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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: canuguzzi on June 04, 2015, 03:21:20 PM
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In California, lane splitting is legal and while I don't unless it is miles to my destination and the traffic is stop and go, plenty of others do, routinely.
If you ride on some of the freeways, in the #1 lane, sled drivers tend to move over even with no motorcycles present and sort of create a lane splitting lane for lack of a better description. What will the autodriver car do? I figure it would just maintain its position in the center of the lane but what does the car do if it is in lane #2 and a bike comes up from the rear between lane 1 and 2, does it move over toward the right or what?
Seeing how the guesstimates are these things will be out and about in a few years its something to think about. I know they are around now but not in any numbers other than small test samples.
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While I can't answer the questions you've posed, I think the statement "In California, lane splitting is legal ..." is wrong. Lane splitting is not legal in California, but on the other hand it is not specifically illegal. So, police tend to look the other way if the maneuver is performed safely. There is currently a bill in the state legislature proposing to legalize lane splitting, and if it passes, lane splitting will become lawful.
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In California, lane splitting is legal and while I don't unless it is miles to my destination and the traffic is stop and go, plenty of others do, routinely.
If you ride on some of the freeways, in the #1 lane, sled drivers tend to move over even with no motorcycles present and sort of create a lane splitting lane for lack of a better description. What will the autodriver car do? I figure it would just maintain its position in the center of the lane but what does the car do if it is in lane #2 and a bike comes up from the rear between lane 1 and 2, does it move over toward the right or what?
Seeing how the guesstimates are these things will be out and about in a few years its something to think about. I know they are around now but not in any numbers other than small test samples.
June 4, 2015. Bookmark this post. "Self-driving cars" will NOT be out and about on the public roads threatening your motorcycle in a few years, any more than the personal jet-packs, backpack helicopters, flying cars, personal spacecraft, or any of the other stuff that we've been promised in every "What's New" column in Popular Science for the last 80 years has happened ....
Lannis
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My thoughts on it...
I'd imagine that the self driving cars treat motorcycles like any other vehicle getting close to them. Imagine a car riding next to a self driving car (SDC). If that car tries to move into the lane of the SDC, the SDC will probably perform some sort of maneuver to avoid collision. I would think that it handles a motorcycle riding up next to it in a similar fashion. Seeing as Google is based in CA, I'd imagine they are working to come up with code that will properly account for typical motorcycle behavior.
The bigger long term concern imo is what will happen to Motorcycles when SDCs are the norm? If Google can keep their accident numbers down low, you've now got some pretty easy insurance. With fewer accidents in SDCs, the insurance rates will likely drop low for them. With that being the case, people driving manual cars and people driving motorcycles will have fewer people paying big money into the insurance pot. This will likely cause a rise in insurance costs for anyone not in an SDC. Eventually most drivers will opt for the SDC and that will just leave motorcyclist and the folks who really love driving.
Its not a certainty, but I'd say its a definite possibility. That said, if all the cars are self driving, I'd imagine motorcycle accidents would drop considerably. So there's a silver lining there!
RE: popular science... I'd guess that SDCs will be on the roads in strong numbers within the next 25 years. Seems far away but at the rate people buy new cars its not that many car purchases away.
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Self driving cars are imminent. Even if they cost $150,000. What if a taxi company didn't have to pay any drivers, or any of the other costs associated with having an employee.
A $150,000 selfdriving car would pay for itself in 2 years. It could work 24 hours a day.
Selfdriving city transit busses. Coming to a town near you.
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While I can't answer the questions you've posed, I think the statement "In California, lane splitting is legal ..." is wrong. Lane splitting is not legal in California, but on the other hand it is not specifically illegal. So, police tend to look the other way if the maneuver is performed safely. There is currently a bill in the state legislature proposing to legalize lane splitting, and if it passes, lane splitting will become lawful.
Lane splitting is legal. What the proposed law does is set limits. There is a difference. What we have right now is a free for all, anything goes and it is up to the police to decide if the lane splitting is safe or not.
What the law will do is clarify under what conditions and in what manner lane splitting is okay.
Say you're lane splitting at 5 mph. The police can arbitrarily ticket you and you have little fall back in the law to argue it was being done safely. If the law passes, the police will have to prove that your speed was excessive for the conditions while lane splitting.
The police aren't looking the other way, they just have no guidance in the law regarding the limits. Very soon, they will have and then so will all drivers.
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I don't see any reason to panic. The main issue is going to be conspicuity. Right now we're mostly concerned about not being seen by vacuous or distracted drivers. In a SDV environment, being seen by the controlling computer is actually an easier task: a small radar reflector and some kind of flashing light (maybe an infrared light?) ought to cover both radar and "visual" systems like Subaru's. That might reduce the incidence of cars turning left into us, rear-ending us and moving into our lanes. In the long run vehicles will probably have transponders broadcasting vectors computed through GPS, and will be able to calculate convergence probabilities. Yamaha probably already has that capability in its six-axis motion sensor.
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This has been doing the rounds of various motorcycle forums with those who buy catering packs of foil on a regular basis predicting armageddon. Even if the self driving vehicle doesn't see us I don't think it will be a problem (remembering the sensors see pedestrians stray dogs/cats light poles recognise the difference between stop sings and give way/Yield etc etc ). Why? it will be completely and utterly predictable. It won't forget to cancel indicators try and drink eat and use a phone so driving becomes a subtask.
If you want to have a paranoid whinge anyway go ahead!
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Dunno , the technology to implement SDCs already exists, is not very expensive and they don't require any skill or training to operate. All of those other contraptions required both new tech and or training . Wasn't all that long ago that washing machines took a serious level of commitment to operate , now , not so much , no one is complaining .
Dusty
The good thing is, there's no need for arguing about it or He Said She Said. All we have to do is live a little while longer, and see.
Lannis
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This has been doing the rounds of various motorcycle forums with those who buy catering packs of foil on a regular basis predicting armageddon. Even if the self driving vehicle doesn't see us I don't think it will be a problem (remembering the sensors see pedestrians stray dogs/cats light poles recognise the difference between stop sings and give way/Yield etc etc ). Why? it will be completely and utterly predictable. It won't forget to cancel indicators try and drink eat and use a phone so driving becomes a subtask.
If you want to have a paranoid whinge anyway go ahead!
Where is all that coming from? No one is panicking, its just a topic for discussion.
Lots of thin skins around here today. Must be laundry day. :boozing:
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Self driving cars are imminent. Even if they cost $150,000. What if a taxi company didn't have to pay any drivers, or any of the other costs associated with having an employee.
A $150,000 selfdriving car would pay for itself in 2 years. It could work 24 hours a day.
Selfdriving city transit busses. Coming to a town near you.
This is EXACTLY what I told someone interested in training to become a long-haul trucker the other daY! Dude, why would you go to school for that? That job will not exist in 8-10yrs!
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I heard a very interesting discussion awhile back on Radio 4 in the UK re self driving cars
It was a philosophical discussion regarding the algorithms that control them and in the event that something unexpected happens (a child runs in to the road for example) would the car select child or wall and whether or not these would be programmable options for the humans in the car?
I'm not sure automated cars will be on our roads too soon
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I heard a very interesting discussion awhile back on Radio 4 in the UK re self driving cars
It was a philosophical discussion regarding the algorithms that control them and in the event that something unexpected happens (a child runs in to the road for example) would the car select child or wall and whether or not these would be programmable options for the humans in the car?
I'm not sure automated cars will be on our roads too soon
I'm sure they won't, and for exactly the same reason.
We'll accept irrational and bad decision-making by HUMANS that costs lives (DWI, texting while driving) but no one will accept a "smash the car or kill the child - or is that a dog?" decision programmed into a computer.
Lannis
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I'm one of those folks buying foil. Run it through the shredder, pack it into a Sch 40 pipe with a CO2 trigger or ram air pressurization. Aim to the rear, activate and watch the fun.
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And what wall would that be ? Humans can't react nearly as fast as a computer , unfortunately a child that runs on to any highway that has walls is probably gonna get ran over . Drivers simply aren't quick enough to prevent those types of accidents . Besides , most young folks are already willing to turn over the wheel to a computer , most really don't care about operating a motor vehicle .
Dusty
95% of the operation of airliners have been taken over by computers and unfortunately the result has been a shocking decline in piloting ability as in airmanship.
Want to forget how to drive, stay alert and think ahead of the situation? Put a computer in charge and just sit back and enjoy the ride.
m
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Computers operating vehicles sounds scary but as we know,humans don't exactly operate vehicles very well either.
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This is mostly speculation of course. I suspect the frustrations we encounter with SDV will have more to do with regimentation than with new dangers. Imagine you're on a two or three-lane freeway and all the cars are moving at the speed limit, neither faster nor slower, because that's how they're programmed. A row of cars ahead happen to be synched up line abreast. There's no way to pass without lane-splitting and that's illegal in your state. Are you now condemned to follow meekly at the speed limit until one of the cars exits?
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And Insurance Fraud. One of the reasons for those dash cameras becoming popular in countries with people that stage traffic accidents in order to sue for compensation.
That kind of person will actively try to find ways to overcome the manufacturers safety features in order to stage an accident - in order to create a nuisance lawsuit and big liability claim.
Maybe the automatic vehicles computers can use a "Judge Dredd" application, kind of like a legal Trunk Monkey, to deal with any interference.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/green-Hornet-Black-Beauty-11_zpsozbq4i5e.jpg)
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Well. there are currently autonomous self driving cars in CA but limited to certain areas in city areas with a max speed of 35MPH. these are google vehicles with no steering wheel or controls so totally dependent on the guidance system.
One thing I read recently is that all the self driving vehicles currently being tested rely on a map to indicate where everything is including stop signs how many lanes there are, etc. If a stop sign gets added somewhere and the map the vehicle uses isn't updated it will go right through. Another example would be if there is a road crew that closes a lane, the vehicle would only see this as an obstruction in the road and could respond in an unpredictable manner.
what this means is that before we let loose all these cars without drivers some kind of system will need to be put in place so that any change of any kind made to any road will need to be instantaneously updated to whatever map database is used.
There are also autonomous semis being tested on highways as we speak. it's very possible that we will see these before cars. Limited to expressways for long-hauls perhaps, but there is a shortage of long haul drivers and eliminating driver pay could be a big incentive for a large trucking company.
I have no idea how they treat motorcycles but suspect it would be no different from another vehicle. From a lane splitting perspective, I think they could program the vehicle to stay to the left in the lane and watch for bikes but if one came up doing 40MPH faster than traffic, which isn't uncommon currently, it's hard to say how it would react.
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I'm going to get a self-driving motorcycle and let it communicate with the self-driving cars. They can figure it out for themselves :tongue:
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Follow the money!
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/most-common-job-2014_zps9vkmkpex.png)
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/02/05/382664837/map-the-most-common-job-in-every-state
There are a lot of problems with the above map (see article) - many more jobs in the other fields were not counted properly, but the gist of the matter is that there is a lot of money spent on delivery that can be cut with AI and available robotics. This going to eventually happen to all services because us humans are getting just too expensive and troublesome! :boozing:
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BBBbbut who would get the taxi tip? Who could you road rage against? It would be so frustrating to give the finger with no one to see it.
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The computers would call each other names and question their ancestry
"Wassa matta whichu, you runnin' Windows?"
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(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/johnnycab_zpsblvjrs7e.jpg)
Enjoy the ride. bzzzt.
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According to google *none* of the 12 accidents so far were due to the autonomous car. All were do to other vehicles striking the google car except one that was due to a human driver in control of a google car that rear ended another vehicle (did he forget he was driving?).
What they are not saying or taking in to account is how many accidents were caused by the autonomous cars, whether or not they were involved in the actual accident.
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Lane splitting is not illegal. What the proposed law does is make it legal and set limits.
Fixed that for you.
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Computers operating vehicles sounds scary but as we know,humans don't exactly operate vehicles very well either.
Considering the endless number of variables, I'd say that humans do a great job.
I can't imagine the amount of processing power that will be required to have a truly autonomous automobile.
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The google car will be pretty cool once widely implemented. You won't even need to ride in it! Just send it to the store and have them put yer stuff in the trunk! And traffic coordination? The cars will know where all the other cars are so that merging onto the highway isn't the bloodbath of profanity it is now.
I do wonder how these smartypants cars are going to affect my motorcycles.
But there was a time when autos started using roads full of horses......
Hunter
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The google car will be pretty cool once widely implemented.
I won't care. I'll be travelling in style. Above it all. In my Moller Sky Car!
(http://www.technovelgy.com/graphics/content08/moller-skycar.jpg)
But there was a time when autos started using roads full of horses......
The thing is, though, both horses and autos are operated by humans.
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Fixed that for you.
No to go too far off topic but that didn't fix it. When we need a law to tell us what is legal instead of what is not, we're in deep doo-doo.
There are no laws that state specifically I can walk on the sidewalk, go out onto my property and yell at the crows. There are laws that say I cannot walk on the freeways. The premise of your fix is that we are not allowed to do anything some law say we cannot do, that is contrary how laws work.
Lane splitting is legal in the absence of a law stating it is not. The same works for helmets. Are there any states where it is illegal to ride without a helmet and no law exists stating such? There is not one.
To date, not one single motorcyclist in California has been ticketed and found guilty of violating any law for lane splitting, all have been tickets for doing so in an unsafe manner. It's a very big difference. No one has to prove what they are doing is legal, it is up to some authority to prove it is illegal.
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No to go too far off topic but that didn't fix it. When we need a law to tell us what is legal instead of what is not, we're in deep doo-doo.
There are no laws that state specifically I can walk on the sidewalk, go out onto my property and yell at the crows. There are laws that say I cannot walk on the freeways. The premise of your fix is that we are not allowed to do anything some law say we cannot do, that is contrary how laws work.
Lane splitting is legal in the absence of a law stating it is not. The same works for helmets. Are there any states where it is illegal to ride without a helmet and no law exists stating such? There is not one.
To date, not one single motorcyclist in California has been ticketed and found guilty of violating any law for lane splitting, all have been tickets for doing so in an unsafe manner. It's a very big difference. No one has to prove what they are doing is legal, it is up to some authority to prove it is illegal.
Just the fact that you use "lane splitting" instead of "lane sharing" shows how convoluted and complicated things like this can be.
I've followed the California Lane Sharing news and talk over the years, and it's been interesting.
While I agree with you that something "not illegal" should logically be "legal", I don't think it's that cut-and-dry on California's Lane Sharing issues.
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There are also autonomous semis being tested on highways as we speak. it's very possible that we will see these before cars. Limited to expressways for long-hauls perhaps, but there is a shortage of long haul drivers and eliminating driver pay could be a big incentive for a large trucking company.
This seems to be the wrong solution to the problem. We've had long-haul rail transport for what, 150 years or more?
The best solution to long haul freight transport is intermodal rail + trucks, were the trucks haul the containers to the final destination.
Rail is way more fuel efficient than trucks. Moving more freight via rail would be good for the environment, and ease congestion on our highways.
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This seems to be the wrong solution to the problem. We've had long-haul rail transport for what, 150 years or more?
The best solution to long haul freight transport is intermodal rail + trucks, were the trucks haul the containers to the final destination.
Rail is way more fuel efficient than trucks. Moving more freight via rail would be good for the environment, and ease congestion on our highways.
Yep. Three guys running a train can haul as much freight as 100 guys driving trucks, with trucks for the final 100 miles to where the stuff goes.
It hurts every time someone here celebrates a "Rails to Trails" conversion. I hope we'll be converting them back someday and getting the big trucks off the road, along with the tires, diesel fuel, and danger to cars and bikes .....
Lannis
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In the long run vehicles will probably have transceivers broadcasting vectors computed through GPS, and will be able to calculate convergence probabilities. Yamaha probably already has that capability in its six-axis motion sensor.
That will not be an unalloyed blessing. It means that the Authorities will be able to monitor your speed at all times. Is that what we really want?
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Considering the endless number of variables, I'd say that humans do a great job.
I can't imagine the amount of processing power that will be required to have a truly autonomous automobile.
Processing power, endless sensor, and very complex software --- WRITTEN BY HUMANS.
As a software developer, I can say, there is no such thing as perfect software.
With regard to autopilot systems in airplanes. The crew are trained to constantly monitor the aircraft while be flown on autopilot, and to take control immediately if anything goes amiss. Do we really trust the average distracted American SDV driver passenger to do this? They won't. Please will embrace SDV's so that they can tweet catch up on facebook, and watch all the latest "FAIL" videos. What about alcohol? I can see that many people will use SDV's to get them home from the bar. That's a whole legal area right there that doesn't yet exist. Will it be legal to drink and "drive" if you have a SDV?
I think some of the driver assistant safety systems currently being offered in cars, such as park distance warnings, following distance warnings, lane departure "assist", etc could all be helpful in dealing with the distracted driver problem -- which, IMHO, is the biggest problem on the roads today.
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That will not be an unalloyed blessing. It means that the Authorities will be able to monitor your speed at all times. Is that what we really want?
That's make me wish I lived close to a track that offered frequent track days.
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Considering the endless number of variables, I'd say that humans do a great job.
I can't imagine the amount of processing power that will be required to have a truly autonomous automobile.
