Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ailgev on May 03, 2015, 04:17:46 AM
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I Was Looking At The Kaffemaschine Guzzis And Noticed They Were Fitted With An Oil Cooler With The Lines Running To The Front Of The Sump Which Is The Earlier Sump, Not The Broad Sump.
Anyone Know Whats Involved In Getting This Done? Is There Lots Of Mod Work Needed In The Sump?
Paul.
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What bike? And why do you think it needs a cooler?
Pete
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Dear Ailgev,
Out here in the UAE, I rode the small block V7, 168 kms in temperatures about 42 Degrees Celcius.
The rider was a trite uncomfortable, the little bike just shrugged it off.
I'd be interested to know, what bike and why it needs an oil cooler.
Take care and stay well.
BB
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Hi Guys
Its A Sport 1100 Carb.
I Know It Doesnt Neccesarily Need It But Was Interested To Know What Is Involved?
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A lot of screwing around is the answer. If you look at the oiling circuit it is clear where you would have to plumb the cooler in, (Don't even think of doing it on the pick-up side!) this is a bit of an embuggerance to say the least.
Also, as you say, it is completely un-necessary, why do you want to do it?
Pete
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Hi Guys
Its A Sport 1100 Carb.
I Know It Doesnt Neccesarily Need It But Was Interested To Know What Is Involved?
I took the oil cooler off the Aero engine I converted back to a motorcycle. If you wade through the Aero engine rescue thread, there is plenty of information on how to plumb the cooler.
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What bike? And why do you think it needs a cooler?
Pete
The one spending its life parked at the curb (kerb for you Pete) of the "Kaffe"-hause.
Todd.
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I Was Looking At The Kaffemaschine Guzzis And Noticed They Were Fitted With An Oil Cooler With The Lines Running To The Front Of The Sump Which Is The Earlier Sump, Not The Broad Sump.
Anyone Know Whats Involved In Getting This Done? Is There Lots Of Mod Work Needed In The Sump?
Paul.
Check this out:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/USED-SPECIAL-PERFORMANCE-KIT-MOTO-GUZZI-OIL-COOLER-KIT-/261841099588?hash=item3cf6f21b44&vxp=mtr
Easiest thing for you would be to fit a broad sump with cooler provision.
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Ok.
Thanks For The Responses.
Much Appreciated.
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I Was Looking At The Kaffemaschine Guzzis And Noticed They Were Fitted With An Oil Cooler With The Lines Running To The Front Of The Sump Which Is The Earlier Sump, Not The Broad Sump.
Its A Sport 1100 Carb.
A carb Sport does not have a broad sump. Only the Centauro, 1100 Sport injection, Daytona RS, V11 Sport and LeMans.
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Easiest thing for you would be to fit a broad sump with cooler provision.
It's not quite that simple. I looked into swapping pieces from my Centauro, just to see what would be involved (prior to going on an Evilbay quest). The way the side stand attaches is different on the wide sump so you would have to swap the whole setup. That leads to interference with the "fins" on the bottom of the timing chest cover, they stick down too far. At that point I decided to give up, but I can't see any vital function for the fins so the could probably be machined off. My carb Sport likes to run it's oil around 110 to 120 C, and 140 or more in any kind of slow traffic so I feel there could be some benefit to adding a cooler. I also found that running Amsoil 20W50 results in much happier oil pressure during a traffic jam (compared to Mobil 1 15W50). (Apologies for getting perilously close to an oil thread!)
Howard
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Hi Rocker
Yep. Thats What I Said. They Dont Have A Wide Sump. I Most Probably Didnt Explain It Clearly.
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It's not quite that simple. I looked into swapping pieces from my Centauro, just to see what would be involved (prior to going on an Evilbay quest). The way the side stand attaches is different on the wide sump so you would have to swap the whole setup. That leads to interference with the "fins" on the bottom of the timing chest cover, they stick down too far. At that point I decided to give up, but I can't see any vital function for the fins so the could probably be machined off. My carb Sport likes to run it's oil around 110 to 120 C, and 140 or more in any kind of slow traffic so I feel there could be some benefit to adding a cooler. I also found that running Amsoil 20W50 results in much happier oil pressure during a traffic jam (compared to Mobil 1 15W50). (Apologies for getting perilously close to an oil thread!)
Howard
I didn't say it was simple or easy. Just easiest. :)
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I thought I'd dig this topic out of the archive and continue thoughts about oil coolers - or not - on big block Guzzis.
Here's the plan; I'm planning an SP III based super tourer, using an EV1100 powertrain and fuel injection. I'm planning to enclose the bodywork around the back of the cylinders in a Ducati paso style, with air being ducted through the battery area and out at the rear. The aim is to build a smooth long distance tourer which doesn't cook the rider in 20+ degree summer temperatures.
Obviously, cooling may not be as good as with open cylinders so i'm thinking about fitting a sump and oil cooler from something like a V11 or Norge / Griso.
Questions are as follows:
1) received wisdom is that an oil cooler isn't needed - is this the case and does it also apply to the Norge / griso era bikes.
