Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vasco DG on July 16, 2015, 12:24:05 AM
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Rollerised my Griso this morning. I thought it had been behaving a little less enthusiastically recently and sure enough the tappets were just beginning to fail. 90,000Km, not bad :evil:. Bloody glad I bought my C Kit a couple of years back. They are not stock her at the moment.
All back together and good as gold now!
Pete
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Good timing! :thumb:
That could have been expensive.
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It could indeed. I've just finished a crank up rebuild on Mark S's motor after it first did its tappets and then because it wasn't caught in time it fed wreckage through the bottom end. He now owns the most expensive Tenni Griso in existence! :sad:
Pete
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Is Guzzi still providing the parts at no cost for repair? I had heard at one point they were, although the customer still had to pay labor.
Naturally if they are not available, that creates a challenge. IF they are still replacing these parts, do they have to fail before they will even consider replacement?
John Henry
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Is Guzzi still providing the parts at no cost for repair? I had heard at one point they were, although the customer still had to pay labor.
Naturally if they are not available, that creates a challenge. IF they are still replacing these parts, do they have to fail before they will even consider replacement?
John Henry
all = yes
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Interesting. So one could say that the flat tappet 8V engine is more or less a 50k mile engine? Of course some will go longer and others less with out the roller upgrade. Not really a great recommendation for Guzzi in that they are more or less abandoning the owners to do the repair themselves. The parts provided in the case of failure is a nice gesture but if the kits become hard to come by that pretty much negates any good will there. Over all not cool at all. I still cant see just forking over the cash for a kit and replacement until my bike has the failure but its starting to look like it my well be inevitable if I put enough miles on it. Oh well, that's life.
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How did I know that this would be the inevitable result of my posting that my tappets had failed? Go and get a bloody bus pass. Fun comes at a cost.
Pete
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How did I know that this would be the inevitable result of my posting that my tappets had failed? Go and get a bloody bus pass. Fun comes at a cost.
Pete
And how did I know that I was going to get an invitation to ride the bus when I posted my opinion on how Guzzi handled this. :evil: Cant agree with you more on fun having its cost. I plan on riding my NTX like I stole it until it breaks or I do. Not worried about when either one happens because they are both inevitable anyway. I stick by my statements because when other people ask me about my bike and if I would recommend it I have to tell it like it is. Would I buy another Guzzi? Yep in a New York minute. I bought my 8V knowing full well what could happen and I like it enough to do whatever needs be done to keep riding it. I just hope when it does happen that I can get the parts I need to fix it. In the mean time it puts a smile on my face every time I ride it.
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I think the C kit is unobtanium here in the US also. And of course, I need a C kit.
The problem I have with the 'good faith' warranty, for me, it has to physically fail, before I get the repair kit. Meaning the motor is filled with bits of hard parts. I need a photo of actual damaged parts to start the parts order process.
And I have that POS Honda which had a cam fail 1 year out of warranty. They refused to help with any parts or labor there. So getting free Guzzi parts is a major step forward IMHO.
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I think the C kit is unobtanium here in the US also. And of course, I need a C kit.
The problem I have with the 'good faith' warranty, for me, it has to physically fail, before I get the repair kit. Meaning the motor is filled with bits of hard parts. I need a photo of actual damaged parts to start the parts order process.
And I have that POS Honda which had a cam fail 1 year out of warranty. They refused to help with any parts or labor there. So getting free Guzzi parts is a major step forward IMHO.
Shoulda taken the SP ....
Lannis
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Shoulda taken the SP ....
Lannis
:smiley:
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I think the C kit is unobtanium here in the US also. And of course, I need a C kit.
The problem I have with the 'good faith' warranty, for me, it has to physically fail, before I get the repair kit. Meaning the motor is filled with bits of hard parts. I need a photo of actual damaged parts to start the parts order process.
And I have that POS Honda which had a cam fail 1 year out of warranty. They refused to help with any parts or labor there. So getting free Guzzi parts is a major step forward IMHO.
Maybe a bunch of photos from different angles and with different oil spatters around would suffice? Surely there could be a repository of them made available.
Wait, I take that back, I didn't really meant to imply what I did. It's a mistake.
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Why don't you guys just ship the bad parts around from owner to owner?
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Oh, and as a counterpoint to all the 'Oh it's a 50,000 mile engine' nonsense some of you might be interested to know that at over 50,000 miles when I pulled the valves to inspect them the results were outstanding.
I performed the 'Pull Test' on the loose valves and the results were perfect. With my finger over the end of the oil seal pulling out the valve and releasing it it drew itself straight back in. The guide to stem seal was still brilliant. Comparing the stems of the valves with new ones the difference was very hard to measure with my good quality micrometer, it was microns of wear. Exhaust as expected showed slightly more than inlets but the cooling galleries are obviously doing their job.
