Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lannis on May 21, 2015, 09:37:41 AM
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Reflex and Muscle Memory. The same things that allow you to get good at baseball or golf or any other physical activity that requires precise movements.
The week of 5/13 - 5/20 I only rode the Norton. I rode about 1200 miles or so. Started out pretty tentative and wobbly, but by the end of the week I was confident and smooth on it. Knew where the pedals were, where the clutch engaged, how it fell in and out of curves, how much pressure to put on to slow down, all that.
Then a friend calls yesterday and says "Hey, retired guy, let's go for a ride." So I get out the Stelvio, take off the luggage, strap a rain suit to the rack, and off we go for a brisk ride on the back roads.
Ten miles out on the ride from home, I pull up to a stop to cross a highway, and I grabbed a Norton-sized handful of brake suitable for a Lockheed single disk. The dual Brembos on the Stelvio interpreted this as an emergency, locked the wheel, and over I went on the right side. Luckily I was in ATG this time including boots and leather, so just a sore shoulder for me and a few scratches on the valve cover, handguards, and rear luggage mounts for the bike. A guy in the pickup behind me hopped out and helped me get it back on the wheels.
Went on for a 300 mile day on the back roads. AGAIN, started out wobbly and tentative, but by the time I got home, I was smooth and confident again.
So I'm starting to worry about this 200-mile transition period when I change bikes. I've got 6 of them with 4 different shift and control patterns, and even the ones with the same control positions respond completely differently, and it's just damn dangerous those first miles when I get back from a long trip on one of them and then get on another one .... Every time I do it, I either have a close call with my fumbling hands and feet, or actually ding something.
Up until 2001, when I bought the Centauro to accompany the BSA Firebird, I never owned two riders at one time. I had one bike, and rode it for everything. Didn't go to "brand" rallies, and Fay and I tolerated about any conditions for riding two up, so it worked. But now that I sort of like showing up at rallies on the appropriate bike, and Fay and I are really riding a long ways with "older" bodies two up, I seem to "need" several bikes. I'm just afraid I'm getting past the time when I can instantly convert from one to the other, and I hate that disability.
A "First World" problem, I know, but these bikes ARE and always have been a big part of my life and my lifestyle, and change is difficult .....
Lannis
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Prior to getting the Cali I had been riding a Convert for about 10 years. Before that my main ride was an Ambassador. It took several years before I finally quit the occasional upshift from second to first instead of third.
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Sorry about your mishap, and I hope you get over the soreness quickly. I had a little one a couple weeks ago myself, and am just getting to where I don't moan loudly after a sneeze. :D
To further prove your point, last year I rode my H2 after putting many hundreds of miles on my Mille. When slowing for a turn, I used both the (non-linked) front dual disk brake and the rear brake like I had been doing on the Mille, and locked the rear wheel. Sort of the opposite of what you did, I guess. At least a rear wheel lockup doesn't mean an instant crash.
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Sorry to hear about your mishap. However, a very interesting and relevant topic. You seem to write quite well and have the tenacity to be expressive. I suggest you write an article on this topic (now that you're retired) and submit it to one of the motorcycle rags. I think it would be great in MCN perhaps as a letter to the editor type of story. Or The MGNOC news letter.
Sam
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I really agree with that. When I do a long one on my beemer then get on the CX there is a definite re adjust to the difference which are many including the no inter lock and brake feel.
You have to be careful for sure. All four of my machine are quite different, and the KLR is REALLY different.
Aircraft are the same!
:-)
Absolutely. Motorcycles and airplanes are "feel" machines. Even the location of the controls make a difference. Right now, I'm riding the Lario and the Skorpion. The brake feel is totally opposite on those two machines. Fortunately, that doesn't bother me.. so far. ;D When I had the right side shift V700, I had to consciously remind myself of it when leaving the Guzzi Garage. (tm) Not really a good thing.
When I'm used to flying the Sonerai or Pitts, where you don't actually *move* the controls on a cross wind landing, it takes effort to *make* myself crank the yoke on something like a Cessna 170.
