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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ratguzzi on May 17, 2015, 06:43:02 PM
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Could a standard ECU be programed to do ignition only? To block all fuel injection and only do ignition with a typical older Guzzi advance curve.
So a late model motor could be used with carbs.
JB
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Sure. The ECU doesn't know if there's injectors there or not. Just leave the fuel map as it is.
But why? Why would you want to use carbs over injection? Don't tell me they're better, because they're not.
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Do you know ANY fuel injected Guzzi that even comes close to carburated fuel mileage?
My 98 EV motor with carbs and points in it got an easy 50mpg, with an 8/33 final drive would pull smooth as silk from 30mph up in fifth gear with NO hiccups, exhaust popping, etc.
From reflashes to power commanders, been there. If the ECU/injection runs smooth, you are in the low 30s mpg. If it burps and coughs, maybe low 40s max.
JB
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While JB is on target there I think the fuelies make more power. I would agree that the old carb bikes ran "better", easier to drive slow in particular. Can't say the Norge is all that great fuel-wise except when the revs and power are way up the range.
Now if my Eldo could stop like a Norge............. ;D
Sorry for the hijack!
Hunter
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EFI should match carb mileage easily, though in many cases manufacturers take the opportunity to tune for more peak power at the same time they convert to EFI and that muddies the water.
Fwiw, my V7 regularly gets 48-55 mpg on E10.
But my B11 and Jackal both tended to get more like 40 most of the time (probably because of my right wrist).
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I, too, wish we could go back to carburetors. I know it will never happen, but I am really tired of herky-jerky, on-off throttle control at slow speed. My Ducati was the worst, but my Norge is not a lot better. I don't care about fuel economy as much as smooth ride ability.
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This will fix your FI woes, enough for 2 Guzzis!
http://store.schnitzracing.com/lectron-44mm-carburetors-w-power-jets/?gclid=CNDe-_qDysUCFQQWHwodK0kAcg
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I guess I understand why EFI throttle might have a point that is very on/off, but after owning more than half a dozen EFI bikes and riding a ton more I have no complaints. Seriously there's nothing on/off about the throttle input that can't be tamed with some clutch and throttle control.
Every single one of them started quicker and more dependably then even brand new carbureted bikes.
They've almost all ran flawlessly, maybe my B11 and the chronic pinging problem being the exception, but that was cured with a reflash.
I have no problem working on carbs, but have never found anything that really made easier or more reliable.
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Like they say, just don't connect the injector and fuel pump stuff. You can pull the fuel pump relay and fuse. I'd leave the temp sensors because they affect timing. Also be careful to maintain good tank venting. Gravity flow needs are different than pump needs.
On the tangent -- my Convert's economy didn't change with efi, but the engine was bigger.
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My last tank of gas in the Stelvio gave me a bit over 41 mpg. That was all Interstate riding so I'd say an average of 70 mph and the ambient temp was in the low 80s. I was fully loaded after a camping trip and had the hard bags fitted. With the 8.5 gal tank I am not filling every 75-100 miles and thus I have confidence in the mileage calculation from a single tank on that 1400 mile trip. Colder temps = lower mpg.
I'd never want to go back to carbs, if for no other reason than being able to ride from sea level to 11,000 ft without any concern for the change in altitude. Been there and done that.
Peter Y.
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Oh fond memories of carbs, sticking slides, changing jets, leaky gaskets, fondling float levels, rebuild kits, ethanol sludge removal, syncing impossibilities, manual chokes, and air leaks. No thanks :beat_horse
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Throttle by wire is coming next to Guzzi and very soon.
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Already here, cali 14
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I guess my point is we have all these mapping wizards but no one has been able to map a V11 to get the same smoothness and economy of a nice pair of 36mm round bores.
My carburated EV motor will be back on the road soon in a 67 V700 frame. I would love any mapper to ride it and challenge them to map a fuelie to be as smooth and easily bust out 50mpg.
Hands down, I prefer an injected motor over carbs, just don't understand why they can't be tuned better.
JB
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I think it has to do with the ecu capabilities, You wont find smoother throttle response than than the cali 14. Other than the idle fueling which I understand was intentional, only god knows why. Also others like bmw and triumph have extremely well performing F.I.
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Our Jackal and my old EV get high '40s all the time. The new Scouts are getting 50-but that's not trying to burn up tires..
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Ah, Triumph. That is true. I rode my wife's Bonnie (2013) back to back with my Norge today. That Bonnie is incredibly smooth (and so was my 2014 Thruxton). Absolutely no throttle snatchiness at low speed. The Norge is on-off at low speed, bucking and lurching. I guess the British engineers are onto something.
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My carbed 1994 California generally got around 40MPG. Riding style and twisting the fun handle make it better or worse.
I played with the jetting to try to get it better. No luck.
My injected 2004 EV generally gets around 40MPG. Riding style and twisting the fun handle make it better or worse.
I played with the fuel map to try get get better. No luck.
My Centauro generally got around 38MPG. I once got 55MPG while following a poky friend with a sidecar.
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My belief, backed up by research, is that most of the high consumption woes, especially on the 2V big blocks, are down to inaccurate input from the engine temperature sensor. This can be addressed, but not cured absolutely, by ensuring the sensor is getting an accurate reading and coupling this with a better map.
All of that will fall on deaf ears though so it's probably not worth pursuing. Those who like carbs are welcome to them. I saw the light a few years ago and wouldn't go back for all the tea in China! Nasty, smelly things..... :D
Pete
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So you don't like fuel injection because of fuel economy?. Hmm.