2) Would a V11 or Norge / griso setup fit onto a square barrel Tonti block?
3) Do any of the oil cooler fitted bikes use a thermostat to regulate the cooler?
regards all
Stewart Ellinson
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Only thing I'm going to say is that I ran an 1100 Tonti Cali motor (EFI Jackal) for nearly 40k miles through all sorts of weather. In WINTER (temps near 0C/32F) it would regularly form emulsified oil coatings in the upper valve train areas (under the valve covers) even with commutes in the 30+ minute range.
I say this only to warn of the possibility of over-cooling if you run a cooler in colder weather.
That's all I got for you... good luck with the project and have fun.
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The cooler needs to have thermostatic control to mitigate this Kev.That wouldn't eliminate the issue though...
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First thing I'd do if considering a cooler, is purchase a dip stick gauge to find out the sump temps.
If the oil temp is below 100C (212F) I wouldn't bother, providing you're running a decent quality oil, preferably synthetic, it's fine and all a cooler might do is overcool the engine.
Below 100C the oil pressure should be fine too, it's when things go above 110C things can go south.
When this happens you'll most likely notice it, idle becomes irregular, frequent stalling and loss of power.
If you do think it's running hot, then the easist fix is a deep sump (although not cheap), I've got a Vee sump on one of my bikes with the oil filter facing forward. I think it was originally made by Motospezial and last I looked Guzziladen was selling them. The other type of deep sump I've heard of is by GG
I think Paul who post's as FastGuzzi (I think) had a tuned Daytona, he went to the Vee Sump then installed a cooler using an oil filter adaptor, but that's on a tuned engine that's known for running hot anyway.
It's a guess but I think you'd be doing more harm than good, installing a cooler especially without a stat, as already stated
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I seem to remember that Beetle fitted one via an external thermo valve to his 1400 conversion.
Maybe a search of Grisoghetto.com will bear fruit
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So if older generation big block Guzzi’s do not need a cooler (and I accept this wisdom to be true), why do the Griso’s have that dirty great electric toaster look-a-like thing hanging off the side ?
(https://i.ibb.co/B3BCJjg/IMG-4443.png) (https://ibb.co/B3BCJjg)
Is that a cooler ?
I reckon if a Griso had the rotten cooler taken off and pitched in the bin and the pipes re done symmetrically, they wouldn’t need a bag over their heads to be seen in polite company… :popcorn:
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cos they run hotter!
(but only when the ambient temperature is above 20°c, otherwise they run too cool and get horrible mileage. Unless you mount and plumb in a thermostat somewhere....)
not mandello's greatest design moment.
but they do look fantastic and go like s--t off a shovel
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cos they run hotter!
Hotter than what Laz ?
Because they are 4 VPC or something else ?
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I understood that they run hotter than the old big blocks, could be the 4VPC, could be a leaner burn too?
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Hotter than what Laz ?
Because they are 4 VPC or something else ?
It's all tuning.
Leaner stock mapping of later models to make stricter standards means hotter combustion temps.
My open-loop only Tonti Jackal ran much cooler (measured with IR gun at points on the head), then my closed-loop CARC Breva.
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Pulling an old memory index file here, and no information of the oil cooler compatibility of the older Tonti's with the 1100 and 1200 4 V motors, or the 8V motors, but the 1100 and 1200 4V motors have an oil cooler, be it the Griso, 1200 Sport, Norge etc. If I recall, they DO have a thermostat built into the sump area.
The 8V 1200 motors do not have a thermostat and were prone to the before mentioned goop and mayo in the valve covers if not run hard or long enough in cooler weather. Many block the cooler off in cooler weather. My 8V Norge (2014) had the oil cooler mounted low in the chin of the fairing. It also had a cooling fan designed to come on if the temps got too hot. I had the bike for 3 years rode it all over in all weather including blistering hot summer and commutes. The ONLY time it ever came on in those 3 years and 12K miles or so was when stuck in super hot stop and go traffic on a state highway closed for an accident. I had expected it to come on regularly, but it didn't. At one point, I thought it was FUBAR, but tested it and confirmed that all was working, but was rarely triggered.
Guzzi obviously added the oil cooler to the fuel injected CARC big blocks, but they seem almost overkill, and are not overly relied on to keep temps low. I never understood why the 8V's do not have a thermostat as the 4Vs did.
If I were considering it, I would look into the possible compatibility of the 1100 Griso or older Norge/Breva motors.
Two further rambling thoughts.
1. Fuel can and will cool a motor. Properly jetted Carbureted motors will generally run cooler than fuel injected due to a richer fuel mixture. Bib block carbureted motors by this reasoning will likely not need additional oil cooling unless raced, run super hard in hot weather and low speed conditions.
2. Small blocks even with the ridiculously small oil capacity 1.7-1.8 liters do not use a cooler. This is true regardless of being FI or Carbed.