As Lannis sez, it's a first world problem. ;D I'm glad to have it.. ;)
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Thankfully your accident wasn't too painful and hopefully you recover fully before the riding season begins.
I also have more than one bike. A 98 Honda Valkyrie, my Moto Guzzi Nevada and a Triumph America. Both the Goose and the America have been modified and produce more power than they came with, but still have the OEM brakes and suspension. I ride all 3 fairly often, at least often enough that I don't need a battery tender.
I have no problem transitioning from one bike to the other because they all have the same shift pattern and while the weight, handling and braking is different on each, the transition isn't that difficult.
My advantage may be that I'm not overly aggressive. I ride within my limits and the weight and riding posture required by each bike is different, so it's fairly easy to remember which bike I'm on and it's limitations.
With your 6 bikes and different shift patterns, etc., I can understand how it would be more difficult to make the transition. If you want to continue to have 6 bikes perhaps you could do some trading or buying and selling and limit your choices to those with the same shift patterns. You'd still have a great variety to choose from and it might make things easier for you.
Just saying......
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Congratulations on having this problem, and thanks for sharing it.
JUST ONCE when my Eldo was down waiting for parts and a friend out of town I absconded with his 1957 Triumph pre-unit chopper to get to and from work on a Saturday. It shifts (4 speed) on the right and brakes on the left. A very interesting commute.
Put it back washed, polished, and fueled. He took it pretty well.
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The old saying about not being fearful of a guy with several guns but fear the guy with just one applies to motorcycle also.
I ride 3 bikes regularly and find when I go from the Beemer or Norge to the Harley it is a day and night situation. The Harley feels so heavy and the toe-heel shifter is hard to get used to again. Handling is much different on the road along with the riding stance.
At our ages we just don't adapt quickly easily any more.
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This was always one of my objections AGAINST ABS brakes, which perhaps I've come full circle now to embrace as an argument FOR ABS brakes.
I used to argue that owning a number of bikes, I didn't want just ONE of them to have ABS because I didn't want to pick up a bad habit of just hauling down on the ABS bike and letting the system do the work, then accidentally doing the same on a non-ABS unit.
But having ABS on a few bikes over the past 2 decades has taught me that I CAN treat the ABS bike just like everything else and HOPEFULLY not activate it, but that doesn't mean it's not still there just in case I need do.
So now I'm thinking if it's available on a bike I want, perhaps I should always get it.
That said, I've experienced what you're talking about to a lesser extent hoping between the Harley and Ducati, or even back in the day, hoping between the Jackal and Breva. But it was more of a oooopppppss it's taking longer to stop than a high side.
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I've got three Guzzis. There's a huge difference between the smallblocks and the Le Mans, mostly in the extra 120 or more lbs. Switchgear is different on all but close enough not to be a major problem. Riding position/ergos is also close as the V50 has clubman bars and footpegs repositioned to the Monza location. So no adjustment needed.
About a year ago a BSA B40/SS90 came to live with me. 350cc single. Makes even a V50 seem like a big bike. Right shift, left brake, better braking on compression than twin drums, sit-up riding position… nothing at all like the Guzzis and except at the beginning I've never had a problem with the foot controls. Switchgear is a kill switch on the handlebars and the headlight switch on top of the headlight housing. Doesn't sound like a Guzzi, doesn't feel like a Guzzi so there's no confusion. Does make me appreciate electric start when it doesn't want to play… Does help that it's completely different.
Just be glad you don't have an old Bridgestone with the rotary shift patten…
cr
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LOL, exactly why I liked the ABS when I had the Honda. It was a 'one finger' brake. Going from the old T5, with it's 'grab it hard lever', to the Honda was an accident waiting to happen. The ABS meant the transition was not 'harmful'.
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You should try going from a sidecar rig to a goldwing trike, to Loopframe, then to a tonti convert! Talk about differences in handling, and feel ! Ive never really thought about it much, and had attributed my "wobblyness" to old age, and physical limitations.......M aybe its "normal", then? ;D
Rick.
