Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: RaananC on June 30, 2015, 01:05:15 AM
-
Hi All
Does anyone know of an engine kit to bump-up the new V7's power above the official 48 hp?
Thanks
-
What for?
-
Yes! It's very easy. Trade it in on a more powerful motorbike!
-
What for?
To get a bit more, say around 60 hp.
-
:popcorn:
-
Yes! It's very easy. Trade it in on a more powerful motorbike!
I like the racer look but I would like to get more juice out of it.
-
This idiotic fantasy gets trotted out every couple of months. It can't happen. If you want to understand why go back to school and learn some physics!
-
This idiotic fantasy gets trotted out every couple of months. It can't happen. If you want to understand why go back to school and learn some physics!
Sorry, haven't visited here over a year but I think if Guzzi were able to get about 45 hp from the V50 monza and 60 from the V65 lario they can surely get a bit more from the V7.
-
OK! How? Wishing?
-
Perhaps a bigger motor...
-
Then it wouldn't be a bloody V7 would it :violent1: :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
-
I've owned 23 bikes over the years from 65cc to 1300cc and for me the little V7 has to be the best fun bike I've owned.
I just love ridding the thing more than any R1 or sports bike I've had.
OK its not that powerful but I can use all its power if I want without worrying about going to jail.
If you have aftermarket pipes get your bike flashed with a new map and feel the difference.
I have shorter mufflers with rexxer flash and my bike goes a lot better! Does it have more HP?
I can't say for sure but it feels like it does plus my bike pulls a lot smoother from off idle all the way through the rev range like it should have from off the show room floor.
These bike run lean in closed loop and the bike feels flat in its power delivery below 4000 rpm but once flashed it pulls heaps better everywhere.
-
I've owned 23 bikes over the years from 65cc to 1300cc and for me the little V7 has to be the best fun bike I've owned.
I just love ridding the thing more than any R1 or sports bike I've had.
OK its not that powerful but I can use all its power if I want without worrying about going to jail.
If you have aftermarket pipes get your bike flashed with a new map and feel the difference.
I have shorter mufflers with rexxer flash and my bike goes a lot better! Does it have more HP?
I can't say for sure but it feels like it does plus my bike pulls a lot smoother from off idle all the way through the rev range like it should have from off the show room floor.
These bike run lean in closed loop and the bike feels flat in its power delivery below 4000 rpm but once flashed it pulls heaps better everywhere.
Thanks for the info.
Best
-
Performance increases are seriously limited because of the Heron head design.
-
All those things Agro! observes also apply to my V7 Stone. What have I done? I have run it for 11000 kilometres now. Feels a lot stronger now.
In fact, the way the small Guzzi delivers its power is one main reason why this bike is so much fun. Of course a Monster 1200 feels stronger in a way that when I switched back to my bike I had to look whether there are still two cylinders attached. But when I rode a V-Strom 1000 (100 hp) for two days I wondered where the horsepowers were hidden. And no, it was not switched into the "rain" - mode.
-
Geez Pete, this is new to the OP. A little patience man.
Sorry, haven't visited here over a year but I think if Guzzi were able to get about 45 hp from the V50 monza and 60 from the V65 lario they can surely get a bit more from the V7.
Those are crankshaft figures, yes? So the comparative number on the current V7 is 50 hp.
Sure the Lario made more, but with 4V heads no?
You can wish all day for the factory to do something, but that doesn't help.
Personally I find it fine as is, and prefer it to the 80 hp (crank) Duc it's parked next to, but I can understand that a little more power wouldn't hurt the fun factor.
Doesn't Guzzi Power have a kit?
And isn't Guzzitech talking about one?
But I suspect both would be a lot of work and money for not much more power.
Certainly a pipe and reflash has been shown to do very little to peak numbers.
-
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=77200.0
-
4-valve heads:
A few horses= $$$$$
Grin factor up top= priceless
-
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=77200.0
Yes I've read this post and it doesn't make any sense that the rider didn't notice any difference between stock and flashed bike?
I've had two friends try my bike after flash and they said there was a definite improvement over stock.
One friend was gone so long I started to worry but he came back with a big grin and nodding his head yes! :thumb:
-
To get a bit more, say around 60 hp.
What, you want to go faster than 110 mph, which this bike will do with its stock engine?
-
No problem. All you have to do is find you a drone engine and stick it in there.. :smiley: :boozing:
-
No problem. All you have to do is find you a drone engine and stick it in there.. :smiley: :boozing:
That's not a problem at all, this I actually can do. :bow:
-
Yes I've read this post and it doesn't make any sense that the rider didn't notice any difference between stock and flashed bike?
I've had two friends try my bike after flash and they said there was a definite improvement over stock.
One friend was gone so long I started to worry but he came back with a big grin and nodding his head yes! :thumb:
I dunno, personally I'm off the opinion that many people who spend money on "upgrades" often have optimistic butt dynos.
And unless your buddies rode your bike extensively back-to-back before and after the reflash, I would expect their butt dynos to be even more inaccurate.
-
I dunno, personally I'm off the opinion that many people who spend money on "upgrades" often have optimistic butt dynos.
And unless your buddies rode your bike extensively back-to-back before and after the reflash, I would expect their butt dynos to be even more inaccurate.
They both ride stock V7s..
-
I don't doubt for a moment that the MUIG3 can be made to work better than it does from the factory. Experience has told us that once you have the ability and understanding of the adjustable protocols in the management system great things can be done.
The bottom line though is you won't get much, if any, more power. To think you can is an excercise in idiocy and I refuse to resile from my position that if you want to make anything other than fantastical claims or aspirations in the public domain you need to be able to back them up with empirical evidence.
Wanting a bike that 'Looks like a V7 but has more power' is an absurd proposition. Nobody is looking at the vehicle holistically. At the end of the day the current bikes are the final itteration of a design virtually unchanged in its basics since 1978. When you buy a V7 in 'Performance' terms you are buying a 1970's/80's motorbike whose performance was modest even back then.
Is this a bad thing? No! Not at all! But it is what it is and no amount of fantasy or wishing will change that.
If you like that? Fine, I do too, (Although I prefer the more advanced nature of the Nuovo Big Blocks.) but the performance of the smallblock engine is limited, severely, by its architecture.
If it isn't what you want? For heavens sakes buy something else!
-
They both ride stock V7s..
Well that helps, but are all 3 the same year/model? How about state of tune/maintenance? How about number of miles?
I dunno, maybe a reflash can help with some power delivery in the low or midrange on these things, but dynos don't generally lie and there's not much to be had at peak.
And I still think butt dynos are notoriously inaccurate.
-
All i know is my bike goes better than before the flash.
I was more than happy with the stock bike but I wanted the nice sound of aftermarket pipes
and I was worried the bike was running lean so hence the rexxer flash.
Anyhow im not the one who wants 60HP 😂
-
That's not a problem at all, this I actually can do. :bow:
You've found a source for the drone engines??
-
Hi All
Does anyone know of an engine kit to bump-up the new V7's power above the official 48 hp?
