Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: SmithSwede on May 13, 2015, 11:40:31 AM
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OK, in the last couple of days, my Stone has started to "moan" from the gas tank far more than normal. This happens after I shut the engine off after a long ride. The moaning will last a good two or three minutes.
It did the same thing this morning, so I tried to remove the fuel cap, and there was enough vacuum in the tank that removing the cap was difficult. On the other hand, the bike runs just fine at low or high speed.
So, it sounds like I've got some kind of tank venting issue. What's the recommended repair?
Bike is dead stock; still has the EVAP canister on it. Do I need to remove some line, flush it and blow it out? Is there some check valve in their which might be wonky? Something fubar about the canister?
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How much gas in the tank? I intentionally left my fuel low knowing I was going to lift the tank back for some maintenance. My bike has been moaning on and off as the temps rise and fall in the garage. Hasn't even been ridden.
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Possibilities:
1. Have you had the tank off recently? If so, the vent line may be pinched.
If not,
2. The vent in the area where the gas cap goes in may have debris clogging it. Not likely but possible.
3. If your evaporative canister is saturated with gas, it could be the problem. If you've overfilled the gas tank recently (probably several times), the canister could be saturated. The canister is filled with pellets (I think they're made of charcoal)
Evap canister systems are not on Euro bikes (unless they've just started putting them on there) and can cause problems like this. I have removed them from every bike that I've owned that came with one on it.
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Possibilities:
1. Have you had the tank off recently? If so, the vent line may be pinched.
If not,
2. The vent in the area where the gas cap goes in may have debris clogging it. Not likely but possible.
3. If your evaporative canister is saturated with gas, it could be the problem. If you've overfilled the gas tank recently (probably several times), the canister could be saturated.
Pretty sure you made this one up.
Evap canister systems are not on Euro bikes (unless they've just started putting them on there) and can cause problems like this. I have removed them from every bike that I've owned that came with one on it.
If you really believed that you'd have removed them from all your cars and trucks since forever, too. Have you?
The vent suggestions are plausible. If there's a kink or sag in the line, if it's pinched or if the vent/tipover valves are damaged or installed incorrectly (unlike the mythical 'saturated canister' there ARE documented cases of reversed tipover valves from the factory) you could get the suction problem. Do look for it though. You'll find it, without tossing the canister.
It is a problem with potentially bad effects. That suction and pressure cycle makes the tank expand and contract like a lung. This will cause cracks over time.
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'13 V7 has a steel tank, won't be expanding like the older plastic ones. FWIW, my '13 V7 moans too. The evap cannister is gone and I know that my lines are not kinked. This is just the pressure release valve doing its job.
Peter Y.
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No, the steel tanks don't expand and contract very well. That's why they split seams. I've got a ~98 Bassa tank here with a 3-inch crack in the lower tunnel seam. As an aside, this one also had that little piggy-tail-shaped filler-well drain pinched closed with a dab of epoxy on the end. Some genius no doubt thinking it was the vent system . . .
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If you really believed that you'd have removed them from all your cars and trucks since forever, too. Have you?
The vent suggestions are plausible. If there's a kink or sag in the line, if it's pinched or if the vent/tipover valves are damaged or installed incorrectly (unlike the mythical 'saturated canister' there ARE documented cases of reversed tipover valves from the factory) you could get the suction problem. Do look for it though. You'll find it, without tossing the canister.
It is a problem with potentially bad effects. That suction and pressure cycle makes the tank expand and contract like a lung. This will cause cracks over time.
The problem is that motorcycle manufacturers don't have the same room to put adequate size canister systems on their products (like car manufacturers do). So, no.......I don't remove them from my automobiles.
But, I have removed them from over 15 motorcycles and four Vespa scooters. Over six of the motorcycles did not have steel or aluminum tanks and never a crack has appeared. I sold several of the bikes to people that I knew and they never had a problem as time has passed. My present bike has a plastic tank and the canister was removed 18k+ miles and around five years ago when the bike had less than 1k miles on it with no cracks. Sorry, but your statement doesn't hold water. As for the tipover problem: I'm more than willing to take a chance vs putting up with these stupid evap systems that should have never been put on a motorcycle. Just my two cents ...............and you have yours.