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Should I admit to owning eight bikes? Three BMWs, two Harleys, Moto Guzzi Cal Aluminium, Ducati Monster 1200, KLR 650 . . .
I guess I ride too conservatively to notice a problem when switching bikes. Biggest issue is dry clutch vs. wet clutch. Takes a couple of minutes when I ride one of the BMWs or the MG to be more gradual with the clutch.
The KLR is just so easy to ride that I never have a problem. The Ducati has such a stupid amount of power that I am constantly aware of it. The MG is weird but fun, and easy to ride. Can't imagine why a pushrod twin is geared so strangely that I need to run it at 4000 rpm or more to make it run smoothly . . .
The Harleys are heavy. Road King is sweet and easy to ride. Fits like an old shoe. The Ultra is super heavy, but if you're planning to be on it every day for a week, it's fine. After a couple of days, it doesn't even seem that ponderous.
If all I need is superb transportation from point to point, with no nonsense, I take one of my K75s (naked K75 and K75RT for cold weather). Not terribly comfortable for me, but utterly reliable and unflappable. I used the K75RT to ride to work for 11 winters, many times when I shouldn't have (ice and snow), and it never let me down in any way. Same for the K75 in summer storms when I couldn't see the road in front of me.
Also have an R1100RT I bought new and seldom ride now. Beautiful and capable bike.
I think the advantage here is that they all brake and shift on the same side, and all have brakes that feel "right" to me. I'm not a good enough or confident enough rider (even after 36 years and 400K plus miles) to use any of them near their limits. The Ducati is just plain silly; I bought it as a retirement gift to myself.
Three of these bikes (K75RT, R1100RT, and the Ducati) have ABS. I've never actually used it on the street, other than experiencing cycling of the R1100RT's ABS on "stutter bumps".
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It could have been a lot worse. For example...
Years ago I had a Norton Mk III Commando Interstate much like yours. I'd become very accustomed to riding it and knew very well its needs, habits and limitations (as well as my own). Then I bought a slightly used and very cheap (those were the days) Norton Commando John Player Replica; yes, the real deal. I bought it sight unseen and flew from Detroit to Green Bay, WI to pick it up. As some may know, by the time of the MK III Commando Norton had adopted the now compulsory left foot shift with the standard up and down pattern and the rear brake pedal on the right. In comparison, the JPN was based on the Mk IIA Nortons and used a right foot shift with an upside down pattern and rear brake on the left.
On the ride home from Green Bay, in a slight rain and after a sleepless night on the steam-powered Badger ferry across Lake Michigan, I faced an emergency braking and avoidance maneuver. I was passing a very slow car on a country road. Plenty of visibility, lots of room to pass and plenty of time even on damp roads. Until a car pulled out of a driveway into my passing lane. I applied the front brake with my right hand, and dabbed the rear brake with my right foot, all in an effort to slow down and dive back in behind the car I had been about to pass. If you've been paying attention, you'll realize that I had, out of muscle memory and habit, actually dabbed the JPN's gear shift with my right foot. Due to the upside down pattern, this resulted in an unexpectedly quick downshift, throwing the weight distribution forward and compressing the forks, all of which, combined with the application of the front brake, locked the front wheel on the damp pavement. Big OOPS!
Luckily, if you call this luck, I had almost ducked back in behind the slow car I had been about to pass. Unluckily, he had slowed even further as he realized what was about to happen. As a result of that and my locked front brake, I hit his rear bumper hard and involuntarily took flight over the bars, but not before banging my delicate parts hard up against the JPN's big, bulky fiberglass gas tank cover. Nuts! I apparently did a mid-air somersault and hit my heels on the trunk lid of the car ahead. I then landed on the road flat on my back, completely knocking the wind out of me as I'd never before experienced.