If this was a 50,000 mile 2-Valver, especially a big valve Squarefin, the valves would be flopping about in the guides like a cock in a sock!
It's swings and roundabouts. No piece of engineering is perfect but to suggest the 8V is going to suffer some sort of longevity issue and is poorly engineered overall is facile and stupid.
Pete
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Pete,
Is this a similar problem as the failure thread you started a while back with the followers wearing on the contact surfaces?
Did you ever get the metallurgy back on the failed ones you sent off?
Hope the sheds not to cold.
Cheers
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If this was a 50,000 mile 2-Valver, especially a big valve Squarefin, the valves would be flopping about in the guides like a cock in a sock!
I've always found a sock to be a tight fit. :grin:
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Pete,
Is this a similar problem as the failure thread you started a while back with the followers wearing on the contact surfaces?
Did you ever get the metallurgy back on the failed ones you sent off?
Hope the sheds not to cold.
Cheers
Yeah, I covered it before but I'll PM you as I don't think I could stand having to listen to another five pages of blithering hysteria if I post 'em up again.
Pete
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Fun comes at a cost.
Pete
When I buy a brand new bike that I pay $14,500 for, and as soon as I roll it out the dealer's door it's worth $10,000, THAT's the cost of fun that I'm figuring. I don't figure to be rebuilding the motor about the mileage the wife's Subaru is due it's first service, or about the mileage that Ken Hand would be shifting his weight to the other cheek on a long ride .... ????
Lannis
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Watch out for Guzzi's that end in "O". :tongue:
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Lets see now. Vasco your bike was showing incipient cam failure at 90,000 km. So, one KM=1.609344 miles. 90,000 km divided by 1.609344 (one mile) = 55,923.40 miles. You stated that you did the conversion to rollers just in time to avoid expensive damage to your engine. How am I hysterical, stupid and facile to postulate that I could possibly be facing the same issue at some point? I never said the engine in totality would be junk but that it may well need the top end upgrade at some time to keep it on the road. I just hope that the kit will be available. Heck, maybe I should just buy one to have it on hand if needed. At any rate I am a die hard Guzzi fan with 40 years of brand loyalty and I still say that this situation is not a good deal for the marquee. Lets just hope that the roller set up is a lasting solid fix. Only time will tell.
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Watch out for Guzzi's that end in "O". :tongue:
Yep, those Eldorados were well known lemons from the get-go .... :laugh:
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Lets see now. Vasco your bike was showing incipient cam failure at 90,000 km. So, one KM=1.609344 miles. 90,000 km divided by 1.609344 (one mile) = 55,923.40 miles. You stated that you did the conversion to rollers just in time to avoid expensive damage to your engine. How am I hysterical, stupid and facile to postulate that I could possibly be facing the same issue at some point? I never said the engine in totality would be junk but that it may well need the top end upgrade at some time to keep it on the road. I just hope that the kit will be available. Heck, maybe I should just buy one to have it on hand if needed. At any rate I am a die hard Guzzi fan with 40 years of brand loyalty and I still say that this situation is not a good deal for the marquee. Lets just hope that the roller set up is a lasting solid fix. Only time will tell.
(Shrug.) you're welcome to your opinion. I'll stick to mine.
Pete
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I just hate it when stuff is bad for those big signs in front of movie theaters , poor things can't defend themselves :laugh:
Dusty
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While I fully expect the hand-wringing to continue it should be noted that the roller tappet bikes have been around since 2012 and I have yet to hear of one of them going tits no matter how much abuse they receive. Given that many owners seem to not cover many miles and get new bikes every couple of years my guess is that the problem will die by attrition eventually.
Pete
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I just hate it when stuff is bad for those big signs in front of movie theaters , poor things can't defend themselves :laugh:
Dusty
marquee complement stationery their there they're it's pour, better watch out, once pedantry starts its hard to stop ....
Lannis (yes I know)
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Roller cams both follower and rocker have been around since internal combustion engines were developed.
The roller rocker has advantages for sure being much less stress on the valve stem....oh well...nevermind.
Congrats on the conversion Mr. R, I'm sure your engine will love it..very sweet system.
We had a small block chevy truck that went 600,000 miles with roller cam on the ranch that never had the valve covers off.
mike
edit, roller rocker meaning rollers at the end of the rocker arm as in pushing the valve down!
And..1 km = .6255 miles
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It's not a roller rocker system, it's a roller tappet system but these too have been around for ages.
Pete
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marquee complement stationery their there they're it's pour, better watch out, once pedantry starts its hard to stop ....
Lannis (yes I know)
Pedantries are not suffering abuse at the hands of the uncaring , unlike the poor Naugas whose pores are apparently water proof in the poring rain . However the plight of the marquees , at least in America, is unprecedented in the annals of history . Mark my words , this is a sign of the decline of Western civilization .