Statistically, the number of motor vehicle deaths have declined in this country but I would guess that this has more to do with vastly improved vehicle safety equipment than better driving capabilities of the general public.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year
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Statistically, the number of motor vehicle deaths have declined in this country but I would guess that this has more to do with vastly improved vehicle safety equipment than better driving capabilities of the general public.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year
I got behind the wheel of a 1951 Mercury the other day, and although I'm not a big fan of regulated stuff in general, I will say that seeing that solid steel steering column poking out of that solid steel dash and floor pointed right at my heart, with NO seat belt of any kind, definitely gave me the feeling that even my little Festiva would help me survive in an accident more than the 4000 pounds of mass in that old car ..... !
Lannis
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Processing power, endless sensor, and very complex software --- WRITTEN BY HUMANS.
As a software developer, I can say, there is no such thing as perfect software.
With regard to autopilot systems in airplanes. The crew are trained to constantly monitor the aircraft while be flown on autopilot, and to take control immediately if anything goes amiss. Do we really trust the average distracted American SDV driver passenger to do this? They won't. Please will embrace SDV's so that they can tweet catch up on facebook, and watch all the latest "FAIL" videos. What about alcohol? I can see that many people will use SDV's to get them home from the bar. That's a whole legal area right there that doesn't yet exist. Will it be legal to drink and "drive" if you have a SDV?
I think some of the driver assistant safety systems currently being offered in cars, such as park distance warnings, following distance warnings, lane departure "assist", etc could all be helpful in dealing with the distracted driver problem -- which, IMHO, is the biggest problem on the roads today.
That's not like flying the machine, and if you don't fly the machine then you lose your piloting skills. Recent accidents have shown that not being proficient in flying skills have been a major factor in cause + not really understanding the highly complex FMS (flight management systems) can confuse uh.. the pilot or uh..the flight technician!
You want distraction, give them a computer to operate everything.
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I got behind the wheel of a 1951 Mercury the other day, and although I'm not a big fan of regulated stuff in general, I will say that seeing that solid steel steering column poking out of that solid steel dash and floor pointed right at my heart, with NO seat belt of any kind, definitely gave me the feeling that even my little Festiva would help me survive in an accident more than the 4000 pounds of mass in that old car ..... !
Lannis
True.
Of course with the way new cars collapse, that Mercury might be OK with hitting the Festiva,etc. as the newer vehicle would act as the shock absorber for the Merc. I'm sure the occupants of the modern car might not enjoy that experience.
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Regarding the efficiency of trains for freight: The chief problem is that freight trains get stacked up behind slow coal trains. 15 mph is NOT an acceptable speed for interstate freight.
If the speed were better it would make sense to put whole trucks on flatcars, as they do crossing the alps in Europe. See http://www.solartoday-digital.org/solartoday/201004?pg=33#pg33
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Very interesting thread. I would like to add a few points.
First, regarding insurance. Insurance rates are based on actuarial experience; no experience with a device or product or whatever means high insurance costs because the insurance company has no idea how to price the coverage. Therefore, they cover their ass and charge a bundle. Right now, it's all experimental and Google is rich enough to self-insure so liability coverage is not a problem. Once SDC and the like starts to go mainstream, that will all change. Consider the current situation: If you cause a collision, then it's your fault and everybody knows who to blame and who's responsible and who to sue. If you're not driving the car and are merely a passenger, then who's to blame and who to sue? (This is America, right? Anybody can sue anybody for anything, right? I mean it's in the Constitution, right? Am I right or am I right?) Will it be the software company that wrote the autonomous driving package that bears the burden of liability? The company responsible for operating the self-driving roadway? I can tell you who (based on history) ... the company with the deepest pockets, that's who. And also regarding insurance, who ever heard of insurance rates going down? In the industry, not going up so fast is what they call going down. But the previous poster was right; as fewer people drive their own cars, the insurance rates charged to those people will skyrocket until only the richest of the rich can drive their own car just because of the cost of insurance. So people will be forced into SDC because they cannot afford to insure their own car, and that will happen very fast once the SDC are generally available and IF THEY WORK! Imagine for just a moment a brave new world where auto collisions are incredibly rare. Far fewer police or EMS. Hospital emergency rooms would be half empty. Auto repair shops would practically disappear. The list is long and underlies a hefty chunk of our economy.
Second point regards the use of transponders ... you will want one. A transponder will mean the SDC really knows you're there, not maybe knows you're there or you hope it knows you're there or it's supposed to or anything like that. A transponder means that 18-wheeler with eighty-eight thousand pounds of live pigs doing 80 MPH will unquestionably recognize and record the presence of your moped at midnight in the rain as you're riding home from your third job. Imagine if you could nail something onto your bike that meant an entire class of vehicles would never, ever run into you. Transponders will be lifesavers in the brave new world.
I can hardly wait.
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Transponders will be lifesavers in the brave new world.
I can hardly wait.
Trying to decide if a description of a country with "self-driving cars" as a Brave New World is ironic or a Freudian slip ... !
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Sometimes my GPS gets indigestion & can't find a satellite. Other times my cell phone can't get any reception. I wonder what would happen if the SDC's couldn't get acknowledgement by the satellites or cell towers.. . .and no driver control.
They'd just sit in one place with the hour-glass spinning on the display in the dash waiting for the clouds to part.
So long as the dashes aren't made by the same clowns that cocked up the 1200Sport dashes we'll probably be OK. :cheesy:
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Sometimes my GPS gets indigestion & can't find a satellite. Other times my cell phone can't get any reception. I wonder what would happen if the SDC's couldn't get acknowledgement by the satellites or cell towers.. . .and no driver control.
They'd just sit in one place with the hour-glass spinning on the display in the dash waiting for the clouds to part.
So long as the dashes aren't made by the same clowns that cocked up the 1200Sport dashes we'll probably be OK. :cheesy:
They have all the maps downloaded and can operate for quite a while on inertial guidance and radar and cameras. They do not rely solely on GPS.
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They have all the maps downloaded and can operate for quite a while on inertial guidance and radar and cameras.
Sounds like a fantastic fail-safe mode. On I-66 with 70 MPH bumper-to-bumper traffic, if they lose the GPS signal, they'll just run on what they remembered and dead-reckoning until it comes back on, then they'll re-integrate and continue without even a blip.
Oh my lord. You guys .....
I'm sorry. I keeping saying and thinking that I'll shut up. But the fantasies just keep getting wilder and wilder. NOW, not only do I not think that this technology will be on the real roads in real cars "in the next few years", I don't think any of us will live to see it and say "I told you so".
All right. I'm really really done now and will stop peeing in the Back to the Future discussion.
Lannis
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As long as Luap's servers hold, we will keep reminding you Lannis. But therein lies the problem...problem.. .... problem.......probl em........
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As long as Luap's servers hold, we will keep reminding you Lannis. But therein lies the problem...problem.. .... problem.......probl em........
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: good one!
Daaaiiissyy Daaaiiissyy giiivve meeee your ans 1010001110101000100 0111001001 stack overflow at 82C5008DE oh SHIIIII - BOOM!
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This seems to be the wrong solution to the problem. We've had long-haul rail transport for what, 150 years or more?
The best solution to long haul freight transport is intermodal rail + trucks, were the trucks haul the containers to the final destination.
Rail is way more fuel efficient than trucks. Moving more freight via rail would be good for the environment, and ease congestion on our highways.
My other job, the one other than moderator here, is in transportation logistics. Right now, rail hauls more tonnage than it ever has, despite a reduction in the number of miles of rail in The USA. Right now, rail transports more containers and trailers than it ever has. You might be amazed at the numbers of containers and trailers travelling by rail in the USA. There are huge regional intermodal facilities in the large metros all over the USA. For intermodal to be efficient and cost effective, the transit needs to be 500+ miles, and the freight cannot be time-sensitive.
For short-haul and time-sensitive frieght, Over The Road is the only way.
From the intermodal terminal, to destinations within a few hundred miles of the terminal, Over The Road is the only way.
Since you live in New England, you are going to see a lot of those trucks on the road. The container or trailer you're looking at may have travelled by rail from Long Beach or Miami or Fort Worth to Philadelphia, then was put on the road to make its destination.
Yep. Three guys running a train can haul as much freight as 100 guys driving trucks, with trucks for the final 100 miles to where the stuff goes.
It hurts every time someone here celebrates a "Rails to Trails" conversion. I hope we'll be converting them back someday and getting the big trucks off the road, along with the tires, diesel fuel, and danger to cars and bikes .....
Lannis
The big intermodal trails have a conductor and an engineer. A two-man crew. Each piece of rail equipment can carry either two trailers or containers. Your number is off by a factor of two or three for long-haul intermodal trains.
Big trucks will never be off the road. It would require too many miles of rail line, and it would require our time-sensitive world to turn it down a notch. The world will not slow down, so the result will be more trucks on the road, despite the constantly increasing capacity of the railroads' intermodal operations.
The abandoned rail lines are usually abandoned for economic reasons. If the line was in an economically viable location, it would not by abandoned, but taken over by another rail company. The abandoned rights of way either revert to the landowners, or in some rare cases to The State. Those cases are rare, however. IMHO, this was a major screw up of the original grants given the rail roads during the expansion of the 1800s. The rights of way should have been deeded so that they would revert to The States if ever abandoned, and kept available for future rail use. They weren't, so most abandoned rights of way melt back into the landscape and will never be rail roads again.
(http://www.smarttinc.com/email/blog/blog1013/unit-trains-3.jpg)
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And what about all those darn horse and buggies on the roads!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q5Nur642BU
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/horse-buggy-amish_zpsstyhbprg.jpg)
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The abandoned rail lines are usually abandoned for economic reasons. If the line was in an economically viable location, it would not by abandoned, but taken over by another rail company.
You know more about this than I do, so I won't dispute your data or conclusions as things stand today.
But things can change about how fast we "have to" have something versus the cost of getting it there; and something that's not "economically viable" in today's world may be viable tomorrow ....
Lannis
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things can change about how fast we "have to" have something versus the cost of getting it there;
With LEAN and JIT being the standard, rather than the exception, I don't see manufacturers, retailers, and consumers ever being satisfied with later rather than sooner. I don't like it, but that's just the way it is.
something that's not "economically viable" in today's world may be viable tomorrow ....
Hey, I agree. I think it's stupid that abandoned rail lines have been allowed to revert to the owners of the land the rail right of way passes through. I know of at least one case here in Arkansas where a railroad company wanted to rehabilitate and reactivate part of an abandoned line. They had to negotiate sales price of the right of way property with every land owner along the line. There were several land owners who didn't want to sell the right of way to the new railroad. Guess what? The expansion was cut short due to lack of cooperation from some of the land owners. If the land had reverted to The State years ago when it had been abandoned, then the new railroad could've leased the right of way from The State and the land owners would've had no say. But again, it is what it is, and it isn't what it "should be".
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Delrod has an old rail bed on his property really close to his house , not sure he wants a train coming through at 2 AM .
Dusty
True, but his house probably wouldn't be where it is, if the right of way was still held by The State of Kansas.
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Delrod has an old rail bed on his property really close to his house , not sure he wants a train coming through at 2 AM .
Dusty
I like trains; my son has a freight line that goes about 80 yards behind his house, and his little girls get all excited every time a train comes through (only three times a day though).
Lannis ("How often does the train come by?" "So often that you'll never notice it ...")
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True , but he had to put it somewhere .
Dusty
That's an interesting conundrum for my position that all rights of way should be retained by The States.
There is still a line from Pittsburg to Cherokee. The one running behind his place was probably removed because it was not needed. My guess is it was a Mo-Pac branch line that couldn't compete with the KCS main.
I'll have to ask delrod, sometime.
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What seems to be the trend in motorcycling in your neck of the wood? Living in South Central Penna., I see a ton of Harleys everywhere I go and “Ricky Racers”. Also see some Gold Wings and a few Adventure bikes.
I’m into sport touring with my Guzzi 1200 Sport and BMW K75S but that seems to be dropping in popularity.
What do you see gaining or losing in popularity and what is the reasoning behind it? Is there anything cycle manufacturers can produce or do to bring back the masses like in the 1970’s? I believe the average age is going up with fewer young riders taking up the sport.
I drive past the local Honda dealer and they have rows of ATV’s lining their lot but hardly any motorcycles. What’s happening and why?
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Good topic . Noticed lots of HDs this weekend in the Mtns around the Okie camp out , but also saw quite a few Beemers , several Adv bikes , and a fair few Wings . Something I have always been curious about re the increasing average age of MClists. How much of that is due to young folks not entering the sport , or more to do with the fact that we live longer now , and more of us are riding well into our golden years ?
Dusty
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Interesting question - I have to say I have never worried about who is buying what and why, so I ride Guzzi, not the bigger brands. To each their own.
I have to say, based on the number of three wheelers I see there may be an aging in the demographic
!
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Something I have always been curious about re the increasing average age of MClists. How much of that is due to young folks not entering the sport , or more to do with the fact that we live longer now , and more of us are riding well into our golden years ?
I figured it was because it's not politically correct to ride a motorcycle now, largely due to young riders buying race bikes that pass as street bikes and getting hurt or killed. Us older guys got into riding when it was still accepted by society. Maybe the new trend toward smaller, lower powered motorcycles (Ninja 250 and 300, KTM 390, small block Guzzis, Ducati Scrambler, etc.) will help.
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Here at Lake Powell in AZ we see tremendous numbers of Harleys, all rentals by European riders out seeing the southwest and it's beauty. After they all go home it's the usual suspects here in town with Harleys,Hondas,Indians and a few European brands[Guzzi and Beemer, mine] and a couple of dual sports. We have a Honda dealership but like you say, mostly four wheelers and off road stuff. Knowing most of the regulars,I'd say the median age is 50ish. Don't see lots of young riders on street bikes but in all fairness we have a boatload of offroad areas to ride. My .02$
Paul B :boozing:
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I figured it was because it's not politically correct to ride a motorcycle now, largely due to young riders buying race bikes that pass as street bikes and getting hurt or killed. Us older guys got into riding when it was still accepted by society. Maybe the new trend toward smaller, lower powered motorcycles (Ninja 250 and 300, KTM 390, small block Guzzis, Ducati Scrambler, etc.) will help.
Jim , I believe motorbikes are more accepted today than in the 1960s when most of us started riding .
Dusty
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I think in this age of "Specialization of Everthing", I no longer see young kids outside playing together as when I was a youngster, especially in the suburbs. Instead they are "Left to their own devices" inside the house or are hauled off to an "organized" sport.
I think all of this has created a generation of young adults who do not 1.) Appreciate the out of doors, 2.) Are "Less Individualistic", 3.) Less likely to take chances with a perceived "High Risk" sport, of which none of there friends are participating!
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Jim , I believe motorbikes are more accepted today than in the 1960s when most of us started riding .
You're probably right, but it doesn't seem that way to me. The mention of riding a motorcycle today often brings up very negative reactions, and tales of death and injury. Maybe it happened when we were young, but we didn't pay attention to it. Of course it could also be because I didn't get into riding until 1978, and it was more accepted then than it was in the '60s.
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Interesting topic and responses.
Didn't motorcycling in the US peak (in numbers) not in the 70's but in the 90's or 00's? And it was population/generation driven.
As for acceptance today, I've observed (with friends) a general decrease in interest of cars and trucks and bikes among the younger generations. So far I've seen this in my own kids, in my friend's kids, and my younger wife's even younger siblings.
I know it's not universal, but there's a trend towards green, mass transit, bicycles, cars as a reluctant tool, not a toy.
I think smaller, cheaper, more efficient COULD be a trend that sets the tone for the industry. The exception being the old guard that doesn't give a F and wants bigger or faster cause economy and efficiency doesn't matter.
But that old guard makes up the lion's share of the market, so it's still anyone's game. But I'm hoping the trend reverses and the smaller, lighter, more efficient start to win out. Because the performance of the mid level stuff has beaten what was available decades ago and the top dog stuff is just ridiculous.
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You're probably right, but it doesn't seem that way to me. The mention of riding a motorcycle today often brings up very negative reactions, and tales of death and injury. Maybe it happened when we were young, but we didn't pay attention to it. Of course it could also be because I didn't get into riding until 1978, and it was more accepted then than it was in the '60s.
Yeah , Honda's "You meet the nicest people ..." campaign was beginning to affect even the non motorcycling public by then . Oddly enough , I rarely hear horror stories re motorcycling these days , but then Oklahoma seems to either be way behind or way ahead of the other states , sometimes hard to figure out which :laugh:
Dusty
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I saw the beloved Suzuki Burgman 650 scooter go from $6,300 in '03 to $11,000 in '15. They really know how to sticker shock.
Picked up my '15 V7 Stone as one of the last 5-speeds in existence (discounted & free first service) plus the two guys that run our Piaggio Group line store don't try to push like the corporate store that bought up all the dealerships.
Insurance is way high nowadays even for no accidents or tickets so do the MSF course for a 10% reduction in rates.
Camera intersections in Tucson keep me away from those neighborhoods - sneaky turn lane arrows and ripoff politics - I want out of this little town, for my own safety.
If a gun goes off the cops are there right away but the 130 decibel thumpers that wake me up 70 times a night - who cares. I got sick 'n tired of junk plastic Japanese bikes and junk Tucson streets and junk politicians so I bought the Guzzi just to thumb my nose at the same old ripoffs all over this little sht town.
It turns out I did good because the Guzzi has been turning heads all over.
