Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bonafide Bob on May 13, 2015, 04:53:21 AM
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I have been using one of these on my Harley for several years with great results, I really like the ideal of being able to inspect what if any thing the filter is catching. What are your opinions of using one on my Stelvio?
http://www.webbikeworld.com/t2/flo-oil-filter/
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Oh for f*cks sakes! Same principal as any other non-filter. Ooh! It's re-useable, ain't that great. Well yes, if you only want to strain out rocks the size of Gibraltar. And how do you clean it of particles down to small enough not to cause damage?
Run away!
Pete
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Tell us how you really feel, Pete. There was one of those on the Daytona that grenaded when I was at MGC a couple of years ago. Probably didn't have a thing to do with the filter, of course, but Mark was adamant about not putting it back together with it on there. ;D
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I have a pretty good idea why that one grenaded..... No, it wasn't the oil filter......
Pete
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Oh for f*cks sakes! Same principal as any other non-filter. Ooh! It's re-useable, ain't that great. Well yes, if you only want to strain out rocks the size of Gibraltar. And how do you clean it of particles down to small enough not to cause damage?
Run away!
Pete
Did you even read what size particles it stops in the filter media before your comments?
Bob
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Did you even read what size particles it stops in the filter media before your comments?
Bob
Well, 35 microns is certainly nothing special, and the big question.. how DO you clean it? Dirty solvent tank?
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Well, 35 microns is certainly nothing special, and the big question.. how DO you clean it? Dirty solvent tank?
The maker claims 25 micron , pretty standard spec . Personally , I prefer those reusable toilet paper roll thingies :D
Dusty
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Well, 35 microns is certainly nothing special, and the big question.. how DO you clean it? Dirty solvent tank?
This may become an oil thread. I looked up oil filter micron rating and found this article...
https://www.google.com/#q=oil+filter+micron+rating
Interesting stuff but, basically 35 microns doesn't do enough to protect an engine from the most damaging particles. According to the ASE report, particles from 2 to 22 microns do the most damage.
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The maker claims 25 micron , pretty standard spec . Personally , I prefer those reusable toilet paper roll thingies :D
Dusty
The surgical grade (claimed) 304 stainless steel mesh filter media in the Flo Oil Filters is rated to filter down to 35 micron size particles
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Interesting & looks kinda cool but isn't it easier to swap out an oil filter/cartridge?
I'm a muppet that would wash it out with petrol & air drying it before priming. Sounds like too much effort for too little.
That said I don't mind a K&N/BMC air filter but suspect the principle is the same, except air filters are more expensive.
Hmmm...
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If the goal is to see what the filter is catching wouldn't it be easy enough to just cut a regular filter apart? You can buy a device designed to do just that. Rather than go to all that trouble I send my oil to Blackstone for analysis. That way I know exactly what metals are circulating and if it's enough to cause concern. With the talk of flat tappet problems in the past I see this as a prudent early warning. BTW, my last analysis came back looking really good at 23K miles.
Peter Y.
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Personally I want my filter ''factory fresh'' and the smallest of contaminates taken out. I can always cut my filter apart to see what's up. But then what am I looking at?. I need to be a metallurgist with a microscope to tell what the black or silver films are.
The canister type filter would be OK to look at the cartridge to get ''a base line'' for visual inspection to tell if a change in the oil occurred.
If you are concerned about the engine do like Pyoungbl does and send it in to be analyzed.
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WHY would I use some sort of oddball oil filter that may or may not be the right one for my engine in terms of bypass pressure, filter size, and flow rate?
Just so I can be an "Insider" and say "Yeah, I'm using some technology you guys don't know about on MY bike ...." ?
Maybe go to the site that has the testimonials from the guys who have 100K, 200K, or 500K miles on their Guzzi engine and find out what they use? You mean they don't use some whiz-bang something-special oil and super-zoot filters? AMAZING! How do they do it ..... ?
Lannis
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Did you even read what size particles it stops in the filter media before your comments?
Bob
I have a friend-former co-worker who uses that or a very similar filter on his H.D. He sings its praises, but I can buy a lot of regular filters for the price without any real benefit.
IMHO YMMV
( I think you may have stepped into a small pile, wipe it off and step around, don't track through the house or Pete may use language you won't understand. )
kjf
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Warning, pot stirring~~ This reminds me of the Fram hating crowd (note ; I am AMPHIBIOUS on the subject ;D)! Let the discussion begin??