..excuse me...Bwahahahahahah a!. Ahem. Got that off my chest.
The carby is a pretty clever device for what it does. But it cannot compete with well setup fuel injection. No amount of Luddite grunting and pointing will convince me. Got a FI bike that's thirsty? Poorly tuned or setup. Got an FI bike with jerky on/off throttle. Poorly mapped. Got a carby bike that runs great at sea level? Ride it up to 11000 feet and think again. Pete Y nailed it. Lucian gets it. Roper is on team FI.
Make no mistake, the Guzzi factory mapping is rubbish. FI is not the bugbear of crappy running. It's the application, not the technology.
"But my 8V is super thirsty". It's not the fuel injection, it's the head design. A 2V will always get better fuel economy if properly tuned. Sure, a properly mapped 8V will give you better torque and power (yes, better torque. No, the 2V does not have more low-down torque, it's just better mapped from the factory), but you must suffer the fuel usage too.
I'd put my Griso up against any carbed 2V big block. It is so smooth you'd wet yourself. Seriously. Yes, it's custom mapped. By me. But you won't get 50mpg. Not on my bike.
Now you can map a FI Guzzi for economy, but Joe The Dyno Guy won't do it. Most of the 'Wizards' seem to think most FI bikes need more fuel. Wrong. I've seen a few maps from the gurus, and quite frankly they're laughable. They modify the main fuel map, sometimes the delta, often the ignition map, but they don't go near the correction tables. This is where the possibility of making a superb map awaits. You can tweak for changes in temperature (both air and engine), air pressure, acceleration, torque, traction, gear. Wow! What can you do with a carb? Change the jet, change the float level, change the clip height. Sigh.
Fuel injection. Love it.
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I'd put my Griso up against any carbed 2V big block.
..excuse me...Bwahahahahahah a!.
Game on Ringo, $5K of mine, 5K of yours, bets accepted from forum
My rules
Min 250 miles, public sealed or dirt roads, racetrack, forest trails, wherever, rain or shine
Miles travelled in van do not count
I think the point JB has made is more range than economy, last Griso I saw (with 12 or so other bikes) was pushing it after 260KM (150 add miles)
Traffic light wonder yours may be, some of us ride further.
BUT completely on topic, I do get beaten in economy game by well tuned 2V and 4V per cyl EFI bikes, just haven't seen an EFI Guzzi that does it, engine can't become more inefficient, is only the mapping shirley
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Gee, it's easy to take a quote out of context and make stuff up. Since you seem to do it all the time, I'm not going to bother with you anymore. Back on the ignore list for you, troll.
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The low revs smoothness is partly a mapping thing, and maybe a part in it lies in that with low revs, the opening from the butterfly is very small, giving a tiny opening, and there the air and fuel don't mix that well. The older marelli efi had the injector near the butterfly, new models have the injector near the head, that will be for a reason.
The efi that guzzi uses on all but the 8v, originates from 1990. The cali 1400 and one TB v7 have a fundamental different system, with map sensor.
Efficiency isn't top priority with a small manufacturer. First it should pass regulations, the it should drive as good as it goes, and after that, if there is time the might give any attention to economy.
I don't know why multiple Italian makes start using other then Marelli, but I see it happen more and more.
And Euro4 is coming, all new models from 2016 on should pass, not only more stringent emissions, but also ABS, noise and some more things. And in 2017 this is also for older models that are still produced. Thats what Piaggio hast to think about and act now.
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Ah, Triumph. That is true. I rode my wife's Bonnie (2013) back to back with my Norge today. That Bonnie is incredibly smooth (and so was my 2014 Thruxton). Absolutely no throttle snatchiness at low speed. The Norge is on-off at low speed, bucking and lurching. I guess the British engineers are onto something.
My Triumph 1050 Tiger Sport gives no better fuel consumption or throttle response than my 1200 2v Sport. I admit the Guzzi's mapping has been set up by myself but if I could get the Guzzi twenty more horses there would be no contest if I had to sell one of them.
I think it is more difficult to get the FI right on a air cooled motor due to the engine temperature fluctuations and if I was brave enough I would like to try running my 2v motor without the inputs from the various sensors, thus getting back to a more carb based set up. But since it is running sweat with the edits I have done the incentive isn't really there.
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This will fix your FI woes, enough for 2 Guzzis!
http://store.schnitzracing.com/lectron-44mm-carburetors-w-power-jets/?gclid=CNDe-_qDysUCFQQWHwodK0kAcg
UGG, Lectron carbs, the idle circuit will be correct about 2 days a year... Great, if you are going to the salt flats...
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... inaccurate input from the engine temperature sensor....
....I think it is more difficult to get the FI right on a air cooled motor due to the engine temperature fluctuations....
Hmmm. There's a bit of a theme developing there. And I agree. This may be the biggest issue affecting fuel economy on an otherwise well-tuned stock engine.
Throttle "snatchiness" at lower RPMs is a different issue, IMHO. I wonder if it is due more to air leaks around the seals in the throttle bodies (sure helped mine), combined with a need to precisely tune the throttle bodies and the TPS. And then there is the need to precisely tune the air-fuel ratio at idle (on those ECUs where it can be adjusted). But these things are not as simple as changing jets in carbs, so they are much more difficult to do in your garage at home.