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BTW: Re. "the mythical 'saturated canister"; They absolutely can become saturated from gas overflow. Talk to any motorcycle or scooter mechanic who works on two wheelers that are equipped with Evap Canister systems and they will confirm it. I've read plenty of posts where it's happened to plenty of people.
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I'm always up for having a myth confirmed or dispelled. ;-T We've got a few mechanics on the board here, and I put in a career mechanicking. I'll open with no personal experience with a customer's rig (of any sort) and no confirmed/substantiated/documented reports from anyone anywhere ever. I've asked over and over for substantiated examples of a carbon can misbehaving -- never had one. Certainly never heard of a pattern of failure with carbon cans that indicate they're a danger.
How about it, Pete?
But you're bypassing telling us why carbon cans must be removed from your bikes, but not from your other vehicles.
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Nope, I answered you in my first sentence: Quote from that post....... "The problem is that motorcycle manufacturers don't have the same room to put adequate size canister systems on their products (like car manufacturers do). So, no.......I don't remove them from my automobiles."
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And I also said in my first post to this thread: "Evap canister systems are not on Euro bikes (unless they've just started putting them on there):. I'm pretty sure that Pete gets the same bikes that Europe & the UK receive so unless they've recently started putting evap canister systems on them..........they're non existent unless someone imported a bike from North America. Ergo, he's doesn't have to deal with these problems. I've read posts from working motorcycle & scooter mechanics who have encountered clogged canisters from overfilling at the pump. They attempt to dry them out and if that doesn't work, they replace the canister because they're not allowed to remove the evap system (legally) since the vehicle was accepted by the feds to sell in the USA. If the manufacturer didn't put the evap system on the unit for it's qualification to be sold in the USA (except for CA vehicles), the feds would accept it because they didn't institute the problem but since it was on there at the time of qualification, the dealer can't legally remove it.
All of this started on motorcycles & scooters because of do-gooder politicians from CA. The manufacturers didn't want to build a bike with a certain spec only for CA for they stuck them on all of them. Where do you think the vent and overflow lines on motorcycles went before they put evap systems on them? Think about it.
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My Stone moans.
My system is intact, as has been the systems on all my previous bikes so equipped EXCEPT the Jackal because the system was huge and already fubar.
I've not had a single problem related to any of them, EXCEPT the one I removed which stunk up the garage and peed raw fuel once in a while.
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To answer some of the questions. No, the tank has not been removed recently (but I'll check for kinks).
And yes, I'm aware that the tank tends to "moan" a bit, and mine has always done so. But it has never done this moaning for such a prolonged period of time, and it's never had a vacuum in the tank such that removing the fuel cap is difficult. I've got 24,000 miles on the bike--this is something it's never done before.
Tank is currently half full. I'm aware of overfilling problem, and don't do that. It's a steel tank.
Finally, while I'm not sure this matters, we have had seemingly non-stop rain here in Dallas for weeks now, so the bike has been ridden a lot in soggy conditions, and over some dirt/mud country roads. I just looked at the evap canister, and it's got a lot of mud and grit all over it, including the little projection on the right side which does not have a hose attached to it.
Which is the line that is supposed to vent the tank? I think there is one hose on the evap canister that leads to the manifold, so I guess if engine is running there will be a vacuum on that line. So is the vent line for the tank the "other" line?
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SmithSwede; I'm not familiar with the evap system on your specific bike but it sounds like the little projection on the canister may be a vent for the canister. (not sure, but sounds possible)
If you're comfortable with removing or raising the tank slightly, you could disconnect the vent line from the nipple on the bottom of the tank and then reconnect the tank / start the bike and let it run for a few minutes and see if you still have vacuum in the tank when you remove the gas cap. If you don't then you know that somewhere between after the vent port on the bottom of the tank is clogged. It could be the canister or somewhere else along the path but you'd know for sure that the problem is in that line. You'll also be able to see if a kink has developed in the line (not probable since you haven't had the tank off.........but you can see while you're there).
*You should have two lines connected to the bottom of the tank: One is for the fuel overflow and the other is for venting the tank. If you remove one of the lines and blow air through the vent port at the top of the gas tank (just under the gas cap when it's removed) you can see which one the air comes through and determine which one is for venting and which one is for fuel overflow. The fuel overflow line sits lower in the filler neck (in my V7 Classic, it's under the little metal cap in the filler neck that you can move with your finger).
