Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: rocker59 on May 14, 2015, 05:36:27 PM
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Hey all,
Relaying this message for Dusty. He's broke down in Bristow Oklahoma. Fuel pump not not pumping.
2001 California Jackal. Relays suspected.
Can anyone tell me which relay controls the fuel pump?
I'll relay the suggestions to him. Unfortunately he's 150 miles from me, so it will be long-distance help.
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On my 98EV, it is the furthest forward relay and fuse which control the fuel pump. There are six identical relays. Mark them with some number and start moving them around to different sockets. The numbering just helps you get it all back where it was if you don't cure the problem.
Sidestand cutout switch?
Kill switch?
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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I *should* have this somewhere, but I'm fixing dinner. Tell him to pull them all out, switch them around, wiggle them around, etc. Back later..
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It's the two relays that sit on either side of a group of two fuses. Either one bad can cause the problem if it's a relay. He has a map on the inside of the sidecover he removed to access the relay board. Also, iirc, it's those two fuses that control the power -- one to the ecu and the other to the fuel pump. Either of those bad will cause the same problem.
Tell him good luck and he can call me for help if he needs to.
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called him. he's lost all electrical power except taillight.
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We got the tail light back -- now it's the starter. He has 4 and 5-post relays and is mixing/matching. He seems to gain/lose whenever he swaps relays. He has someone there with him who's scampering to the parts house for a couple more 5-post relays. I think his mix-n-match will be more successful if he swaps in a 5-post.
He's in a parking lot and has water, so it could be worser than it is.
My wiring diagram doesn't match his bike perzaxtly. I'm trying to 'interpret' it as we chat. He's hung up the phone and off to do things, so I'm leaving my phone to get some field work done -- It's 3:15P here -- I'll be gone an hour.
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When I had this happen on the Nero a couple years ago, it was two relays gone bad at the same time.
He's got someone running to NAPA for a couple of 5-pin relays.
Sidestand switch was disabled previously, so that's been ruled out.
Will update when I hear back from him.
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called him. he's lost all electrical power except taillight.
Hmm, have him exercise the ignition switch..
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All good suggestions.... Waiting to hear about success (probably from new relays).
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External pump? also check wiring connections on the base of the pump.. +2 on the ignition switch as one more possibility.
and the base where the relays plug in can be suspect.
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The battery has gone bad due to over-charging. It may still show 12.4 volts but it has no power. This happened to me a few months ago on an 01 EV. A digital multi meter won't show the battery is dead. But a new battery will.
Steve
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If he's lost all power lights etc I suspect the ignition switch, the tail light is on a different contact
Mike, I will find something and send it to your e-mail address (I can't send it via here)
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If he's lost all power lights etc I suspect the ignition switch, the tail light is on a different contact
Mike, I will find something and send it to your e-mail address (I can't send it via here)
Yep, that's why I said ignition switch. Maybe just exercising it will make it make contact. If all comes to naught, just tie all the wires at the switch together and ride it home.
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Yep, that's why I said ignition switch. Maybe just exercising it will make it make contact. If all comes to naught, just tie all the wires at the switch together and ride it home.
Yeah, I hear that, and my Jackal ignition went out on the Blue Ridge many years ago. But if it were me I'd check terminal connections first, relays next, and ignition last. And if it's ignition, he can bypass it pretty easily.
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If he has no lights or horn could be ignition switch (tail lights going)
Jumper the tops of fuse 1,2,3 & 4 together this will get power back via the park switch contact.
Sent from my shoe phone!
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I was on the phone with him as he was swapping relays (before trying to find 5-posters) and the problem seemed to be following the relays around. He said all the fuses had been changed (all 15a -- is that right?) but he had nothing to test them with. I think he might have had it at one point -- all systems go, he implied -- and then the starter wouldn't crank. That's when he decided to head to the store for the relays.
Those should be back by now. Anyone heard from him?
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2036 hrs. Our boy reports 1/2 the town is helping him out, including the city attorney. Sounds like he's well taken care of. Okies are GREAT folks! ;-T
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Well my mamma used to say that when you get attorneys involved you're already a loser.
This can't be that hard. . . .
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Just called Dusty...still working on it. I'm thinking ignition switch wiring came loose.
Happened on my Giada...wire came off the cluster. Soldored it and no problems since.
