Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: chandlerslaughter on May 27, 2015, 10:16:02 AM
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Anyone know if they're still selling this? Been getting the click I heard so much about as opposed to a start.
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I believe they are.
It'll just take a quick phone call to find out.
And if they're not, it's really simple to make it yourself with about $5 of parts from Wally's World (wire, crimps or solder and fuse holder).
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Bigga hamma needed.
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I believe they are.
It'll just take a quick phone call to find out.
And if they're not, it's really simple to make it yourself with about $5 of parts from Wally's World (wire, crimps or solder and fuse holder).
Do the Yellow Wire Intercept straight from the battery as has been documented here recently, it's the simplest way.
Here it is:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43725.msg660033#msg660033
Hunter
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Do the Yellow Wire Intercept straight from the battery as has been documented here recently, it's the simplest way.
Here it is:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43725.msg660033#msg660033
Hunter
In post No 49 of that thread I give an explanation of the high solenoid current that causes "Startus Interuptus"
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Okay so I found the relay, and the yellow wire. I just don't understand what's next. Haven't ever really dabbled with wiring. What exactly do I need to buy as far as the inline fuse holder? And how do I connect it?
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Find the relay (the only one with a solid yellow wire)
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/128202EC-344D-4622-BAA3-944E60919720_zpsubp2jgp1.jpg)
get a fuse holder and a 30a fuse
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/3751F566-E7BE-417D-B146-770E7ED1C971_zpskpddorne.jpg)
cut the yellow wire, solder the fuse holder into the yellow wire and put a ring terminal on the other end (i guess you could crimp or use butt connectors?? but arent you trying to REDUCE faults??)
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/FF5F4D9C-CCFA-483F-8F72-8138574BC23E_zps0zuifdxs.jpg)
run the ring terminal to the +battery
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/EE77608A-D47B-4E44-B9A2-D5ED14589159_zpsxpsp39bs.jpg)
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Thanks so much, I'll update on the progress.
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Yes we still sell it, its meant to be a plug and play for those less inclined to cut and solder on their bike. It does the same thing, just quicker to do
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Yes we still sell it, its meant to be a plug and play for those less inclined to cut and solder on their bike. It does the same thing, just quicker to do
Just ordered one, painless process.
Support those who support us.
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Have run the MPH 'startus interruptus' on the 1200 Sport for the past year or so, after I began experiencing 'maybe it will, maybe it won't' starting conditions. Purchased another for the Griso. Just haven't gotten around to installing it yet. To me, a wiring Neanderthal, it is ideal.
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Six stock years and counting and never an issue starting. I keep a good battery, replace it every three years or so and keep on chugging.
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Six stock years and counting and never an issue starting. I keep a good battery, replace it every three years or so and keep on chugging.
You have a great point. If the voltage and current works when you first get it and doesn't later, something changed. A work around doesn't address the cause of the problem but it does address the symptom.
It is nice to have the fix handy just in case because once out and away from places things can happen and it's nice to have the kit available.
Still, like a leaking rear seal that drips through the cable stay hole, it is a notice that something changed and needs attention. Plugging the hole wouldn't be an answer although it would stop the drip for a while. If the problem with the starting is corrosion in the ignition switch or something else, that isn't going to get better because of a work around.
I plan to keep the kit handy.
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You have a great point. If the voltage and current works when you first get it and doesn't later, something changed. A work around doesn't address the cause of the problem but it does address the symptom.
It is nice to have the fix handy just in case because once out and away from places things can happen and it's nice to have the kit available.
Still, like a leaking rear seal that drips through the cable stay hole, it is a notice that something changed and needs attention. Plugging the hole wouldn't be an answer although it would stop the drip for a while. If the problem with the starting is corrosion in the ignition switch or something else, that isn't going to get better because of a work around.
I plan to keep the kit handy.
I think this is a bad analogy.
It's not like a leaking seal, in that that seal's JOB is to keep oil in the case. So it's more like the factory designed a seal that can't do that, and the aftermarket designed an additional seal to be installed over top of it which can do the job.
A battery is supposed to supply sufficient power to start the bike, and provide a cushion should electrical demand become higher than output at some point during operation.
My Breva started doing it when my stock battery was maybe 3 years old. After the fix that SAME STOCK BATTERY continued to provide service for ANOTHER THREE YEARS without said symptoms ever showing up again.
