Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: tonUPRacer on June 22, 2015, 09:19:33 AM
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This weekend I got a chance to hook up again with another V7 rider who lives nearby. I was really looking forward to seeing and hearing his bike since he went with the full "GuzziTech" mods. ECU remap, 2-1 exhaust, open air box etc. I was even happier when he suggested we swap bikes! It was an unusally cool June morning in our neck of the woods, maybe 55 and overcast. Anyway, I had about a 100 mile route mapped out through some alphabet soup country roads that turned out to be as rough as they were twisty. Back to the bikes. My riding buddy's bike was spotless (in case he's reading this) and the 2-1 pipes with the shorty can looked really nice. The welds were good and pipe bends looked great. The rear of the bike looked a bit "empty" with the exposed swing arm, but I guess I'm just used to seeing my long Arrow pipes. When he fired up the bike it was quite a shock, it was LOUD. But it did sound good. Just think of the old dirt track stock car races you used to attend. We set off and after about 20 miles stopped again and now it was time to switch. I was amazed at how different his bike felt just putting a leg over it. I guess that was largely due to his suspension settings and he also had the instrument lowering bracket which I thought also looked nice. The biggest difference was sound, did I say LOUD? Again, he did have the shorty can on, he also purchased the standard exhaust can from Todd too, but I did want to hear what that shorty was like, so I'm glad he kept it on.
I really didn't notice any major difference going through gears as far as the fueling goes, I know GuzziTech promises some mid range improvement, but I didn't notice it, maybe I'm just not that experienced. It was fun gassing the bike and hearing it roar along. My friend said he wanted to hear his bike over the wind, mission accomplished. There was a little decel popping on over-run but no harsh backfiring. The biggest thing I noticed was on a couple of high-speed passes trying to do the "ton" the bike started to miss and cough bad enough that I had to get off the gas. So something needs to be adjusted there. My friend said he hadn't ridden much and I guess he should have known who he was lending his bike to! The other thing was I was missing my suspension on those bumps, my upgraded front and rear springs really did make a big difference on those roads. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find my buddy has those upgrades soon too.
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t31.0-8/11402833_10152902540534071_2606941165905842775_o.jpg)
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Fantastic report!
Thanks for sharing!
:thumb:
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Interesting. Doesn't sound like his performance mods are doing what they are advertised to do, except for the greater dbs.
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Interesting. Doesn't sound like his performance mods are doing what they are advertised to do, except for the greater dbs.
The description of the high speed runs seems like the engine fueling is lean...
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Pipes alone aren't going to yield much except sound. If that floats your boat so be it. There's a good bit to invest if you want to change real figures.
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I don't think GuzziTech makes claims of HP increases but they do claim better cold start and mid-range. Since the bike was already warm, I can't tell how that is and I forgot to ask. I was curious to see about any mid-range "punch" that maybe I was missing but I couldn't detect it. I guess it does come down to sound and how much you like to tinker. I did pay a premium for my Arrows but at the same time they have been bolt on and go. I didn't have to mess with any fueling etc. So when you add it all up they weren't much more expensive if at all when you consider time invested, and my bike hits the ton and keeps going.
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Kev, he said this, "since he went with the full "GuzziTech" mods. ECU remap, 2-1 exhaust, open air box etc. " So there is a lot more invested than just a set of cans.
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GuzziTech is planning to offer a Big Bore 4V kit which should be interesting and I'll be curious to see what HP gains they get with that. I'm sure some will go down that path, if I'm lucky my riding partner will and I'll get to test that too! :thumb:
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So he's spent a substantial sum of money making his bike anti socially and tiringly loud and run worse than stock. Damn!
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That would have been money well spent on suspension upgrades instead.
Iv'e tried open air boxes, and I think they're horrible-putting the airbox back to stock should help, although I'm sure some would argue that.
Ken
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This is why I hate FI. I had to spend $300 to mostly stop the popping on decal when I added Mistrals to my V7R.
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Wow! Two V7Rs in one spot, almost a NAR! :boozing: Reminds me of the ride here a few years back with three (3) Monzas. Call the Guinness people… Sounds like you had fun and yeah, suspension upgrades usually give more for your money than engine.
cr
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GuzziTech is planning to offer a Big Bore 4V kit which should be interesting and I'll be curious to see what HP gains they get with that. I'm sure some will go down that path, if I'm lucky my riding partner will and I'll get to test that too! :thumb:
THIS WILL GET SUBSTANTIAL GAINS, YES! Pricey but not fluff. I've known about this for awhile. We'll see when it happens, but it will be a game-changer.
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THIS WILL GET SUBSTANTIAL GAINS, YES! Pricey but not fluff. I've known about this for awhile. We'll see when it happens, but it will be a game-changer.
I doubt it. A bit more torque and more vibration without rebalancing. The limiting factor with the Smallblocks is the heron heads. Punching them out to a bigger capacity will achieve little.
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I doubt it. A bit more torque and more vibration without rebalancing. The limiting factor with the Smallblocks is the heron heads. Punching them out to a bigger capacity will achieve little.
My experience and mwrenn's experience would say otherwise. Moving from 2 to 4 valves per head is pretty significant. Boundaries can be moved with the heron heads. Are you going on theory or actual experience Pete? How many sb herons with major conversions have you ridden? I personally can only go by my experience, but I've talked to Mike about his pretty extensively and I don't think he's pulling my leg.
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MWrenn's bike is a 4 valve but not a Heron head-same with any Lario.
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This is why I hate FI. I had to spend $300 to mostly stop the popping on decal when I added Mistrals to my V7R.
Guzzidiag is free, but you need the proper cables. Much easier than changing jets in a carb.
Ken
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Larios use a pent roof combustion chamber with a fairly wide, by contemporary standards, included valve angle. Utterly different to the Heron head design of the 2V smallblocks. People like Ed Milich have spent years doing ongoing development work on the smallblocks and while porting may give some benefits it will be re-camming and valvetrain changes that will be paying the highest dividends.
Look, there's nothing new to see here. The Smallblock engine has remained basically unchanged for forty years apart from changes to bore and stroke. People have been trying to, claiming and failing to get radical increases in performance for all forty of those years and their efforts to get cheap horsepower out of the engine has always borne the same disappointing results. Why? Because you cannot radically increase volumetric efficiency when you are turning gasses through 90 degrees into and out of the combustion chamber and valve area is limited by the surface area of the flat head. Quite simply pi-r2 is smaller than Pi-r3/2. It's the laws of physics, they are immutable and inarguable. Sorry.
And yes, I know this from personal experience and observation.
Pete
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Pete,
I think we are talking about two different things. The changes I'm talking about are valves (numbers and/or size) as well as things like compression and cams. If all someone wants to do is re-tune/open the exhaiust/screw with the airbox, I'd agree with you; it's fruitless.
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PEte, a crucial word got dropped-are you saying the included angle on the Lario is large or small?
I'm guessing you meant small-and that would make it a pretty good candidate for some power if the carbs (or throttle body) were in the right place.
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It's wider than the current 8V I believe but not as wide as a 2V big block from memory. I don't have a book handy. I'll modify the post.
Pete
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I only figured narrow because I've seen 'em. Good ol'' Duckworth. Among the biggest leaps in 4 stroke technology.
