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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: SED on July 05, 2015, 08:52:06 PM
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Being a belt and suspenders type guy I solder all connections and cover them with shrink tube, but an electrical engineer friend insists that crimping is better because it does not form a stress riser under the insulation which will lead to breakage.
I've experienced this type of failure once, but I've experienced many failed home crimps (not factory) that suffer similar vibration breakage, or more commonly corrosion and resistance.
What will give the best long-term service home solder job or home crimp?
I'm adding a system fuse to a LMIII and want to do it right.
Thanks,
Shawn
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Either method is acceptable if done correctly. If you crimp be sure and use the correct size connector and pack the connector with dielectric grease and use shrink tubing to further seal the connection. Quality parts and tools also go a long way to ensure a good repair. Good luck. :boozing:
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I was always told to make the connection mechanically secure first, like twisting wires together, then solder it.
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I've always been told to solder where there's no vibration and crimp where there is. <shrug>
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I crimp, then solder whenever possible, followed with shrink wrap. My son pulls the insulation back, crimps, solders, and pushes the insulation back up.
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That sounds good too!
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When I built my boat I did a bunch of research into this issue. Salt water is mighty tough on electrical connections so doing it right the first time is important. The crimp solution was the one recommended. Why? Well, solder creates a rigid joint that won't flex with vibration; each solder joint is only as good as the technique used and it's all too easy to get a cold solder joint; solder joints don't react well with our salty air.
Bikes have even more vibration than boats, thus I think the answer is the same, better to have a good crimp on a connector that incorporates a high quality shrink wrap. I use crimps (up to about 10 gauge wire) on my bikes and have no problems. My supplies come from DelCity www.delcity.net
Peter Y.
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Thanks guys! WG has all the experts! :thumb:
Normally I try to do both without letting the solder wick up the wire away from the connector. This time I used crimp and shrink tube on tinned wire ends because I couldn't get the 10 AWG connector hot enough for a good solder job. Unfortunately I didn't think to use dielectric grease before crimping... Oh well, easy fix.
BTW Peter, the friend recommending crimp only specializes in designing electrical equipment for yachts.
https://www.bluesea.com/
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Normally I try to do both without letting the solder wick up the wire away from the connector.
That's what I settled on after many years of installing connectors professionally. It's like an oil thread, there are many correct answers. Choose the one that has the lowest failure rate for you.
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I've always been told to solder where there's no vibration and crimp where there is. <shrug>
This ^
In aviation where vibration is a significant issue, crimping is the only accepted technique.
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I crimp or solder but not @ the same time. :smiley: Used do to appliance repair and use a Vaco #1900 crimper made for 10-22 gauge wire. It has never let me down. It punctures the terminal into the wire. :thumb:
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When I built my boat I did a bunch of research into this issue. Salt water is mighty tough on electrical connections so doing it right the first time is important. The crimp solution was the one recommended. Why? Well, solder creates a rigid joint that won't flex with vibration; each solder joint is only as good as the technique used and it's all too easy to get a cold solder joint; solder joints don't react well with our salty air.
Bikes have even more vibration than boats, thus I think the answer is the same, better to have a good crimp on a connector that incorporates a high quality shrink wrap. I use crimps (up to about 10 gauge wire) on my bikes and have not problems. My supplies come from DelCity www.delcity.net
Peter Y.
:1:
A proper crimp will not come lose. The idea that soldering a crimp makes it stronger isn't the total picture because strength does not equal durability.
Anyone notice that cables leading from your batteries are not soldered? Someone knows something.
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I had a friend that worked for a place that made power supplies for military applications. When we did large electrical projects we would crimp the connections with an uninsulated butt connector, clean with alcohol, then solder the joint, and seal with shrink tube. Usually in my real life where I want the best for the effort I get the shrink tube type connectors and crimp with a high quality tool and seal.
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Good crimping tools are not cheap. If you do not have the proper tool, solder. :boozing:
Matt
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NASA crimps... Just saying. You think they take the time to solder the bazillion connections in the old Shuttle?
That said, a proper solder with minimal wicking into the stranded wire and heat shrink for strain relief will not fatigue off... I did that on my old race bikes and never had a failure.
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Good crimping tools are not cheap. If you do not have the proper tool, solder. :boozing:
Matt
$335 bucks for this tool. I guess my crappy $18 dollar tool is not equal?
(http://www.delcity.net/images/photos/990130_primary.jpg)
How about this compromise at $45 bucks?