Since the pavement was damp, I slid down the road quite some way with very little friction, finally coming to a stop but still gasping desperately for breath. Then I heard the sound of a sliding motorcycle and watched from flat on my back as the Norton, on its side, slid rest right up against me with a gentle bump. Did I mention that I had gassed up the bike for the remaining ride home just a few miles earlier? As the John Player and I lay on the road I was still gasping as the Norton leaed fuel from the gas cap at an alarming rate. Thank God things were damp and the whole process hadn't caused any sparks.
As you may guess, I lived, coming away badly bruised in the nether regions and with a fractured vertebra. You know how they say that, in times like this, your whole life flashes before your eyes? What went through my mind as I went over the bars was, "Oh, sh!t, wish I'd bought full coverage on the Norton!" Priorities, you know?
So, I have to say that your little tip over, Lannis, was simply a gentle reminder to take it easy those first few miles when you switch bikes.
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Know how it goes Lannis, but not with the multiple bikes. In the 60's I had the Matchy (1 up, three down) and my mate had a 650 Tbird (1 down three up). Always embarrassing when we swapped bikes; I would wrap his on in 2nd and promptly change back down to 1st. :o :-[ :-[
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Maybe because I ride so many different bikes (including customer's), I don't usually have a problem. Once my butt hits a seat and I find first gear, I'm good to go afterwards. Of course, I can't think of any bike (since my Centauro anyway) that would have me over-braking to the point of crashing even if I did grab a big hand full.
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I totally identify Lannis and glad your ok . I just turned 66 and have dropped the Stevio twice in the last year . It's apparent my age has something to do with this.
I sold my Norton last summer and ranted about what a troublesome ride it was on this site but the reality was I wasn't confident on it anymore and hit the brake too many times thinking it was the shifter . Bloody unsettling to say the least . I sold my 850T shortly thereafter for similar reasons , lots of excuses why but just not as confident on it . I'm relieved to only have 2 bikes now . Less chance of doing something I won't recover from and the Eldo is an easy bike to ride for a classic .
I'm seriously thinking of selling the Stelvio for something a little easier to pick up when dropped , something that never entered my head until recently ! I priced a new hand guard for the cracked one on my Stelvio at $25.00 . Could of been a lot worse !
Cheers , Steve
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I don't have much problem switching between bikes:
most have normal left shift, 1 down, x up (Duc is 6 speed, all other 5 speed)
Norton has right side, 1 up, 3 down
Triumphs have right side, 1 down, 3 up
Trail 90's are left side, all down.
I usually just take the classics out on Sundays for vintage rides or maybe tuesdays for bike night. Most time spent on the tradition bikes shift patterns.
As for front brakes, My Duc has amazing brakes, pretty much all others kind of suck though. Never had a problem with adjusting to brakes, but then I drive the classics pretty sedately.
Every once in a while I'll find myself stabbing at the shifter for rear brake but very seldom. It's a problem I'll gladly live with.
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Glad your no worse for the wear Lannis,
I too have the luxury of choosing one of three bikes to ride to work everyday. I intentionally only ride the same bike two days in a row because of most of the reasons stated above by others.
cookiemech is right, The KLR is the easiest to just hop on and go. I have worked hard to get the ergos pretty close to same between the V11 sport and the K75S. Believe me it's really close.
However once the motor is propelling you it's a whole lotta different between the two, and it takes attention to detail on how to make inputs to throttle, brakes,cornering and shifting. But that first few minutes
of riding becomes second nature and all is well. Keeping it mixed up keeps me sharp on all three and makes it enjoyable to ride.
Paul :BEER:
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My XR has the weakest brakes but so far, she is such a different bike from the other two I seem to transition to and from it rather well - but then I don't ride one bike for thousands of miles on end (save the Griso, which I take to Not-a-Rallys and rally).
When I hop on the CB1100 the brakes are a bit of a problem as they are much grippier than the Griso's. I really have to dial it back a bit; so far, no problems.
I seem to have bigger problems with carb'd bike vs. fuel injection, with only the XR for a carb bike it is easier to keep up on it than the old 350F, which was a royal pain.
It would be nice to get back to two bikes though. Problem is; which two.