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Speaking of cool small blocks, this strange hybrid sits in the museum in Mandelo. It looks like a small block motor in a conventional tonti frame, 850T tool boxes, V7 Sport tank, front end etc.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/Moto%20Guzzi%20Museum/P7200281_zpsb8f987b7.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/Moto%20Guzzi%20Museum/P7200281_zpsb8f987b7.jpg.html)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/Moto%20Guzzi%20Museum/P7200282_zps130a6307.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/Moto%20Guzzi%20Museum/P7200282_zps130a6307.jpg.html)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/Moto%20Guzzi%20Museum/P7200238_zps4fd90b46.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/Moto%20Guzzi%20Museum/P7200238_zps4fd90b46.jpg.html)
Anyone know the history of this bike?
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Backing up the thread to the OP V7R stock vs Todd'd... I am also experiencing the poor fuelling of short Mistrals.
Would love to cure it. Guzzidiag does not offer the solution yet.
Don't know what does other than giving-in to the stock map until the gurus find a model and time to work out proper options. I can ask about the effect of valve adjustment, or 'fancy' iridium plugs, and/or any other suggestion that comes my way. But for the moment; a light throttle hand is all that seems to work. And, no, Pete it isn't about the noise.
That noise is a byproduct of trying to reach an aesthetic balance on a visually light machine. The long shark gilled traditional V7 pipes matched the fashion of the day the same way American cars used rear fender fins in the 1950's. That style, still in use on Victory cycles etc. looks (to my eye) ridiculous, over weight and impractical. I like to see the seat line, the wheels, and the motor. Everything needs to balance against those proportions. Long, (quiet), pipes hide the rear wheel; again my view. I don't give a rats ass about performance. If I wanted performance I'd own a whole different marque. I enjoy the lines and visceral pleasure of 'motoring'. Here's hoping GuzziDiag finds the route to support the marque's most successful model in the present.
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The noise is secondary. It's the tuned length and volume of the pipe that governs how it will work. Generally speaking a short pipe will work better at the bottom end but will create problems at higher engine speeds. This is a crude explanation but exhaust design isn't a simple subject.
The speed of sound is the only constant in the system. Length and volume along with header diameter, valve and port size and a host of other factors will all have an impact on how the pipe performs but the length of time it takes for the pressure wave to move from the exhaust valve to the end of the pipe and return will remain a constant. It's force and impact will be more governed by pipe shape and volume.
Short, stubby pipes may look trendy but they aren't worth a pinch of shit unless all you want to do is rush noisily from traffic light to traffic light. Regardless of mapping changes you aren't going to get increased volumetric efficiency, especially at the top end, with a stubby pipe. It'll run like a mad woman's shit and no amount of pissfarting about will change that because at elevated engine speeds the harmonics will be actively inhibiting the egress of spent charge or, if you're really lucky, producing increased charge transition leading the ECU to overfuel so you get the full trifecta of hideous din, less performance and lousy fuel economy! Winner! Winner! Chicken dinner! (Not!)
Pete
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GuzziTech is planning to offer a Big Bore 4V kit which should be interesting and I'll be curious to see what HP gains they get with that.
Does anyone actually know whether it will be a Heron head? If it is a kit it may well be a late pentroof or hemi design; in fact, if they were going to all the trouble to come up with a kit with barrels, pistons and heads, surely they would go the whole hog and do what Guzzi should be doing but aren't and that is do what Chuck and Kev have done.
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The noise is secondary. It's the tuned length and volume of the pipe that governs how it will work. Generally speaking a short pipe will work better at the bottom end but will create problems at higher engine speeds. This is a crude explanation but exhaust design isn't a simple subject.
The speed of sound is the only constant in the system. Length and volume along with header diameter, valve and port size and a host of other factors will all have an impact on how the pipe performs but the length of time it takes for the pressure wave to move from the exhaust valve to the end of the pipe and return will remain a constant. It's force and impact will be more governed by pipe shape and volume.
Short, stubby pipes may look trendy but they aren't worth a pinch of shit unless all you want to do is rush noisily from traffic light to traffic light. Regardless of mapping changes you aren't going to get increased volumetric efficiency, especially at the top end, with a stubby pipe. It'll run like a mad woman's shit and no amount of pissfarting about will change that because at elevated engine speeds the harmonics will be actively inhibiting the egress of spent charge or, if you're really lucky, producing increased charge transition leading the ECU to overfuel so you get the full trifecta of hideous din, less performance and lousy fuel economy! Winner! Winner! Chicken dinner! (Not!)
Pete
Why defend the putrid performance of a mini bike built in Italy? Come on! We are talking about a machine that will fall off a cliff at 180 and only brake to a full stop at ground level. It is a spineless piece of shit. Get it? No Point in discussing 'performance'. There is none.
Aesthetics is the strong point of the V7. And that's where your perspective and mine part. Short pipes aren't about trendy bullshit kid's rides. They are about visual balance. Long pipes create leading lines that take the eye past the end of the machine. They are the lower part of the rule of thirds. Good visual technique brings the attention to the subject; it doesn't draw it away without very good reason. To me long pipes are as ugly as ape hangers. And, even ape hangers bring focus to the centre. I would find it very depressing if there truly is no engineering solution beyond the status quo.
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Sorry. But what part of the laws of physics is it you don't understand? I can fully appreciate the aesthetic attraction but form should compliment function, not fight with it!
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Funny! One main reason I bought my V7 Stone were the wonderful, good sounding, not too loud, long original LaFranconi pipes...
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Giddy Canuck 750
The mario Colombo book describes a very similar bike.
The first experiments with a medium capacity V engine, which was later to spawn the V50, V35 and all their descendants, dates from 1972. For the road tests the new propulsion units were mounted in a V7 sport, a large flange having been fitted to adapt them to the gearbox. As can be seen, these engines had a vertically split crankcase. The carburettors fitted were 22mm units while the definitive version recieived 24mm instruments.
I saw this bike on my visit to the museum in 2012
Cheers, voncrump
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Does anyone actually know whether it will be a Heron head? If it is a kit it may well be a late pentroof or hemi design; in fact, if they were going to all the trouble to come up with a kit with barrels, pistons and heads, surely they would go the whole hog and do what Guzzi should be doing but aren't and that is do what Chuck and Kev have done.
As of now it looks like Lario-type heads much like mwren put in his modern V7. The results were tasty. Throw in an 820 and possible other goodies (still speculation on my part) and as I said before, it will be a game-changer. Look up V7 with Lario heads and you'll see Mike's story. Don't take my word.
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Why defend the putrid performance of a mini bike built in Italy? Come on! We are talking about a machine that will fall off a cliff at 180 and only brake to a full stop at ground level. It is a spineless piece of shit. Get it? No Point in discussing 'performance'. There is none.
Aesthetics is the strong point of the V7. And that's where your perspective and mine part. Short pipes aren't about trendy bullshit kid's rides. They are about visual balance. Long pipes create leading lines that take the eye past the end of the machine. They are the lower part of the rule of thirds. Good visual technique brings the attention to the subject; it doesn't draw it away without very good reason. To me long pipes are as ugly as ape hangers. And, even ape hangers bring focus to the centre. I would find it very depressing if there truly is no engineering solution beyond the status quo.