(http://www.delcity.net/images/photos/990160_primary.jpg)
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The top one is what I use for network cable.
The bottom one -- eeeew. Just eeeewww.
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This ^
In aviation where vibration is a significant issue, crimping is the only accepted technique.
+1
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I usually crimp then solder.
My problem with crimps is that they sometimes don't fit perfectly; maybe that's because I use different types of wires as they are sourced from different places (and some are integral to the components being connected). I've tried several different (up to $100) crimpers, and some work well in one application not so well in others. `
I've had crimped connectors pull apart, but never had an failures of crimped/soldered or soldered connections.
Rich A
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All of the above.
I use a lot of Molex connectors on the bike (and other vehicles). My crimp tool was $30 (for one size molex). It works like a champ and duplicates factory crimp. Using the a good crimp tool is key.
I have also been known to solder connections in some places. When I do I also 'reinforce' the wire with shrink tube, sometimes two layers of it.
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If you use "double crimp" terminals and a proper crimping tool, I'm not sure how they'd pull apart, since the terminal is crimped onto both the wire and insulation.
(http://vintageconnections.com/images/Dsc00044s.jpg)
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If you use "double crimp" terminals and a proper crimping tool, I'm not sure how they'd pull apart, since the terminal is crimped onto both the wire and insulation.
(http://vintageconnections.com/images/Dsc00044s.jpg)
+1 this solution. These make for a superior connection. I just got done re-furbing a harness for a 65 Honda CT200 using Vintage Connections terminals.
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Good soldering can be better than bad crimping, but good crimping is best where there is vibration!
A good crimper automatically rolls and drives the small tabs near the terminal into the wire, and at the same time gently wraps the longer tabs around the wire's insulation to form a strain relief. Because the plastic insulation winds up holding the wire inside the strain relief, vibration is damped and not transmitted directly to the solid terminal crimp. Different types of terminals require different crimping, so good crimpers provide exchangeable dies that are suited to different types.
A good crimper with replaceable/exchangeable dies costs $35. It is from http://www.vintageconnections.com/ (http://www.vintageconnections.com/), and is found part way down their home page. It comes with dies that are suitable for the types of connectors used on Guzzis (Molex or Hitachi, depending on the era). Other styles of dies for it cost $12 each type. Here is their guarantee:
"Our crimping tool manufacturer sells their tools worldwide, under a broad range of OEM brand names, such as GC Waldom, and Tool Aid, among many others. The tool model pictured above is the only model of ergonomic crimping tool from that manufacturer that offers a patented 30% reduced-compressive-force design, for ease of prolonged use. We're in our second year of retailing it [that is, their 3rd-generation version]. Are there better tools out there? Sure... if you don't mind spending from 200% as much, to as much as 1000% more money to buy FAA-certified crimping tools that are intended for airframe repairs. We're so sure our tool will make you smile, that we promise you this: If you try our crimping tool and learn the crimping technique, and it doesn't duplicate the quality of the crimps in your original factory harness, send it back and we'll refund your original purchase price. Guaranteed. In our 11 years in business, and with thousands of crimping tools sold, only one crimping tool has ever been returned to us for a refund. Only one!"
I recommend it for use on terminals. For direct wire-to-wire connections away from the terminals I prefer to twist, solder and shrink-wrap. My electrical installations on bikes have been very reliable since I adopted these practices.
Moto
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If your crimps aren't holding, you're doing it incorrectly or using the wrong crimps or tools. Soldering can break down if subjected to vibration and/or twisting and movement.
If you are using stranded wire which is designed to flex why on earth would you solder it to defeat the very design the engineers put into the wire? Do you know more about it than they do?
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A proper crimp will make a better connection than solder every time. you do need the right crimp for the wire you have and the proper tool to crimp it. If the crimp has a strain relief, I see no reason to add solder. And for gods sake don't put any grease on the wire.
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If you use "double crimp" terminals and a proper crimping tool, I'm not sure how they'd pull apart, since the terminal is crimped onto both the wire and insulation.
(http://vintageconnections.com/images/Dsc00044s.jpg)
This type of connector is just about perfect. I like to use molex connectors too. Just make sure you use the right crimping tool and a good quality one.
