Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: canuguzzi on June 15, 2015, 09:53:11 AM
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Fantastic! About 600 miles in now, another 2600 or so to go on this trip. A few observations:
1. The idle is smoother. My Norge never vibbed much even at idle but you could detect it in the mirrors at stop lights, a little shimmy. Now the mirrors are nearly crystal clear at idle and through the rev range.
2. Fuel economy is mid 40s going up the coast and back and forth to US101 so that is pretty good.
3. On the freeway drone I got 48 over a 120 mile stretch.
4. Revs are very clean and it seems to rev quicker to redline. I dont do that often but we are trying this out right?
5. Throttle inputs are a bit more sensitive easy to get used to.
Engine does seem to run cooler. Riding temps are in the high 90s and I am keeping records so I'll report at the end of the trip and with some logged data.
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I want one. I rode hard yesterday and I noticed a little ping at times rolling on hard in top gear 80-90 MPH. Teps were close to 90 and humid.
Is the red line set at 8.5K?
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I want one...
Me, too! I am finally ready to give it a go, having just completed our move.
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Fuel economy is mid 40s going up the coast and back and forth to US101 so that is pretty good.
3. On the freeway drone I got 48 over a 120 mile stretch.
But the red suspenders crowd say you can't get good fuel economy with fuel injection! :rolleyes: :azn:
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Corvalis to past The Dalles, 190 miles freeway and got 53.1 mpg and a reciept to prove it. Last in Kennewick at 48.5 mpg.
Waltr, I upshift at 8 if I need to spin it that fast which is rare, since not much else happens above that. Most around 5 and if I need to hustle, 7500 does enough for me.
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Is this a recent NEW map? My map is functioning pretty well except for the occasional ping doing HWY roll on in top gear. It could idle smoother especially cold and seems to take around 6 to 10 miles to run the best. All in all I am very pleased.
Now that it is warmer the bike is getting better fuel mileage, seems to like it HOT.
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Is this a recent NEW map? My map is functioning pretty well except for the occasional ping doing HWY roll on in top gear. It could idle smoother especially cold and seems to take around 6 to 10 miles to run the best. All in all I am very pleased.
Now that it is warmer the bike is getting better fuel mileage, seems to like it HOT.
Which itteration are you running? If it's one of the early ones Mark has probably tweaked it further?
Pete
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Now that it is warmer the bike is getting better fuel mileage, seems to like it HOT.
I've noticed that a long hard ride seems to quiet down my Breva a lot, I agree that these bikes actually enjoy the heat. Probably because they don't have any form of thermostat...
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Which itteration are you running? If it's one of the early ones Mark has probably tweaked it further?
Pete
I will connect to Guzzidiag and get the map info. Mark modded the map for me last October to allow 8500 rpm redline when I was a a buddies shop during an event. I did a dyno run and found the map was allowing shutdown at 7200 RPM.
Dyno operator who seemed to be very well versed in Magnetti Marelli said the bike was pulling strong and had no doubt the bike could do 95 at the rear wheel if allowed to rev at least to 8200.
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Waltr, this is the latest map, sent out this month. Now have over a 1000 miles on the Norge using it (1100 miles over last 3 days) and it is great.
Ran twisties, freeways and city mix. No issues and revs cleanly. It is an improvement over the last map dated sometime last fall.
As steady as cruise control between 3k and up. Easy to hold an exact speed so I'm pleased. Fuel econ is now high 40s (47-49) without trying. I did start out with the Norge in a very good state of tune so no doubt that helps. A good map over a bad tune just makes for exactly that.
Jeff Olson, I did take a run at some of the road you're on, Norge is rock solid and steady, big rigs and all. Trick is to stay out of the crown ridge, I5 is crappy there. If you can, fast lane it, much easier ride. I took the chance and had the Norge close to triple digits and no wandering or buffeting sticking to the fast lane and off the crown.
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I've noticed that a long hard ride seems to quiet down my Breva a lot, I agree that these bikes actually enjoy the heat. Probably because they don't have any form of thermostat...
Errr? Breva 1100 does have a thermostat.