I do believe engineering and aesthetics are two different things. What I believe you have done is aesthetics.
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So? You are saying that Todd has invested in the engineering and production of head castings and then got suitable pistons and barrels to essentially completely re-engineer the top end of a modern smallblock? Impressive if he has. What suggestions for fueling? It would be pointless with the single MUIG3 throttlebody/ECM so I suppose it will require some other sort of TB mechanism and ECU? That will mean a new loom and re-design of the airbox and under-tank area. Valves? Springs? Cam lobe sizes and timing figures? Heat dispersant capabilities? This is all serious stuff.
The stock TB's off an earlier bike will be too small to do justice to higher flow and pump rates so what is going to be used. There are heaps of suitable, larger, TB's out there but buying them second hand is a bit of a pig in a poke. Then you have to mount them rigidly if you want them to stay in tune accurately.
Gosh. We're looking at pretty big $$$$'s here. I wish him luck.
Pete
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Sorry. But what part of the laws of physics is it you don't understand? I can fully appreciate the aesthetic attraction but form should compliment function, not fight with it!
Actually, it should complement function, not compliment it.
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Sorry, spell check malfunction, my bad, shit not given! :laugh:
Pete
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Having re-read this thread: point taken Pete. Short pipes won't work effectively. Before I bin them I'd like to know why they work so much better with the baffles in place. Entirely hated them without DB killers and other than the feeling problem when snapping it wide open can live with them with baffles in place? Can better baffles be designed? Along the lines of expansion chambers on two strokes? Just curious.
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Just about to go to sleep. Chances are I'll be awake in four hours. I'll reply then.
Pete
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Having re-read this thread: point taken Pete. Short pipes won't work effectively. Before I bin them I'd like to know why they work so much better with the baffles in place.
The short answer (that I suspect Pete will expound upon when he gets up) is that baffles change the sound waves and, when the right change is made you stop or lesson the reversion which is killing volumetric efficiency at certain points in the rpm band without them.
On Harleys the typical anti-social rider who blindly installs straight pipes finds reversion that kills his midrange (right where most of us ride) and the redneck engineering solution that helps (but doesn't completely solve it) is to install lollipops (eyelets) threaded into the pipes near the end to break up the sound waves.
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On Harleys the typical anti-social rider who blindly installs straight pipes finds reversion that kills his midrange (right where most of us ride) and the redneck engineering solution that helps (but doesn't completely solve it) is to install lollipops (eyelets) threaded into the pipes near the end to break up the sound waves.
Kev, this brings back memories of a Honda 350 Scrambler I had about 50 years ago. The popular mod was to remove the muffler and install "snuffers" in the end of the pipes. The "snuffers" were essentially a washer that pivoted on a shaft. For loud attention getting just rotate the washers to the open position, for a better running bike just rotate to the closed position. In my teen aged mind the loud setting was what I wanted but you could feel better performance with the quieter setup. We knew nothing about sound waves and all that stuff. Now I'm happy to have a quieter machine that does not make my hearing any worse. Ah, wisdom is a long time coming.
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Kev, this brings back memories of a Honda 350 Scrambler I had about 50 years ago. The popular mod was to remove the muffler and install "snuffers" in the end of the pipes. The "snuffers" were essentially a washer that pivoted on a shaft. For loud attention getting just rotate the washers to the open position, for a better running bike just rotate to the closed position. In my teen aged mind the loud setting was what I wanted but you could feel better performance with the quieter setup. We knew nothing about sound waves and all that stuff. Now I'm happy to have a quieter machine that does not make my hearing any worse. Ah, wisdom is a long time coming.
YUP, a washer welded to the end of a bolt is another version of what I'm describing, though they're all small enough that they're still obnoxiously loud enough on Harley straight pipes no matter how they are facing.
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So? You are saying that Todd has invested in the engineering and production of head castings and then got suitable pistons and barrels to essentially completely re-engineer the top end of a modern smallblock? Impressive if he has. What suggestions for fueling? It would be pointless with the single MUIG3 throttlebody/ECM so I suppose it will require some other sort of TB mechanism and ECU? That will mean a new loom and re-design of the airbox and under-tank area. Valves? Springs? Cam lobe sizes and timing figures? Heat dispersant capabilities? This is all serious stuff.
The stock TB's off an earlier bike will be too small to do justice to higher flow and pump rates so what is going to be used. There are heaps of suitable, larger, TB's out there but buying them second hand is a bit of a pig in a poke. Then you have to mount them rigidly if you want them to stay in tune accurately.
Gosh. We're looking at pretty big $$$$'s here. I wish him luck.
Pete
Nope... I haven't said much as I don't know much. I think you have expounded on things neither of us knows at this time. I do know that Lario heads work on the current V7 w/o significant mapping needed.
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Probably way off topic on everything here but that's what I like about this group. :cool: I just looked for the V7 Sport smallblock test mule in my copy of Colombo's book. It's a 350. No, that's not going anywhere too quickly -- but a good and then readily-available test bed.
Re: Heron vs hemi and all that. A good reference is "The Design and Tuning of Competition Engines" by Philip H. Smith. Robert Bentley, publisher. Still available afaik. Goes through the good and bad of pretty much everything to be considered inside of an engine, and with examples. Has been updated continuously since original publication in the 50s. And has equations for figuring out optimum intake and exhaust lengths.
Hemis worked with compression ratios around 8:1 or so, best that could work with low-octane fuel of the past. The Cosworth DFV killed them off. Don't know how "hemi" current drag race engines are but they're kinda specialized…
The Heron head was primarily used for cost reasons. Yeah, the Cosworth SCA used it, kind of, but rebuild photos I found here http://www.lotus7.com/COSWORTH_SCA.html (http://www.lotus7.com/COSWORTH_SCA.html) don't look much like dished pistons, just extra clearance at the top of the stroke. Cost was a consideration. And the SCA used downdraft intake ports to get a good, straight airflow into the combustion chambers. Can't do that with stock Guzzi heads and no point in making ones that could if you think about the geometry.
The SCA has been mentioned as an inspiration for the SOHC heads used in the Repco-modified Oldsmobile V8 that got Jack Brabham his third world driving championship and first constructor's championship but there was only some inspiration, combustion chambers were fairly conventional wedge-type. I think early Jaguar V12s used Heron heads. THose engines are fine boat anchors�
I love old smallblocks anyway. It's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than it is to ride a fast bike slow.
cr
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Wait , aren't Lario heads basically hand grenades waiting for someone to pull the pin ? :evil: Just what everyone needs , a very expensive mod that goes boom :huh: If ya wanna go fast , start out with something fast :grin:
Dusty
Ahh... What you don't know won't kill ya'. :wink:
Your last statement speaks volumes in naivety. That's such an overused under-thought expression. Grin I'll except, but truth I know better. :boozing:
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Rednecks, and redneck wannabes around these parts love to advertise on the side of the Ram pickum up trucks that they have a HEMI! Guy got out of a big yellow one today, with a orange HEMI cap on, I was getting on my BREVA 1100, I said this has a HEMI, he just looked and me and wondered off. <shrug>
PS I stoled the <shrug> thing from that old guy in Indiana with a dam full head of curly hair! :wink:
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I don't see how you can expect a one box approach to fueling (ECU remap).
