Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: jlburgess on June 22, 2015, 02:10:54 PM
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moto-Guzzi-Eldorado-/171829196514?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2801d176e2&item=171829196514
:popcorn:
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Thats crazy, heck I'll sell you mine for 20 and throw in my LeMans.
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His ebay bikes NEVER hit the reserve, then he contacts the highest bidder and sells it to them.
Pretty smart.
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I'm of the opinion that most of his bidders are shills. Of course I have nothing substantial to back that opinion up; however, whenever he puts a bike on ebay the bidding is generally preposterous, and there are other restorers who do at least as good work as cycle garden who don't get more than a small fraction of these bids.
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Whats a 1960 Eldorado Convertible worth these days?
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/1960%20Cadillac%20Eldorado%20Convertible_zps7mktzpwk.jpg) :rolleyes:
$18 - $20 a pound?
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$35k and he's still losing a Grand.
:angel:
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I'm of the opinion that most of his bidders are shills. Of course I have nothing substantial to back that opinion up; however, whenever he puts a bike on ebay the bidding is generally preposterous, and there are other restorers who do at least as good work as cycle garden who don't get more than a small fraction of these bids.
You don't need anything "substantial" to back it up; this isn't a court of law, this is us trying to judge how to spend our money. Experience, hunches, and "I've seen THIS before" work fine.
The more I see of these bikes and these "sales techniques", the more I would never buy one of these at any price. Just too shady.
Lannis
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from 20k up all bidders with 0 history, fake.
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Being a bike restorer or custom builder is similar to being a chef or winemaker or artist. A certain amount of what you have to do is hype yourself. I wouldn't claim that Cycle Garden does any better at restoring Eldo's than anyone else but what he has done is create a reputation for doing that. There are many people that are really good at what they do and are far less successful than others because they lack the skills and/or desire to market themselves.
And while the marketing doesn't add value to the product, it does elevate the status of the bikes overall and does benefit other people who work on them as they can compare their work and prices to an established and very visible company like Cycle Garden.
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Worth what someone will pay I suppose :shocked:
It does leave a bad taste in the mouth seeing the bid history etc. Strictly speaking he can do whatever he wants with his bikes/work and his stuff does sell for astronomical prices.
This kind of hype/shadowy bidder and high price ebay game is why it's so satisfying to buy a decent bike for a fair price, in person with cash and a handshake.
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Dunno , but that is the second ugliest car ever made .
Dusty
I'd take it in a heartbeat
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Dunno , but that is the second ugliest car ever made .
Dusty
C'mon Dusty, I know you want to tell us what the ugliest car ever made was?
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Mark W , how does being a con man make this better for the honest guys ? I would think this type of behavior casts a bad light on the business and those involved . Dunno , just my thoughts .
Dusty
That's my thoughts too. Just because a sucker is born every minute, that doesn't mean the "two to take him" are doing any good.
Lannis
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from 20k up all bidders with 0 history, fake.
Excellent observation. When he contacts the highest real bidder at $20k, they'll think that they're getting a bargain, since it bid to over $35k.
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ebay has wizened up. you cannot have shill bids without having to pay the ebay final value fee, even if you cancel. Now if they use shill bids to get real bidders up higher, then paying the excess final value fee might just be part of doing business. if they do not sell to a real buyer however, they will owe the fees. you cannot just cancel an auction if it has bids anymore...
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Excellent observation. When he contacts the highest real bidder at $20k, they'll think that they're getting a bargain, since it bid to over $35k.
BINGO!
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P.T. Barnum was right, "See the Egress" only $.10, today only.
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I'm of the opinion that most of his bidders are shills. Of course I have nothing substantial to back that opinion up; however, whenever he puts a bike on ebay the bidding is generally preposterous, and there are other restorers who do Much Better work as cycle garden who don't get more than a small fraction of these bids.
FTFY.. :tongue:
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Shills? I don't believe it. I do a fair amount of business with Moe on a wholesale level. Pretty straight guy.
That's one of the best Motors listings I've seen in awhile, and I sell on Ebay for a living. The sale is doing what it's doing because he's SELLING it...
Joe
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Mark W , how does being a con man make this better for the honest guys ? I would think this type of behavior casts a bad light on the business and those involved . Dunno , just my thoughts .
Dusty
First off I don't consider him a con man. To the best of my knowledge he is not misrepresenting anything to anyone and I have no information to indicate it's not a first class restoration.
As far as helping others, when people see the prices being fetched for a restored Eldo, and then see similar quality work from someone else, they are likely to expect to pay more for it.
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First off I don't consider him a con man. To the best of my knowledge he is not misrepresenting anything to anyone and I have no information to indicate it's not a first class restoration.
As far as helping others, when people see the prices being fetched for a restored Eldo, and then see similar quality work from someone else, they are likely to expect to pay more for it.
Like this....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moto-Guzzi-AMBASSADOR-/321789579507?forcerrptr=true&hash=item4aec2750f3&item=321789579507
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I'd take it in a heartbeat
Me too, was a big fan of the 80's TV series Crime Story.
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Me too, was a big fan of the 80's TV series Crime Story.
(http://d1oi7t5trwfj5d.cloudfront.net/4f/083c200fe611e18c76123138165f92/file/z9270693Q,Crime-Story.jpg)
(http://i.usatoday.net/life/_photos/2011/11/18/DVD-Extra-Stylish-cop-show-Crime-Story-2VJRA77-x-large.jpg)
best line of the series: a violent loan shark is killed by the cops after a foot chase in Las Vegas. A bystander walks on to the scene and laughs, "I owed that guy money."
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All them nekkid GuzziGals cannot
be cheap without cost. :wink: Man need a little cheese to keep the doors open.