Bill
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What could be easier than plugging in a laptop and loading a proper map? Still a little trial and error, but a lot less messy. Syncing way easier with the right tool too. And once it's right your done pretty much for good. With this ethanol shit , I could care less if I ever see another carb bowl full of monkey spunk. As for mileage there are plenty of 750 cc bikes that will get 50 plus a gallon, but do you really want to tour on one two up? I suppose if gas goes up to $5 a gallon I may feel different, but for now I'm happy the 35 -4o mpg and the performance of an 8v.
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Some of it might have to do with electronics vs jets in that carbs are mechanical things and something you can put your hands to and swap out, change or whatever. So long as you're in the same place most of the time, they are not all that difficult to get spot on and to get running smoothly. The ECU stuff is like voodoo to a lot of people, especially since that can't just buy a kit and try different things.
Messing with jets? Sure, why not. Mess with a map? Where to start and goof it up and go where from there?
I too like FI because you take along trip, don't worry about altitude changes but the real deal is the map support you get right here. Without it, how many of us would be pissing in the wind and dealing with less than mediocre factory maps?
I can see where he's coming from.
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I don't get the carbs v FI animosity... some very valid points from some very knowledgeable people from both sides of the debate on this page.
personally, I find it an undeniable positive of FI to not always be dealing with (ie spilling and breathing) petrol, measuring pump spray flow, watching brand new floats fill with fuel etc.
But I also find it completely unacceptable that motorbikes are sold in such an ugly state of tune as is the case with a whole generation of guzzi FI bikes.
I've tuned the hell out of my CalVin, shared the maps with a few members on here, and its definitely better, but I can't say I'm fully satisfied.
I know its down to emissions etc, but I really think the factory should do better with their maps. A proper factory map would obviously be the best of all possible worlds.
Rant over. But bright blue headers everywhere annoy me. And the stock Calvin map is truly atrocious!!!!
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I played my map at the keno table and won.
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I don't get the carbs v FI animosity... some very valid points from some very knowledgeable people from both sides of the debate on this page.
personally, I find it an undeniable positive of FI to not always be dealing with (ie spilling and breathing) petrol, measuring pump spray flow, watching brand new floats fill with fuel etc.
But I also find it completely unacceptable that motorbikes are sold in such an ugly state of tune as is the case with a whole generation of guzzi FI bikes.
I've tuned the hell out of my CalVin, shared the maps with a few members on here, and its definitely better, but I can't say I'm fully satisfied.
I know its down to emissions etc, but I really think the factory should do better with their maps. A proper factory map would obviously be the best of all possible worlds.
Rant over. But bright blue headers everywhere annoy me. And the stock Calvin map is truly atrocious!!!!
And I think that's full circle, what JB said in first place, for him it is easier and quicker to fit carbs, definitely was for me too
But not for a minute do I believe mapping EFI as good as carbs is impossible, certainly cars and other bikes have been sorted years ago.
Hope you get yours sussed and prove the point, get it running well and hopefully use less fuel doing so.
If it is the engine temp sensor that causes all the problems, as Pete says, fudging it to stay in "hot" mode may be simple answer with drawback of carb type cold running, my bike tells me when it's cold, I don't see that as issue, warm it up gently before giving it berries.
Mechanical switch to cold map just to start it ? Just like enrichener on carbs. Mode in current speak
See you in UK soon
MH
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How many of us could do much more with guzzidiag than load a map someone else graciously contributed? I bet not many.
A carb? Buy a kit, try it out, follow a mechanical process and there is always a clear path to return. The part of loading a map isn't difficult, it is the chance that some errant electronic mess over gets in the way and you are finished. Maybe that isn't possible and working with IT for a while where peeps run enterprise data centers I know that electronics aren't AI out to get you, how many truly trust that the ECU isn't their answer?
When someone can tune their carb'd bike to run as good as they want and then get faced with an FI bike that just won't and even when "tuned" is more of a band-aid rather than a proper design, it's hard to convince them Fi is all that much better.
When it comes to MG bikes, how after so long can they not get it right from the factory? It would be one thing is one of them came out all fully baked but so far, which one is even close?
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The days of the carb wiz are over, and we're entering the era of the electron. Accept it.
Soon all new bikes will be ride-by-wire, and overcoming the requirements of microprocessor controlled 'demand centres' will be even trickier.
You can't brick an ECU with GuzziDiag. Believe me, I've tried. The good thing is if your latest map is a fizzer, go back one and try again. It takes 3 minutes to flash a map.
Yes, Guzzi maps are shite. At least some of us are willing to help, instead of just bitching.
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It always elicits a sardonic groan from me whenever someone expresses or merely hints at a preference for a thing on the internet and quicker than frig, another individual interprets it as an attack on their personal and self defined contrasting preferences. I see this daily on firearms forums, IMDB and other vehicle specialty forums to which I belong.
I was interested in finding whether or not the ECU would hiccup without feedback from things like TPSs and the like but no - it becomes the usual: "only a troglodyte would think other than I do!" and arguments supporting the positions.
I like both systems, I'm working on my second and third Holley TBI (self-learning) now in place of 4 bbls - Scout 345, IHC 392 and GMC 396 - mostly for the ability to let them sit as I do and that I work all of them from here in Phoenix up to nearly 8,000 feet plus. I can still in a pinch plant a mothballed carb on them in 40 minutes if it comes to that, ever.
Guzzis? I'd rather have the carbs and point of fact, a single one eventually.