Please forgive me for being old school but when I "improved" my 400F back in '76 I had the bike rejetted and Dyno-tuned with the "best-guess" jet change and Dyno to confirm the revised power.
My Griso has an ECU -remap and ran fine with old exhaust. With my new 20+ lb lighter exhaust I expected to have to re-tune.
My expected solution is a Power Commander V with Auto Tune and possibly another re-flash.
Yes, I know selling my G1100 and buying a G1200 -8v may be a wiser move I've grown fond of my G1100.
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Wow! I actually got a full nights sleep. First time in years! Amazing!
Look at the end of the day it's not worth arguing over but the fact that the OP's example bike runs poorly and won't rev out rather confirms my point and argument don't you think?
If people want to do stuff for cosmetic reasons,either visual or auditory, go ahead! Knock yer selves out! It's no skin off my nose. All I'm hoping to do is convince people who are interested in having a bike that runs well that they are wasting their money and will actually risk damaging their machines if they purchase and fit something built with so little knowledge and understanding.
I actually like the single TB smallblocks and the six speed gearbox is a gem but you're not going to get ANY real performance increase without a LOT of work and most importantly an understanding of how engines work.
Pete
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Wow! I actually got a full nights sleep. First time in years! Amazing!
Look at the end of the day it's not worth arguing over but the fact that the OP's example bike runs poorly and won't rev out rather confirms my point and argument don't you think?
If people want to do stuff for cosmetic reasons,either visual or auditory, go ahead! Knock yer selves out! It's no skin off my nose. All I'm hoping to do is convince people who are interested in having a bike that runs well that they are wasting their money and will actually risk damaging their machines if they purchase and fit something built with so little knowledge and understanding.
I actually like the single TB smallblocks and the six speed gearbox is a gem but you're not going to get ANY real performance increase without a LOT of work and most importantly an understanding of how engines work.
Pete
Amen to that statement! :thumb:
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Wow! I actually got a full nights sleep. First time in years! Amazing!
{congratulations... please send the recipe}
Look at the end of the day it's not worth arguing over but the fact that the OP's example bike runs poorly and won't rev out rather confirms my point and argument don't you think?
{Could not agree more... A) it is not worthy of argument, B) you are undoubtedly correct.}
If people want to do stuff for cosmetic reasons,either visual or auditory, go ahead! Knock yer selves out! It's no skin off my nose.
{Thank you; a skinless nose is an unhappy nose... wish there were a solution to melding aesthetics and mechanical efficiency}
All I'm hoping to do is convince people who are interested in having a bike that runs well that they are wasting their money and will actually risk damaging their machines if they purchase and fit something built with so little knowledge and understanding.
{you've made me re-think my Mistrals. Still, that company has been building parts in the backyard of our marque for the past fifteen years; surely they must have some technical background}
I actually like the single TB smallblocks and the six speed gearbox is a gem but you're not going to get ANY real performance increase without a LOT of work and most importantly an understanding of how engines work.
{Agreed: anyone looking to a V7 for performance has had two too many puffs on the arthritis medicine}
~ still it is a lovely machine for puttering about and enjoying but if you are chasing adrenaline spend the money on a Shiver
Pete
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Mistral build a good pipe, the Mistral Hi-Pipe is without a doubt the best available aftermarket can for the 8V Griso, as long as the dB killer is left in and it's mapped appropriately. I don't doubt that their aftermarket offerings will be of similar quality BUT chances are with the Nuovo Smallblocks a lot more thought was given to making them aesthetically pleasing rather than thinking about how they would actually affect performance. With dB killers in and a closed loop map the ECU will at least attempt to trim. Turn the Lamda off though and you are at the mercy of the map. If the map has been built by someone who thinks that all modern engines are forced to run lean by the evil gubmint and all you have to do to release the inner demon is throw more fuel at the engine you're on a hiding to nothing.
Pete
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BUT chances are with the Nuovo Smallblocks a lot more thought was given to making them aesthetically pleasing rather than thinking about how they would actually affect performance.{LOL ~ come on... no business would intentionally build for aesthetics only... would they?} With dB killers in and a closed loop map the ECU will at least attempt to trim. Turn the Lamda off though and you are at the mercy of the map.{Can't! it is a MUIG3...you can look but you can't touch} If the map has been built by someone who thinks that all modern engines are forced to run lean by the evil gubmint and all you have to do to rele ase the inner demon is throw more fuel at the engine you're on a hiding to nothing.
{may I explain 'hiding' to our non Commonwealth speakers? ~ Thinking back to stealing the coils off my brother's triumph because he was a dickhead... and getting caught.}
Pete
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While I'm not sure I think Rexxer Proffessional will allow access to the MUI 3 mapping. Not sure though. Still needs someone who knows what they're doing to build a decent map.
Pete
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Rexxer does allow access to the MUI 3 (single throttle body) mapping. My bike has a revised map and runs open loop. I have plugged the lambda holes! Dave Lillard (Rexxer distributor for the US) has developed maps for the V7 and provides same to a well known seller of V7 upgrades. If you get a remapped MUI 3 it came from Dave.
Peter Y.
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I wonder if he switches to the longer exhaust from the shorty that might improve his high speed performance? I think he was planning to make the switch simply because of the loud factor. I'll post an update if I get a chance to test. Pete and Jim B. have saved me money, time and frustration by keeping my V7 mostly stock or at least with MG designed parts (Arrow cans).
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The relationship between exhaust pipe length and diameter, cam and intake system is quite complicated and interwoven. Change one and you may have modify the others. Some engines don't care, my experience on old Triumph 650/750's is 38 inch long open pipes increase mid range power and might cause a slight loss at top end. Running just the head pipes with no mufflers on my 1000 Guzzi increased power slightly all through the RPM ranges. A stock Harley with open drag pipes will suffer some reversion unless the tuned properly...My 97 Buell with the stock two into one pipe responds well to a free flow muffler.. Modern fuel injected engines generally less tolerant of exhaust changes...
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Ahh... What you don't know won't kill ya'. :wink:
Your last statement speaks volumes in naivety. That's such an overused under-thought expression. Grin I'll except, but truth I know better. :boozing:
Truth is, you *think* you know better. :cheesy: :boozing: I know of no high mileage 4 valve Larios. None. Nada. Zip. The highest mileage one I know of is 17K miles. He's owned it from new, and says he has religiously observed a 7000 rpm limit. Believe me, I've talked to a *lot* of Lario and x Lario guys over the last year or so. Will your quite expensive engine pass the test of time? Seriously, nobody knows. DLC is implicated in the big block 4V valve train failures. Megacycle quit building Lario cams for a reason. All I'm saying is the jury is still out on the four valve small block.
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Truth is, you *think* you know better. :cheesy: :boozing: I know of no high mileage 4 valve Larios. None. Nada. Zip. The highest mileage one I know of is 17K miles. He's owned it from new, and says he has religiously observed a 7000 rpm limit. Believe me, I've talked to a *lot* of Lario and x Lario guys over the last year or so. Will your quite expensive engine pass the test of time? Seriously, nobody knows. DLC is implicated in the big block 4V valve train failures. Megacycle quit building Lario cams for a reason. All I'm saying is the jury is still out on the four valve small block.
