Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: iamcitizenme on May 12, 2015, 10:17:09 AM
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Hello everyone. I'm new to Guzzis. I had a 78 Honda CB550 that I spilled and twisted the frame. Now I find a V50III in a barn behind my house and I'm curious what to look out for. The starter was stuck so I tapped the back of it and now it cranks sometimes and other times it just spins without catching. It doesn't start but I haven't pulled the carbs off yet and I plan on pouring some fresh gas in once things are cleaned out. The airbox has been removed and the owner gave it to me and it looks pretty dry-rotted; cracked and fulla holes. It only has 8,000 miles on it and the tires look pretty good and the owner didn't modify it in any way other than the airbox. We're trying to figure out what it might need so we can discuss price. It's a beautiful bike so I want to get it working. I just want to know if it's worth it.
Chris
New York
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:PICS!: would help us with condition and whatnot.
Generally speaking a V50II is not worth a whole lot unless it's PERFECT in every way. A non-running barn find won't top 1000, probably much less. That being said anything is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
Hunter
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Welcome to WG. ;D That's a good one, and definitely worth saving. Needless to say, throw the tires away..
There are a few "mods' to help longevity, but no real issues with that bike. Can't give you a value without pictures, but it'll need completely gone through to make it a rider. I'll give a ball park guess at $1000-$1200 without seeing it.
I see Hunter beat me to it..
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Yea I'll get some pictures. He said it ran when he last parked it. I think he stopped riding when he had kids.Aside from a little rust on the headers it seems in pretty good shape. My guess would be it needs the wiring connections brushed up a little, a new battery and a carb cleaning. I just don't know if the V50IIIs are reliable. My Honda took me across the country without a hiccup. Looking for something that can take me through the Catskills the same way. I'll get pics later today.
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Sounds like you've got it in mind to try it out! I hope it works out that you can, I hate to see a Guzzi languish in a shed.
Looking forward to seeing the photos!
Chuck, you outbid me already!
Hunter
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a running, clean, cosmetically sound smallblock Guzzi of that era that has had all the required mods (trans breather, rear drive update, carb re-jetting) will not fetch over $3000 in any universe.... Factor in that smallblocks dont have the huge pool of parts, donor bikes, and interchangeability benefits of Tonti BB or LoopFrame Guzzis....
I'd say $800 max, it depends... Can you do the work yourself? Are you looking for a project? If you say yes to both, get it cheap you will have a nice little runner!
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Yea I'll get some pictures. He said it ran when he last parked it. I think he stopped riding when he had kids.Aside from a little rust on the headers it seems in pretty good shape. My guess would be it needs the wiring connections brushed up a little, a new battery and a carb cleaning. I just don't know if the V50IIIs are reliable. My Honda took me across the country without a hiccup. Looking for something that can take me through the Catskills the same way. I'll get pics later today.
;D ;D Don't they all? No, you'll have to completely clean up the wiring connections, clean and lube the ignition switch, clean the carbs, clean and lubricate the advance mechanism, do the Hayes mod on the start circuit, do the lube mod on the rear drive, and buy new tires. Oh, yeah, the breather system in a small block is mondo important. The valves are lubricated by it, and it needs to work correctly. It's a reliable bike, and loads of fun to ride.
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Okay, which is it - V50 II or V50 III? Your subject title says III but the original post says II. There are significant differences between the two. Also, the III wasn't available in the US until '81 or '82 IIRC.
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There is a long list of things needed to properly sort out a V50III. Not exactly big dough if you do the work yourself. However, don't believe anyone who tells you that you can just clean the carbs and "ride the wheels off it". Do some searches here and you will find old posts (some mine) listing the laundry list of projects.
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Whoops. It's a V50-3. Not sure of the year yet. He's still digging up the title. And when I say a "barn find" I don't mean it's covered in dirt and bird poop. It's a very clean barn used for art studios and it has been covered.
I do plan on doing the work myself. But I am new to the Guuzi so I need to research all these mods and tune-ups. Pictures in a bit.
Thanks guys.
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Okay, which is it - V50 II or V50 III? Your subject title says III but the original post says II. There are significant differences between the two. Also, the III wasn't available in the US until '81 or '82 IIRC.