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If you really want to protect your engine perhaps you could use it in conjunction with an 'Oil Cooler Dipstick'. Jeez! I haven't seen those bits of junk advertised for a while! Are any charlatans still spruiking them on fleabay? I should go and check for a laugh..... ;D
Yay! Not for a Guzzi but even so.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Honda-CB500-Vintage-Red-Wing-ISOCYCLE-Oil-Cooler-Dipstick-CB-500-Motorcycle-/251957606874?hash=item3aa9d7f9da&vxp=mtr
Priceless!
Pete
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Thanks for all replies, I was hoping someone had done some in depth research on them and would be able to shine some light on the subject. I can say my 06 Harley has just a tad under 100,000 mile on it with 60,000 of those miles with a Flo Oil filter and it is still running strong. I have always cleaned it with carb cleaner and blow it dry from the inside out with compressed air. I have read recently of folks using ultra sonic to clean them.
It seems Oil filters are a touchy subject on this forum, I ask other places to gather the information I am seeking.
Respects
Bob
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Shoot, I can install a couple of splitfire plugs along with the intake turbo swirl vortex generators and watch the fuel rise in the tank. :D
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It seems Oil filters are a touchy subject on this forum, I ask other places to gather the information I am seeking.
Sounds to me that you didn't get the replies you were wanting. ;D :BEER:
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Sounds to me that you didn't get the replies you were wanting. ;D :BEER:
No, I didn't, but that's okay it is not the first time in my almost 72 years. ;-)
Bob
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It seems Oil filters are a touchy subject on this forum, I ask other places to gather the information I am seeking.
Respects
Bob
You sought "Opinions". You got opinions. I don't think that anyone on this list, or any other, has a PhD in Oil Filter Performance ....
As Chuck said, I don't think you got the opinions that supported the position that you'd like to take. No problem; if you keep asking everywhere, you'll eventually find some opinions that coincide with yours ...
Lannis
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Same as the K&P oil filters. Do not hold pressure as with the better filters out there. Bound to set a bunch of codes for low oil pressure at start up.
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It seems Oil filters are a touchy subject on this forum, I ask other places to gather the information I am seeking.
http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2345648
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You sought "Opinions". You got opinions. I don't think that anyone on this list, or any other, has a PhD in Oil Filter Performance ....
As Chuck said, I don't think you got the opinions that supported the position that you'd like to take. No problem; if you keep asking everywhere, you'll eventually find some opinions that coincide with yours ...
Lannis
Different opinions are appreciated that is how we learn, I just would like to hear from someone who it well versed on the subject that is why I asked the question.
Thanks for your reply.
Bob
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Same as the K&P oil filters. Do not hold pressure as with the better filters out there. Bound to set a bunch of codes for low oil pressure at start up.
Thanks for the reply.
Bob
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http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2345648
Thanks for the link.
Bob
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Different opinions are appreciated that is how we learn, I just would like to hear from someone who it well versed on the subject that is why I asked the question.
Thanks for your reply.
Bob
You're very welcome.
If Pete "Vasco" Roper isn't "well versed" on what sort of filter ought to be used on a modern Moto Guzzi engine, who do you think IS "well versed"? If Chuck in Indiana (although he's a year short of having your time-in-grade) with all the engines he's built and maintained for motorcycles and aircraft in the last 50 years isn't "well versed", what kind of credentials do you need?
I think Mr. Jack Purolator is retired and doesn't answer emails now, and Bobby Wix passed away last year ... Heck, I have 35,000 miles on my Stelvio, I might be approaching "versed" status for what works (coughcoughUFIcoughc ough) .....
Lannis
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You sought "Opinions". You got opinions. I don't think that anyone on this list, or any other, has a PhD in Oil Filter Performance ....
As Chuck said, I don't think you got the opinions that supported the position that you'd like to take. No problem; if you keep asking everywhere, you'll eventually find some opinions that coincide with yours ...
Lannis
I don't have a position, other than I like the filter on my Harley. I'm new to Moto Guzzi and don't know how it's oiling system works and it filter requirements, I hoped to learn that here.
Thanks Bob
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You're very welcome.
If Pete "Vasco" Roper isn't "well versed" on what sort of filter ought to be used on a modern Moto Guzzi engine, who do you think IS "well versed"? If Chuck in Indiana (although he's a year short of having your time-in-grade) with all the engines he's built and maintained for motorcycles and aircraft in the last 50 years isn't "well versed", what kind of credentials do you need?
I think Mr. Jack Purolator is retired and doesn't answer emails now, and Bobby Wix passed away last year ... Heck, I have 35,000 miles on my Stelvio, I might be approaching "versed" status for what works (coughcoughUFIcoughc ough) .....
