Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mach1mustang351 on May 04, 2015, 01:07:28 AM
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Hey everyone. I had a rough day in the shop today. I was trying to put together the front triples and I was pressing the bearings together and as it turns out, my spacer I was using up top , bottomed out and tor up my steering stem. I guess my question is, does anyone have a spare? or is there a swap that can be done that will allow me to use my current parts (fork legs etc) and get past this problem.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/IMG_0119_zpstgrs3uar.jpg) (http://s37.photobucket.com/user/mach1mustang351/media/IMG_0119_zpstgrs3uar.jpg.html)
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Remove the yoke and heat it until spit sizzles on it, then press out the stem. Take stem to machinist and get them to turn you up another one. Press it into yoke after heating yoke. Reassemble with greater care.
Pete
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Remove the yoke and heat it until spit sizzles on it, then press out the stem. Take stem to machinist and get them to turn you up another one. Press it into yoke after heating yoke. Reassemble with greater care.
Pete
That was the most frustrating part of this issue, I wasn't rushing, or unsure about what I was doing. I got my other home chores done, and I was happy to go to the garage and do some work. Oh well, I guess we all have a bad day sometimes.
I had a boss tell me one time, "when everything you touch turns to gold, touch more stuff. If everything you touch turns to S*** stop." Today was the latter ::)
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Same as a G5? I'll give you a complete triple clamp set or just the lower yoke. it needs a little clean up and maybe new bearing but it's free for cost of shipping. send PM.
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Now that's why I love my guzzi...It's the guzzi people. Good on you foto.
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Just grind or file the first couple of threads away. a thread file would help, they are not expensive.
It's hard to tell in the picture if the triangular area is damage or just grease.
It looks as though the retaining nut has at least 3/4" of thread.
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Just grind or file the first couple of threads away. a thread file would help, they are not expensive.
It's hard to tell in the picture if the triangular area is damage or just grease.
It looks as though the retaining nut has at least 3/4" of thread.
:+1 Been there and done that-too many times. Not all that big a deal. :BEER:
Matt
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I'm with Pete.. I wouldn't use it. Let's see what we have here..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Lario/1-001_zpsttbkrrqt.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Lario/1-001_zpsttbkrrqt.jpg.html)
Yep, plenty of thread to preload the bearings..
But
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Lario/1-002_zpstcfz9hlh.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Lario/1-002_zpstcfz9hlh.jpg.html)
All the top threads do is hold on the top triple. :o Nope, not on my bike..
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I can bring you one next week.
Regards
Matt
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Just grind or file the first couple of threads away. a thread file would help, they are not expensive.
It's hard to tell in the picture if the triangular area is damage or just grease.
It looks as though the retaining nut has at least 3/4" of thread.
That wedge shaped part is completely gone. Not a matter of cleaning up a folded over thread unfortunately.
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Now that's why I love my guzzi...It's the guzzi people. Good on you foto.
I agree. I have a mustang, I guess thats obvious. In that world it's all about making profits and cash when parts are available. This is a community and that is awesome. I dont really have spares yet but I will pay it back when I am able.
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Ok then, replace it is the safe answer.
I'm not sure I would want to trust a local machinist with such a critical piece though.
Perhaps solid rather than a tube.
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I'm sending a used triple tree tomorrow morning.. the bearing might even be good with a little flush/clean up.
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I'm sending a used triple tree tomorrow morning.. the bearing might even be good with a little flush/clean up.
;-T
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I thought I'd share this comparison in case you run into the same issue and go nuts trying to figure it out. I just learned recently that there are a few different types of triples for the Tonti frame. These two side-by side are both from the later generation models (the left one is from my '81 G5, the right one is from another member but I'm not 100% sure which model it's off of). Note that they will both work, but the locking nuts are the key and they will need to match the type of lower used (long shaft/short threads or short shaft/long threads)
The photo on the left looks like yours, long shaft/short threads (the shaft is about 1/2" longer than the other one on the right), and that one requires the locking nut system shown in the front row on the next image. The shorter one (the one to the right, short shaft/long threads) requires the locking nut system shown in the back row (chrome deep cap).