Dusty
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Yep, those Eldorados were well known lemons from the get-go .... :laugh:
Got me on that one, but us poor Lario owners have taken it on the chin for years. Pete has a hand grenade he fashions accordingly. :wink:
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(Shrug.) you're welcome to your opinion. I'll stick to mine.
Pete
More than fair enough.
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Pedantries are not suffering abuse at the hands of the uncaring , unlike the poor Naugas whose pores are apparently water proof in the poring rain . However the plight of the marquees , at least in America, is unprecedented in the annals of history . Mark my words , this is a sign of the decline of Western civilization .
Dusty
Not the entire civilization, just the feudal system part. Long live the Marquis!
(yes, you clicked on a new page for this.)
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Rollerised my Griso this morning. I thought it had been behaving a little less enthusiastically recently and sure enough the tappets were just beginning to fail. 90,000Km, not bad :evil:. Bloody glad I bought my C Kit a couple of years back. They are not stock her at the moment.
All back together and good as gold now!
Pete
Wow, it really is the best of all possible worlds, huh?
If I were lucky enough to notice a "little less" enthusiastic performance and open up the motor before disintegrating parts fouled the bearings and oil passages, and lucky enough to have purchased (on my own nickel) the needed kit so that the non-availability of parts when the failure occurred was no problem, then I'd be happy too, I guess. But not happy about the expense and inconvenience at 55,000 miles. And not happy at all if I were not as lucky as you.
Makes me glad to have stuck with the 2-valver, and makes me resolve to avoid the flat-tappet 4-valve model if I ever make the transition!
Keep smiling, Pete!
Moto
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Damn spell check. :rolleyes:
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Every night before I go to sleep. Lannis, Oldbike54,rodekyll,Dusty..................
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Every night before I go to sleep. Lannis, Oldbike54,roadkill,Dusty..................
Hey , I am but a mere servant to the comedic needs of WG :grin:
Marquis , another word Mercury couldn't pronounce correctly .
Dusty
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Interesting development. Just took bike out for a gallop and it's going to need a new map. Although Guzzi use the same GRS8V-03 map for both flat and roller tappet bikes running open loop there are obviously big differences in how the engine is breathing.especiall y at the top end. Some logging work will tell the story but probably the last 15% or so of throttle, especially in the lower gears, it's like running into a brick wall! Feels like it's going lean but I'm not going to call that,I'll wait for the log data.
Pete
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Wow, it really is the best of all possible worlds, huh?
If I were lucky enough to notice a "little less" enthusiastic performance and open up the motor before disintegrating parts fouled the bearings and oil passages, and lucky enough to have purchased (on my own nickel) the needed kit so that the non-availability of parts when the failure occurred was no problem, then I'd be happy too, I guess. But not happy about the expense and inconvenience at 55,000 miles. And not happy at all if I were not as lucky as you.
Makes me glad to have stuck with the 2-valver, and makes me resolve to avoid the flat-tappet 4-valve model if I ever make the transition!
Keep smiling, Pete!
Moto
Which makes PERFECT sense! While I would suggest that if one can afford it buy a new roller tappet model or a second hand one if you can find one I would also suggest that if you're buying a flat tappet bike don't even think of buying one that doesn't have a full service history. While the factory recommendation of a 'Rinse' of the sump is absurd and at the very least the sump needs dropping and the filter replacing and preferably a look at the oil pumps if the damage has gone any distance.
It never really worried me because I WANTED to find out the how and why of why things were failing. I've done that to my satisfaction and I'm not going to argue with pinheads who have done no research. The only way to find out how and why stuff breaks is to test it to failure. Given the problem I was dealing with and the fact that for a long time I couldn't get a flat tappet motor to fail all I could do is gather data and I archive it. Once I actually started seeing the problem first hand I could get it investigated properly. Apart from the factory and maybe not even they, nobody I don't think has done as much research into this as I have and I've got to the stage now, as probably have some others, of knowing the tell-tale signs of failure long before the rattling starts. What I find amazing is that there are reports of people riding 8V's to the point where the tappet feet completely eroded away and the pushrods dropped through and smashed the camboxes! I mean how could you possibly do that? Apart from the noise the performance would of been abysmal and the oil would be so rapidly fuel diluted that the entire engine would be close to toast!
Pete
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What I find amazing is that there are reports of people riding 8V's to the point where the tappet feet completely eroded away and the pushrods dropped through and smashed the camboxes! I mean how could you possibly do that? Apart from the noise the performance would of been abysmal and the oil would be so rapidly fuel diluted that the entire engine would be close to toast!
Pete
I guess the same sort of Muppet that can ride a twin cylinder motorcycle around on one cylinder with the resultant 65% reduction in power and only complain about the fact it wont idle anymore.