Wish I was closer so I could help more...
Thanks to everyone on this board that is trying to help..
Dusty is a trooper!
The Guzzi family is a special breed...
Jeff
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This may be a good reminder to replace our OEM relays with GEI ones from Pyro Dan. They are very inexpensive even with postage from Wisconsin. Dan says they are much more reliable than what Guzzi's come with.
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I sent Mike a sketch.
The only two relays you really need are the ECU and the ECU Power relay, all the rest can be jumped one way or another
Get power to the petcock fuse, that will pick up the ECU which causes the ECU Power relay to pick up
(http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/Kiwi_Roy/EV%20Wiring/EVFuseRelayLayout_zps74d7d55c.jpg)
If there's no power on fuse 3 & 4 jumper the 4 fuses together and you will get a backfeed from the tail light circuit.
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I hung up the phone fropm talking with dusty and the town lost internet, tv, and telephone for the night. So I don't know how it's working out for him and he hasn't been able to get through to me on the phone. When communications went down he had everything functioning except that he couldn't hear a fuel pump and no starter. Anyone have an update?
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Horn & Start = no power on fuse 3, I'll say again ignition switch.
This is the reason I drew the sketch above, it shows where the wires come from / go to
David, what do you mean everything was functioning?
Since there is no Start which is powered from Fuse 3 I suspect the wire from D of the ignition switch is broken or the contact has melted
Jamb a bit of wire in between Fuse 2 & Fuse 3 (with fuse in place) this will backfeed power from the Park circuit terminal A of the switch.
If you remove the start relay jam a bit of wire in the 87 socket then touch the other end on the battery it will crank.
Does Dusty have any means of checking for Voltage e.g. a 12 Volt lamp?
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Via telephone Dusty and I did some relay swapping and apparently a broken wire was found incidental to this process. I had just gotten to the relay swapping stage when the headlight and idiot lights should have been on and were not. Apparently when the newly discovered broken wire was mended all systems went go and bike started normally. So what I do know is at least one four pin relay was inappropriately placed- that has been rectified. At least one wire which I assume was visually observed to be broken was repaired. Bike has started normally and Dusty is wheels up and headed for home and will be severely flogged if he shuts the bike down for any reason before he reaches his driveway
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A successful outcome! This is a great group of people. Kudos to everyone who helped! :BEER:
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Best read on the situation I can see from 250 miles away is this. A four pin relay had been utilized in the #3 relay position having the same effect as cycling the kill switch. When the proper relay was placed the fuel pump began to run normally for what Dusty said was the first time since last nights first no start condition. If the broken wire that was keeping the headlight and idiot lights from working was also not supplying the regulator reference voltage that equals dead battery and no start. I am guessing that Dustys first move was the relay swapping if an inappropriate relay is placed in the #3 position that Moto Guzzi will never start on its own nor will the fuel pump operate or the headlight work. All of these conditions were observed . When the relays were placed correctly the fuel pump began normal operation but the headlight did not. Bike would not crank at this time. When the broken wire was repaired the headlight came on and bike started normally. My guess is broken wire led to a no start condition related to low voltage. Cascading effects of roadside repair complicated the diagnosis and the gremlin that broke the wire has been entertained and rewarded for his efforts.
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Just a thought here...
" Dusty is wheels up and headed for home and will be severely flogged if he shuts the bike down for any reason before he reaches his driveway "
Perhaps as a fundraiser for the forum we could raffle off the opportunity to severely flog Dusty. It's not my thing, but there's got to be somebody who would pay for the chance.
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Delrod
Thanks for the update.
I'm surprised there's still guzzis running around with 4 pin relays, they cause nothing but trouble.
Shuffling the relays around just made it more confusing, now you had 2 faults.
It will be interesting to hear which wire was broken.
The main thing he's back on the road
And has a tale to tell ;D
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It'll be interesting to see if he can make it home without stopping to talk to someone😃
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Delrod
Thanks for the update.
I'm surprised there's still guzzis running around with 4 pin relays, they cause nothing but trouble.
Shuffling the relays around just made it more confusing, now you had 2 faults.
It will be interesting to hear which wire was broken.
The main thing he's back on the road
And has a tale to tell ;D
I told him to make sure the 4-pin relay didn't get moved to a 5-pin slot.