Thanks
The answer is YES there are kits as Kev mentioned one is from Guzzi Power.com the other is from Guzzi Tech. Inquire with those folks and I'm sure they can help. I have no idea what the end result is, since I don't think anyone here has installed one and if they have they aren't saying anything. So please buy one and tell us about it :thumb:
-
I have the bike which was referred to in this post from the other thread. I believe the reflash and my 2 into 1 pipes from guzzi tech were well worth the money. I did not do it for more power I didn't like the look or sound before. I switched back to the longer pipe and it does run better since it was reflashed for the longer one. It pulls very hard and runs awesome. The only other thing would be the 4 valve upgrade but I will not be doing that.
-
It is all just a matter of money. You can do anything you like. Cams. Head porting. Have custom heads made. Even turbocharge or supercharge it. Bigger engine.
The real question is, how much money for how much hp are you willing to spend? Is $2000 for an extra 10hp worth it? Or do you want 20hp for that much?
If you can source a drone engine and install it, then just about anything is possible. Stuff a big block 8V in there.
Sorry for the diversion. It is an exercise I have found myself doing with a number of motor vehicles over the years. Most of the time I have found that spending thousands for a 10-20% increase in power is useless. Cause you end up wanting more. By the time you are done you could have bought a more powerful vehicle for less money in the first place.
-
If all you're looking for is more horses, then it's a waste of money to dump your hard earned money into these upgrades. The reason I decided to dump money into mine was because I knew the Lario engine was a flash in the pan for Guzzi (literally) and felt there was more character to be had as well as reliability with top-notch parts around. I also lived with one for a few years and knew what I wanted and where I wanted it. So... an experiment of sorts and a way to make an engine (and bike) mine without worrying about horses in the end. I ended up getting more than I expected as a whole so it all worked out beautifully, but if you figure dyno numbers into the equation and that's your end-game, it wasn't exactly cheap or remarkable. I wouldn't trade it for ANY engine as it's still a Guzzi, but one that works and feels exactly how I imagined it might. So... have at it, but do it for reasons that are attainable.
-
You've found a source for the drone engines??
:popcorn:
-
This will work to get the V7 going faster, guaranteed.
Follow all the instructions for a colonoscopy prep. Following the last blast, wait a few hours and with a gel seat or maybe an AirHawk or something like that, go for a ride. At about the 30 mile marker turn back, for a number of reasons.
That V7 will probably go faster than you've ever ridden it before. A lighter load = a faster bike.
-
Power from a V7....well, let's look at some figures from actual dyno runs (not seat of the pants or 'my cousin says'). The stock bike puts out 39.57 hp at the rear wheel. Re-flashed it jumps up to .....41.86 hp. The engine "feels" better but the numbers don't lie. Torque stayed virtually the same, 39.26/39.04. Same dyno, same operator. Unless you do significant work on the head you are wasting money on different exhaust or air cleaners, in fact a case can be made that messing with the airbox will really screw things up. I don't have numbers on that opinion. The stock Heron head is the limiting factor. Get the head ported and see a claimed 14% improvement in airflow. Wow, that might give 4-5 whole horsepower (very optimistic). Punch it out to 830cc or install Lario 4 valve heads, either option is going to be very expensive. I doubt you get 60 RWHP. I'd recommend spending a lot less money to upgrade the marginal suspension and thus go faster with less drama.
Peter Y.
-
The only real change you can make affects torque and where the peak figure occurs. The previous example of nearly identical torque figures show this. Make the same torque 1000 rpm higher and the horsepower number goes up. The output of the engine has not changed. Stop with the HP fascination. It's the "Mine is bigger than yours" man-trap. No wonder some factories do not publish HP although they readily cite torque figures. HP=TxRPM/5252.
-
I get what everyone is saying about not worth the time, money effort etc. but this guy wanted to know if there was a kit. Well, there is a kit, in fact maybe 2, so why not let the guy go ahead and spend his money if he wants to chase a few HP. It's his bike, his money, he has been duly warned that he's being silly and he should buy a different bike. He may want to do it, just to do it. Humans are funny that way.
-
Hmm, Chrome quit recognizing the emoticons again so I can't quote him, but pyoungbl pretty much has it nailed. Unless you are willing to experiment and spend a *lot* of money, the Heron small block isn't going to make a whole lot of power. That's not to say it isn't a fun engine to operate. Just don't expect to run away from a more "modern" 750 with it. The bike makes plenty of power to keep you in contention in the twistys, however, it just needs better suspension to do it.
-
Without passing judgment on the question (I don't own a SB) I'll just say that I do things all the time just to see what will happen. The only person I need to please is the guy paying for it. The OP has asked a reasonable question prior to doing anything. IMO this is the right way to start. Only he can sort out the answers and decide if it's worth perusing.
However, if it was my rig, given the answers, I'd look for some other problem to spend my $$$$ on.
$0.02
-
I get what everyone is saying about not worth the time, money effort etc. but this guy wanted to know if there was a kit. Well, there is a kit, in fact maybe 2, so why not let the guy go ahead and spend his money if he wants to chase a few HP. It's his bike, his money, he has been duly warned that he's being silly and he should buy a different bike. He may want to do it, just to do it. Humans are funny that way.
True. Todd@Guzzitech is almost ready to release his 820cc 4 valve kit. He told me that it's "not my cup of tea. but people in SoCal are loving the V7 and want more horsepower." <shrug> Are you listening, Mother Goose?? Probably not....
Actually, I can emphasize. I was out on the AeroLario again today with a seriously big grin in my helmet. More hp= more betta. :)
-
^^^^ This!
-
Without passing judgment on the question (I don't own a SB) I'll just say that I do things all the time just to see what will happen. The only person I need to please is the guy paying for it. The OP has asked a reasonable question prior to doing anything. IMO this is the right way to start. Only he can sort out the answers and decide if it's worth perusing.
However, if it was my rig, given the answers, I'd look for some other problem to spend my $$$$ on.
$0.02
Yes... this.
In the end it's the OP's decision to move forward or not. If he wants 60hp he might be in for a disappointment, but if he wants something simply more he can get that. If you want more up top that won't quit, go with the Guzzitech 4-valve heads. It's a different character for sure and if that's your thing (like mine) it will completely change your motors character. More torque go with Guzzi Racing's 820 kit et al. I don't care about figures as much as needs. Getting those needs met is awesome. The character CAN be changed, big hp figures not so much. Funny thing is Guzzi came out with the single TB a few years ago and everyone was talking about the extra hp figures (1 hp). Selling off their old stock for new stock for this is no different than a guy throwing a few $$ at gains he might desire in his current ride. It's all a perspective and it makes more sense to me to cater to yourself rather than wait for Guzzi to. Go for it!!
-
If a Monza has 45 horsepower, they're pretty small horses :cool:
"Torque" and "V50" in the same sentence, or even paragraph? Don't be absurd. The best way to make your V7 feel faster and more powerful would be to spend a few days on one of its smaller ancestors, Lario and Lario mutants ( :boozing:) excepted.
cr
-
Well, that was a fun exercise. Rocker59, please make this a sticky since we seem to plow this ground every two weeks or so.
Thanks,
Peter Y.