I own an original Lario that had 19K on it without mods when I bought it. Truth is nobody knows the secret recipe and I don't claim to know anymore than anyone else, but I do think it's more than a cam or springs. My gut tells me you need quality pieces EVERYWHERE. All it takes is one to fail since it's a chain. I've NEVER heard of any owner actually fitting all new high quality parts in a lario head. So... while we talk to these folks with low miles and exploded heads, has anyone ever completely gone through and fitted quality parts instead of just a cam or springs? I'll say it again... Guzzi stock valves suck (to put it bluntly) and Ed said he wouldn't even consider the Chinese knockoffs. I sent him those Chinese valves to look at. Why do people keep playing with fire? If mine fails then I will be the first to say quality bits didn't work, darn. We should give it a fair shake anyhow and I honestly feel people have failed this engine.
p.s. I wouldn't build cams for a bike I knew people would stick cheap parts in either (and rev the shite out of).
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Thanks Chuckie . I have many failings KD , naivete is NOT one of them :laugh:
Dusty
What Chuck said has nothing to do with the naivety I mentioned. It has nothing to do with the Lario but a statement you made.
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Back in the day when I was working on the smallblock 4V's and they were new, (This was in the UK many, many years ago!) I never saw a cam or tappet failure. Not one. What they did do was shed valve heads like confetti! Usually exhausts but sometimes inlets. It was this that made me label them as grenades. There was one brand new V75 slid by the shop I worked at in London that didn't even make it to Bristol, about 120 miles away, before it shed a valve head!
Whatever the underlying cause they were really awful which was a shame because they are small and light and fun to fling about.
Pete
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Hi I'm the guy with the v7 racer that has Guzzi techs products on which was referred to in this post. First off I'm 100 percent happy with everything I have bought from Todd. Everything I bought was for looks and sound and also performance. I wanted it loud so it doesn't sound like a moped. It runs great I have not noticed the issue of the flat spot on top end which was mentioned. The air box mod was just a ring for the filter instead of the plastic cover. I like the ecu remap and think it runs great and pulls hard. I would definitely buy everything again.
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Well that's good then.
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Well, I'm also 100% happy with my V7-II Stone, as I was with the V7 Stone that preceded it. Both run great, no flat spots or other fueling problems, pull strong, sound good to my ears. The only difference is that mine are absolutely stock. The V7 did need an ECU software update, but the V7-II didn't. Otherwise, I think Moto Guzzi's engineers did a great job, certainly better than I could have done, and I also suspect better than most or all of the third-party mod "specialists". Think of all the money I've saved by not buying unnecessary mods. To each his/her own, or in text-speak, YMMV. Happy and safe riding.
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Hi I'm the guy with the v7 racer that has Guzzi techs products on which was referred to in this post. First off I'm 100 percent happy with everything I have bought from Todd. Everything I bought was for looks and sound and also performance. I wanted it loud so it doesn't sound like a moped. It runs great I have not noticed the issue of the flat spot on top end which was mentioned. The air box mod was just a ring for the filter instead of the plastic cover. I like the ecu remap and think it runs great and pulls hard. I would definitely buy everything again.
Welcome aboard and enjoy your bike. I have the Todd remap and 2:2 exhaust and I like it, probably not as loud as yours but it does give a nice tone. Can't seem to embed this but here is a quick video I took of what my exhaust sounds like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8zfE8vRJTc
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Hi I'm the guy with the v7 racer that has Guzzi techs products on which was referred to in this post. First off I'm 100 percent happy with everything I have bought from Todd. Everything I bought was for looks and sound and also performance. I wanted it loud so it doesn't sound like a moped. It runs great I have not noticed the issue of the flat spot on top end which was mentioned. The air box mod was just a ring for the filter instead of the plastic cover. I like the ecu remap and think it runs great and pulls hard. I would definitely buy everything again.
Thank you for chiming in and my apologies for getting this whole business started. I'll make that apology in person with a :boozing: next time. You've done some very cool mods to the bike and it was awesome to try it out.
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:tongue:
Well alrighty then , and yes , really don't know anything about Larios , really was just poking a bit of fun . Wasn't trying to start a fight or hurt anyone's feelings . Apologies all around . Having had a close up of Mike Wrenn's creation , it is an amazing device :thumb: However , Chuckie probably knows more about engines than any three of us put together , well , maybe excluding Pete :grin:
Dusty
It's nothing you said about the Lario Dusty, I laugh like everyone else at the pokes at this machine. I don't claim to know Jack about engines, but I do look at things as a whole. To me it simply adds up to an engine is only as strong as its weakest link. The Lario sheds valve heads is a fact as Pete points out. There are lots of theories, but the vast majority (yes, nearly everyone!) puts crap valves back in it. I may agree on strengthening other areas, but this decision makes little sense to me in logic. Frugality may be at play. :tongue:
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If you look at a Lario head casting you'll see there are two things very notable about it. Firstly the lack of finning and secondly if you examine the area of the casting between the inlet and exhaust ports there is comparatively little material there.
It is my belief that the problems this creates are three fold. Firstly, there simply isn't enough material for heat to be conducted away from the combustion chamber and most particularly the exhaust valve seats. This also leads to uneven heat soak back when the valves are seated which will impose further un-necessary strains on the valve material. Thirdly, the stock valves weren't exactly crash hot.
Using better valves and changing the spring arrangement and seat pressure will help but to my mind it's treating the symptom rather than the cause which is simply that there isn't enough material to conduct the heat away and even if it can get away there is insufficient finning to dissipate it.
Just a theory but at least it's based on observation and analysis rather than the scattergun approach used by snaggle toothed crystal ball gazers :grin:
Pete
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Yes, I have noticed that Pete as I've heard you make mention before and I certainly agree this may be an underlying inherent culprit. My feeling is I can't change that, but the things I do have control over I have. Alleviating stress, strengthening wear items, and using better materials is my hope for something that will last. How it's ridden can also be controlled so revving the shite out of it isn't in the playing cards. I've got to believe it will help. Now with the higher compression, bigger valves, more fuel, et al I'm not certain what this will do to the mix.
I've heard the same tired stories with the use of the same tired materials. In every case of failure the same basic materials were used and the so called "fix" for the part that's breaking uses those same poorly manufactured materials to this day.
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Call me naive , but at what RPM are we "revving the shit " out of a Lario ? :laugh:
Dusty
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Call me naive , but at what RPM are we "revving the shit " out of a Lario ? :laugh:
Dusty
Anything over 7k is very unnecessary in my book and what I would consider getting in the danger zone. I probably haven't gone much over 6500 on mine, but its "go power" comes on much sooner and feels big down low. My feeling is the stockers are pretty mundane down low and pretty exciting up top, so this is where many spent their days. No limiter of course, so...
Now this brings us to that statement you made earlier about buying a fast bike instead of modifying an existing one. Maybe you notice my revs are down. :evil:
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Now with the higher compression, bigger valves, more fuel, et al I'm not certain what this will do to the mix.