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(https://www.bikepics.com/pics/2008/09/15/bikepics-1418511-full.jpg)
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ebay has wizened up. you cannot have shill bids without having to pay the ebay final value fee, even if you cancel. Now if they use shill bids to get real bidders up higher, then paying the excess final value fee might just be part of doing business. if they do not sell to a real buyer however, they will owe the fees. you cannot just cancel an auction if it has bids anymore...
I believe ebay motors is fixed-fee.
First off I don't consider him a con man. To the best of my knowledge he is not misrepresenting anything to anyone and I have no information to indicate it's not a first class restoration.
As far as helping others, when people see the prices being fetched for a restored Eldo, and then see similar quality work from someone else, they are likely to expect to pay more for it.
*IF* he's using shills he's a con man by definition. He's misrepresenting the interest in the bike and artificially driving up the price. And yes, the way all his auctions are bid beyond reason by "0" history bidders certainly looks shillish.
Does anyone know anyone who possesses one of their $35k loops?
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Are the handlebars packed with solid gold to lesses vibration?
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Does anyone know anyone who possesses one of their $35k loops?
I don't own one but, have had a Moe bike in my shop. The client says he paid 25K for the bike several years back. He's been trying to sell it, you've probably seen it on Ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-Moto-Guzzi-Eldorado-/281654697990?forcerrptr=true&hash=item4193eda006&item=281654697990&nma=true&si=vrOoFWL%252Bxbp5KqGECWc4V87VxhA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
His auctions ended several times with the reserve made and then the bidder disappears. The issue with these bidders is this, if you look at the list of bidders on that bike, the two highest bidders have a "0" next to their name. These are newly created accounts with no history. They can bid as high as they want and simply not pay. The seller can report them as a "non paying" bidder and have the final value fees waved. There is really nothing Ebay can do about these bidders. They just fire up a new, bogus hotmail email account and a new Ebay account and do it over and over again.
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DANG............$35k+ for a reconditioned police bike? :copcar: That's highway robbery!!.......unless it was formerly ridden by Clint Eastwood. :bow:
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if Moe wanted to use shill bidders to jack up his auction prices, he wouldn't use two bidders with zero transactions in their bid histories. I would suspect that someone who wants to pimp Moe has created the two "zero transaction" bidders to show the world that Moe's reserves are not legit.
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I say good for Moe, I met him at his shop this spring, very hospitable, took the time to show me his shop and the bikes he was working on. He is running a business, it has to make a profit. Moe has put a lot of effort into marketing his business and I think he has been working on the brand for a very long time. I don't understand why anyone has a problem with him getting the highest price he can for his services. Moe is not making any outlandish claims about his restorations, by all accounts he does very, very fine work. I saw two of his restorations up close and personal, they looked excellent. If a customer is willing to pay over $35K for as fully restored bike that's between Moe and the seller. Even at $35K I don't think Moe is getting rich restoring bikes. Figure on 200 hours to restore a machine properly and take a typical shop rate of at least $100/hr. + parts + the donor bike, $35K is not outlandish.
It's easy to criticise someone running a business, much, much harder to keep a business going year after year.
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if Moe wanted to use shill bidders to jack up his auction prices, he wouldn't use two bidders with zero transactions in their bid histories. I would suspect that someone who wants to pimp Moe has created the two "zero transaction" bidders to show the world that Moe's reserves are not legit.
That's some dedicated trolls, since they create new accounts and shill bid diligently and outrageously on EVERY bike he auctions.
(translation --- BS.)
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I say good for Moe, I met him at his shop this spring, very hospitable, took the time to show me his shop and the bikes he was working on. He is running a business, it has to make a profit.
The question is not "is Moe running a business?" or "are Moe's bikes any good?"
The question is "Are the eBay techniques being used by Moe's to sell bikes really ethical?"
"I have to make a profit" is no better than "I vass only following orders". It smells fishy to me, and I'll tell that to anyone who will listen.
Lannis
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I've never met Moe in person, but I've spoken to him a few times over the years and he's always been straight with me. It just seems pretty unlikely that there are two legitimate "zero transactions" bidders on the same $20k+ item. Like him or not, the guy is not stupid. I don't see him being responsible for what seems to be an obvious hoax. Maybe this is the work of the people who bid on the grilled cheese sandwich wiith the image of Jesus.
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The question is not "is Moe running a business?" or "are Moe's bikes any good?"
The question is "Are the eBay techniques being used by Moe's to sell bikes really ethical?"
"I have to make a profit" is no better than "I vass only following orders". It smells fishy to me, and I'll tell that to anyone who will listen.
Lannis
Point taken ... but no one is being forced to buy Moe's bikes, if someone is shelling out that kind of coin I would think thy either have far too much money and/or they want the local cachet of a Cycle Garden Bike. I rode up the Southern California coast in the spring when I visited Moe and Mark Ethridge, there is more money being flashed about that 100 miles south of L.A. than probably anywhere else I have been in the world, you just stop counting Ferrari's and Lambos, I really don't think Moe's market resides anywhere near this site :laugh: Do I think he is being dishonest and/or jacking up the apparent value of his bikes? No, its promotion.
Lets drill down to what is being offered, a 40+ year old bike, not a particularly rare one or a great handler or powerful bike (by the way I love my Eldorado), so why would anyone pay anywhere near that kind of money?? It just comes down to cool, Moe sells cool to the kind of people who believe they can purchase cool, Harley's been doing it for years.
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from 20k up all bidders with 0 history, fake.
Albeit they are only 2 bidders. Not what I would call undisputed evidence. But a little suspicious.
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If Moe has sold bikes to some 'famous' people then others with plenty of cash would buy entry into that club.