My apartment contract is up in a few months and I'm going to point the Guzzi to the Entrance Ramp and try to forget that I lived here for so long.
Boy turning to the on ramp and taking off sounds so good!
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Interesting topic and responses.
Didn't motorcycling in the US peak (in numbers) not in the 70's but in the 90's or 00's? And it was population/generation driven.
As for acceptance today, I've observed (with friends) a general decrease in interest of cars and trucks and bikes among the younger generations. So far I've seen this in my own kids, in my friend's kids, and my younger wife's even younger siblings.
I know it's not universal, but there's a trend towards green, mass transit, bicycles, cars as a reluctant tool, not a toy.
I think smaller, cheaper, more efficient COULD be a trend that sets the tone for the industry. The exception being the old guard that doesn't give a F and wants bigger or faster cause economy and efficiency doesn't matter.
But that old guard makes up the lion's share of the market, so it's still anyone's game. But I'm hoping the trend reverses and the smaller, lighter, more efficient start to win out. Because the performance of the mid level stuff has beaten what was available decades ago and the top dog stuff is just ridiculous.
Well said Kev. I definitely see those trends in younger folks and would like to see more emphasis on smaller bikes. I think a lot could be done with 500 - 800 cc engine platforms if there was increased demand. But I still see a heavy leaning toward BIG HD cruisers as the mass market focus right now. But those are mostly 50+ aged riders. However, with cars, I see a trend toward 4 cyl. Engines, even in larger cars and SUVs, so maybe that trend will start to carry over to bikes.
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I got my Guzzi at 18 years young I am 26 now, I will never forget thinking how cheap the Full Coverage insurance was. I asked Mrs. Ruth why it was cheap to insure a bike, and I quote " Progressive does not expect me to live past 6 months.". I bought my bike myself, so I can imagine why bikes are so taboo they are so much more dangerous then a cage, so that is the safety factor. Bikes are cheaper means of transportation so Moose Knuckle thinks you are cheap.
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As for acceptance today, I've observed (with friends) a general decrease in interest of cars and trucks and bikes among the younger generations. So far I've seen this in my own kids, in my friend's kids, and my younger wife's even younger siblings.
I know it's not universal, but there's a trend towards green, mass transit, bicycles, cars as a reluctant tool, not a toy.
There's also a trend toward spending all your time thumb-typing instead of doing anything in the real world.
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Only three kinds of riders around here. Mid 50's on an Eldorado, Greasy and needs a bath on a HD, and young drug dealers on crotch rockets. I hate living in this part of the state.
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I've observed (with friends) a general decrease in interest of cars and trucks and bikes among the younger generations.
Kev M is dead on here. My daughter's friends are entirely uninterested in motor sports. They do like their adrenalin thrills but get them skiing, rock climbing, kayaking, mountain biking. Their at-home time is absorbed in music, video and social media rather than tinkering in the garage.
In our adolescence, competence with tools and mastery of horsepower were part of the passage to manhood. Maybe it's just my neck of the woods, but the culture seems to have outgrown that obsession. It may have something to do with the change in dating rituals. Kids travel and party in packs rather than doing the the pair-dating thing. They can hang out via handhelds instead of downtown. There may be more casual sex, earlier, because that seems to be part of the larger culture, but it's hard to prove and the impression may come from the openness about it. I think that if I'd been getting laid regularly at 17 I might not have felt quite so compelled to find my thrills on motorbikes.
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Depends on where you are and when you look. Many younger people are still getting and riding motorcycles but use them differently; they are a choice for commuters. These commuter riders are a Mon-Fri crowd hitting the streetsnin the mornings and then again in the afternoon to go home where the bike gets parked.
Many of these young riders aren't the weekend rider types, they have other interests.
I've stopped riding on most weekends because I prefer the weekdays when the traffic is less. I've noticed quite a few riders of mature age riding then too. The cafes aren't crowded, there are far fewer sleds on the road and the riding time much more enjoyable.
It also depends on what you're looking for. There is a reason the HD dealerships are open 7 days a week and it isn't because there are fewer customers.
Just because you might not see a lot of motorcycles on the road doesn't mean they aren't there, they just aren't riding when you're riding.
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"In our adolescence, competence with tools and mastery of horsepower were part of the passage to manhood"
Good observation. Video game consoles and youtube provide education now. How bad is it? The local Honda dealer has the bikes in the back, ATV's and generators by the door. I do see a wider acceptance of motorcycles with the female student enrollments but even they just putt around like a flock of timid goslings waiting to be told what to do. Up to speed? As long as it stays in 2nd gear and low rpm. The males are getting to the same point, slowly. The average bike sees 4000 miles a year.
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It seems to me that I am seeing quite a few more young people on scooters than in the past. Also I worked with high school students until I retired last May and I am amazed how many put off obtaining a drivers license. I also think social media has made difference as kids don't need a car now to have out of ear shot of parents communications. The kids that are or aspire to be gear heads of some sort are now kind of look down upon by peers. The world is a changing as usual.
GliderJohn
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To be honest I really don't pay that much attention to what others are riding unless it's something old or unusual. But I can't fail to notice the majority of what I don't pay attention to are Harleys...
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Jim , I believe motorbikes are more accepted today than in the 1960s when most of us started riding .
Dusty
That is certainly how I see it.
Bob
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Lots of bikes everywhere. Lots of American style bikes, followed by adventure BMW types and Gold Wings.
In urban areas we have scooters and older Japanese bikes modded into cafe or street bikes, very nice.
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The "next generation" around here, those in the late 30s to early 40's, seem to like the resto and cafe looks. Lots of mid 70's Japanese bikes of small cc being used for bike nights, commutes, and day rides. They don't tend to ride far or do the camping thing. A lot of them often talk to me about the V7.
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In general, I don't see many "gearhead" kids like I used to. Manufacturers are having problems finding skilled tradesmen, mechanics, etc. These are the guys (and girls) that ride motorcycles. We are in the midst of a "computer revolution" every bit as big as the "mechanical revolution" of the last century. Most kids now grow up with a computer in their hand..
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In general, I don't see many "gearhead" kids like I used to. Manufacturers are having problems finding skilled tradesmen, mechanics, etc. These are the guys (and girls) that ride motorcycles. We are in the midst of a "computer revolution" every bit as big as the "mechanical revolution" of the last century. Most kids now grow up with a computer in their hand..
Chuck - that about sums it up. It is now more about what you know and can do with computers than cars, bikes, etc.....
Mark
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Marketing...Marketi ng.
What I see on the road, 85% HD and 10% clones, 5% Wings.
Rare sighting of any other brand.
Marketing.
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Whippersnappers don't have the ca$h it takes to buy a new bike today. Bikes are harder to workon and you need the diagnostic tools to service them proerly. And kids don't work on thing mechanical because they can't work on cars like we used to.
Yeah, they can chip their car's ECU but anything more it takes $. And the car must still pass emissions.
And motorcycling on the street is not a sport.
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In general, I don't see many "gearhead" kids like I used to. Manufacturers are having problems finding skilled tradesmen, mechanics, etc. These are the guys (and girls) that ride motorcycles. We are in the midst of a "computer revolution" every bit as big as the "mechanical revolution" of the last century. Most kids now grow up with a computer in their hand..
I noticed this growing up: those of us who had fathers that were "blue collar" and built things (as a profession and/or hobby) tended to be gear-heads and rode motorcycles. The guys in my class who had "white collar" fathers tended to be totally disinterested in cars or motorcycles (but oddly enough were given some of the best cars by their parents).
In general, with fewer parents working manufacturing jobs now, it's no surprise to me that there are fewer gear-head "kids".
Whippersnappers don't have the ca$h it takes to buy a new bike today. Bikes are harder to workon and you need the diagnostic tools to service them proerly. And kids don't work on thing mechanical because they can't work on cars like we used to.
Yeah, they can chip their car's ECU but anything more it takes $. And the car must still pass emissions.
And motorcycling on the street is not a sport.
Did any of us buy new motorcycles to start out? I sure as heck didn't - all of mine were built up from old junkers found in barns, sheds, etc. No reason why a kid today couldn't do the same, except that they don't want to.
"Motorcycling on the street is not a sport"? Huh? I guess it depends on how you do it... :wink:
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Like all of us, I've changed a lot since I started riding 45 years ago.
So any observations I may have about "what's happened to motorcycling" would NOT be the Lannis of 1970 comparing apples-to-apples with the Lannis of 2015 about motorcycling, but the Lannis of 2015 trying to look back to a world that he THINKS he remembers but is colored by 45 years of experience ....
I do know that when I was young, the occasional Harley Big Twin was a rare, exotic beast at $2,200 a pop. Us young guys ALL rode Yamaha twins, Honda CBs, and the rare Yamaha XS twins.
Today, the most common bike on the road is the big pack of identical Harley Big Twins at $17,000 + a pop, ridden by guys for which that represents 4 months wages ... something you NEVER saw back then.
And I never talked back then to anyone on a big Harley ... but it's different from the ones now.
Lannis
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And motorcycling on the street is not a sport.
Have to disagree with you there. To me, it's like hiking, or kayaking, or mountain climbing, or scuba diving.
You have special equipment to do it, it takes some amount of commitment and discomfort, and you have to work to be good at it.
The big ADVANTAGE is that you can combine your "sport" with things you have to do ANYway, like get from place to place. There isn't much opportunity for that when canoeing or scuba diving - it's 100% added extra expense, where the sport of motorcycling can substitute for the expense of a car going back and forth to work, say ....
Lannis
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And motorcycling on the street is not a sport
.
You haven't ever ridden with me :evil:
Dusty
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What seems to be the trend in motorcycling in your neck of the wood? Living in South Central Penna., I see a ton of Harleys everywhere I go and �Ricky Racers�. Also see some Gold Wings and a few Adventure bikes.
I�m into sport touring with my Guzzi 1200 Sport and BMW K75S but that seems to be dropping in popularity.
What do you see gaining or losing in popularity and what is the reasoning behind it? Is there anything cycle manufacturers can produce or do to bring back the masses like in the 1970�s? I believe the average age is going up with fewer young riders taking up the sport.
I drive past the local Honda dealer and they have rows of ATV�s lining their lot but hardly any motorcycles. What�s happening and why?
Seems like you have a good cross section of bike types and riders. As far as ATVs, you have to look at what's happened to dirt biking in general. Land closure primarily, cost second IMO. When I was in my teens in the '70s, anyone could afford a dual purpose bike and we all had Yammie DTs, Honda SLs, even Hodakas and they cost a couple of hundred bucks used. We ran the snot out of them in the open (now closed) desert in El Paso and the jungles of Panama. We moved a lot.
The older guys out of school and with jobs ran the CZs, Maicos, Rickmans, Bultacos and Montesas, but generally they weren't dual purpose, more MX or desert bikes.
The last real dirt bike I bought was a 1980 KDX250, brand new, out the door for $800. Look around today. $7,000 dirt bikes and no where to ride them without trucking way out to where you hope no one will notice you on their property?
As far as ATVs, plain and simple, they take less skill to operate than a two-wheeler and you can carry stuff for hunting, farming, or just an ice-chest full of beer when going mudding with your other two-wheel-averse buddies. Anyone can ride one so they're everywhere, and most times, everywhere they shouldn't be. I wonder how many are sold that end up just doing wheelies down the street.
In high school, again back in the '70s, most students who didn't ride the bus rode motorcycles. They out-numbered cars by a large margin. Except for the surfer dudes in their Toyota pickups or Datsun 510s with boards lashed on.
What's happened to motorcycling? It's evolving like we are. In my 20's and 30's I rode absolutely everywhere I went. Then came family. Today I drop my kids off and pick them up at school. Every time I go somewhere I have at least one or two people with me. Motorcycling has become an occasional passion where it once was part of my identity.
YMMV, mine sure does!
Tobit
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If motorcycling on the street is a sport then so is driving a bus. And if you feel it's a sport then you have the wrong attitude towards it. Offroad, I agree, but not on the street.
When we started riding $500 bought a lot of bike. $500 will buy you a non running no title pile of rust today.
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Interesting question - I have to say I have never worried about who is buying what and why, so I ride Guzzi, not the bigger brands. To each their own.
I have to say, based on the number of three wheelers I see there may be an aging in the demographic
!
:1:
The local Harley dealer is now selling 4 wheel hunting buggies along with bikes.
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If motorcycling on the street is a sport then so is driving a bus. And if you feel it's a sport then you have the wrong attitude towards it. Offroad, I agree, but not on the street.
When we started riding $500 bought a lot of bike. $500 will buy you a non running no title pile of rust today.
sport
sp�rt
noun
1.
an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.
Okay, so I'm not competing against anyone, but the first part is certainly true. Do you always compete against someone when riding offroad? I doubt it. So, then offroad riding is often not a sport as well. "Wrong attitude towards it"? One of has it (and it ain't me). So, street riding is just transportation is what you're saying? Not for me.
$500 will buy a non-rusted Ducati Paso with title (been there, done that). Still lots of cheaper, small Japanese bikes available.
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If motorcycling on the street is a sport then so is driving a bus. And if you feel it's a sport then you have the wrong attitude towards it. Offroad, I agree, but not on the street.
Why would you compare it to driving a bus rather than flying a small airplane, for example, or fishing in the Gulf Stream, or kayaking down a creek? Still rules to be followed, still other people to watch out for, but it's FUN and way different than just driving a bus .... ?
You don't have to act like the arsewipe that you often see on a "sport" bike to be engaging in a "sport" ... ?
Lannis
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Whippersnappers don't have the ca$h it takes to buy a new bike today. Bikes are harder to workon and you need the diagnostic tools to service them proerly. And kids don't work on thing mechanical because they can't work on cars like we used to.
Yeah, they can chip their car's ECU but anything more it takes $. And the car must still pass emissions.
And motorcycling on the street is not a sport.
I dunno.
There's a still a huge car culture and you certainly CAN tune whatever you want. I see people taking Nissan Jukes and going from 188 crank hp to 250 wheel hp. Yeah, that takes money, but once kids are done with school and working, some of them have it and spend it on their cars.
I remember my SIL telling me about Camp LeJune and all the young marines running around blowing their entire pay on their rides.
I'm sure there are still some HS kids taking shop and scraping pennies together to tune their cars (or buy really expensive stereos and rims).
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In high school, again back in the '70s, most students who didn't ride the bus rode motorcycles. They out-numbered cars by a large margin. Except for the surfer dudes in their Toyota pickups or Datsun 510s with boards lashed on.
Maybe it was Long Island, or maybe it was just that by the 80's that didn't happen. I don't recall seeing a single motorcycle in the parking lot of my high school. Plenty of cars, but no bikes.
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Geeze, some of you guys can turn anything into an argument!
Now, back to the subject, It's not "cool" to be a gearhead anymore, look around, kids would rather keep their face stuck in a cell phone or some other e-lectronic gadget.
Staying locked up in your parents home playing video games with some little zit faced peckerhead on the other side of the country is more comfortable and entertaining. Besides, it's not easy throwing a leg over a motorbike with your pants sagging down past your butt cheeks!
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Motorcycles, like electric guitars, are now toys only for old people. I was at a recent charity ride, 300 or so bikes, 95% Harleys, everyone over 45.
Even a comical tricked-out electric blue Hayabusa squidsicle, with chrome and extended swingarm, was ridden by some 50 something Polish dude.
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Times change, things that were cool aren't any more. Things we that weren't even invented when we were younger are the cool thing now. So, I guess I don't see the big deal.
If we die and motorcycles go away it won't matter. We're dead. :tongue:
But we're around now, enjoying (or looking to find that ride we want to enjoy) our bike(s). If the kids have something else in mind who are we to tell them different? As long as we have choices (in our rides, and if we want to or not) we're good. So I just don't see a problem.
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Some younger riders here (upstate NY) are also making cafe racers out of bikes like old Honda's. Guess it reflects that they are budget conscious (and maybe can't get a loan for a new bike), but at least the ones that are doing this must be mechanically inclined and not video game zombies !
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If we die and motorcycles go away it won't matter. We're dead.
I like this. It puts things in perspective (mortality usually does). Motorcycling is fun, it keeps me feeling vital and young, but at the same time I feel no need for more horsepower than I can have with any 70's era bike -- that is, enough to kill me or get me arrested. I no longer race but I do like a brisk ride at reasonable angles.
My interest in seeing a healthy motorcycle industry is in seeing tires and parts available easily and at reasonable cost. If that means the industry needs to build newer, faster bikes with interesting technology, great. Adrenaline junkies will always want that stuff, and my modest needs can draft behind that market.
Kudos to Harley, a company that learned to build a whole culture around its products. It's not my culture, but it's a brilliant phenomenon.
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Motorcycling not a sport? Lemme show you some canyon/mountain roads in California.
True, it's not a sport if all you do is drone down the interstate. :weiner:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/P1050756_zpse863985a.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/P1050756_zpse863985a.jpg.html)
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If the kids have something else in mind who are we to tell them different? As long as we have choices (in our rides, and if we want to or not) we're good. So I just don't see a problem.
We're NOT "telling them different". They can all do what they want to do. No laws are being passed here, not even any sticks being shaken at the kids and squids where they can see them.
And there ISN'T a problem. Did someone indicate there's a "problem"?
We're just "DISCUSSING" it. It's why we're all here.