Me, either, but I have a pretty good idea.. :smiley:
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Me, either, but I have a pretty good idea.. :smiley:
No Chinese valves though Chuck! :rolleyes: :wink:
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KD , wouldn't it have been cheaper to just buy a Ducati ? :grin:
Dusty
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KD , wouldn't it have been cheaper to just buy a Ducati ? :grin:
Dusty
If I was guaranteed the same Guzzi feel to the engine (just more of it), weight, frame characteristics and ergos , shocks, brakes, et al and appearance perhaps. Finding one I can work on as easily probably not. There's just too much going for this bike for the money invested and it wasn't THAT expensive. A Ducati isn't a Guzzi in many ways. That's the catch with buying something else that's faster. :wink:
I didn't do this for more speed either. I did it to build more character I wanted in this engine. I simply felt there was more character to be had. That's why you do custom stuff so you can make something what you want. Worked out that way anyhow. Speed is super silly easy to be had in a bike if you buy one with speed, but to think that that's only what people want is rather naive. :wink:
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If I was guaranteed the same Guzzi feel to the engine (just more of it), weight, frame characteristics and ergos , shocks, brakes, et al and appearance perhaps. Finding one I can work on as easily probably not. There's just too much going for this bike for the money invested and it wasn't THAT expensive. A Ducati isn't a Guzzi in many ways. That's the catch with buying something else that's faster. :wink:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Recently a guy said to me , "Moto Guzzi , kind of a brother to Ducati" . Straitened him out , "No , more like a distant cousin , we don't claim Ducatis at family gatherings" :laugh:
Dusty
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Call me naive , but at what RPM are we "revving the shit " out of a Lario ? :laugh:
Dusty
Redline is 7800. My stock Lario experience.. nothing much happens before 4K.. started to come alive at around 6k, and then there was a nice rush to the redline. :cheesy: Ace Mallot (dealt with a lot of them back in the day) says because they were still really getting it at redline, he's convinced that many blew up just because they were over revved. It's a fun engine to operate, and I agree. They are super easy to over rev. Probably should have a rev limiter on one.
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Redline is 7800. My stock Lario experience.. nothing much happens before 4K.. started to come alive at around 6k, and then there was a nice rush to the redline. :cheesy: Ace Mallot (dealt with a lot of them back in the day) says because they were still really getting it at redline, he's convinced that many blew up just because they were over revved. It's a fun engine to operate, and I agree. They are super easy to over rev. Probably should have a rev limiter on one.
[/quote
I am convinced that running my old /5 at 90 percent of redline is what broke the valve , of course it took 150K miles to do it :evil: :grin:
Dusty
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Redline is 7800. My stock Lario experience.. nothing much happens before 4K.. started to come alive at around 6k, and then there was a nice rush to the redline. :cheesy: Ace Mallot (dealt with a lot of them back in the day) says because they were still really getting it at redline, he's convinced that many blew up just because they were over revved. It's a fun engine to operate, and I agree. They are super easy to over rev. Probably should have a rev limiter on one.
[/quote
I am convinced that running my old /5 at 90 percent of redline is what broke the valve , of course it took 150K miles to do it :evil: :grin:
Dusty
What was that? About 2300? :evil:
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I knew that was coming :laugh: Of course 5500 RPMs was necessary to keep up with all of those fast riding partners on their massively powerful MGs :shocked: :grin:
Dusty
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Tossing this one specifically to Pete and Paul for advice. Reading through this thread convinced me that my expectations of ECU self adjusting to Mistral shorties (baffles-in) was not going to happen. My experience after 2k km from a power-cycled battery confirmed: most of it was good but don't put the hammer down. So I disconnected the battery and put the stock pipes back on. Reset has been less than pleasant so far.
From what I've read:after a re-set take a long ride at a constant throttle. Not sure what a long ride is. Round trip to work and back is 70k. No traffic, three stops each way. Five minutes of stop and go. Have done that tour four times since reset. Pretty close to 300km of travel at 4k rpm.
Bike still can't deal with cracking the throttle open one gear lower than one would normally use for passing.
I'm headed for Skagway this weekend. I have 180km each way to set throttle defaults.
What is the optimal rpm to run at? Anything you care to add before I hit the pouring button?
thank you ... yet again.
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No, staying at a constant throttle means it will trim. Just at that point! You want it to trim throughout the range, so, remembering that it takes a couple of seconds for the dumber than dogshit narrow band sensor to react just ride at all sorts of loads and RPM's in all gears, (The torque tables are different with the different gears.) and give it as much variety as possible. Of its misbehaving at one point? Try and find it and ride in it. It can't trim that area if you don't ride in it.
Pete
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No, staying at a constant throttle means it will trim. Just at that point! You want it to trim throughout the range, so, remembering that it takes a couple of seconds for the dumber than dogshit narrow band sensor to react just ride at all sorts of loads and RPM's in all gears, (The torque tables are different with the different gears.) and give it as much variety as possible. Of its misbehaving at one point? Try and find it and ride in it. It can't trim that area if you don't ride in it.
Pete
That's why we should ask questions. Cool, and thank you. :bow:
It currently loves 4k. Now let's mix it up.... Going to feel silly riding the straight stretch to town in first and second :)
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Just wanted to say I did switch to the longer pipe from the stubby and it does run better since it was reflashed for the long one. But it ran good even with the stubby but I can tell a diffrent with the proper pipe. Looking forward to my riding partner trying it out this way. Very quick and pulls hard with no decipal popping. And sounds like a bike should.
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Just wanted to say I did switch to the longer pipe from the stubby and it does run better since it was reflashed for the long one. But it ran good even with the stubby but I can tell a diffrent with the proper pipe. Looking forward to my riding partner trying it out this way. Very quick and pulls hard with no decipal popping. And sounds like a bike should.
Sounds like a plan! look forward to another "bike swap".
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:grin: better if you actually write something before hitting 'post'....
I've just done a 400km round trip from 2500' to mountain pass to sea level and back. Rode every gear at every conceivable throttle opening. Bike still runs like S--- if I crack the throttle quickly. Doesn't like 2500 rpm in town in any gear. Over fuels off the light.
I'm going to reset one more time. If that doesn't work I'm buying a second ECU and having it flashed before being sent up; unless someone has a suggestion. At highway speeds and with a gentle throttle hand the bike is charming. Try to make it work and it dumps the Cinderella costume.
I have the leads and the software for Guzzidiag. The only active option I see is the throttle stepper. The left cylinder appears to fuel a bit faster than the right and exhaust pipes show different bluing.
Should I look to the valve timing? Should I be checking the joints throughout the exhaust system?
:) Tire pressure? I'll look at every option out there.
Thx in advance for advice.
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Late chime-in... but I have a '13 V7 Stone with Mistrals (not shorties) with removed db killers, BMC filter, and ECU reflash via Rexxer/PPR map. At over just 7500 miles now, my bike easily pulls strong to over 100mph and with very little decel popping. I'd love to experience an A/B comparison with Guzzitechs mods as well. I opted not to go with GT's updates primarily due to cost. But I don't feel as if I'm as a huge disadvantage with my selected updates, especially after reading the OP's feedback.
Next update is another go at my forks. Andreani kit on it's way.
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People like Ed Milich have spent years doing ongoing development work on the smallblocks and while porting may give some benefits it will be re-camming and valvetrain changes that will be paying the highest dividends.
People have been trying to, claiming and failing to get radical increases in performance for all forty of those years and their efforts to get cheap horsepower out of the engine has always borne the same disappointing results.