Hey Joe, have a look at my classic Guzzi, it was done by Ewan's mates at cyclegarden...
https://twitter.com/mcgregor_ewan/status/201678009982386177
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There is really nothing Ebay can do about these bidders. They just fire up a new, bogus hotmail email account and a new Ebay account and do it over and over again.
I suppose eBay could look at the IP address of these bidders to see if it matches the seller's IP address. If the seller is careless enough to use the same address for the fake bidders, he'd be caught.
I can't think of any good reason someone would create fake accounts to bid up an item, other than the seller bidding up his price. It's not like it's fun to go to all that trouble to make fake bids on another person's auction.
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This type of scam is done all the time. The seller gets several of his friends who would have different IP addresses to pump up the bid and he instructs them when to start and stop bidding. If the seller gets over a certain amount of money for the item, he gives a percentage of the profit to each of his helpers. It's done all the time but people are naive and ignorant of what's really going on. IMO, This specific bike auction is a classic case of this type of scam. Let the buyer beware.
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Whats a 1960 Eldorado Convertible worth these days?
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/1960%20Cadillac%20Eldorado%20Convertible_zps7mktzpwk.jpg) :rolleyes:
$18 - $20 a pound?
A Glorious Detroit Jurassic period piece. :food:
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I must disagree with Dusty.
That slammed (and chopped?) '59 Caddy is beautiful (once that stupid baroque roof is removed).
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So, I've noted that Eldorados listed on eBay by this particular individual are always way more expensive than anyone else's. His listings also tend to have a lot of bidders. I've wondering about this for a while now and think it's fishy.
There is NO WAY that an Eldorado is worth $38000 and still climbing with 46 minutes left. Still, here it is. I noticed that the last 5 bids, which took the Eldo from $20k to $38k, are all by bidders with NO feedback. Also, it's interesting that the bike was not going to meet his stated restoration price of $36k. So, suddenly, the bidding is up.
This is fishy and reeks of shill bidding.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moto-Guzzi-Eldorado-/171829196514?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2801d176e2&item=171829196514
v***m ( 0 ) US $38,100.00 Jun-24-15 04:59:07 PDT
a***t ( 0 ) US $38,000.00 Jun-22-15 09:03:10 PDT
v***m ( 0 ) US $35,000.00 Jun-22-15 09:04:33 PDT
a***t ( 0 ) US $29,000.00 Jun-22-15 09:02:25 PDT
v***m ( 0 ) US $24,000.00 Jun-22-15 09:00:58 PDT
a***e ( 58Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $20,000.00 Jun-20-15 20:15:00 PDT
c***o ( 2518Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $17,777.77 Jun-19-15 17:58:20 PDT
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agreed
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http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=77208.0 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=77208.0)
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This type of scam is regularly ran on Ebay with different products. The seller gets several of his friends who would have different IP addresses to pump up the bid and he instructs them when to start and stop bidding. If the seller gets over a certain amount of money for the item, he gives a percentage of the profit to each of his helpers. It's done all the time but people are naive and ignorant of what's really going on. IMO, This specific bike auction is a classic case of this type of scam. Let the buyer beware.
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The last real bid was for $20,000. The rest are new bidders with 0 feedback commonly known as Shills.
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If seller sells and buyer buys who cares? They both got what they wanted so it's really between them. Put an ad on Craigslist and see how many people you get inquiring and throwing out offers hoping you'll sell that that price.
If he is getting high prices on his bikes, more power to him. Some people have money and are willing to pay higher prices for the value they see in those bikes, I think that is great. He's running a business, not a philanthropy
One of the worst places to price bikes is a forum. When people come here asking what they should list their bikes for I have to laugh, just what are they thinking? Price it high, so what if no one buys it right away, you can always lower the price. At the right price, someone will buy it.
Someone once told me that the peach you can't have is always bitter.
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Your argument falls flat when it comes to shill bidding.
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Isn't it expensive in Ebay fees to do this?
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Isn't it expensive in Ebay fees to do this?
Didn't some one say the max is $750.00 per . So if you can convince folks that a $20k bike is worth $25K in two auctions , that is a $3,500 profit .
Dusty
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Your argument falls flat when it comes to shill bidding.
Not quite. In any bidding process you never know if the seller has shills, pocket buyers or just goof balls bidding just for fun.
If the buyer is willing to pay the final win price, then they determined their own value for the item. If someone keeps bidding up in price past what they think the value to them is, they forgot the buyer beware principle.
Yeah, shills bidding can drive up a price but not beyond what someone is willing to pay for something. If only shills bid, then the top bidder is a shill and reaps that reward if the reserve was met. The seller can set a very high reserve price, one that shills won't reach but then it comes down to the real buyer. No matter how it works out, the buyer can only win based on their own bid and if they get pressured somehow, shame on them.
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http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/mcy/5089102072.html
here's the next candidate up for sale :popcorn:
Those sirens must be really expensive!
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So NP , you are saying that it is OK to intentionally misrepresent the value of something ? Why hell , let me tell you about this Roper tuned Jackal of mine , new rubber , runs great , authentic Pacifico Aerofoil fairing worth at least a grand , Staintune exhaust , 1,800 value, H&B backrest , real Samsonite saddlebags worth at least $600 bucks , new brake pads , new clutch and fresh transmission , will sell at a loss for $6K , don't wait , I have been offered and turned down $5,800.00 .
Down
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Not quite. In any bidding process you never know if the seller has shills, pocket buyers or just goof balls bidding just for fun.
If the buyer is willing to pay the final win price, then they determined their own value for the item. If someone keeps bidding up in price past what they think the value to them is, they forgot the buyer beware principle.
Yeah, shills bidding can drive up a price but not beyond what someone is willing to pay for something. If only shills bid, then the top bidder is a shill and reaps that reward if the reserve was met. The seller can set a very high reserve price, one that shills won't reach but then it comes down to the real buyer. No matter how it works out, the buyer can only win based on their own bid and if they get pressured somehow, shame on them.