Fuel feeds by gravity - no pumps to fail or blow lines off nor hidden pumps and sundry bits tucked in a "ship-in-a-bottle" fashion within the tank. None of the fueling band-aides as coping with my Calvin has presented and no cause for me to learn technology I'm simply not interested in in the form of lap-top tweaking. My experience with carbs is that I never touch them once either factory settings are confirmed or as in the case of my Spot 1100, the best known alternative is effected. In its case, the correction was in fact alternative jetting tied to the bars from the factory. No leaks - no tweaks since 95. Computers have made fueling eminently easier for me in one aspect - alternative settings are nearly always known and a couple clicks away on the internet.
I like carbs on bikes... all: gravity, vacuum, restriction and velocity. Much like a world of add, subtract, multiply and divide while avoiding the mental fogs of trigonometry and her even uglier sisters.
For everyone that says it's all sausages and flowers to simply plug in a computer - I say the same about repairs effected with ball point pen components and leatherman tools when it becomes necessary. I'm glad there are folks out there supporting modern technology and its manipulation by the masses - just don't take other's outlook that in fact for us, carbs are a simpler, more easily understood and happily coped with alternative.
I figure as noted above that once Geese are water cooled the Fi glitches will disappear and I too will be happy with it.
Push the fuel - pull the fuel? They're just different ways to do the same thing, not lifestyle attacks.
Todd.
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Another Luddite who cant face reality. Carbs are history. I don't care whether you think I'm attacking your lifestyle or not. You're the same as that lot who don't like the new Guzzi's. You're irrelevant. The 'old' Guzzi's aren't coming back. Carbs aren't coming back. Get over it.
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How many of us could do much more with guzzidiag than load a map someone else graciously contributed? I bet not many.
A carb? Buy a kit, try it out, follow a mechanical process and there is always a clear path to return.
When someone can tune their carb'd bike to run as good as they want
We made Guzzidiag nearly two years ago, I'v e seen more people busy with it here then talk about jets. It's new for all of us, and we are learning, and the aim is that a lot more people learn and understand what is happening. Even if you never touch a map, you can learn from it. You can learn why things are as they are, what to expect, and what isn't perfect.
Yeh right, some people put in another jet, but who really understands carbs here?
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Very few Paul. The usual answer given to any carb problem is to go bigger on main which is about as useful as milking the tits on a bull.
Pete
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I can see both sides of the argument. FI is certainly a step forward when it comes to tuning but doesn't seem to improve fuel consumption or throttle response greatly.
With FI now the norm regulators have been able to tighten further emission standards thus making it even more difficult to get an air cooled engine to perform in the way it did with carbs.
I know some of us can play the Guzzidiag fiddle well but for others it must be frustrating when the jerkiness of FI becomes annoying.
The possible way forward for Guzzi is to have switchable mapping like other manufacturers rather than trying to produce one map to suit the worldwide customer base.
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Another Luddite who cant face reality. Carbs are history. I don't care whether you think I'm attacking your lifestyle or not. You're the same as that lot who don't like the new Guzzi's. You're irrelevant. The 'old' Guzzi's aren't coming back. Carbs aren't coming back. Get over it.
Here's exactly what I was saying. Fella signs on looking to poke folks in the eye. Bug is searching for a way to twist a post to suit a pre-conceived argument. Ad Hominem, thy name is insec.. er, beetle
No one's expecting nor for that matter - as far as I know - pining for a return to carbs on manufactured bikes. Most simply want Fi to work without tweaks excepting performance increases. Others like the notion of cobbing carbs onto modern bikes for personal experience reasons.
I understand your perception of "irrelevant" as regards the march of design and technology if I(we) were actually expecting retroactive design/manufacturing. We're not, just many of us don't care to take on the new tech just to commute/tour with confidence.
I applaude and enjoy a well thought out Fi as well as the modern takes on ignition and valve actuation - complexity be damned - I just want it to work to the point that I don't need to be involved in post manufacturing development when the product is sold to me at full consumer pop. If I need to invest time and money in work or resources just to get it to behave - I expect a serious consideration at buy-in.
To date, 100% of the problems I've had with ECU/FI... fueling/ignition has been 3 MGs. This after untold mechanically/electronically fuel injected vehicles from the 70's till today. Not one single poorly presented product (for me) other than the Guzzis and that even includes a couple three 5.7 Olds diesels.
Todd.
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^ I agree. Fortunately, I got my new Norge for several thousand off list. Plus I received another couple thousand from my insurance company for a minor tip over in my driveway (a few scratches, almost all of which are invisible to my old eyes). So, I suppose I have a bit of financial room to wiggle.
Still, it would be nice not to have to fiddle with a new bike just to get it to run smoothly while commuting.
(Our two new Triumphs have run very smoothly from day one, no fiddling required.)
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But how many of these supposed EFI problems are REAL? And how many of those are self-inflicted?
I mean it seems like every guy you talk to starts from the assumed position that every bike is too lean from the factory when in fact many parts of the map are rich. And the lean points may be hotter than how carbs were tuned (and that's on purpose), but is the heat an actual problem to the metal and oil of the bike or just a potential annoyance to the rider.
And throttle snatchyness, or surging? I've heard reports about both on other's bikes that I've also owned similar models, but not experienced it.
Was it something different about their bike? Or was it misperception of something else?
Was it really the EFI and not a bad cable adjustment?
And then people open air boxes, and change exhausts and how many blame problems on the EFI?