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A proper crimp will make a "gas tight" connection. Adding solder won't make a difference since the solder can't flow into the crimp, it will only make the un-crimped wires rigid and fail under vibration. On an aircraft different size wire cables save weight, therefor different size connectors are required requiring different dedicated crimpers (expensive). With MC's we can get away with fewer sizes of wire and probably one good crimper. Check the Waytek website for good crimpers and quality terminals at www.waytekwire.com and yes, you can add grease to a terminal for waterproofing, but NOT before crimping. J�rgen
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I crimp most of the time, solder on rare occasions. However, I almost always use the crimp connectors with heat shrink and seal type wraps. These keep the moisture out of the new connection point, and provide a full insulation-to-insulation cover over the crimp point. Posi connectors are another good solution, but are not easily available and may not have the design required for every application.
Where I know I will need to have a disconnection point, I use Molex connectors with the appropriate number of posts/receivers. If it's possible, I will use a shrink-wrap sleeve to the back (wire) side of the Molex connector's nylon shield.
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All good advice.
I worked for a guy who told me "solder is to fix your gawd-awful bad crimps." So I learned how to crimp. I've done a couple hundred or more on the trike harness so far and a guy'd be hard pressed to tell them from a factory job.
When in doubt, look at what the oem did and how they did it in similar contexts.
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I don't solder to keep it from coming apart, I do it for conductivity. I only solder the tip of the wire, and crimp behind that for strength. And I crimp 1st, solder second. I do not have wires breaking off.
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When in doubt, look at what the oem did and how they did it in similar contexts.
Well, I'm sure you'll agree that the way the manufacturer did it is not always the absolute best possible way, but usually a good compromise of reliability and inexpensive assembly.
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If their method failed in a context and the method was the reason, then do something different. :)
Solder for connectivity -- mixed feelings on this. 'lecricity is a surface-dwelling troll. It only flows along the outside of the wire strands. A multi-strand cable has more surface area than a single strand cable of the same gauge. So if you solder multistrand, you're reducing the current path at that point. In a lot of cases this doesn't matter. But if the gauge is marginal for the load this can be a point of heat and fatigue (lending to a broken solder joint) or if some sensitive instrument is at the other end measuring current or resistence, you can get funky meter readings.
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On a motorcycle crimp the connections. But you need quality tools!
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad123/osteoglossum/IMG_9418_zpscvimqvxb.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/osteoglossum/media/IMG_9418_zpscvimqvxb.jpg.html)
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If you are using the proper gauge wire, there is no need to try and increase conductivity. There are published standards for ampacity for correlate the length of the wire run to the current the wire is expected to conduct. Even if soldering increased the conductivity in some manner, that increase isn't going to make any difference in what load you can draw from the source.
If the solder is going to make a difference, your wire is too small in the first place.
Look at your car's wiring. How much of it is soldered unless it runs to a circuit board?
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I did not mean that it increases conductivity. I solder not to lose it when things decide to start deteriorating. I have no problem with good crimping, I just have it in my head that soldering is another measure of help on a connection. I have a laundry basket full of old wiring pulled off mainly motorcycles. There are a lot of crimped only connections, and more than a few soldered as well, factory stuff.
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'lecricity is a surface-dwelling troll. It only flows along the outside of the wire strands.
Not an real issue for DC. And insignificant for lower frequencies.
'Skin effect' is a high frequency thing.
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I've been watching this thread for days, I can't make up my mind.
I use both methods depending on how I feel.
Soldering is not as convenient, running leads, having to insulate later.
I soldered the battery leads because I don't have a crimper large enough.
Soldering takes up less space.
Crimping is quick, I usually dip the wires in petroleum jelly before I crimp, especially in a wet area.
A soldered joint becomes brittle and snaps with any flexing whereas a crimp connection flexes over a longer distance and will withstand flexing 2-3 times as long.
As an apprentice we used to solder all large lugs, welding leads etc. there were no such things as crimp lugs and for the longest time the inspectors made us solder as well.
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You guys are amazing with your knowledge and experience. All your info has definitely clarified my understanding. The results I got with the crimp and shrink tube combo are great an look secure. With that and your info I'm slowly loosing my prejudice against crimps.
Thanks!
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You guys are amazing with your knowledge and experience. All your info has definitely clarified my understanding. The results I got with the crimp and shrink tube combo are great an look secure. With that and your info I'm slowly loosing my prejudice against crimps.
Thanks!