So you're saying that a seller can be as dishonest as he wants to be as he's not caught. I submit that this one has been caught. A seller who engages shills is in my opinion the same lying, conning thief as the 419 scammers out of Nigeria. If you think that's OK, then shame on YOU!
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haha that Craigslist ad is locked reply with some kind of picture of soup! what the hell is going on here :violent1:
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Not quite. In any bidding process you never know if the seller has shills, pocket buyers or just goof balls bidding just for fun.
If the buyer is willing to pay the final win price, then they determined their own value for the item. If someone keeps bidding up in price past what they think the value to them is, they forgot the buyer beware principle.
Yeah, shills bidding can drive up a price but not beyond what someone is willing to pay for something. If only shills bid, then the top bidder is a shill and reaps that reward if the reserve was met. The seller can set a very high reserve price, one that shills won't reach but then it comes down to the real buyer. No matter how it works out, the buyer can only win based on their own bid and if they get pressured somehow, shame on them.
Your argument still falls flat.
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I would suggest anyone currently holding police bikes hold out because this could actually drive the prices very high. Look at the Ducati Paul Smart repro bikes now way over msrp. Maybe MG time has come? :bow:
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I would suggest anyone currently holding police bikes hold out because this could actually drive the prices very high. Look at the Ducati Paul Smart repro bikes now way over msrp. Maybe MG time has come? :bow:
Hopefully, but not really. You know how may times I hear a seller with an inflated price say "Moe gets $30K+ for his bikes, so mine at $15K is a steal". Think Jackson Barrett with cars.
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If the buyer is willing to pay the final win price, then they determined their own value for the item. If someone keeps bidding up in price past what they think the value to them is, they forgot the buyer beware principle.
Yep, that's right, if you can SOMEHOW get someone thinking it's worth more by lying, cheating, shilling, or whatever, and the sucker actually BUYS it, then that's good business! What an absolute idiot that guy was, he paid WAY more than it was worth BWAAAHaahahhahah.
Let's see if we can do it again to another dummy! We're a business after all, we have to make a profit, anything we do is really OK as long as we don't hold a gun to the guy's head and rifle his pockets.
Lannis
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You only know what things are really worth when the money changes hands.
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What Rodekyll, Lannis (and a few others) said. This was a scam and the last person who was legitimately involved in it (maybe) was the bidder at $20k. Too many naive people out there along with those who think it's okay to lie, cheat and steal as long as you can get away with it.
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Could be someone is screwing with Moes auction, this shill bidding can be done as an act of vandalism. It happened to me at ebay, and getting help from ebay was next to impossible.
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Could be someone is screwing with Moes auction, this shill bidding can be done as an act of vandalism. It happened to me at ebay, and getting help from ebay was next to impossible.
Hmm , maybe , but why did they proclaim it sold at $38K , and claim that at $35k they were losing money ? Pretty sure an outsider can't alter the text of the ad .
Dusty
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I've just done a merge. This will be the new thread for all of Moe's Cycle Garden Ebay advertising "auctions".
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I've just done a merge. This will be the new thread for all of Moe's Cycle Garden Ebay advertising "auctions".
What , no "Bitch Fest" :grin:
Dusty
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What , no "Bitch Fest" :grin:
Dusty
When he starts auctioning customized SOA-syle Cal 14s, I will change the title! :evil:
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When he starts auctioning customized SOA-syle Cal 14s, I will change the title! :evil:
EEK and DOUBLE EEK !
Dusty
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Hopefully, but not really. You know how may times I hear a seller with an inflated price say "Moe gets $30K+ for his bikes, so mine at $15K is a steal". Think Jackson Barrett with cars.
Yeah, I overheard someone at the Nationals with a so so Eldo for sale say that if it was only in SoCal he could get 12 to 15K for it. :smiley: I didn't disabuse him of his fantasy. I hang out at MGC when I'm out in SoCal, and know what Loops bring. They *are* going up, though. His *might* bring 5-5500 in SoCal.
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Yeah, I overheard someone at the Nationals with a so so Eldo for sale say that if it was only in SoCal he could get 12 to 15K for it. :smiley: I didn't disabuse him of his fantasy. I hang out at MGC when I'm out in SoCal, and know what Loops bring. They *are* going up, though. His *might* bring 5-5500 in SoCal.
The flip side . A guy once offered me $500.00 for my /5 , back before it got quite so tired . When I laughed , he claimed , "well hell , that's what the sell for in California" :rolleyes: I suggested we take a truck and a trailer and make the trip :laugh:
Dusty
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The flip side . A guy once offered me $500.00 for my /5 , back before it got quite so tired . When I laughed , he claimed , "well hell , that's what the sell for in California" :rolleyes: I suggested we take a truck and a trailer and make the trip :laugh:
Dusty
Had a dealer try that on me once.
He had a nice 1970 full size Chevy shortbed pickup for sale, nice truck, I could buy one for about $4000 at the time. He was asking $6000.
He insisted "You could take this truck down to North Carolina, they love these down there, and get $9000 for it easy."
Since he was in the business, I sort of wondered why he didn't make an easy 5 grand by towing it 150 miles south, selling it, and riding home ... Pretty good day's work, that.
One of the reason's that Moe's Cycle Garden's schemes don't set well with any of us is by contrast. We're used to dealing with MPH and Moto Int'l and Rose Farm and Joe Eish and guzzisteve and Charlie Mullendore and guys like that, honest folks who don't shill and scam and use smoke and mirrors and pump-and-dump, but still manage to make a living and make friends in the Guzzi business. This Moe's "skillo wheel" business is RIGHT on the edge of unethical, immoral, and really is unusual in the world of Moto Guzzis.