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We made Guzzidiag nearly two years ago, I'v e seen more people busy with it here then talk about jets. It's new for all of us, and we are learning, and the aim is that a lot more people learn and understand what is happening. Even if you never touch a map, you can learn from it. You can learn why things are as they are, what to expect, and what isn't perfect.
Yeh right, some people put in another jet, but who really understands carbs here?
Don't take me wrong, I like FI but I can just see the other side of the equation, where Ratguzzi is coming from and understand why some people prefer a carb over FI. Me? I'd rather not have to concern myself with much of it unless it needs attending to. I like riding not wrenching so there FI rules for me.
What is true though is that the more electronics become part of the motorcycle in general, the greater the chance the typical rider won't be able to do much more than wait for the tow truck to take it into the dealer. That might not apply to loading a new map but I think it does apply to just about everything else.
Perhaps the expectations are out of sync with the reality and there is only so much FI can do yet slight popping drives some people crazy even as we all know by now, it does no harm and isn't a performance issue.
I'll gladly load a new Map for the Norge 8v, not because I'm unhappy with current running but because its interesting to see the changes. One thing for sure, never was there a time when getting a new jet kit was big smile, rip open the box because it was going to be fun time. Load up a new map and instant gratification, hopefully and as you said, if not go back. That isn't something easily done with carbs no matter what.
Now about that oil thread... :BEER:
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Yeh right, some people put in another jet, but who really understands carbs here?
I *think* I know a fair amount about them.. after all, I've been dealing with them for over 50 years on airplanes, cars, and bikes.
I've still not ridden an injected Guzzi that was as smooth as well set up carbs. It's a subtle thing, like digital compared to analog music, but injection feels harsh for lack of a better word.. to me. This is especially true right off idle, and I'm only guessing that the TPS maybe isn't as accurate at low mv settings? Dunno. Now, my 07 Norge was downright snatchy down low, but that was before Guzzidiag and better maps were available.
It's certainly nothing worth arguing over, though.. ;D
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It took me a long time to get my Stelvio set up so that I can roll on from a closed throttle in stop and go traffic without having to use the clutch. So while I appreciate the wonderful theoretical possibilities of FI, all those people who say that carbs were smoother do have a point (I'm not talking about efficiency or fuel economy). My T3 is so smooth from such low revs, it's a joy in traffic.
But I wonder if it's just a question of fueling. I used to have an R100R about 15 years ago, but when I rode a friend's R90S I was amazed how much more relaxed his bike was. Both had carbs, but I believe mine had a 40% lighter clutch and flywheel combination. Modern riders (and magazines!) put a lot of value on acceleration figures and you don't find so many heavy flywheels anymore. It depends on what you like, but maybe that's a pity.
So maybe it's not only carbs vs FI, but the whole way older bikes used to be built?
Ah, the good old days! ☺
John
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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You're touching on something that bothers me about these discussions -- the comparativeness of the technologies. If we all had the same bike and the only difference was the efi/carb variation, would the performance and economy statements still be 'true'? Can we expect a carbbed 750cc ambo with its relatively heavy flywheel and 4-speed to perform the same as an 1100cc Jackal with a 5-speed and efi and v/v?
If we made a list of the things a carb does v the things efi does, the mechanisms by which they are dialed in and the parts involved, I think I could show that they are the same, but different. In my mind I don't see the differences. They are just different ways of doing the same things.
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^ "Relaxed" is exactly what I want when riding around town. No bucking or lurching, no riding the clutch, no need to maintain high revs...
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To date, 100% of the problems I've had with ECU/FI... fueling/ignition has been 3 MGs. This after untold mechanically/electronically fuel injected vehicles from the 70's till today. Not one single poorly presented product (for me) other than the Guzzis and that even includes a couple three 5.7 Olds diesels.
Todd,
I agree with you 100%. Guzzi has a bad rep when it comes to FI. Pardon me if I feel that Guzzi's mapping issues should not be turned into a FI hate-fest. As per usual, this thread has gone off track. This forum is rife with thread drift.
What got my goat was the ridiculous belief that carbs have better fuel economy than FI. Bullocks! Carbs can be made to run rich just like FI. FI can be tweaked to get excellent economy. Some of the guys using my maps in their Griso's are reporting as much as 49 mpg. So, no, carbs are not better than FI. It's utter rubbish.
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Todd,
I agree with you 100%. Guzzi has a bad rep when it comes to FI. Pardon me if I feel that Guzzi's mapping issues should not be turned into a FI hate-fest. As per usual, this thread has gone off track. This forum is rife with thread drift.
What got my goat was the ridiculous belief that carbs have better fuel economy than FI. Bullocks! Carbs can be made to run rich just like FI. FI can be tweaked to get excellent economy. Some of the guys using my maps in their Griso's are reporting as much as 49 mpg. So, no, carbs are not better than FI. It's utter rubbish.
Really? Most injected V11 EV Guzzis are low 40s, a couple claim mid 40s. Many are in the 30s. You have the rarest at 49.
I started this post and I prefer FI over carbs, I agree they are better, no argument there but I haven't ridden an FI yet that could pull smooth as silk in 5th at 30mph up to speed and still get 50+ mpg consistently as my EV motor in my raT-3 that I switched to 36mm carbs. And with a very accurate speedo. Plus, two twists of the throttle, hit the starter and I am am up and running.