Easy mistake to make. It happened to me a couple years ago.
And, you were the one that set me straight! :BEER:
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The Mother Goose Co Op On Line Repair Service .... ;-T
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/repair_zpspynjhj4m.jpg)
Change the logo and bike for a old Moto Guzzi model for our own forum of course. ;)
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Just a thought here...
" Dusty is wheels up and headed for home and will be severely flogged if he shuts the bike down for any reason before he reaches his driveway "
Perhaps as a fundraiser for the forum we could raffle off the opportunity to severely flog Dusty. It's not my thing, but there's got to be somebody who would pay for the chance.
Can we add others' names to the list? ;) ::) I'm in. ;-T
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Delrod
Thanks for the update.
I'm surprised there's still guzzis running around with 4 pin relays, they cause nothing but trouble.
Shuffling the relays around just made it more confusing, now you had 2 faults.
It will be interesting to hear which wire was broken.
The main thing he's back on the road
And has a tale to tell ;D
Roy it will be interesting to me as well which wire. He described it as being under the headstock. When he is a better place to do so maybe we can get identification and maybe confirm duplication by phsically breaking that connection. Would you concur with my conclusion referencing the loss of regulator reference voltage or was that too big a jump. This illustrates my experience with gremlins in general BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU DISTURB IN AN ATTEMPT TO RECTIFY A SITUATION. Often in my experience this causes multiple issues that complicate the original situation. I often ignore this advice and frequently pay the price.
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It'll be interesting to see if he can make it home without stopping to talk to someone😃
John you are a naughty boy...........reali stic but naughty
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It'll be interesting to see if he can make it home without stopping to talk to someone😃
This will be a bigger curse than any flogging could accomplish. His fingers should be fresh for the keyboard however. ~;
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Horn & Start = no power on fuse 3, I'll say again ignition switch.
This is the reason I drew the sketch above, it shows where the wires come from / go to
David, what do you mean everything was functioning?
Since there is no Start which is powered from Fuse 3 I suspect the wire from D of the ignition switch is broken or the contact has melted
Jamb a bit of wire in between Fuse 2 & Fuse 3 (with fuse in place) this will backfeed power from the Park circuit terminal A of the switch.
If you remove the start relay jam a bit of wire in the 87 socket then touch the other end on the battery it will crank.
Does Dusty have any means of checking for Voltage e.g. a 12 Volt lamp?
Dusty did not have any tools with him. No testers.
the horn was working. He beeped it for me over the phone. Starter was not working.
We discussed the wires to the injection harness, etc and I gave him hints at what locations were most likely to have damaged/broken a wire.
He should be home by now.
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Yes , home about 20 minutes . A few thoughts before taking a shower and a nap .
First , I am truly grateful to be a part of this group , you guys are the best ;-T
Second , remind me to always carry that cheap meter I bought for this purpose :-[
Third , how many supposed hard core bikers will sleep on the ground next to their bike because she is having a "moment" Got maybe 30 minutes sleep , broke out the tools again , and stayed at it until she was happy .
More later about what the issue was , Doug , David , Roy , Chuckie , thanks for being so helpful , and thanks for all of the moral support from everyone , well , except for you Norm ::) Oh , and thanks Rocker for posting this , and to the offers of rescue , I may be stubborn , but it is great to know that we are never truly stranded ;-T
Dusty
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Glad you made it home buddy, get 'cha a shower and a little nappy ;)
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Glad you made it home buddy, get 'cha a shower and a little nappy ;)
:+1
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Roy it will be interesting to me as well which wire. He described it as being under the headstock. When he is a better place to do so maybe we can get identification and maybe confirm duplication by phsically breaking that connection. Would you concur with my conclusion referencing the loss of regulator reference voltage or was that too big a jump. This illustrates my experience with gremlins in general BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU DISTURB IN AN ATTEMPT TO RECTIFY A SITUATION. Often in my experience this causes multiple issues that complicate the original situation. I often ignore this advice and frequently pay the price.
Yes, I think you were right on the money however I don't think he had a flat battery it wouldn't crank because fuse 3 had no juice. My guess is the broken wire was from the switch that supplies fuse 3 & 4
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Dusty did not have any tools with him. No testers.
the horn was working. He beeped it for me over the phone. Starter was not working.