Dang. My memory is always suspect, but I was thinking that my Mark3 was a 78?
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Dang. My memory is always suspect, but I was thinking that my Mark3 was a 78?
Mk2s I've worked on were '79s, the Mk3s were '82s.
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(http://s22.postimg.org/bvi6gagr5/20150512_121329.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/oa4ygm899/full/)
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(http://s22.postimg.org/jpis1ook1/20150512_121342.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/m6uj8y8gd/full/)
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(http://s22.postimg.org/lxwyj0vo1/20150512_121415.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/p4ri2ng3x/full/)
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(http://s22.postimg.org/s925zfwwh/20150512_121440.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/hm8cu0or1/full/)
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(http://s22.postimg.org/xtena2vrl/20150512_121508.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/w1lof6cel/full/)
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(http://s22.postimg.org/fixxmcoy9/20150512_121530.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/9i08pa2bx/full/)
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(http://s22.postimg.org/ogn8xg6s1/20150512_121701.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/gb56zaij1/full/)
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The small drip is a slow oil leak. The big wet spot is just water on the floor.
(http://s22.postimg.org/fmwcgcjtd/20150512_121813.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/3xscsdsul/full/)
(http://postimage.org/)
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Looks complete, except I don't see the crash bars. I'd give as much as $800 for it if I wanted it. It'll be a real labor pit, maybe not much money, though. Doing the work yourself, probably 500 bux and a month of steady work.
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I said I plan on doing the work myself, but I guess I mean within reason. I don't have a lot of tools and no specialty tools. All the work I've done in the past was with other people's tools since I'm a broke musician. So with these modifications will this be an expensive endeavor and will I need specialty tools? Or is this a good little garage project?
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;D ;D Don't they all? No, you'll have to completely clean up the wiring connections, clean and lube the ignition switch, clean the carbs, clean and lubricate the advance mechanism, do the Hayes mod on the start circuit, do the lube mod on the rear drive, and buy new tires. Oh, yeah, the breather system in a small block is mondo important. The valves are lubricated by it, and it needs to work correctly. It's a reliable bike, and loads of fun to ride.
What is the lube mod on the rear drive?
And can you tell me more about the breather system? Is there something I should modify or keep an eye out for?
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There aren't many "special" tools involved with small blocks, so I'd say it's a good "big" garage project. ;D There's an awful lot of rust and corrosion that needs to be addressed. That's just labor, but a lot of it. Nasty looking hardware. Labor again, maybe a few bux. As I mentioned, the electrical system will have to be completely gone through. Just labor, probably no money. Carbs? mmm 50 bux. Battery? Say 60 bux. Tires? Somewhere around a couple of hundred. That'll get it running.
Now.
Machines that have sat for as long as this commonly start leaking from every orifice from dried out seals. If so, you'll be pulling the rear drive, transmission, and engine out of the frame to properly address that. Just more labor. Seals and gaskets are cheap. Maybe another 1-200..
What I'm saying is just don't think you'll throw a battery in it, clean the carbs and go. Any machine that old and in that condition will be the same.
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What is the lube mod on the rear drive?
And can you tell me more about the breather system? Is there something I should modify or keep an eye out for?
You have to take it apart and drill a hole in the casting for oil to get to the front pinion bearing. While you're at it, there are some bolts to replace, plates to trash, and add Shnoor washers.
You can't just dump the breather system overboard. There is a *lot* of oil flying about in the heads/breather. The small block is set up for collected breather oil to drain back into the crankcase.
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My guess: you'd send 1-2 thousand dollars and countless hours working on it and end up with a bike worth around $2000, maybe a little more. I'd only tackle it if you enjoy doing restorations.
Rich A
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My guess: you'd send 1-2 thousand dollars and countless hours working on it and end up with a bike worth around $2000, maybe a little more. I'd only tackle it if you enjoy doing restorations.
Rich A
:+1 You could spend a bit more and get one you could ride. The corrosion on this one is going to be worrisome since all the wiring will have to be addressed or it'll never be reliable. That is a project bike, which is fine as long as you know that going in.