There are good & not so good crimps, just like most other things in life. But I don't see where you have to pay $100 for good crimps here. :smiley:
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This is one lots of journeyman electricians use, just a very simple pair if pliers, they will last a lifetime.
http://www.amazon.com/Klein-Tools-Insulated-Non-Insulated-Terminals/dp/B0006M6Y5M
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This is the style I carry on the bike and what I've used for most of the 200 or so crimps in the half-dozen terminal styles on the trike. It's a $15-ish dollar item. Used correctly it will duplicate oem crimps. It has a pliar nose. The cutter is in the upper section closest to the pivot. In the hub is a rivet/screw cutter/gauge index. It strips from 10ga to 22 ga, and does the double-crimp (contact and strain relief) on insulated and non-insulated terminals. It also does spark plug wire ends.
http://www.sears.com/kd-tools-electrical-wire-stripper-and-crimper/p-00994108000P?sid=IDx20140425xECNMPTL25
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to splice wires I usually solder, but always crimp end connections. Forgot to mention that. I suppose I could find a good crimp splicer but I like to solder and heatshrink for the thinnest possible cross section.
Would like to have some of those solder splices we used to use on Mil spec work, was filled with solder and glue so when you hit it with a heat gun it soldered and sealed and heat shrunk all at once. A hell of a nice connection.
I should search those out.
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A $60. ratchet crimper available from McMaster-Carr would be a useful investment and make reliable crimps. You can also order a variety of terminals (uninsulated) and shrink tubing there. The results will look original.
This is just one example from their website:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#69555k63/=xy4yxh
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to splice wires I usually solder, but always crimp end connections. Forgot to mention that. I suppose I could find a good crimp splicer but I like to solder and heatshrink for the thinnest possible cross section.
Would like to have some of those solder splices we used to use on Mil spec work, was filled with solder and glue so when you hit it with a heat gun it soldered and sealed and heat shrunk all at once. A hell of a nice connection.
I should search those out.
Try Aircraft Spruce and Specialty.
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I did not read the two pages of inputs, but as an Aerospace gent who is IPC 610 trained as well as the J Standard, I can assure you that very few solders can create stress risers as mentioned in the op. Only specialty solders designed for specific, usually high temp environments are even close to hard enough to stress fracture. Solder is your friend, it is encompasses each strand linking them, crimping smashes the strands together and initially does the same thing, but solder by its nature provides more likelihood that corrosion will not creep in like it can in a crimp joint. I use crimps, and I use solder, they use em both on the most complex aircraft flying, they just use the appropriate solution for the situation
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to splice wires I usually solder, but always crimp end connections. Forgot to mention that. I suppose I could find a good crimp splicer but I like to solder and heatshrink for the thinnest possible cross section.
Would like to have some of those solder splices we used to use on Mil spec work, was filled with solder and glue so when you hit it with a heat gun it soldered and sealed and heat shrunk all at once. A hell of a nice connection.
I should search those out.
Like these?
http://www.mcmaster.com/#9895k13/=xy59z7
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I was always told to make the connection mechanically secure first, like twisting wires together, then solder it.
Correct. Solder is not to be used as a mechanical connection other than component leads on circuit boards. Wire to wire, use a Western Union splice then solder and cover with heat shrink.
With crimp on connectors, after crimping, solder the front if open and the wire is exposed as on a spade or terminal strip connector, then seal the back with RTV then heat shrink.
Never had a rain related problem and I used to enjoy riding in the rain tremendously.
Tobit
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...then seal the back with RTV then heat shrink.
Specifically electrical grade RTV like Dow Corning 738, which does not have acid in it that corrodes conductors and contacts.
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A proper crimp also requires good quality terminals.Many of the split barrel designs fail to hold the wire securely after the crimp..And the endless discussion among electricians is which way does the tool face on the crimp terminal......
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then seal the back with RTV then heat shrink.
I've gotten where I use a bit of hot melt glue in my heat shrink tubing. It makes for a very solid and waterproof connection. And you don't need to worry about the RTV corroding the wiring. It may make it too stiff in some cases though if you need it to flex some.
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http://vintageconnections.com
got a kit from them. top notch, period
allen
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If their method failed in a context and the method was the reason, then do something different. :)
Solder for connectivity -- mixed feelings on this. 'lecricity is a surface-dwelling troll. It only flows along the outside of the wire strands. A multi-strand cable has more surface area than a single strand cable of the same gauge. So if you solder multistrand, you're reducing the current path at that point. In a lot of cases this doesn't matter. But if the gauge is marginal for the load this can be a point of heat and fatigue (lending to a broken solder joint) or if some sensitive instrument is at the other end measuring current or resistence, you can get funky meter readings.
FALSE. That is only true for high frequencies (think RF). DC, and low frequency AC ( ignition coil primary is pulsed DC, which is DC with an AC component) flow through the entire cross section of the conductor.