Lannis
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Jim , I believe motorbikes are more accepted today than in the 1960s when most of us started riding .
Dusty
Man, I wasn't even born in the 60's.
Dave
Galveston
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Man, I wasn't even born in the 60's.
Dave
Galveston
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Keep right on telling your self that Dave :grin:
Dusty
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Motorcycles, like electric guitars, are now toys only for old people.
I go back and forth between passions. The LeMans and riding, then these. 57 years young and still rockin'.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/eroman/0617150523-00.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/eroman/DSCF1514_1.jpg)
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Bike sales peaked here a couple years ago as the oil boom reached its limit, since then sales are reportedly way down, as much as 40%. All the kids in the oil patch seem to want a Harley or they go for the big side by side 4X4 or quad with a healthy contingent of motocross sales as well. The local Guzzi dealership seems to be doing quite well and has a large stock (for here) of bikes. Cruisers seem to outnumber sport bikes by a wide margin but most are ridden by the +40 group.
I attended this years Distinguished Gentleman's Ride and of the 50 riders at least 2/3 were 30 something or younger. The rat bike, café racer was well represented and some of the builds were pretty darn good. I think there remains an interest to 'build' something, ride it and show it off. I think getting young(er) folks interested in bikes and wrenching is great, no matter what the particular make or style of bike.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/CRASH/PB200300_zpsi5oqjrub.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/CRASH/PB200300_zpsi5oqjrub.jpg.html)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/CRASH/PB200298_zpszffvrnlj.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/CRASH/PB200298_zpszffvrnlj.jpg.html)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/CRASH/PB200301_zpsok91lpbk.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/CRASH/PB200301_zpsok91lpbk.jpg.html)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/CRASH/PB200303_zpsamogqhrj.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/CRASH/PB200303_zpsamogqhrj.jpg.html)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/CRASH/PB200315_zpsusupdkwv.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/CRASH/PB200315_zpsusupdkwv.jpg.html)
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... I think there remains an interest to 'build' something, ride it and show it off. I think getting young(er) folks interested in bikes and wrenching is great, no matter what the particular make or style of bike.
I think that's consistent with any of us who've lent an electronic device to a Yute--and then had to take three days to undo all the personalization changes they made to your phone/tablet/computer.
Same issue is affecting the private aircraft industry. The pilot population is graying. How do you engage younger folks to jump through the hoops to get a proper license? Problem is, airports used to be open. Kids could wash planes in exchange for rides/lessons. It was a community and lots of airplanes were relatively cheap. Now more regulated, expensive and hidden behind razor wire. Not so good.
My son is a musician in his early 30's and gets on an occasional rant about the "Karate Kid" effect. Where a kid with minimal training, no competitive experience (in effect, without earning something or "paying dues") can waltz in and beat a more seasoned champion. He felt it set the stage for a lot of kids who would quit if they couldn't instantly be successful at something.
That said, I think it's harder for kids to find mentors these days.
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I'd wager many of us suburban types started riding minibikes and dirt bikes as kids on abandoned lots and nearby trails. In many areas, those places have been paved over and are no longer available.
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Why did I pick a bus? Because I didn't pick a truck.
A bus and a m/c are motor vehicles. Bothe driven on the street. If you think driving a m/c is a sport you are driving at the wrong venue. Driving a m/c on the street carries with it certain responsibilities. Just like that bus. If driving is agame to you take it off the street before you kill yourself or someone else.
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I have to disagree with the observations of the past. Maybe in rural communities youngsters were more 'into' cars, but, not in the city I was in.
Yep, I was a gear head, and there were a bunch others. But that meant about 100 in a HS of over 4000 students. Most could not care less what kind of car they had as long as it got them from a to b. That was late 60's. Even when in college the great majority just wanted transportion. Type didn't matter as long as it ran. Vans were popular for a number of reasons, but, condition was anything but great.
Move forward to today. There is still just a small percentage of 'gear heads'. Maybe a little less, but, they are still out there. And the young ones I have met started their interest in mechanical stuff from video games. They wanted to move from the fantasy world to the real world.
Motorcycles? I hear just as many 'crash' stories now as I did as a kid. Three of my friends won't ride anymore cause they were in serious accidents less than 10 years ago.
Job categories? Computers? YES! Look at what you need to do to service a modern car or bike. And, yes, there are fewer old style mecahnics out there because there are fewer cars/motorcycles that they can work on. Mechanical reliability is higher, fewer periodic service items (except for valve adjustments on a bunch of motorcycles). It makes sense that kids want to work with computers.
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Why did I pick a bus? Because I didn't pick a truck.
A bus and a m/c are motor vehicles. Bothe driven on the street. If you think driving a m/c is a sport you are driving at the wrong venue. Driving a m/c on the street carries with it certain responsibilities. Just like that bus. If driving is agame to you take it off the street before you kill yourself or someone else.
Man I dunno , have been treating motorcycling as a sport for 47 years now and haven't caused any living creature direct harm , well except for some bugs :grin: Seriously , if you believe cars and motorcycles to be the same you are missing out on the point of riding motorcycles . One drives a car , one "rides" a motorcycle .
Plato said the purpose of life is not to speed it up
Plato never owned a vehicle that would lean
Dusty
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Whippersnappers don't have the ca$h it takes to buy a new bike today. Bikes are harder to workon and you need the diagnostic tools to service ....
And motorcycling on the street is not a sport.
Seems that whippersnappers buy $200 mini motos the days (and yes that the new price) ride them on the roads and over parkland, no helmet just ISIS style head scarf. The sport begins when someone calls the cops. Sooner or later the bikes get confiscated and it's all quite till the end of the month when they buy another mini Moto. It does seem to be a sport and the kids don't get too upset getting their bikes crushed - these crappy little things seem to wear out engines in the couple of hundred miles and new bikes are more readily available than parts.....
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I'd wager many of us suburban types started riding minibikes and dirt bikes as kids on abandoned lots and nearby trails. In many areas, those places have been paved over and are no longer available.
I grew up in a city and as I mentioned before have never ridden a mini bike or off road bike other than maybe 15 minutes total time to this day.
Bikes were fast flashy and loud... Young men like fast flashy and loud. And the girls were attracted to leather wearing hoodlums.. it was that simple. When the Honda 750 came out many riders couldn't get one fast enough... Me ,like some others. though this is the end, self starting machines needing little maintenance... so anyone can ride a bike... :wink:
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Motorcycles are not novel anymore. Its more of a social accessory now.
The Segway was supposed to the next big thing to change personal transportation.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/segway-jousting_zpsghdjgrzs.jpg)
It was novel and a bit dangerous.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/farm%20segway_zpsdrhcncad.jpg)
And a bit limited in other markets.
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If you aren't driving a m/c you are only along for the ride. You aren't in control.
Gee, whooda thunk participating in a sport required license and insurance?
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Younger riders where I am at are into older hipster rides (honda, yamaha, suzuki) that are cheap, lots of modern sport bikes, and small displacement. Scooters seem to have taken a large chunk of riders looking for cheap transpo. Touring seems to have dropped in that segment for a lot of the rides they buy. Touring doesn't seem to be as popular with anyone under 30 as it was when I was that age.
ADV bikes replaced sport touring for me. I am seeing a lot of that in the middle age range of riders. Bikes that are more utilitarian and cross over a wider range of use.
Older riders seem to gravitate to touring rigs...wings, BMW LT, Electras... Not always the case, but the spread of people around here seem to lean that way.
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Why did I pick a bus? Because I didn't pick a truck.
A bus and a m/c are motor vehicles. Bothe driven on the street. If you think driving a m/c is a sport you are driving at the wrong venue. Driving a m/c on the street carries with it certain responsibilities. Just like that bus. If driving is agame to you take it off the street before you kill yourself or someone else.
So you're saying that riding (I've never driven a motorcycle yet) on the street isn't a sport unless the rider is breaking the speed limit, other traffic laws or otherwise putting his life and that of others in peril? :huh: You can ride sportingly without even breaking the speed limit. Maybe not on large displacement bikes, but on small ones it's entirely possible especially if they're vintage. The old "slow" bike "fast" vs. "fast" bike "slow".
Do you ever talk on a mobile phone (even hands free), talk to a passenger, eat or drink while driving your car? If so, then you're more of a danger to others than me riding "sportingly".
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Gee, whooda thunk participating in a sport required license and insurance?
Most racing organizations (car and motorcycle) require both!
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If you aren't driving a m/c you are only along for the ride. You aren't in control.
Gee, whooda thunk participating in a sport required license and insurance?
One drives a car and a golf ball , one rides a horse and a motorcycle .
Oh , and racing horses , surely a sport , requires a license and insurance .
Dusty
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But driving sportingly does not make it a sport. You can drive a bus "sportingly".
Where did te term, "driving" come from? As in driving horses.
See, gummint got involved and to race ya gotta have a license and shawrance.
Operating a m/c on the street isn't a game. Is driving a car a sport?
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But driving sportingly does not make it a sport. You can drive a bus "sportingly".
Where did te term, "driving" come from? As in driving horses.
See, gummint got involved and to race ya gotta have a license and shawrance.
Operating a m/c on the street isn't a game. Is driving a car a sport?
" Driving horses " has nothing to do with riding them , but refers to moving them , as in "we gotta drive those horses to Kansas" .
The fact that motorcycling involves challenges and discomforts qualifies it as a sport .
Dusty
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Why did I pick a bus? Because I didn't pick a truck.
A bus and a m/c are motor vehicles. Bothe driven on the street. If you think driving a m/c is a sport you are driving at the wrong venue. Driving a m/c on the street carries with it certain responsibilities. Just like that bus. If driving is agame to you take it off the street before you kill yourself or someone else.
You may be confusing racing on the street with simply enjoying the more nimble attribute of a motorcycle when contrasted with a four wheeled vehicle. I don't think anyone here advocates racing on the street but one can experience the sporting side of motorcycling by simply riding briskly and responsibly when the time, traffic and conditions permit.
You're no doubt aware that motorcycling has evolved from utilitarian post-WWII transportation through a personal choice of transportation through today where I see it as more diversion than necessity. A large part of the "Sport" of motorcycling for me is holding my intended line through a curve, hitting my braking points, keeping escape routes planned and staying alive. All of which can be thrilling pursued at or below the speed limit.
If to be Sport, goals have to be achieved and measured, I do it each time I ride. Did I operate more smoothly today? Was I a better motorcyclist? Do I need to practice a particular maneuver? Could I have merged more safely? Where am I deficient?
Or I can pursue sport as most car drivers do. How many lanes can I change at once without signalling? Can I get closer to the car in front of me? How many texts can I send before my off-ramp? How many drivers can I prevent from merging into my lane? If I have more and brighter LEDs on the front of my car / truck I can look cool and do whatever I want.
YMMV, Mine does.
Tobit.
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I have to disagree with the observations of the past. Maybe in rural communities youngsters were more 'into' cars, but, not in the city I was in.
Yep, I was a gear head, and there were a bunch others. But that meant about 100 in a HS of over 4000 students. Most could not care less what kind of car they had as long as it got them from a to b. That was late 60's. Even when in college the great majority just wanted transportion. Type didn't matter as long as it ran. Vans were popular for a number of reasons, but, condition was anything but great.
Move forward to today. There is still just a small percentage of 'gear heads'. Maybe a little less, but, they are still out there. And the young ones I have met started their interest in mechanical stuff from video games. They wanted to move from the fantasy world to the real world.
Motorcycles? I hear just as many 'crash' stories now as I did as a kid. Three of my friends won't ride anymore cause they were in serious accidents less than 10 years ago.
Job categories? Computers? YES! Look at what you need to do to service a modern car or bike. And, yes, there are fewer old style mecahnics out there because there are fewer cars/motorcycles that they can work on. Mechanical reliability is higher, fewer periodic service items (except for valve adjustments on a bunch of motorcycles). It makes sense that kids want to work with computers.
Good observations!
They all make sense to me.
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Driving a bus doesn't have challenges and discomfort?
And when hitched to a wagon you were driving horses. Where did the term, "pull in" come from?
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Driving a bus doesn't have challenges and discomfort?
And when hitched to a wagon you were driving horses. Where did the term, "pull in" come from?
Nope , you are driving the wagon , not the horses . Never heard the term "pull in" , so no idea . Enlighten us .
Dusty
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You may be confusing racing on the street with simply enjoying the more nimble attribute of a motorcycle when contrasted with a four wheeled vehicle. I don't think anyone here advocates racing on the street but one can experience the sporting side of motorcycling by simply riding briskly and responsibly when the time, traffic and conditions permit.
You're no doubt aware that motorcycling has evolved from utilitarian post-WWII transportation through a personal choice of transportation through today where I see it as more diversion than necessity. A large part of the "Sport" of motorcycling for me is holding my intended line through a curve, hitting my braking points, keeping escape routes planned and staying alive. All of which can be thrilling pursued at or below the speed limit.
If to be Sport, goals have to be achieved and measured, I do it each time I ride. Did I operate more smoothly today? Was I a better motorcyclist? Do I need to practice a particular maneuver? Could I have merged more safely? Where am I deficient?
:thumb:
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As far as younger riders.. here's Kevin. Hopefully, I've been a good influence on him. :smiley: He just finished up his commercial pilot's license and is working on his instrument ticket.
He's been a gear head from the first time I met him.. around 6 years old at OshKosh. He asked questions that kids don't ask about the airplanes. Always had had some engine he was fooling with, and hung out at the airport with his dad.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/1029_zpsr3emdkai.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/1029_zpsr3emdkai.jpg.html)
One of our mutual friends had an old Honda and sold it to him for $300. :smiley:
This is what he built.. very nice. He has a good eye.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/1026_zpsgdu3bcbp.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/1026_zpsgdu3bcbp.jpg.html)
He did it all, including paint and body work.
:thumb:
That said, he's the only serious gearhead kid that I've known over the last 15 or so years.
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Have to disagree with you there. To me, it's like hiking, or kayaking, or mountain climbing, or scuba diving. You have special equipment to do it, it takes some amount of commitment and discomfort, and you have to work to be good at it.
The big ADVANTAGE is that you can combine your "sport" with things you have to do ANYway, like get from place to place. There isn't much opportunity for that when canoeing or scuba diving - it's 100% added extra expense, where the sport of motorcycling can substitute for the expense of a car going back and forth to work, say ....
Lannis
And if you're riding a little bit or more on edge, your heart rate does get moving above triple digits, so it's actually good cardiovascular exercise as well! :)
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(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/1029_zpsr3emdkai.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/1029_zpsr3emdkai.jpg.html)
He did it all, including paint and body work.
:thumb:
That said, he's the only serious gearhead kid that I've known over the last 15 or so years.
There is hope after all...Great to read about youth like him. He resembles my nephew in Indy .....but he's barely able to raise the hood to add oil when the dash light goes on!
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Some think golf is a sport..........And hunting is a sport? it might only be if the odds were a bit more equal... :laugh: And sport fishing? I think a driver rowing the duplex gear box of an old under powered truck through the mountains is more sporting...
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Just some musings but I think it starts with the children and I don't see many that are attracted to motos these days. I'm sure there are varied reasons but here are some of my thoughts:
Who even rides bicycles anymore? When I was a kid we rode bikes everywhere. downtown, to the public pool, to the park, or just to ride. At age 10 we would ride to the neighboring towns just to see what was there. We'd leave in the morning and not come home till dinner. Now I see lots of kids skateboarding at the skate park and using the trick scooters but very few bicycles. parents won't let kids go very far so what use is a bicycle? As a kid, riding a bike prepares you for motos. You develop basic riding skills and confidence, you go to construction sites and climb hills of dirt, you learn how to work on your bike, you have adventures. It's just natural for any kid who has spent a lot of time on bicycles to want one with a motor. Conversely, if you haven't had fun on a bicycle, you're less likely to understand the appeal of a motorcycle later on.
I figure cost is a major issue. Motorcycling is not inexpensive. You need to want it pretty bad to put together money to buy a bike, riding gear, insurance, and pay for all the tires, oil, etc. Don't see many bikes that a kid with a paper route could afford and I don't expect there are many paper route jobs anymore besides. Average incomes are falling/costs are rising meaning fewer parents can afford to buy something for their kids.
Fewer places for kids to ride. Growing up in the northwest suburbs of Chicago, there were plenty of large chunks of undeveloped land where you could take a mini bike or small dirt bike and ride without being hassled. Even if you didn't have one, kids would hang out there and think about how cool it would be to have one. Now I live in an area more known for agriculture but I don't know many places a kid could ride where he didn't need a parent to take him there. If you do find an empty lot, you're probably trespassing or breaking some kind of ordinance and the cops are going to harass you.
Parents are more risk averse. In an age where you don't let a kid walk a half a block to school and playground equipment is all removed so kids don't get hurt, folks are less likely to even let a kid ride on the back of a motorcycle let alone encourage them to ride. Kids who have been sheltered are more likely to be afraid of a motorcycle when they get older.
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There is hope after all...Great to read about youth like him. He resembles my nephew in Indy .....but he's barely able to raise the hood to add oil when the dash light goes on!
Kevin could..uh.. *fix* whatever's going on with your nephew's vehicle.
and wonder why just anyone couldn't do that..:wink:
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Mark, what you describe is true in a lot of places.
But I'm happy to say it's not universal.
