel.
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Omigosh, how have I survived for 60 years with 2WD?
Usually the reason LSDs stop working is the gear lube neds changing. The clutches need the additives to work properly. Over time the additives give up the ghost.
And if the traction computer applies the brakes to the spinning wheel on an open differential all it does is stop the spinning. It wont transfer power to the other wheel.
On an open differential, applying the brake on the spinning wheel does apply all power to the other drive wheel. It how a differential functions...That's why tractors have separate wheel brakes. But a locker or limited slip should split power to both wheels....On very greasy surfaces the limited slip differential in my Jeep needs a bit of help by slightly applying the emergency brake ... Also mentioned in vehicle owners manuals..
I have driven for years on limited traction surfaces like snow,mud or off road. All wheel drive is so superior to one axle drive in adverse conditions that it's no comparison..
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And if the traction computer applies the brakes to the spinning wheel on an open differential all it does is stop the spinning. It wont transfer power to the other wheel.
Not true.
It's how Jeep is managing traction on a lot of their vehicles now - including our WK2 (Grand Cherokee) which though it has a lockable transfer case has open diffs front and back. I've felt the effect of the BLD in deep OBX beach/dune sand (and can hear the system working as well) and it does VERY well. I've pulled other stuck vehicles off dunes with it. Never had a problem myself.
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At some point, 100,000 miles or so in my experience, the limited slip wears out and becomes a regular differential.
Just a point of reference, the LSD in my 2002 Suburban still functions at 255,000 miles.
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Just a point of reference, the LSD in my 2002 Suburban still functions at 255,000 miles.
The GM Gov-lock will last if not abused by aggressive driving.It disconnects at higher speeds to lessen fishtailing on slippery roads. Eaton type are the traditional "Posi" with multi plate clutches preloading the spider gears. The Auburn style like in my Jeep uses a cone clutch that in theory is not rebuildable. Obviously a LSD will last longer with less differential action like going around tight corners ,driving in mud or hole shots.
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Either dad or I have owned a '71 F250 2wd, a '92 or so Nissan 2wd, a Dodge D100 I6, three on the tree 2wd, a Chevy 1500 SB 2wd, a '90 F150 I6 2wd, a '93 F150 I6 2wd, a '90 Bronco 4wd (Michigan winters), an '07 Cherokee AWD (great in snow, very unreliable Trans shift module electronics) and now I have an '07 F150 5.4l 2wd. We've also had a genyouwine X-Army Willys jeep, obviously 4wd, with which we explored Panamanian jungles on hunting trips and also towed our 21' Orlando Clipper a few miles each way to the salt water ramp. Good thing Canal Zone speed limits were 35mph.
When I bought the '07 F150 two years ago I considered for a moment going 4x4 as they're as common as zits in high school anymore, but looking at what I really do with a truck it didn't make sense. With my 2wd and common sense I manage muddy off-road two track for hunting and camping, and when it snows for a few days a year that it does here I throw a few hundred pounds of debris under the tonneau cover and motor on. Just couldn't justify "needing" the 4wd.
If you're buying a full sized truck, you're not going to worry about the slight hit in gas mileage 4wd will cost you. Funniest posts on truck forums I'm on are the guys complaining about 20mpg or less after doing the lift, lo-ratio diffs, 36" swampers, HID/LED conversions and cool stereo.
Also, if you're looking at a crew cab you'll only get a 5' or shorter bed so why not go for a Suburban or Expedition. Unless you plan on carrying something filthy and stinky in that very small bed, made even smaller by installing the requisite toolbox, a fully enclosed vehicle might be preferred.
If you need 4x4 you know it. If you want it, you know that too. Buy what makes you happy.
Tobit
(still looking for a "I use Ford Festivas as wheel chocks" bumper sticker) Hi Lannis!
;D
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Clever! Wind powered turn signals!
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/wind%20truck_zps7knqo5xy.jpg)
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Tobit
(still looking for a "I use Ford Festivas as wheel chocks" bumper sticker) Hi Lannis!