Ciao
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Yeah, I covered it before but I'll PM you as I don't think I could stand having to listen to another five pages of blithering hysteria if I post 'em up again.
Pete
Looking forward to it, when you get the time.
Thanks.
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It never really worried me because I WANTED to find out the how and why of why things were failing. I've done that to my satisfaction and I'm not going to argue with pinheads who have done no research.
Your persistent attention to this problem and your sharing of your findings have been of great benefit to us all! Many thanks.
Moto
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So, one KM=1.609344 miles.
And..1 km = 1.62 miles
Ha! You're both wrong. 1 km = 0.62 miles! And 1 mile = 1.61 km. (Approximately.)
I hate dealing with this crap, and wish we'd all go metric. In the meantime I use 0.62 and 1.62 as my off-the-cuff conversions, so I can just remember one set of values after the decimal place, "62".
Doing this, I also remember that the Golden Ratio, phi = 1.6180339887..., is the only positive number whose inverse, 0.6180339887..., is zero followed by the identical values after the decimal. So I save brain cells by remembering 1.62 as approximations for both the Golden Ratio and the mile-kilometer conversion factor, and 0.62 for their inverses, leaving other memory locations free for remembering where I put my tape measure, if I ever find it again.
MotoG5 gave the right numerical answer for the number of miles corresponding to 90,000 km, though.
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Every night before I go to sleep. Lannis, Oldbike54,rodekyll,Dusty..................
Like counting sheep; puts you right to sleep! Glad to be of help ....
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Ha! You're both wrong. 1 km = 0.62 miles! And 1 mile = 1.61 km. (Approximately.)
I hate dealing with this crap, and wish we'd all go metric. In the meantime I use 0.62 and 1.62 as my off-the-cuff conversions, so I can just remember one set of values after the decimal place, "62".
Doing this, I also remember that the Golden Ratio, phi = 1.6180339887..., is the only positive number whose inverse, 0.6180339887..., is zero followed by the identical values after the decimal. So I save brain cells by remembering 1.62 as approximations for both the Golden Ratio and the mile-kilometer conversion factor, and 0.62 for their inverses, leaving other memory locations free for remembering where I put my tape measure, if I ever find it again.
MotoG5 gave the right numerical answer for the number of miles corresponding to 90,000 km, though.
Ooops,
Yes when I reread my post I caught that and changed it. 39000"= 3250 ' (rounded from 39.375 or 3281.25)
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Your persistent attention to this problem and your sharing of your findings have been of great benefit to us all! Many thanks.
Moto
:1: Second that.
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:1: Second that.
:1: third that
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Your persistent attention to this problem and your sharing of your findings have been of great benefit to us all! Many thanks.
Moto
I agree wholeheartedly with that.
I find the finding (if I can say it that way) that a modern street motorcycle engine was built with flaws that make it unlikely that will go farther than 50K miles, however, without destroying itself, unsettling to say the least.
I really appreciate the effort that goes into finding these things out. I also appreciate the oft-unappreciated effort that goes into publishing the results for all and sundry to see. I don't, though, agree that such performance is just part of what we should expect if we want to have fun with our motorcycle. These aren't race-bikes, or 80 HP 250cc screamers; they're overbuilt, heavy-duty Moto Guzzis .... and if Ambassadors and T3s had gone this way, Moto Guzzi really WOULD have successfully offed themselves in about 60 years from 1921, instead of still being around ... for awhile. ... :lipsrsealed:
Lannis
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perhaps some baseline-ing would help?
1. Are all 8V engines subject to this problem or only certain models (such as Grisos after 2012)
2. Does it make sense to go ahead and change out the parts at 50k miles rather than encounter a potential failure?
3. How does one obtain these parts and where are the reputable shops?
Reading the thread, I find these questions the simplest way to navigate this issue. I have no dog in the fight. I can understand how an owner would not be happy with this scenario. Fixing the problem, quick, cheap and easy will go along ways to mitigating it.
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perhaps some baseline-ing would help?
1. Are all 8V engines subject to this problem or only certain models (such as Grisos after 2012)
2. Does it make sense to go ahead and change out the parts at 50k miles rather than encounter a potential failure?
3. How does one obtain these parts and where are the reputable shops?
Reading the thread, I find these questions the simplest way to navigate this issue. I have no dog in the fight. I can understand how an owner would not be happy with this scenario. Fixing the problem, quick, cheap and easy will go along ways to mitigating it.
I'd love to hear informed opinions on those questions myself. I don't believe in dog-fighting, though, so I'm trying to figure out another metaphor .... :wink:
Lannis
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I hate dealing with this crap, and wish we'd all go metric.