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Yeah, the other downside is having sold all but one having to look for another so as to have two. Something smaller than a Norge and different.
So far:
CB500x
TDM (just can't get a good one parted from an owner)
Transalp
Might have to go for a new Mana GT. 2013s are still available I hear and for slightly more than an oil change on the Norge.
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It could have been a lot worse. For example...
Years ago I had a Norton Mk III Commando Interstate much like yours. I'd become very accustomed to riding it and knew very well its needs, habits and limitations (as well as my own). Then I bought a slightly used and very cheap (those were the days) Norton Commando John Player Replica; yes, the real deal. I bought it sight unseen and flew from Detroit to Green Bay, WI to pick it up. As some may know, by the time of the MK III Commando Norton had adopted the now compulsory left foot shift with the standard up and down pattern and the rear brake pedal on the right. In comparison, the JPN was based on the Mk IIA Nortons and used a right foot shift with an upside down pattern and rear brake on the left.
On the ride home from Green Bay, in a slight rain and after a sleepless night on the steam-powered Badger ferry across Lake Michigan, I faced an emergency braking and avoidance maneuver. I was passing a very slow car on a country road. Plenty of visibility, lots of room to pass and plenty of time even on damp roads. Until a car pulled out of a driveway into my passing lane. I applied the front brake with my right hand, and dabbed the rear brake with my right foot, all in an effort to slow down and dive back in behind the car I had been about to pass. If you've been paying attention, you'll realize that I had, out of muscle memory and habit, actually dabbed the JPN's gear shift with my right foot. Due to the upside down pattern, this resulted in an unexpectedly quick downshift, throwing the weight distribution forward and compressing the forks, all of which, combined with the application of the front brake, locked the front wheel on the damp pavement. Big OOPS!
Luckily, if you call this luck, I had almost ducked back in behind the slow car I had been about to pass. Unluckily, he had slowed even further as he realized what was about to happen. As a result of that and my locked front brake, I hit his rear bumper hard and involuntarily took flight over the bars, but not before banging my delicate parts hard up against the JPN's big, bulky fiberglass gas tank cover. Nuts! I apparently did a mid-air somersault and hit my heels on the trunk lid of the car ahead. I then landed on the road flat on my back, completely knocking the wind out of me as I'd never before experienced.
Since the pavement was damp, I slid down the road quite some way with very little friction, finally coming to a stop but still gasping desperately for breath. Then I heard the sound of a sliding motorcycle and watched from flat on my back as the Norton, on its side, slid rest right up against me with a gentle bump. Did I mention that I had gassed up the bike for the remaining ride home just a few miles earlier? As the John Player and I lay on the road I was still gasping as the Norton leaed fuel from the gas cap at an alarming rate. Thank God things were damp and the whole process hadn't caused any sparks.
As you may guess, I lived, coming away badly bruised in the nether regions and with a fractured vertebra. You know how they say that, in times like this, your whole life flashes before your eyes? What went through my mind as I went over the bars was, "Oh, sh!t, wish I'd bought full coverage on the Norton!" Priorities, you know?
So, I have to say that your little tip over, Lannis, was simply a gentle reminder to take it easy those first few miles when you switch bikes.
Glad you survived that crash but more importantly, how did the JPN do after the crash? ;)
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Fact is everybody is different and you need to understand what camp you're in. I don't take much time to adjust, but that's me. Always been that way with things. I find that two different bikes are easier than the same bike that are far different from each other... for obvious reasons. You may want to consider having dumped the bike a "hint" at the very least. Glad you're well.
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Below is a link to a video that shows the muscle and mental memory aspects to a common task, riding a bicycle.
Watch to whole thing (8 minutes) as it gets funny toward the end.
http://viewpure.com/MFzDaBzBlL0?ref=bkmk
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Tried an intelligent reply, server died. Maybe tomorrow
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Saw the bike vid yesterday; very cool.