One of the reasons we chose this area was the prevalence of outdoor living. We're surrounded by a maze of lakes and small wooded streets that promote bicycling and canoeing and kayaking and paddle boarding...
We're a couple of hundred yards from a grade school whose bicycle racks fill up every weekday morning with dozens and dozens of bikes. This even holds true in the summer as they base a kids camp there as well.
There are restaurants and small shops (like the Sand Stand an ice cream shop) not a mile away just across from the small memorial park and the local police station.
And we're not more than 5-10 miles from state and federal forests with hundreds of miles of trails and roads all with bicycle lanes.
My kids already love their bicycles and are showing early interest not only in the motorcycles but everything that goes on in the garage.
I kinda wonder though if all this was already in the minority even when I was a kid.
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Parents are more risk averse. In an age where you don't let a kid walk a half a block to school and playground equipment is all removed so kids don't get hurt, folks are less likely to even let a kid ride on the back of a motorcycle let alone encourage them to ride. Kids who have been sheltered are more likely to be afraid of a motorcycle when they get older.
<sigh> there is that. <snapping suspenders> When I was a kid, I was breaking horses (seriously) to ride.. well, Shetland ponies at any rate.. when I was 5. (!) Pretty much had the run of the countryside on the back of my horse. I could literally be miles away from home. No....big....deal.
A couple of years ago, the twin grand kids came here from California for a while. They were 11 at the time. I arranged to get a 4 wheeler, told them to get lost on it on our 120 acres. They were afraid to get out of sight of us. It had *never* happened in their lives.
I realize that times are different, but still...
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Kev m my old buddy , you REALLY need to invest in a new auto correct . LOL
Dusty
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Kev m my old buddy , you REALLY need to invest in a new auto correct . LOL
Dusty
Maybe it's not the kind of shop you think it is ... !?!?
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Maybe it's not the kind of shop you think it is ... !?!?
OH MY !
Dusty
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OH MY !
Dusty
It's New Jersey after all. You hear rumors ....
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...
I've stopped riding on most weekends because I prefer the weekdays when the traffic is less. I've noticed quite a few riders of mature age riding then too. The cafes aren't crowded, there are far fewer sleds on the road and the riding time much more enjoyable.
...
I very much enjoy taking the occasional mid-week day off work to ride for this very reason, FAR less traffic mid-day during the week than on the weekend, at least on the roads I typically ride.
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I very much enjoy taking the occasional mid-week day off work to ride for this very reason, FAR less traffic mid-day during the week than on the weekend, at least on the roads I typically ride.
YES! One of the benefits of retirement.
I was out cutting grass today, and a riding buddy stopped by on his FZ-9 Yamaha and said "Let's go riding ... somewhere".
He needed to make a trip to the bike shop - he's trying to sell or trade his FZ and his Kaw Concours and get the Yamaha FX-09 or whatever the adv-bike version is.
So I handed the mower over to Fay, geared up, aired up, gassed up and off we went, following something in his GPS.
BEAUTIFUL fall day! We rode along the crooked roads that follow the south side of the James River in Virginia (going east) until we got to a bridge. Then we crossed and followed the crooked roads that follow the NORTH side of the river going west.
The first 25 miles, we didn't see a single vehicle in either direction. As we approached Lynchburg from the east, we FINALLY saw two cars but that was ALL until we turned onto US29 south.
Two cars in 50 miles. Ah LAHV zees country!
Lannis
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Just some musings but I think it starts with the children and I don't see many that are attracted to motos these days. I'm sure there are varied reasons but here are some of my thoughts:
Who even rides bicycles anymore? When I was a kid we rode bikes everywhere. downtown, to the public pool, to the park, or just to ride. At age 10 we would ride to the neighboring towns just to see what was there. We'd leave in the morning and not come home till dinner. Now I see lots of kids skateboarding at the skate park and using the trick scooters but very few bicycles. parents won't let kids go very far so what use is a bicycle?
Around here, bicycles are everywhere, literally. Bike lanes everywhere, new laws to make sure you don't crowd them. In some places, more bikes than people walking or cars being driven.
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<sigh> there is that. <snapping suspenders> When I was a kid, I was breaking horses (seriously) to ride.. well, Shetland ponies at any rate.. when I was 5. (!) Pretty much had the run of the countryside on the back of my horse. I could literally be miles away from home. No....big....deal.
A couple of years ago, the twin grand kids came here from California for a while. They were 11 at the time. I arranged to get a 4 wheeler, told them to get lost on it on our 120 acres. They were afraid to get out of sight of us. It had *never* happened in their lives.
I realize that times are different, but still...
When I was a kid, we'd get together, maybe two of us, and go look for quick sand down by the river (which was a mile or two away - depending on which curve you blundered into - no google maps back then). Quicksand was not a myth. I suspect the folks were looking for a do-over.
But this was a small small town, kids in other small towns seem to echo my childhood. Urban kids, not so much. Farm and ranch kids were driving tractors and trucks (my first tractor "driving" was at 8 years old or so. It was a while back. :) I don't think that part has changed much but have not lived in a small town for many years.
Back in Minnesota, many of us canoed and cross country skied but frankly, the winter active folks were a small percentage of the population with most folks dreaming of Arizona, summers, football and beer tasting. In no particular order.
As long as some of us are doing something we're good.
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3 pages and we've learned that Harleys are popular with old fats and some of kids like to build Japanese Brat bikes.
Who knew?
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It's New Jersey after all. You hear rumors ....
Ha ha..
Ice cream... Lol
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In general, with fewer parents working manufacturing jobs now, it's no surprise to me that there are fewer gear-head "kids".
Did any of us buy new motorcycles to start out? I sure as heck didn't - all of mine were built up from old junkers found in barns, sheds, etc. No reason why a kid today couldn't do the same, except that they don't want to.
This may have been said already.... I haven't read the entire thread yet.
40 years ago and prior cars didn't have all the electronic stuff they have now. I remember setting points, no EFI. Cars and bikes were simple to work on compared to todays vehicles. Oil now lasts 10,000 mile or more. Spark plugs go 100,000 miles. Over the years reliability of vehicles has increased and maintenance has decreased and with the complexity increasing not many people work on their vehicles. High School's are dropping their shop classes.. schools in the '70's that had very capable auto shop and metal shop no longer have those classes available. Kids just don't have routine easy access to auto shop classes today. Kids that became interested in wrenching because their friends were into it doesn't happen as easily as it did in the past.
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Kids just don't have routine easy access to auto shop classes today. Kids that became interested in wrenching because their friends were into it doesn't happen as easily as it did in the past.
True, but from what I've seen, kids are too busy thumb-typing to bother with shop class, even if it were available.
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It's hard to find places for kids to learn to ride these days. Unless you are lucky enough to have farmland in your family you either have to pay a lot of money to use a club or be old enough to get a licence. When I was a kid we had heaps of public spaces we could use.
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We have lots of shop classes, trade schools up here. The kids aren't riding because they are working, just like they did when I was a kid. Had a few working here Saturday.
Bikes have always been in the minority, that's why we think we are all individualists.
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This may have been said already.... I haven't read the entire thread yet.
40 years ago and prior cars didn't have all the electronic stuff they have now. I remember setting points, no EFI. Cars and bikes were simple to work on compared to todays vehicles. Oil now lasts 10,000 mile or more. Spark plugs go 100,000 miles. Over the years reliability of vehicles has increased and maintenance has decreased and with the complexity increasing not many people work on their vehicles. High School's are dropping their shop classes.. schools in the '70's that had very capable auto shop and metal shop no longer have those classes available. Kids just don't have routine easy access to auto shop classes today. Kids that became interested in wrenching because their friends were into it doesn't happen as easily as it did in the past.
I really don't accept this.
Now MAYBE less wrenching is getting DONE BECAUSE cars need it less. As you say the oil and spark plugs last longer, there's no timing or dwell to check/set, etc.
But I continue to reject the concept that you can't work on them, or they are harder to repair (it's just different in SOME cases, but not necessarily harder). More expensive sometimes, but that doesn't mean it's harder to turn the wrenches.
I really do wonder if we're not looking at this subject through highly tinted glasses.
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I really don't accept this.
Now MAYBE less wrenching is getting DONE BECAUSE cars need it less. As you say the oil and spark plugs last longer, there's no timing or dwell to check/set, etc.
But I continue to reject the concept that you can't work on them, or they are harder to repair (it's just different in SOME cases, but not necessarily harder). More expensive sometimes, but that doesn't mean it's harder to turn the wrenches.
I really do wonder if we're not looking at this subject through highly tinted glasses.
Kev, you're too young to remember Service stations. Cars needed Service about every 1000 miles. (!) Kids hung out there, got in the way, and sometimes helped. :smiley: Changing plugs? Piece of cake. Cars were designed to be maintained because they *had* to be maintained. You have to pull the engine on some cars now just to change the plugs.
At any rate, there was a constant stream of cars being serviced, kids hung out there, and some caught the bug to turn wrenches. Won't happen any more.
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Is motorcycling the new shuffleboard?
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Kev, you're too young to remember Service stations. Cars needed Service about every 1000 miles. (!) Kids hung out there, got in the way, and sometimes helped. :smiley: Changing plugs? Piece of cake. Cars were designed to be maintained because they *had* to be maintained. You have to pull the engine on some cars now just to change the plugs.
At any rate, there was a constant stream of cars being serviced, kids hung out there, and some caught the bug to turn wrenches. Won't happen any more.
No doubt it's different now.
But people do still catch the bug.
You see it on internet forums (for cars more than bikes, but that's just percentages talking there).
I've got a good buddy whose little brother (early 20s) is part of a truck club - these guys do serious modifications (not my taste, but serious). Sorta truck versions of the classic low riders. The club is pretty big and members attend car shows all up and down the east coast.
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Cars were designed to be maintained because they *had* to be maintained. You have to pull the engine on some cars now just to change the plugs.
I think you forgot some of the old issues. The Chevy 427 in many of their sedans. You had to remove the front wheels and inner fender parts to get to some of the spark plugs. There was one model that you did have to lift the engine to get to the plugs (don't remember now but it was a right PITA). There was one Chrysler model that they 'hid' the oil drain plug with a frame cross member so you had to lift the engine to drain the oil.
Those led to some 'rules' by the SAE to make cars serviceable. Those 'rules' are still in place, but, mfgs are making it so there is less maintenance.
Now days does it matter if you have to lift the engine to change the plugs? Heck, they go for 100k miles. Not the same as changing them every 10k miles.
I made a lot of extra money in HS doing tuneups on cars. Carb rebuilds, points, sometimes adjusting valves.
Oil change very 3k miles, points and plugs every 10k. Carb rebuild by 20k. Valve jobs between 50k and 75k. Engine overhauls at 100k (or so).
Now days I'd go broke. About the only services needed are changing oil and filters.
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I really don't accept this.
Now MAYBE less wrenching is getting DONE BECAUSE cars need it less. As you say the oil and spark plugs last longer, there's no timing or dwell to check/set, etc.
But I continue to reject the concept that you can't work on them, or they are harder to repair (it's just different in SOME cases, but not necessarily harder). More expensive sometimes, but that doesn't mean it's harder to turn the wrenches.
I really do wonder if we're not looking at this subject through highly tinted glasses.
I think you're correct. We here on WG just don't live in the "new" world of automobile hobby performance upgrades.
I'm on the Ford Festiva forums (since I have one), and it's amazing what the young guys do in the area of swapping fuel injector "rails" from a Mazda to a Festiva, swapping out camshafts, etc.
And on a whim, waiting in an airport, I picked up a modern "car performace" magazine of some kind. I was really surprised at the sort of modifications that people make to NEW Audis and BMWs, swapping engines and injector systems and cams and programs - it's just like someone swapping a 383 into a 340 'Cuda. There's more plastic and hoses and electronics to deal with, but the guys who are into it just deal with it, and you can get a step-by-step diagram that shows you what they did ...
It's not "shade-tree" stuff but it's apparently done all the time ...
Lannis
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I think you forgot some of the old issues. The Chevy 427 in many of their sedans. You had to remove the front wheels and inner fender parts to get to some of the spark plugs. There was one model that you did have to lift the engine to get to the plugs (don't remember now but it was a right PITA).
Which models? I don't recall having to do that, and I've been around a lot of big block Chevrolets.
Even changing plugs in some small block cars was difficult, but I don't remember the kind of disassembly you note.
It was the shock towers that got in the way on my '67 Chevy II. Real tight clearance there.
'69 Chevelle
(http://image.superchevy.com/f/9910186+w640+h640+q80+re0+cr1+st0/sucs_0732_01_z%2B1969_chevy_chevelle%2Bl72_427_engine.jpg)
'68 Impala
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQnmWMOLgsu_PcEtaWJzP8eeiLI7R_wrZOZylXqQ9mraA3fUTII3w)
'66 Impala
(http://cdn.barrett-jackson.com/staging/carlist/items/Fullsize/Cars/23948/23948_Engine_Web.jpg)
'67 Chevy II Nova
(http://www.barrett-jackson.com/staging/carlist/items/Fullsize/Cars/138272/138272_Engine_Web.jpg)
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We are in a real golden age for cars-when you can buy a 700+ hp car from a Chrysler/Dodge dealer, Mustangs have 500+ hp, Corvettes are world-class cars...
And all this complaining about Harley riders, from a forum populated by "buy American" enthusiasts (I am one..) .
This is what it looks like when an American company dominates the domestic motorcycle scene, and this is what American motorcyclists want. Our fringe attitude is really out of date-sometimes foreign isn't better, it's just..foreign.
Plenty of kids are into performance cars. Our age group calls them riceburners.
Chuck's friend? How many here would have called him a hipster if they saw him out of this context? I mean, he has an old Honda turned into a cafe racer, right?
Motorcycling is fine. We're just getting old and not taking it very well.
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Have you ever seen a stock WRX? I was day dreaming about buying one but try to find one that hasn't been modded. When I was a kid every one had a mini bike , my first motorized two wheel experience was on a mini bike riding around my friends yard in the suburbs.I guess that is where I got the two wheel bug. Now in the cites lots of young folks on cheap Chinese bikes riding illegally terrorizing neighborhoods but I don't think they will grow the sport. :copcar:
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Dusty, you've NEVER heard the term, "pull in"?
"Pull your car into the garage, we'll change the tires".
"Don't back it in, pull it in".
It came from Teamsters driving horses.
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Dusty, you've NEVER heard the term, "pull in"?
"Pull your car into the garage, we'll change the tires".
"Don't back it in, pull it in".
It came from Teamsters driving horses.
Ahh , interesting .
Dusty
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Which models? I don't recall having to do that, and I've been around a lot of big block Chevrolets.
The one I know of was not a BBC, it was the V8 Monza.
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The one I know of was not a BBC, it was the V8 Monza.
CB may have been thinking about some of the big block Pontiacs , which did in fact require removing a wheel and going through the fender well to get at a couple of spark plugs .
Dusty
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Meanwhile.......
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/median%20ages_zpsvoeh1tcf.jpg)
(cough, cough. :clock: cough!)
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If motorcycling on the street is a sport then so is driving a bus. And if you feel it's a sport then you have the wrong attitude towards it.
Well you might be right. Motorcycle riding in the SF bay area or LA is more like COMBAT! I do miss Vic Morrow
Then again it does have a lethal component of many sports. Like Eventing Horses, rock climbing in Yosemite or Sky-Diving with a Wing Suit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2&v=iMf1xC2NdHg
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Started riding a bicycle in 1962 at the age of 9 and haven't stopped. I rode wherever I wanted to go. after riding single speeds, I bought a 10 speed in 1973 and that took me on multi-week and multi-month adventure trips. So 2-wheel adventure/exploring/traveling (bicycles & motorcycles) is in my blood.
Back in 1971, I took up motorcycles on a Honda 65cc bike for $125. A few months later a Suzuki 125cc for $225 after selling the 125. In the summer of 1972, I bought a new Suzuki 380cc for $900 after selling the 125 for $350. And this was while going to art school and working part time at $2 per hr.
Back then, cycles seemed inexpensive and they were multi-functional not specialized as today. ...Even when making $2 per hr. I paid for a new cycle and schooling. Try that today working part time.
Through the 44 years, I've heard "Isn't that dangerous?" I've known several people who have given it up... "too dangerous" they say. I know people who won't venture off a designated bicycle rail trails for fear of getting hit by a car. And factor in the danger of all people driving while texting.
The other element I see are "Rice Rockets" tearing past on the highways and LOUD Harley pipes. Does these kind of examples make people want to take up the sport?!?
And around here I see riders putting signs in their yards that read "Watch out for motorcycles... they're everywhere" and I think (and I'm a rider) you will get respect from drivers WHEN YOU SHOW RESPECT FOR THEM!
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Through the 44 years, I've heard "Isn't that dangerous?" I've known several people who have given it up... "too dangerous" they say. I know people who won't venture off a designated bicycle rail trails for fear of getting hit by a car. And factor in the danger of all people driving while texting.
My BIL and SIL (she's the marine I've mentioned here before) live in Chester County PA (rolling hill country).
Both are avid bicyclists (he might be more of a bicycle nut, I think he had about a dozen a year or two ago between his street bikes and mountain bikes).
They also started riding motorcycles with Jenn and I.
He picked a Kawi Versys and she a NC700X maybe what half a decade ago (when did the NC700X come out?).
They rode those motorcycles and/or their street bikes weekly.