Lannis
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Lannis , I always laugh when the seller makes claims like that . A friend of mine was just convinced that his 200K mile Diesel PU with a bad paint job was worth $10K because well , some guy told him they were hot in CA. Surprise surprise , when he listed it in CA for $10k , what he got was , why would I pay that much and still have to come and get the damn thing . Round about way of supporting guys selling boats in coastal Alaska for a bit more than what they sell for in , oh say , Nevada . Hmm , did that make any sense , the humidity/stupidity factor may be in play here :grin:
Dusty
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Lannis , I always laugh when the seller makes claims like that . A friend of mine was just convinced that his 200K mile Diesel PU with a bad paint job was worth $10K because well , some guy told him they were hot in CA. Surprise surprise , when he listed it in CA for $10k , what he got was , why would I pay that much and still have to come and get the damn thing . Round about way of supporting guys selling boats in coastal Alaska for a bit more than what they sell for in , oh say , Nevada . Hmm , did that make any sense , the humidity/stupidity factor may be in play here :grin:
Dusty
Location, location, location....just like real estate. :wink:
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Location, location, location....just like real estate. :wink:
So Wayne , are you saying that in AZ a boat has less value than , oh say , a Camel ? :laugh:
Dusty
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So Wayne , are you saying that in AZ a boat has less value than , oh say , a Camel ? :laugh:
Dusty
Variation of boat prices I know nothing about, but we are close to the Colorado river so here it might not be an issue. :undecided: I know our fuel is cheaper than the states around us. :grin:
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Variation of boat prices I know nothing about, but we are close to the Colorado river so here it might not be an issue. :undecided: I know our fuel is cheaper than the states around us. :grin:
Hmm , this begs the question , can Camels swim ? :grin:
Dusty
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Hmm , this begs the question , can Camels swim ? :grin:
Dusty
Don't know, Dusty, never seen a camel in Aridzona. With your name thought maybe you'd know. :tongue: I know the Army used them here back in the 40's.
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'60 model , and if you remove the Baroque roof what's gonna keep the rain out ? :grin: Yeah , my taste in cars , and most things in general , runs in a counter to most American preferences . Women with no makeup and natural hair , notch back instead of fast back Mustangs , '56 Chevies over '57 models , Jackals over blinged out Calis , Mary Ann over Ginger , and early ZZ Top before they became a parody of themselves . Oh , and friends that don't care how , UH , well OK , "strange" I am :grin:
Dusty
nope, it's a '59.
agree with all your examples except for the fastback Mustangs and "blinged out" EV vs Jackal. EV is much better. :grin:
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nope, it's a '59.
agree with all your examples except for the fastback Mustangs and "blinged out" EV vs Jackal. EV is much better. :grin:
EVs are better than Jackals , except when they aren't . (Running that is) :shocked: :evil: :grin:
Dusty
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.......or bashed up falling off the trailer.
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.......or bashed up falling off the trailer.
I wasn't gonna go that far ... :laugh: Dang , self inflicted pain is the worst , huh bud ? :rolleyes:
Dusty
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yeah, but she's as pretty as new now
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Could be someone is screwing with Moes auction, this shill bidding can be done as an act of vandalism. It happened to me at ebay, and getting help from ebay was next to impossible.
If this was the first time it happened I might buy the argument. But it happens all the time and has been happening for years. So either he's got a very dedicated group of organized vandals diligently watching ebay for his auctions, or we've got the worlds most moronic ebay seller or both.
Ebay allows a seller to disqualify any bidder and reject any bid. I can see CG getting hit on vandal-bidding on a $35k bike once. Maybe twice. But by the 5th or 6th time (or maybe the 10th or 12th -- after all he's from California) he'd catch on and delete their bids. All it would take is the most cursory attention to the auction.
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Well, the bike is listed on ebay as "sold", so it'll cost him $125 for some pretty good advertising even though in all likelihood it isn't really sold.
OTOH, I wonder whether he looks at this forum at all, and whether he realizes how reviled his methods are among most Guzzi faithful.
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But by the 5th or 6th time (or maybe the 10th or 12th -- after all he's from California) he'd catch on and delete their bids. All it would take is the most cursory attention to the auction.
I didn't realize he was in Rio Linda...
:grin:
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Well, the bike is listed on ebay as "sold", so it'll cost him $125 for some pretty good advertising even though in all likelihood it isn't really sold.
OTOH, I wonder whether he looks at this forum at all, and whether he realizes how reviled his methods are among most Guzzi faithful.
Fortunately we aren't his target market , most of our celebrities are either too smart or too broke to play his game :laugh:
Dusty
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Well, the bike is listed on ebay as "sold", so it'll cost him $125 for some pretty good advertising even though in all likelihood it isn't really sold.
OTOH, I wonder whether he looks at this forum at all, and whether he realizes how reviled his methods are among most Guzzi faithful.
Why would he care what a red-suspendered Guzzist thinks? He's not selling to anyone here, he's selling to people with more money than sense that want to buy into some marketed "idea".
Lannis
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Well, the bike is listed on ebay as "sold", so it'll cost him $125 for some pretty good advertising even though in all likelihood it isn't really sold.
[snip]
. . . except if he tells ebay he got deadbeat bidders. Then the auction becomes invalid and they don't punch his lunch card. So in practice he can list a bike, get a legit bidder, send in the shills, and then complain that the "0" bidders queered the sale. Ebay waives the fees and the advertising happens for free. A buzz is created on WG and the hits on his name and website go up -- another win for his e-business.