Pete
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Waltr, this is the latest map, sent out this month. Now have over a 1000 miles on the Norge using it (1100 miles over last 3 days) and it is great.
Ran twisties, freeways and city mix. No issues and revs cleanly. It is an improvement over the last map dated sometime last fall.
As steady as cruise control between 3k and up. Easy to hold an exact speed so I'm pleased. Fuel econ is now high 40s (47-49) without trying. I did start out with the Norge in a very good state of tune so no doubt that helps. A good map over a bad tune just makes for exactly that.
Jeff Olson, I did take a run at some of the road you're on, Norge is rock solid and steady, big rigs and all. Trick is to stay out of the crown ridge, I5 is crappy there. If you can, fast lane it, much easier ride. I took the chance and had the Norge close to triple digits and no wandering or buffeting sticking to the fast lane and off the crown.
Norge Pilot,
PM sent,
Thanks,
Walt
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Walt, that map you are using still has the 'rev limit input gear' set at at the default factory setting. The latest maps have all the rev limits set at 8500.
I said I'd send the Map to all the Norge owners whom I have an email address for, I just haven't done it yet. It'll have to wait until tonight, but I'll do it.
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Walt, that map you are using still has the 'rev limit input gear' set at at the default factory setting. The latest maps have all the rev limits set at 8500.
I said I'd send the Map to all the Norge owners whom I have an email address for, I just haven't done it yet. It'll have to wait until tonight, but I'll do it.
Thank you all.
Walter
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OK, I've sent the map to everyone I had email addresses for. Some of you already have the latest, so I may have sent it to you again.
If I missed out on anyone, let me know.
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OK, I've sent the map to everyone I had email addresses for. Some of you already have the latest, so I may have sent it to you again.
If I missed out on anyone, let me know.
PM'd you.
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Just want to comment on the 7286 map. I have been running the 6963 map for the past while and thought the bike was running fine. The bike has a Mistral slip on with the db killer installed. This new map is the one!! Cold starting, spot on. Parking lot speeds, spot on. Overall smoothness and throttle response, perfect!! I haven't calculated fuel mileage yet but I don't see that it matters as I can't stop grinning :grin: after riding this bike.
Once again I would like to thank you Mark for all your hard work, you nailed it this time. :thumb:
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About 2000 miles on the new map now, wonderful thing. I've been running along some rivers in 5th from 2500 and up and in 3rd from 2000 to redline and nary any snatching at all.
Stone cold starts are a press rocker and run affair. The very high 40s and on freeways the off and on 50+ mpg are the norm. Engine pulls smooth as silk.
A Vmax behind me and riding my ass on the entrance to the freeway we caught unawares and the Norge, barely audible pulled a 3rd gear to redline entrance and left him wondering just what that side and tail trunk bagged thing that pulled away so fast really was. Not trying to say a Norge out runs a Vmax, just saying it ain't all that but today the Norge sure was. :)
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'Moto Guzzi. Punching above its weight since 1921!'
:laugh:
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I don't want to be critical but the previous map seemed to run better in my bike. My bike has always been a little rough running on start up with any of the maps other than the closed loop stock map but this latest map seems to be the worst. I talked to Mark and I took the K&N out and installed a new stock filter. I installed a new set of stock plugs. I just revisited the valve adj and they are good at .006 and .008. Previous map was smooth at 3.5k to 5k this map not so much. Thought of hooking the gauges back up.
Previous map had better fuel mileage especially running hard, this map around 6 mpg less.
I heard someone mention there is a new download for a the Writer program. I tried two separate times to download the new map just in case but same results. Every time I start I have to baby the throttle to get it to keep running. One other possibility I I got a bad tank of fuel. I tried some Startron and LiquiPerformance Ethanol treatment. Been around 350 miles with the new map. In the new maps defense it is more responsive to throttle but a little rough from 4-5K. I will run out this tank with the fuel additive and try some fresh.
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Hmmmmmm? Is your bike a flat Tappet model? If so how many miles?