Then last year, out of no where, they sold everything but the mountain bikes.
The motorcycles and the street bikes were gone in a flash.
When I asked them about it they simply said they felt it had gotten too dangerous to ride on the street.
Now they mountain bike exclusively, which is sorta funny cause one of them goes over the bars like WEEKLY now. He had to have surgery for a separated shoulder just this past year.
<shrugs>
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Meanwhile.......
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/median%20ages_zpsvoeh1tcf.jpg)
(cough, cough. :clock: cough!)
Overlay life expectancy with median age and that would be the tell.
Some of those green countries with teen-aged median ages probably have life expectancies half of what they are in the 1st World.
Edit: Google is your friend. Not quite half, but significant.
Niger - 57.97
Uganda - 58.65
Mali - 54.60
Afghanistan - 60.51
Germany - 80.89
Japan - 83.10
Italy - 82.94
USA - 78.74
Canada - 81.24
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Mark, what you describe is true in a lot of places.
But I'm happy to say it's not universal.
One of the reasons we chose this area was the prevalence of outdoor living. We're surrounded by a maze of lakes and small wooded streets that promote bicycling and canoeing and kayaking and paddle boarding...
We're a couple of hundred yards from a grade school whose bicycle racks fill up every weekday morning with dozens and dozens of bikes. This even holds true in the summer as they base a kids camp there as well.
There are restaurants and small shops (like the Sand Stand an ice cream shop) not a mile away just across from the small memorial park and the local police station.
And we're not more than 5-10 miles from state and federal forests with hundreds of miles of trails and roads all with bicycle lanes.
My kids already love their bicycles and are showing early interest not only in the motorcycles but everything that goes on in the garage.
I kinda wonder though if all this was already in the minority even when I was a kid.
Keep them away from video games. My daughter used to like to ride her bicycle and ride on the back of my motorcycle. Now, all, all she wants to do is play video games or read Harry Potter.
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Now they mountain bike exclusively, which is sorta funny cause one of them goes over the bars like WEEKLY now. He had to have surgery for a separated shoulder just this past year.
<shrugs>
Yes, high-level mountain biking will beat you up to some extent. A riding buddy and I say that if we don't come home bloody, we didn't have a good time. But being in the woods on trails, without having to constantly deal with cars and drivers who either don't see you, or do see you and want to show you how irritated they are for being delayed five or ten seconds, can make the difference between enjoying a ride or putting up with it.
Bicycling on public roads has the danger elements of motorcycling, compounded by the difference in speed that makes you encounter several times the number of other vehicles, all wanting to pass immediately, even if it means on a blind curve or hilltop. I mostly quit road cycling for the last few years I lived in Bethesda, MD. Now I'm so far out in the country, during a one hour ride I typically encounter a dozen cars or fewer.
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Keep them away from video games. My daughter used to like to ride her bicycle and ride on the back of my motorcycle. Now, all, all she wants to do is play video games or read Harry Potter.
That's very simple.
There is a time limit on electronics.
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Bicycling on public roads has the danger elements of motorcycling, compounded by the difference in speed that makes you encounter several times the number of other vehicles, all wanting to pass immediately, even if it means on a blind curve or hilltop. I mostly quit road cycling for the last few years I lived in Bethesda, MD. Now I'm so far out in the country, during a one hour ride I typically encounter a dozen cars or fewer.
The constant rolling hills and curves where they live was motorcycling paradise, but it means constantly being in danger on a bicycle.
The flip side of that is where we live now there are hundreds of miles of relatively flat, straight roads with wide bicycle lanes. They'd probably do much better here.
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The flip side of that is where we live now there are hundreds of miles of relatively flat, straight roads with wide bicycle lanes. They'd probably do much better here.
If they didn't die from boredom, riding on flat, straight roads all the time. :grin:
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That's very simple.
There is a time limit on electronics.
We DO limit the time on the electronics. She spends the rest of the time either reading or bitching about how we are mean for limiting the electronics time.
In any case, don't let your kids get addicted to begin with. That is a lot easier at the age they're at now then the pre-teen years when they're MUCH more under the influence of other kids.
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Yes, high-level mountain biking will beat you up to some extent. A riding buddy and I say that if we don't come home bloody, we didn't have a good time. But being in the woods on trails, without having to constantly deal with cars and drivers who either don't see you, or do see you and want to show you how irritated they are for being delayed five or ten seconds, can make the difference between enjoying a ride or putting up with it.
Bicycling on public roads has the danger elements of motorcycling, compounded by the difference in speed that makes you encounter several times the number of other vehicles, all wanting to pass immediately, even if it means on a blind curve or hilltop. I mostly quit road cycling for the last few years I lived in Bethesda, MD. Now I'm so far out in the country, during a one hour ride I typically encounter a dozen cars or fewer.
I used to spend a fair amount of time mountain bike and road biking (bicycle). Yeah, the guys I rode with had the same, "if you're not crashing, your not trying" mentality with mountain biking. I think that I'm paying for that now. I pretty much have quite road bicycling for the same reasons as you, it is too dangerous. I feel WAY more vulnerable than on the motorcycle. Mountain biking for me these days is mostly limited to rail trail type riding. Which, aside from being much less convenient than just getting on the road bike and riding from the house, is more enjoyable due to not having to dodge traffic.
I enjoy riding my dual sport on unpaved roads for the same reasons -- virtually no traffic to deal with.
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We DO limit the time on the electronics. She spends the rest of the time either reading or bitching about how we are mean for limiting the electronics time.
Ha, that reminds me of one time I told the kids, probably ages around 3 and 5, it was time to go outside and play in our yard for a while. My daughter (5) moped around outside, doing nothing but waiting to be allowed back in, occasionally asking if it was time yet. Luckily she has since found a better appreciation for the outdoors.
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We DO limit the time on the electronics. She spends the rest of the time either reading or bitching about how we are mean for limiting the electronics time.
In any case, don't let your kids get addicted to begin with. That is a lot easier at the age they're at now then the pre-teen years when they're MUCH more under the influence of other kids.
That's the answer. We never bought any video games, electronics, phones, etc for our kids. We don't have the TV hooked up to any broadcast or cable - just DVDs of our choice.
Outdoor activities, hunting, fishing, bicycling, trail-biking .... no time for anything else. You wouldn't BELIEVE how many problems that eliminates compared to all the parents worrying about who they are "texting", what "sites" they are visiting, sitting in their room for hours with a joystick or thumbing buttons ... and the parents ENABLE all that, and PAY for all that, and then bitch and moan about how it's affecting their kids ....
You don't have to do it just because everyone else is doing it. Seems to be a hard lesson to learn though ....
Lannis
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....At any rate, there was a constant stream of cars being serviced, kids hung out there, and some caught the bug to turn wrenches. Won't happen any more.
Ah yes, I fondly remember the taste of mouth-siphoned leaded-gas and the smell of inhaled asbestos dust from brake drums.
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Our two sons, in their 30's, love their dirt bikes and trail ride at any opportunity. Colorado,, Utah (Moab) New Mexico and Texas. They are planning a Baja trip. If I had seriously ridden trails when I was that age maybe a street bike wouldnt have been a priority.
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If they didn't die from boredom, riding on flat, straight roads all the time. :grin:
True, but at least the forests are pretty.
We DO limit the time on the electronics. She spends the rest of the time either reading or bitching about how we are mean for limiting the electronics time.
In any case, don't let your kids get addicted to begin with. That is a lot easier at the age they're at now then the pre-teen years when they're MUCH more under the influence of other kids.
No one ever died from bitching, and there will always be outside influences, but if she's living under your roof, then it's your rules.
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We are in a real golden age for cars-when you can buy a 700+ hp car from a Chrysler/Dodge dealer, Mustangs have 500+ hp, Corvettes are world-class cars...
And all this complaining about Harley riders, from a forum populated by "buy American" enthusiasts (I am one..) .
This is what it looks like when an American company dominates the domestic motorcycle scene, and this is what American motorcyclists want. Our fringe attitude is really out of date-sometimes foreign isn't better, it's just..foreign.
Plenty of kids are into performance cars. Our age group calls them riceburners.
Chuck's friend? How many here would have called him a hipster if they saw him out of this context? I mean, he has an old Honda turned into a cafe racer, right?
Motorcycling is fine. We're just getting old and not taking it very well.
That is the way it is. Besides, riding and wrenching are too different things and you don't need to do the second to enjoy the first. The guy or gal that has ridden their bike all year and can just jump on and go because they still have 10k before a valve adjustment is riding.
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Well, I have to apologize for not having read this whole thread (I've been occupied), but I did do some keyword searching before posting...
I think what's happening is that the average intelligence of motorcyclists is declining through time.
I'll explain my theory, and then the evidence.
Theory: In the 60's when I started riding, not much was known about motorcycle safety. Honda's campaign claiming you meet the nicest people was enough to convince many reasonable people to ride. Smart people bought motorcycles to do useful things, so they had luggage racks, sensible riding positions, room to pack a girlfriend, and adaptability for other opportunities that might come up.
As time passed two things happened. First, more information about the relative danger of motorcycling versus car driving became available and was widely distributed. Smart people began to think twice about riding. Second, the conditions under which motorcycles operate became progressively worse, with more crowding and with increasingly armored, coddled, and electronics entranced drivers not giving a rat's posterior about us. Again, smart people began to think twice.
The result, in my theory, is a decline in the average intelligence of motorcycle riders. Smart people don't do it as much, making the non-smart a predominant and growing majority.
Evidence: The evidence is the motorcycles the remaining population choose. Instead of flexible, practical designs they pick road racers or Wild One sickles in huge proportions. The first are particularly stupid choices (and a main empirical buttress of my theory), but the second are also typically inferior as motorcycles to other designs, for any given task. By their choices ye shall know them. Stupid is as stupid does.
Not all motorcyclists are stupid. You and I, for example, are smart. But the others are getting stupider and more confounding to the rest of us, on average, as time goes on. This explains everything.
Moto
P.S. Smart people have now moved more to scooters. Ironically, they're no safer. In time this will be understood and smart people will abandon them too. Then the remaining scooter riders will gravitate to Ruckuses and away from the more practical designs that now predominate. (Good theories make testable predictions.)
M.
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Ruckuses? Rucki?
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CB may have been thinking about some of the big block Pontiacs , which did in fact require removing a wheel and going through the fender well to get at a couple of spark plugs .
Dusty
Actually with only a coupleexceptions all Pontiac engines were big blocks, regardless of displacement.
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My wife could teach you guys a few things about grass roots auto repair...
Rebuilding the engine in here 51 Willys 4x4 truck.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8053/8119678324_29c7412410_c.jpg)
A few weeks ago working on our 68 Chevy 4x4...
(http://i.imgur.com/gSwGFlUl.jpg)
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Wait until the self driving cars come out and they decide it is less dangerous to the occupant to run over a motorcycle than into a F150.
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Wait until the self driving cars come out and they decide it is less dangerous to the occupant to run over a motorcycle than into a F150.
They'll be right after the flying personal jet-packs. I read about it in a 1961 issue of Popular Science.
Lannis
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True, but at least the forests are pretty.
Yes, they sure are. I spent a lot of time in and around Ocean City as I was growing up. I still miss that area.
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Well, I have to apologize for not having read this whole thread (I've been occupied), but I did do some keyword searching before posting...
I think what's happening is that the average intelligence of motorcyclists is declining through time.
I'll explain my theory, and then the evidence.
Theory: In the 60's when I started riding, not much was known about motorcycle safety. Honda's campaign claiming you meet the nicest people was enough to convince many reasonable people to ride. Smart people bought motorcycles to do useful things, so they had luggage racks, sensible riding positions, room to pack a girlfriend, and adaptability for other opportunities that might come up.
As time passed two things happened. First, more information about the relative danger of motorcycling versus car driving became available and was widely distributed. Smart people began to think twice about riding. Second, the conditions under which motorcycles operate became progressively worse, with more crowding and with increasingly armored, coddled, and electronics entranced drivers not giving a rat's posterior about us. Again, smart people began to think twice.
The result, in my theory, is a decline in the average intelligence of motorcycle riders. Smart people don't do it as much, making the non-smart a predominant and growing majority.
Evidence: The evidence is the motorcycles the remaining population choose. Instead of flexible, practical designs they pick road racers or Wild One sickles in huge proportions. The first are particularly stupid choices (and a main empirical buttress of my theory), but the second are also typically inferior as motorcycles to other designs, for any given task. By their choices ye shall know them. Stupid is as stupid does.
Not all motorcyclists are stupid. You and I, for example, are smart. But the others are getting stupider and more confounding to the rest of us, on average, as time goes on. This explains everything.
Moto
P.S. Smart people have now moved more to scooters. Ironically, they're no safer. In time this will be understood and smart people will abandon them too. Then the remaining scooter riders will gravitate to Ruckuses and away from the more practical designs that now predominate. (Good theories make testable predictions.)
M.
Smart people avoiding danger-so that's why all the donut shops went out of business.
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Yep, if it wasn't for Mr. N..
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Yep, if it wasn't for Mr. N..
Who ever ... oh , never mind :rolleyes:
Dusty
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Smart people avoiding danger-so that's why all the donut shops went out of business.
No... --
The theory says the average intelligence of donut shop patrons goes down as the smart ones stop coming. This makes it easier for bottom-feeders like Dunkin Donuts to take market share from the good independent bakeries. This seems to have happened in my town. But the number of shops has also declined, at least here, as you suggest!
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I suspect all these differing anecdotal stories aren't really telling us much. In a nation of far over 300,000,000 the perspective of 20 guys who remember when you could still smoke on commercial airlines might not be particularly relevant?
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I suspect all these differing anecdotal stories aren't really telling us much. In a nation of far over 300,000,000 the perspective of 20 guys who remember when you could still smoke on commercial airlines might not be particularly relevant?
Or who CAN'T remember what happened yesterday :evil:
Dusty
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Openly smoking in public is a memory as well.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/cool%20monkey_zpst7pdf91r.jpg)
Not the same anymore.
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They'll be right after the flying personal jet-packs. I read about it in a 1961 issue of Popular Science.
Lannis
And the Dick Tracy watch huh?
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And the Dick Tracy watch huh?
I ALWAYS believed that the Dick Tracy radio-watch (and later, the TV watch) was going to happen. After all, it was Dick Tracy!
Lannis
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Well, we finally got the watch this year in the form of Apple Watch
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Well, we finally got the watch this year in the form of Apple Watch
Like most things Apple, the things were already there, polish and marketing layered by Apple tends to rewrite history. Apple watch is pretty much a flop if measured the Apple way. Its a decent start for them but the small garage and backroom designs are so much better.
Nevertheless, every kid can fly a drone, computers in your pocket, the self driving car will be here too. The groundwork to make them acceptable is going on. They'll be here soon enough.
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Nevertheless, every kid can fly a drone, computers in your pocket, the self driving car will be here too. The groundwork to make them acceptable is going on. They'll be here soon enough.
Maybe. But there is a WIDE gulf between controlling flow of electrons in a small pocket-sized computer, or controlling a drone ... and controlling a device with the kinetic energy of a car in the wild world of a highway with people everywhere.
But time will tell. I suspect it'll be LOTS of time and we'll be discussing it via our ear trumpets if at all ....
Lannis
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I really think the "self driving car" thing is a long way off. I know people are working on the idea, but I'm not sure why. Techies are just geeky like that, I guess. They have lots of variables to work out and program for, plus liability has to be worked out.
In the 1960s, Star Trek's "communicators" and "Tricorders" seemed like way-out devices. Having wireless access to phone networks and computer networks! Now, everyone has a "tricorder" on their hip, in the form of a smart phone.
I don't doubt that smart highways and self driving cars are part of the future. I just think it will be sometime after I've hung up my car keys for the last time.
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I really think the "self driving car" thing is a long way off. I know people are working on the idea, but I'm not sure why. Techies are just geeky like that, I guess. They have lots of variables to work out and program for, plus liability has to be worked out.
In the 1960s, Star Trek's "communicators" and "Tricorders" seemed like way-out devices. Having wireless access to phone networks and computer networks! Now, everyone has a "tricorder" on their hip, in the form of a smart phone.
I don't doubt that smart highways and self driving cars are part of the future. I just think it will be sometime after I've hung up my car keys for the last time.
The amazing advances in technology that actually happen are almost NEVER the ones that are predicted by people.
Tiny pocket-sized computers that have more power than a building-sized mainframe computer of the 60's, that can communicate with satellites, locate you precisely, steer a tractor across a field and make perfect rows, allow you to speak "Who's that cute Indian actress that was in Slumdog Millionaires?" and within 5 seconds display her picture and biography .... NONE of that was predicted by anyone until it happened.
Science fiction-writers of the 60s and 70s predicted a cash free world, where you just waved a credit chip at a terminal and all your stuff was paid for, but there were no specific targets set by the tech mags.
Nope, they were too busy predicting (by year 2000) backyard fusion generators, shuttle flights to the Mars colonies, personal helicopters and jet backpacks, self-driving cars and trucks, cars that turned into airplanes, long-range electric cars, manned exploration flights to Jupiter on near-light-speed ion reaction drives, huge undersea cities, direct supersonic tunnel subways from London to Tokyo.... I've got a pretty good sized collection of Popular Science, Scientific American, etc from those days, I know what people were discussing.