;D
That's all right; you rain-forest destroying, petroleum-hogging, climate-ruining First World materialists just go ahead and burn burn burn that petrol ... just don't come running to ME when you end up having to get past this guy to try to find the next 100 gallons of fuel for those monsters, while I buzz by running on the fumes you wasted .... ;)
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i130/LannisSelz/Humungous_zps6e02e58b.jpg) (http://s71.photobucket.com/user/LannisSelz/media/Humungous_zps6e02e58b.jpg.html)
Lannis
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Are you going to get one of those light-weight sport jobs, Lannis?
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/flintstones-car-734_zpsbtxdcjyd.jpg)
A Two Footer?
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Interesting. Lucas made shoes too?
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Also, if you're looking at a crew cab you'll only get a 5' or shorter bed so why not go for a Suburban or Expedition. Unless you plan on carrying something filthy and stinky in that very small bed, made even smaller by installing the requisite toolbox, a fully enclosed vehicle might be preferred.
There are plenty of things you can move in the 5-6' beds behind today's crew cab trucks that you can't fit inside an SUV from motorbikes to appliances or furniture, not to mention dirty landscape supplies are easier to manage in a truck bed.
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We can all agree there is no "I" in pckups but there is in pIckup ???
I'm partial to my 1WD Guzzi's :o
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After the last couple of winters, I'll keep my 4x4
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One alternate to limited slip differentials is to use the parking brake moderately if you need power to both rear wheels. Note that all manufactures now use overhead cams in their V8 design except for GM which still uses the obsolete (by today's standards) pushrod engines in their PU.
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I have a Duramax Allison diesel 2500HD 2WD X Cab. I use it pull my 5th wheel travel trailer toy hauler.
A couple of years ago I was dry camping my rig at the Coke Lot at Indy Moto Speedway for the 500 mile race. We had rain Sunday night, on Monday morning the grass so slick that I couldn't get the truck to move. I called a tow truck, he had 2WD and got stuck yoo. He was puled out by a Ford F150 4WD and my rig was pulled out by a Chevy 1500 4WD.
I've only needed 4WD once. But I did need it.
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One alternate to limited slip differentials is to use the parking brake moderately if you need power to both rear wheels. Note that all manufactures now use overhead cams in their V8 design except for GM which still uses the obsolete (by today's standards) pushrod engines in their PU.
Why is it obsolete? Because it gets great gas mileage and tows great?
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Subaru also uses the computer controlled braking on their all wheel drive systems. My wife can vouch that her Forester XT is an awesome all wheel drive.
Back to trucks, he is looking supercab I thought, which if he is partial to Fords will give him a 6' 6" bed, plenty big enough. Plus several years ago Ford installed traction control on their F150 trucks. There is one at work, in 4 wheel drive low range you can see it switch from left to right finding traction. Works the same on 2 wheel drive just only on one axle of course. With the introduction of the 3.7L V6 for a standard engine you have over 300 hp and can get in the low to mid 20's in the country or highway. Some other things to consider if you do not need four wheel drive is replacement tires or much higher. The newer 4 wheel drives such as my son in laws 2014 F150 come with 18" or bigger rims. He didn't pay the tires any attention and I found them over inflated. This caused him to have to purchase over $800.00 worth of tires at just over 20k miles. Last set I bought for a two wheel drive 2000 F150 were around $400.00, in 2005. Sure four wheel drive is nice. I have a Brat with four wheel drive and love it, but the next F150 I buy will be two wheel drive just like the last one. It had limited slip though and I never really needed that. The new Fords have optional locker rear ends, no limited slip available anymore. Just food for thought.
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Just picked up a F150 (2014). 2WD, with the locking Diff. option. A couple 4WD fans have told me that with the locking diff. it's ALMOST as good as 4WD.
I've owned 4WD vehicles and was able to make use of them from time to time. I've also used 2WD cars in the dreaded winter in Duluth where the hills really challenge drivers. I've found that tires and front rear weight distribution are a bigger influence than 2WD or 4WD. Given perfect weight distribution and new snow tires, 4WD is superior; but only in the extreme where you are better off staying indoors. Unless you have to be out (like a Dr.) and about.