Then he contacts the high legit bidder and tells him the sale fell through -- does he want the bike for a slightly higher price than the bid, on account of the rube DID get outbid by 2x, and doesn't that mean the bike is worth more than he thought? Really, rube, considering what the piece bid up to, $3k more than your high bid is a very good deal . . . a discount, if you think about it just right. :wink: :wink: :wink:
So in this scenario the $35k bike got legitimately bid up to $20k, CG got the buyer lined up for free, and then conned him out of an additional $3k. Ebay hosted the scam and got nothing.
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so the real value is 8k$?
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so the real value is 8k$?
A straight auction, with no shills, smoke, mirrors, and misdirection, would give you the "real value". Haven't seen that, though ....
Lannis
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Rodekyll nailed it directly on the head with his last post in this thread. That's the way the scam works.
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Rodekyll nailed it directly on the head with his last post in this thread. That's the way the scam works.
As I mentioned in my previous post, I have it on good info that's EXACTLY what happens. Sells it to the highest legit bidder. I'd rather buy one from Charlie, Jim or Joe.
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World Motorcycles restores/rebuilds sandcast Honda CB750s.
This is their price, no bidding involved:
The price for one of these motorcycles is $39,500.00 (SUMMER/2015 Special) FOB San Francisco
The CB750 is a 40+ year old bike that was not fast or rare.
Thought about getting one many years ago when the price was about 25K.
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As I mentioned in my previous post, I have it on good info that's EXACTLY what happens. Sells it to the highest legit bidder. I'd rather buy one from Charlie, Jim or Joe.
Any day. They'll be done right on the inside, too. :evil:
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There were something like 7,000 sandcast CB 750s built , and many of them were crashed , blown up and scrapped , or turned into choppers . They are considered by many to be the first affordable superbike , and changed the MC world .
Dusty
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Any day. They'll be done right on the inside, too. :evil:
[/quote
Been waiting for someone to mention that salient point :evil: Better you than me Chuckie :grin:
Dusty
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World Motorcycles restores/rebuilds sandcast Honda CB750s.
This is their price, no bidding involved:
The price for one of these motorcycles is $39,500.00 (SUMMER/2015 Special) FOB San Francisco
The CB750 is a 40+ year old bike that was not fast or rare.
Thought about getting one many years ago when the price was about 25K.
Nothing in the world wrong with pricing them like that .... Honest and upfront. People have got lots of money these days (regardless of talk of "The Economy"), and if they want to spend it on the bike of their teenage dreams, so be it.
First road ride I ever took with anyone else was me on my new Yamaha 200 twin, and a guy on a sandcast CB750. In the day, it was a magnificent bike, smooth, fast, disk brakes - there wasn't anything like it. We rode through the country, and we both smelled castor oil and stopped and traced it to a local flat-track with Triumphs and BSAs zooming around it ... a really great day. Might be worth $40,000 to the right guy to bring back the memories ....
Lannis
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If that is how it is working, he gets to tell Ebay he got deadbeat bidders once, maybe twice. Shortsighted to go through all that to sell one bike; he also risks being taken to the cleaners for fraud.
People paid hundreds of thousands for a computer built by Steve Jobs. It isn't worth spit but it is to someone. Others paid more than that for fake art. Then there are people who pay big money for baseball cards that came in a gum wrapper that cost a nickle. Play the game accept the risk.
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Fraud is hard to prove , and I don't think E bay has a police dept .
Dusty
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Fraud is hard to prove , and I don't think E bay has a police dept .
Dusty
If Ebay wants you, money talks and they have plenty. Besides, all it takes is a disgruntled buyer and things move along pretty quickly to find those involved. Since he will have violated their TOS, they can effectively keep him from listing other bikes, there is personal and financial information he must provide to list the bike.
But all this talk is already putting some nails into someone's reputation and so far, no one has any proof. There is talk about knowledge but then get it out in the open, that would be the right thing to do.
I do not know the seller but he has an Ebay store going and seems to sell stuff. Why trash him with innuendo, he isn't hurting anyone and if someone has proof, why not deal with that?
So far, it doesn't look like people dealing with him are unhappy.
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If that is how it is working, he gets to tell Ebay he got deadbeat bidders once, maybe twice. Shortsighted to go through all that to sell one bike; he also risks being taken to the cleaners for fraud.
People paid hundreds of thousands for a computer built by Steve Jobs. It isn't worth spit but it is to someone. Others paid more than that for fake art. Then there are people who pay big money for baseball cards that came in a gum wrapper that cost a nickle. Play the game accept the risk.
He can claim deadbeat bidders infinitely. It would be true and he could prove it. The rest of the comment has no bearing on the topic. How does any of that justify this seller employing shills to inflate the bids in his auctions? How many shills in the apple computer sale? is selling counterfeits not fraud? Only if you're caught, you say? How do collectable baseball cards compare to a police model guzzi?
The way you can prove to yourself that you are wrong is to contact ebay and ask them how many shills you're allowed to bid up your auctions. I say it's none, and that ebay will tell you it's a criminal act. you of course won't take the challenge.
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He can claim deadbeat bidders infinitely. It would be true and he could prove it. The rest of the comment has no bearing on the topic. How does any of that justify this seller employing shills to inflate the bids in his auctions? How many shills in the apple computer sale? is selling counterfeits not fraud? Only if you're caught, you say? How do collectable baseball cards compare to a police model guzzi?
The way you can prove to yourself that you are wrong is to contact ebay and ask them how many shills you're allowed to bid up your auctions. I say it's none, and that ebay will tell you it's a criminal act. you of course won't take the challenge.
I'm not the one claiming the seller is using shills, that would be someone else. I do say if that if someone is going to claim he is using shills, then put out the info because otherwise that would be an unjustified and rather serious allegation.
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How many bidders with zero feedback does it take to create a pattern ?