BTW, the side mounted 'toaster' on the Griso is a wonderful thing and makes the unique exhaust possible. It's a glorious work of art, and one of Guzzi's best bikes ever. :cool:
(https://i.ibb.co/5hQN3g8/IMG-20200614-141239755.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5hQN3g8)
(https://i.ibb.co/vjGhJHy/IMG-20200614-141307135.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vjGhJHy)
(https://i.ibb.co/GR1Y0fD/IMG-20200614-141405230.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GR1Y0fD)
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BTW, the side mounted 'toaster' on the Griso is a wonderful thing and makes the unique exhaust possible. It's a glorious work of art, and one of Guzzi's best bikes ever. :cool:
Well yes…
The Griso does have a certain attractive charm from the point of view of it’s supporters.
I dare say though, if you’d just completed a 20,000 km trip in 7 weeks on one, you may have your affection tested somewhat.
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I just kinda skimmed over this thread, so forgiveness if already mentioned.
The 1200 8V CARC engines have oil coolers from the factory because, my understanding, the exhaust side of the head is oil cooled.
Also my understanding, there are two oil pumps. A lube pump and a cooling pump. Crafty Italians.
They also run 10W60 full synthetic to keep the oil from coking up the oil passages around the exhaust valve pockets.
Yes, in cool damp conditions where the engine doesn't come up to and stay at operating temps the formation of mayo can happen.
An aftermarket thermostat can be plumbed into the cooling circuit and has been done be a few folks. I may yet do it on my GRiSO.
And, back in the mist of time I ran my 750 Ambassador across the Mojave into and through Arizona in August with no cooler and no overheating issues.
And more, the 850 police bike I picked up had an oil cooler plumbed into the oil feed to the heads.
I don't know why? Cool factor maybe, who knows. Well, I removed it.
I'm not a mechanical or any type of engineer but would think monitoring oil temps would be a good first step to deciding on an oil cooler.
If temps are getting and staying excessively high then proceed. A thermostat would also be on my list to prevent over cooling and aid warm up.
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I ran an oil temp gauge on several big blocks for a long time. It took an average of thirty miles for the oil to come up to operating temp and stabilize. After that it would change according to engine load . Of course in hot weather it would come up to temp sooner but generally it took about thirty miles. I quit running gauges because I found I looked at them enough that it was distracting me from paying attention to trying not to crash.
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Just one thing thats not been mentioned (that I've seen)
A cooler will effectively do nothing in standing/slow moving traffic, anectodally I've found that speeds of 40+mph are required for the cooler to have any real effect.
To cool the engine at lower speeds electric fans would need to also be installed
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Do the v11 models have a thermostat for the oil coolers or not
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Broadsumps all have a stat AFAIK, that includes V11 (also Sporti and Daytona RS, possibly more)
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Well yes…
The Griso does have a certain attractive charm from the point of view of it’s supporters.
I dare say though, if you’d just completed a 20,000 km trip in 7 weeks on one, you may have your affection tested somewhat.
True enough H... However much the same could be said for any naked standard without proper wind protection. There are dozens of people who do long distance touring on there Griso but with a much larger wind screen. They likely have also added handlebar risers or lowered pegs but that's pretty common across the board.
Early on, I did several trips on it with a tail bag for overnights and found the bike fantastic with the exception of wind protection. I added a Norge and ultimately ended on a 1,200 sport for the long distance riding with proper luggage, wind protection etc, and kept the G for day trip or overnight thug bike (shave kit in tank bag). If push came to shove Id have no problem remounting the tail bag and having a go for multi-day or long distance trips.
It gets the least saddle time of all my bikes, but it is a wonder. Someday it will move on but not today.
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Excuse me for being a dumb bastard Old Jock but what the hell is AFAIK. Cheers
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Excuse me for being a dumb bastard Old Jock but what the hell is AFAIK. Cheers
As Far As I Know
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True enough H... However much the same could be said for any naked standard without proper wind protection. There are dozens of people who do long distance touring on there Griso but with a much larger wind screen. They likely have also added handlebar risers or lowered pegs but that's pretty common across the board.
Early on, I did several trips on it with a tail bag for overnights and found the bike fantastic with the exception of wind protection. I added a Norge and ultimately ended on a 1,200 sport for the long distance riding with proper luggage, wind protection etc, and kept the G for day trip or overnight thug bike (shave kit in tank bag). If push came to shove Id have no problem remounting the tail bag and having a go for multi-day or long distance trips.
It gets the least saddle time of all my bikes, but it is a wonder. Someday it will move on but not today.
Totally agree with everything there Bulldog…
I sometimes enjoy a ride BECAUSE the bike is a bit uncomfortable, it leaves impressions (so to speak), that linger after the ride is over, that remind you of the experience.
I think being too insulated from the senses and sensations, diminishes the experience somewhat.
You might as well go in a Toyota Prius, with a beige cardigan and white linen scarf….
I took my CT110 Honda 18,000 km around Australia for that very reason.
It was the “right” bike, because it was the WRONG bike, every emotion is magnified…(positive and negative), but it puts you in closer touch with the experience.
You cannot dominate your surrounds by a twist of the wrist, you have to give over to the current and be carried along.