No, we should never give up our last bargaining chip. We will all convert to metric when all the Queens subjects change to ride on the correct side of the road.. that would be the Right thing to do. poncho
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How about "I don't have any skin in the game"?
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perhaps some baseline-ing would help?
1. Are all 8V engines subject to this problem or only certain models (such as Grisos after 2012)
Actually 8V engines before approx. late 2012, when they changed over to rollers from the flats (why I made sure my 2013 Stelvio had rollers).
2. Does it make sense to go ahead and change out the parts at 50k miles rather than encounter a potential failure?
Yes, in my opinion, because of the "hard bits" that can get in bearings and oil pump and such in the bottom end that could compromise their life and be very costly to clean out or repair.
3. How does one obtain these parts and where are the reputable shops?
That's the problem, some of the correct kits are very hard to get in some locations (others may be able to shed more light here with their experiences) and I think we all know where "good dealers are (if I had one that needed major help, it would be hauled down to Houston :wink: )
Reading the thread, I find these questions the simplest way to navigate this issue. I have no dog in the fight. I can understand how an owner would not be happy with this scenario. Fixing the problem, quick, cheap and easy will go along ways to mitigating it.
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How about "I don't have any skin in the game"?
That's a good one. Except, with a 2009 Stelvio, I may have a LOT of skin in the game. Or chips on the table ..... (Hey!)
Lannis
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Darren :thumb:
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Aside from the switch from flat to roller tappets, didn't Guzzi 'improve' the quality of the flat tappets a year or two after Griso 8v production began? At the time I purchased my 2012 Griso, I was under the impression that the original 'problem' had been cured.
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Mostly we have converted , it is only us serfs that are still saddled with the illogical system based on the length of some ancient dudes arm :laugh: Maybe the aristocrats had twelve fingers back then :rolleyes:
Dusty
A hard transition for me but done.
So you think the length of some ancient dudes arm is better than the 18th century estimation of the distance from the equator to the north pole!!! BTW how did they know where the north pole was?
Oh, at the Top of course!! or in the middle for the flat earth types.
nevermind!
mike
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Wait , what , the Earth isn't flat ? Have the authorities been notified :shocked:
Dusty
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I'm often not convinced the factory got it right. :rolleyes:
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Those are good questions. I have 30,000 miles on my 2010 Stelvio. Am I good for another 30k? More?
No need to worry?
I'm not about to get rid of it, but If it is inevitable, I would like to plan on when so I have some control. Although if it has to fail first that all goes out the window.
I'm not smart enough to hear the difference in the bikes running, and wouldn't know what to look for when adjusting the valves.
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Aside from the switch from flat to roller tappets, didn't Guzzi 'improve' the quality of the flat tappets a year or two after Griso 8v production began? At the time I purchased my 2012 Griso, I was under the impression that the original 'problem' had been cured.
Original tappets were chilled cast iron and some were poorly heat treated and failed, (Once again I NEVER saw this problem in my workshop.). In about 2010 they introduced a new design of forged steel with a Diamond Like Carbon, (DLC) coating on them. This was pretty innovative as I don't think it had previously been used on production tappets but Guzzi has a long history of innovation and early adoption of new technologies so I wasn't *Surprised*. Unfortunately the choice was poor as it had been found that there were problems getting the DLC to adhere to a ferrous substrate but more importantly it is very sensitive to use of the correct lubricant and it doesn't withstand high impacts well. Poor servicing and the wrong or contaminated oil and failure is inevitable. The fact that the 8V is grossly over-cooled greatly exacerbates the problem due to degradation/contamination of the lubricant. Too wide valve lash adjustment leads to the opening flanks of the cam crazing the DLC creating further issues. (I posted some pics taken using an electron microscope up a few months ago where this degradation was clearly visible.)
Use the right lubricant, service your bike properly and the tappets can last a very long time. They usually seem to fail around the 30,000 km mark, mine soldiered on until 90,000 but interestingly when I did the swap my rocker covers were full of mayonnaise, something I have rarely seen before and I have no real explanation for as I have always adhered to a very strict regime of not starting it unless I'm going to get it really hot! Once the DLC is compromised it can fail completely in as few as fifty cycles!
As to what to do about it? Well I was able to pick the change in my engine's performance immediately and did something about it. Yes, I'd bought a kit a couple of years ago, (Not cheap, cost over one and a half grand back then but I didn't want to be stuck like others are now if my bike went tits and there were no kits available. It seems though that either a lot of people are ridiculously thick skinned and insensitive or they have the sort of attitude that says 'This is a newish machine it can't be going wrong so I'll ride it to death' and then complain that it's terribly broken. Sorry but I find this attitude bizarre! Anyway the tell tales are there I currently have a bike in my workshop that was traded in to Canberra Motorcycle Centre that I was asked to look at for a prospective buyer. I knew as soon as it fired up it had done its cams, told the salesman, he was skeptical so I just said "See Ya!" and started to walk away. His boss called me back and when the rocker covers came off I was able to show him the evidence and they (Grudgingly.) gave it to me to fix. It's been clogging up my workshop like a huge, black, turd for two months!