Lannis
I am new on this forum and don't know one person from the other, I don't mean disrespect to anyone.
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I am new on this forum and don't know one person from the other, I don't mean disrespect to anyone.
Not really a matter of "disrespect" - we all give Pete an ungodly hard time every once in a while.
It's that it's going to hard for ANYONE to provide any meaningful opinion to "I have an aftermarket non-standard oil filter on my Harley. Do you think I would like it on my Stelvio?"
Everyone's wondering why you just wouldn't use the standard oil filter on both bikes, I suppose. But you've probably had enough by now, so I'll hush.
Lannis
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Not really a matter of "disrespect" - we all give Pete an ungodly hard time every once in a while.
It's that it's going to hard for ANYONE to provide any meaningful opinion to "I have an aftermarket non-standard oil filter on my Harley. Do you think I would like it on my Stelvio?"
Everyone's wondering why you just wouldn't use the standard oil filter on both bikes, I suppose. But you've probably had enough by now, so I'll hush.
Lannis
Not kidding, I never thought a question about oil filters would start such a chit storm. I will be more careful in the future about any questions I might have. <LOL> BOb
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Everyone's wondering why you just wouldn't use the standard oil filter on both bikes, I suppose.
Bob, it's just that most Guzzi owners are as tight with money as a tick on a hound's butt. Matter of fact the nickel was invented at a Guzzi rally when two Guzzi riders spotted a dime at the same time.........
~;
Hunter
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Bob, it's just that most Guzzi owners are as tight with money as a tick on a hound's butt. Matter of fact the nickel was invented at a Guzzi rally when two Guzzi riders spotted a dime at the same time.........
~;
Hunter
AHEM! Let's get the facts straight. It's when two Guzzisti saw a penny on the ground and invented copper wire.
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Bob, it's not a matter of needing or wanting respect. Both Chuck and I are old enough and confident enough, (Not to mention Grouchy enough!) not to need or want much in the way of respect. :D
The thing is that things like re-useable oil strainers are so 'Mid twentieth century' it's not funny.
Give me a few hours anf if you like I'll explain why I think these things are a hideous and inefficient joke.
Pete
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Well, 35 microns is certainly nothing special, and the big question.. how DO you clean it? Dirty solvent tank?
Ultra sound cleaner works for me, couple of hours..squeaky clean. 190K on my rockster and counting.
:-)
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Give me a few hours anf if you like I'll explain why I think these things are a hideous and inefficient joke.
Pete
[/quote]
I would like to hear you thoughts on them, maybe our paths will cross one day and we can talk about them.
Thanks Bob
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I use a Purolator Pure One - not sure if they fit your MG.
"This is how an oil filter should be made. The anti-drainback valve is double the thickness of any other here, and obviously seals very well. The media is the best available, and there's a lot of it. The bypass valve is made from a laser-cut piece of stainless steel, and just can't bind or jam."
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/FilterStudy.html
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:pop
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Shoot, I can install a couple of splitfire plugs along with the intake turbo swirl vortex generators and watch the fuel rise in the tank. :D
What, no magnets? Luddite!
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Ultra sound cleaner works for me, couple of hours..squeaky clean. 190K on my rockster and counting.
:-)
You'll want to use an electro sonic cleaner on that filter, an ultrasonic will break the mesh apart,ruining the filter. If the manufacturer specifies an ultrasonic ,they are wrong. I wouldn't fool with it myself
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Ultra sound cleaner works for me, couple of hours..squeaky clean. 190K on my rockster and counting.
:-)
[/quote
At my age, time is my most valuable commodity. ;D Two hours to clean a freaking oil filter and hope I did a good job?? Nope. Not me.. ;D :BEER:
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Ultra sound cleaner works for me, couple of hours..squeaky clean. 190K on my rockster and counting.
:-)
[/quote
At my age, time is my most valuable commodity. ;D Two hours to clean a freaking oil filter and hope I did a good job?? Nope. Not me.. ;D :BEER:
Well I don't just sit and look at it while its do'in it!
There are battles to be fought and damsels in distress that need rescue!!!..so much stuff and soo little time!
:-)
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You'll want to use a sonic cleaner on that filter, an ultrasonic will break the mesh apart,ruining the filter. If the manufacturer specifies an ultrasonic ,they are wrong. I wouldn't fool with it myself
How interesting!
Lets see I use the ultra on many other things as well that are much more delicate than SS mesh!
After 11 years the mesh seems to be holding up well.
go figure?