Good luck
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Is it possible that
...it's warmer than it has been in recent months/rides and a bigger temp differential is making it moan more/longer than it did in cooler weather?
I guess what I'm saying is maybe it's not a sudden increase, you just got used to less moaning over the cooler months?
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Is it possible that
...it's warmer than it has been in recent months/rides and a bigger temp differential is making it moan more/longer than it did in cooler weather?
I guess what I'm saying is maybe it's not a sudden increase, you just got used to less moaning over the cooler months?
Warmer weather can absolutely make the Evap system "MOO" more than normal but he's building vacuum in the tank which indicates that one of the lines is blocked or the canister is clogged. It's a classic symptom of an Evap system problem.
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To answer some of the questions. No, the tank has not been removed recently (but I'll check for kinks).
And yes, I'm aware that the tank tends to "moan" a bit, and mine has always done so. But it has never done this moaning for such a prolonged period of time, and it's never had a vacuum in the tank such that removing the fuel cap is difficult. I've got 24,000 miles on the bike--this is something it's never done before.
Tank is currently half full. I'm aware of overfilling problem, and don't do that. It's a steel tank.
Finally, while I'm not sure this matters, we have had seemingly non-stop rain here in Dallas for weeks now, so the bike has been ridden a lot in soggy conditions, and over some dirt/mud country roads. I just looked at the evap canister, and it's got a lot of mud and grit all over it, including the little projection on the right side which does not have a hose attached to it.
Which is the line that is supposed to vent the tank? I think there is one hose on the evap canister that leads to the manifold, so I guess if engine is running there will be a vacuum on that line. So is the vent line for the tank the "other" line?
Mine tends to "moan" MORE with LESS gas in the tank. Especially when the garage is warm.
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The vacuum on tank tells me something is irregular. The mud suggests the canister air inlet could be the issue.
Besides capturing escaping vapors, I THINK the tank draws air in through the same tube to replace the exiting fuel.
Unless, and I don't think this is the case, but the fuel caps themselves used to let air in and if that's still the case then a plugged inlet there would be the issue.
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I'm pretty sure that the OP's bike and mine have the exact same fuel cap & opening to the tank. (at least, they look identical in pictures). If that's the case, when you remove the gas cap, the air vent is right at the very top of the filler neck.............an d the overflow hole is down lower, underneath the little moveable silver piece with the hole where the gas pump nozzle goes. If you remove the screws and lift the tank ring off, the little silver piece comes off and you can see the overflow vent. The European bikes may still have a different gas cap/vent system since they don't have the EVAP canister systems (unless they've recently started putting them on)
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If the size of the can was the problem then everyone with a can that size would also have the problem -- obviously not the case. Motor vehicles have had evap cans since the early 70s. If the problem was that it was a California idea and bad simply because it was a doo-gooder idea, then everyone everywhere would be having the problem. They're not. Also, (to repeat) if you believed the cans are a bad idea inherently, you'd have removed them on all your vehicles, which you haven't. That leaves the argument at the political level of "it's a California idea that I disagree with."
You're correct that the spigot that has no hose is probably the overflow/vent to air. I have not seen that particular can so I can't say if there are separate spigots for overflow and vent.
But if it was saturated, fuel would be dripping (or pouring) out those spigots. Maybe the OP will tell us. If one of the spigots is plugged from road mud, that's not an evap can failure or a failure of the system. It's an abnormal plugging of the vent.
We're back to a tank vent valve/hose problem, which would exist if the can was present or not.
One way to check is to disconnect the vent hose from the can and put a vacuum gauge on it. Plug the overflow and/or can vent. Start the engine, rev it a bit and see if the vacuum gauge moves. Then move the vacuum gauge to the lower side of the vent valve/tipover valve and try it. Then move it to the high side of the vent (pull from the tank and insert the gauge there). See at which point you stop getting vacuum. Your blockage will be between the no vacuum point and the last point of vaccum.
I'm still not seeing any science here -- no evidence of any 'classic failure', so with respect, I need to reject that 'classic symptoms' exist. I have no doubt that tank suck exists -- I've had it too. I however don't believe that the evil carbon can is the culprit simply because carbon cans are evil.