I am building a traveling Guzzi right now and I want the same 50 mpg my carbed EV motor got, if it can be mapped and run as silky smooth with injection, I will be there immediately.
JB
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But how many of these supposed EFI problems are REAL? And how many of those are self-inflicted?
I mean it seems like every guy you talk to starts from the assumed position that every bike is too lean from the factory when in fact many parts of the map are rich. And the lean points may be hotter than how carbs were tuned (and that's on purpose), but is the heat an actual problem to the metal and oil of the bike or just a potential annoyance to the rider.
And throttle snatchyness, or surging? I've heard reports about both on other's bikes that I've also owned similar models, but not experienced it.
Was it something different about their bike? Or was it misperception of something else?
Was it really the EFI and not a bad cable adjustment?
And then people open air boxes, and change exhausts and how many blame problems on the EFI?
:+1
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But how many of these supposed EFI problems are REAL? And how many of those are self-inflicted?
As per usual, the voice of reason.
I mean it seems like every guy you talk to starts from the assumed position that every bike is too lean from the factory when in fact many parts of the map are rich. And the lean points may be hotter than how carbs were tuned (and that's on purpose), but is the heat an actual problem to the metal and oil of the bike or just a potential annoyance to the rider.
I think I love you. The maps are built to meet Euro3 (or whatever the latest standard is), and that means meeting emissions. So that means running at stoic and the how the bike feels to the rider be damned. Heat is pretty good for the oil when it's hovering around 100C (212F), but the rider might cry boo-hoo.
And throttle snatchyness, or surging? I've heard reports about both on other's bikes that I've also owned similar models, but not experienced it.
Was it something different about their bike? Or was it misperception of something else?
Was it really the EFI and not a bad cable adjustment?
And then people open air boxes, and change exhausts and how many blame problems on the EFI?
Aye. The number of people who screeched to me about how crap their FI Guzzi rides only to tell me their throttle cables have a heap of slack, the throtte bodies aren't balanced, they have pulled the lid off their airbox, stuck in a rock strainer filter and have a massively loud open exhaust is beyond a joke.
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There is also the fact that a large number of FI bikes simply aren't set up right.
Even before I became a convert to the wonders of remapping I would find that the vast majority of bikes that had been serviced elsewhere, especially W5AM equipped machines would be set up completely wrong! Even now, nine years after Guzzi started using the W5AM I'm still getting bikes coming in that have never had the TB's balanced correctly or various bits that shouldn't be fiddled with have been fiddled with.
You can't blame anything to do with the bike for poor running if it isn't tuned properly. End of story. The same is just as true for a bike with points and carburetors.
Pete
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Really? Most injected V11 EV Guzzis are low 40s, a couple claim mid 40s. Many are in the 30s. You have the rarest at 49.
Really. The 8V head design means it will never be able run as economically as a 2V head and still maintain smoothness. I could make one get 60mpg, but it would be a bitch to ride.
I started this post and I prefer FI over carbs, I agree they are better, no argument there but I haven't ridden an FI yet that could pull smooth as silk in 5th at 30mph up to speed and still get 50+ mpg consistently as my EV motor in my raT-3 that I switched to 36mm carbs. And with a very accurate speedo. Plus, two twists of the throttle, hit the starter and I am am up and running.
My Griso will pull as smooth as silk from 30mph in 5th, but it would not get 50mpg. It's taken me a long time and I'm quite anal about my personal map, but you can't have both with the 8V.
I am building a traveling Guzzi right now and I want the same 50 mpg my carbed EV motor got, if it can be mapped and run as silky smooth with injection, I will be there immediately.
JB
I'd like to help, but I'd need access to your bike for a week or so. Since I'm across the bloody big pond, no can do. If your willing to do some AFR logging and have the time, I could probably get you what you want.
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(snipped)
Really. The 8V head design means it will never be able run as economically as a 2V head...
(snipped)
Is this due to the 8V head moving so much more air that it takes extra fuel to make a stable/smooth burn? If so, I'm happy to pay for extra fuel for my 8V engine. Not a problem.
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Yep. The large valve overlap and head design allows the incoming charge to transit the combustion chamber mostly unmolested.
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quote
I am building a traveling Guzzi right now and I want the same 50 mpg my carbed EV motor got, if it can be mapped and run as silky smooth with injection, I will be there immediately.
JB
I'd like to help, but I'd need access to your bike for a week or so. Since I'm across the bloody big pond, no can do. If your willing to do some AFR logging and have the time, I could probably get you what you want.
Slightly contradicts
My belief, backed up by research, is that most of the high consumption woes, especially on the 2V big blocks, are down to inaccurate input from the engine temperature sensor. This can be addressed, but not cured absolutely, by ensuring the sensor is getting an accurate reading and coupling this with a better map.
Pete
But if it can be done, sounds like JB wants in
He is in a position to judge with 2 same engines
1 EFI , 1 carbed
No-one else's opinion is relevant, his apple with his other apple. His right wrist
I look forward to result, so do others I'm sure.
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If this is supposed to be an 'all things being equal' comparison of economy with respect to carbs v injection, the issue gets muddied with 2v v 4v, small, medium, large valves, displacement, final ratios, etc. For an equal comparison you need to look at the same platform one way and the other. So comparing an 850t to a griso isn't really fair. JB's got an opportunity to document apples and apples.
Also, there are more things a mfgr needs to consider than the optimum fuel economy or perfect transitions for every throttle opening. Sometimes things like the epa get in the way.
carry on
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I have a bias. I have ridden close to 600, 000 miles carburated and only 150, 000 injected on Guzzis.