:-)
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Well I stand corrected and after all it's only an oil filter so I guess I don't care how many years you've been doing it wrong. I usta too ;D
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Well I stand corrected and after all it's only an oil filter so I guess I don't care how many years you've been doing it wrong. ;D
What brand filter and Ultra Sonic cleaner are you using ?
Bob
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Lets see if this works? Flickr has made changes to its website with means i am having to fart about with the desktop rather than using my ipad.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5466/16996440234_44f755d10c_z.jpg)
OK, that seems to work.
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Lets see if this works? Flickr has made changes to its website with means i am having to fart about with the desktop rather than using my ipad.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5466/16996440234_44f755d10c_z.jpg)
OK, that seems to work.
'
What are we looking at?
Bob
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What brand filter and Ultra Sonic cleaner are you using ?
Bob
None, my experience with cleanable wire mesh oil filters is all on aviation gas turbines and a fuel funny car.
I'll let Pete answer the bearing question but it looks like those shells have good embed ability
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None, my experience with cleanable wire mesh oil filters is all on aviation gas turbines and a fuel funny car.
Sorry John, I meant to post that question to Kirby.
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Makes sense now, thanks
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Bob,
It's easy to dismiss something like this. I don't think many here have experience with such a device but sure have a lot of negative hostility toward it. There is at least one that chimed in with positives (from use with it) and the others... well... Touchy subject I guess. Glad you're thick-skinned. I have theories on the subject but only that. I think it's the same as most. What do I know?? Hang in there. Seems like a tough year on this board.
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OK, so why don't I think these sorts of filters are a good or happy thing? Incidentally i think that there is a good possibility they are actually going to be WORSE in your Harley with its roller bottom end than they will in a Guzzi with its plain bearing motor.
Firstly this is one area where size is important. No not the size of the filter itself but the size of the particles it is designed to remove.
First up unless something goes wrong there should be very little particulate matter in the oil. Especially in a motive package like a Guzzi where neither the clutch nor the gearbox are incorporated in the engine or share the engine's lubricant there shouldn't be much of a chance of *Lumps* being present in the oil. in times past it was common for there to be carbon and varnish build-up on bits that got hot like the undersides of piston crowns and it was possible for his sort f horrid nonsense to get flaked off and end up circulating in the oil but actual metal bits? where pray tell would they be coming from? Modern oils are chock full of really good detergents though so that becomes a bit of a non issue. Crap gets washed off and kept in suspension in the oil before it can form into large, filterable, particles. it then just gets drained out when the sump plug is pulled.
As an example of how nice and squeaky clean even hot bits can be here's a pic of an 8V piston which runs plenty hot but loo how clean the under-crown and skirts are!
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5453/17592633776_0c097bc5bc_z.jpg)
What WILL really spoil the engine's day is if something untoward gets into the oil. Either an external contaminant that gets in by mistake, (Careless checking of the oil, dirty funnel when filling etc.) or worse yet if something decides to go 'Udders Skywards' inside the engine. A very good case in point from the same engine. Buggered tappets!
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5335/16998593483_4a2d0915cd_z.jpg)
Now when this starts to happen you will begin to get shit pumped through the motor. First port of call will be the oil pump after the oil has been 'Strained' by the mesh strainers on the pick-ups. Thing is the mesh strainers will take out things like false teeth and unicorn horns but nothing small enough to matter. The crap will still end up heading to the pump and alas, no matter how good your oil filter, nothing will save the pump other than dumb luck because the *Real* filter is downstream of the pump.
So, keeping your fingers crossed that whatever munt is being pumped gets through the pump without inflicting too much damage it will go on to the oil filter proper. For the last quarter century or so Guzzi have used a quite large filter with a long filter medium. This allows plenty of through flow, even when the oil is thick and viscous when cold therefore minimising the risk of the filter going into bypass when cold. If this occurs the medium un-seats allowing un-filtered oil to pass. While less than ideal of course even contaminated oil is better than no oil at all. If it DOES happen though and particulate matter does get past, or, alternatively if the filtering medium is coarse enough to let larger particles through, you end up heading down a path that won't have a happy ending.
A rough 'Rule of thumb' for clearances on plain bearings and their journals is 1 thou for every inch of journal diameter. it is this clearance that allows oil to pass through the bearing. The oil has three purposes, the clean, to lubricate and to cool. Clean is simple enough, the oil flowing through will try and wash nasties away. Lubrication is a bit more complex and has nothing to do with the oil being 'Slippery' per-se. As the bearing spins in its journal forces acting on it will try and press the surface of the journal and the bearing together. At the same time, within the oil film, a rolling wave-front forms at the point where the greatest pressure is being applied to the film. this is called the 'Hydro Dynamic Wedge' and it is what keeps the two surfaces separate. As the oil film is crushed though the clearance between the two surfaces, Journal and bearing, can be greatly reduced. From a thou say to, quite literally microns. If the two surfaces touch, a condition known as 'Boundary Lubrication', damage will be immediate and serious, no ifs or buts. Even if they don't touch though the clearance may be so diminished that if tere are bits of crap in the oil bigger than the gap between the two surfaces? Well they have to go somewhere! So where?