I do find it frustrating that the kits are out of stock, (I think we are currently looking at a six to eight week delay!) but that is something that nobody seems to be able to do anything about. Why I don't know. Batch production and low volumes I would guess? And now of course we have August looming on the calendar! That's life though.
At the end of the day to me the hassle is worth it. I love the 8V engine, it is to me something that is nowadays very rare in a motorbike. A motor that is raw, organic and visceral. It isn't the lightest or the most powerful power plant available, nor is it in the lightest or best handling chassis but for ME and certain others it presses buttons that nothing else available does. I'm willing to put up with a bit of inconvenience for that experience. If you're not? Fine! No skin off my nose. Go and buy something else but fer gods sakes stop wingeing and carrying on like a big girl's blouse.
Pete
PS the other really easy way to pick it is to sniff the oil.
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So to recap, the used market will fill up with used 8V bikes, new owners will be presented with mega repair bills if the parts are available. :coffee:
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If they don't do their research and expect someone else to wipe their arse for them? Yes.
Pete
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So the Piaggio offer is (a) they will pay the labor, and (b) the owner purchases the kit? Or do I have this backwards? I should probably go back and read the entire thread .... answer to my question is probably there(?)
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If the flat tappets fail within the warranty period? All covered. If they fail outside the two year period then the kit is supplied but the owner pays for installation.
If there is no documented service history by an authorised dealer then the full cost is bourne by the customer. The factory's decision is final and absolute.
Before anyone asks installation time varies depending on what kit is required.
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Hopefully, the 'dealer service records' requirement might be different in the USA. However, I did purchase the bike new at Rider's Hill in Dahalonega, GA in 2012. GuzziSteve had the bike set up for me, so I took her out and put on slightly over 500 miles in a couple of days, took the bike back for G.Steve to do the first service (valves, oil, filter, etc) and whatever else was called for on first service. I have those records. Recall on rear suspension and warranty on exhaust crossover and bubbled fuel tank taken care of by ClevelandMoto. Oil/filter changes (Agip 10w604T Racing Oil) at 530, 4811, 6718, and 9696 miles. Valves adjusted at 530(G Steve) and 6289 (me.)Current mileage ... just over 10,000 miles. I maintain my personal spreadsheet on all my bikes that shows date, mileage, and maintenance performed. Hopefully, that would suffice.
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http://youtu.be/iHsx1cvACkY
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The 8v flat tappet bikes through year 2012 are suspect at roughly 50,000 miles +or-, so what can a person expect from the roller tappets on the 2013+ bikes and have there been any cam failures on them?
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No they're all really shitty. I wouldn't bother with any of them.
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Fun comes at a cost.
Pete
Brilliant quote. Thanks Pete, I'll be using that!
Ken
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Everything costs. It just depends whether you want a Walmart life at the lowest possible price or you would like something a bit more exotic and enjoyable, different even, and are willing to spend a bit more.
In the U.S. A Griso costs what? 12.5k and chump change? Over here a 2015 G8 is a $22,000 proposition. When I bought mine eight years ago the cost was a bit more. (Factor in inflation etc.) I still wouldn't swap it for anything else available for the price or a lot less. It speaks to me, it's a fantastic experience and it's more fun than snorting un-cut blow off a Brazilian hooker's tits!
It's simple. If you don't like the 8V or like it but are worried that it will interfere with your walmartian obsession with 'Cost'? (sorry I can't come at 'Value!) buy something else but FFS don't try and say it's a shitbox based on spurious and ignorant scaremongering.
Pete
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[/quote] it's more fun than snorting un-cut blow off a Brazilian hooker's tits!
[/quote]
What the cost of this kind of fun? I'm just curious as it just happens to be on my bucketlist.
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Everything costs. It just depends whether you want a Walmart life at the lowest possible price or you would like something a bit more exotic and enjoyable, different even, and are willing to spend a bit more.
In the U.S. A Griso costs what? 12.5k and chump change? Over here a 2015 G8 is a $22,000 proposition. When I bought mine eight years ago the cost was a bit more. (Factor in inflation etc.) I still wouldn't swap it for anything else available for the price or a lot less. It speaks to me, it's a fantastic experience and it's more fun than snorting un-cut blow off a Brazilian hooker's tits!
It's simple. If you don't like the 8V or like it but are worried that it will interfere with your walmartian obsession with 'Cost'? (sorry I can't come at 'Value!) buy something else but FFS don't try and say it's a shitbox based on spurious and ignorant scaremongering.
Pete
This is a fair opinion.