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. . . And again the topic is falling off the first page without any confirmed case of a carbon can causing problems. I'd think that if this was an actual problem the shops would have some input. ??? It leaves me believing that the anti-can camp's problem is political, not practical.
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Rodekyll, You obviously just want to argue about something that you don't have any knowledge about. You just want to argue for the sake of arguing. I KNOW what I'm talking about and YOU DON'T when it comes to these canisters. If you took the time to do some internet searching, you'd see that motorcycle & automobile carbon canisters CAN get clogged by overfilling the vehicle.......then, the excess gas saturates the canister. They can also become clogged by the fuel vapor that the charcoal filters in the canister. It eventually impregnates the carbon to the point where it clogs the canister. If you're educate yourself on this matter rather than being Mr. Naysayer, you'd actually learn something.
I posted in this thread in an attempt to help the OP; NOT to argue with you. You have an agenda and I'm not going to take the bait any longer. Enjoy talking to yourself.
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I'll defend Rodekyll here. Even if the canister does get "clogged" with fuel, it'll dry out when the fuel evaporates, the fuel won't "ruin" the canister. I've never come across a truly clogged canister. Kinked or collapsed vent hose, that's a different issue, common enough if the tank is installed without care.
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after enjoying a 200 mile blast through the North Georgia mountains yesterday I stopped on top of Brass town bald for a cigar. approximately 72 up there and lets call it 5000 feet. my 2015 made by Kawasaki (yes I have sinned) started moaning the minute I shut it off. sounded like a stuck relay letting something still run. 45 minutes later I could still hear it from 20 feet away so I put down the Churchill and popped the gas cap open. whoosh, and the noise stopped for about 10 minutes then started again. 1 gallon of gas left in a 5.5 gallon tank. welcome to the crappy world of the EPA and cheap gas. ignore it and ride or fix as told to in the above fixes.
DAMM! I think I might just duplicate the day all over again today.
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I'll defend Rodekyll here. Even if the canister does get "clogged" with fuel, it'll dry out when the fuel evaporates, the fuel won't "ruin" the canister. I've never come across a truly clogged canister. Kinked or collapsed vent hose, that's a different issue, common enough if the tank is installed without care.
Just to be perfectly clear.
Sib, he's saying specifically that the canister can't get clogged and cause a problem. I'm saying that they can (and do) get clogged. Several of my posts further up in this thread, I said that the procedure is to let the canister dry out and if it doesn't, replace it. Check my posts and you'll see what I said and what he said.
He just wants to argue because he doesn't think people should remove the evap systems from their bikes. And I'm going to keep removing them from every bike that I will own. To each his own.
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Maybe the word Saturated is better.
I've HEARD reports about some Ducs running rough for a few minutes if they were overfilled and the canister was separated (so it runs rich, fouls the hot idle during canister purge).
I say HEARD because the salesman at FBF warned us of that, but we ignored it and have never had a problem with the 4 years since. I ALWAYS top it off as much as possible for max range.
And as I said earlier, I've never had a problem with a canister, automotive or bike.
Hey, anything CAN break, but I would think it's a pretty rare occurrence that something might happen to the canister that could cause an actual no-start condition, or a severe rideability/driveability problem.
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Rodekyll, You obviously just want to argue about something that you don't have any knowledge about. You just want to argue for the sake of arguing. I KNOW what I'm talking about and YOU DON'T when it comes to these canisters. If you took the time to do some internet searching, you'd see that motorcycle & automobile carbon canisters CAN get clogged by overfilling the vehicle.......then, the excess gas saturates the canister. They can also become clogged by the fuel vapor that the charcoal filters in the canister. It eventually impregnates the carbon to the point where it clogs the canister. If you're educate yourself on this matter rather than being Mr. Naysayer, you'd actually learn something.
I posted in this thread in an attempt to help the OP; NOT to argue with you. You have an agenda and I'm not going to take the bait any longer. Enjoy talking to yourself.
In other words you've got nothing.
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(snipped)
Also, (to repeat) if you believed the cans are a bad idea inherently, you'd have removed them on all your vehicles, which you haven't.
(snipped)
You can't disable it on an automobile without turning on the MIL or "emissions" light and setting a code. You can reset it, but it'll come back straightaway.
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(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/guzzi%20girl2_zpsc3zjks2k.jpg)
Just a phase it is going through?