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First order of business when the Ambo came home was to switch the right shift to the left. I wanted the brain not to have to think what to do that was different then "normal"
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Wow! Not even 12 hours and this is some of the best input on motorcycling I've ever had .... I'm collecting the conclusions and will respond tomorrow ...
Thanks guys!
Lannis
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I feel your pain. I've fallen off three times this past two months, but on trail bikes. I have two, a Yamaha Sero and a TW200. I use both to get along my farm trails but also to get up some of the decommissioned forestry trails above my farm. Decommissioned forestry roads are a challenge at best. The Sero is more powerful and has lighter steering and a lighter front end than the TW. It's been enough to knock me off balance as I carefully try to negotiate humps and bumps and rocks on the trails just in first gear. I'm sticking to the TW, now. I'm getting to old to fall off just for the hell of it.
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Wow! Not even 12 hours and this is some of the best input on motorcycling I've ever had .... I'm collecting the conclusions and will respond tomorrow ...
Thanks guys!
Lannis
Well, WG is populated with several er.. experienced.. yeah that's the word ;D riders.
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Going from new to old the brakes have nearly caught me out before but when it comes time to mix shift patterns I'm going to struggle.
Hats off to you for generally doing it well! Glad you're OK.
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Then a friend calls yesterday and says "Hey, retired guy, let's go for a ride." So I get out the Stelvio, take off the luggage, strap a rain suit to the rack, and off we go for a brisk ride on the back roads.
Lannis
Some of your mishap(glad you are o.k., Mr. Lannis) may be contained in this sentence of yours..
Easy to get caught up in the moment, briskly riding with friends.
You brought a rainsuit, so I presume passing through damp/wet roads (or scootin' along to beat the rain? :BEER:)
And back roads can demand your attention on several fronts at once, braking, shifting, weight transfer etc...
Personally, I think the Stelvio was pissed at you over the Norton ride..
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Everybody who has passed through a number of bikes has had the experience of trying the shift with the brake pedal.(in my case I went from a BMW to a right shift BSA to a Velocette - one up and three down - to a Suzuki).
More importantly though, I find every bike has its own long learning curve even with government standardized controls. For that reason, I am no longer interested when a friend on a ride offers to switch bikes. I don't think I can really evaluate a strange to me bike in the thirty or so miles I might take it, not to mention taking on the risk of an unfamiliar bike with an uncertain maintenance history. Similarly, when test riding a potential used bike purchase, I really am only interested in confirming all the gears work. Truly determining whether the used bike is worth the money doesn't come from a spin around the block on a strange machine. That determination only comes long after the purchase was made.
Kind regards
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Relieved you're ok Lannis.
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Lannis,
Lots of great comments. Same experience between V7R and Triumph STRX. Braking is radically different, so is throttle.
One of my strategies: stick with one bike over a typical weekend of riding. Also really focus on adapting brake grip (strong on Guzzi, finesse on Trumpet).
Glad you are ok! Overall having a second bike has made me a better rider though.
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Try going from always riding a bike, to riding a scooter for the first time, which has the rear brake where the clutch handle is. Talk about a WTF moment the first time I came up to a red light and locked up the rear brake out of habit of always using a clutch ::).
Nowadays I don't even think about it and my brain instantly goes from scooter mode to bike mode as soon as I hop on whichever seat.
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At one time I had an Eldo with the "normal" shift pattern and an Ambo with the reverse pattern. That made for some interesting shifts.
Rich A
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I can relate to your post, on the weekend I rode my KLR 650, then on Sunday the Eldorado and this evening I was on my right hand shift V7 Sport, I find the right hand shift requires continuous concentration, I keep shifting the brake lever and stopping with the shifter. The most 'comfortable' of my riders is the Eldorado, the KLR the easiest to ride and the V7 Sport the most invigorating.
Most boring and lifeless bike I own .... my BMW, dependable, 10 hour comfort and just dull.