For years I have followed this forum but have not owned a Guzzi. I nearly purchased a 2009 Stelvio and then a 2009 Griso but instead purchased a used Triumph which has been a barrel of fun. I am getting older and want to purchase most likely my last cycle and have concluded that it might possibly be a 2013+ Griso, it has all I want and need and desire.
I have knowledge of all the warts of the Griso starting with the 4v and now with the 8v. and there are a few. But yet I seem to be willing to overlook them in want for an unique naked bike that I can work on myself and ride with pride.
I am what in America is called "working poor", no need to elaborate but it demands that I do my research and be frugal when I purchase.
So my questions stands. What durability can be expected from the roller tappet 8v motor?
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good thing i'm hanging on to my CentaurO with it's indestructible 8V :) Grisos always felt a little too sissified for my likes. :P :boozing:
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good thing i'm hanging on to my CentaurO with it's indestructible 8V :) Grisos always felt a little too sissified for my likes. :P :boozing:
We'll see who's a sissy once your oil pump shaft finishes wallowing out its unbushed running surface in the pump body .... ! It'll take a brave man to get enough money in one place to fix THAT situation if it happens ... :bow:
Lannis
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good thing i'm hanging on to my CentaurO with it's indestructible 8V :) Grisos always felt a little too sissified for my likes. :P :boozing:
One of the reasons I sold the Centauro and got the Stelvio is that the Centauro was too expensive to maintain. And many parts were becoming unobtainium. So even if the Stelvio has some unexpected costs, at least it won't become scrap as easily.
So far I have not had to replace the Stelvio's oil pump or belts.
That, and the Stelvio motors extra horses add to the fun.
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So far I have not had to replace the Stelvio's oil pump or belts.
Or grease the poxy drive shaft. Whose bright idea was it to build a shaft drive that required more frequent lubing than a modern chain, and which (according to the Book) needed replacing before a set of sprockets and a chain would need replacing?
Lannis
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One of the reasons I sold the Centauro and got the Stelvio is that the Centauro was too expensive to maintain. And many parts were becoming unobtainium. So even if the Stelvio has some unexpected costs, at least it won't become scrap as easily.
So far I have not had to replace the Stelvio's oil pump or belts.
That, and the Stelvio motors extra horses add to the fun.
Well that is the gamble I'm taking. It's not getting that many miles on it so the next belt change hopefully will be the last maintenance for awhile. Forks and drive shaft were done when the new bridgestones went on. As much as I'd like a newer 8, I can't justify the money for the amount of riding I'm doing now that we bought the travel trailer.
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Oh, and as a counterpoint to all the 'Oh it's a 50,000 mile engine' nonsense some of you might be interested to know that at over 50,000 miles when I pulled the valves to inspect them the results were outstanding.
I performed the 'Pull Test' on the loose valves and the results were perfect. With my finger over the end of the oil seal pulling out the valve and releasing it it drew itself straight back in. The guide to stem seal was still brilliant. Comparing the stems of the valves with new ones the difference was very hard to measure with my good quality micrometer, it was microns of wear. Exhaust as expected showed slightly more than inlets but the cooling galleries are obviously doing their job.
If this was a 50,000 mile 2-Valver, especially a big valve Squarefin, the valves would be flopping about in the guides like a cock in a sock!
It's swings and roundabouts. No piece of engineering is perfect but to suggest the 8V is going to suffer some sort of longevity issue and is poorly engineered overall is facile and stupid.
Pete
Are you saying that the 2v is a 50000 mile engine?
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(Sigh!)
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Around and around we go. Did I miss something?
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/missed%20ball_zpsbcrkxodl.gif)
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I've wanted an 8v Griso since the first year of production. I'm going to pick one up when they hit that aging sweet spot of not new enough to command top dollar and not old enough to be classic and the price bottoms out. I always read these 8v threads and lurk at the Griso Ghetto. I think the black/silver SE is dead sexy and someday I'll have one, it's a bucket list item.
Pete, it's already been said but again, thank you for documenting what you've seen and learned. This stuff getting archived will become even more useful when these bikes are getting long in the tooth and aren't "current" any longer.
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From reading this thread and the one related to it I've concluded the following:
My roller tappet 8V Norge may at some time between now and the 100,000 mile mark need some attention with a higher chance the attention will cost me sone money after the 80,000 miles on the odo but more likely not.
By the time such a thing happens I will either be thankful to have an excuse to get another or whatever is designed to replace it. Should MG announce between now and then that the Norge will no longer he made in any iteration, then I'll ride the last new one I can find before they are all sold and repeat the process except the the last part because I will surely have discovered if there is life after death.
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WRT the question of roller tappet longevity?
There is this bloke Tex who spends his life riding around Australia raising money for charity. For the last 18 months or so he's been riding a Stelvio provided by our importer.