Pete
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Rollers, one of the first ones. No sign of wear 2K ago. I just reloaded the previous map and was much better. I tried the latest factory map and all is perfect. Engine and top end is quiet. Never run anything but pure esther synth-- no mayo ever.
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Miles are 16.5 K
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Walt, did you reset the learning parameters?
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Dump the tank Walter, why run the crap that is in there? Run it in a lawn mower or something, not worth the few bucks to put questionable fuel through a well tuned engine.
My 013 was made late 012 and fires up instantly and purrs from a cold start (40s temp). Then, the warmer it gets the better it runs.
I'll check my valves this week after the trip ends but the engine ticks sound good. I do now need a slight adjustment of the throttle free play but very slight. I do find myself with a little more clutch work at very low speeds but I pride myself on leaving a stop without increasing revs and dropping them as the clutch plays out, instead just apull away and up the rev bands.
I've run three iterations of the map now, each better than the previous. That said, it isn't like the stock map didn't do ok, it just seemed a bit thick, as if the engine was being held back, as best I can describe it.
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Yes, always
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Waltr, I don't doubt that your bike is behaving differently and for some reason you are not getting as good results as others. The thing is though in my now considerable experience if there is a marked difference in performance or how an engine behaves there is always some root cause other than the map. We're not asking questions because we doubt your abilities, we're simply trying to address the issue through a logical sequence of questions and a process of elimination.
Pete
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No offense taken to questions. My ego is not wrapped up in this or in no way trying to say anything about the mapping. I will revisit throttle body balance as time allows. I wondered about the response of my bike to mapping and gave some thought to fuel pump but that was changed as a part of an intermittent fuel tank sending unit a month back and nothing changed. Fuel filter is new. Like I said thought I got a bad tank of fuel but the bike started and ran like a top when loading the stock map back.
I can add fuel with CO Trim and the latest map and idle and starting will come in line with 12-14 but seems to run a little doggy elsewhere.
I should probably change out the plug caps for good measure, or at least measure them to see if they are in spec.
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Good-o.
Now are you sure that the throttle stop screws and linkage rod have never been messed with? This is critical. I had one particularly perplexing Sport 1200 that had had its RIGHT hand stop screw tweaked but nothing else. It took me ages to work that one out.
Does the bike 'Chuff' at idle at all? Does it seem to 'Miss' and 8/12/16 stroke from time to time?
Pete
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Pete,
Only thing I can say is every time I did throttle balance I pulled up the tutorial pics on Guzzi tech and made sure I was adjusting what was recommended. The last time I made any adjustments the bike was dead smooth.
If I understand chuffing I would say that is what the bike is doing at idle with the latest map. It actuall sounds like a lean misfire, leads me to think I need to check the screws I used to block the vacuum ports (canister is adios). The bike has a rich smell as of recent, even noticed it with the stock map. A few days ago after reloading the new map over again I smelled a strong acrid cat smell that was very unusual for this bike.
Whatever is happening is recent.
I am unsure what mean by the 8/12/16 reference means.
Walt
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Sorry, four stroke engine should fire every second revolution of the crank if it's firing intermittently it may go through two or more cycles before you actually get a power stroke and ignition.
Can you take a few pics of the throttle stop screws, (Both sides.) and the ball joints on the linkage rod. Also just see if a 3mm Allen key will fit into the stop screws. Don't try and move them. Just see if one will fit in. If one fits in the LH stop screw but not in the right we're probably going to be looking into this a bit deeper.
In my experience as long as stuff hasn't been buggered about with all bikes respond in a very similar fashion to re-mapping, obviously with the same, correct, map.) any differences can usually be fine tuned by adding or shortening a few, very few, microseconds of fuel using the CO trim function but if someone with an essentially similar bike is having radically different outcomes there is usually either a *Physical* cause or there is something wrong in the tune.
Pete
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http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=61267.0
Just read this and ordered the NGK caps. Last time I adjusted throttle body balance was last September, still when I can make time I will get on it and check and get the pictures.