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For awhile now I've been mainly riding maxi-scooters. Today I picked up my fixed 750 Breva and the wife followed me home. We started in the middle of Prescott, Az., which is a touristy town with more traffic than I like. :D Wife said she could tell immediately I was awkward in my riding going from a twist & go scooter that also happens to turn more than any MC. Not to mention not having to deal with a clutch from start to changing gears for months, on hilly, congested roads. ~; At the end of my 123 mile return home I was pretty much back in synch. with riding a MC again, but at first it was iffy and she could tell. ;D
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Try going from always riding a bike, to riding a scooter for the first time, which has the rear brake where the clutch handle is. Talk about a WTF moment the first time I came up to a red light and locked up the rear brake out of habit of always using a clutch ::).
Nowadays I don't even think about it and my brain instantly goes from scooter mode to bike mode as soon as I hop on whichever seat.
The 1st time I rode an Aprilia 500 GT scooter in a demo ride, at slow speed I almost went over the handlebar grabbing both hand levers!!! :o Definitely time to relearn what riding is all about. :D
Few years later I adapted and got my 1st scooter, an Aprilia Scarabeo 500GT, which I still have. ;D
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Lannis: Help is on the way from California. For $2000 I'll get that troublesome Norton out of your hair and you'll have no more Stelvio mishaps.
My '74 Commando Interstate needs a kindred spirit to lounge about with. Problems solved.
Your friend,
Ralph
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Glad you're OK! I've experienced similar confusion, but fortunately have not dropped anything - yet.
I've confused the brake and shifter so many times that I sometimes hesitate. I learned to ride on a BSA 441 with 1 down, 3 up on the right and 20 years later switched to an Enfield Bullet and Ariels that are 1 up, 3 down. When the Enfield and Ariel was new to me I would sometimes shift in the BSA mode, but braking was never a problem.
Until the Guzzi the only left shift bikes I'd ridden were a few miles on friends bikes (first time I was toeing up on the brake trying to make it shift...), but then I got the LeMans and had to learn left foot shifting for real. It was so alien to me that I would occasionally shift up coming to a stop and find myself in the wrong gear. I had the right hand - left foot brake pattern so engrained I was asking for advice from those with more modern bikes.
Two things helped - mostly I don't try to ride too fast where there are lots of stops and starts. And the Burman 'boxes in the Ariels require a slow foot, so slowly pressing down on the linked Guzzi brakes gives plenty of warning. Linked brakes also mean the single front disk is not going throw me over the bars. I love linked brakes because they work well and give a margin of safety.
The worst part is accidentally toeing the Guzzi shifter as if it were an Ariel rear brake and dropping down a gear - ugh! Fortunately I have only Guzzis and Ariels so nothing else to learn!
If I ride the Ariels consistently, most mistakes are made on the Guzzis. The reverse is true when mostly riding the Guzzis. As I seem to be riding the Guzzis more frequently it seems my muscle memory is improving so that I'm making fewer mistakes on both types of bikes. Like someone said above, it helps that riding position is so different between the two makes.
Weirdly I have the same problem on my bicycles - mostly the mtn bike where downhill on fast and loose twisting surfaces requires really good brake modulation to keep from throwing yourself down the trail. It's where I do most of my emergency braking on two wheels. The momentary confusion as to which hand is controlling the skid on the front is frightening. Control is so dependent on timing and muscle memory that I've considered changing the arrangement on my mtn bike to match the motorcycles - but have -almost- decided it would be TOO similar to the motorcycles to be safe. (Right hand modulates front brake on motorcycles, left hand on bicycles.) I've got so many hours on bicycles it would probably be worse. This thread has me thinking I should try it though...
And I too want to know what happened to the JPL Norton.
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The old saying about not being fearful of a guy with several guns but fear the guy with just one applies to motorcycle also.
I've been a competitive shooter for many decades and while I've heard that old adage I know it is wrong.
You learn different things from different guns. The real problem is to "code switch" to the gun you are using.
Spend a little time mastering revolvers and you learn to make your shots count.
Spend a little time mastering semi auto handguns and you learn to have real speed.
Spend a little time mastering rifles and you learn how to shoot distance.