(http://www.scooteropolis.com/images/guzzi/wg/TT_Compare.jpg)
(http://www.scooteropolis.com/images/guzzi/wg/TT_Threads.jpg)
(http://www.scooteropolis.com/images/guzzi/wg/TT_Upper_Locking_Nuts.jpg)
I hope that helps with the replacement when you are installing it and start to wonder. Hopefully you get lucky with fotoguzzi's one and all with match - and if anyone has one like the one on the left in good shape and is not needed by mach1mustang351, please PM me. I'm still on the hunt for a better one as my stoppers are about the break off.
Edit: I don't need one anymore. I'm making my old one work. Thanks!
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I sent the longer one and included the proper locking nuts.
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Groover, The tree I have looks like the one on the left. Send me the length and I will measure it.
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So the one I broke has the system with the nut system on the bottom. It sounds like I am getting hardware with mine so I will be good to go. Matteo, you can redirect the stem you have to Groover. As long as I get something that will work I am happy. I dont need or want to hoard a pile of these things ;-T
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Sounds good. I will try to stop by and check on your progress while I am in town.
Regards
Matt
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Groover, The tree I have looks like the one on the left. Send me the length and I will measure it.
Matteo, sent you a PM. The tube length is 8-1/2.
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So this doesn't happen again. How tight a fit should the top bearing be on the triple clamp?? All the ones I have replaced previously were just a slight press fit. This one was very tight coming apart and going back together
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It depends on the angle of the front end dangle + sideloaded weight for the angle that makes them bind. In a perfect world the post falls out of the bearing as you raise the front end. If the wheel is cocked wrong or you lift from the wrong angle it can load and bind. Sometimes its easy for me and sometimes I need to put a soft mallet to the post to coax it out. I can have either situation servicing the same bearing
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It depends on the angle of the front end dangle + sideloaded weight for the angle that makes them bind. In a perfect world the post falls out of the bearing as you raise the front end. If the wheel is cocked wrong or you lift from the wrong angle it can load and bind. Sometimes its easy for me and sometimes I need to put a soft mallet to the post to coax it out. I can have either situation servicing the same bearing
So i guess if we take the loaded, Side loaded factor out the top bearing should more or less just slide on the stem?? If I was test fitting o. The bench we should expect the top bearing to slide on by hand. Correct??
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Unless the post or bearing race is burred, yes. It's got enough clearance to put a smear of grease on the post, if that helps.
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I'll have to get outside with the calipers and check. This may be the root cause. There were no detectable burrs on the stem but the bearing was extremely tight going on. I wonder if the stem got damaged, over heated etc. Either way there was something not right.
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Do you actually need to have the steering stem fitted when you press the outer races in the steering head? It might not be exactly the same but I've just done this on my V7Sport rebuild here https://racingrhino.wordpress.com/2015/05/03/the-forks-are-on-3-may-2015/ (https://racingrhino.wordpress.com/2015/05/03/the-forks-are-on-3-may-2015/). Have I missed something?
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Do you actually need to have the steering stem fitted when you press the outer races in the steering head? It might not be exactly the same but I've just done this on my V7Sport rebuild here https://racingrhino.wordpress.com/2015/05/03/the-forks-are-on-3-may-2015/ (https://racingrhino.wordpress.com/2015/05/03/the-forks-are-on-3-may-2015/). Have I missed something?
On mine, I installed the races into the frame, then pressed the lower triple bearing onto the stem. Then tried to install. What I am saying is, on mine, I suspect damage was done to the stem previously as the bearing cone would only get to the bottom of the threads before it got tight and needed additional pressure to push any further. I should have stopped then, but it was very tight coming apart too so I didn't think much of it.
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I think those long shaft short thread types must have been made with tighter tollerances. See the photo I posted above and that shows how tight the bearing was upon removal (shiny). I had a really hard time getting mine out too and thought maybe I was just not doing something right or I just didn't eat my wheaties that day.