Hunter
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My 1st guzzi was a v50. When you get it running I'd watch out for any vehicle on the road that has the ability to move faster than 70 MPH ;D
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You can rebuild the starter motor. That's an easy job. As noted above, the breather is critical. Throw out the tires and replace the rubber brake hoses. If you're lucky the oil-facing sides of the seals won't be stiff with age. Change the oil and see if it starts. Then you'll know what leaks.
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I think everyone here is giving great advice. I'm in the middle of a similar restoration right now, and here is what I can say for sure.. it's gonna cost you a lot more than you might expect ~;
I'll throw some numbers hopefully that will help you with negotiations.
So... I'd say go in with two mind sets (assuming the engine is OK). #1 being, just do the necessary items for safety and some reliability. This will be tires, some wiring, plugs, check/replace corroded bolts, maybe starter, battery, fuel lines, carb kits, maybe brake lines (see if the brakes feel ok), and some other misc - that's probably going to put you easily at or over 1k with shipping and other this-and-that hidden costs (cleaners, tools, etc) - so if you get it for say between $500-$800 (I'd try), then you'll have a cool bike for putzing around with further restoration potential around for ~$1500 or so - not bad.
Mind set #2, full on restoration, or even 80% restoration - then you can probably double that number easily, but then you'll know exactly what you have (a nicely restored bike, by you) and you'll become very attached to it because at that point it’s your baby and you'll pretty much be thinking about it day and night and it will fill-in any available spare time you have in your life ;D
Just kidding of course, but I think the summary of the numbers may be in the ball park.
The other for sure thing is... you've come to the right place by joining this forum and it's lots of fun, great people and you'll find most answer (and some spare parts) that you'll need for either type restoration you'll be going for.
Hope that helps, and good luck.
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Nice, I would go for it, but that's just me.
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You could always "cafe" it. ~;
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Hey Chris, where are you in NY?
Perhaps some local heroes can help you get that going.
DW
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Love it or leave it. Mine is a blast in the mountains. I would start at 500 and try not to go much higher.
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It's a III, the pick of the litter for V50s. A bit more mousepower than a II. Monza is the same thing dressed in pretty clothes and with higher primary gearing. I agree with money estimates above. It's worth it if you can do the work, or at least most of it. Two books to get if you do get this thing are Guzziology (used older one is fine here, cheap Guzzi content :BEER: ) and the V50 shop manual.
Major potential problems are:
1) Rear drive -- the design is such that the pinion bearings don't get much oil feed. They're roller bearings so they don't need a lot, but they do need more than they get. Chuck has a good thread on how to remedy that. Note that if the bearings are gone (shiny magnetic flakes in the oil) the pinion shaft needs to be re-shimmed when new bearings are installed. If you can shim bevel Ducatis in your sleep, it should be a breeze. If not… there is an explanation in the shop manual. There are people who can do the job. Bearings are standard parts, available at bearing supply houses. There are other internal issues there, too, plenty of info in the archives.
Shaft drive is less expensive than chains until it blows up
2) Engine breather system. The airbox is awkward and annoying and takes up space and is a necessary part of the oil breather system. The rubber parts are none to great and probably cracked and leaking. If you put K&N or similar filters on you'll need to make a new breather system. Several ways to do that, in the archives. My V50II has a breather box from an older loopframe (Ambassador) model. I think that's what it is. I've so far kept the Monza stock just because it works even if I curse loudly every time I have to get hands anywhere near that mess that is the airbox.
3) Transmission oil leaks -- there's a rubber-and-metal seal around the clutch pushrod that can leak. It's about $ 10… and requires removal of the transmission to get to. After doing that a few times it'll be easy… How do you remove a smallblock transmission? First remove everything that isn't a transmission.
4) Exhaust valves. It's not just the 4-valve 650 Larios that have stretchy exhaust valves. V50III/Monza is similarly afflicted. Check clearances often, especially as mileage gets near 20K.
5) Ever wonder where the Moka Express coffemaker you had back in the 70s went when you tossed it? Some Guzzi aluminum castings are not particularly good material. Helicoils/time-serts/etc are Good Things.
When running well, smallblocks are lots of fun and when the problems are sorted, simple maintenance.
cr
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My 1st guzzi was a v50. When you get it running I'd watch out for any vehicle on the road that has the ability to move faster than 70 MPH ;D
I was kind of surprised at how fast my V50 III was. I sent the Kid out on it, too.. and he came back saying it was a *lot* faster than he expected.