-
Performance increases are seriously limited because of the Heron head design.
Heron Heads Rule! The V7 is the last vehicle to use this old-time design. It provides good torque in the low to mid rpm range, where you really ride, and the design is known for economical performance.
Sure, there are faster, high rpm engines using the latest whiz-bang technology.
I don't want them.
Feel free to spend your $ on them, and on then endless dealer maintenance too (BMW, I'm talking about you).
-
Heron Heads Rule! The V7 is the last vehicle to use this old-time design. It provides good torque in the low to mid rpm range, where you really ride, and the design is known for economical performance.
Sure, there are faster, high rpm engines using the latest whiz-bang technology.
I don't want them.
Feel free to spend your $ on them, and on then endless dealer maintenance too (BMW, I'm talking about you).
BINGO!
-
Just enjoy riding a slow bike. Buy something faster next time .
-
For anybody who is seriously considering wasting their money going down this path here are a couple of things to consider.
Simply increasing capacity may get a bit more torque but to get more power you'll need a higher rev limit. Never mind the limitations in the valve train but I hope whoever is thinking of producing these technological marvels is giving some thought to the crank and rods.
I don't know if the current V7 rods have been substantially strengthened but they certainly look very similar to earlier smallblock rods. One thing that I my experience has always needed doing on any smallblock and more so the harder they were thrashed is re-sizing of the big ends during rebuilds. The big ends tend to ovalise as the wall thickness is really quite thin. While big block rods have always been substantial bits of engineering the smallblocks were always an 'Economy' model and there is nothing wrong with that but it does mean that in the interest of both cost and weight the rods are a bit flimsy. Also bear in mind that the engineers knew perfectly well the limitations of the Heron head design so super-high quality rods were un-necessary.
If though you are going to be chasing *more* from the engine one would hope that the use of lighter, forged, Pistons with a modern, shorter, skirt design, Deeves type oil ring and thin compression rings with low tension would be employed and the rods swapped for something more substantial. If this is not done it may work OK but life of components like big end shells is liable to be compromised and if you run your big ends? Well, I don't think you can get undersized bearings for smallblock rods and anyway you'd loose both the nitriding and rigidity of the crank if you do under-grind.
Look,if people want to go down this path all power to them but please! Look at the package holistically and consider ALL the relevant factors otherwise you're going to end up with an expensive and possibly dangerous disappointment. I don't want to hear a load of whinging and bitching about unreliability when an essentially good design is stretched beyond its service parameters.
Pete
-
Sometimes you can't always get what you want...
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/got%20it%20all_zpsq6ptfkg2.jpg)
But maybe you'll get what you need...
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/chart_zpsm0u7uivl.jpg)
:rolleyes:
-
For anybody who is seriously considering wasting their money going down this path here are a couple of things to consider.
Simply increasing capacity may get a bit more torque but to get more power you'll need a higher rev limit. Never mind the limitations in the valve train but I hope whoever is thinking of producing these technological marvels is giving some thought to the crank and rods.
I don't know if the current V7 rods have been substantially strengthened but they certainly look very similar to earlier smallblock rods. One thing that I my experience has always needed doing on any smallblock and more so the harder they were thrashed is re-sizing of the big ends during rebuilds. The big ends tend to ovalise as the wall thickness is really quite thin. While big block rods have always been substantial bits of engineering the smallblocks were always an 'Economy' model and there is nothing wrong with that but it does mean that in the interest of both cost and weight the rods are a bit flimsy. Also bear in mind that the engineers knew perfectly well the limitations of the Heron head design so super-high quality rods were un-necessary.
If though you are going to be chasing *more* from the engine one would hope that the use of lighter, forged, Pistons with a modern, shorter, skirt design, Deeves type oil ring and thin compression rings with low tension would be employed and the rods swapped for something more substantial. If this is not done it may work OK but life of components like big end shells is liable to be compromised and if you run your big ends? Well, I don't think you can get undersized bearings for smallblock rods and anyway you'd loose both the nitriding and rigidity of the crank if you do under-grind.
Look,if people want to go down this path all power to them but please! Look at the package holistically and consider ALL the relevant factors otherwise you're going to end up with an expensive and possibly dangerous disappointment. I don't want to hear a load of whinging and bitching about unreliability when an essentially good design is stretched beyond its service parameters.
Pete
Good conjecture Pete. There is likely one guy that has put these sb's to the test. At 54 RWHP and jet fuel, he has been testing their limits for a good while. Has anyone pulled these negatives out of him as I suspect he's keeping this stuff a secret... or is he?? I've got Carrillos and a balanced crank he installed, but he put simple big ends on mine. He mentioned nothing about beefing those up. I suspect he's running the same unless he's keeping it a secret.
-
Jet fuel is basically kerosene. If he's getting 54hp (22% increase) using jet fuel we'd all like to know the secret.
-
Maybe it's not officially jet fuel but racing fuel because of compression.
-
All those things Agro! observes also apply to my V7 Stone. What have I done? I have run it for 11000 kilometres now. Feels a lot stronger now.
In fact, the way the small Guzzi delivers its power is one main reason why this bike is so much fun. Of course a Monster 1200 feels stronger in a way that when I switched back to my bike I had to look whether there are still two cylinders attached. But when I rode a V-Strom 1000 (100 hp) for two days I wondered where the horsepowers were hidden. And no, it was not switched into the "rain" - mode.
Mate I am so happy with my V7 that I just recently sold my 990 Super Duke.
I was really sad to see the SD go plus It had all the mods and went really good but in the end its like you said its the way the V7 delivers its power that makes this bike so much fun.
Fuel economy is another plus and in the end we are riding on the street not a track.
There's nothing like big HP on a bike but in the real world its a receipe for disaster I never used to think like this and used to go fast most of the time but as I'm getting older I'm thinking differently plus I'm hoping to be still riding in my later years.
The only thing I'm doing now is upgrading the front and rear suspension and that's it. LIVING THE DREAM!
-
Talking horsepower will soon be banned on this board as it's becoming as sacred as religion and politics. I'm certainly not going to tell someone how to live their hp dream. If you want to say hp kills so be it. I will never own a fast bike because I'm just not into it, but that's not because I believe it kills you. Most accidents are at slow speeds so I could make a case for more hp but I'm not ignorant. Plumping up a Guzzi does not make a fast bike so the phrase "buy a fast bike" is a little silly to me. I don't know too many people that want to make their Guzzi slower so we should all get a faster bike if that were true. Learning stuff from others is what I prefer to do. If we keep telling people it's silly to touch their bike what might we miss? If we know something is going to hurt their bike through experience that's one thing, but I'm still a believer in trying some things and going places few have gone before. It's not JUST about hp figures remember. This thread has again become jump
on your bandwagon of "it's good enough, love it for what it is", "it will hurt your bike leave it be for cripesakes", or "here are your options, go for it if you wish". We all have our justifications, but "hp kills" is pointless and so seems "go buy a fast bike".