We discussed the wires to the injection harness, etc and I gave him hints at what locations were most likely to have damaged/broken a wire.
He should be home by now.
His wiring must be a little different, on mine fuse 3 supplies both Horn and Start relays
This should be a lesson to us all, always carry a tester as simple as a light on a couple of wires is all you need a 12 Volt LED is good because it won't break so easy. I am guilty there as well but I will put one in my toolbox tonight.
Throw away all those bloody 4 pin relays
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I was following along on a wire map while we were chatting about it. I was finding differences between my map and his wires as were talked.
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Dusty on the way home ;D
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag65/guzzistajohn/braaaaap_zpswstfljqo.jpg) (http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/guzzistajohn/media/braaaaap_zpswstfljqo.jpg.html)
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Dusty on the way home ;D
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag65/guzzistajohn/braaaaap_zpswstfljqo.jpg) (http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/guzzistajohn/media/braaaaap_zpswstfljqo.jpg.html)
That's actually a good pic of me :D
Dusty
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All's well the ends............... .
glad you made it safe.
Mark
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So was it the relays?
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So far he's mum on that. I'm betting he disconnected something while troubleshooting a relay and messed up getting it back together, probably because there was an attorney involved (Hagan content ;D ).
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Nah! It was just Dusty applying BMW logic to a Moto Guzzi. Won't work .... totally incompatible. :D
Glad you made it home Dusty!
Bob
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A successful outcome! This is a great group of people. Kudos to everyone who helped! :BEER:
:+1
I love this board. Dusty, glad you and the bike made it home OK.
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We all appreciate the opportunity to call someone stuck by the side of the road to laugh at him for being stranded. It lets them know how much we care. ;-T
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Remember the old days when you were just stuck beside the road? Ain't technology great? Thanks algore!
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So far he's mum on that. I'm betting he disconnected something while troubleshooting a relay and messed up getting it back together, probably because there was an attorney involved (Hagan content ;D ).
Someone may have taken his picture so he is hiding out.
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Latest is that the wire to pin4 of the ignition switch had been spliced by the PO and let go. He sorted that out, got the 4/5-pin relay mismatch under control and went on his merry way.
The lesson is that regardless of how far from home you plan to break down, always carry something to test wires with -- test light, multimeter -- something -- and some standard spares and a basic toolkit. Everyone has room on board for that.
Happy ending here, anyway. ;-T
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The lesson is that regardless of how far from home you plan to break down, always carry something to test wires with -- test light, multimeter -- something -- and some standard spares and a basic toolkit. Everyone has room on board for that.
Happy ending here, anyway. ;-T
The Breva came with quite a comprehensive tool kit. On top of that I carry a small compressor, pipe tongs to ensure the sump plug is TIGHT ::), dog turd type tire repair kit, 250ml of oil (small block = small sump) fuses and spare spark plug. Your mention of the test meter RK is a good one. I have a smallish digital one, and after your suggestion and Dusty's wee escapade it will be a permanent feature of my tool kit.
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Latest is that the wire to pin4 of the ignition switch had been spliced by the PO and let go. He sorted that out, got the 4/5-pin relay mismatch under control and went on his merry way.
The lesson is that regardless of how far from home you plan to break down, always carry something to test wires with -- test light, multimeter -- something -- and some standard spares and a basic toolkit. Everyone has room on board for that.
Happy ending here, anyway. ;-T
I don't remember splicing into that wire. Not saying I didn't....just don't remember!
Sorry that it caused Dusty problems.
Jeff
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Glad you got it figured out. Perserverance really does come in handy! :)
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I don't remember splicing into that wire. Not saying I didn't....just don't remember!
Sorry that it caused Dusty problems.
Jeff
Jeff , that would be the PO before you . I still love this bike , and the fact that it started such a great friendship . Besides , even if it was you , I've ridden "OUR" old girl several miles now with very few problems and it still goes like the wind ;-T Sorry , you can't have her back ;D
Yes , it seems as though the ECU and 'lectric petcock were not powering up , will do some more research for future reference . Thanks guys , and yes O , we all love this forum ;-T
Dusty
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I don't remember splicing into that wire. Not saying I didn't....just don't remember!
Sorry that it caused Dusty problems.
Jeff
To be completely accurate, Dusty didn't say it was the PO. He said it had previously been done. The word was mine, not his.