Maybe your advance was stuck? A common issue, and would make a dog out of it.
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I was kind of surprised at how fast my V50 III was. I sent the Kid out on it, too.. and he came back saying it was a *lot* faster than he expected.
Maybe your advance was stuck? A common issue, and would make a dog out of it.
Pretty sure it was running ok I'm just a big block kinda guy. I sold it and got the cx100 :bike
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a running, clean, cosmetically sound smallblock Guzzi of that era that has had all the required mods (trans breather, rear drive update, carb re-jetting) will not fetch over $3000 in any universe.... Factor in that smallblocks dont have the huge pool of parts, donor bikes, and interchangeability benefits of Tonti BB or LoopFrame Guzzis....
I'd say $800 max, it depends... Can you do the work yourself? Are you looking for a project? If you say yes to both, get it cheap you will have a nice little runner!
Last year I listed my 81 V50 for 3k thinking I'd get no bites. Within a couple hours I had lots of interest and a day later it sold for $2,800. It was in good mechanical condition but cosmetically it was a 6-1/2 out of 10. If it were pristine I don't think there would have been any issue at all getting 3K+ for it.
I'd go $1,200ish on the one in the pic if it had a clean/clear title
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Great advice so far. If you are on the fence look at cosmetics and corrosion - expensive to fix. Mechanics are expensive, but maybe simpler as they are often available used - I think Ed at Guzzi Power has transmissions and rear drives for about $400 each. Yours are probably OK unless abused or neglected. Draining the oil from engine, trans and rear drive will tell you if there is condensation which would be a worry.
The cosmetics look good, but the corrosion looks a little scary. I'd bet the brake hydraulics need some work (stuck caliper pistons on mine) and fuses probably need cleaning. Electrics in the handlebar switches (super fragile - don't like to be messed with) ignition switch and starter relay may give trouble if corroded. A donor battery could tell you the condition of the electrics. A cheap, solid state voltage regulator is available.
Corrosion may be an issue with carb internals, but easy to pull off the float bowl and look inside.
I think V50III has points, in which case it will need the condensors replaced. Condensors have a shelf life so replace with new. While you're in there clean and lube the centrifugal advance mechanism. An electronic ignition is available.
Original coils and plug wires are a single unit and have a poor reputation.
Before putting many miles on it, pull the swingarm and drive shaft (amazingly quick to pull) and confirm that the splines are all well greased and that the u-joint is good.
Special tools: buy 6mm, 8mm and 10mm hex keys for your 3/8" ratchet and a 5mm T-handle or screw-driver handle hex key. Cut a short length of grade 5 bolt to make an alternator puller. Guzziology, the English service manual and parts books are indispensable (manual and parts books available at This Old Tractor). Hardest thing to do is replace the airfilter. Pulling the rear drive and swing arm probably takes less than 20 minutes, pulling gas tank takes less than 5 and no tools (strong fingers help get the fuel lines off the taps).
Let us know what you decide!
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This may be getting a little ahead of the game but two other cheap tools...
Get 2 brake bleeder screws to thread into the intake manifolds (with rubber caps), then make a carb balancing manometer like this:
(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn233/shawnsci/Guzzi/IMG_6605_zpsonxxilrm.jpg)
you will also want chopsticks or skewers to sync your throttle cables. ;-T
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Another resource: http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_small_blocks_older_small_block_issues_.html
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I watched a '78 V50 sell at auction in Missouri last Thursday for $2900. Decent bike, but it had been sitting up long enough that it would need to be gone through thoroughly. Oh yeah, there was a 10% buyer's premium also, so the bidder actually paid $3190 for the bike.
I didn't get a picture of the V50, but to give you some idea of the condition of it, it was similar to the other two Guzzis that were there.
This '73 V7 Sport went for $7500 + the 10%.
(http://davevv.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Marques/Moto-Guzzi-folder/Miscellaneous/i-57PdkZQ/0/XL/20150507_093901-XL.jpg)
This '56 Falcone sold for $20,000 + the 10%. I'm pretty sure the rear shocks were incorrect and I suspect the forks were not original.