-
Good conjecture Pete. There is likely one guy that has put these sb's to the test. At 54 RWHP and jet fuel, he has been testing their limits for a good while. Has anyone pulled these negatives out of him as I suspect he's keeping this stuff a secret... or is he?? I've got Carrillos and a balanced crank he installed, but he put simple big ends on mine. He mentioned nothing about beefing those up. I suspect he's running the same unless he's keeping it a secret.
It always amuses me about using jet fuel. A gasoline powered engine will not even run on jet fuel
-
One of the great positives of the Heron head design is that you can run shitty fuel and a higher compression ratio than you can with an average 'Hemi' 2V architecture.
The downside is the lousy VE. You can't have it all! To pretend you can is as stupid as those Bikexif Photoshop fantasies displayed by the over-eager, educationally challenged numbskulls who believe a picture makes anything possible.
Pete
-
Oh come on Pete, I heard you can get 3hp just switching to iridium plugs. :boozing:
-
"Simply increasing capacity may get a bit more torque but to get more power you'll need a higher rev limit."
What if you keep a pretty flat torque curve all the way to the rev limit instead of falling off well below? Why raise the limiter? I certainly see no need. Did Guzzi raise the limiter on their 8-valve BB design significantly?
-
All I asked if you know of any engine kit to increase the power. If you don't know of any, say you don't know but stop with the lecturing crup. Thanks for those who gave useful answers it helped.
As for the drone engine, over a year ago I relocated to Israel and since here in the beginning of the 90's they have built their first drones with Guzzi V75 engines there are still some available and my mechanic already suggested me to put one in my V50 Monza.
once again thanks to all of you.
Best
-
This begs the question, what would be the shipping charges for the drone engine from Israel?
You might could sell a few if the price is right!
-
Before you go too far down the path of the drone engine you really need to take a look at what Chuck had to do to fit one. He's happy with the result but it was not a drop-in upgrade.
-
Hi All
Does anyone know of an engine kit to bump-up the new V7's power above the official 48 hp?
Thanks
Contact Guzzipower:
http://www.guzzipower.com/
If you have the $$$$, they have the solution.
-
This begs the question, what would be the shipping charges for the drone engine from Israel?
You might could sell a few if the price is right!
Doubtful on many levels.
edit: To be fair, we don't have a clue what this drone engine puts out. Guzzi hp figures are EXTREMELY sketchy (60hp on a lario-laugh). Don't trust them. We have Chuck's butt dyno, but... no need to travel the butt dyno path again. It will forever be a mystery what the drone produces unless we see some graphs, though myths seem to make many complacent.
-
Hi All
Does anyone know of an engine kit to bump-up the new V7's power above the official 48 hp?
Thanks
[/quote
Bet your sorry you asked. :grin: Doesn't take much to piss some people off.
-
All I asked if you know of any engine kit to increase the power. If you don't know of any, say you don't know but stop with the lecturing crup. Thanks for those who gave useful answers it helped.
As for the drone engine, over a year ago I relocated to Israel and since here in the beginning of the 90's they have built their first drones with Guzzi V75 engines there are still some available and my mechanic already suggested me to put one in my V50 Monza.
once again thanks to all of you.
Best
You're in Israel, and the drone engines are still around over there? I've got some relatives there. Maybe I could ask for a favor....
A better answer to your question is the 820cc big bore kit. I got one from R.A.M. of Italy, which is pretty close to you. The cylinders and pistons were fun to put in, but getting the fueling correct thereafter was a tremendous pain. Not as easy as changing a few carburetor jets. So the kit is not the easy answer it appears.
-
The thing about bench racing and hp/mod/go faster discussions that has always cracked me up is (to steal Petes phrase) no one looks at the rider and bike holistcally, as a system.
Loss of and location of weight is just as important as adding power, maybe even more important as cornering speed can improve before you lose traction and no hp increase can do that for you. I had more than one friend back in the motocross days pour lots of $$$$ into a bike while ignoring the fact that their own weight was how shall we say....a bit high. Now I'm the last guy to point a finger a a guys gut and laugh (my own 6-2 frame has varied from 170 to 220 lbs at different times in my life) but it's the cheapest way to go faster. Eat less, exercise more and you'll go faster. Or don't...but it's the cheapest and fastest way.
I used to race mountain bikes years ago with a guy who would spend thousands on titanium parts, down to the nuts and bolts, to save maybe 2 lbs on his 22ish pound cross country racer. He also loved Guinness and Carne Asada burritos.. So do I, but anyway....he always carried an extra 10 lbs minimum on himself. That's fine we all live the way the that makes us happy but most of the time and all his hard work on the bikes weight simply kept the aftermarket guys in business and had no real effect on his finishing times.
Talking about this stuff is no where near as cool as watching a drone engine transplant thread :bow: but much more attainable and maybe more effective too.
BTW I just blew up my LM III from the bottom end up. It's getting a fresh 1100 engine whIch I *think* came from a mid 90s Cali to replace the beautifully fun 850 mill so my bike is going to feel very different when it's back on the road. The price on the 1100 was less than a third of a guesstimate cost for a rebuild on the 850 so if I wanted to keep riding, the choice was obvious. I have no idea what my new HP numbers will be. The 1100 can be massaged into all sorts of configurations so some day I might be on here wondering about swapping heads to gain 4 hp.
Just doing my part to contribute to the required WG thread drift.
-
As we thread-drift along...don't forget about the 900cc Guzzi has admitted to have in development, per the 2015 Piaggio annual report to stockholders. No word whether this will be BB or SB but it will certainly broaden the line.
Peter Y.
-
I've owned 23 bikes over the years from 65cc to 1300cc and for me the little V7 has to be the best fun bike I've owned.
Ditto that. My '04 Breva is the most fun of my 20 different motorcycles. I've got 36,000 miles on it, mostly put on since 2012 when I bought it used.
Maybe spend the $$ for after market exhaust cans and a lithium battery. Both will save a lot of weight over the stock items. Leave the tool kit at home and lose 10 lbs off your arse to save still more hp eating flab.
All these "modifications" will improve the power to weight ratio (seat-of-the-pants performance) more than any black magic on the engine - with the exception of a new fuel mapping (ECU reflash) from Todd over at GuzziTech. That one is really worth the $$$.
'Geezer
-
The thing about bench racing and hp/mod/go faster discussions that has always cracked me up is (to steal Petes phrase) no one looks at the rider and bike holistcally, as a system.
Loss of and location of weight is just as important as adding power, maybe even more important as cornering speed can improve before you lose traction and no hp increase can do that for you. I had more than one friend back in the motocross days pour lots of $$$$ into a bike while ignoring the fact that their own weight was how shall we say....a bit high. Now I'm the last guy to point a finger a a guys gut and laugh (my own 6-2 frame has varied from 170 to 220 lbs at different times in my life) but it's the cheapest way to go faster. Eat less, exercise more and you'll go faster. Or don't...but it's the cheapest and fastest way.
I used to race mountain bikes years ago with a guy who would spend thousands on titanium parts, down to the nuts and bolts, to save maybe 2 lbs on his 22ish pound cross country racer. He also loved Guinness and Carne Asada burritos.. So do I, but anyway....he always carried an extra 10 lbs minimum on himself. That's fine we all live the way the that makes us happy but most of the time and all his hard work on the bikes weight simply kept the aftermarket guys in business and had no real effect on his finishing times.