I rode last Sunday and got caught in a tremendous downpour. Cant say it was doing the same thing but I remember the throttle at low speed seemed to be very abrupt. I noticed this because shortly after the rain cleared I pulled into a roadside BBQ to pick up a few chicken dinners for the wife and I and the parking lot was gravel and it seemed very difficult to be smooth with the throttle. Did not think much of it then because I had been on the bike for 9 hours and a little spent. The next time I started the bike was after I loaded the new map.
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Pete just reread your last post and I appreciate your involvement. I do not believe I touched the throttle stop screw but to say I am incapable of such would be a lie. Just like the last time I got stopped for a speeding ticket I appeared in court and stated that I have no doubt the speed you recorded is correct, but, I had no intention to be going that fast I simply was not paying attention. The Magistrate let me go with a reduced fine and no points on my license.
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Pulled the plug caps and wires, both side measured 4.9 - 4.95 K. So do not think there is a problem there. As usual both new plugs have bone white center insulators. Time to pull off the plastic.
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OK! Reset valves to a nice snug feel 008. ex and 006. in. The last time I did it I may have left them a little on the loose side of OK. Readjusted throttle free play, probably a little tight. Reset TPS with Guzzidiag. Hooked up the Carbmate balancer and was off a little at idle and did need to readjust the balance at high speed. Reset TPS and went back over idle--needed a tweek and high speed good. Reset tps.
Loaded latest map, cleared learning parameters.
Pete I took pictures and loaded them on photobucket but they are blurry, at least the ones close up on the throttle bodies. The yellow paint is undisturbed on the sacred screw and the same on the linkage.
I changed all the transmission and CARC fluid while at it.
So if you are waiting to here it still runs like shit well. Wait no more. at least warm this bike runs like a champ. Hit the key and fires with little oomph and settles in a few seconds. I have not ridden it yet, Taking a break. I need to put the plastic back on but while everything is off thought I would clean her up a bit.
Nothing was grossley out except the valves may have been on the loose side. But everything did need attention.. I am sorry for highjacking this thread but now I may be able to better evaluate.
Thanks Pete.
http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r526/wroman214/027_zpsoxywnz2i.jpg
http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r526/wroman214/023_zpsyi9pl1ds.jpg
http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r526/wroman214/021_zpsovhnmexq.jpg
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When setting the high speed balance you do close both the air bleeds?
Pete
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No, I always adjusted the idle first the high speed. Doh! Have I been doing that backwards? I did 1) the throttle cable, 2) idle bleed 3) high speed, in that order. If I need to reverse the last 2 steps I will, just not today.
I did do a final check of idle balance after the high speed and it was spot on.
Just came back from a road test (4 miles) and it is smooooth. Been at this all day. Better off idle running than I can remember.
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Close both air bleeds.
Adjust high speed balance using the screw on the bell crank on the LH throttle body.
Kill motor.
Re-set TPS.
Restart engine.
Whichever side has the highest manifold depression open the air bleed to achive idle balance.
Pete
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Roger Captain! I just got done with the lawn though and I am going for a ride. It is hot as snot right now and I am not crawling around on the the ground and taking the plastic off again. Will have to wait for the AM and the sun is away from the garage door.
Come to think of it that is the way I did it the first time out and I came to understand the right side idle bleed was the one that would need to be opened I just did the two in reverse.
Lazy, you know.
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Hi Pete. I know the steps you described are the correct method for a TB balance, I was just hoping you could elaborate a bit. If the air bleed screws only effect the balance at idle, why do you need to close them before you adjust the high speed balance? Why kill the motor before you reset TPS? Should you recheck high speed balance after you complete the process? If it is off after adjusting the air bleed screw what does this indicate?
Close both air bleeds.
Adjust high speed balance using the screw on the bell crank on the LH throttle body.
Kill motor.
Re-set TPS.
Restart engine.
Whichever side has the highest manifold depression open the air bleed to achive idle balance.
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Hi Pete. I know the steps you described are the correct method for a TB balance, I was just hoping you could elaborate a bit. If the air bleed screws only effect the balance at idle, why do you need to close them before you adjust the high speed balance? Why kill the motor before you reset TPS? Should you recheck high speed balance after you complete the process? If it is off after adjusting the air bleed screw what does this indicate?