I would argue the OEM design of the circuit IS THE BAND-AID and the Startus Interuptus fix IS the ACTUAL REPAIR that allows the system to work properly and take advantage of a battery that has more than sufficient amperage/voltage to crank the starter motor but didn't have the excessive voltage to overcome the poor design of the starter relay circuit.
I'll add that we should also keep in mind that electrical systems AGE TOO... the wires become more brittle, more susceptible to breaks under the insulation, which can drive resistance up in the circuit. Relays or switches can become corroded and stick, starter solenoids and motors can draw more power etc.
But it would hardly make sense to replace the entire electrical harness and all electrical components, when a simple power supply bypass can DOUBLE or more the service life of your battery AND help make sure you're not stuck roadside in those additional years.
Seems like a lot more than a "work around" to me.
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Well stated argument Kev.
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I'll go with Kev's assessment. In addition to the benefits he's presented the relay solution also slows the 'aging' process. Wiring naturally ages (perishes) due to heat/cooling combined with corrosion and moisture. The cooler and dryer we can keep the wiring the longer it lasts. Relays offload power from the more fragile switch and light-gauge wires and puts it at the circuit load where it's needed. This both reduces the 'wear and tear' on the bits and improves the performance of the appliance you're trying to power.
I've run everything electrical on my trike except my 18w backup light through relays, I've done home-runs of the grounds to buss bars, (not using the frame as a grounding point) and I've broken down the circuits and distributed them among about 20 fuses for load balancing and failure isolation. At last count I had 10 toggle switches, 21 fuses and 11 relays in the harness. Call it overkill, but don't call it hard on the wiring. :cool:
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Call it overkill, but don't call it hard on the wiring. :cool:
More like RodeOverKyll! :grin:
Kev, you are right. It is pretty lame that the relay has 4 miles (slight exaggeration) of wire to it and depends on the ign swx. I interrupted the yellow wire on mine when I added the circuit for the new horn. The baffling thing to me is that they defeated the whole purpose of having a relay by wiring it through the switch. I can see maybe a concern about not being able to break the power to it if the relay got stuck. But really, that is very uncommon. I'll risk it in order to not get stranded EVER.
Hunter
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Kev is spot on. Happened to me all the time on my Baby Breva (now sold), did the self fix, never happened again. Truth is this was a poor design that startus interuptus fixed. Thanks to the folks at MPH, and the BBQ Mayor.
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Just did this on my '07 B1100. First time I used 18 ga. wire and it didn't make much difference. Switching to 14 ga. seems to have done the trick. Yes - it's THAT sensitive to voltage drop. Also played it safe and installed a fresh relay 'while I was in there'.
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The leaking seal wasn't the analogy, the cable stay hole was. It was a two part idea, not a focus on the seal.
The point was that anytime there is a failure, its a good idea to look into why and in this case, maybe the ignition is crumbed up. That doesn't detract from the rewire solution so no need to defend it because I didn't say there was anything wrong with it.
Not everyone experiences the starting problem. Not everyone experiences a leaking rear seal. If everyone ended up with the problem then yeah, that would be one thing so far, not everyone does.
Regardless, work around/fix or whatever we want to call it (really, does it matter?) is a great idea, I did say I bought one.
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No but I thought I was following your logic which suggests replacing the seal is the "proper" fix. I'm suggesting a scenario where the OEM seal or casing is inherently flawed requiring more than just a standard repair.
The starting problem seems to cross over many Guzzi models. I half wonder if everyone doesn't EVENTUALLY experience it.
But yes, not every no start IS this.
I concur one should try to understand and fix the actual problem when anything like this happens...
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Does anybody know if this fix is applicable to the Norge?"
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Does anybody know if this fix is applicable to the Norge?"
Yes, and actually I suspect all CARC bikes, but definitely Breva and Norge
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I honestly believe the problem is caused by the factory not understanding how the starter solenoid works.
If you look at the wiring diagram for any Guzzi, focus in on the starter soleniod. It shows only one coil in the solenoid, from trigger terminal to the case (chassis).
If you measure the resistance from the trigger terminal to the case it's about 1.05 Ohms. Using Ohms law that equates to just over 11 Amps at 12 Volts and that's what you will read if you power it up with an ammeter in series.