Talking about this stuff is no where near as cool as watching a drone engine transplant thread :bow: but much more attainable and maybe more effective too.
BTW I just blew up my LM III from the bottom end up. It's getting a fresh 1100 engine whIch I *think* came from a mid 90s Cali to replace the beautifully fun 850 mill so my bike is going to feel very different when it's back on the road. The price on the 1100 was less than a third of a guesstimate cost for a rebuild on the 850 so if I wanted to keep riding, the choice was obvious. I have no idea what my new HP numbers will be. The 1100 can be massaged into all sorts of configurations so some day I might be on here wondering about swapping heads to gain 4 hp.
Just doing my part to contribute to the required WG thread drift.
Nobody?? I call BS on this. I did with mine. Loss of weight, different ergos, brakes, suspension. I'm 160 @ 6' so no need for me to lose weight. I have a 12oz. battery so can't go any lower there either. Your statement CRACKS ME UP. :thumb:My entire project was holistic. This thread is full of funny one-liners. :shocked:
-
For anybody who is seriously considering wasting their money going down this path here are a couple of things to consider.
Simply increasing capacity may get a bit more torque but to get more power you'll need a higher rev limit. Never mind the limitations in the valve train but I hope whoever is thinking of producing these technological marvels is giving some thought to the crank and rods.
I don't know if the current V7 rods have been substantially strengthened but they certainly look very similar to earlier smallblock rods. One thing that I my experience has always needed doing on any smallblock and more so the harder they were thrashed is re-sizing of the big ends during rebuilds. The big ends tend to ovalise as the wall thickness is really quite thin. While big block rods have always been substantial bits of engineering the smallblocks were always an 'Economy' model and there is nothing wrong with that but it does mean that in the interest of both cost and weight the rods are a bit flimsy. Also bear in mind that the engineers knew perfectly well the limitations of the Heron head design so super-high quality rods were un-necessary.
If though you are going to be chasing *more* from the engine one would hope that the use of lighter, forged, Pistons with a modern, shorter, skirt design, Deeves type oil ring and thin compression rings with low tension would be employed and the rods swapped for something more substantial. If this is not done it may work OK but life of components like big end shells is liable to be compromised and if you run your big ends? Well, I don't think you can get undersized bearings for smallblock rods and anyway you'd loose both the nitriding and rigidity of the crank if you do under-grind.
Look,if people want to go down this path all power to them but please! Look at the package holistically and consider ALL the relevant factors otherwise you're going to end up with an expensive and possibly dangerous disappointment. I don't want to hear a load of whinging and bitching about unreliability when an essentially good design is stretched beyond its service parameters.
Pete
Pete,
I must say I've not heard much in the way of bottom end issues with the sb's. The one I have ran out of oil so that's a given. Perhaps I've missed something? I've heard a good deal of BB's that have had bottom end journal issues (as posted above) though. Just saying I haven't seen evidence of the issue.... yet. Again, I'd like to know what Millich races with with his old V65 54hp winner. Seems it's holding up ok.
-
Nobody?? I call BS on this. I did with mine. Loss of weight, different ergos, brakes, suspension. I'm 160 @ 6' so no need for me to lose weight. I have a 12oz. battery so can't go any lower there either. Your statement CRACKS ME UP. :thumb:My entire project was holistic. This thread is full of funny one-liners. :shocked:
Ok....you and three or so other guys. :laugh:
I'll amend my sentence from "nobody" to "almost no one".
Other than that, yeah, what I said before.
-
Pete,
I must say I've not heard much in the way of bottom end issues with the sb's. The one I have ran out of oil so that's a given. Perhaps I've missed something? I've heard a good deal of BB's that have had bottom end journal issues (as posted above) though. Just saying I haven't seen evidence of the issue.... yet. Again, I'd like to know what Millich races with with his old V65 54hp winner. Seems it's holding up ok.
Is Ed using stock rods? I dunno? All I'm doing is saying I hope that if some sort of hot-up kit is produced it is done properly.
pete
-
Looking at Ed's photos it is still a Heron head system. I notice that he talks about torque rather than hp.
-
Looking at Ed's photos it is still a Heron head system. I notice that he talks about torque rather than hp.
Yes, putting a few stallions into your motor will significantly change its character. Hp and torque are little understood. When people say they want more hp I don't necessarily take that at face value. Do they really want to go from 105 to 120 mph or do they want to simply get to 105 with a harder pull and quicker rate? Of course, hp will usually go up to some degree when you bump torque significantly.
-
Oh come on Pete, I heard you can get 3hp just switching to iridium plugs. :boozing:
you forgot
+1.5 BHP for an air cleaner
+2 BHP for a new exhaust
+3 BHP for one of them there magnetic fuel enhancer dodads :rolleyes:
and the best one
+15 BHP (equivalent) if the fat git (myself included) riding it looses a couple of stone :evil:
RaananC - good luck with whatever you decide
-
And you will go faster in a bathing suit.
Use synthetic suntan oil if you must.
-
Every year they release a new Driver (golf content) that is supposed to be 5 yards longer than the previous years model.
I'm thinking I should be hitting 295 yards, if you add up all the drivers I have bought!
-
Every year they release a new Driver (golf content) that is supposed to be 5 yards longer than the previous years model.
I'm thinking I should be hitting 295 yards, if you add up all the drivers I have bought!
Same with "hi-fi" components, every year lower distortion, higher S/N ratio, etc. And bicycle frames, every year lighter, stiffer, less wind resistance. I believed all that stuff for the first 50 years or so, now, not so much.
-
Same with "hi-fi" components, every year lower distortion, higher S/N ratio, etc. And bicycle frames, every year lighter, stiffer, less wind resistance. I believed all that stuff for the first 50 years or so, now, not so much.
Yes, for this reason horse power is overrated but torque is telling. I agree.
-
Well, I do understand the basics of how torque is calculated, and maybe more importantly have an idea for how different motors feel based on peak hp or peak torque figures and where they make said peaks in their rpm range.
I definitely have a preference for twin cylinder motorcycles, that generally make generous amounts of torque and usually lower in the power band.
But I can't say that the HP figures are irrelevant in terms of performance, just looking at my own garage.
Duc 696 - 408# wet, rated at ~ 67 RWHP and 44 torques, 12.21 second 1/4 mile
V7 Stone - 444# wet, rated at ~ 40 RWHP and 41 torques, 14.57 second 1/4 mile
Somehow I don't believe that more than 2 second difference in the 1/4 mile is 3 ft. lbs. of torque and 36# of weight. Seems how and where it is making that hp (and how much) is the main difference.
Now, that said, I STILL PREFER the V7 to the Duc, but the Duc doesn't feel like a highly stressed motor. It might turn 500-1000 rpm quicker much of the time, but doesn't feel buzzy, peaky, or like it is straining.
I know that at the absolute top end it's still pulling long after the V7 cried uncle.
And at the end of the day it is in the same ballpark on acceleration as the third bike in the garage (which has almost 2x the displacement):
Sportster 1200, at least 585# wet, ~65 RWHP and 70 torques, 1/4 mile in the high 12's.