I'm looking at upgrading my tires from the Traction Rating A, not even All Season tires. :p
I considered 4WD, but I got a good deal on a left over 2014, and if push comes to shove, we have the Outback with AWD. :)
For most folks, 4WD is over rated. But as Rocker demonstrated, there are times when it is just too useful and it makes sense to buy 4WD in those cases. But if you don't need it, it does not make sense to be "pressured" to get 4WD.
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One alternate to limited slip differentials is to use the parking brake moderately if you need power to both rear wheels. Note that all manufactures now use overhead cams in their V8 design except for GM which still uses the obsolete (by today's standards) pushrod engines in their PU.
You do realize that you are on a Moto Guzzi forum ?
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Just picked up a F150 (2014). 2WD, with the locking Diff. option. A couple 4WD fans have told me that with the locking diff. it's ALMOST as good as 4WD.
Your 4 Wheel drive fans are mistaken....In ice, snow , mud or off road there's no comparison..
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Do you even need a pickup? I live in rural Minnesota and have a 4 wheel drive Ranger that hasn't been on the road for a couple years, get around fine in a couple VW Golf TDIs. If the roads ain't plowed it's too dangerous to drive anyway and I sit it out. Hauling stuff? Just hook up the trailer. Think about it for a minute- $30k plus for a 4WD pickup that gets 15 MPG vs. $20k for a decent small car that gets 30MPG and does the same job? With the $10k saved you can buy a new Guzzi and the $$$ saved on fuel will fuel the Guzzi!
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The Hemi engine in the Ram truck is a pushrod engine.
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The Hemi engine in the Ram truck is a pushrod engine.
Advanced auto engines is far more than the number of valves camshafts or superchargers. If light weight, compactness is an issue nothing is better than the LS Chevy pushrod engine. Doing contract electric work in a junkyard there were rows of engines from late model vehicles. The Chevy LS looks tiny compared to bulky OHC and DOHC or the Mopar new Hemi of similar power.The standard 420 something HP Corvette or Camaro engine is about 400 pounds... And the LS common truck block can handle in excess of 1000 HP...
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But if you want HP per pound you need overhead cams, which give more accurate valve timing too. That's why even the big bore diesels built by Cummins, Daimler, etc. have gone to overhead cams, and they only turn 2100 RPMs at most. And if you really need a pickup, get a 21st century one with aluminum body and OHC turboed engines like the new F150.
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Do you even need a pickup? I live in rural Minnesota and have a 4 wheel drive Ranger that hasn't been on the road for a couple years, get around fine in a couple VW Golf TDIs. If the roads ain't plowed it's too dangerous to drive anyway and I sit it out. Hauling stuff? Just hook up the trailer. Think about it for a minute- $30k plus for a 4WD pickup that gets 15 MPG vs. $20k for a decent small car that gets 30MPG and does the same job? With the $10k saved you can buy a new Guzzi and the $$$ saved on fuel will fuel the Guzzi!
That price for a pickup is accurate, I reckon, if you have to have something late model. I've got a '93 Chevy 3/4 ton 2 wh. drive that I've had for about 18 yrs. Put a new mil. surplus diesel engine in it, GM rebuilt trans., and just had it painted. Many other new parts, but still way cheaper than a late model. Hope to make it last until they plant me. But I don't mind working on it, as it's usually not got that many tight spots. Good solid truck now and just put an intercooler on the diesel. And a word of advice if anyone were to tackle doing a suspension rebuild: I replaced every suspension component in the truck. And bought into the hype of polyurethane bushings. Don't use them. The ride is too harsh, and the last 4 bushings (poly) I replaced were between the cab and frame. It honestly felt like I was going down the road on the rims after those were in. Took them out and put in standard GM rubber bushings, but it's still too harsh a ride. I put up with it, as I'm not about to tackle that job again. Oh, and don't believe all you read about Jasper rebuilt transmissions, but that's another story.
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Do you mean to say Jasper xmissions aren't crapola? ;D
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I'm keeping my '98 Ranger 4WD, might even insure and drive it next winter. But by a new one? Let's see, $30k just to take it home, then 8000 gallons of gas over it's 120,000 mile/10 year life as a frontline vehicle= another $20k even at today's low prices. Compare that to a car for $20k and half the fuel cost and you've got a $20k savings over 10 years... Enough to buy a new bike and fuel it!