But the solenoid will never work, it will just sit there
What the factory seem to overlook there's a second coil inside the solenoid, this coil is wound using heavy wire and it goes from the trigger terminal not to the case but the load terminal where it's connected to the chassis via the motor windings. If you measure the circuit through this winding to chassis it measures 0.25 Ohms which at 12 Volts equates to 48 Amps. It's this heavy current (plus the 11 through the other coil) that does the grunt work of engaging the starter and also causes "Startus Interuptus"
While the bike is all nice and new, the switch contacts are pristine and all the intermediate joints are perfect it works just fine, ten years down the road the switch contacts have built up a little resistance a little bit of corrosion on some of the joints combined with the resistance of the meters of wire and the current drops back to a point where it's a fraction of what it was and all you get is the dreaded click.
Install the MPH fix or DIY which Kev M did such a good job of explaining and your Guzzi starter will work better than the day it left the factory.
It's bad design that causes the problem, plain and simple :violent1:
You are not making a work around, you are making an improvement.
BTW, the early spine frame V11s are wired much better starter wise, the relay is direct from the battery through a fuse, you would have thought the factory would have learned something from that.
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I honestly believe the problem is caused by the factory not understanding how the starter solenoid works.
If you look at the wiring diagram for any Guzzi, focus in on the starter soleniod. It shows only one coil in the solenoid, from trigger terminal to the case (chassis).
If you measure the resistance from the trigger terminal to the case it's about 1.05 Ohms. Using Ohms law that equates to just over 11 Amps at 12 Volts and that's what you will read if you power it up with an ammeter in series.
But the solenoid will never work, it will just sit there
What the factory seem to overlook there's a second coil inside the solenoid, this coil is wound using heavy wire and it goes from the trigger terminal not to the case but the load terminal where it's connected to the chassis via the motor windings. If you measure the circuit through this winding to chassis it measures 0.25 Ohms which at 12 Volts equates to 48 Amps. It's this heavy current that does the grunt work of engaging the starter and also causes "Startus Interuptus"
Hey Roy,
SInce you and Wayne seem to be the big electricity gurus here... perhaps one of you can answer my question...
Now that I have cut the yellow wire and put in the patch.. I have this yellow wire that is powered on thru the ignition...
Could I wire a led or hid running light (perhaps one of the caliper mounts or some such) to this wire? it would be on any timethe ignition is on, correct? Will that pull too much juioce thru the ignition switch? If I did this, how bright of a light could I run and would I need to put inline something-or-nother in the line between the yellow wire & the light (can't remember what it's called, but whatever you have to add in line for LED's to work properly)???
I want to add at least one driving light, for my own visibility in daylight, and to augment my headlights at night... but I don't want to add any switches to my bars or risk leaving it on and draining my battery???
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Yes, without thinking too much you must have at least 5 Amps available on that wire, that will give you some serious light.
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If those 5 amps are what you get, figure on a 3800 lumen LED bright.
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Old thread, I know, but the pictures in this one seem to illustrate the "yellow wire" fix the best.
I just put a new MotoBatt battery in my 08 Norge and cleaned all related wire terminals. Long story, but I recently re-purchased this bike after selling it 7 years ago. It has 24k miles on it now. When I try to start it, there's a loud click. So I think it's the solenoid engaging rather than the starter relay activating. I was planning on doing the "yellow wire" fix, but I think a prior owner has already done that. See the picture below. There's what appears to be an aftermarket inline 15 amp mini fuse with red wires going from the battery's positive terminal to the white plastic plug for the relay. Does this look like the yellow wire fix to you??? Is that the starter relay? I took off the right side plastic panel and didn't see any other relays that look like that. The relay wasn't tucked into any holder, it's just loose in the battery storage area.
A multimeter showed the battery having a 12.82v charge at rest, then 12.4 with the key on, then 12.3 when pressing the starter button. I haven't measured any voltage at the starter/solenoid because I haven't ventured to take off any plastic down there to expose it. If the yellow wire fix has been done, what are the next things to try? Clean contacts at the starter/solenoid? Overhaul my ignition switch (scary to me)?
I saw the youtube video of someone who put a starter button switch under his seat, presumably with wires going directly from the positive battery terminal to the starter/solenoid. Regardless of fixing this any other way, I'd like to install this setup so I never get stuck on the side of the road due to startus interruptus. What wire gauge and what fuse rating would you use for this setup? 10 gauge/30 amp? What terminal would it attach to at the starter/solenoid?
(https://i.ibb.co/djBfR2K/myWiring.jpg) (https://ibb.co/djBfR2K)
free google pictures (https://imgbb.com/)
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It looks like the MPH fix to me. I continued to have some intermittent problems until I replaced my Motobatt 16 with a Yuasa YTX20CH-BS. Keep the earth from the starter to the engine block clean, too.