Pete
I have one of Ed's ported and over-bored 850cc heron head "masterpieces" in a Nevada and the thing flies like no smallblock. It would eat a Lario.
And yes, I know this is an old thread but if any Lario owner wants to run against me I am happy to provide a spare set of valves I have back in Australia if he (or she) can beat me up to 100mph. ;-)
Oh, I just noticed the words "cheap horsepower." Whoever said horsepower was cheap?
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I have a lot of respect for Ed and what he has achieved but like the 8V getting a lot more power out of a smallblock heron header is very difficult. Both designs are limited by the laws of physics. Anyone who is claiming to be able to change those is clearly an idiot! The thing is idiots are easily gulled. (Shrug?)
Pete
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I have a lot of respect for Ed and what he has achieved but like the 8V getting a lot more power out of a smallblock heron header is very difficult. Both designs are limited by the laws of physics. Anyone who is claiming to be able to change those is clearly an idiot! The thing is idiots are easily gulled. (Shrug?)
Pete
Pete, define "a lot" please.
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He does good stuff based on engineering principles and understands the laws of physics. That is a 'Fuquetonne', (A universal unit of measurement!) more than some self proclaimed *Experts*.
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He does good stuff based on engineering principles and understands the laws of physics. That is a 'Fuquetonne', (A universal unit of measurement!) more than some self proclaimed *Experts*.
Yes... but I meant "a lot" in regards to gains not Ed's work and your admiration. 🙄
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Hmmm, my stock V7R will do the ton, downhill, given a 90 mph entry speed on sweeper curve. Engine starts complaining above 6500 rpm, its not made for much of that stuff...
Why not just buy a more powerful bike? Seems like trying to make more power out of a Honda twin 175....just ain't there.
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Strange.
My wife and I went on a weekend camping trip this past few days. Non stop rain, 50 km of snot-slick dirt road, and 1000 km of pavement... and on the home stretch the stock V7 Special did 170+ km/h (indicated) on level ground even! So, adjusted for the 4% it seems to be out... about 163 kmh) Is it a crotch rocket? No, but I had wanted a crotch rocket, I'd have bought one.
Where and how are you guys riding that so many of you heap so much derision on this bike? "Cracks the ton downhill"... "only reaches 180 when thrown off a cliff", "mini-bike from Italy", I don't get it.
Ehh, whatever. I don't understand this common trait of V7 owners needing to insult the bike as though a) it's something it's not and B) shitting on what it is.
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Strange.
My wife and I went on a weekend camping trip this past few days. Non stop rain, 50 km of snot-slick dirt road, and 1000 km of pavement... and on the home stretch the stock V7 Special did 170 km/h on level ground even! Is it a crotch rocket? No, but I had wanted a crotch rocket, I'd have bought one.
Where and how are you guys riding that so many of you heap so much derision on this bike? "Cracks the ton downhill"... "only reaches 180 when thrown off a cliff", "mini-bike from Italy", I don't get it.
Ehh, whatever. I don't understand this common trait of V7 owners needing to insult the bike as though a) it's something it's not and B) shitting on what it is.
I'm with you, Toecutter. My '16 Stone, and the '13 Stone before it, runs/ran great, no mods needed or wanted, easily powerful enough for me, no stalling/sputtering/hesitating/popping over a combined 24,000 mi. The stock suspension is fine. I have no interest in cracking the century but it gets up to 90 mph pretty fast. Complainers gonna complain.
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Funny this post just popped up again. As it happens I realized yesterday that I owe Todd an online apology. I was doing my usual commute into work, I realized I hadn't "done the ton" all summer. So I had a nice clear stretch tucked in an opened her up. I'm just about ready to hit the ton and all of sudden things start popping and mis-firing and I realize I'm only in 4th gear and hit the rev-limiter.
I take another run this time in 5th and top out at 109. I then recall the experience on my friend's GT V7 and realize I was probably in 4th gear. So yeah, I'm an idiot. Obviously, I don't need a more powerful bike or 6 speeds, I wouldn't remember to shift.
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This isn't about need for hp; it's about tweaking.
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I have a lot of respect for Ed and what he has achieved but like the 8V getting a lot more power out of a smallblock heron header is very difficult. Both designs are limited by the laws of physics. Anyone who is claiming to be able to change those is clearly an idiot! The thing is idiots are easily gulled. (Shrug?)
Pete
I still want "a lot" as seen above defined by Ropers eyes.
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Reading many of the comments made me chuckle. If you want the bike stock... great! If you want to update the bike for aesthetic & aural reasons... great! If you believe your updates improve "performance"... great! Do what you want. It's YOUR motorcycle, YOUR money.
Some here seemingly self-deprecate on the V7's performance, lack thereof, or complete absence of. But it strikes me odd when I just rode my "Italian mini bike with putrid performance" this weekend for 260 miles on beautiful, coastal twisties in the North Bay (California) with my squad of friends on their Ducatis and Aprilia. The Guzzi looked good, sounded good, and performed well as it took turns leading the group. It's 50 hp was not a limiting factor on this ride. We dispatched 260 tight & twisty miles post haste.
Here's the funniest thing I read here so far... " I don't give a rats ass about performance. If I wanted performance I'd own a whole different marque. I enjoy the lines and visceral pleasure of 'motoring'." :thumb:
Happy "motoring" everyone! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
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One thing that no body has mentioned her is the riders weight, that could be easily 80lbs difference!
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Yes... but I meant "a lot" in regards to gains not Ed's work and your admiration. 🙄
Sorry, my misunderstanding. Without major flow work, re-camming, possibly re designing the piston crowns and a lengthy tuning process anything more than a very few percent maximum power increase is going to be possible. With the Herron head you are turning both the incoming and exhausted charges through a very tight 90* bend to enter and exit the combustion chamber and on the 8V the charge transition issues at certain points are horrendous, especially at high load/wide throttle points. That's why the 8V is so bloody thirsty if you thrash it! You waste a lot of charge! If you could miraculously keep it in the cylinder the motor would make 10-15 more HP!
Pete
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Yes Pete, I agree with your assessment w/o major re-working. I'm not certain anyone here that has tweaked a thing or two has been so rude as to say everyone left stock has a smaller pe%^s. Why all the dismissal of someone who decides to pull a couple extra ponies? It's not done at anyone's expense from what I'm reading. Your own insecurities are rearing their head. Yes... a stock bike is just as capable. Now put it back in your pants. :shocked:
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I am reminded of something my old racing friends used to say..." To much Horsepower is still not enough"
Bob
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As far as hoo haw size goes , I'm reminded of something Dick Mann said to a young racer in the pits at the old Tulsa 1/2 Mile . The young racer and his mechanic were discussing engine mods with Mr Mann when Dick asked if the young racer could hold the throttle open all the way around the track . The young racer said no , to which Dick replied , "well young man , when you can do that , then start spending money on your engine" :laugh: I don't believe anyone ever questioned the size of Dick's ...
Dusty
Uhhh, this, I think. :smiley:
Kev, if you are holding back to 6500, you are missing out on what the Lario head is capable of. Just MHO. <shrug>
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Yes, they were.
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Yes, back in the day.