Of course I can't imagine that Sportster seeing the same top end as the Duc either...though it'll easily match/best the V7.
<shrugs>
-
To add to the thread drift---Kev m--why do you prefer the Guzzi V7 to the little Ducati monster?
I've always been tempted by a Ducati like that but never had one. So I'd be interested in why you prefer the Guzzi I already own.
-
To add to the thread drift---Kev m--why do you prefer the Guzzi V7 to the little Ducati monster?
I've always been tempted by a Ducati like that but never had one. So I'd be interested in why you prefer the Guzzi I already own.
I could write a book, but here are some thoughts.
Reader's Digest:
* Looks
* Ergos
* Simplicity of maintenance
* Sum of the motor and chassis*
*I'll expound on them all, but this one will take the most explanation.
* LOOKS - I'm not too proud to admit that I need to be emotionally stirred by the appearance of my bikes. I like them to have traditional lines, analog gauges, simple/uncluttered looks that make the engine the star. The looks and gauges remind me I'm on a motorbike and not a space ship.
The Duc has a better chassis (lighter/stiffer, with better suspension out of the box), but it has some exaggerated, almost cartoon-like, components/design elements, like the rear subframe and swingarm, or the overly angular headlight and the digital LED gauges. It doesn't matter how well it works if I don't like to stare at it in my garage.
That's not to say the Duc is a bad looking bike overall, it just doesn't speak to ME as much as the V7 does. And on the V7, bags don't hurt the looks, where the high exhaust on the Duc pushes bags out to an almost comical distance from the centerline.
* ERGOS - The standard, upright riding position of the Stone is perfect for me. It feels like I can tuck in for twisties, but I can be just as comfortable bolt upright and sniffing the roses. I can move around on the seat and find some variation to the seating in the V7. But the Duc slopes forward in the seat to the tank (ball crusher) and locks you into one position much more. There's also a little more forward a lean that is great for the twisties, but discourages you from smelling the roses.
* SIMPLICITY OF MAINTENANCE - This is simple. No chain to clean/lubricate every 500-1000 miles (or whenever it rains), no biennial timing belt replacements, infinitely easier valve adjustments. There's no comparison, the V7 is easier to live with. We just spent $1200 between a new rear tire and the fluids, maintenance and adjustments mentioned above plus fork, brake, and clutch fluid on the Duc at 7500 miles.
* SUM OF THE MOTOR AND CHASSIS - at the end of the day, if you're a V11 Sport, Griso, or MV Augusta, or Speed-Triple guy then the Duc is for you. The USD forks, mono-shock rear, lightweight Brembo wheels and radial tires will all combine for a faster ride through the twisties, or will tempt you to follow a Corvette at speeds far enough over the ton that the V7 will never see (unless dropped from a plane).
If a LeMans, or Cali, or Airhead, or Bonneville appeals to you more, then the V7 if for you. On the street the V7 will take those same curves still at speeds double the "recommended" for the curve, or arguably pushing sane amounts for the street. But it will make you feel more the hero for it. At the end of the day you'll use a higher percentage of the motor and chassis before you break the law or risk your life as much. You can, very simply, push the V7 more and feel like you're accomplishing more, while still actually going slower than the Duc, which, on the street, can be a good thing.
Think a hot hatch instead of a Supercar, or a Miata instead of an M3, a Mini instead of a Ferrari.
I can slow down and enjoy the V7 easier/more than I can the Duc.
I'm glad we own the Duc and take it out now and again. But I can honestly say I'd never have bought one personally nor would I own one if it wasn't Jenn's ride of choice.
I don't fault anyone for loving the Duc, especially a Monster or the new Scrambler, but I know myself and I couldn't be happier with my V7 or Sportster.
-
PS, thinking about it more, my Sportster was to my Buell, as my V7 is to our Duc.
The Buell was basically a hand built American Griso. Same riding position, about 100 rwhp, same weight (low 500's). It was a little more upright and had an amazing range on a 5 gallon tank. But the mass centralization, USD forks, pizza-sized front disc and huge caliper, mono-shock rear all added up to 100 reasons I was supposed to like it more than my Sporty. But too often I found myself on the Buell wishing that I was on the Sporty. It was too easy to get tempted to ride faster than I should. It was harder to enjoy at more sane speeds.
To an extent I've spent a large part of my riding career with this struggle.
I appreciate the design and performance of the Duc or Buell on paper, but prefer the V7 or Sportster in reality.
My Jackal was to my Breva the same way.
My Road King to my R1100RSa.
I should just learn the lesson lol.
I've spent a long time trying to want the bikes I'm supposed to want.
I don't feel the need to do that anymore.
-
Well, I do understand the basics of how torque is calculated, and maybe more importantly have an idea for how different motors feel based on peak hp or peak torque figures and where they make said peaks in their rpm range.
I definitely have a preference for twin cylinder motorcycles, that generally make generous amounts of torque and usually lower in the power band.
But I can't say that the HP figures are irrelevant in terms of performance, just looking at my own garage.
Duc 696 - 408# wet, rated at ~ 67 RWHP and 44 torques, 12.21 second 1/4 mile
V7 Stone - 444# wet, rated at ~ 40 RWHP and 41 torques, 14.57 second 1/4 mile
Somehow I don't believe that more than 2 second difference in the 1/4 mile is 3 ft. lbs. of torque and 36# of weight. Seems how and where it is making that hp (and how much) is the main difference.
Now, that said, I STILL PREFER the V7 to the Duc, but the Duc doesn't feel like a highly stressed motor. It might turn 500-1000 rpm quicker much of the time, but doesn't feel buzzy, peaky, or like it is straining.
I know that at the absolute top end it's still pulling long after the V7 cried uncle.
And at the end of the day it is in the same ballpark on acceleration as the third bike in the garage (which has almost 2x the displacement):
Sportster 1200, at least 585# wet, ~65 RWHP and 70 torques, 1/4 mile in the high 12's.
Of course I can't imagine that Sportster seeing the same top end as the Duc either...though it'll easily match/best the V7.
<shrugs>
Then I don't think you'd cry if you put a little Duc top end on your V7. :wink:
-
Then I don't think you'd cry if you put a little Duc top end on your V7. :wink:
I honestly don't know.
It might be a bonus, or it might change that fourth item in the list, that "sum of the motor and chassis".
I did say that I tend to pick the V7 over the Duc, and it's at least 9 outta 10 times.
The Corvette I mentioned was a specific instance that tempted me to explore the Duc's top end. I dunno if I'd ever want to do that on the V7 that way. And if that top end cost it the character and fun of the bottom end, being able to feel like I'm pushing it at lower speeds, then probably not.
-
I honestly don't know.
It might be a bonus, or it might change that fourth item in the list, that "sum of the motor and chassis".
I did say that I tend to pick the V7 over the Duc, and it's at least 9 outta 10 times.
The Corvette I mentioned was a specific instance that tempted me to explore the Duc's top end. I dunno if I'd ever want to do that on the V7 that way. And if that top end cost it the character and fun of the bottom end, being able to feel like I'm pushing it at lower speeds, then probably not.