I made a thread on this just a few weeks ago.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=75788.new;topicseen#new
I'm probably going to sand down the shaft before putting the new bearing in. It was way too tight in my opinion, and now I see I'm not the only one with this issue.
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I think those long shaft short thread types must have been made with tighter tollerances. See the photo I posted above and that shows how tight the bearing was upon removal (shiny). I had a really hard time getting mine out too and though maybe I was just not doping something right or o just didn't eat my wheaties that day.
I made a thread on this just a few weeks ago.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=75788.new;topicseen#new
I'm probably going to sand down the shaft before putting the new bearing in. It was way too tight in my opinion, and now I see I'm not the only one with this issue.
Makes me feel better too. I will definitely measure mine up before it goes back together. I'll post some results tonight
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I made some measurements. I pulled out the 2 damaged cones I had and they each, by my calipers, measures .983. I measured a brand new bearing and also .983. I measured my steering stem and it measured between .983 right at the base of the threads, up to .986 at the thickest. It was pretty consistently .983/4 until about 2.25" from the top of the stem. Then it tapered down to .977 until the bottom where the lower bearing pressed on, then back up to the .983. Obviously before the next one goes together it will get measured and massaged down before it gets assembled.
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Looks like that .983/4 is the tough part. My lower bearing was actually easier to remove (once I figured out how, with help from others here on the forum) than the top one, which makes sense based on your measurement of .983. The top one was just super tight. Thanks for measuring stuff in detail like that.
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I got the Triple from fotoguzzi and it ended up working out. I measured it all up and it had the same measurements as mine. .983 on the top machined surface. I set about massaging it with some sand paper. I took my dremel and took the sharp edge off where the threads end and where the bearing surface ends. After about 20 min of massaging I got to this.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/IMG_0132_zpsrxflqydz.jpg) (http://s37.photobucket.com/user/mach1mustang351/media/IMG_0132_zpsrxflqydz.jpg.html)
The bearing slides on and off perfectly now. I wonder if the root cause is manufacture of the bearings. Regardless, I will measure and test fit before attempted assembly every time now.
Is there a preferred method to seat and tighten these down?? Thanks,
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I did an initial sanding on mine this weekend (I had 5 minutes to kill), but I haven't done a test fit with the bearings yet. I bought new SKF bearings which is what the originals ones were. Which brand did you buy?
I plan on using this grease. It's Moly fortified and I plan on using it for the swing arm too.
http://www.amazon.com/Valvoline-VV632-Fortified-Multi-Purpose-Vehicles/dp/B000GAD07O
What are you using? Something red? Is it this?
http://www.amazon.com/Silkolene-Pro-RG2-Grease-500g-80077400486/dp/B0022ZYXWC
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I had a set from All Balls racing and the ones that are in it now are National/BCA. I used the Mobil 1 Synthetic wheel bearing grease.
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Ooh, a grease thread. I am so happy about the way this story is turning out. :bow
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Adjusting the steering head is straightforward.
take the load off the front end.
Tighten the post nut until it is tight.
Loosen it until the front end 'drops' freely left/right
Tighten till it just binds (doesn't drop freely)
Find that perfect place where you've got freefall and any tighter binds.
Check to see that the washer under the post nut slips freely when pushed with a screwdriver
Check for any wiggle in the post by pushing and pulling on the forks. If all is set up properly and you still have wiggle, there is a problem with the bearing outer races/steering head. Once I couldn't get the wiggle to go away and discovered the lower opening of the neck was ovalized from a collision.
I'd think that about any high pressure (ep) grease would do for the bearings. Waterproof is a plus. I try to pack some into the neck tube to keep water away from the lower bearing. The plastic-looking blue is what I prefer, but I have some plastic-looking red in there right now on account of the blue was not available when I got to that point.
Remember that a bearing is really intended to go around in a circle, one way. With our swing arms and steering we have tapered roller bearings that only go a few degrees in one direction, and then a few degrees in the other. With the sideload forces present, this activity causes 'notchy' wear. If you adjust too tightly on notched races the bearing will settle into the troughs and trip over the peaks -- you'll always have some point of too loose and some point of too tight.