Dusty
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If the buyer becomes upset because they overpaid for something on Ebay, they've joined the club of millions
Have a :boozing: and listen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKtlK7sn0JQ
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I'm not the one claiming the seller is using shills, that would be someone else. I do say if that if someone is going to claim he is using shills, then put out the info because otherwise that would be an unjustified and rather serious allegation.
The information has been given.
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Why would he care what a red-suspendered Guzzist thinks? He's not selling to anyone here, he's selling to people with more money than sense that want to buy into some marketed "idea".
Lannis
Exactly
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The last real bid was for $20,000. The rest are new bidders with 0 feedback commonly known as Shills.
I find the real buyers a little weird, too, though. I mean, apparently some previous experience with ebay, and here he is putting in a $20000 bid, days before the auction closes? That's sort of foolish. He's not the only one, either, there were some other early big bids.
If there are that many guys with poor ebay skills willing to pay that kind of big bucks, wouldn't you surmise that there were more who watched the auction spiral out of reach, but might have bid say $30K at the end if it still hadn't gotten there? Maybe he'd do as well without the alleged shenanigans?
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I've bought quite a few bikes and other items off Ebay and I too have detected how some sellers game the system for their own purposes. As outlined here, there are many ways to run-up the bids on Ebay. One must be careful.
Several years ago, a friend was bidding on a late-model Guzzi. Although he entered a bid above what he really wanted to pay, he was outbid by another with a fantastically high bid. A day later, he was contacted by the seller and talked to him on the phone. The guy asked my friend if he still wanted the Guzzi and told him that he could have it at his last bid price.
My friend was surprised and said "But, somebody else outbid me by a wide margin." The guy replied, "Oh no, that was just my son doing that so it doesn't count and you can have the bike for your last bid."
My friend set him straight and hung up the phone.
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This is hearsay. I know two guys that used to work there. Both told me the same story. I won't post it on an internet forum.. that could be construed as slander. I'll just say that I would much rather have a bike built by several who post here.
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Around five weeks ago, I was looking for some PIAA or equivalent, 35watt driving lights to install on my V7 Classic. I found several sites selling the identical lights that included a generic wiring kit. According to the description, they were brand new (in the package) and came from a defunct Polaris dealer. After doing some snooping around the internet, I found that each of the offerings was from the same seller; I had no problem with this because that's just good marketing to sell as many widgets as you possibly can.
Then, I went to his Ebay site where he had them at a "buy it now" for around $165 including free shipping and another listing (also under his same username) selling the kit at auction with a beginning bid of $100.
I then checked to see how many times this same auction had been listed by him with no buyers and found that the answer was "three". So, I bid $101. Within a few hours, I was notified by Ebay that I had been outbid. Since the item had been listed, three times before with no takers, I smelled a "shill bid" auction so I didn't raise my offer. I kept watching the auction and no one else bid and when it ended, what I expected to happen, DID HAPPEN. Within an hour of the auction ending, I received a "second chance offer" with a message from the seller that the high bidder had not performed and I could have the light kit for my bid of $101, including shipping. I took the deal because this was a good price for genuine PIAA lights alone and it included the wiring kit which turned out to be of good quality. (I only had to shorten several wires to make it fit better). I also inspected the lights thoroughly to ensure that they were genuine PIAA lights, and they were.
I got a good deal but if I had taken the bait, this seller definitely had a shill account (or other accomplice) who was attempting to drive up the price. Let the buyer beware.
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This is hearsay. I know two guys that used to work there. Both told me the same story. I won't post it on an internet forum.. that could be construed as slander. I'll just say that I would much rather have a bike built by several who post here.
I'd believe it. And I'll bet Matthew 23:27 comes to mind in relation to the situation!
Lannis
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:popcorn:
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World Motorcycles restores/rebuilds sandcast Honda CB750s.
This is their price, no bidding involved:
The price for one of these motorcycles is $39,500.00 (SUMMER/2015 Special) FOB San Francisco
The CB750 is a 40+ year old bike that was not fast or rare.
Thought about getting one many years ago when the price was about 25K.
750SOHC nut here.... There weren't many of the Sandcast bikes made, and many of them had the cases destroyed. The legitimate, complete "sandcast" bikes are worth a ton of cash to the right buyer. Hell, some of the less available, and oft-damaged parts from the later models are worth stupid money. Want to buy a "unicorn horn" triple clamp off me?
As for fast... not by today's standards. But my '72 will crack the ton, quickly and easily.
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There's a similar thread on the Yahoo Loopframe board. Moe occassionally surfaces there. Here's his response copied word for word...
Thanks Greg et al,
I received several very negative emails during the Auction from Guzzist stating I was pumping up this Auction for Publicity,... the Laughing stock of the Guzzi community,.... etc.
Yes I had 2 No feedback bidders bid up my Auction on a Consignment restored Eldorado on ebay last week. I talked with paypal yesterday, and they said that most likely this was a scam. The high bidder stated he would only pay total amount through paypal, which is Dangerous, as most paypal accounts are tied to a credit card which could be stolen. Here is what the high bidder wrote to me:
Dear moeguzzi,
Hello, Moe Moore: head honcho
Thanks for your email, I really appreciate it. I am in love with the striking beauty of this bike. I am a Marine Biologist and at the moment I am in the Cayman Islands, I am buying the Moto Guzzi as a gift for my dad, I want to make it a surprise gift for him, so he won't know anything about the Moto Guzzi until my shipping agent delivers it to him. I hope you understand that I can only pay total amount through PayPal. So please kindly get back to me so i can proceed with the payment and after I make the payment, I will send my pick up agent to come around to pick the Moto Guzzi up immediately.
Looking forward to hearing from you soon
Thanks
Delv
The reason I did not cancel the Zero feedback high bids during the auction, is that I have sold several bikes in the last few years to Zero feedback bidders. Now I am in the process of recovering the ebay fees. That is where I am at today, cleaning up this mess. Thanks for your time, Moe.