Fuel injection rocks on wrist response but carburated wins on real world performance. Not quarter mile, riding thru life performance. Based on my such little experience.
JB
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Who's talking about quarter mile performance or outright power? Not me. There's a nitwit or two who are like stuck records, blinded by their ignorance and ego, however, their hysterical ravings don't make a lick of difference.
JB, you and I will have to agree to disagree.
End.
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Who's talking about quarter mile performance or outright power? Not me. There's a nitwit or two who are like stuck records, blinded by their ignorance and ego, however, their hysterical ravings don't make a lick of difference.
JB, you and I will have to agree to disagree.
End.
I am not sure I understand the disagreement. I prefer fuel injection. Do we disagree on that? I only wish I could get carburated smoothness and economy.
I am not a retard. Fuel, ratio, etc. Carbs with tapered needles offer a wide range of exacting ratios per the taper and throttle depth. Why can't modern ecus duplicate this?
Just asking is all.
Please be careful of the mirror when you utter "nitwit"!!
Slow down and explain to me why a ECU can't be programmed to duplicate a carburetor.
You forget that I PREFER injection. Just wish it could be dialed in to work as smoothly as carbs and be mpg friendly. Like we had 30 years ago,
Again, I PREFER fuel injection!
I don't want to disagree!
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In going through this thread I'm wondering if the design of the 8v Guzzi simply can't be made to run with all the attributes commonly wanted. Prior to my 8V Norge, everything but a few were carb'd, the few remainder had FI.
My V-Strom DL1000 was notorious for ECU/fueling problems, so much so that Suzuki was replacing the ECUs under warranty and beyond because maps getting loaded couldn't fix the problems they had, it took a new ECU. Luckily, Suzuki provided me with a new ECU which transformed the bike into something usable.
I can't really complain about the Norge 8V, even as it came fresh from the dealer, it ran well with only a hint of reluctance to rev, more like it had resistance in a throttle cable sort of thing. The last map I got here cleaned that up so either my standards aren't as high as others other I don't know the difference.
My 8V Norge runs well, is plenty smooth and while the throttle seems more sensitive than the factory map, even idle up around town isn't a snatchy thing. Maybe my bike is a fluke?
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Wonder why the problem is with bikes. I never hear anyone complain about their car`s FI or having to get a new map or anything for it. I vaguely remember cars with 4 barrel carbs and they were simply awful. Startups in cold weather were a bitch at times, with flooding it out then having to hold the throttle wide open and crank and crank till it finally started with a black cloud. You never hear anyone say they would want a Rochester Quadrajet back
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JB, the 'nitwit' comment wasn't aimed at you.
I'll elucidate. My agreeing to disagree comment was based on your comment:
carburated wins on real world performance.
That is what we must agree to disagree about. Also, I never said that:
a ECU can't be programmed to duplicate a carburetor.
And that is the premise of my argument: it can be.
Let me clear things up to stop further confusion-
1. I believe FI is better than carbs
2. Guzzi factory maps are crap, it's not due to inherent FI issues.
3. A FI bike can get as good fuel economy and smooth running as a carbureted bike if properly tuned.
4. The majority of complaints about FI are because:
a) They don't understand it
b) they modify the bike and it runs worse and they blame the FI
c) the bike is not setup or tuned properly and they blame the FI
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There is also the fact that a large number of FI bikes simply aren't set up right.
Even before I became a convert to the wonders of remapping I would find that the vast majority of bikes that had been serviced elsewhere, especially W5AM equipped machines would be set up completely wrong! Even now, nine years after Guzzi started using the W5AM I'm still getting bikes coming in that have never had the TB's balanced correctly or various bits that shouldn't be fiddled with have been fiddled with.
You can't blame anything to do with the bike for poor running if it isn't tuned properly. End of story. The same is just as true for a bike with points and carburetors.
Pete
just for the record, my calvin is totally stock, the temperature sensor works and TPS is set up perfectly and the stock map is a joke!! sorry for thread drift
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I don't doubt the ETS works but is it accurately reflecting the engine temperature?
If you use a scantool to read the perceived ET and then use even your finger to test the *actual* temperature you will probably find a huge discrepancy, especially in colder weather.
Once again the 8V is a different animal due to its sensor location and the way it cools, or over-cools.
Pete
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yes, been through every check with the ETS. At present for extra insurance I've also changed the map so the ETS makes no correction to the fueling once the engine is at operating temperature. I am familiar with the problem, having experienced it on another bike. In this case it just doesn't apply
and I'm not talking about poor running during warm-up or on cold days or anything like that, just normal running under pretty much optimum conditions.
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So maybe the problem isn't related to the map at all? Perhaps it's a physical/mechanical issue?
Pete
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ok, this is thread drift for sure...
no known mechanical issues with this cali, only 17000km, I've had it from new. Near-on perfect compression both sides, leakdown test all good, tps synched etc
I've known two calivintages and I assure you the maps are terrible!
I do ride fast and far and perhaps they were set up to be 'cruised' rather than 'pushed'
an incredible continent crosser if you can keep it in the sweet spot, but I find it unacceptable that it'll pink at certain rpms.
I've been tuning it a long while and I'm close. Have shared the map with others on this forum and they seemed happy with the map. Again, maybe I'm asking more from my bike.