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Do you mean to say Jasper xmissions aren't crapola? ;D
No. In my opinion, they're not much. I put one in a few years ago, and it lasted all of 40k miles before the torque converter clutch was gone. The GM Goodwrench trans., so far, is solid. I bought it for the warranty, 3 yr./50k. I've got to haul my son's El Camino from NC to NM in July and like the idea of being able to take the truck to any GM dealer if this trans. pulls a "Jasper" on me.
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But if you want HP per pound you need overhead cams, which give more accurate valve timing too. That's why even the big bore diesels built by Cummins, Daimler, etc. have gone to overhead cams, and they only turn 2100 RPMs at most. And if you really need a pickup, get a 21st century one with aluminum body and OHC turboed engines like the new F150.
The 505 HP Chevy LS 427 ci V-8 weighs 450 pounds full loaded with all injection and electronic parts and flywheel ready to bolt in. They are readily available from GM for 12 grand brand new with stand alone computer for use in older vehicles. They will bolt up to any Chevy car or truck bell housing from 55- present...A GM automatic trans can also be used.
The Ford Eco boost is a fine engine but it doesn't really make power power per pound in stock tune and is bulkier than the Chevy...And the drive line match up is more limited...
The all aluminum Ford F150 4x4 weighs a whopping 80 pounds less than the same Chevy....
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While we're musing - here's a topic -
Modern Direct Injection Motors - slightly more fuel efficient, but time bombs with the heads/intake valves and carbon deposits?
Discuss!
:pop
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Gardening just off a river bottom with a 20-30 degree grade is challenging. Gotta have a 4X4 for all sorts of things. I have hauled lots of manure and mulch as well as pull out bushes and small stumps. Love that 4X4 in Low. I have never had this problem pulling bushes and small stumps. :PICS!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVLkAENacOo :pop
And notice where the idiot anchored to the buggy! He was destined for the scrap heap. Laws of physics duh I guess he thought he was using a helicopter and not a dune buggy when attaching the anchor..
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While we're musing - here's a topic -
Modern Direct Injection Motors - slightly more fuel efficient, but time bombs with the heads/intake valves and carbon deposits?
Discuss!
:pop
This is a big concern for me. But the latest scuttlebutt; go ahead and do an intake treatment (e.g. Seafood), letting the intake airstream suck up the Seafoam (or your poison of choice) but DO NOT touch the throttle. Let this happen at idle. Otherwise you damage the turbo's (F150 Ecoboost motors).
But I think they are still at the early stages of noodling out how to handle the problem. I wonder if they got too clever by half and will go back to injectors upstream from the valves.
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Next time my rust bucket needs work, it's being put out to pasture, to be replaced by a nice utility trailer for behind our AWD Ford 500 & Freestyle. Will miss the manual transmission and ability to pick up a load of stuff without hooking/unhooking but will give it a try.
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While we're musing - here's a topic -
Modern Direct Injection Motors - slightly more fuel efficient, but time bombs with the heads/intake valves and carbon deposits?
Discuss!
:pop
My newest vehicle is 99 so I don't have that problem...But what about Diesels? They have had direct injection for 110 years...???
Pour that Seafoam into the intake to dissolve deposits... The deposits are composed of what? And where does the "what" go when the Seafoam washes it away? Right into the rings.......
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I wonder if they got too clever by half and will go back to injectors upstream from the valves.
I believe Toyota is already doing that...
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My newest vehicle is 99 so I don't have that problem...But what about Diesels? They have had direct injection for 110 years...???
Pour that Seafoam into the intake to dissolve deposits... The deposits are composed of what? And where does the "what" go when the Seafoam washes it away? Right into the rings.......
Carbon deposits on the intake valves, largely unburnt hydrocarbons that settle on the intake valves when open for the intake air charge.
Not sure why diesels don't seem to have it, compression and efficiency differences?
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Carbon deposits on the intake valves, largely unburnt hydrocarbons that settle on the intake valves when open for the intake air charge.
Not sure why diesels don't seem to have it, compression and efficiency differences?