The answer to that is simple. They embed themselves ins the soft metal of the bearing! This, while it protects the journal initially, (And is the reason why bearings are generally made of soft metals, its not because they need to be soft to work. Its because the bearings are sacrificial. You can machine and run cast iron on cast iron if you wish and the clearances are right but when something goes wrong its all junk!) once it gets fully embedded with microscopically broken 'Sharp Stuff' it turns itself into a fast spinning rotary grinder! Bye-Bye journal! Once the clearance gets too large the oil cannot form a wedge, boundary lubrication occurs and its all over, red-rover. The next thing you know is you're hearing the 'Dogga-Dogga Noise' and that gets more expensive each time you hear a 'Dogga'!
So lets have a look at some failed bearings. These ones are from the same 8V the piston came out of.
On this shell you can clearly see larger bits of embedded DLC coating that have somehow got through the filter. What is less immediately obvious is the speckle mottling over large areas of the lower shell. This is also embedded micro-particles, most likely ones that would of found their way quite happily through a 35 micron filter even if it wasn't bypassing. The large gouge in the upper shell is just that. a big chunk of something cause that! Unicorn horn I'd say!
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5466/16996440234_44f755d10c_z.jpg)
Now on this shell you can see the results of boundary lubrication where the oil film has eventually cried uncle! The darker, polished looking areas at the top and bottom are where the bearing has rubbed on the crankpin. If you look carefully at the bottom of the bearing you can also see where the top layer of the trimetal compound is beginning to break away revealing the cupric base below. This one wasn't very far off making the 'Dogga-Dogga' noise and that discolouration is what caused the 'Dead Engine Smell' when i pulled the barrel off!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8878/16996441144_bfd3f4367d_z.jpg)
Finally, if you look at this one you can see the microscopic 'Hazing' pattern caused by the wash-through of the aggressive particulate matter. Some of it has embedded but a large part of it has simply scored the bearing surface. Unfortunately, for a bearing to work correctly both bearing and journal have to be perfectly round and have the right clearance. once any sort of particulate damage begins to occur the bearing is compromised and failure is inevitable.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8690/16996440454_d6cc41f647_z.jpg)
Its for this reason I am so disparaging of stuff like 'Washable' oil filters. Even if you COULD guarantee that it was perfectly clean every time it was washed it won't filter down as small as a conventional disposable filter. Do we know what its bypass pressure is? The huge advantage of using a disposable filter is you just take it, along with all the crap its collected, and chuck it to the shithouse! Then you install a new, uncontaminated, one and go heavens to betsy for another 10,000Km! Simple, easy and safe!
Oh, and since I'm farting about with pics here's one of one of the 8V rods I mentioned in another thread. They are a beautifully engineered piece. Strong as!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8763/16996438874_b382ee6dd9_z.jpg)
Pete
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Sorry John, I meant to post that question to Kirby.
HI,
I use a 2 quart ultrasound that I bought some years ago from Grainger, they have many.I have used many different cleaning fluids from dish soap to diesel oil but for the filter I have had good luck with mineral spirits.
I used a scott filter and have had it since the bike was new. Lots of dirt roads to explore here in the west so change oil frequently when doing dirt.
I like being able to pull it off and pull the guts and have a look at what is in there. 30 microns is good enough for me and I like the great flow in any conditions. I studied it extensively before making the choice and I am NOT trying to talk anybody into using a SS filter, to each his own. Closing in on 200K miles and if it breaks I can figure the filter finally got me.
cheers
:-)
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Lots of pre-filter bikes like Eldos and 850T 's without filters will go 200,000. It's just when you take them to pieces the bearings are usually scrap. My guess is that the result would be the same with one of these horrors. YOMV a.
Pete
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Bob,
It's easy to dismiss something like this. I don't think many here have experience with such a device but sure have a lot of negative hostility toward it. There is at least one that chimed in with positives (from use with it) and the others... well... Touchy subject I guess. Glad you're thick-skinned. I have theories on the subject but only that. I think it's the same as most. What do I know?? Hang in there. Seems like a tough year on this board.