I know wideband sensors don't tell the whole story, but if you run the stock map with a sensor in there, the readings are way way lean. And the fact that it pinks and that full advance for a dual plugged motor is 43 degrees makes me think Marelli were having an off day (or the emissions guys just happened to be visiting) when they programmed the vintage...
YMMV and thanks for the input, PM me if you have any ideas!
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UGG, Lectron carbs, the idle circuit will be correct about 2 days a year... Great, if you are going to the salt flats...
I knew you'd appreciate that Mike. :)
Beetle, (or anyone), can you point me towards someone who could improve the map of my 2v Norge? That bike is 95% there, but it needs a good FI grooming.
Hunter
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Hunter, I built a map for a guy with a 2V Sport that may work for you. No guarantees though. Or you could ping Molly on the forum. He's done some good work for the 2V engines.
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I knew you'd appreciate that Mike. :)
Beetle, (or anyone), can you point me towards someone who could improve the map of my 2v Norge? That bike is 95% there, but it needs a good FI grooming.
Hunter
I just send you one, if your email address here works
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I think much of the FI harshness at low throttle is due to the butterfly throttle plate, and the big jump in size on throttle bodies vs carbs.
Old Land Rovers were sweet to drive off road with a Solex, but putting on a bigger Rochester would make the response harsh.
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I knew you'd appreciate that Mike. :)
Beetle, (or anyone), can you point me towards someone who could improve the map of my 2v Norge? That bike is 95% there, but it needs a good FI grooming.
Hunter
Map sent via email.
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JB
to answer original question,
yes the ECU can be used for ignition only.
Just disconnect all sensors and you will 'fool' the ECU into thinking its at full throttle all the time. It will thus give you the ignition values from the top line of your ignition map.
Its surprisingly as simple as that.
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My belief, backed up by research, is that most of the high consumption woes, especially on the 2V big blocks, are down to inaccurate input from the engine temperature sensor. This can be addressed, but not cured absolutely, by ensuring the sensor is getting an accurate reading and coupling this with a better map...........
I was peering at mine the other day and saw that my B11 has the plastic "adaptor" between the sensor and the block.
Is it necessary to change that for the metal version before using the grease between the sensor and the adaptor as I've seen you recommend before Pete?
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Wow! :bow: to the folks on this board who know this s%*t so well. I read this entire thread and felt like I was back in college, in a class with a subject (insert whatever you like here) I didn't care about and never understood, but I was required to take it and pass. In this case I don't have to pass the efi vs carb debate or even understand any of it.
I say we need to focus more on riding and worry less about picking nits. Let's see, there's a saying about not seeing the forest for the trees :wink:
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I'd love to have EFI rather than carbs. Many of my longer rides go from near sea level to 11,000ft and the carbs just don't do well for that. They run smooth, but, to not run too lean at lower alt they run rich at higher. Mileage suffers.
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John
The next time you are in the area come by and ride my '98 EV. Mike Haven did a tune up years ago and it made a great improvement over stock setup. No hesitations, smooth throttle response and gets up to 55 mpg (taking it easy riding back roads). Now my Quota is quite the opposite of the EV. The Quota idles rough, jerky throttle input and low gas mileage. Does fine on the Interstate roads and rides better than the EV so there is a trade off.
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I'd love to have EFI rather than carbs. Many of my longer rides go from near sea level to 11,000ft and the carbs just don't do well for that. They run smooth, but, to not run too lean at lower alt they run rich at higher. Mileage suffers.
Is this for the T5?
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I use each type. I like them for what they do(locomotion). Knowing how to correlate the inputs to each system to achieve the desired result is helpful. Digital is based on precise things. Carbs allow for fuzzy math.
I can get 60 MPG with the Mille. Touring mode. Ride it like you stole it gives 40.
The V11 will deliver mid 40's with short shifting around town and above posted limits on the slab. Steady throttle 80-90 mph. Low 30's with a hooligan wrist.
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RK, yes.
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RK, yes.
I'm working on that.
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Cool.
At one time I shifted the tapered needle when I knew I was not going to lower altitudes. As soon as I did that I'd get a job in LA and have to ride there for a week. So, I just learned to leave it set and live with it. It rides well a bit on the rich side so I just put fill the tank more often.
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If fuel miles are the goal, lose weight, lose the windshield, use different tires, up the tire pressure, coast down hills, wear tighter fitting clothes, narrower handlebars so you are not a kite, lower the front fender closer to the wheel, use lighter motor oil, only fill the tank up half or less to reduce weight, run the engine low on oil to reduce weight. Wind drag and weight are the biggest consumer of fuel. Ride slow, very slow and don't stop.
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Ah, Triumph. That is true. I rode my wife's Bonnie (2013) back to back with my Norge today. That Bonnie is incredibly smooth (and so was my 2014 Thruxton). Absolutely no throttle snatchiness at low speed. The Norge is on-off at low speed, bucking and lurching. I guess the British engineers are onto something.
The new generation fly by wire Triumphs have apparently greatly improved throttle response. I have a 2013 1050 Tiger Sport with a throttle cable and there isn't a ride goes by when at some stage I wish it had carbs. Even though I have tweaked the map it still will lurch forward occasionally on a slow bend if the throttle isn't applied perfectly.
Unlike the Guzzi I can't alter the temperature/pressure table because it runs too lean at higher ambient temperatures.
I can't say I had any such issues with the carbs on my earlier Hinckley Triumphs which gave good fuel consumption and never faltered at any altitude or temperature.