BMW cars used to have or still do have deposit on the valve issues...The mechanics used a sort of soft media blasting to remove the deposits...Intake deposits are also from oil getting past the intake guides, a bit of dirt getting past the air filter.Not directed at Kev......Suppose you took off a head, removed the valves, cleaned off the deposits in Seafoam ... it would leave a mess in the container you had the valves in. Yes ? Then you assemble the head, keeping it all very clean...Before you start the engine just pour in the mess from the container right down the throttle body....Good for the engine? right? That's what's done when Seafoam is poured down the intake to clean the intake and valves.....
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FYI BMW, Audi, and VW have been having intake deposit issues on direct injection motors for some time. I believe at least one factory recommends removing the intake manifold and blasting the valves with crushed walnut shells or equivalent media.
Deposits come from the sources mentioned, and PCV oil mist as well.
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Been pouring seafoam down the throat of my 87 Brat for the last 15 of 17 years I have owned it. Done once a year. Not direct injection but it sure burned some crap out the first 2 or 3 times I did it. At 2700 miles on the last oil change and still to the full line on the dipstick with 240k miles.
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Deposits on the intake valves are due to fuel in the intake. Heat of valve causes some fuel to 'stick'.
Direct injection bypasses that as there is no fuel in the intake runner. Not sure on gas engines but on diesels the fuel is not injected until the compression cycle is almost complete. Intake does not open until most of the burned air mix is almost evacuated. The valve overlap occurs to allow the incoming mixture to assist in scavenging the old mix out of the chamber.
The problem with direct injection is that you have to use high pressure injectors that can withstand full combustion temps and press. Port fuel injectors are low pressure.
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Been pouring seafoam down the throat of my 87 Brat for the last 15 of 17 years I have owned it. Done once a year. Not direct injection but it sure burned some crap out the first 2 or 3 times I did it. At 2700 miles on the last oil change and still to the full line on the dipstick with 240k miles.
And what would happen if you didn't pour the Seafoam in there on a regular basis?
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I had to run premium or either cut the timing way back to prevent spark knock. Timing has been set back to spec and run 87 with no spark knock. According to the Subaru forum the older EA Subaru engines would get carbon build up in the combustion chamber and top of the pistons raising compression. Many recommended seafoam to clear it out. Worked for me. First several times I did it a blue hued smoke would come out the exhaust for 7-10 miles. Last dozen years has been just a white hued smoke that last maybe 1-2 miles. I still do it annually to prevent carbon build up. See no reason to stop now. I probably could go every other year or so I guess.
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Bought my 2000 F150 with 2wd and a trak-lok differential dealer had to special order it. They couldn't understand my wanting 2wd with trak-lok instead of 4wd. Beginning every winter it's 5 40lbs. bags of sand fixtured near the tailgate. This combo has never got stuck snow, sand or mud.
Seems the majority of 4wd trucks and SUVs on the street today have never been off road and won't be, ever. If you have a legitimate need for 4wd for job site or farming, towing in slippery stuff, whatever, that's one thing. Soccer mom in her 6000lbs. Chevy Suburban is quite another thing.
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Hey, it's your retirement truck! Get the nicest one you can.
I have an F-150 v6 eco-boost with the 4dr cab and 4wd. It also has electronic locking differential, off road pkg, chrome pkg... all kinds of stuff. It does not, however have the fully auto 4wd that some Lariats and Platinums have.
Sometimes I even get permission to drive it! I drive 20 miles to work, where most vehicles are something "my" truck, in an Impreza.
We have property out west around 8000' elev and it comes in handy out there winter and summer. In south La. (on the weekend mind you) I have to go into fields, down 2 track, and slippery boat launches (where I've never spun more than maybe a half a rev). Having lived down here for most of my life, I've been stuck more than often enough in my younger days, and spun my tires most of the way up enough boat ramps to appreciate the 4wd.
Footnote: 2012 Ford ELD (locking diff) can only be engaged while stopped (or maybe under 3 mph), and kicks out at 20mph. It is the cats though and sometimes you just don't know which button to push!
I haven't tried the Subaru in the snow or rough gravel roads at elevation yet, but our last 4wd car worked well out there.
DB