Thanks for the reply. I have found over the years that if you are going hang around on these board you have to be think skinned.
Bob
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Pete, thank you very much for taking the time to give such a detailed explanation, it was very informative.
Bob
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Good!
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HI,
I use a 2 quart ultrasound that I bought some years ago from Grainger, they have many.I have used many different cleaning fluids from dish soap to diesel oil but for the filter I have had good luck with mineral spirits.
I used a scott filter and have had it since the bike was new. Lots of dirt roads to explore here in the west so change oil frequently when doing dirt.
I like being able to pull it off and pull the guts and have a look at what is in there. 30 microns is good enough for me and I like the great flow in any conditions. I studied it extensively before making the choice and I am NOT trying to talk anybody into using a SS filter, to each his own. Closing in on 200K miles and if it breaks I can figure the filter finally got me.
cheers
Thanks for the reply.
Bob
:-)
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Good!
In your opinion, does Moto Guzzi recommend 10/60 oil to help avoid oil filter bypass during cold starts?
Bob
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Buggered if I know? Logic would suggest that a lower base viscosity oil would reduce the chance of bypass. Reality means there is probably a tick list of basic crap and then a few specifics WRT certain applications. I dunno! I'm just a dumbf*ck mechanic!
Pete
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Pete beat me to mentioning the old Loops and early T engines (late 75s have filters) go forever without filters. What he didn't say was justifying your washable filter by how many miles are on your engine is moot.
What I would like to know is why replace a better filter with one of less filtering ability? And then claim they are the bee's knees because you have high miles?
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Pete beat me to mentioning the old Loops and early T engines (late 75s have filters) go forever without filters. What he didn't say was justifying your washable filter by how many miles are on your engine is moot.
What I would like to know is why replace a better filter with one of less filtering ability? And then claim they are the bee's knees because you have high miles?
I figure I have changed the oil in my beemer at least 40 times since I have owned it so why a cleanable one? Convenience for one. Having said that I submit that there are many more things that effect ware in the engine thanan oil filter. I mentioned the mileage to illustrate the fact that it has done little or no harm using a SS cleanable filter. This type of filter is used to clean drinking water on ships so can't be all bad. Using the wrong viscosity oil can cause premature ware. How you ride and where you ride is a verybig factor as well. I like the flow dynamics and the convenience of a cleanable filter and have a very good method of cleaning same.
Bob asked a question and I tried to relate an answer from my experience. That's all.
:-)
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and that gets more expensive each time you hear a 'Dogga'!
;D ;D I still haven't heard the dreaded Dogga dogga noise. I probably shut down the Lario just in time after it wiped a cam lobe. There were bits in the bypass valve that were keeping it from seating.
Thanks for taking the time to post the pix and explanation, Pete..good stuff.
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The weird thing is with Mark III's Griso it really sounded like a top end problem. I'd probably still be scratching my head if it wasn't for the fact that John at Motocicolo in Sydney had had a Norge 8V that had been making a similar noise from new. He did everything he could think of at the top but eventually they had to tear it apart and Lo and behold! Same problem. Bottom end that sounded like top end! Weird, but worth remembering.
Oh, when you hear the 'Dogga-Dogga' noise? You don't forget it. Really. I kid you not..... ;D
Pete
PS. If you remember the scene at the end of 'The Blues Brothers' where the car supposedly throws a rod? The rod doesn't have to snap to make that noise.
That's the 'Dogga-Dogga' noise.
It's not good.
Blind Freddy's dog can tell its not good.
You don't need an engineering PhD to tell you it isn't good.
When you do hear it its a good time to roll your shoulders in and squeeze out a few tears because you just KNOW your wallet is about to be visciously abused....
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:+1 Never had a rod bearing let go on a motorcycle. But did on a Jap car. You don't forget that particular noise. Cringe inducing.
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Pete beat me to mentioning the old Loops and early T engines (late 75s have filters) go forever without filters. What he didn't say was justifying your washable filter by how many miles are on your engine is moot.
What I would like to know is why replace a better filter with one of less filtering ability? And then claim they are the bee's knees because you have high miles?
As I sit here watching this post and see the piling on, this post speaks volumes. You guys are always saying "show me the miles"/"without miles to prove it it means nothing". Now a guy talks about his mileage and he gets snapped by a suspender. What the hell do you guys want from someone trying to tell their experience with a product?? Kirby has told you all he can and he's had good luck so far. Lets say you Two Checks about your miles with filters on ONE bike? It's not the end-all, but give the guy a break for giving his mileage which seems pretty impressive with any bike. I'm not sold and wouldn't use a filter like this, but I won't sit here and fry the dude about giving info that seems to be the holy grail of justification around these parts... miles.