The air bleeds will have an effect, t will just be very minor but it's good practice to close them.
Why kill the motor? Because you can't re-calibrate the TOS with the engine running!
Some people reckon that if you repeat the process a few times the balance will remain closer throughout the throttle opening range. I can't see why this would be the case and to my mind it's a bit too Uber-anal! I just perform the steps as listed and my bike is super-smooth and pulls like a freight train. I can't see any point in fart-arseing about trying to get it clinically perfect.
Pete
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Well got home from work and pulled the plastic on the Norge once again. And lets just say I fixed the bike by adjusting it correctly. I feel like I should wear one of those signs that pet owners make there pets wear and take there pictures. Mine should include "Lefty Loosey - Righty Tighty. I am going to leave it there.
Thanks Pete.
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All good. How do you find the map?
Pete
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Have not ridden yet, did not finish up until late. Starts and idles better. Will report back.
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A little over a hundred miles on the map so far. Quite a difference. Very smooth power delivery. Torque everywhere and very deceiving. Of all the motorcycles I have owned since 1976 I would say the best bike engine and transmission combo belonged to my BMW K1300LT. The bike was not my favorite but the engine and gearing were perfect. The Norge with this map is right there, about as perfect as I could imagine. Great Job!
Now if this rain would stop I would like to do ride up to the Thousand Islands and back. Eager to get out and do a long highway run to get a feeling for the new Matris forks and shock and this new map.
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Good work Walt. :thumb:
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Well just thought I would report. Since last posting I have logged around 1,400 to 1,500 miles and the bike is about where I left it after 100 miles on the new map. Pretty well pleased and fuel mileage and power is good.
I rode up to Lake George this week and stayed the night and got a high of 46 mpg and low of 43 mpg. All I can say is the 43 mpg was after filling up twice on the NY Thruway ( rt 87) with high test Sunoco. Bike did not like it. Coming back I filled up at a Stewart's and I could tell immediately everything was better.
One observation more than anything else, I regapped the Nippondenso Iridium plugs to .025 in (.6mm) and these are in the bike now. With them the bike has a different idle than with the stock twin ground electrode plugs, The Denso's have a more of a lope or power pulse at idle and the bike feels stronger but not nearly as smooth. I check the gaps on the stock plugs and they are new and measure .030 (.7 mm). My initial impression is the 12,000 mile regapped Denso's run better, with the stock plugs it seems as if the bike runs a little rich. I am not saying it runs rich but in comparison that is what it feels like. The other maps I have tried showed none of these differences in plugs.
All in all a happy camper, thanks again Pete and Beetle for all your help.
Walt
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Finally got around to installing map version 7286 on the '12 Norge - All good except the idle, very rough kept wanting to die. I have an aftermarket Agostini exhaust, and after some searching and reading here, ended up adjusting the CO trim to +10. - Problem solved, all is well -- if the weather isn't crazy hot next weekend I'll take it out for a proper trial run - Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this topic, and especially the guys in Australia for giving us the tools and knowledge to make it happen !
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Not surprising, given the map was made for the stock exhaust. :laugh:
If you feel there are any little areas you think might need tweaking, let me know and I'll tweak.
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Here is a 1000 mile report on Norge map 7286 (Loaded on my 2012 rollerized GT8V with an Agostini pipe and a canisterectomy )
The Good
1. Improved gas mileage, averaging 47 mpg
2. Decreased popping on deceleration
3. Smooth power deliver across all RPMs
4. Smooth idle
The Bad
1. Rough cold start, have to give some throttle to avoid dying for the first few seconds. ( Once the bike is warmed up, fires right up without touching the throttle. )
The Weird
1. Experiencing the "hanging idle", meaning when I let off the throttle and pull the clutch, there is a slight delay before the RPMs drop back down to idle. This doesn't really worry me too much, just thought I'd report it.
Overall my experience with this map is very positive. I may tinker with the CO setting a bit more to see if I can improve the cold start issue....currently at +10.
Thanks again !
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I will modify the map based on your feedback and get back to you. :thumb: