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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kentktk on June 09, 2015, 01:25:25 AM
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Explained through Physics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgUOOwnZcDU
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Kent,
Pretty good video. Counter steering is fascinating. When I resumed riding after nearly 30 years, the entire process of turning a bike came back quickly. Thinking about it though, produced confusion. Steer with the inside arm -- learned decades ago, helped turn off the brain games. Bicycle riding is a contrast as most is at very slow speeds compared to a motorcycle.
What this video does not really discuss: traction (mu times the normal force) that is also a key component of cornering a motorcycle.
Thanks!
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OK I enjoyed that, thanks! :thumb:
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That's exactly what I was saying. In a last ditch effort you need to use the countersteering to avoid an instant object. I have done that a couple times as needed.
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Thanks for posting what looks like an accurate description of countersteering.
As an ex-MSF instructor, I find the misinformation to be potentially dangerous.
Everyone should go out occasionally and find a safe place to practice quick countersteering , swerving, and maximum braking.
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Bicycle riding is a contrast as most is at very slow speeds compared to a motorcycle.
While the speeds are much slower, the same physics apply to bicycles, esp. at higher speeds. I know that there are others on this forum that also ride bicycles. I frequently hit speeds above 20 MPH (frequently 35-40 on downhills) -- at these speeds, the best steering technique is very much the same as a motorcycle.
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While the speeds are much slower, the same physics apply to bicycles, esp. at higher speeds. I know that there are others on this forum that also ride bicycles. I frequently hit speeds above 20 MPH (frequently 35-40 on downhills) -- at these speeds, the best steering technique is very much the same as a motorcycle.
Absolutely. Even below 20 mph on a bicycle, to make a quick avoidance maneuver, countersteering is required. It's the quickest way to get a 2-wheeled vehicle leaned for a turn.
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That's exactly what I was saying. In a last ditch effort you need to use the countersteering to avoid an instant object. I have done that a couple times as needed.
IF you are saying that you've ONLY done that a couple of times, you're mistaken.
That video was PERFECT in its explanations, but what it did NOT say was that "you ALWAYS initiate a turn at speed in this manner".
The reasons were touched upon in the video, but the concept was not expressed. Simply put, a motorcycle at speed has too much force for you to overcome it SIMPLY by leaning or throwing your weight to one side. In order to get it to break over for the turn (i.e. to initiate the turn) you COUNTERSTEER.
Man, this sucks, cause I typed all this in that last thread.
Once the countersteer has set up the balanced lean angle for the speed and tightness of the curve (and that angle at any given speed/curve varies with how much you do or don't shift your weight) then you will be able to turn the bike and you no longer countersteer... the bike will continue around that curve at that speed/angle until you change one of the inputs.
But the Keith Code No BS bike demonstrates to each rider who tries it, that even at typical road speeds you're not going to effectively turn a bike with JUST your weight shift alone or all the talk in the last thread about pushing "down" on the bars not "in", no it doesn't nothing unless you move the steering head.
(Did you read about the No BS bike, how it has a set of fixed handgrips and controls so that you literally aren't holding onto the steering head, and how riders will everything they can think of to try and get it to turn but can't without using the handlebars to countersteer. It's a very effective real life demonstration of the concepts touched on by this video).
EDIT - I originally put in my post in that last thread how amazing it is that we all do this, but most of us (MYSELF INCLUDED) have spent a significant time with misconceptions about it. Some people try to use photos from track shots to explain a misconception too, but the problem with most snapshots is that you don't know what happened a split second before or after. Still with the right concepts you CAN find examples of countersteering, and then leaning and steering through the turn. But you have to know what to look for, and many of us (again myself included) have spent an not insignificant amount of time not knowing for what to look.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOGQ-HePrT8
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOGQ-HePrT8
:bike-037: :bow: :bike-037:
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Millions of kids learn to ride bicycles and no one ever tells them they need to counter steer. :popcorn:
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Millions of kids learn to ride bicycles and no one ever tells them they need to counter steer. :popcorn:
Right, kids are usually pretty sharp and figure things like that out on their own, even if they don't realize it.
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Is this still a thing?
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Right, kids are usually pretty sharp and figure things like that out on their own, even if they don't realize it.
Just like the adults who do it by feel but don't understand what they are actually doing (and not ask care to understand, that's fine too).
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Jas,
No doubt you are spot on concerning bicycles also counter-steering. On my Cannondale, fastest so far, according to speedo with memory, is 22 mph. That was down a slight hill with a back wind. Guess call me turtle? No steep hills here in TX gulf coast flatness. A lot of riding is on gravel trails.
Gyroscopic effects and physics there-of fascinate me. Studied these in college physics. Other favorites remain ballistics and aiming of artillery (the classic long range cannon problem in a cross wind) and even more fun: orbital mechanics. How does as aspiring astronaut maneuver to dock the lunar lander with the command ship? The movie Gravity got a lot of that wrong. Differential equations are your friends!
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fastest so far, according to speedo with memory, is 22 mph.
22?? I used to cruise at 22. <snapping suspenders> Any more, it's more like 17, but still.. :smiley:
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The reasons were touched upon in the video, but the concept was not expressed. Simply put, a motorcycle at speed has too much force for you to overcome it SIMPLY by leaning or throwing your weight to one side. In order to get it to break over for the turn (i.e. to initiate the turn) you COUNTERSTEER.
Sure but my perception was different. When I shifted my weight I also twisted, thus inducing countersteer without realising it. After an accident and period off the bike my riding sucked (more than usual), it just felt wrong & I couldn't put my finger on it. It was because I wasn't moving as naturally across the bike & not countersteering as much (nothing felt right). It wasn't until I realised I'd been countersteering without thinking & actively worked with it that it all came back together.
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I rode for a little while today on a smooth windy stretch with the road all to myself. . . with only the throttle hand on the bar. I could be wrong, but it seemed like I was pushing the bar if I wanted to initiate a right turn. and I'd pull on the bar to initiate a left. It's pretty scientific seat-of-the-pants investigative work. I paid careful attention and tried to stay focused despite the constant barrage of honeysuckle smell and pleasant exhaust note. I may set myself up a focus group for further research.
Kent- on another note- and another bike - you've got the MV F4. Can you discern anything of the physics of the counter-rotating crank on the MV & it's purported effect of lessening the gyrotational forces of everything else spinning opposite?
It's a novel concept, but I can't tell what's counter-rotation vs. what's geometry. I'm thinking it'd take a MUCH more capable rider at hyper-speeds on track conditions.
Anyway- I like the thread. I was thinking about the process way back as a kid when I didn't care what made the bicycle go- only that it go'd.
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Chuck, yeah I told you. And the Cannondale is a pretty light bike with hybrid tires. This cold virus filled my lungs with gunk. Have not been on bicycle or motorcycle for over 2 weeks. Just breathing is a wheeze right now. In any comparative event I am almost always slowest, but I have fun. Not athletic by any stretch. Clumsy turtle is moi.
Dusty, yes counter steering works in zero-g, but remember F = mA and gravity does indeed suck, even in space. Orbits are simply falling vector matched with forward vector. Maneuvering is tricky stuff. Read somewhere that on the Apollo missions they had to train very hard to adjust to lunar orbits compared to earth orbital dynamics. Armstrong really had to finesse down the first landing, and almost ran out of fuel. Nobody had done it before. Then planetary bodies have variable gravity fields (that's geophysics for you)--and orbits vary depending on local attraction, and planets are not true spheres.
I want a lunar motorcycle. Bet that would be a hell of a dirt bike. Can you imagine the jumps? Electric powered. In and out of a crater.
Then there is Mars...can you tell I am bored? Someone needs to write a computer simulation, then port it to a game system. Yep, moto-luna....there you go, a new idea for someone with the software skills.
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While the speeds are much slower, the same physics apply to bicycles, esp. at higher speeds. I know that there are others on this forum that also ride bicycles. I frequently hit speeds above 20 MPH (frequently 35-40 on downhills) -- at these speeds, the best steering technique is very much the same as a motorcycle.
This is absolutely true, I hit mid 40's + on many of the descents around here and the biggest difference is the importance of weighting your outside pedal. Thats imperative on a bike. I was going down Old Toll Rd in Asheville a couple days ago.. according to my gps app, top speed was 47.8MPH! This is a road I ride frequently on the moto and I am certain i go no faster with an engine! Countersteer is just as important on the bike as the moto.(if you are going fast)
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I rode for a little while today on a smooth windy stretch with the road all to myself. . . with only the throttle hand on the bar. I could be wrong, but it seemed like I was pushing the bar if I wanted to initiate a right turn. and I'd pull on the bar to initiate a left. It's pretty scientific seat-of-the-pants investigative work.
That is why the MSF (at least used to) teach "push right, go right. Push left, go left". Pretty simple to think through in an emergency.
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Kent- on another note- and another bike - you've got the MV F4. Can you discern anything of the physics of the counter-rotating crank on the MV & it's purported effect of lessening the gyrotational forces of everything else spinning opposite?
I`d have to have 2 of the same bikes spinning the crank opposite ways to discern a difference. It`s not the quickest turning bike but is super stable in high speed corners which is Italian sportbike tradition. Ducati`s Pannigale is changing the genre in that it that turn in is easy to initiate. The 999 was a lot of work to turn without rider gymnastics, but once in the turn it felt like it was on rails.
One thing to try in regards to countersteering is tightening your line in a high speed turn. The only way it will happen is adding more countersteer and it can be a fairly substantial pull or push (which ever you prefer) on the bars.
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I`d have to have 2 of the same bikes spinning the crank opposite ways to discern a difference. It`s not the quickest turning bike but is super stable in high speed corners which is Italian sportbike tradition. Ducati`s Pannigale is changing the genre in that it that turn in is easy to initiate. The 999 was a lot of work to turn without rider gymnastics, but once in the turn it felt like it was on rails.
One thing to try in regards to countersteering is tightening your line in a high speed turn. The only way it will happen is adding more countersteer and it can be a fairly substantial pull or push (which ever you prefer) on the bars.
A lot of this conversation also depends on how much leverage you have turning controlled by your handlebar configuration. The difference between clip ons and wide bars is big.
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Everyone should go out occasionally and find a safe place to practice quick countersteering , swerving, and maximum braking.
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:thumb:
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Probably the most vivid counter steering event I have had on the V7R happened about 2 years ago. Coming home from church downramp and curve from Beltway 8 in Houston to 59S. Entered ramp and right curve at about 80 mph, on left lane, with a barrier to my left.
No traffic, no wind, no rain, feeling good: so I rolled on the throttle. Peripheral vision noticed I was approaching the wall as the curve tightens a bit, so I did a right hand counter gentle bump, corrected the line, also got up and off seat, knee out, and finished thru the curve at indicated 105 mph on Little Goose. Fifth gear, right at 7000 rpm rev limiter---speed dropped to 95-90 on gentle uphill portion of 59 and we went home at normal 80 on freeway.
Point is our Houston freeway ramps are fast, curvey, have the rate dip changes and do require counter steering.
Most of the riding here is flat and straight and congested. Most riders seek out the few roads with any curves, especially chained stretches, and those with moderate hills (go NW towards Hill Country).
I think a lot of the rider accidents in the Houston area are on the freeway ramps, and a key reason: riders just don't know how to counter steer at high speed, and they hit the wall, and go up and over and down. Fatal accident just like that happened this past week. Rider died and bike went thru windshield of truck below.
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Jas,
No doubt you are spot on concerning bicycles also counter-steering. On my Cannondale, fastest so far, according to speedo with memory, is 22 mph. That was down a slight hill with a back wind. Guess call me turtle? No steep hills here in TX gulf coast flatness. A lot of riding is on gravel trails.
There is one "mountain", Blue Mountain in the area (people from Colorado would laugh and call it a "hill" that is steep enough to hit 60 MPH on a pedal bike in a full tuck. The turns are steep enough that it is not a wise thing to do. For that matter, 60 MPH on 23mm wide tires pumped to 100 PSI and no suspension is not a wise thing to do. It is way more "trilling" (read: scary) then 120 MPH on a motorcycle. It's been about 10 years or more since I have do that, and I likely won't again. I had a scare when a dog ran out in front of me at about 50 MPH, and I realized that on that steep a slope with rim brakes that stopping quickly in a controlled fashion wasn't possible.
22?? I used to cruise at 22. <snapping suspenders> Any more, it's more like 17, but still.. :smiley:
When I was in my 20's, I used to average 20-22 MPH on rides that included hills. Now it is more like 15 :sad:
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You guys doing giganormous speeds on pedal power, esp down hills and such, need to remember that those things have very little trail.
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Millions of kids learn to ride bicycles and no one ever tells them they need to counter steer. :popcorn:
Good luck explaining the physics to a kid. They just figure it out like we did (with a few bruises). A couple bruises is easier than a forever puzzled look while you beat it in to him. :violent1:
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Probably the most vivid counter steering event I have had on the V7R happened about 2 years ago. Coming home from church downramp and curve from Beltway 8 in Houston to 59S. Entered ramp and right curve at about 80 mph, on left lane, with a barrier to my left.
No traffic, no wind, no rain, feeling good: so I rolled on the throttle. Peripheral vision noticed I was approaching the wall as the curve tightens a bit, so I did a right hand counter gentle bump, corrected the line, also got up and off seat, knee out, and finished thru the curve at indicated 105 mph on Little Goose. Fifth gear, right at 7000 rpm rev limiter---speed dropped to 95-90 on gentle uphill portion of 59 and we went home at normal 80 on freeway.
Point is our Houston freeway ramps are fast, curvey, have the rate dip changes and do require counter steering.
Well done, as most would stay the course reduce throttle which will stand the bike up decrease their radius and either just miss or hit the wall (hopefully just miss).
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That's an excellent point John , I think . Danged emos have quit again . Yeah , the lack of trail certainly makes for quicker steering and less stability .
Dusty
Heck my little pedal bike is very stable above 65 mph so stable I don't bother trying to turn unless it's a big sweeper. steering head angle is 74 degrees
When confronted with pavement obstacles over 50 mph, like R x R tracks that are nasty or Cattle grates, I just bunny hop them. like on the backside of Monitor pass going into Nevada (http://www.bikecal.com/MustDoClimbs/images/MonitorPass.jpg)
Of course with Ebbits Pass I have to keep heavy pressure on my bicycle brakes because I'm not a little guy.
(http://www.steephill.tv/galleries/2005/2005-05-21-markleeville-ebbetts-monitor/fullsize/the%20(un)welcoming%20sig%23e46a.jpg)
I need to ride those passes this year and do a little fly fishing.
(http://www.ebbettspassadventures.com/photos1/east_carson_river.jpg)
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Perhaps he means from the horizontal. That would give him 26 degrees.
I had a friend who achieved 45mph on his racy treddly coming down Dyers Pass road (Port Hills Christchurch) once. He got a speeding ticket for it and was quite proud of it. I thought he was nuts.
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don't forget you or sitting on three gyroscop when riding on a moving motorcycle. with rotation you have what we use to call regegative. when you try to turn a gyro it will tilt and if you try to turn it, it will tilt. but all effects take place 90 deg. in the direction of rotation. why do you think when coming to a stop lite if you rib your engine up it want's to stand up more by it's self. That's a five min. course on gyro's and motorcycle.rudyr
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I have received some requests to repost this blurb and am happy to do so if someone finds it either entertaining or useful.
The thing is, that in my experience using counter steer pressures to steer the bike actually works. And further more makes riding a much more relaxed experience. The why of it is less important (and much argued about)
I wrote an article once about this, and may have even put it on this board on one occasion, I can't quite remember. Anyway the first part of it describes how I came to learn about it and I'll include that below.
I hope that even if it doesn't convince you, that at least it will prove an entertaining read.
Please do remember that this was written for a very different audience than this one.
Her it is.
Ever notice how you can always pick a novice rider? They teeter. So, way back in the mid 60s I was teetering about the place on the old 650 I had in those days. When I parked up outside the Fountain Coffee Bar an old hand called me over. The Fountain Coffee Bar I should mention was the place where such people tended to hang out, there was often a line of bikes outside and it was of course, the social centre of the universe.
This chap advised me to steer with my knees. Push the tank though the corner with your knees he said, and let everything else follow. My riding improved 300% overnight and I then had to find some other excuse to fall off.
If you quiz a rider that has any kind of decent miles up you can usually get them to admit, somewhat shame faced, that at least once while cruising along a sealed road at sealed road speeds and looking at the scenery they had inadvertently drifted into the gravel at the side of the road. This is a pucker moment and tends to bring one back to the task at hand rather promptly. The thing is, they get stuck there. They find that the bike doesn't seem to want to get back out of the gravel.
This happens because they are scared to lean the bike in gravel at those speeds and try to just steer it out. It doesn't work. No lean = no turn. When they try to steer it out of the gravel the bike tries to go the other way. Teetering again. In the end, they either get over it and lean, come to a stop, or come a gutsa. (fall off)
Not knowing the mechanics of this caused my Rocket 3 to ride my leg over a gutter while on it's side (removing a few chunks of said leg) then to whack a wooden telegraph pole with its headlight, (just before my head did). It then rolled up the road doing itself a considerable mischief in the process.
Fastest ride in an ambulance I've ever had! Fortunately I looked worse than I was and was kicked out of the hospital the following morning. My somewhat drunk middle aged passenger had scribed a graceful arc into a nearby hedge. Not only was he wearing my helmet (which I would rather liked to have had on my head at the time) but my reaching round to stop him falling off the back seat set the whole incident into motion.
We were both leaning left causing the bike to start turning to the left. I was hanging onto the right handle bar which I pulled hard on to try and straighten the beastie up! INSTANT DISASTER .
The point is that in those days (1972) reverse (counter) steering had not been heard of by the general motor cycling public and the cause of this prang had me truly puzzled (especially as after thumping my head with a telegraph pole I did not remember much about it all until quite some time afterwards)
The only people in those days who fooled with the sacred cow of frame design were the chopper boys and their magazines were 90% strictly low grade entertainment. It was through one of those mags though, some time later, that I first learned about reverse steering. The traditional light bulb appeared above my head and illuminated the surroundings quite nicely.
I took the bike out onto a nicely deserted motorway early that Saturday morning, got up to a nice stable cruise speed of about 70mph, and took my hands off the bars. (I should perhaps point out that Brit bikes in days of yore, had a brake built into the throttle. I liked mine set so that the throttle would just stay where I put it.)
I extended my pointing finger and gave the right hand grip a bit of a prod. (to turn the bars left) The bike immediately leaned and turned to the right! All by itself!
I would have liked to spend a few moments with an expression of shocked amazement on my face at how well this had worked, but the fact was that the three foot high concrete motorway divider I was turning towards was arriving rather rapidly.
I duly prodded the left grip (to the right) with my left nostril picker and the bike leaned and turned to the left with casual aplomb and precision. Another right hand prod had me straightened up again. I went home and didn't think much more about it.
A few months later I was doing my annual major tour and was heading up to a place called Queenstown from a place called Invercargill. This involved some very scenic stuff especially a stretch called the Lake Road which winds around one of the mountain ranges that contain Lake Whakatipu. On a bit called the Devils Staircase, cliffs beside you, a 250 foot vertical drop to the lake, 15 kph (10 mph) corners, Beware Falling Debris' signs and all that sort of stuff, (who is this 'Debris' anyway?) I stopped to relieve myself.
Just as I was getting underway again a green sports car decided I shouldn't be there and had a go at running me off the road! I've refrained from quoting the kind of words that went through my mind, but it was definitely time to be elsewhere.
Well, a major adrenaline rush and full throttle wasn't enough. Rocket 3s didn't develop a whole lot of noise until you got to at least 3000rpm and if you really let rip and dumped the clutch you wore out a TT 100 tire and got no where. All that happened was that I got up to 70mph before I was successfully run off the road.
There I was , stuck in a 1 foot wide gravel verge with a huge drop beside me, a very, very sharp right hand corner arriving very fast and a vast drop dead ahead. There was absolutely no way I could take that corner using the gravel verge.
Dead was the appropriate word too. There was absolutely no way out of this one. I was, as the saying goes, a goner. This was so certain that I had got beyond panic and had gone into the calm peaceful acceptance phase. ... Interesting actually.
Meanwhile, the back of my mind was flipping through dusty files, sweat running down its forehead looking for something that could be used.
The distant memory of a certain afore mentioned light bulb... What the hey, I had nothing to lose, may as well try it.
I turned left, off the road! The bike popped up to the right onto the seal and hurtled round that sharp right hander, me hanging off the side of the tank and everything scraping and sending off showers of sparks. There were just inches to spare between my tires and the edge of the seal and the long drop.
I gradually got slower and slower until I got to a pretty little mountain stream. Walked upstream for a while, sat down, had about 6 cigarettes and shook like a leaf in wind tunnel.
For the thousand odd miles back to Auckland I practiced reverse steering. I found it to be a very precise and easy way to corner.
The thing I had to unlearn was the mental association of turn left, lean left In effect what was happening then was I would find my bike wanting to go one way and me trying to lean the other. Not good. Once I learned to trust the bike to take up the angle of lean it wanted for a corner and just sit on the centre of gravity and go with it, it all came together.
I have ridden using only that technique ever since. No more having to lean the bike or throwing my body about, I just sit there like a sack of spuds looking at the scenery or what ever and let the bike take me where it will. All I have to do is push the bars the wrong way.
I should emphasise that when I did the experiment on the motoway mentioned in the above article I noticed that when I pushed the the right hand handlebar to the left with my finger the bar actually came back towards me so at no stage did it appear to actually turn to the left. Rather the pressure on the bars to do so resulted in an actual turn to the right.
The reasons why reverse steering should be so (or not) is the subject of a great deal of argument and debate. Why this should be so is a bit of a mystery to me as the physics of rotational dynamics are available to any who cares to study it. It does seem very odd to my mind though that given that it works can be determined with simple experimentation and experience that people would set out to prove that it doesn't.
Every argument or experiment that tries to prove that it doesn't work comes up against one inescapable problem. It does work, as anyone can determine for themselves.
The why of it is a whole other question though and all I can do is offer up my understanding of it which may be right or wrong. It seems perfectly simple to me though and I've yet to hear anything that modifies my understanding of it.
Here then is the second part of the above article for your consideration with a repeat warning that it was written for a very different audience than this one.
The how and why of it
Two big words. Gyroscopes and precession. Enough to put any one off, but it's not hard.
A top is a gyroscope. You have all seen a top. You spin them up and they sit there on their pointy little heads spinning away merrily and not falling over.
Your wheels are gyroscopes. The forces that allow a top to balance are the same ones that hold you up on a motor cycle. It is not your balance, nor your movement, it is the wheels spinning. That is why you have to put your feet down when you stop. That is why it is harder to perform very slow speed maneuvers.
That being firmly established it is reasonable that your wheels should behave like gyroscopes and as chief pilot, equally reasonable that we have some understanding of this. This brings us to Precession. Now we don't need to worry about why precession works, you can find that out if you are interested enough, we only need to know what it does, and how that affects our bikes.
Here is the rule;
If you apply a force to the axis of a gyroscope, the action will take place 90 degrees in the direction of rotation.
For example. If you have a top spinning away and singing little top songs to itself on the desk in front of your keyboard, and you were to give the top of it a wee push to lean it toward the monitor, it will tilt, in fact, at right angles to the push. (which way depends on which way it is spinning)
Try it if you don't believe me, but don't be a bully. Remember you are much bigger and stronger than the top and can easily overpower any of the little forces a top can generate.
Now it is time to get out the felt pen and the table cloth. We need to draw/ imagine a hypothetical motorcycle with forks on it that are straight up and down, No rake, narda, zero. The front wheel is just like the top but is operating in a different plane. A sideways operating top. Forces applied to the handle bars can be translated as though they are directly applied to the axle, which of course they are, so we only need to look at forces and angles at the axle.
If you applied a force to turn the wheel, say to the left, it doesn't go there. The action takes place 90 degrees in the direction of rotation. In this case the wheel would not turn anywhere. It would just lean over to the right. You would hypothetically fall off.