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I'm not sold and wouldn't use a filter like this,
Well, there ya go, Dawg.. you're saying the same thing. <shrug> I'm certainly not frying him, and I don't see where anyone else is, either. He asked what we thought. Most said they wouldn't use it, and gave reasons why. Mileage? For a Lario top end, yep, I think mileage will tell the tale. ;D For a Guzzi bottom end? It's not uncommon for a Guzzi with no oil filter at all to go 200000 miles if the oil is changed regularly.
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And that is my point, so saying your bike has gone X miles with aHi Flo filter means nothing. And I fail to see how having to clean it is convenient. Chuck the old and spin on a new. Nowthat's convenient. 2 hours vs 30 seconds.
Not flaming, not piling on , JMO. You axed, we gave.
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Anecdotal evidence does not prove causality. ;)
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Please send some of this hot air northward. ;-T It's been pretty chilly up here lately. :P
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As I sit here watching this post and see the piling on, this post speaks volumes. You guys are always saying "show me the miles"/"without miles to prove it it means nothing". Now a guy talks about his mileage and he gets snapped by a suspender. What the hell do you guys want from someone trying to tell their experience with a product?? Kirby has told you all he can and he's had good luck so far. Lets say you Two Checks about your miles with filters on ONE bike? It's not the end-all, but give the guy a break for giving his mileage which seems pretty impressive with any bike. I'm not sold and wouldn't use a filter like this, but I won't sit here and fry the dude about giving info that seems to be the holy grail of justification around these parts... miles.
Kev? I tried, very hard, with illustrations, to explain what particulate damage will do to a plain bearing. The risk of particulate damage is greatly increased if inadequate or borderline filtration options are taken. If Bob is happy with his set-up I'm overjoyed for him and wish him many hundreds of thousands of miles of happy motoring.
BUT!
I will not resile from my position that these devices are a pathetic and potentially damaging joke that are spruiked by fools and charlatans with an easy eye for the main chance and less than zero concern about their customers' well being and satisfaction.
YOMV, that's fine, but I will continue to savagely take the piss out of stuff like this that I see as potentially damaging because I don't want other people getting sucked in! It's not like I have some sort of vested interest. There's nothing in it for me! I just don't like people being played for suckers.
Pete
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Anecdotal evidence does not prove causality.
This, as stated above, is spot on. If the OP really wants some baseline knowledge sending oil to Blackstone every change will go a long way toward answering the "wear" question on the internals. Not all of them but a fair amount.
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Kev? I tried, very hard, with illustrations, to explain what particulate damage will do to a plain bearing. The risk of particulate damage is greatly increased if inadequate or borderline filtration options are taken. If Bob is happy with his set-up I'm overjoyed for him and wish him many hundreds of thousands of miles of happy motoring.
BUT!
I will not resile from my position that these devices are a pathetic and potentially damaging joke that are spruiked by fools and charlatans with an easy eye for the main chance and less than zero concern about their customers' well being and satisfaction.
YOMV, that's fine, but I will continue to savagely take the piss out of stuff like this that I see as potentially damaging because I don't want other people getting sucked in! It's not like I have some sort of vested interest. There's nothing in it for me! I just don't like people being played for suckers.
Pete
Pete,
I think your position is great. backed by good facts and educational. I certainly appreciate that as I love to learn and I think that's what the OP wanted. I see others putting words in others' mouths then say something in response that's less than kind. Flame the product, but no need to flame folks.
You sought "Opinions". You got opinions. I don't think that anyone on this list, or any other, has a PhD in Oil Filter Performance ....
I don't think you got the opinions that supported the position that you'd like to take. No problem; if you keep asking everywhere, you'll eventually find some opinions that coincide with yours ...
Lannis
Different opinions are appreciated that is how we learn, I just would like to hear from someone who it well versed on the subject that is why I asked the question.
Thanks for your reply.
Bob
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Pete,
I see others putting words in others' mouths then say something in response that's less than kind. Flame the product, but no need to flame folks.
I like to conduct myself of these boards like I'm sitting in my garage with a folks discussing something and try not to say anything on this computer I wouldn't say to them if they were sitting next to me.
Bob
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I like to conduct myself of these boards like I'm sitting in my garage with a folks discussing something and try not to say anything on this computer I wouldn't say to them if they were sitting next to me.