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I emailed him with 45 minutes left in the auction: "I notice that last 5 bidders have no feedback but have taken the auction from $20k to $38 (just past what you stated the restoration cost to be)?This bidding looks suspicious."
His response was "Yes, I hope they are real bidders! Otherwise I have to hassle with ebay to get the final value fees back.
It could be 2 14 year old kids trying to screw up the Auction, but it could be 2 Arabs from Kuwait fighting over it!
Who knows! I should know more tomorrow.
Moe."
Seems he has a problem with 0 feedback bidders running up the auction at the end.
My initial remark about shill bidding still stands.
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I never get emotionally involved in bidding on fleabay. I will make a max bid, and if it is exceeded, I will not increase it. I have only been contacted once by a seller, and ended up not buying the item because I thought the price was run up on purpose.
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There's a similar thread on the Yahoo Loopframe board. Moe occassionally surfaces there. Here's his response copied word for word...
Thanks Greg et al,
I received several very negative emails during the Auction from Guzzist stating I was pumping up this Auction for Publicity,... the Laughing stock of the Guzzi community,.... etc.
Yes I had 2 No feedback bidders bid up my Auction on a Consignment restored Eldorado on ebay last week. I talked with paypal yesterday, and they said that most likely this was a scam. The high bidder stated he would only pay total amount through paypal, which is Dangerous, as most paypal accounts are tied to a credit card which could be stolen. Here is what the high bidder wrote to me:
Dear moeguzzi,
Hello, Moe Moore: head honcho
Thanks for your email, I really appreciate it. I am in love with the striking beauty of this bike. I am a Marine Biologist and at the moment I am in the Cayman Islands, I am buying the Moto Guzzi as a gift for my dad, I want to make it a surprise gift for him, so he won't know anything about the Moto Guzzi until my shipping agent delivers it to him. I hope you understand that I can only pay total amount through PayPal. So please kindly get back to me so i can proceed with the payment and after I make the payment, I will send my pick up agent to come around to pick the Moto Guzzi up immediately.
Looking forward to hearing from you soon
Thanks
Delv
The reason I did not cancel the Zero feedback high bids during the auction, is that I have sold several bikes in the last few years to Zero feedback bidders. Now I am in the process of recovering the ebay fees. That is where I am at today, cleaning up this mess. Thanks for your time, Moe.
Yeah, well, I'm still very skeptical. This has happened fairly regulalrly with their Ebay ads for some time now.
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I never get emotionally involved in bidding on fleabay. I will make a max bid, and if it is exceeded, I will not increase it. I have only been contacted once by a seller, and ended up not buying the item because I thought the price was run up on purpose.
Same here. I set my maximum price and hold to it. Ebay will auto-bid for me and if I get overbid, well there's always another opportunity later down the road. Never been contacted by a seller with a last-chance offer.
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Same here. I set my maximum price and hold to it. Ebay will auto-bid for me and if I get overbid, well there's always another opportunity later down the road.
That's cool - if only everyone were like you, the auto-bid system would work fine.
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Same here. I set my maximum price and hold to it. Ebay will auto-bid for me and if I get overbid, well there's always another opportunity later down the road. Never been contacted by a seller with a last-chance offer.
Same thing I do. Never quite understood why people chase stuff with low bids and "sniping". Just say what you'll give and let 'er rip.
Lannis
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Are the handlebars packed with solid gold to lesses vibration?
The siren is solid gold!! Notice he always includes a siren in these restorations.
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Same thing I do. Never quite understood why people chase stuff with low bids and "sniping". Just say what you'll give and let 'er rip.
I've probably posted this before, but when I bought my first eBay item a long time ago, it was very clear that if I had not placed any bid until a few seconds before the end, I would have gotten it cheaper. Just seeing a higher bid will make some people reconsider their "maximum". Yes, if everyone would place his maximum and leave it alone, it would work fine, but that's not what happens most of the time.
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Same here. I set my maximum price and hold to it. Ebay will auto-bid for me and if I get overbid, well there's always another opportunity later down the road. Never been contacted by a seller with a last-chance offer.
On big ticket items I've done quite well by being the second highest bidder or the highest "real" bidder. I've bought two cars and a nice watch that way. On my Jeep the seller got locked up with a deadbeat for a while and by the time he contacted me with the second chance he was totally frustrated. I feel I got a really nice deal on that one.
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Yes, if everyone would place his maximum and leave it alone, it would work fine, but that's not what happens most of the time.
Right. You can look at bid histories and see this very clearly. Some kinds of stuff may not attract that kind of auction fool - for example new stuff, where it's kind of an auction version of Amazon, maybe no one's going to get sucked in to a bidding war over a set of tires or something. But the guys who put in big bids on this Eldo with days to go? A head scratcher.
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No surprise here, but, there is a selling on ebay trying to capitalize on Moe's success by using "moe" in his username,
moecraftmarinefrank .
He currently has a police guzzi listed.
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So when "moecraftmarinefrank" registered with eBay back in 2011, he chose a name with "moe" in it just so he could cash in on Cycle Garden's notoriety even though he wouldn't even have the Eldo to sell until Aug. 2015?
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To paraphrase a pop song from the 80s
No Moe , No Moe No Moe , No Moe No Moe (slight fade) No Moe , No Moe
Dusty
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So when "moecraftmarinefrank" registered with eBay back in 2011, he chose a name with "moe" in it just so he could cash in on Cycle Garden's notoriety even though he wouldn't even have the Eldo to sell until Aug. 2015?
Good research, Charlie -- I didn't look that far into it.
You can change your username on ebay. Does that reset the register date? Gotta wonder.