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Yes that's an MPH fix.
There is one other wire that MPH don't address , the one from the relay (3) pin 5 to the spade connector at the solenoid part of item (25)
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif, how it shows the starter is nonsense BTW, there are actually 2 coils in every Guzzi starter, the factory choose to ignore that.
That wire should be at least 18 gauge, preferably 16, it will pass 50 Amps on a good day.
The more current you can cram into the solenoid the better it works. The fuse in the fix should be a 20 Amp, a 15 may blow.
I have a sister bike, a 2 valve Griso, the starter engaged 3 x as fast with a slight larger wire, I went to the trouble of measuring it just to quantify the improvement.
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You could wire a button under the seat but it would need to be rated for about 50 Amps, I just ran that wire past the battery so I can touch it on the terminal if I need to, don't ask me why.
Remove the cover over the starter and make sure the spade connector is tightly gripping the spade terminal. smear sone Vaseline on the connection and also all the battery terminals.
Check where the main battery ground connects to the gearbox, clean and grease that too.
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I bought one of these when I had a Breva. Still carry it in my kit as most bikes lost kick starters long ago and it also charges phones. Have even started cars with it (but you only if they're just weak, not totally dead). Dozens of them on Amazon or eBay.
(https://i.ibb.co/M1607Rv/71bua-O8-Mef-L-AC-SL1500.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M1607Rv)
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With my 08 Norge not being able to start since installing a new MotoBatt battery, I tested with a multimeter and found the following:
(https://i.ibb.co/rvb4Zbw/chart1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rvb4Zbw)
Numbers in right columns are volts, "sol" = solenoid. The 3.2 voltage drop in yellow isn't good. I wanted to measure from the solenoid's spade terminal ("s" term) to the battery pos terminal, but haven't yet. Need to add a test lead onto the spade connector.
I charged up the old Yuasa battery (YTX20CH-BS) and swapped batteries. It fired right up. Called Battery Mart and got an exchange approved for that Yausa which is slightly cheaper so will get a refund.
Also bought a new Bosch starter from Harpers in MO. Will take a look at the old one until the new one arrives. Have been cleaning wiring terminals.
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With my 08 Norge not being able to start since installing a new MotoBatt battery, I tested with a multimeter and found the following:
(https://i.ibb.co/rvb4Zbw/chart1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rvb4Zbw)
Numbers in right columns are volts, "sol" = solenoid. The 3.2 voltage drop in yellow isn't good. I wanted to measure from the solenoid's spade terminal ("s" term) to the battery pos terminal, but haven't yet. Need to add a test lead onto the spade connector.
I charged up the old Yuasa battery (YTX20CH-BS) and swapped batteries. It fired right up. Called Battery Mart and got an exchange approved for that Yausa which is slightly cheaper so will get a refund.
Also bought a new Bosch starter from Harpers in MO. Will take a look at the old one until the new one arrives. Have been cleaning wiring terminals.
You are obviously familiar with electrical tools so I say don't waste your money on the MPH fix, roll your own bypass but please upgrade the other wire from relay to solenoid as well, it passes 40+ amps for a split second while the second coil is energized.
I think you are saying the yellow wire is 3.8 Volts Low while starting, most of that Voltage drop is in the ignition switch. The whole point of bypassing the switch with a direct feed is to eliminate the Voltage drop and provide the solenoid with the energy it deserves.
There will also be considerable Voltage drop from the relay to the solenoid, that wire is woefully undersize for the current it carries, 40+ Amps while the solenoid is stroking, change that for a 16 Gauge. Just clip it a few inches from the relay and splice on the larger wire.
It seems you are familiar with electrical tools, don't waste your money on a tailor-made fix, roll your own.
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If you are worried about the battery OR the starter test it by running a new wire from the solenoid spade connector and touching it on the battery that will show you how it's supposed to crank.
Make sure you have the bike in Neutral and pull the clutch for safety, leave the key off you are just testing it for cranking.
Note: Fixing Startus Interuptus doesn't make the starter crank harder, it just makes it engage properly so it can start to crank.
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Every now and then Guzzi forget to wire in Startus Interuptus and wire the direct starter feed for example a 2001 VII Sport or the 2 Valve Griso but they always skimp on the wire from relay to solenoid.
My Griso engages the starter 3x as fast with that wire upgraded.
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I was saying with the multimeter's positive test lead connected to the starter case and the multimeter's negative lead connected to the negative battery terminal, there's a 3.2 volt drop after turning the key and hearing the click noise. This when it wouldn't start with the MotoBatt battery.