Nah, think 8-valve BB. Not too many guys are complaining about how it ruined their fun. It doesn't do much to the bottom. Same Guzzi character just no wheezing.
-
Nah, think 8-valve BB. Not too many guys are complaining about how it ruined their fun. It doesn't do much to the bottom. Same Guzzi character just no wheezing.
I preferred my B11 to the Griso 8V I test rode. I still feel the 2V BB was a better motor for me.
But in the end, I decided I preferred a 40 hp Smallblock to either.
<shrugs>
-
Bottom line is when proven (on paper), hp or torque comes from anywhere but the factory it's debunked. I find this particularly fascinating from Guzzi folks who seem relatively open-minded do it yourselfers. I understand people don't want the hassle to go this route. The part I can't understand is that it's been done yet people say it can't, we have not seen proof of blown up engines (even when they're raced for years under heavy mods and high hp), and the money involved is no higher than buying a new bike and turning around and selling it a year or two later only to buy the same bike new again with few changes. That's also expensive and your bike has possibly less change than the equal value modded one does. I flat guarantee if Guzzi came out with a bump of 5-6 hp (and some torque) that there would be one hell of a stir over it. Coming from the factory (without paper to prove it) means everything!! :thewife:
Ps, we also know the Guzzi engineers have been spot on over the years. :boozing:
-
I think the stock engine on any motorcycle (or car) can be improved with a few upgrades, "improved" meaning smoother, more tractable power through the power band. Most stock suspensions are lowest-bidder type of equipment.
Smoother, more tractable power often feels like more horse-power, even though it may not be. Every vehicle I have owned has had mods done by me: I want the bike (or car) to drive and handle the way I want.
Stock bikes try to be everything to all people, and smog and noise compliant at the same time. Its not that the engineers don't know what they are doing, but that their goals are not the same as mine, thats all.
Think of it as setting the bike free: "free to be, all it can be".....even with only 40-odd horses.
-
All I asked if you know of any engine kit to increase the power. If you don't know of any, say you don't know but stop with the lecturing crup. Thanks for those who gave useful answers it helped.
As for the drone engine, over a year ago I relocated to Israel and since here in the beginning of the 90's they have built their first drones with Guzzi V75 engines there are still some available and my mechanic already suggested me to put one in my V50 Monza.
once again thanks to all of you.
Best
You said you haven't been around in a year, you may have missed it! Look at Chuck in Indiana's profile, check his post... find the Aero drone engine thread.. ready made instructions for you & your mechanic friend!
Also in the last year, a member here put lario 4v heads on a modern v7. His build is well documented in its own thread.
-
You said you haven't been around in a year, you may have missed it! Look at Chuck in Indiana's profile, check his post... find the Aero drone engine thread.. ready made instructions for you & your mechanic friend!
Also in the last year, a member here put lario 4v heads on a modern v7. His build is well documented in its own thread.
YES... instead of looking the other way let's use the experience of others and say what's possible. Pissing on this stuff and calling foul does not help the case for those that paved the way. I'm sure the Wright Bros. heard their share of this negativity as well. Somebody eventually went out on a limb.
-
http://www.zweiradshop-stuhlmueller.de/Moto-Guzzi-V-7-750.50573.html
in german, but you can use translator. the guy got high praise from the press. you just can send him the head also and he will tune it for you. stage one is 790 euro, stage 2 about 1200, stage 3 about 1700 euro - all including remapping
-
Can I get more power out of my v65 if I go to a more lite oil? I'm thinking if I run a straight 15 weight there will be less drag, thus more horsepower, right? I realize heat could be a problem, so I don't plan on running it more than an hour, before shutting down to let the heat dissipate.
Also planing on using hotter plugs to make a bigger spark, thus igniting more fuel, once again more HP!
Also going to try a quart/litter of Slick 50, for even more friction/drag reduction. And of course I'm gonna pull the air box, put on pods, and dump the stock cans, for some super free flows from Warshaskys, or whatever there called these days.
Any other ideas, I would like to think with a little work and less that $500 I should be able to get the old girl to put out close to 60HP? Should I also go with bigger jets?
-
Yes, bigger jets, or jet pack it's the only way a turd will fly.
-
Looking at the Dyno chart it would seem an awful lot of money to spend for no return???
-
Looking at the Dyno chart it would seem an awful lot of money to spend for no return???
Yeah , the chart is misleading . The gains look good until you realize the gain is just over 1 HP at high RPMs . I am guessing the flat spot at low RPMs could be tuned out with a good remap .
DustyLooking at the Dyno chart it would seem an awful lot of money to spend for no return???
-
Yeah , the chart is misleading . The gains look good until you realize the gain is just over 1 HP at high RPMs . I am guessing the flat spot at low RPMs could be tuned out with a good remap .
Dusty
Love it! "Flat spot at low RPM"? :shocked: Try coughing and wheezing up top. :wink:
-
Yeah , the chart is misleading . The gains look good until you realize the gain is just over 1 HP at high RPMs . I am guessing the flat spot at low RPMs could be tuned out with a good remap .
Dusty
the chart doesnt show the original dyno chart, it is not stated what the red line actually is
-
the chart doesnt show the original dyno chart, it is not stated what the red line actually is
OK , so where is the original ?
Dusty
-
Some V7 dyno charts...
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=22859.0
Lots of info on the Guzzitech Lario head conversion: http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/v7-classic-with-lario-heads.14276/
Too much effort for most home mechanics!
-
Some V7 dyno charts...
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=22859.0
Lots of info on the Guzzitech Lario head conversion: http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/v7-classic-with-lario-heads.14276/
Too much effort for most home mechanics!
Don't get the wrong idea with the Guzzitech link. This is MWRENN's mod not Guzzitech's. It was all posted here at WG as well. We don't know what will be offered up by Guzzitech in the end.
-
how about this for power bump:
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m535/cvcaelen/DSCI0919_zpsblsx5rmq.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/cvcaelen/media/DSCI0919_zpsblsx5rmq.jpg.html)
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m535/cvcaelen/DSCI0920_zpsdsrrhu7r.jpg) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/cvcaelen/media/DSCI0920_zpsdsrrhu7r.jpg.html)
seen at a dealer in Austria,
seems to have been a "secret" project givven to Guzzi,
but they never put it in a frame
Christiaan
-
Can I get more power out of my v65 if I go to a more lite oil? I'm thinking if I run a straight 15 weight there will be less drag, thus more horsepower, right? I realize heat could be a problem, so I don't plan on running it more than an hour, before shutting down to let the heat dissipate.
Also planing on using hotter plugs to make a bigger spark, thus igniting more fuel, once again more HP!
Also going to try a quart/litter of Slick 50, for even more friction/drag reduction. And of course I'm gonna pull the air box, put on pods, and dump the stock cans, for some super free flows from Warshaskys, or whatever there called these days.
Any other ideas, I would like to think with a little work and less that $500 I should be able to get the old girl to put out close to 60HP? Should I also go with bigger jets?
You forgot the fuel line turbonator and copper magnets.