We should be able to learn something about what to predict in the future by looking back at our experience, but we tend not to do that ....
Lannis
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Kev M is dead on here. My daughter's friends are entirely uninterested in motor sports. They do like their adrenalin thrills but get them skiing, rock climbing, kayaking, mountain biking. Their at-home time is absorbed in music, video and social media rather than tinkering in the garage.
In our adolescence, competence with tools and mastery of horsepower were part of the passage to manhood. Maybe it's just my neck of the woods, but the culture seems to have outgrown that obsession. It may have something to do with the change in dating rituals. Kids travel and party in packs rather than doing the the pair-dating thing. They can hang out via handhelds instead of downtown. There may be more casual sex, earlier, because that seems to be part of the larger culture, but it's hard to prove and the impression may come from the openness about it. I think that if I'd been getting laid regularly at 17 I might not have felt quite so compelled to find my thrills on motorbikes.
that is exactly what I see in my adult children... all twenty somethings. Endless ambition of the 80s and 90s seems to have been replaced with a desire to just live their lives... rock climbing and other extreme sport, getting out with friends, social ntera tions online and in person. My girls are all college graduates but are totally uninterested n any sort of careerism. Yet they work hard, become archery coaches, yoga intructors beer brewers, dancers, oriental medicine practicioners, acupuncterists, urban planners, etc, etc.
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Tiny pocket-sized computers that have more power than a building-sized mainframe computer of the 60's, that can communicate with satellites, locate you precisely, steer a tractor across a field and make perfect rows, allow you to speak "Who's that cute Indian actress that was in Slumdog Millionaires?" and within 5 seconds display her picture and biography .... NONE of that was predicted by anyone until it happened.
Gene Roddenberry predicted these things on Star Trek.
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...flights to Jupiter on near-light-speed ion reaction drives, huge undersea cities...
I first read about ion engines in the SRA "reading lab" in my 5th grade public school class. It must have been important to me, because that's the only specific thing I remember reading in that set.
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Wait until the self driving cars come out and they decide it is less dangerous to the occupant to run over a motorcycle than into a F150.
I seriously doubt a vehicle that will always be paying attention to the road and will always without fail follow at correct stopping distances for the conditions will ever get itself into that situation. Certainly far less likely than been run over by bubba in his 150 after he's had a brew or six.
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I seriously doubt a vehicle that will always be paying attention to the road and will always without fail follow at correct stopping distances for the conditions will ever get itself into that situation. Certainly far less likely than been run over by bubba in his 150 after he's had a brew or six.
I agree. Google's self-driving cars (with human passenger/supervisors, I think) have been circulating the streets of California for some time. Google reported that all of their very few accidents had been the fault of other drivers, often when the Google car did something unexpected but prescribed by law, like stopping at a stop sign.
I drive like a Google car when I drive my car. Wish everyone did.
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I agree. Google's self-driving cars (with human passenger/supervisors, I think) .....
That "supervisor" thing ....
I remember back in the 80s (when 4 of us young engineering types were working in a trailer on a job site), one of the guys had just bought a new Honda Prelude of which he was very proud, especially of the fact that it had "cruise control".
I asked if the 4 cylinder engine handled the cruise control OK, and he said "Well, you have to give it a little extra throttle to get up a long hill ... "
The other three of us were in mental tune somehow, and we started in with "Oh, THAT kind of cruise control! Yes, I've got that on my '66 AMC Rebel." and "Oh, yes, I've had cruise control for years, I make sure it's on every car I've had. Yep, just push on the gas to make it hold its speed, yep, I've got that too" and we guyed him till he was livid (you know how guys do once they get started).
Supervised "driving" on designated California streets .... yep, I've got that .....
Lannis
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I really think the "self driving car" thing is a long way off. I know people are working on the idea, but I'm not sure why. Techies are just geeky like that, I guess. They have lots of variables to work out and program for, plus liability has to be worked out.
In the 1960s, Star Trek's "communicators" and "Tricorders" seemed like way-out devices. Having wireless access to phone networks and computer networks! Now, everyone has a "tricorder" on their hip, in the form of a smart phone.
I don't doubt that smart highways and self driving cars are part of the future. I just think it will be sometime after I've hung up my car keys for the last time.
Good points. I wonder though, we've managed to jump ahead of liability tissues and many laws and even public morality with lots of tech things and still they happened. Look at privacy issues and the Internet, freedom of speech and Facebook/Twitter and so on.
Few of us expected the rapid advances we now all accept.
Rocker, you've brought up such an interesting (to me at least) branch in that post. We can embrace certain new technologies because they don't overtly challenge our control yet for something like a car where we'd basically become a passenger the idea that it might come pretty soon seems unlikely.
The self driving car affects far more than just the driving, there is the rest of the experience of using a car, from fueling it to tuning and accessorizing it that would be affected. With all the sensors you probably couldn't use any tires except those prescribed and authorized much less add a side window wind deflector. The self driving car removes our control from.something so many see as such a personal thing, their car and makes it not much more than an iPhone where everyone whonhas one has the same thing. Welcome to 1984 and groupthink.
I do see problems with the self driving car but none that can stop it from getting here sooner than later. They companies developing them are amassing huge amounts of data to prove they are safer than cars with human drivers. The data will also prove that they can save lots of money, reduce congestion and improve productivity of the general economy and that right there is enough for many to look then other way because figuring out liability generally happens after the accident, not before. There are already active collision avoidance systems in some cars.
If you are riding one one side of a car and some fool on the opposite lane crowds the car in the middle, what does the system do? You own the car, you own the liability and beyond that, court time.
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I agree. Google's self-driving cars (with human passenger/supervisors, I think) have been circulating the streets of California for some time. Google reported that all of their very few accidents had been the fault of other drivers, often when the Google car did something unexpected but prescribed by law, like stopping at a stop sign.
I drive like a Google car when I drive my car. Wish everyone did.
I'm going to bet that self driving cars will be here sooner than many think. You wouldn't need to own/maintain it. Just get on your comm device..whatever that is.. and a car shows up at your doorstep. Get in, tell it where to go, pop open a beer, and surf WG on the way.
The technology is here, now.
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Well.... it is difficult to look
cool hip on those new bikes with a huge helmet covering your face!
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/old%20style%20riding%20clothes_zpshvp8ack8.jpg)
Cant ride properly without mah foxtail!
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I'm going to bet that self driving cars will be here sooner than many think. You wouldn't need to own/maintain it. Just get on your comm device..whatever that is.. and a car shows up at your doorstep. Get in, tell it where to go, pop open a beer, and surf WG on the way.
The technology is here, now.
Imagine the hacking opportunities. Tell all the self driving cars to avoid all the roads we like to ride on and problem solved. Imagine being able to head out on that great sweeper roads that goes for mikes and miles without worrying about some sled driver drifting over then line because they believe all those TV commercials about the ultimate driving machine.
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Imagine the hacking opportunities. Tell all the self driving cars to avoid all the roads we like to ride on and problem solved. Imagine being able to head out on that great sweeper roads that goes for mikes and miles without worrying about some sled driver drifting over then line because they believe all those TV commercials about the ultimate driving machine.
A friend jokingly tried to run for state rep based on a platform similar to that idea . No vehicles with more than 3 wheels allowed on secondary roads on weekends and holidays . Unfortunately , the concept met with very limited acceptance . Dang , my emos aren't working again .
Dusty
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Self driving cars? Geez, most of you have new vehicles with so many driver intervention features it's almost self driving.. :grin:
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I'm going to bet that self driving cars will be here sooner than many think. You wouldn't need to own/maintain it. Just get on your comm device..whatever that is.. and a car shows up at your doorstep. Get in, tell it where to go, pop open a beer, and surf WG on the way.
The technology is here, now.
The technology has been here for years for self-flying airplanes, and airliners.
Why on EARTH do the airlines pay senior captains $150,000 a year to sit in a cockpit, and a co-pilot next to him, when it's completely useless to do so?
Whatever it is, it's the same reason that (outside of very specific and limited conditions), there won't be self-driving cars all over the place ....
Lannis
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The technology has been here for years for self-flying airplanes, and airliners.
Why on EARTH do the airlines pay senior captains $150,000 a year to sit in a cockpit, and a co-pilot next to him, when it's completely useless to do so?
Whatever it is, it's the same reason that (outside of very specific and limited conditions), there won't be self-driving cars all over the place ....
Lannis
Well, actually an airplane has to deal with 3D rather than 2D. And weather. *Much* more complicated. Sure, most of the time it's on autopilot. When it's not is where they earn their money.
I'll bet there are self driving cars in big cities in my (limited) <sigh> lifetime. :smiley:
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Well, actually an airplane has to deal with 3D rather than 2D. And weather. *Much* more complicated. Sure, most of the time it's on autopilot. When it's not is where they earn their money.
I'll bet there are self driving cars in big cities in my (limited) <sigh> lifetime. :smiley:
The 3D argument is a bit really fatally weak. Computers don't care about 3D vs 2D, that's strictly a human limitation. Maintaining altitude, following GPS-generated flight paths and approach glide-slopes, and maintaining distance from other planes is WAY simpler than trying to do the same thing on a crowded highway in a car.
The real reason is that someone with eyes and a brain has to be there to take over if the computer finds a situation that it hasn't been programmed to deal with. And that'll never change.
I was going to take on your wager, but I realized that if I win and you didn't put the winning wager in your will, I'm hosed. Or maybe I'll go first, then it's YOU on the hook ....
Lannis
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Well, actually an airplane has to deal with 3D rather than 2D. And weather. *Much* more complicated. Sure, most of the time it's on autopilot. When it's not is where they earn their money.
I'll bet there are self driving cars in big cities in my (limited) <sigh> lifetime. :smiley:
Yep , and once they start gaining traction it will happen really fast . Young folks don't want to be bothered with things like driving , and us old folks are , well , old :laugh: Remember how much resistance there was to wearing seat belts , and the lap belts , and where the resistance came from ?
Dusty
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In today's news Tesla got to about the 90% mark. By next week, its cars will have the update and for most commute style driving, will drive themselves.
Faster than we thought.
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In today's news Tesla got to about the 90% mark. By next week, its cars will have the update and for most commute style driving, will drive themselves.
Faster than we thought.
It's always getting ready to get ready to happen. We'll see. No tricks or guardo moves with "commute style driving", either. Just driving.
Lannis
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Used to be easier to ride in traffic before cellphones, when the drivers were more focused on driving!
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/driving-under-hypnosis_zps6z6wz4sz.jpg)
:tongue:
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Well.... it is difficult to look cool hip on those new bikes with a huge helmet covering your face!
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/old%20style%20riding%20clothes_zpshvp8ack8.jpg)
Cant ride properly without mah foxtail!
yeah, but the cars weren't any safer. Steel dash, no seatbelts, no crush zones, lots of glass, strong frames/weak bodies, drum brakes, approximate steering, bias tires, extra weight induced inertia and lots of ashtrays.
:shocked:
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The 3D argument is a bit really fatally weak. Computers don't care about 3D vs 2D, that's strictly a human limitation. Maintaining altitude, following GPS-generated flight paths and approach glide-slopes, and maintaining distance from other planes is WAY simpler than trying to do the same thing on a crowded highway in a car.
The real reason is that someone with eyes and a brain has to be there to take over if the computer finds a situation that it hasn't been programmed to deal with. And that'll never change.
I was going to take on your wager, but I realized that if I win and you didn't put the winning wager in your will, I'm hosed. Or maybe I'll go first, then it's YOU on the hook ....
Lannis
Obviously.. or not.. :azn: you haven't driven an airplane much. There is weather that changes pretty rapidly and needs a brain at the controls occasionally. :wink: Wind shear, for instance. Not really predictable, but deadly if not acted upon... or avoided by someone with a brain. That's *not* the only case, just an example.
Airline pilots are underpaid, IMHO.
On the wager, it's a lose lose situation for us. :smiley: :boozing:
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Obviously.. or not.. :azn: you haven't driven an airplane much.
No, I haven't - but if I were 13 years old I could take pilot training, at 14 could solo in a glider, and get my full license at 16 .... younger than a full license in a car in many places. If a computer can deal with a deer jumping in front of a car, or a bicyclist swerving into the lane, I'll betcha it can deal with wind-shear quicker than a person can. It's what computers DO ....
But ... as I keep saying but I can't resist responding ... we'll know soon!
Lannis
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I like this. It puts things in perspective (mortality usually does). Motorcycling is fun, it keeps me feeling vital and young, but at the same time I feel no need for more horsepower than I can have with any 70's era bike -- that is, enough to kill me or get me arrested. I no longer race but I do like a brisk ride at reasonable angles.
Kudos to Harley, a company that learned to build a whole culture around its products. It's not my culture, but it's a brilliant phenomenon.
I agree with this statement!
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Decided to go on a chilly ride this morning and stopped by a major motorcycle dealer who sells the four major Japanese brands. The big 4 basically build three road bike styles ...Harley look-a-likes, Racers, and Adventure bikes.
It was a refreshing ride home on my Guzzi.
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The big 4 basically build three road bike styles ...Harley look-a-likes, Racers, and Adventure bikes.
Luckily it looks like a fourth category has emerged, which includes some motorcycles like the Ninja 300 and the KTM 390.
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Look Ma no hands..
(https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/Guzzi/i-ZHtxkGG/0/L/Screen%20shot%202015-11-18%20at%202.23.53%20PM-L.png)
right down US 169 at hwy speeds. the car did all the driving, slowing, changing lanes etc.
(https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/Guzzi/i-27bqjZq/0/L/Screen%20shot%202015-11-18%20at%202.22.24%20PM-L.png)
The future is upon us..
(https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/Guzzi/i-pgkswm2/0/L/Screen%20shot%202015-11-18%20at%202.21.48%20PM-L.png)
I didn't ask to drive it, what would be the point?
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How is that any different than what the other 99% of commuters do on a daily basis? :azn:
You know, that guy has to hold his hands like that the entire time in case something goes bonkers. Its usually the other driver doing the dirty deed so he really can't relax much.
Reminds me to stay away from Teslas.
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it's safer . the car will stop itself before crashing
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it's safer . the car will stop itself before crashing
What happens though: car behind, you riding on the left and the guy on the right moves into the Teslas lane?
Calculation...bike causes less damage, move over and on top of bike.
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Seems like I remember a certain member who's name starts with an L saying it'll never happen.. :smiley:
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Just curious...why would a self driving car need a steering wheel? (Somewhat serious question)...
Is there a manual override option here so when it goes into the shop it can actually be driven in, or does it maneuver itself onto the rack for an inspection?
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How is that any different than what the other 99% of commuters do on a daily basis? :azn:
You know, that guy has to hold his hands like that the entire time in case something goes bonkers. Its usually the other driver doing the dirty deed so he really can't relax much.
Reminds me to stay away from Teslas.
I think he is holding his hands like that either because he is Italian and must use his hands to speak , or more likely to accentuate the fact that the car is driving its self .
Did hear something about the Google car getting pulled over by the po po . One wonders how that exchange went ? " Drivers license and registration please." Silence . "Oh , being a smart guy huh , step out of the car. "
Silence . "Now SIR , out of the car." Silence . "OK , now you are in a heap o' trouble." Silence .
Dusty
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It does only selfdrive on motorways, not in the city. Thats to difficult still.
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It does only selfdrive on motorways, not in the city. Thats to difficult still.
it self drives anywhere you can set speed with cruise control.
I think he is holding his hands like that either because he is Italian and must use his hands to speak
State Representative Pat Garofalo that sound Italian?
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it self drives anywhere you can set speed with cruise control.
The Google car can self drive anywhere that has been mapped for such purposes , surface streets , freeways , deal with stop lights , etc . Don't know why the Tesla would be limited .
Dusty
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So it self drives on the ten lane Los Angeles freeways?
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Yep it can and they are probably already doing so.. you wanna change lanes just turn on the signal and it does it..
for you current owners the software can be bought and installed in your existing tesla.
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So when a Tesla in auto-pilot mode hits something\someone - whose fault is it? The owner or Tesla? OR both? Or whomever has the deepest pockets?
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Just shocking!
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So when a Tesla in auto-pilot mode hits something\someone - whose fault is it? The owner or Tesla? OR both? Or whomever has the deepest pockets?
A very good question . My understanding based on nothing but some reading is that the self driving cars will require insurance the same as driver operated cars . The insurance companies seem to be discussing lower rates on Google cars based on a decreased risk . Still , a very good question that probably has not been answered completely yet .
Dusty
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In the Tesla there must be a "driver" in the seat and he is liable for any action the car takes.
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driver stays always responsible. Also what Tesla thinks, they can't take responsibility for all tesla accidents.
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Hell, they cannot even get my automatic transmission to shift before the engine hits the rev limiter. Thing dies on me when I need it to go.
What makes you really think that full automatic control will ever be anywhere close to reliable to the level needed ?
With many things, it sure sounds cool :rolleyes:
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driver stays always responsible. Also what Tesla thinks, they can't take responsibility for all tesla accidents.
It seems like it would have to be the driver, as the driver is the one actively putting the Tesla into automatic mode.
Let's hope automatic here doesn't mean it turns into an Audi 5000 unintended acceleration issue when the ACC unit goes on the fritz and can't properly calculate distances between the cars.