So you're saying I should replace the wire going from the spade terminal on the solenoid to the starter relay with at least a 16 gauge wire, correct? Do you know what color that wire is, or how to identify it in the relay? Earlier you said "pin 5", how to you identify that? I guess you just leave the old wire in place and trim the loose ends, then run the new, bigger wire wherever it makes sense to.
In an earlier post you confirmed that I do have the MPH fix installed. I did switch the 15 amp fuse in it to a 20 amp fuse.
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If I did want to install a button under the seat to ensure starting, would one of the button's wires go to the spade terminal on the solenoid and the other go to the positive battery terminal? What gauge wire would you use for that? Would you put a fuse in it? If so, what rating and on what side of the button (battery or solenoid)?
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I was saying with the multimeter's positive test lead connected to the starter case and the multimeter's negative lead connected to the negative battery terminal, there's a 3.2 volt drop after turning the key and hearing the click noise. This when it wouldn't start with the MotoBatt battery.
If I did want to install a button under the seat to ensure starting, would one of the button's wires go to the spade terminal on the solenoid and the other go to the positive battery terminal? What gauge wire would you use for that? Would you put a fuse in it? If so, what rating and on what side of the button (battery or solenoid)?
Sorry I misunderstood.
If you get a Voltage difference from the starter case to the battery negative that's pointing out that you have a bad ground, the way they often connect to the gearbox behind the starter is not the best
it can get a oxide layer. Scrape the connection point and apply some grease there to keep oxygen away. You could also perhaps run another jumper to the starter bolt or one of the 6mm gearbox bolts.
I always use Vaseline on any connections especially the battery terminals, it's possible to see the full 12 Volts lost across the oxide layer between a lug and terminal.
The MPH fix does nothing to address the undersize wire from the relay to the solenoid.I think the contacts have larger terminals one wire is yellow, I think the other is Orange/Green
The other pair of relay terminals will be the coil, you can measure that with your meter somewhere around 100 Ohms I'm guessing.
Just cut them a couple of inches away and extend it with a larger cable.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif
To install a button it's really in parallel with the relay contact so it could run to the relay contacts as well then it would be fused by the MPH fuse. But here's the problem, the relay contact is rated about 100 Amps inrush, most buttons would fry if you tried to pass
more than a few amps. You should be able to connect the button to the short wires in the MPH fix so you don't have to break into the loom.
On my Griso when I replaced the Orange/Green wire I left it a bit long so it passes by the battery, I have a bare spot covered by heat shrink so I can touch it on the terminal.
I have used this twice, both times I fell over at zero speed and the tipover switch prevented it re-starting, cranking the starter must shake it back into contact.
It's also handy being able to spin the engine without the injectors firing e.g. while testing compression or establishing pressure after an oil change.
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Alternate Start Button/Relay
If you look at the schematic I attached you will see it shows the start relay (3) has 12 Volts on one end of the coil pin 1 fed from the Injection Main Relay (29) via a Red/Black wire.
Pin 2 of the Start Relay goes to terminal 1 of the ECU, if everything is OK for a start the ECU grounds it's pin 1 causing the Start relay to energise, you could wire a small button between the relay pin 2 and chassis
that would crank the bike. Again I would tap into the short wire provided by MPH, any small Normally Open button would do there, the coil current is only about 100 milliamps.
How long before you accidentally try to start with the bike in gear?
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Remember pin 3 of the Start relay on your bike is powered directly from the battery via the MPH fuse. Just for kicks trace the old yellow wire back to its source, see if you can spot the cause of "Startus Interuptus"
Look at relay (29). what's special about it?
Why does that have special significance when using a Motobat battery?
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Yesterday I replaced the wire from the spade terminal at the starter to the pin on the starter relay. I just did a continuity test to determine which wire it was on the relay before cutting the wire by the spade terminal fitting. For me it was the yellow/orange wire. I ran a heavier gauge wire to both spades, soldered them on the spades and used heat shrink. On the solenoid spade I soldered an additional wire on it and ran it up to where the battery was and terminated it with a wire nut. Guess I'll forgo installing a push button since I can just touch the wire to the pos battery terminal to start it if need be. I probably didn't need to order a new Bosch starter and Yasua battery since I went on a ride yesterday with about 4 stops that required starting the bike, and it started right up each time. I'm still going to install the new starter and battery though just for piece of mind. Thanks very much for your help with this!