Spend a little time mastering shotguns and you learn to shoot on instinct.
A rifleman while good with a rifle does not shoot with instinct and generally has poor pistol skills.
A pistol shooter while being good with a pistol has a problem with real distances where wind and bullet drop is a consideration.
The real problem has always been the "code switching" between the various firearms and not a matter of ability.
One of the things that competitive shooters know is the individual that masters rifle, shotgun and pistol is a very, very rare individual.
Mark in Folsom who tore a tendon in his right arm and is now drawing and shooting with his weak left hand
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This was always one of my objections AGAINST ABS brakes, which perhaps I've come full circle now to embrace as an argument FOR ABS brakes.
I used to argue that owning a number of bikes, I didn't want just ONE of them to have ABS because I didn't want to pick up a bad habit of just hauling down on the ABS bike and letting the system do the work, then accidentally doing the same on a non-ABS unit.
But having ABS on a few bikes over the past 2 decades has taught me that I CAN treat the ABS bike just like everything else and HOPEFULLY not activate it, but that doesn't mean it's not still there just in case I need do.
So now I'm thinking if it's available on a bike I want, perhaps I should always get it.
I'm with Kev M on this regarding being wary of the jump between ABS and non-ABS rides. I'd say though that the reason I think it's a big problem is that the approach to full-on braking is somewhat different depending on ABS. You certainly can treat it the way you would a non-ABS braking system, but you could decide to put your faith in the system and not gradually apply increasing pressure which is then modulated on the brake lever under hard stopping conditions, instead relying on the ABS system to prevent lock-up rather than the modulation. Since I think the braking approach is different, you do NOT want to be consciously thinking about anything that should be automatic in a situation which might induce panic. You want all of the 'attention pie' going to necessary processes (e.g., finding the correct path through the obstacles, etc.), not "hmmm, was this an ABS bike or not???...."
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I'm with Kev M on this regarding being wary of the jump between ABS and non-ABS rides. I'd say though that the reason I think it's a big problem is that the approach to full-on braking is somewhat different depending on ABS. You certainly can treat it the way you would a non-ABS braking system, but you could decide to put your faith in the system and not gradually apply increasing pressure which is then modulated on the brake lever under hard stopping conditions, instead relying on the ABS system to prevent lock-up rather than the modulation. Since I think the braking approach is different, you do NOT want to be consciously thinking about anything that should be automatic in a situation which might induce panic. You want all of the 'attention pie' going to necessary processes (e.g., finding the correct path through the obstacles, etc.), not "hmmm, was this an ABS bike or not???...."
Yeah, so I've come to systematically treat all bike brake systems as non ABS. doing my best to modulate them by feel (but still knowing in the back of my head there's a little safety margin on that modulation when I'm on an ABS equipped bike).
Hey, at least it's not like the difference in cars back when we were taught to pump the brakes.
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Sorry to hear about your mishap. However, a very interesting and relevant topic. You seem to write quite well and have the tenacity to be expressive. I suggest you write an article on this topic (now that you're retired) and submit it to one of the motorcycle rags. I think it would be great in MCN perhaps as a letter to the editor type of story. Or The MGNOC news letter.
Sam
that's a great idea. And:
I empathize with your plight. At one time I had.....
76 Laverda - 1 dn 4 up - RH Shift
84 Cal II - Toe dn, Heel up - LH Shift
72 850GT - 1 up 4dn - RH shift
76 H2 - 5 up - LH Shift
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I have experienced this too at times and find the need to remind myself that the newer bikes have so much more braking power than the older ones. Jumping from the Norton to the Ducati one time I locked up the front wheel when I needed to stop suddenly in traffic. While sliding,my brain (grey matter?) kicked in to release the brake lever and take control with the rear brake. Kind scary and cool at the same time but it was a wake up call.
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My hands have calibration dials.
I find cornering differences between the V7R and Trumpet to be a challenge. Very, very different. Tires and suspension and geometry contribute I am sure.
Fueling response is part of the game.