Why anyone would want to give up the sheer joy of driving is beyond me...although there are probably people who shouldn't be driving, this might be an interesting alternative, but I just can't see those people shelling out $80K for a Tesla and then the add'l bucks for the self driving software. Might just be cheaper to hire an Uber...
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Why anyone would want to give up the sheer joy of driving is beyond me...
Actually I never cared much for driving anything with 4 or more wheels , well , except for the occasional foray in hi-po go karts and a bit of auto crossing many years ago .
Dusty
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Cruise Automatic Redundant Control
CARC
See, you've had it all this time and didn't know it.
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I would love one. I could nap in between service calls :-)
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It seems like it would have to be the driver, as the driver is the one actively putting the Tesla into automatic mode.
Let's hope automatic here doesn't mean it turns into an Audi 5000 unintended acceleration issue when the ACC unit goes on the fritz and can't properly calculate distances between the cars.
Why anyone would want to give up the sheer joy of driving is beyond me...although there are probably people who shouldn't be driving, this might be an interesting alternative, but I just can't see those people shelling out $80K for a Tesla and then the add'l bucks for the self driving software. Might just be cheaper to hire an Uber...
Soon UBER WILL PICK YOU UP DRIVERLESS. and Tesla is not the only manufacturer working on this, they all are so in 5 or so years a much less expensive car could have the self drive feature. and soon those cars will all talk to each other so they can know what's ahead of the car in front of the line of self drivers.
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Can anyone explain to me how the driver, who makes $30k a year as a state representative, can afford a $100,000+ Tesla?
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Can anyone explain to me how the driver, who makes $30k a year as a state representative, can afford a $100,000+ Tesla?
You're kidding.. right? :smiley:
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Can anyone explain to me how the driver, who makes $30k a year as a state representative, can afford a $100,000+ Tesla?
State rep? that's a part time gig, He's got a real job that pays big money.
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The Google car can self drive anywhere that has been mapped for such purposes , surface streets , freeways , deal with stop lights , etc . Don't know why the Tesla would be limited .
Dusty
Google and Tesla are taking pretty much opposite approaches to autonomous cars. Google is taking the mapping approach. They map everywhere they expect the car to go down to the centimeter and the car bases its decisions on that. Most of the cars information resides in the cloud and the actual on-board capability is fairly sparse. It's pretty limited on dealing with the unexpected outside of a small universe of expected unexpected things, if that makes any sense. In exchange, it's highly precise and can find parking spaces and that sort of thing.
Tesla is taking the sensor approach. The car knows very little about where it is and where its going but it carries an enormous amount of onboard intelligence to sense the immediate world around it so it's better with trafficky things like braking cars, crossing animals, and the like. The tradeoff is that it can back into a parking space on its own but it can't decide whether the space is big enough unless you tell it.
The eventual autonomous car that people drive will be a merger of these approaches.
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Google and Tesla are taking pretty much opposite approaches to autonomous cars. Google is taking the mapping approach. They map everywhere they expect the car to go down to the centimeter and the car bases its decisions on that. Most of the cars information resides in the cloud and the actual on-board capability is fairly sparse. It's pretty limited on dealing with the unexpected outside of a small universe of expected unexpected things, if that makes any sense. In exchange, it's highly precise and can find parking spaces and that sort of thing.
Tesla is taking the sensor approach. The car knows very little about where it is and where its going but it carries an enormous amount of onboard intelligence to sense the immediate world around it so it's better with trafficky things like braking cars, crossing animals, and the like. The tradeoff is that it can back into a parking space on its own but it can't decide whether the space is big enough unless you tell it.
The eventual autonomous car that people drive will be a merger of these approaches.
Interesting , thanks for educating us .
Dusty
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The idea of self driving cars un-nerves me. This keeps popping into my head...
http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2008/10_cars/herbie.jpg
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ALL RIGHTY THEN! LETS ROLL!!
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/baby%20trucker_zpssfuav8ys.jpg)
:huh:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-kdRdzxdZQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-kdRdzxdZQ)
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I'd like to have one. Would love it for cross country driving. Might convince me to get another motorhome :)
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They still have not made a car that has turn signals that operate automatically. You expect them to make a sudden leap forward to cars that can drive themselves reliably.
:rolleyes:
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Nice car, the Model S 70D is in the $60K price range depending on your location. As a comparison, the Cadillac ELR Coupe starts at $57,500.
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They still have not made a car that has turn signals that operate automatically. You expect them to make a sudden leap forward to cars that can drive themselves reliably.
:rolleyes:
Seems that may be the point Wayne , eliminate the , er , non turn indicator using operator :laugh:
OK Pennie , here is your chance to dazzle us :bike-037:
Dusty
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So if you're in 1 of these Teslas you can get drunk and it's no big deal `cause you're not really driving ? Kind of like being in the back of a motorhome rolling down the road or a limousine?
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I think he is holding his hands like that either because he is Italian and must use his hands to speak , or more likely to accentuate the fact that the car is driving its self .
Did hear something about the Google car getting pulled over by the po po . One wonders how that exchange went ? " Drivers license and registration please." Silence . "Oh , being a smart guy huh , step out of the car. "
Silence . "Now SIR , out of the car." Silence . "OK , now you are in a heap o' trouble." Silence .
Dusty
And would you actually need a DL to show the coppers?
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I'd like to have one. Would love it for cross country driving. Might convince me to get another motorhome :)
How many miles does a Tesla go before the battery pack is drained , 250 -300 miles? So then you pull into a charging station. fill up with electricity and drive off in 5 minutes? Or do you wait all night for the tank to fill ? :grin:
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And would you actually need a DL to show the coppers?
And when the self driving cars all meet up for a few drinks , is there that one that starts bragging about it outran the po po , or got a ticket for doing 47 in a 45 MPH zone ? :rolleyes:
Dusty
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The tech is a little limited at the moment but once there are millions of cars like the tesla on the road and the vehicles can start to interact with each other it will really start to work because the cars will have not only the benefit of the sensors but those of vehicles around them so they won't crash into each other they will work on together. There will be no cutting people up, cars will filter into lanes neat and tidy left, right, left, right. Probably end up with the outside lane reserved for them. Could be bad news for BMW owners, be able to get around quicker in a Google car. Probably make roads better and safer for mopeds and small bikes. Might be a different story for big bikes.
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One wonders if police cars will also become self driving ? Might make high speed pursuits kind of boring .
"This is unit 156 , we are in pursuit of a white sedan , speeds approaching 51 MPH , now we are stopping at the intersection of Main and Asimov Blvd ."
Dusty
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And of course at some point, the ethical questions need to be answered. The vehicle determines that the accident is un-avoidable. Does it save the single person in it? OR does it save the 6 people in the other vehicle and sacrifice it's own passenger? Or does it drive onto the sidewalk and kill the pedestrians? The software running autonomous vehicles will have to be programmed to handle all situations that they encounter. So someone gets to decide who maybe lives\who maybe dies.
OR maybe it just throws it 'hands' in the air, closes its 'eyes' and hopes for the best.
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"Gay Deceiver, take me home!"
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So if you're in 1 of these Teslas you can get drunk and it's no big deal `cause your not really driving ? Kind of like being in the back of a motorhome rolling down the road or a limousine?
Mhhhh .... and all the decisions as to whether to stop, swerve, crash into a wall or take out the kid have already been made for us by a faceless programmer somewhere.
When one of these cars kills their first person, the fall out from will make the VW debacle look like a drop in the ocean
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This is way over-yhped. My boss has one and I've driven it. their so called self driving is no where near as sophisticated as a google car. Basically it follows lane lines and controls speed. It does not recognize stop signs, lights, or any traffic instruction. If you're in the right lane and there is an exit, it sometimes takes the exit cause it's following the lines. If you're on a street where it can't see the lines, it just turns off. If you take your hands off the wheel for more than 3 minutes it will start warning you to put them back.
The auto speed control is kind of nice but the steering thing is pretty worthless. Just a gimmick really.
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A very good question . My understanding based on nothing but some reading is that the self driving cars will require insurance the same as driver operated cars . The insurance companies seem to be discussing lower rates on Google cars based on a decreased risk . Still , a very good question that probably has not been answered completely yet .
Dusty
Because there are so many that can't be trusted to drive w/o distractions of their mobile devices, food, makeup, etc, once the technology can be trusted by the insurance companies more than people, the insurance companies will be the ones to mandate that no one can drive their own car any more. They will do this through rates. You'll pay 10X or more to drive your own car. I'm not sure what this means for motorcycles.
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I'm not sure what this means for motorcycles.
Our rates should go down because there will be less people out there trying to kill us.
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This is way over-yhped. My boss has one and I've driven it. their so called self driving is no where near as sophisticated as a google car. Basically it follows lane lines and controls speed. It does not recognize stop signs, lights, or any traffic instruction. If you're in the right lane and there is an exit, it sometimes takes the exit cause it's following the lines. If you're on a street where it can't see the lines, it just turns off. If you take your hands off the wheel for more than 3 minutes it will start warning you to put them back.
The auto speed control is kind of nice but the steering thing is pretty worthless. Just a gimmick really.
True but you can buy the Tesla now.. when / where do you get a Google car?
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Because there are so many that can't be trusted to drive w/o distractions of their mobile devices, food, makeup, etc, once the technology can be trusted by the insurance companies more than people, the insurance companies will be the ones to mandate that no one can drive their own car any more. They will do this through rates. You'll pay 10X or more to drive your own car. I'm not sure what this means for motorcycles.
Our rates should go down because there will be less people out there trying to kill us.
Well , these are questions that have no answers ... yet . My best guess is that MC insurance won't change much , and when and IF self driving cars become safe and practical , the insurance rates will be 20% than driver operated cars . One trend that seems to be already gaining steam is the shared car . Self driving cars will make this even more practical , order up a ride by phone or Email , and it magically appears , when you are done , it parks its self in the nearest available designated spot . We live in interesting times .
Dusty
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Our rates should go down because there will be less people out there trying to kill us.
I hate when I laugh so hard I spit out my coffee.
:rolleyes:
The insurance 'machine' will continue to want to profit by billions. If some rates drop, others will have to go up.
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You can see what this is leading to.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/robots-driving_zps4ipebpl7.jpg)
More dummy drivers. :rolleyes:
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And of course at some point, the ethical questions need to be answered. The vehicle determines that the accident is un-avoidable. Does it save the single person in it? OR does it save the 6 people in the other vehicle and sacrifice it's own passenger? Or does it drive onto the sidewalk and kill the pedestrians? The software running autonomous vehicles will have to be programmed to handle all situations that they encounter. So someone gets to decide who maybe lives\who maybe dies.
OR maybe it just throws it 'hands' in the air, closes its 'eyes' and hopes for the best.
The Adaptive Cruise Control on my new car says "APPLY BRAKE" , basically "over to you" when something outside set parameters occurs.
It can of course apply the brakes itself.
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Can anyone explain to me how the driver, who makes $30k a year as a state representative, can afford a $100,000+ Tesla?
have two jobs, as a legislator the Representative earns $31,140/year.. He also claimed $6,600 in per diem (2012) $11,197 (2011) don't know about 2013-15 yet..
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Too many complexities to unleash these in any quantities.
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The Adaptive Cruise Control on my new car says "APPLY BRAKE" , basically "over to you" when something outside set parameters occurs.
It can of course apply the brakes itself.
So - throw hands in air and wait for the human to handle it. Interesting, but I think the hype for the self-driving car is pushing the meme that the car takes car of everything - no human interaction at all.
Personally, I don't trust the folks thinking this up and implementing the software\firmware. I have been in computer engineering as a developer\tester for 30 years and I just don't share the confidence in this expressed by the folks promoting it. Airplanes still fall out of the sky and the pilots are very well trained - which is not what I would call the average motorist and the self-driving car is an attempt to let tech take car of the driving and remove the human completely because they are not capable.
Fortunately I'll most likely be dead and gone before this ever goes into general use.
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In these neck of the woods what scares me most isn't the Prius driver, the elder in a Buick, a youngster in a lowered Honda or an 18/wheeler taking up their entire lane, it is the high performance car, truck and ,SUV driver. The ones with 300,400 and up to 700 horsepower that think the on ramps and every straight is their opportunity to "open er up" switching in and out of traffic . The most common car I see driven this way is a BMW, maybe because everything thinks they are the Ultimate Driver.
Will auto driving cars reduce the market for ultra high performance cars? Sure, there will always be those willing to pay for higher performance but if you look at who is now driving electric cars, a lot of them used to be in high horsepower cars sitting in traffic.
The auto drive car is nearly here.
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I hope the self-driving vehicles wait to become the default until I'm no longer riding or driving.
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You forget that electric cars ARE high performance. They may not have 400 HP but they don't need it when you have 1000 ft lbs of torque from rest. Electric bikes are the same, if you test ride a Zero with a lowly 58 hp, your big block guzzi is going to feel like a slow fat pig when you get back on. Torque is king.
I think there will always be a market for the high performance car. And there will also always be morons that think they're Ayrton Senna and will drive like it.
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What's the difference between a high performance car and a high performance motorcycle? The bike causes less collateral damage when it crashes...
Cars, and to some extent bikes, are requiring less drive input to control them....I bet the majority of drivers cannot deal with a clutch pedal and non power assisted steering...back up proximity devices and cameras so the driver need not actually look or check clearances before getting in the car.. Maybe driving/riding should be mindless like using a toaster..
The 180 hp bikes and 600 hp cars are the last grasp for us Americans to be manly :thumb:
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self driving cars will end human driving. once it is shown that self driving cars are safer than humans, you will be paying a premium with your insurance company to have your hands on the wheel...
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In these neck of the woods what scares me most isn't the Prius driver, the elder in a Buick, a youngster in a lowered Honda or an 18/wheeler taking up their entire lane, it is the high performance car, truck and ,SUV driver. The ones with 300,400 and up to 700 horsepower that think the on ramps and every straight is their opportunity to "open er up" switching in and out of traffic . The most common car I see driven this way is a BMW, maybe because everything thinks they are the Ultimate Driver.
Will auto driving cars reduce the market for ultra high performance cars? Sure, there will always be those willing to pay for higher performance but if you look at who is now driving electric cars, a lot of them used to be in high horsepower cars sitting in traffic.
The auto drive car is nearly here.
300 hp V6 is normal these days. Do you live in a cave??? :boozing:
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I too believe that self-driving cars will be the norm, sooner than we think.
When self-propelled autos first appeared they were a novelty, and subject to all kinds of restraints and rules to avoid disrupting the horse-drawn traffic.
Within ten years, the number of automobiles on the road equaled the number of horses. Ten years after that, horses had been relegated to rural backroads. With the generally faster pace of life today, I don't expect the transition to driverless cars to take that long, once the regulatory hurdles have been cleared. (Although I hope I'm wrong.)
I have to say that I view traffic exactly the opposite of Norge Pilot, though. Its the slow drivers I'm scared of. Whether they're blocking the left lane, requiring unnecessary and unsafe lane changes to get around, failing to get up to merging speed on an on-ramp, or creating a long line of frustrated drivers on a two-lane, they're road hazards, plain and simple. If I'm overtaken by a faster driver, in contrast, they pass, continue on their way, and are no concern of mine. I don't have to adjust my driving or give them a second thought. Faster drivers also tend to exhibit more situational awareness and are better at signaling their intentions, in my experience. Anyway, just my two cents. YMMV.
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And then there is this:
A Florida woman thought she got away from a hit-and-run, until her own car called the cops.
Cathy Bernstein, 57, tried speeding off after hitting both a truck and a van near Northwest Prima Vista Boulevard, but her Ford cut her escape short, police said.
The car's 911 Assist system SYNC, gave details to police, including her location, and put Bernstein on the phone with a dispatch. The system automatically calls police if the car's been involved in an accident that deploys a car's airbag, according to Ford's website.
http://www.nydailynews.com/fla-woman-car-calls-police-alleged-hit-and-run-article-1.2456939?utm_content=bufferf94d3&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
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This is way over-yhped. My boss has one and I've driven it. their so called self driving is no where near as sophisticated as a google car. Basically it follows lane lines and controls speed. It does not recognize stop signs, lights, or any traffic instruction. If you're in the right lane and there is an exit, it sometimes takes the exit cause it's following the lines. If you're on a street where it can't see the lines, it just turns off. If you take your hands off the wheel for more than 3 minutes it will start warning you to put them back.
That's just what they've enabled. If you've got 38 minutes, check out this video from the CEO of Mobileye, one of Tesla's technology enablers on the self-driving side. It's not known how much of the tech in that video already exists and how much is still in development and it's not known what subset of the existing technology can be enabled in the current Teslas with their existing sensor setup. But pretty much everyone thinks that at least some additional technology is available in the more recently-built cars now and Musk is just waiting for the right time to turn it on.
Edited to add: It would help if I included the actual video, huh? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp3ik5f3-2c
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I really find the prospects of electric bikes interesting - Zero and Saietta look like best at the moment. Full recharge in about 2 hours. In a few years that could be under one hour.
The future of biker meets might be chatting around the recharge point with a hot mug of tea brewed by lifting what would have in days gone by been the gas filler dropping the mug in and pressing the heat button - a simple but useful option on future E-bike. Supping our tea we ignore the abuse being hurled at us by Tesla banker types who need access to charge there cumbersome cages, a useful safety feature of their self drive vehicle preventing it driving too close between the numerous parked recharging bikes