Just to put my post in context, I am an electrical engineer with 25 years of experience.
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That is only true for high frequencies (think RF).
Already covered it.
There is a reason it is fine to use solid core at 60Hz.
Only 25 years.... You need 15 more to catch up.. :shocked:
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Good thread. I never thought of the vibration factor when it comes to solder over crimping. Musical instruments (amps, volume knobs, etc.) are all soldered. I think it's to reduce crackling, buzzing and other static type noises. Anything automotive seems to be crimped, and now I know why.
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Already covered it.
There is a reason it is fine to use solid core at 60Hz.
Only 25 years.... You need 15 more to catch up.. :shocked:
Just a mere beginner
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his is one lots of journeyman electricians use, just a very simple pair if pliers, they will last a lifetime.
http://www.amazon.com/Klein-Tools-Insulated-Non-Insulated-Terminals/dp/B0006M6Y5M
I've been using this tool for a few years and am quite happy with the results.
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I've been using this tool for a few years and am quite happy with the results.
After reading all of this it's my opinion as retired licensed master electrician and contractor that some of you are getting carried away with details. It's like a convention of gov't workers "how can we design complication into a simple job?"I used the tool above to stake on thousands of termination is all sorts of conditions,some quite nasty and nothing failed. I've made up many wire harness for vibration prone motorcycles and none fell apart....Buy the tool, use De Ox grease , shrink tubing to help support the wire, get good quality terminals and leave a bit of slack in the wire. It's all in your hands....
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Another issue; if you are actually installing a new run of wire be certain to get automotive grade. The alloys used are more vibration tolerant than household stuff.
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Every connection is a good quality crimp connector with insulator. Only solder joints are in the handle bar switches and the LED's that I put in the instrument panel. All is good so far (knock on wood).
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/farmerdan/1972%20Moto%20Guzzi%20Eldorado%20Rebuild/8-25-2011.jpg)
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That looks purty purty purty!
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A good source of auto-grade wires is junk cars. I strip harnesses at no cost to the owner ( :grin: ) and then have a good variety of colors, hashes, and gauges for almost any task.
I prefer to use marine grade when I can afford it. The local marine supply has primary wire (solid color) in most common sizes. It's a multi-stranded, double-insulated wire with each individual strand tinned.
When I think about it, all of my diy projects trend toward marine grade connectors, shrink, wire, switches. etc. Unlike automotive and m/c, marine stuff assumes it's gonna get wet with all sorts of liquids for all kinds of time.
. . .and sorry for the misinformation re: electrons and the surface of a conductor. I had been taught that in what amounted to a HF instrument class and assumed it was a universal truth. :embarrassed:
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A good source of auto-grade wires is junk cars. I strip harnesses at no cost to the owner ( :grin: ) and then have a good variety of colors, hashes, and gauges for almost any task.
I prefer to use marine grade when I can afford it. The local marine supply has primary wire (solid color) in most common sizes. It's a multi-stranded, double-insulated wire with each individual strand tinned.
When I think about it, all of my diy projects trend toward marine grade connectors, shrink, wire, switches. etc. Unlike automotive and m/c, marine stuff assumes it's gonna get wet with all sorts of liquids for all kinds of time.
. . .and sorry for the misinformation re: electrons and the surface of a conductor. I had been taught that in what amounted to a HF instrument class and assumed it was a universal truth. :embarrassed:
:1:
Stopped buying auto wire and connectors some time ago unless I am desperate. Marine grade is the way to go. It holds up better, works better and is just better.
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After reading all of this it's my opinion as retired licensed master electrician and contractor that some of you are getting carried away with details. It's like a convention of gov't workers "how can we design complication into a simple job?"I used the tool above to stake on thousands of termination is all sorts of conditions,some quite nasty and nothing failed. I've made up many wire harness for vibration prone motorcycles and none fell apart....Buy the tool, use De Ox grease , shrink tubing to help support the wire, get good quality terminals and leave a bit of slack in the wire. It's all in your hands....
I think you are referring to this conductive grease product NO-OX-ID:
http://www.sanchem.com/electrical-contact-lubricant.html
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I think you are referring to this conductive grease product NO-OX-ID:
http://www.sanchem.com/electrical-contact-lubricant.html
It reads like a snake oil add
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I've used Penetrox in special applications that required it.
http://ecat.burndy.com/Comergent/burndy/cat/602945 (http://ecat.burndy.com/Comergent/burndy/cat/602945)