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Yes Pete, I agree with your assessment w/o major re-working. I'm not certain anyone here that has tweaked a thing or two has been so rude as to say everyone left stock has a smaller pe%^s. Why all the dismissal of someone who decides to pull a couple extra ponies? It's not done at anyone's expense from what I'm reading. Your own insecurities are rearing their head. Yes... a stock bike is just as capable. Now put it back in your pants. :shocked:
I can assure you I have no 'insecurities' WRT to engine performance. If people want to spend vast amounts of wonga on miracle tuning bits? Fine, it worries me not a jot! All I'm trying to point out is that a lot of it is Bollox and snake oil.
Despite what people like to insinuate I am not a 'Keep it stock at all costs' advocate. One look at my beater Griso will tell you that! But I do encourage people to spend their money wisely and not to expect engine miracles for pennies!
The simple fact is a bike like a V7 is never going to be a rocket ship, no matter what you do to it. I am a great fan of 'Underpowered' light and middleweights. My 'Touring' bike is a Mana for heavens sakes! What I do encourage people to do is improve the things that need improving rather than just chasing the bragging rights of 'More Power'. The V7's are woefully suspended! You will get far more 'Bang for your buck' by investing in that rather than quixotically tilting at the windmill of more power out of a basic engine design that is limited by manufacturing costs and the laws of physics.
YOMV
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Anson "Campy" Holly, got to be ranked in the top ten flat trackers in his day and went on the hold a National Record for drag racing. Was he as fast as Mann, maybe on a good day.
As for as H.P being needed in racing, watch Smith motor by other riders on the straightaways on mile tracks.
I made a statement my old racing buddies used, nothing more. I don't want to turn this into a toxic thread like what happens to some.
Bob
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Anson "Campy" Holly, got to be ranked in the top ten flat trackers in his day and went on the hold a National Record for drag racing. Was he as fast as Mann, maybe on a good day.
As for as H.P being needed in racing, watch Smith motor by other riders on the straightaways on mile tracks.
I made a statement my old racing buddies used, nothing more. I don't want to turn this into a toxic thread like what happens to some.
Bob
Certainly the WR and KR HD's that Campy raced could have used some more power . Not much available info on your friend , any chance you might give us a bio ? Was the twin engined Triumph T/F bike that shows up in a search his? Looks like he might have been an interesting person to know .
Dusty
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His drag bike was a twin engine Harley, if memory serves me right the motors were side by side but slightly staggered.
Last I heard he was building race motors for dirt track cars here in Louisiana.
Bob
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Was Bobby Winters related to Leroy Winters?
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Was Bobby Winters related to Leroy Winters?
Brothers
Dusty
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Truth is, you *think* you know better.
You could know better, too.
It doesn't take a college education, nor does it take factory training.
If you had a V65/Lario manual, which gives the valve spring pressures for both models you would see:
1) The Lario valve springs individually have a much higher seating and fully open pressure compared to the V65, even though each valve in the 4 valve head is lighter than the valves in the 2 valve head.
2) The higher spring rates, especially when multiplied by 2, are the most likely reason for the camshaft wear
3) The higher spring rates, along with the better breathing head, allow the engine to rev much higher than one would expect
4) The excessively high closing pressure on the valve probably played the biggest part in stretching the valves past their breaking point.
I wrote about this in this forum in 2009, I think, after doing some research and tracking down people who worked on them in their era. The most reasonable results and theories came from Mario of Thunderbikes in WA (Australia). He raced a Lario without blowing it up after fitting Suzuki GN250 valve springs. He had forgotten most of the details of his conversions which he performed on numerous Larios and on the 4 V75 four valvers which the WA importers brought in. However, he did find the spring pressures he had set and gave me the figures.
I managed to find and contact one of the owners of those V75s on the AIGOR list, who said that the conversion was not fool proof, since his had finally failed at a reasonably high mileage. However, when I spoke with him in the mid to late 2000s he still had the bike and had put at least 225,000 km on it. He kept it going by replacing the valves every 60,000km, just to be on the safe side.
:cheesy: :boozing: I know of no high mileage 4 valve Larios. None. Nada. Zip. The highest mileage one I know of is 17K miles. He's owned it from new, and says he has religiously observed a 7000 rpm limit.
Aussie riders tend to ride their bikes much more than their US counterparts. I believe that there were also more Larios sold in Aus than in Usa, hence the higher chance of getting reliable information from Australian sources. Unfortunately it is now hard to find original owners there, but I am sure they exist.
My first Lario had 58,000 unblown km on it when I sold it last year. It had a strange-ish dual valve spring conversion with one of the springs having a progressive rate, which might have been a factory mod. I did not pull the heads.
My second Lario, which prompted me to investigate and try the Suzuki GN250 spring conversion, had blown up (one side) after the owner took it for a ride and hit what he called "a power band" at 5200rpm. After finding ridiculously soft, progressive rate valve springs had been fitted, which looked like one half of the "kit" which had been installed on my unblown Lario, I can understand why it would have valve-bounced at 5200 rpm. The PO told me that he never rode it over 5200, or even near that figure normally, but he had made that mistake on a little test ride near his home..
We rebuilt that engine and sold the Lario running but untested at road speed, last year. It had done over 68,000km - the speedo was no longer working, though.
If we all could only rely on first-hand, personal experience, there would be no male gynaecologists, would there. ;-)
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I have a lot of respect for Ed and what he has achieved but like the 8V getting a lot more power out of a smallblock heron header is very difficult. Both designs are limited by the laws of physics. Anyone who is claiming to be able to change those is clearly an idiot! The thing is idiots are easily gulled. (Shrug?)
Pete
Well, I guess you won't believe dyno results, then?
Ed's 850 conversion, using 85mm pistons from a big block engine (I believe), along with some porting, lifts the rear wheel HP from 36 on a stock Nevada or Breva, to 48.
At least, that's what's on the genuine-looking dyno run sheet that came with the bike.
One possible problem with adding neddies in this way is that it is not easy to change the gearing to suit. Lario primaries would be nice.
The cost of all this work is several hundred dollars, though. ;-)
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And that's just drop in Pistons from a completely different engine using a hemispherical combustion chamber and 90-ish degree included valve angle with a substantial dome. And this into a heron head engine with no refference to deck height?
No. I don't 'Believe it'!
Habeus Corpus! Bring me the body!
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Well, I guess you won't believe dyno results, then?
Ed's 850 conversion, using 85mm pistons from a big block engine (I believe), along with some porting, lifts the rear wheel HP from 36 on a stock Nevada or Breva, to 48.
At least, that's what's on the genuine-looking dyno run sheet that came with the bike.
One possible problem with adding neddies in this way is that it is not easy to change the gearing to suit. Lario primaries would be nice.
The cost of all this work is several hundred dollars, though. ;-)
Ed took my Lario from 38rw to 45rw with no piston change but lots of head work (comp/bigger valves/revised cam) and 36 carbs. Gearing was changed to V65 primary/Lightened rods/flywheel.
I still have my stock Lario next to it with GN250 springs. WAY different beasts. To answer Chuck's question why only to 6500 rpm? Happy zone rush now starts at 4K so no extra pop up there. Power band is extremely even and unending. Biggest takeaway from this experiment is not about hp (outright speed) changes but character changes. I'm not a speed nut and don't bother to crave that need. A little throttle gets you a lot more rush in this case. It feels more massive without having the mass.