Now, when we hypothetically return from our hypothetical hospital, we modify our hypothetical bike to have some angle on the forks. For the sake of clarity, let's make it 45 degrees.
This time when the force is applied to turn left, it's not a horizontal force, but one that's on a 45 degree angle. So it's going to try to turn and lean the wheel to the left, ( not just turn it) but round we go 90 degrees in the direction of rotation to the direction the action takes place on the axle, and it actually turns and leans to the right!
The relationship of lean to turn depends on the actual angle of the forks. Fork rake (angle) also affects other quite important parts of your handling, but they have no place in this already overly lengthy diatribe.
What it means is that if you apply a force to your handlebars to turn left, your bike will turn and lean to the right.. You need to be prepared to go with it.
When you go round a corner you are doing this in any case. You are just applying the same forces from a different direction. But, as I pointed out in the story section, not knowing how this worked caused the nastiest accident I've ever had, and later, knowing it saved my life.
There has been some discussion as to whether it is better pull on a bar to turn, or push on the other side. Theoretically it shouldn't matter, except for one thing.
When you pull on, say the left bar to turn right, there is a tendency to pull yourself a bit upright. Your body weight then partially resists the turn. On the other hand if you were to push the right hand bar to turn right, your body tends to follow it a bit, enhancing the turn.
For that reason I think push is better than pull. Anyway, it is easier to remember Push right, Turn right
A little addition
(http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5758/img0246pj9.jpg)
I knew I had one somewhere!
This shows one of those toy gyroscopes that you can buy. See how it is only being supported by the string at one end? (It is spinning)
It's our 90 degree rule in action. The weight of the thing is trying to tilt it down, but the action takes place 90 degrees in the direction of rotation, so it is turning round the string instead.
One thing that is not made clear above is that a gyroscope, like anything else, will keep doing what it's doing once the forces are balanced.
What that means is once you have applied the force to set your bike into a curve it will just keep on in that curve until you (or some other force like a road irregularity) do something to change it.
That means that once cornering (given that it is a constant curve and you got it just right) you could take your hands off the bars until it's time to straighten up again (or turn out of the curve). I have tried this and it works, but the realities of roads means it is probably wiser to keep at least one hand on the bars for minor adjustments.
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Thanks John . One of the most concise explanations of how a motorbike works I have ever read :bow: Funny also , always makes things easier to digest :laugh:
Dusty
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No problem Dusty, and thanks.
If you like the blurb it may pay to grab a copy of it for yourself.
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You guys are overthinking it.
It is very simple.
Aim with your inside shoulder at your intended line trough the turn .
There. Insta-Countersteering... :cool:
AND, as a bonus; now you will be smoother through those turns.
BTW, this aim-w / shoulder method also keeps you from "Target Fixation" , as the line which you are aiming on is constantly upgrading itself.
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I agree Mike
My method is a bit different but achieves the same thing through body action. I take my butt just off the saddle and move my body into the curve looking where I'm going through the curve with my head out into the curve. So my whole body is leaning into the curve, knee up or down as I choose. t Its not a lot, the movement when viewed from behind is barely discernible.
The action of moving my body, especially upper part, into the curve pushes my shoulder and arm on the bar, so I'm countersteering using my body. I just find it a more flowing method.
The only time I use the direct heave onto the bars is in an emergency where something unexpected occurs and I have no time to set up.
Its just the best way I've found, when I first got the Daytona I was months trying to get it to turn, as it was the first bike I had with something approaching modern rubber plus its was a lazy sod anyway and needed a good prod to get it to move from the vertical.
John
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That means that once cornering (given that it is a constant curve and you got it just right) you could take your hands off the bars until it's time to straighten up again (or turn out of the curve). I have tried this and it works, but the realities of roads means it is probably wiser to keep at least one hand on the bars for minor adjustments.
Absolutely. Once flicked into the turn, the machine is stable, and doesn't need or want you messing with it.. EXCEPT you are now on the side of the tire, and it is essentially smaller in diameter at the contact patch, so it needs to be rotating faster. Adding throttle all the way through the turn stabilizes the bike and makes for faster exit speeds..
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Absolutely. Once flicked into the turn, the machine is stable, and doesn't need or want you messing with it.. EXCEPT you are now on the side of the tire, and it is essentially smaller in diameter at the contact patch, so it needs to be rotating faster. Adding throttle all the way through the turn stabilizes the bike and makes for faster exit speeds..
And it just feels so good. :azn:
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The action of moving my body, especially upper part, into the curve pushes my shoulder and arm on the bar, so I'm countersteering using my body. I just find it a more flowing method.
At this point, isn't this just semantics. At the end of the day, it's still the movement of THE BAR that accomplishes everything, no?
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Yes Kev I wouldn't say its necessary semantics, by using my body I'm also slightly lowering the CG too and I find that this action allows me to initiate a smoother transition. But that's just what works for me
However Yes absolutely it is the action of pushing the bar in the desired direction is what is causing the bike to turn
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At this point, isn't this just semantics. At the end of the day, it's still the movement of THE BAR that accomplishes everything, no?
Yes pretty much so.....Riding at let's say 50 mph with hands off the bars and and steering with body English....You lean your body to the left and the bike drifts to the left...Have the bars moved to the right? Maybe no so with a very slight turn... I do this from time to time but never paid close attention to the bar position...
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Yes Kev I wouldn't say its necessary semantics, by using my body I'm also slightly lowering the CG too and I find that this action allows me to initiate a smoother transition. But that's just what works for me
However Yes absolutely it is the action of pushing the bar in the desired direction is what is causing the bike to turn
Don't get me wrong, I'm under the impression that what you are doing is all good technique.
By shifting your weight, and lower the CG a little, you're also setting up the bike so that it can turn with LESS lean angle (the weight shift allows it to reach that point of balance sooner) and I would argue that's more safety margin especially on the street right?
Yes pretty much so.....Riding at let's say 50 mph with hands off the bars and and steering with body English....You lean your body to the left and the bike drifts to the left...Have the bars moved to the right? Maybe no so with a very slight turn... I do this from time to time but never paid close attention to the bar position...
I honestly can't answer that. We've reached my unimpressive limits in knowledge of physics.
I'll once again say that the NO BS bike demonstrates we're not going to actually initiate a turn with the body English.
But I'll agree I've felt a wobble or drift if I've played with body English.
And I think we all do agree that body English has an effect on a turn (like I just said, you can change the balance point with body positioning for sure).
I will say that on yesterday's relatively brief ride I tried verifying bar movement and positions before, during, after turns and it reminded me that part of the problem with these discussions is that the movement is MINISCULE... I mean we're talking a few degrees makes all the difference (at least in the big sweepers I was riding yesterday).
Ohh, that reminds me of something funny I saw... time to start another thread.
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No offense at all Kev known you long enough "virtually" to understand where you are coming from.
I don't understand the term full body English, but my impression is when just leaning the bike, it will initiate a wide turn or general drift in that direction. Of course that could also be another input, I'm unaware of too, I never gave it that much thought.
On the no hands thing it took me a ridiculous amount of time to discover that hands off and sitting back, more upright, the bike will quite happily track by itself. However the further forward I lean towards the bars the more unstable it becomes. Same thing for the bicycle.
My unscientific anecdotal evidence also tells me that on more modern rubber, i.e. wider, the actions require to be accentuated more. If on the Sfida (LM 1000) it turns ridiculously easy (input wise) compared with the 1098. Its not that the Sfida is faster into the turn there just seems less effort required on the skinnier rubber. On the other hand the 1098 feels a lot more stable in the turn and less nervous.
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I don't understand the term full body English, but my impression is when just leaning the bike, it will initiate a wide turn or general drift in that direction. Of course that could also be another input, I'm unaware of too, I never gave it that much thought.
Did you watch the video of the no BS bike.
I believe it clearly demonstrates that you can't really initiate a turn (for all practical purposes) with JUST a lean.
That's all I'm saying.
You need an input at the steering head because of the extent of the forces involved in a motorcycle.
Bicycle is a different matter, because you and your weight far outweigh the forces involved (the mass of the bike and generally any speed/momentum/centripetal force)... of course, even then I'm not sure, it's been too many years since I rode a bicycle without hands as a kid, maybe my leaning turned the steering head even then.
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You can steer a bicycle by just weight shifting and leaning, Kev, but in practice it's sloppy compared to using the bar, and it works best at relatively high speeds. Generally things are very similar between a bicycle and a motorcycle, as far as steering technique. Things just happen quicker on a bicycle because of the shorter wheelbase and much lower masses involved.
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Did you watch the video of the no BS bike.
I believe it clearly demonstrates that you can't really initiate a turn (for all practical purposes) with JUST a lean.
That's all I'm saying.
You need an input at the steering head because of the extent of the forces involved in a motorcycle.
Bicycle is a different matter, because you and your weight far outweigh the forces involved (the mass of the bike and generally any speed/momentum/centripetal force)... of course, even then I'm not sure, it's been too many years since I rode a bicycle without hands as a kid, maybe my leaning turned the steering head even then.
Yeah Kev seen that video and I agree with what you are saying.
When I say lean with hands off though I do get a turn of sorts though, its a ridiculously wide turn and not much use for anything. Simply that anecdotally that shifting weight does have an effect albeit marginal.
As a practical technique its useless.
As others have already stated my understanding is the countersteer initiates the turn, the narrower wheel radius when leaned in is what actually makes the bike turn.
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Bicycle is a different matter, because you and your weight far outweigh the forces involved (the mass of the bike and generally any speed/momentum/centripetal force)... of course, even then I'm not sure, it's been too many years since I rode a bicycle without hands as a kid, maybe my leaning turned the steering head even then.
Even on a bicycle, though you can initiate a turn with body weight, it's also "not much use for anything." I far as I know, countersteering isn't just something you do in an emergency, it's the way we normally start a turn, on a motorcycle or bicycle.
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:thumb:
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I can't wait until we talk about "trail braking".
:shocked:
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Absolutely. Once flicked into the turn, the machine is stable, and doesn't need or want you messing with it.. EXCEPT you are now on the side of the tire, and it is essentially smaller in diameter at the contact patch, so it needs to be rotating faster. Adding throttle all the way through the turn stabilizes the bike and makes for faster exit speeds..
Chuck, do you think that the small, if any, change in diameter is significant? I can't say I've ever noticed it. Of course, if you are doing something other than just cruising along then having a bit of power on in a curve is a good thing anyway.
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Chuck, do you think that the small, if any, change in diameter is significant? I can't say I've ever noticed it. Of course, if you are doing something other than just cruising along then having a bit of power on in a curve is a good thing anyway.
You don`t notice anything because the statement is not true.
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You don`t notice anything because the statement is not true.
And what makes you say that? When you are on the side of the tire, the effective diameter is smaller.
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Resisted saying this long enough, about to bust! :laugh:
After discussing this with my kid, shortly after a call from Dusty, he put a zip tie on the handlebars between the clamps extending the end straight back. Then he put a piece of marked masking tape across his tank to form a scale. This was on his Street Triple.
With his helmet cam running, he recorded the results. Countersteering starting the turns, then, and hard to tell, but looks like turning into the turn to maintain at slow 30 MPH speed turns, neutral to more very slight countersteering to maintain higher speed 60 MPH sweepers. Body steering, no doubt about it when he leaned hard with hands off the bars at 60 MPH, as the bike SLIGHTLY fell over into the turn the bars turned away from the direction of the lean, which means he initiated a countersteering turn with his body weight shift.
I'll post the video, or link, when he gets around to posting it on his blog.
For those with a GoPro, or such, try it yourself and compare results. I'd love to see more videos of what happens on other bikes with different geometries (rake, trail, wheelbase, tire width, CG...)
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With his helmet cam running, he recorded the results. Countersteering starting the turns, then, and hard to tell, but looks like turning into the turn to maintain at slow 30 MPH speed turns, neutral to more very slight countersteering to maintain higher speed 60 MPH sweepers. Body steering, no doubt about it when he leaned hard with hands off the bars at 60 MPH, as the bike SLIGHTLY fell over into the turn the bars turned away from the direction of the lean, which means he initiated a countersteering turn with his body weight shift.
He was already in the turn after countersteering was initiated. Have him try the same thing to initiate a turn, body weight shift doesn`t work
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Countersteering starting the turns
That's the deal, it's how we all start turns. You can't stay with it, though! the countersteer moves the bike out from under its center of gravity, for the lean. You can't keep that up for long, or the bike will keep moving out from under its center of gravity until it's sliding along on its side. The tire contact patch goes where you point it, not the bike's center of gravity.
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Semantics, means hard to describe. :wink:
Slow motion appears the counter steering is not turning the bike, only making it lean. Same with hands off. The sudden weight shift caused the bars to go slightly opposite, with a little lean, then back immediately to straight. No real direction change. In the middle of all the turns, the bars were center to pointing in the direction of the turn.
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as the bike SLIGHTLY fell over into the turn the bars turned away from the direction of the lean
Yes. The mass of bike to overcome the forward inertia far exceeded what the human input provided. The front end was attempting to maintain the balance of the straight and level before the human input.
Trail Braking is a topic that is showing up in classroom discussions. Oil and tire threads used to be the hotties.
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There's got to be an Ivy League Dr. of Physics that can help counter steer us in an acceptable direction. I'd like to see what a little official science smells like. . . .at least that's how I'm leaning.
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And what makes you say that? When you are on the side of the tire, the effective diameter is smaller.
Agreed.
The thing is, I would posit that given the width of the wheel etc that the change in diameter is very small indeed and I have a big doubt that it has any effect on steering. Nor can I think just now of any reason why it should.
The effect of that change of diameter would seem to me to be either that the wheel speeds up by a small amount or that the bike slows by a small amount or both.
That would make sense because in "physics speak" a turn or change of direction is an "acceleration" (in a given direction) and requires energy which would be sapped from the bike speed. (or provided by more throttle)
While I don't think the diameter change has any relevance to steering practices I remain open to the possibility. Unconvinced as yet though.
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I had a friend who achieved 45mph on his racy treddly coming down Dyers Pass road (Port Hills Christchurch) once. He got a speeding ticket for it and was quite proud of it. I thought he was nuts.
When my ex neighbour and I would go for a training ride on the treadlies over the Port Hills he would blast me in to the weeds on the way up. HOWEVER, when it came to going DOWN I would clock up to 75 kmh. I would then wait for him at the bottom. He would then tell me I was crazy etc. and we would then ride off in to the sunset.
When it comes to countersteering, I have no idea whether I do it or not. Used to do a lot of mountain biking so probably do. On the Breva, I nod my head and around it goes. :grin: :thumb:
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There's got to be an Ivy League Dr. of Physics that can help counter steer us in an acceptable direction. I'd like to see what a little official science smells like. . . .at least that's how I'm leaning.
Don't know about official science. I do find this topic somewhat funny though. We all ride motorcycles and are discussing how to correctly steer them. Put too much thought into this and you might get distracted and find yourself in a ditch :evil:.
I've logged about 250,000 miles on motorcycles the last 30 years and never really put that much thought into it. Even when I was an MSF instructor running a Honda CB650 to death.
All I know is...Want to go to the right?...Push the right handlebar grip. In a steep turn?...push harder and turn that right handlebar thingy :grin:
Seems like on Guzzi though that I don't even have to push. I just "think" about the corner and the bike makes it happen :thumb:
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I think were we to get a physics prof on the case we would be inundated with complex mathematical proofs. Still, it might be interesting to do so.
Yes, we all ride a bikes some without doubt better than others and for 'rider instruction' purposes "push right to turn right" is all the instruction that is really needed.
I do have to say though that after some years of riding I for one needed the rationale to understand this and to consider trying it. Of course at that point no one had ever said "push right to turn right" to me.
I think that consciously and continuously practicing reverse steering until it became automatic did improve my riding. It certainly prevented any repeat of my pole hitting incident (that happened on a straight dry road at 35mph with no other traffic around) and made things more sure, precise and relaxed for me.
At the end of the day I like physics. It was my favourite subject at school and uni, and I for one find the whole topic fascinating. (as you might have guessed. :laugh:)
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Don't know about official science. I do find this topic somewhat funny though. We all ride motorcycles and are discussing how to correctly steer them. Put too much thought into this and you might get distracted and find yourself in a ditch :evil:.
Seems like on Guzzi though that I don't even have to push. I just "think" about the corner and the bike makes it happen :thumb:
I don't disagree. This topic intrigues me for the sport of the dialogue. While the science is repeating its' laws behind the scenes, our brains are putting the same inputs into/onto the machine. I believe the differences between what we each percieve is happening exists in the small patch of grey between our ears.
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Don't know about official science. I do find this topic somewhat funny though. We all ride motorcycles and are discussing how to correctly steer them. Put too much thought into this and you might get distracted and find yourself in a ditch :evil:.
I've logged about 250,000 miles on motorcycles the last 30 years and never really put that much thought into it. Even when I was an MSF instructor running a Honda CB650 to death.
All I know is...Want to go to the right?...Push the right handlebar grip. In a steep turn?...push harder and turn that right handlebar thingy :grin:
Seems like on Guzzi though that I don't even have to push. I just "think" about the corner and the bike makes it happen :thumb:
:thumb:
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The thing is, I would posit that given the width of the wheel etc that the change in diameter is very small indeed and I have a big doubt that it has any effect on steering. Nor can I think just now of any reason why it should.
The effect of that change of diameter would seem to me to be either that the wheel speeds up by a small amount or that the bike slows by a small amount or both.
That would make sense because in "physics speak" a turn or change of direction is an "acceleration" (in a given direction) and requires energy which would be sapped from the bike speed. (or provided by more throttle)
While I don't think the diameter change has any relevance to steering practices I remain open to the possibility. Unconvinced as yet though.
I don't think anyone's going to try to convince you otherwise - I think that's all anyone was saying, is that the throttle may need to go up a hair to keep constant speed. Not that it has anything to do with steering per se, no one's saying that here anyway. I take no position. I think there could be other reasons why you might need more throttle, besides wheel diameter - or not need more throttle. For my purposes, I need whatever throttle it takes to keep from falling over, and it's no use trying to tell me otherwise.
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Don't know about official science. I do find this topic somewhat funny though. We all ride motorcycles and are discussing how to correctly steer them. Put too much thought into this and you might get distracted and find yourself in a ditch :evil:.
I've logged about 250,000 miles on motorcycles the last 30 years and never really put that much thought into it. Even when I was an MSF instructor running a Honda CB650 to death.
All I know is...Want to go to the right?...Push the right handlebar grip. In a steep turn?...push harder and turn that right handlebar thingy :grin:
Seems like on Guzzi though that I don't even have to push. I just "think" about the corner and the bike makes it happen :thumb:
Exactly! Need to close up the turn radius line or overcooked a turn push even harder!
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Just saw this moderately entertaining 4 minute video about bicycle self-stability: How do bikes stay up? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZAc5t2lkvo)
They touch on countersteering without using the word, just assuming that you'll understand that the bike needs to turn in to stay up. The question is why it does it, on its own.
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This is just for my friends, but as mentioned on the humour laden post where the tosser loses his bike on the ice. The bike is in a constant state of counter steering as can be seen by the initial flick of the 'bars to the left (right bar forward) and then "flops" into a right hand turn. (Cue hilarious uncontrollable laughter)...
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Hey, didn't your high school driving instructor always tell you "steer into the skid!"? :grin:
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Hey, didn't your high school driving instructor always tell you "steer into the skid!"? :grin:
I failed high school, that's why I got into the IT industry !
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Spend a little time viewing Moto GP low side crashed on U tube... The bike enters the turn with the counter steering front wheel turned slightly away from the turn...Just before the rider loses control the front wheel turns slightly into the turn and then lowsides....
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Don't forget you or riding on three gyro's two on vertical axis and one in the transverse. That said one of them you control with pressure (Handel bar) the gyro effect takes effect at 90 deg. in the direction of rotation. So if you try to tilt it turn and if you try to turn it tiles simply ha. Now the next gyro's or controlled by speed( crank, and rear wheel) speed of rotation give redidage or stability. You know sitting at a stop lite rev. Your engein up to stay up long enouft for the lite to change. Rudy
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How about another counter steering suggestion, for you people that or thing about trying it( like winning racer do). When your or staring into the turn and pushing that inside bar, try pulling up on it & pushing down on the out side bar. To do this you will need to push down on the inside foot peg. Now thing happier in that turn that will make you smile, but be careful, al little bit pressure will go a long way. Now your or putting to different pressure on your front gyro,turning & tilting on the axis.Rudy
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Interesting read.
http://superbikeschool.com/about-us/machinery/no-b-s-machine/
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Haven't we plowed this field before ?
Dusty
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Just like farms we just keep replowing old fields, that one reason I like guzzi rally. Rudy
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Haven't we plowed this field before ?
Dusty
No Dusty, this is a new one as suggested by Two Wings. Just for the amusement of our good friends you see...
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How about another counter steering suggestion, for you people that or thing about trying it( like winning racer do). When your or staring into the turn and pushing that inside bar, try pulling up on it & pushing down on the out side bar. To do this you will need to push down on the inside foot peg. Now thing happier in that turn that will make you smile, but be careful, al little bit pressure will go a long way. Now your or putting to different pressure on your front gyro,turning & tilting on the axis.Rudy
Just a point Rudy. Not just winning racers do the counter steering thing.EVERYBODY DOES ! Just not everybody knows it. The bike does not have static stability in the rolling plane (as opposed to pitch and yaw) the point of support must be re positioned constantly in the dynamic sense under the centre of mass. Isaac Newton said so and we all must comply.
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Haven't we plowed this field before ?
Dusty
.....new season....
kjf
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Nesssquatchie approves!
(http://cdn2.holytaco.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/2521.jpg)
Todd.
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Nesssquatchie approves!
(http://cdn2.holytaco.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/2521.jpg)
Todd.
??????
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And so does Riding Bull.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/iABnUa/fake_indian.jpg) (http://ibb.co/iABnUa)
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Interesting read.
http://superbikeschool.com/about-us/machinery/no-b-s-machine/
What a neat little article. Thanks for the link!
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I don't normally post on this sort of stuff as it just usually just fuels a lot of conjecture & opinion often with little fact
However I stumbled on this video by accident and thought it explained the physics quite well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgUOOwnZcDU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgUOOwnZcDU)
Yes I've watched all the Keith Code stuff too, many times
John
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Great little video! Explains it in a very simple way.
I first learned about counter steering in the 70s after I'd already been riding ten years. Saved my bacon more than once lane splitting! When you need to change direction suddenly there's no better way (is there any other?)
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I'm pretty sure we had a mega threadfest on this subject a couple years ago... :boxing:
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I'm pretty sure we had a mega threadfest on this subject a couple years ago... :boxing:
More than one , worse than an oil thread :laugh:
Good video .
Dusty
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Did someone say oil thread?
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Maybe we could add "weighting the pegs" as well? :drool:
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More than one , worse than an oil thread :laugh:
Good video .
Dusty
How can this even compare to an oil thread. You either ride a bike correctly (counter steering) or you don't. Nothing left for opinion.
I learned to counter steer in the early 60s on my bicycles. I just didn't know there was a name for it. :cool:
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How can this even compare to an oil thread. You either ride a bike correctly (counter steering) or you don't. Nothing left for opinion.
I learned to counter steer in the early 60s on my bicycles. I just didn't know there was a name for it. :cool:
Obviously you weren't here during the last countersteering megathreadfest .
Dusty
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Could we merge them and have a thread about countersteering around oil patches and which oil is slipperier ?
(Slipperyer, Slipperieiyer, Slippier......?.)
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Could we merge them and have a thread about countersteering around oil patches and which oil is slipperier ?
(Slipperyer, Slipperieiyer, Slippier......?.)
No .
Dusty
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How can this even compare to an oil thread. You either ride a bike correctly (counter steering) or you don't. Nothing left for opinion.
I learned to counter steer in the early 60s on my bicycles. I just didn't know there was a name for it. :cool:
Trust me, there are those that have ridden a LONG time, and still refuse to understand it. As far as they are concerned, you only lean, not counter steer. When I was teaching the MSF classes, these same 'experienced' riders failed when they were unable to pass the part of the test where you swerve.
Duh.
Toss in a few comments from those with sidecars to keep the thread alive, and it can be like an oil thread.
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I know you have to counter steer a bike above a certain speed and having watched OJs video understand the physics a bit more.
However I'm highly likely to give the bars a shove on a ride just so that I can marvel at the way the bike reacts. :cool: :cool:
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I know you have to counter steer a bike above a certain speed and having watched OJs video understand the physics a bit more.
However I'm highly likely to give the bars a shove on a ride just so that I can marvel at the way the bike reacts. :cool: :cool:
You countersteer at every speed Tris.
The force required is a function of velocity, slow speed low force.
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How can this even compare to an oil thread. You either ride a bike correctly (counter steering) or you don't. Nothing left for opinion.
I learned to counter steer in the early 60s on my bicycles. I just didn't know there was a name for it. :cool:
Damn right.
Anyone reading this thread is not dead, so is therefore riding correctly.
We are all doing it, but we understand it to a different degree.
Some are 100% across the concept and some are clueless.
Most of us are somewhere in between.
For me it’s not how well you understand it, I just cringe when someone says they “decided” to use the technique.
No...
They “decided” to try to understand it a bit better.
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Well said Huzo.
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You countersteer at every speed Tris.
The force required is a function of velocity, slow speed low force.
Actually, I think at slow speeds (below 5 or 10mph) you steer normally.
So what's the trick for steering through oil?
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We all do it intuitavely but don't recognize were doin' it.
Watch this and see.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljywO-B_yew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljywO-B_yew)
Wirespokes is right.
Paul B :boozing:
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Wirespokes is right.
Yep. I know an old rider that still thinks you "lean into a turn" though..
I think I'll run out and change my oil. Which one is best for the Aero engine? :evil: :smiley:
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Actually, I think at slow speeds (below 5 or 10mph) you steer normally.
So what's the trick for steering through oil?
”Normally..?”
Trick for steering through oil ?
Top up your health cover..
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We all do it intuitavely but don't recognize were doin' it.
Watch this and see.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljywO-B_yew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljywO-B_yew)
Wirespokes is right.
Paul B :boozing:
The laws of Physics don’t sign off and go on vacation above or below 10 mph...
The effect at low speeds is indescirnable but will still be the force at work.
The time between the initial countersteer input and commencement of turn is very small @ low speeds.
If you think about it the point of view about no countersteering at low speeds must be nonsensical, because were it true, there would be an alteration of technique required when transiting 10 mph.
Ask a Physicist and we can all listen intently.
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Actually, I think at slow speeds (below 5 or 10mph) you steer normally.
So what's the trick for steering through oil?
Get on your pushbike at 5 mph and reach out with your right finger tip, PUSH on the’bar with your right finger TIP, and you will turn right.
At any speed.
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I find if if I have enough quality corn oil in my rear end i can do amazing angels. Just saying.
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The laws of Physics don’t sign off and go on vacation above or below 10 mph...
The effect at low speeds is indescirnable but will still be the force at work.
The time between the initial countersteer input and commencement of turn is very small @ low speeds.
If you think about it the point of view about no countersteering at low speeds must be nonsensical, because were it true, there would be an alteration of technique required when transiting 10 mph.
Ask a Physicist and we can all listen intently.
Agreed.
Try to tell people they can only put there left foot down when they come to a stop and they quickly learn that counter steering happens at less than 1 mph. Push on the left grip as you come to a stop and the weight of the bike will always fall to the left so you can balance it with your left foot.
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It's been eluded to here. Keep it simple. I started using the term PUSH steering explaining it especially to novices. Shazzam!! I can see the light come on in their eyes & get positive feedback later. The term counter steering snags in the mind of some.
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Y'all stop! Next time I ride a curvy road I'll start trying to analyze these theories and bust my ARSE😂
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You countersteer at every speed Tris.
The force required is a function of velocity, slow speed low force.
Turning into my driveway at a slow speed, 7 -10 mph, I am definitely turning the bars into the turn just like a three wheeler.
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Turning into my driveway at a slow speed, 7 -10 mph, I am definitely turning the bars into the turn just like a three wheeler.
No, you are initiating the turn with countersteering, then the wheel turns in to make the turn.
The only time you aren't countersteering is when you are duck walking the bike or keeping it upright like you might on a gravel road where you put your weight on the outside peg and lean your body into the turn to counterbalance it.
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Turning into my driveway at a slow speed, 7 -10 mph, I am definitely turning the bars into the turn just like a three wheeler.
The next time you want to do that, attempt it at 1 mph. push on the left grip while pulling on the right grip like you would do if you are turning the bars like a three wheeler and watch what happens. The bike will go to the left.
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Below a certain speed you are actually steering the bike instead of leaning , thus countersteering doesn't come into play . Think about it , when you are moving a bike around in the garage you steer it in the desired direction of travel .
I forget now where the article was published , or the exact details , but above a certain speed (300 MPH maybe) , car steering reverses , then above a certain speed (400 MPH ?) it returns to normal . Explain that , go ahead , we'll wait patiently :laugh:
Dusty
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How can this even compare to an oil thread. You either ride a bike correctly (counter steering) or you don't. Nothing left for opinion.
I learned to counter steer in the early 60s on my bicycles. I just didn't know there was a name for it. :cool:
You too? So did I. I owned a Raleigh English bike that had a three position fork lock. Being a curious kid, I felt sure I could lock the forks in the straight forward position and ride the bike in a straight line. Wrong! Big crash. Gotta have that handlebar input!
I think I first learned how a bicycle required counter steering to negotiate a turn when I would return from the grocery store holding a large bag of groceries under one arm, while steering with the other. One learns pretty quickly how a bike steers when you only have one arm to push and pull the handlebar.
I took one of Reg Pridmore's courses (the safe street riding one) and there was a lot of emphasis on weight shifting. At the time I thought 'yes, it may help, but ....... ) Then (who was it?) that build the bike with handlebars bolted firmly to the frame so they wouldn't turn at all. No matter how hard a rider weight shifted on this bike, it wouldn't change line.
Bob
EDIT: Dusty .... Agreed .... there is a very low speed where turning the handlebar right (tricycle steering) causes the bike to turn to the right. However, there is a crossover speed where counter steering takes over.
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I think the simplest expression of the concept I have heard is " Push right, lean right, go right. Push left, lean left, go left. "
I think the reason a rider who doesn't acknowledge the existence of counter steering but claims they steer by simply leaning does so because as they drop their shoulder say to the right this causes the right arm to extend forward slightly pushing the right grip forward - push right, lean right, go right.
To my understanding one of the differences at very low speeds is that the wheels do not turn quickly enough to generate any significant gyroscopic force which is part of the puzzle.
Glenn
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I took one of Reg Pridmore's courses (the safe street riding one) and there was a lot of emphasis on weight shifting. At the time I thought 'yes, it may help, but ....... ) Then (who was it?) that build the bike with handlebars bolted firmly to the frame so they wouldn't turn at all. No matter how hard a rider weight shifted on this bike, it wouldn't change line.
Kieth Code built the bike. The "no BS bike" was designed with a second set handle bars mounted to the frame. The BS stood for body steering. http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/nobsbike.aspx
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Turning into my driveway at a slow speed, 7 -10 mph, I am definitely turning the bars into the turn just like a three wheeler.
Yes, but not initially.
It doesn’t matter how often you say it.
Have a nice day.
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Yes, but not initially.
It doesn’t matter how often you say it.
Have a nice day.
Watch any Motor Officer competition and you will quickly see that is wrong . At slow speeds you steer into the turn .
Dusty
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No you didn't, Yes I did, no you didn't, Yes I did................ ..................W asn't there a Monty Python sketch about this?? :evil:
Paul B :boozing:
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No you didn't, Yes I did, no you didn't, Yes I did................ ..................W asn't there a Monty Python sketch about this?? :evil:
Paul B :boozing:
No there wasn't!!
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Watch any Motor Officer competition and you will quickly see that that is wrong . At slow speeds you steer into the turn .
Dusty
This!
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This is why it’s all going to end badly.
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On my very first ride with my first motorcycle on the very first curve at speed I figured out counter steering thankfully before the motorcycle went off the curve. Later the realization hit that I had been counter steering for years on my bicycle and didn’t realize it.
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Ok...everyone, out of the pool! 5 minute break!
Counter Steelers on the left, Leaners on the right!!
Everyone...start your engines...and begin TURNING!!
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Turning into my driveway at a slow speed, 7 -10 mph, I am definitely turning the bars into the turn just like a three wheeler.
The reason for that is below a very low speed, I would judge 5 mph or slower versus 7-10 mph, centrifugal force is not a major player. However, when you turn the steering in a certain direction, geometric trail moves the contact patch away from the centerline of bike in the opposite direction. The bike then falls into the turn in the direction the bars are turned. Above the very low transition speed where centrifugal force starts to act, the effect of trail in this regard is negligible and counter steering works.
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :violent1: :popcorn:
Below a certain speed you are actually steering the bike instead of leaning , thus countersteering doesn't come into play . Think about it , when you are moving a bike around in the garage you steer it in the desired direction of travel .
Good point!
I forget now where the article was published , or the exact details , but above a certain speed (300 MPH maybe) , car steering reverses , then above a certain speed (400 MPH ?) it returns to normal . Explain that , go ahead , we'll wait patiently :laugh:
Dusty
I never noticed that effect - maybe I was holding on too tight for dear life. Have to pay more attention next time!
The reason for that is below a very low speed, I would judge 5 mph or slower versus 7-10 mph, centrifugal force is not a major player. However, when you turn the steering in a certain direction, geometric trail moves the contact patch away from the centerline of bike in the opposite direction. The bike then falls into the turn in the direction the bars are turned. Above the very low transition speed where centrifugal force starts to act, the effect of trail in this regard is negligible and counter steering works.
I think you're right - centrifugal force is the key player here.
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I think it’s become less about who is right and more about who do you want to upset the least..
When someone with a solid explanation based on physics enters the argument, it’ll be time to sit up again and take notice.
At the moment, the core WG respondents remind me of the first divisions of a single called organism.
A fair bit of jostling for sides before hostilities commence.
Most people have figured out by now where the strength lies. I can’t reach the dump button from my side..
Bugger..!
BTW
If initiating a turn a very low speed requires no countersteer input as popular opinion suggests, how is the lean inwards in the direction of the turn generated, to counteract the centrifugal force ?
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I love the stories where someone says "I was counter steering as hard as I could around the turn" Still haven't figured out how you counter steer the full corner :shocked:
It clicked in my head when "as at least one mentions above" you push the arm/shoulder/hand on the side you want to turn as you lean. Until then I couldn't get my head around it. Only, like several also mention, that I was already doing it! But once you understand it, you can refine it.
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I love the stories where someone says "I was counter steering as hard as I could around the turn" Still haven't figured out how you counter steer the full corner :shocked:
It clicked in my head when "as at least one mentions above" you push the arm/shoulder/hand on the side you want to turn as you lean. Until then I couldn't get my head around it. Only, like several also mention, that I was already doing it! But once you understand it, you can refine it.
You only need to apply a force to deviate a mass from it’s direction of travel.
Once the force is removed it will tend to remain in that plane of motion. A bloke in Cambridge said so while eating an apple.
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This!
There is no one one these pages that knows more about balance of forces in a turn than you.
You know that there has to be a component of bank to keep the ball in the middle. In a left turn, how is that left bank initiated in an a/c...?
And a bike...?
In both cases once the turn is properly established the forces are in balance.
How would you get the bike to lean to the left initially ?
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Actually centrifugal force has very little to do with what makes the bike lean, its the Gyroscopic forces that do that.
The spinning wheel is like a gyro, and at lower rpm the forces are very small but are proportional to rpm and become quite strong.
Turning a spinning gyro (w/handlebars) will cause it to tilt resulting in the lean. It will tilt around a point 90 degrees in the direction of the spin opposite to direction of the turning force applied.
:-)
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Actually centrifugal force has very little to do with what makes the bike lean, its the Gyroscopic forces that do that.
The spinning wheel is like a gyro, and at lower rpm the forces are very small but are proportional to rpm and become quite strong.
Turning a spinning gyro (w/handlebars) will cause it to tilt resulting in the lean. It will tilt 90 degrees in the direction of the spin opposite to the turning force applied.
:-)
Yes Kirby.
At no stage did I suggest that centrifugal force causes the lean. No one can find a quote where I intimated that.
We both know that it is the resolution of the vectors of gravity (vertical) and centrifugal (horizontal), that resolve to produce a resultant down through the contact patch.
Or if we didn’t, we do now.
My point was (and still is)..
If you are entering a left turn at very low speed, there is still an angle of lean that the bike must achieve to give a horizontal vector equal and opposite to that supplied by centrifugal force.
This is apparently not in dispute.
But my question (still) goes like this.
For a LEFT turn, how is the angle of bank to the left, initiated ?
That is a 14 word sentence that, if answered will put one side or other back in their place.
What you state regarding gyro’s is not in dispute, but it does not address the above question. If it’s possible to confine ourselves to this issue, can I be informed beyond my current level of understanding.
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In most AC it would be the ailerons or the rudder...causing to AC to bank, which that alone would not result in a turn without using the elevator (pitch control). Your operating in 3 dimensions no? Motos do not.
Gyroscopic forces cause the moto to lean (bank?) and due to the dynamics of a single track vehicle leaning will cause the machine to turn. However that is only at speeds of 10mph or so normally. Under that you Steer the moto with the bars.
And your point ?, as I can see no connection to a moto's turnings physics and an aircraft...
:-)
Yes some of your point is well made.
My point regarding the a/c is that although I understand the primary and secondary effects of the controls, I was trying not to stray into other areas that do not translate seamlessly.
Suffice to say, that it is the balance of forces in both cases that are to achieve equilibrium for a steady state situation.
I entered that topic because I knew that I would not have to thrash out some trifling little technicality that would steer us away from my question.
We both know that the lean angle needs to be present to counteract the force trying to throw the bike towards the outside of the turn.
No one will address this question in isolation, so mercifully for the reader I’ll make this my last attempt without sounding too sarcastic.
For a left hand turn, how is the bank angle of the bike initially achieved ?
Are you saying that turning the bars left, will result in a left lean at low speeds ?
If you are, then how do you account for the fact that reaching out with your single finger and pushing on the right bar on your pushbike at low speeds, will result in @ RIGHT turn.
Pushing on the right bar, is turning the handles to the left.
Countersteering at work I suggest.
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I'm with Chad, I knew I shoudln't have posted this even if I did think it informative :boxing:
Kirby is the member I think that has it pinned down and IMHO it's nearly all Gyroscopic, with a bit of Centripital force thrown in and is proportional to speed.
At low speeds I have my own opinions but it's staying that way.
Anyways this post is primarily to apologize to Dusty and Rocker :embarrassed:
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[quote author=Pizza Guzzi link=topic=100674.msg1591608#msg1591608 date=1556065530
I think the reason a rider who doesn't acknowledge the existence of counter steering but claims they steer by simply leaning does so because as they drop their shoulder say to the right this causes the right arm to extend forward slightly pushing the right grip forward - push right, lean right, go right.
[/quote]
This was me :grin: used to turn my body a little as I set up for corners. I’d read about countersteering but had never tried (apart from the evasive manoeuvre), never noticed even when thinking of it.
After time off the bike with a knee injury I just couldn’t ride my favourite road at the same pace - everything felt stiff & I couldn’t put my finger on it...
One day I tried consciously counter steering & the bike felt great - it wasn’t until then that the coin dropped!
So those that say it’s not so can claim to not consciously do it - as was said, the physics is quite clear. :popcorn:
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It is quite simple if you try to test it. We did it at our last ADAC curve training because the question surfaced. You are counter steering all the time - except when you are very slow. Then you steer the bike into the turn directly. Just try it. Roll along in a pedestrian´s pace and steer into a turn. Try to observe all the actions you normally execute automatically. Then try the same at "normal" speeds. This is what convinced me that counter steering does exist and that I don´t steer the bike by leaning into the curve. But not when you are slow. Kirby did hint to the correct explanation.
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Wow, two pages in 24 hours or less.....
Someone posted he had been doing this in a bicycle for years and just didn't realize there was a name for it.
It's really quite simple. Next time you're riding down a decent piece of road without distractions, say 60 miles per hour in a straight line, relax the grip on the bars. In fact take your left hand off the grip completely. Now, you're traveling along relaxed and happy. Take your index finger and push on the left grip. Just a little, you don't need to go nuts right away. Remember, you're pushing the left handlebar forward, in effect trying to turn the bars to the right.
Come back and tell us what the bike does. :popcorn:
John Henry
edit: You beat me to it Fossil :bow:
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Watch this short video....Steering into the turn is part of a slow speed turn. Is the rider counter steering before turning into the turn? Is it too subtle to see?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SxLkRNpoRw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SxLkRNpoRw)
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Centrifugal force increases as speed in the turn increases. Therefore does it make sense that an extremely slow turn would have very little centrifugal force to deal with? If so, the need for lean would be decreased, which is what counter steering accomplishes.
And in a turn with oil, steer with the throttle! :evil:
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Watch any Motor Officer competition and you will quickly see that is wrong . At slow speeds you steer into the turn .
Dusty
The only way you can do that is if you keep the bike vertical and they don't. You always initiate the turn by countersteering. Once the bike drops into the turn, then the wheel follows the turn.
If you are going along at any speed including crawling along and you try and turn the handlebars to the left thinking you are going to go left you will find yourself laying on the ground on your right side.
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The only way you can do that is if you keep the bike vertical and they don't. You always initiate the turn by countersteering. Once the bike drops into the turn, then the wheel follows the turn.
If you are going along at any speed including crawling along and you try and turn the handlebars to the left thinking you are going to go left you will find yourself laying on the ground on your right side.
Watch the short video in my #53 post and tell me the rider isn't leaning the bike into the turn and steering into the turn at the same time..
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Watch the short video in my #53 post and tell me the rider isn't leaning the bike into the turn and steering into the turn at the same time..
About 2:40ish coming from middle sized to large you see the countersteer on transition - slight jostle on the bars.
The small input needed would be hard for an external observer to see - for me it used to be a slight pressure on the bar.
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About 2:40ish coming from middle sized to large you see the countersteer on transition - slight jostle on the bars.
The small input needed would be hard for an external observer to see - for me it used to be a slight pressure on the bar.
The main point is the rider is maintaining the turn by steering and leaning into the turn...This is my point and it's something that does not happen at higher speeds when countersteering opposite the turn alone maintains the arc of the bike into the turn...
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If initiating a turn a very low speed requires no countersteer input as popular opinion suggests, how is the lean inwards in the direction of the turn generated, to counteract the centrifugal force ?
I explained that in my post above - the front wheel contact patch moves sideways due to trail when the handlebars are turned. Gravity acting straight downward then leans the bike from the vertical. This only dominates at very low speeds.
Re gyroscopic forces, they exist but if you build a bicycle with skis instead of wheels it steers and balances exactly the same way at speed, by countersteering and centrifugal force: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=phT4fVnCJ0U
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The only way you can do that is if you keep the bike vertical and they don't. You always initiate the turn by countersteering. Once the bike drops into the turn, then the wheel follows the turn.
If you are going along at any speed including crawling along and you try and turn the handlebars to the left thinking you are going to go left you will find yourself laying on the ground on your right side.
Well allrighty then...!!!
That will do nicely.
A succinct and accurate explanation.
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The only way you can do that is if you keep the bike vertical and they don't. You always initiate the turn by countersteering. Once the bike drops into the turn, then the wheel follows the turn.
If you are going along at any speed including crawling along and you try and turn the handlebars to the left thinking you are going to go left you will find yourself laying on the ground on your right side.
:bike-037: :thumb:
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I think it’s become less about who is right and more about who do you want to upset the least..
When someone with a solid explanation based on physics enters the argument, it’ll be time to sit up again and take notice.
At the moment, the core WG respondents remind me of the first divisions of a single called organism.
A fair bit of jostling for sides before hostilities commence.
Most people have figured out by now where the strength lies. I can’t reach the dump button from my side..
Bugger..!
BTW
If initiating a turn a very low speed requires no countersteer input as popular opinion suggests, how is the lean inwards in the direction of the turn generated, to counteract the centrifugal force ?
You mean like Kirby ?
No one is arguing counter steering , it might be good to actually read what some are saying , fair enough >
Dusty
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Well allrighty then...!!!
That will do nicely.
A succinct and accurate explanation.
Except isn't , sorry Huzo , pay attention to what Kirby is saying .
Dusty
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You mean like Kirby ?
No one is arguing counter steering , it might be good to actually read what some are saying , fair enough >
Dusty
Just be nice Dusty and no need to answer my PM.
You just did.
I have read every word of each person’s post and agree with some people completely, some a little bit and some not at all.
The ones that say they steer directly into a turn at very low speeds ARE disputing the countersteering argument and it is the only aspect I fundamentally disagree with. There are a myriad of views expressed here (including my own) that could well do with a good going over by someone who has a sound knowlege of Physics, not a bunch of crusty old riders who have digested a lifetime of experiences and come up with a sometimes flawed set of beliefs which are offered up as truths.
I was thinking of admitting that I’m no different, but I may be worse than most on this.
We all love Kirby and I place a hell of a lot of faith in his take on things and have been put back in my place on one occasion by him when spruiking on a topic that I had become a little vague on, so no need to sing his praises to me, I’m aware of his credentials..
I’ve obviously been given more than a fair go on this topic, so I should just leave off.
I have learned a lot though and not all the knowlege gained was about countersteering...
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The ones that say they steer directly into a turn at very low speeds ARE disputing the countersteering argument and it is the only aspect I fundamentally disagree with.
Both the countersteering and trail effects exist simultaneously, but countersteering dominates strongly once you are above walking speed.
When you are riding very slowly you typically turn the bars through large angles, moving the front wheel contact patch to the right and left of the bike's CG which generates a leaning moment in the same direction the bars are turned. That works at low speed. When you are going faster, you can initiate lean by turning the bars only through a small angle in opposition to the intended direction, and centrifugal force leans the bike. The interesting thing is that there is a speed at which the two effects balance and in theory turning the bars has no effect. In practice if that occurs we accelerate slightly to make the bike countersteer.
Gyroscopic forces don't play a huge role except in stabilizing the bike & steering at speed. If you want to design a motorcycle to steer very responsively when at speed, at the cost of stability, you reduce the size of the front wheel to minimize gyroscopic forces and the bike countersteers with less rider effort.
Most of the above is easily demonstrated with a bicycle.
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Actually centrifugal force has very little to do with what makes the bike lean, its the Gyroscopic forces that do that.
The spinning wheel is like a gyro, and at lower rpm the forces are very small but are proportional to rpm and become quite strong.
Turning a spinning gyro (w/handlebars) will cause it to tilt resulting in the lean. It will tilt around a point 90 degrees in the direction of the spin opposite to direction of the turning force applied.
:-)
Ok Dusty.
This is where the problem lies for me.
I did not say that centrifugal force tilts the bike and have never believed it to be so..
So I am not at odds with Kirby on that.
The one and only point that I dispute is that “at low speeds, (say 10 mph and under), countersteering is not used to initiate a turn.”
Now I don’t care if you wheel out a hundred disciples that’ll hold hands and swear I’m full of crap, or Kirby has won the Nobel prize for working Man’s Physics for Dummies..
It is only the above statement in quotes regarding the lack of necessity to countersteer at walking pace that I need educating on, (or someone does).
If you bring any other point into the debate...?
You’re answering the question I didn’t ask..
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Ok Dusty.
This is where the problem lies for me.
I did not say that centrifugal force tilts the bike and have never believed it to be so..
So I am not at odds with Kirby on that.
The one and only point that I dispute is that “at low speeds, (say 10 mph and under), countersteering is not used to initiate a turn.”
Now I don’t care if you wheel out a hundred disciples that’ll hold hands and swear I’m full of crap, or Kirby has won the Nobel prize for working Man’s Physics for Dummies..
It is only the above statement in quotes regarding the lack of necessity to countersteer at walking pace that I need educating on, (or someone does).
If you bring any other point into the debate...?
You’re answering the question I didn’t ask..
Are you saying that at slow speeds, a left turn begins by counter steering right and then the front wheel turns left into the turn as the bike also leans to the left ? This is all very interesting and I'm learning something...
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At slow speeds you may initiate a turn by a slight counter steer and lean a bit but then when crawling thru tight corners/turns you must steer in the direction of travel. The lean in this case is the result of the geometry of the motorbike not countersteer.
Using Utube to validate a point is ...wow.
You can find a utube to prove??!! anything from moon bases to proving the earth is flat or levitation.
Its novelty exercise nothing more...
I don't indulge this activity.
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The You Tube video I liked showed a bike performing slow speed turns with the wheel and the bike leaned into the turn...It may or may not have begun by counter steering ....There seems to be some thin skins here ....I'm going to ride my bicycle in circles and see if I have to counter steer...
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One more point to clarify would be that a bicycle can be balanced while stationary by moving the front wheel contact from left to right with the bars. This is the same trail effect that allows you to steer left, go left at very low speeds. Centrifugal force and counter steering, with or without wheels and gyroscopics as per a ski bike, takes over above walking pace.
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If a bicycle is a valid comparison, here is my experiment...Riding a circa 1960 Hercules 26 inch three speed, I rolled down my driveway at just above walking speed, turned the bars left and the bike went left..I could not detect any counter steering on my part. But maybe it's so conditioned I don't realize I'm doing it? I did it several more times actually jerking the bars left and the bike turned left..I will try it on my old Honda dirt bike shortly in case a bicycle isnt a good example
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Are you saying that at slow speeds, a left turn begins by counter steering right and then the front wheel turns left into the turn as the bike also leans to the left ? This is all very interesting and I'm learning something...
Yes mate I am.
And thank you for asking...(seriously)
As mentioned earlier, Physics does not obey one law at 9 mph and another at 11 mph.
If you tie a piece of cotton to each bar and go for a ride at 10 mph holding the ends of the cotton. Pull lightly on the cotton on the right side at 9 mph and you will turn left.
Do the damn same at 20 mph and you will turn left.
Do the damn same at 50 mph and you will turn left.
Naturally I’m using the example of cotton to exemplify the fact that the only inputs you can make will be subtle ones, or you’ll break the cotton and go arse up...!
This is the only place of consequence where I differ from some of the established luminaries from across the Pacific.
If I am proven incorrect, I will grab reverse without the clutch and back away red faced as I have done before and doubtless will need to again at some point.
If I’m wrong and defininitavely proven so, I’ll defer..
But I’m not..
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At slow speeds you may initiate a turn by a slight counter steer
I don't indulge this activity.
Well..
Bugger me...!
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One more point to clarify would be that a bicycle can be balanced while stationary by moving the front wheel contact from left to right with the bars. This is the same trail effect that allows you to steer left, go left at very low speeds. Centrifugal force and counter steering, with or without wheels and gyroscopics as per a ski bike, takes over above walking pace.
Look.
Of all the extraneous clap trap that’s poured on this debate..?
This is the one that makes slow down a bit and if this is what Kirby’s on about, then maybe the water is a little clearer.
The jury is still out for me, but the verdict is not a slam dunk..
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Right, kids are usually pretty sharp and figure things like that out on their own, even if they don't realize it.
They learn to be cheeky too, but they’re not told to be..
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Here's a short video I just took.....Me on the old Honda...Watch as I go onto the lawn and head back towards the camera and then jerk the bars to the left...Bike turns left...I was trying really hard to avoid counter steering....Could it be I still was pushing the bars ever so slightly to the right but it's not noticeable? The bike flying by is good special effects....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nalPASnb1b4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nalPASnb1b4)
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Here's a short video I just took.....Me on the old Honda...Watch as I go onto the lawn and head back towards the camera and then jerk the bars to the left...Bike turns left...I was trying really hard to avoid counter steering....Could it be I still was pushing the bars ever so slightly to the right but it's not noticeable? The bike flying by is good special effects....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nalPASnb1b4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nalPASnb1b4)
Yep, you can see a quick right before the left turn.
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Ok not bad..
Here’s one. Get two large rubber bands and stretch them from each bar end back to a point right near your nether region.
Secure the close end of the rubber bands near the tank securing bolt.
Put on your helmet.
Ride on grass.
Get the band aids.
Go for a 5 mph ride no hands, the stretch in the rubber bands will let you do this.
The natural COUNTERSTEERING of the bars will be allowed to occur due to the ability of the rubber bands to stretch.
When you are stable, (riding no hands), cut the right one.
Which way do you think the bars will swing ?...(left)
Which way do you think you’ll turn ?...(right)
The remaining left rubber band will be able to stretch as the bars swing right and a right hand turn will result.
Conclusion..?
@ 5 mph a right hand turn is initiated by a right bar push (turning bars to left) and vice versa.. :whip2:
This experiment is designed to apply a force to the bar, independent of any other bodily input, be it conscious or sub conscious.
We all say, “I pushed or pulled on this bar or that” but the rubber band will provide a sudden and unassisted input into the system that will answer the question.
Whatever that says...?
I’ll accept.
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The force of gravity is a constant , the other forces involved in cornering vary with speed .
Try this experiment , at slow speed initiate a turn by counter steering and observe what happens . Yep , if you don't put a foot down you will fall down because the force of gravity will be pushing down . The other forces aren't great enough to overcome the force of gravity at really slow speeds . Go ahead , we will wait patiently :grin:
Dusty
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The force of gravity is a constant , the other forces involved in cornering vary with speed .
Try this experiment , at slow speed initiate a turn by counter steering and observe what happens . Yep , if you don't put a foot down you will fall down because the force of gravity will be pushing down . The other forces aren't great enough to overcome the force of gravity at really slow speeds . Go ahead , we will wait patiently :grin:
Dusty
But please don’t die.
You owe us all an answer... :evil: :popcorn:
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Yep, you can see a quick right before the left turn.
I don't see it on the last sharp turn..And I did yank the bars.....Must be very subtle......Interes ting we both see the same scene and have different points of view
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The force of gravity is a constant , the other forces involved in cornering vary with speed .
Try this experiment , at slow speed initiate a turn by counter steering and observe what happens . Yep , if you don't put a foot down you will fall down because the force of gravity will be pushing down . The other forces aren't great enough to overcome the force of gravity at really slow speeds . Go ahead , we will wait patiently :grin:
Dusty
Now we need to expand in to "counter leaning", when rolling speed drops below walking speed... :evil:
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Now we need to expand in to "counter leaning", when rolling speed drops below walking speed... :evil:
A mod that promotes controversy...
Trouble in paradise..? :wink: :popcorn:
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A mod that promotes controversy...
Trouble in paradise..? :wink: :popcorn:
I've been promoted from "diplomatico di moto" to "agente provocatore"
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I've been promoted from "diplomatico di moto" to "agente provocatore"
We need one of each
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I was reluctant to get involved in this discussion however I am going to venture out into the unknown here. After I offer an explanation based on my experience as a motor officer and having to qualify twice a year on a Precision slow speed course, I will remain silent and possibly learn something.
Counter steering does not apply here. You only apply this technique at speed. If one is making a sharp left turn around a cone you MUST turn the bars to the left as well as leaning the entire bike sharply to the left side. Dragging the floorboards is common in these extreme maneuvers. If there is any way a rider can make a sharp left turn by turning the bars to the right, and visa versa, please send a video executing this maneuver so I can learn a new technique in precision riding.
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I was reluctant to get involved in this discussion however I am going to venture out into the unknown here. After I offer an explanation based on my experience as a motor officer and having to qualify twice a year on a Precision slow speed course, I will remain silent and possibly learn something.
Counter steering does not apply here. You only apply this technique at speed. If one is making a sharp left turn around a cone you MUST turn the bars to the left as well as leaning the entire bike sharply to the left side. Dragging the floorboards is common in these extreme maneuvers. If there is any way a rider can make a sharp left turn by turning the bars to the right, and visa versa, please send a video executing this maneuver so I can learn a new technique in precision riding.
It is amazing to watch a really talented motor officer maneuver a large motorbike thru an obstacle course .
Dusty
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It is amazing to watch a really talented motor officer maneuver a large motorbike thru an obstacle course .
Dusty
I agree Dusty. I still go to the competitions to watch the young guys, some of which are two generations from me, to see if any techniques has changed, they have not. I must admit I can no longer ride at that degree of perfection. One must ride that way all the time to continue riding way.
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I agree Dusty. I still go to the competitions to watch the young guys, some of which are two generations from me, to see if any techniques has changed, they have not. I must admit I can no longer ride at that degree of perfection. One must ride that way all the time to continue riding way.
Motor officers need to have a very particular set of skills that don't come into play much under normal riding conditions . Have had the chance to ride one of the courses set up at the OHP training center at Burns Flat OK , negotiating the course requires a different mind set than normal street riding , very challenging . We have a small contingent of pursuit troopers here that employ Hayabusas , watching those guys toss around a Busa was entertaining . One of those guys lives here in Muskogee , have ridden with him a few times on his regular street bike , the man can ride a motorbike .
Dusty
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Motor officers need to have a very particular set of skills that don't come into play much under normal riding conditions . Have had the chance to ride one of the courses set up at the OHP training center at Burns Flat OK , negotiating the course requires a different mind set than normal street riding , very challenging . We have a small contingent of pursuit troopers here that employ Hayabusas , watching those guys toss around a Busa was entertaining . One of those guys lives here in Muskogee , have ridden with him a few times on his regular street bike , the man can ride a motorbike .
Dusty
That's interesting, about the pursuit bikes, dangerous and interesting. In my day we did pursue on bikes but I think that practice has been discontinued if the past few years. In fact pursuits in general has been stopped except in certain circumstances such as allowing the suspect not to be stopped is more dangerous to the public that the pursuit does. I must admit I as I have gotten older tend to agree with that thought process. Police chases are extremely dangerous to the public for the most part.
Sorry if we got off topic a bit my friend.
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I don't see it on the last sharp turn..And I did yank the bars.....Must be very subtle......Interes ting we both see the same scene and have different points of view
Repeat the experiment. Only this time let go of the bars. Then, avoiding any other input, make the left turn by pressing with an open hand on the left side. It will be hard to avoid other inputs at low speed, like moving on the seat.
Report back what you find.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLzB5oriblk
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Repeat the experiment. Only this time let go of the bars. Then, avoiding any other input, make the left turn by pressing with an open hand on the left side. It will be hard to avoid other inputs at low speed, like moving on the seat.
Report back what you find.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLzB5oriblk
Well, I did as you asked....Rolling at a speed just fast enough to be stable....Pushing with an open hand on the left bar makes the bike do a quick very slight left lean as expected but it turns to the right . It does not want to turn left while I'm doing this, not at all....This old dirt bike with knobby tires may steer a bit different?
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Since we're talking about bicycles here, I'm surprised no one has mentioned it, but don't most people here remember riding their bike as a kid or adult with no hands and once you mastered riding in a straight line at a reasonable speed or faster, you learned how to ride going around a corner with NO hands also. You can gently (not police style competition) get a bike to follow a curve (pedaling or not) w/o any input from the hands at all, now tell me how that translates to counter "steering" without input in the handlebars, rather than leaning and "controlling" the turn using body shifting.
P.D. Riding a unicycle you can easily turn hard corners or gentle corners, and there are no handlebars to "push on" either. It's body lean and input thru the pedals...so I'm guessing you'll say we are counter steering thru the pedals.
By the way, I do agree that the counter steering of push left, go left to initiate the turn is a very easy and fun way to ride when going thru extreme twisties, but for general riding, it doesn't seem to be as conscious a required decision to stay in the right spot on the road, but for sure it's happening intuitively.
:)
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The main point is the rider is maintaining the turn by steering and leaning into the turn...This is my point and it's something that does not happen at higher speeds when countersteering opposite the turn alone maintains the arc of the bike into the turn...
You need to focus on the word "initiate" Countersteering is used to initiate any turn where the bike is leaned over.