-
Well.... Don't tell anyone but it is a well known secret, nudge, nudge, (http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/eyebrows_zpsmhkbsqrs.gif) that for just $599.95 (not Australian), 10 minutes time, a rusty nail and this baby, all your troubles will seem so far away!
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/MRCK-013R-500x500_zps1e04xcso.jpg)
Fuel line extra.
-
Well.... Don't tell anyone but it is a well known secret, nudge, nudge, (http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/eyebrows_zpsmhkbsqrs.gif) that for just $599.95 (not Australian), 10 minutes time, a rusty nail and this baby, all your troubles will seem so far away!
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/MRCK-013R-500x500_zps1e04xcso.jpg)
Fuel line extra.
For that price you've got to be looking at a few hp bump. Now that anyone can add. :bow:
-
Duc 696 - 408# wet, rated at ~ 67 RWHP and 44 torques, 12.21 second 1/4 mile
V7 Stone - 444# wet, rated at ~ 40 RWHP and 41 torques, 14.57 second 1/4 mile
Somehow I don't believe that more than 2 second difference in the 1/4 mile is 3 ft. lbs. of torque and 36# of weight. Seems how and where it is making that hp (and how much) is the main difference.
The Duc makes that torque up to higher RPM than the V7. Run that torque through shorter gearing, and torque at the rear wheel is much higher.
Say, just for argument sake (this is just for explaining the theory, not actual numbers for the above bikes) that you have one motor making 40 ft*lb of torque at 5,000 RPM, and another making it at 4,000 RPM.
Now, using a 5:1 total drive reduction to the rear wheel for the first bike, you've got (ignoring drivetrain losses for simplicity) 5* 40 = 200 ft*lb at 1,000 RPM at the rear wheel.
With the second bike, to get 1,000 RPM at the rear wheel, you'd need a 4:1 reduction, yielding 160 ft*lb at 1,000 RPM. So, the first bike would have 25% more torque available.
Now, NOT ignoring drivetrain losses, shaft drive has higher losses than chain drive, so that would like add a few % in the Duc's favor as well.
So, to benefit from the extra HP, in this example, you simply need to rev the motor more. Your M696 will pull strongly to well over 8,000 RPM (HP peak is at 8,750 if my memory serves me right), while the V7 runs out of steam at by 7,000 (as I know you know, and alluded to in your post).
What's this mean for riding on the street? Not a whole hell of a lot for most of the riding we do. On the track? The Duc will trounce the V7. Relevance to your riding? None. And the V7 kills the Duc in the style dept. I own one of each, and enjoy each for what it is.
-
Well, my post was meant to suggest you can't just look at peak torque figures and ignore hp.
But your example makes me wonder what the overall performance result of changing a sprocket would mean on the Duc and resulting rwhp dyno chart.
You'd think it would make it quicker off the line (or powering out of curves) and might cost you a little on the top end. Wonder if a dyno chart would show a change to peak figures or rpm?
-
Jas makes precisely my point. You have to look at things holistically in order to make real changes where YOU want them. It's not just hp or torque figures but gearing as well. I didn't like the high gearing on the lario as I'm not into TOP SPEED numbers. The 4-valve heads also don't pull exactly stellar down low, so I had all the internals lightened and geared down. Horse power bump of a good 15% and torque perfectly linear all the way up to almost redline. It seems to pull pretty equally everywhere now BECAUSE I HELPED THE LOW END and more fuel and compression gives a rush all the way up. 15% is good, but it's the other stuff that made the bigger gains in feel and my preferred kind of riding IMO. I consider the change big but it is not just because hp went up 15%.
If your Duc pulls harder up top and can hang down below with the V7, it will kill it on a straight long run. There's your difference. If your canyon carving the weight will help you some, but torque being equal doesn't give it a huge advantage because you can't get into the upper power band where it excels. The racers look at track, torque, and gearing accordingly. That can change with each race I'd suspect.
-
Then I was misunderstanding your point. I thought you were effectively saying to ignore hp because go and torque are mathematically related (one derived from the other).
I agree you have to look at the whole, and WHERE/HOW the power is made especially.
I'll still choose the V7 over the Duc even with the power differences, which was my other point.
-
Then I was misunderstanding your point. I thought you were effectively saying to ignore hp because go and torque are mathematically related (one derived from the other).
I agree you have to look at the whole, and WHERE/HOW the power is made especially.
I'll still choose the V7 over the Duc even with the power differences, which was my other point.
I ran into a guy today at the bank with a V7 Stone like yours Kev. Talked awhile then he started and took off. Such a sweet note and easy running bike. I get the power thing and using the right tool for the job. I don't like taking my Lario to run errands as it is a bike that wants to run not walk. It's a good Sunday rider but I don't like to do the stop and start thing with it. It's more visceral. I would love to have the easy feeling and stylish ride that the newer stock bikes give also. Been there with the B750 before so I get it. Every bike has it's own way it wants to be ridden and it's hard to fight that.
-
..... Every bike has it's own way it wants to be ridden and it's hard to fight that.
Spot on, kevdog.
The V7 is happy to chill and ride easy around town, but also responds well to being ridden hard.
The Duc (my M796 to me anyway) is a more single purpose machine. It begs to be ridden hard all the time. I think that the V7 is the more versatile bike. I don't often ride my M796 to work, but, ride the V7 to work quite often. I would happily tour on a V7, but, probably not on the M796.
Well, my post was meant to suggest you can't just look at peak torque figures and ignore hp.
But your example makes me wonder what the overall performance result of changing a sprocket would mean on the Duc and resulting rwhp dyno chart.
You'd think it would make it quicker off the line (or powering out of curves) and might cost you a little on the top end. Wonder if a dyno chart would show a change to peak figures or rpm?
I did change the front sprocket of my M796 from 15 to 14. It was a bit rough off the line with the 15. This is a common complaint with this model. I'm sure it is likely quicker off the line, but, more importantly, I can launch it much more smoothly, as the engine gets to an RPM it runs smoothly at more quickly.
Also, the 796 just isn't smooth below 4,000 RPM at all. With the stock gearing that meant 6th gear wasn't usable under 75 MPH. With the 14, 6th is usable at anything over 66-68 MPH.
As for top end, it may or may not lose top end, but, it doesn't matter. At 125 MPH, it was still pulling :evil:. That's too fast with no wind protection. I don't remember what RPM it was turning at that speed, or even if I was in 6th, but, 70 MPH is around 4,000 RPM in 6th, so, that should be 7,150, HP peak (according to specs) is at 8,250 RPM. If anything, I'd say that the shorter gearing would actually help top speed in top gear.
-
Ad about 6 to 8% Toluene or if can`t find that use Lacquer thinner to your fuel, it will increase the fuels BTU`s. You`ll get at about 6% hp increase for a few dollars. Just don`t get greedy and use more.
-
Hi Raanan, you just poked a stick in a hornets' nest :P
Your best chance with having some more power with the monza imo would be with a 2 valve 650 or 750 engine. These engines can keep you a bit faster than modern traffic. Aviv transplanted a Lario engine in a Imola, ask him about the progress, highly risky. tell me if you find a drone engine.