Bob
I agree, Bob..I try to do the same. Denizens here consider WG as a virtual campfire, though. ;D Conversations ebb and flow. Sometimes, they even stay on topic. ;)
Squirrel!
What were we talking about?? ;D
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I like to conduct myself of these boards like I'm sitting in my garage with a folks discussing something and try not to say anything on this computer I wouldn't say to them if they were sitting next to me.
Bob
Bob,
You are a gentleman! ;-T
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I agree, Bob..I try to do the same. Denizens here consider WG as a virtual campfire, though. ;D Conversations ebb and flow. Sometimes, they even stay on topic. ;)
Squirrel!
What were we talking about?? ;D
Bob,
You are a gentleman! ;-T
Thanks, but please note I said try. <LOL>
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I mentioned the mileage to illustrate the fact that it has done little or no harm using a SS cleanable filter. This type of filter is used to clean drinking water on ships so can't be all bad.
Kirb, better stick to airplanes ... because if "has done little or no harm" and "can't be all bad" is your idea of positive feedback, you're not going to last long writing ad copy for consumer products companies!! :D ;-T
Lannis
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Kirb, better stick to airplanes ... because if "has done little or no harm" and "can't be all bad" is your idea of positive feedback, you're not going to last long writing ad copy for consumer products companies!! :D ;-T
Lannis
Meh, he just drives em. ~; Most airline pilots I know have to be watched if they have a screwdriver in their hand.. ;D :BEER:
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Do you still have to put a hose clamp on one? Just askin.
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Do you still have to put a hose clamp on one? Just askin.
Now that is funny. Glad I hadn't just drank a gulp of coffee when I read it!
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As far as the cleaning of wire mesh filters, I and the civilized world used ultrasonic cleaners for that. Pratt& Whitney found that it broke the mesh apart so now specifies an electro sonic cleaner. Who knows how long it took in the ultrasonic to hurt anything but to do it correctly use an electro sonic
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I found this link interesting reading.
http://www.gwrra-ohh2.org/pdf/oilfilter.pdf
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My Loop doesn't even have an oil filter :BEER:
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My Loop doesn't even have an oil filter :BEER:
Mine has a screen mesh filter! YEARS ahead of it's time, that Guzzi. ;-T
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Air cooled VW beetles were not delivered with an oil filter either.
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I bought a new Triumph Bonneville in 1961 and it didn't have air or oil filters.
Bob
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I bought a new Triumph Bonneville in 1961 and it didn't have air or oil filters.
Bob
The air was cleaner then....... ;D
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My Commando 850 has a filter but the 750's did not <shrug>
I do not use the Guzzi recommendation of changing the filter every other oil change. New oil=new filter. The Mille has over 150K with an outsider. YMMV.
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Meh, he just drives em. ~; Most airline pilots I know have to be watched if they have a screwdriver in their hand.. ;D :BEER:
Except he ain't an airline pilot , and has a degree in mechanical engineering , just sayin ;)
Dusty
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As far as the cleaning of wire mesh filters, I and the civilized world used ultrasonic cleaners for that. Pratt& Whitney found that it broke the mesh apart so now specifies an electro sonic cleaner. Who knows how long it took in the ultrasonic to hurt anything but to do it correctly use an electro sonic
Thanks John!
The ultrasound cleaners used by engine manufacturers are double throw me down state of the art costing $$$$$ with VERY caustic cleaning media.
Mine on the other hand is a run of the mill CHEAP one using mineral spirits that is easy on jewelry and cartridge cases fuel injectors etc. Not only that the filters used in turbine engines are more complicated than the simple ones used on a scooter which are a single sheet(s) with lazer cut holes folded onto a frame work.
Works good and lasts a long time.
AFTER ALL they accomplish almost all the filtering needs of a 50,000,000 $ engine.
:-)
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And that is my point, so saying your bike has gone X miles with aHi Flo filter means nothing. And I fail to see how having to clean it is convenient. Chuck the old and spin on a new. Nowthat's convenient. 2 hours vs 30 seconds.
Not flaming, not piling on , JMO. You axed, we gave.
It is convenient only because I live in 3 different places in the states and I never have to worry about having a filter. there are many reasons for not using a cleanable filter.
1. You are going to get rid of the machine and the investment is not good for you pocketbook.
2. You don't have a the equipment to clean/service the filter
3. You don't have the desire to spend an extra hour to do it right.
4. You have the bike serviced by a shop or dealer and they won't do it for you.
5. You just don't care.
6. You don't have the ability to service such a device.
7. You don't believe that 30 to 35 micron filtering is good enough but a K&N air filter is OK (which also needs to be cleaned and serviced)
:-)