Countersteering to maintain the arc is not always the case. On the older bikes you are used to it is probably true. Some bikes are neutral which means you initiate the turn through countersteering and once you are on your line the bike maintains that line without any input from the rider. Some bikes require you to apply pressure the other way to keep the bike from falling too deep into the turn.
Now I see why the first couple posters called this another oil thread. LOL! Please don't quote me again because I am done with this discussion. :)
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Since we're talking about bicycles here, I'm surprised no one has mentioned it, but don't most people here remember riding their bike as a kid or adult with no hands and once you mastered riding in a straight line at a reasonable speed or faster, you learned how to ride going around a corner with NO hands also. You can gently (not police style competition) get a bike to follow a curve (pedaling or not) w/o any input from the hands at all, now tell me how that translates to counter "steering" without input in the handlebars, rather than leaning and "controlling" the turn using body shifting.
P.D. Riding a unicycle you can easily turn hard corners or gentle corners, and there are no handlebars to "push on" either. It's body lean and input thru the pedals...so I'm guessing you'll say we are counter steering thru the pedals.
By the way, I do agree that the counter steering of push left, go left is a very easy and fun way to ride when going thru extreme twisties, but for general riding, it doesn't seem to be as conscious a required decision to stay in the right spot on the road, but for sure it's happening intuitively.
:)
I’m going to start everything with “I think”, because I MAYBE there is more to learn here for me.
Not sure yet.
The push bike is countersteering all the time if you provide no inputs. We have all seen a pushbike or motorbike , continue on alone if a rider falls off.
You will see when the bike is in it’s final throes before it crashes, oscillations in the bars that are increasing in amplitude as the unit departs ever more from it’s stable condition.
I suggest that these oscillations are ever present, just minuscule under normal conditions.
If you lock the bars so movement is impossible, the bike will not go more than a couple of metres.
Remember the old friction dampers on bikes of yore ?
There was a small slot in the friction plate that allowed minute movement of the bars before the friction pads took hold.
This was so that minute oscillatory motion could be allowed under normal operating conditions.
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You need to focus on the word "initiate" Countersteering is used to initiate any turn where the bike is leaned over.
Too late , you’re quoted.
And 100% correct IMO... :thumb:
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Too late , you’re quoted.
And 100% correct IMO... :thumb:
Ah, it's not over till it's over.... In response to what Wayne asked me to do I said the following from actual observation on a motorcycle a few hours ago...
My reply; Well, I did as you asked....Rolling at a speed just fast enough to be stable....Pushing with an open hand on the left bar makes the bike do a quick very slight left lean as expected but it turns to the right . It does not want to turn left while I'm doing this, not at all....This old dirt bike with knobby tires may steer a bit different?
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As long as no one becomes rude, I can’t see a barrier to a prolonged thread.
“How was your day” is a good example.
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The push bike is countersteering all the time if you provide no inputs. We have all seen a pushbike or motorbike , continue on alone if a rider falls off.
Actually, that's not countersteering. What you're talking about here is a normal function of motorcycle steering geometry that steers the wheel the direction the bike's falling towards. It makes minute corrections constantly running down the road. That's why tight steering bearings or a tight steering damper results in the bike wandering - not holding a straight line.
Countersteering is the action of turning the wheel in the opposite direction to the turn.
Just because we don't normally countersteer at slow speeds doesn't mean it can't be done. If you countersteer at slow speed be ready to hit the gas otherwise you'll fall over. It's the best way to make a quick and tight U turn, but you will need to counter-lean! (sit up straight, not leaned with the bike)
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Actually, that's not countersteering. What you're talking about here is a normal function of motorcycle steering geometry that steers the wheel the direction the bike's falling towards. It makes minute corrections constantly running down the road. That's why tight steering bearings or a tight steering damper results in the bike wandering - not holding a straight line.
Countersteering is the action of turning the wheel in the opposite direction to the turn.
Just because we don't normally countersteer at slow speeds doesn't mean it can't be done. If you countersteer at slow speed be ready to hit the gas otherwise you'll fall over. It's the best way to make a quick and tight U turn, but you will need to counter-lean! (sit up straight, not leaned with the bike)
All right then, I’ll take that on board..
My suggestion was, that as the pushbike goes to fall left, the wheel flops that way and throws the bike to the right.
The wheel then flops to the right and over she goes to the left and on and on...
This effect is amplified with each cycle until...Bang, and she crashes.
I wasn’t suggesting this was the same as a human input, but your point is well made and I’ll withdraw
the comment.
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What happened? I go away for a couple of days and the MOTHER of all discussions appears to have broken out :bow: :bow:
I'll say this
Simplistically:-
I know that if I'm pushing the bike around in the garage the gyroscopic/counter steering effect is minimal and I point the front wheel where it want the bike to go
When I'm riding the bike the gyroscopic/counter steering is greatly increased with speed and becomes the primary means of steering the bike
At what point it changes from one to the other I don't know, but the clever bit IMO is that my brain (and all of yours) can seamlessly transfer across as the speed increases :cool: :cool: :cool:
That is all I have
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All right then, I’ll take that on board..
My suggestion was, that as the pushbike goes to fall left, the wheel flops that way and throws the bike to the right.
The wheel then flops to the right and over she goes to the left and on and on...
This effect is amplified with each cycle until...Bang, and she crashes.
I wasn’t suggesting this was the same as a human input, but your point is well made and I’ll withdraw
the comment.
I think what you're talking about - the bike continuing on, riderless, all the while self-correcting for road irregularities and staying upright - continues as long as there's enough momentum and gyroscopic force. Unless something forces the front wheel radically to the side, it'll keep going until it's too slow and falls over.
It's not a thing of oscillations finally getting out of hand causing the bike to go down. What's cause here and what's effect?
In a sense, the front wheel correcting for unbalance is being the affect, but on the other hand, it is causing the bike staying balanced. Sort of a feed-back loop kind of a thing.
tris - ...but the clever bit IMO is that my brain (and all of yours) can seamlessly transfer across as the speed increases :cool: :cool: :cool:
Yeah, isn't it??? Now if we could just understand how we manage to do that!
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I cannot resist, despite my earlier post
I am with the "bike steers in the direction the front wheel is pointed" at low speed (around walking pace).
IMHO (and it's only the way I see it) what countersteering is all about, centripital (or centrifugal if you prefer, 2 sides of the same coin really) throwing the bike out, the front wheel is a gyro and wants to remain stable in the direction it is moving. Opposite input forces an instability and precession pushes the bike over and down the bike goes into the turn
At low speed, centrpital force is minimal, as is gyroscopic, the only significant forces are gravity and contact patch, so the bike steers where you point it, as Tris and others have stated.
You don't countersteer when wheeling it around the garage why are the phyics different if you are astride it?
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There are two equally strong opinions expressed in this thread...The video I shot yesterday and more riding around slow on the dirt bike convinced me of my opinion...It may just be the dirt bike but later on I'll try it on the 79 Triumph 750....My 96 Ducati 900 Monster definitely steers in the direction of the turn at low speed because the limited steering comes into play...But I can not say that a bit of countersteer is not used prior to the start of the Ducati low speed turn...
Perhaps some of you guys need to do slow speed experiments, yes?
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You don't countersteer when wheeling it around the garage why are the phyics different if you are astride it?
Because you are holding the bike upright. If you are astride it and can hold the bike upright while progressing slowly you can steer the bike but you have to adjust your weight to counterbalance it.
We generally don't go around corners with the bike upright. I have done this on the trials bike to avoid a tree trunk but it is not natural.
If you are leaning the bike over, you are initiating that lean by countersteering.
Have you ever seen someone come to a stop and have to quickly remove their right foot from the brake and put it down because the bike wants to fall to the right? They could have avoided that by countersteering as they come to a stop (pushing on the left handlebar grip) to force the weight to shift to the left. Try it and you will see.
How do I unsubscribe to this thread?
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How do I unsubscribe to this thread?
By not reading it and sticking to what you said yesterday. :grin:......Now I see why the first couple posters called this another oil thread. LOL! Please don't quote me again because I am done with this discussion. :)
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Take your motorcycle off the stand, turn the steering full lock to the left and let go. Which way does it fall over? That's how the bike can be leaned at very low speed.
None of this stuff is really rocket science, it's just two effects operating simultaneously, superimposed. Only one effect (countersteering) fades to nothing as speed slows to nothing, and in that circumstance the very weak effect of trail shows it head.
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twa - don't confuse front end geometry with countersteering. When the wheel is turned to the right, it kicks off centerline to the left. The bike is unbalanced to the right and will lean that direction.
Like Old Jock said, different forces are at play between under 10mph.
Well said Tusayan - beat me to it!
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Take your motorcycle off the stand, turn the steering full lock to the left and let go. Which way does it fall over? That's how the bike can be leaned at very low speed.
That explains low speed lean with little or no counter steer.
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What's interesting to me is that if you lean the bike at close to zero speed using a large steering angle and trail, with the bike now falling over in the direction you turned the bars, you can remove the lean by just accelerating a little bit and letting countersteering pick it up again. You can initiate the lean with one effect and remove it with another. :grin:
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^^^ When in doubt , gas it .
Dusty
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I think we need to call a conference at Cedarvale and consider adding "counter steering" to the contraband list, along with religion, politics, and gunz.
:grin:
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I think we need to call a conference at Cedarvale and consider adding "counter steering" to the contraband list, along with religion, politics, and gunz.
:grin:
Or we could do some field experiments , they won't solve anything , but they could be worth a few laughs :laugh:
Dusty
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twa - don't confuse front end geometry with countersteering. When the wheel is turned to the right, it kicks off centerline to the left. The bike is unbalanced to the right and will lean that direction.
Whatever. :laugh:
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I think we need to call a conference at Cedarvale and consider adding "counter steering" to the contraband list, along with religion, politics, and gunz.
:grin:
Hear Hear...I second the motion!
If you hold a bicycle, keeping it as completely vertical as possible, let it go and it falls to one side, did the bike "self initiate" its own counter steering?
As they used to say on SNL...Discuss! :)
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Or we could do some field experiments , they won't solve anything , but they could be worth a few laughs :laugh:
Dusty
Cedar Vale: Moto Guzzi's Center for Counter Steering & Control, aka known as CVMGCCSC to be a bit cryptic from henceforth.
Almost as impressive as SPECTRE from James Bond lore!
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Round profile tires, rake/trail on the steering end, centrifugal force, gyro effect and balance all based on the afore mentioned changing parameters. Isn't physics fun! I enjoy reading these type of threads.
I have heard it said that most drops occur at slow speeds because the operator turns the handlebars without realizing what will happen. :evil:
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Hear Hear...I second the motion!
If you hold a bicycle, keeping it as completely vertical as possible, let it go and it falls to one side, did the bike "self initiate" its own counter steering?
As they used to say on SNL...Discuss! :)
No such thing as "completely vertical" in the scientific world. If that could be attained, along with zero outside forces (again impossible), it wouldn't fall over. In the spirit of your question, the forks would most probably turn to the countersteered position when it fell over, whichever way it fell.
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Good chance I'll make CV this year and most likely it will be a ride from SoCal.
I'm going to put a note on top of my tankbag.."countersteer log" .
I'm going to see how many countersteers it takes to go from CA to CV.
:-)
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Good chance I'll make CV this year and most likely it will be a ride from SoCal.
I'm going to put a note on top of my tankbag.."countersteer log" .
I'm going to see how many countersteers it takes to go from CA to CV.
:-)
We could start a poll and guess. I'll take a gander at 4,238,982 individual inputs on counter steering from start to end!
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Good chance I'll make CV this year and most likely it will be a ride from SoCal.
I'm going to put a note on top of my tankbag.."countersteer log" .
I'm going to see how many countersteers it takes to go from CA to CV.
:-)
Well...
We could start a poll and guess. I'll take a gander at 4,238,982 individual inputs on counter steering from start to end!
...if it is windy it might be one 1,500 mile long counter steer :shocked:
Dusty
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...if it is windy it might be one 1,500 mile long counter steer :shocked:
Dusty
Is that windy as in..
“...The Long and Windy Road...?”
(Lennon, Mc Cartney)
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Well...
...if it is windy it might be one 1,500 mile long counter steer :shocked:
Dusty
Good point, but...
If the wind is in the right direction it might be almost none!