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Thanks for all the tips and assistance!
There is a nipple on the right side of the EVAP canister that has never had a hose attached to it. It was filled with mud and grit. When I poked a small allen key into it, it would not go in, until suddenly it did go it. Seems like there is a flap or valve in there, and it was sticky--but now it's not. (Or I broke it)
Anyway, since poking at that thing, the problem seems to have gone away. I've run about 150 miles; opened cap repeatedly, no vacuum. So my current theory is that this is some kind of vent and it was sticking closed, and thus an excessive vacuum was being formed.
That's not a perfectly scientific conclusion, since I also jiggled, pushed, and pulled the various other lines to see if they were kinked. They didn't appear to be, but I suppose it's possible I un-kinked a hole or otherwise dislodged an obstruction. But my strong hunch is the right side of that evap canister got plugged up with silt and mud in all the rain, and wasn't opening the way it should.
This little stub on the right side is just sitting there exposed to the elements. It doesn't have a hose or filter or anything. And if it's equalizing a vacuum, then it is at least occasionally sucking all that crap in. But to be fair, I run the bike on dirt roads a fair bit, and it's been very sloppy/muddy lately, so that's probably not the typical road environment.
Seriously thinking about just removing the canister contraption and venting it the European way. Then I'll toss the dang canister into the Trinity River. I need to go to the river anyway to dump some scrap lead and left-over benzene I've got hanging around the house.
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Well, that would explain all of your symptoms. A plugged vent to the air would allow the connection to the intake manifold to build up vacuum in the fuel tank. My suggestion would be to leave the canister on, so we can all breathe a little less pollution, and not ride with the canister under muddy water. More seriously, this seems like a freak accident.
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There is a nipple on the right side of the EVAP canister that has never had a hose attached to it. It was filled with mud and grit. When I poked a small allen key into it, it would not go in, until suddenly it did go it. Seems like there is a flap or valve in there, and it was sticky--but now it's not. (Or I broke it)
Anyway, since poking at that thing, the problem seems to have gone away. I've run about 150 miles; opened cap repeatedly, no vacuum.
Yup, that was what I was thinking...
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Goodonya for finding and fixing the problem!
I'm wondering if it was mud or a mud dauber that plugged the vent. It's one reason we do a walk-around before we put an airplane into the sky. I've knocked all sorts of tiny critters out of my pitot tubes and air cleaners.
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Do *not* get me started on $:&8/$ mud daubers. They are all over my rural home.
Little nasties took down my Ninja 250 last year. Built a nest overnight in the snorkel to the air filter. Bike would start, idle, and run fine at 0-50% throttle, but otherwise bog. Drove me nuts.
I changed plugs, checked valve clearance, cleaned air filter, replaced igniters, ECU. Nothing worked. Until a guy on 250 forum mentioned similar issue due to girl friend spilling her gummi bears doen into intake snorkel. So I poked a wire through long snorkel, and sure enough...out come freshly made dirt dauber nest.
And to think. Each nest contains a paralyzed, zombie spider stung by Mama Wasp to feed the hatchlings.
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I had a spider living in a bolt hole in a frame leaning on the wall. It was a happy little spider and I liked watching it run around the frame tubes looking for whatever spiders look for. One day a wasp swooped down and the spider scampered for safety. The wasp didn't really go after it until it had disappeared into his hole, but as soon as it did, the wasp was all over it. I could hear wings batting, and I'm sure there was a little scream. . . . .
After a few seconds some spider legs scratched at the mouth of the hole and got dragged back inside. Then the wasp flew out again. less than an hour later the bolt hole was plugged with mud.
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I had a spider living in a bolt hole in a frame leaning on the wall. It was a happy little spider and I liked watching it run around the frame tubes looking for whatever spiders look for. One day a wasp swooped down and the spider scampered for safety. The wasp didn't really go after it until it had disappeared into his hole, but as soon as it did, the wasp was all over it. I could hear wings batting, and I'm sure there was a little scream. . . . .
After a few seconds some spider legs scratched at the mouth of the hole and got dragged back inside. Then the wasp flew out again. less than an hour later the bolt hole was plugged with mud.
Nature, red in tooth and claw. Except that spider "blood" (hemolymph) is more likely to be pale blue.