(http://davevv.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Marques/Moto-Guzzi-folder/Miscellaneous/i-TS6dmz8/0/XL/20150507_093914-XL.jpg)
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This '56 Falcone sold for $20,000 + the 10%. I'm pretty sure the rear shocks were incorrect and I suspect the forks were not original.
(http://davevv.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Marques/Moto-Guzzi-folder/Miscellaneous/i-TS6dmz8/0/XL/20150507_093914-XL.jpg)
Wasn't a Falcone, but rather an Astore. Rear shocks are correct for that model, rear fender and some other bits weren't.
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Wasn't a Falcone, but rather an Astore. Rear shocks are correct for that model, rear fender and some other bits weren't.
All we need is a few more of us to say it's a Falcone and EH VOILA! it will BE a Falcone ... ! :D
Lannis
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Wasn't a Falcone, but rather an Astore. Rear shocks are correct for that model, rear fender and some other bits weren't.
Thanks for the correction. I just went with what they had listed in the catalog since I had never seen either in the flesh.
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I think we're being a little too pessimistic about this bike.
If you haven't already, pull up "Snowtigress" on a search. ;)
She'd have this bike looking and running like brand new in a week. Look what she did with that pile of corruption SHE started with!! ;-T
Lannis
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Hey Chris, where are you in NY?
Perhaps some local heroes can help you get that going.
DW
DW, I live in a small town called Wassaic up in the Hudson Valley. There are a few Guzzi-ists who frequent the bar where I work so I can talk to them this weekend when they roll in.
Great advice so far. If you are on the fence look at cosmetics and corrosion - expensive to fix. Mechanics are expensive, but maybe simpler as they are often available used - I think Ed at Guzzi Power has transmissions and rear drives for about $400 each. Yours are probably OK unless abused or neglected. Draining the oil from engine, trans and rear drive will tell you if there is condensation which would be a worry.
The cosmetics look good, but the corrosion looks a little scary. I'd bet the brake hydraulics need some work (stuck caliper pistons on mine) and fuses probably need cleaning. Electrics in the handlebar switches (super fragile - don't like to be messed with) ignition switch and starter relay may give trouble if corroded. A donor battery could tell you the condition of the electrics. A cheap, solid state voltage regulator is available.
Corrosion may be an issue with carb internals, but easy to pull off the float bowl and look inside.
I think V50III has points, in which case it will need the condensors replaced. Condensors have a shelf life so replace with new. While you're in there clean and lube the centrifugal advance mechanism. An electronic ignition is available.
Original coils and plug wires are a single unit and have a poor reputation.
Before putting many miles on it, pull the swingarm and drive shaft (amazingly quick to pull) and confirm that the splines are all well greased and that the u-joint is good.
Special tools: buy 6mm, 8mm and 10mm hex keys for your 3/8" ratchet and a 5mm T-handle or screw-driver handle hex key. Cut a short length of grade 5 bolt to make an alternator puller. Guzziology, the English service manual and parts books are indispensable (manual and parts books available at This Old Tractor). Hardest thing to do is replace the airfilter. Pulling the rear drive and swing arm probably takes less than 20 minutes, pulling gas tank takes less than 5 and no tools (strong fingers help get the fuel lines off the taps).
Let us know what you decide!
Thank you so much for the input. I have a Carbtune that I used to balance my Honda 4-cylinder. I figure I could just use two of the hoses, right?
The air filtration system has been replaced with pods. I don't know yet if he rejetted. I don't have much time between work and music so this may be a little slower than Snowtigress's project.
The thing only has 8,xxx miles on it so I can't imagine that there's too much damage. It's the sitting that worries me. Gaskets and the like. This Monday & Tuesday I should be able to spend some quality time with it. He gave the the service manual and a shop manual when he gave me the key so that should be helpful, but I'll take a look at Guzziology too.
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I think we're being a little too pessimistic about this bike.
Lannis
I couldn't agree more, Lannis. Under a grand, and I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
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I'd buy it for $500 - $600. They are great little bikes. V50III has electronic ignition. I had one restored it cafe'd it and sold it. Wish I kept it, it will do the ton Lot's of fun