I was talking to Daniel who had just done a service on it, it's a stock NTX with rollers. I can't remember if it was the 110,000km service or the 120,000? Only thing it needed above and beyond the usual oils, tappets, filters was a fork seal.
120,000 km in a year and a half and it needed a fork seal! What a piece of shit! :evil:
Pete
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Well done Pete I like the idea of getting the last mile and working out exactly why things fail but sadly I've missed what that was, can you tell ?
For others, esp those that travel far from workshop it may not be sensible to do same, once it has happened I don,'t think it wise to keep riding, far more damage may follow, possibly not covered by warranty,
Surely it would make more sense to change to rollers now, remove the pin from the hand grenade
Just my way, others may differ
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Well done Pete I like the idea of getting the last mile and working out exactly why things fail but sadly I've missed what that was, can you tell ?
For others, esp those that travel far from workshop it may not be sensible to do same, once it has happened I don,'t think it wise to keep riding, far more damage may follow, possibly not covered by warranty,
Surely it would make more sense to change to rollers now, remove the pin from the hand grenade
Just my way, others may differ
I wondered where you were. It must be exciting for you.
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[quite author=Vasco DG link=topic=77697.msg1221836#msg1221836 date=1437298398]
I wondered where you were. It must be exciting for you.
[/quote]
London right now, been riding in Europe, off to Ireland and IoM next week
Old dunger Tonti, of course, wish I could warn people of issues but they,ve all been addressed, many years ago
Proper exciting. Thanks
MH
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(Sigh!)
It was a legitimate question. What is your thought on the previous generations longevity? Guzzi neophyte here.
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It was a legitimate question. What is your thought on the previous generations longevity? Guzzi neophyte here.
You didn't ask me, but I'll give my opinion anyway. Hell, it is the internit.... :evil:
I have over 300,000 miles (not to be confused with this wimpy KMs. :laugh: ) on Guzzis. Over 500,000 on bikes in general. Over 200,000 miles on the 'previous generation' bikes. And many tens of thousands of those miles towing a large camper. I do my own work.
A: Anything can be broken. If you rely on dealers, you need a good dealer. If you do your own work, MGCycle, Harpers, etc., can often be better than dealing with Honda parts. I have a great dealer (RidersHill) and do my own work, so I'm great.
B: The older bikes are air cooled. The newer 8 V are oil cooled. ANY air cooled motor is going to run the exhaust valve at a higher temperature. ANY. When you get close to 100,000 mile, you should have the heads inspected, and maybe the guides lined. Again this is not a Guzzi specific thing, it is a tendency of air cooling. And a LOT of people have a LOT more than 100,000 miles on their air cooled motors without bothering with heads. If you need a 250,000 mile head, air cooled may not be the best choice. The new motor with the oil cooled exhaust has the potential for a very long life. We will know more in ten years.
C: I really enjoy the bikes. If the air cooled aspect means servicing the head a bit more often, so be it. Besides, they are generally VERY easy to work on. Just like tube versus tubeless. I will not reject an enjoyable ride because a bike has tube tires. I have seen people do that. Bizarre.
D: The design is decades old. The only real 'hiccup' was the 2003-2004 hydraulic lifter, (which I am running). They run. They are easy to fix.
IMHO and all that....
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I've got a long time to go before I hit 100000. I like the idea that I have the previous generation pushrod engine. Looking forward to check the tappet clearances for the first time.
Thanks for the info!
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Interesting development. Just took bike out for a gallop and it's going to need a new map. Although Guzzi use the same GRS8V-03 map for both flat and roller tappet bikes running open loop there are obviously big differences in how the engine is breathing.especiall y at the top end. Some logging work will tell the story but probably the last 15% or so of throttle, especially in the lower gears, it's like running into a brick wall! Feels like it's going lean but I'm not going to call that,I'll wait for the log data.
Pete
Any update on this Pete? Did you log it or do any remapping? I'm curious to know what the fuelling impacts of the Roller Conversion might be.
John
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Patience grasshopper! Mark is currently trying to finish off a 'Noisy Moron' map for someone and as mentioned above my bike is 'Hors de Combat' at the moment. Hopefully when my old shitter is up and running again I can get some logging work done as a preliminary to re-writing all the current maps to a 'Roller' configuration but remember both Mark and I have real JOBS and this stuff is both time consuming and costly.
Apart from anything else we both like our wimmins and enjoy spending our spare time with them as well as playing Leather-Clad God of Speed cum Nerdy Computer Geek! Whether the wimmins feel the same way is of course open to debate! :grin:
Pete
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Apart from anything else we both like our wimmins and enjoy spending our spare time with them as well as playing Leather-Clad God of Speed cum Nerdy Computer Geek! :grin:
Pete
Sounds OK! It's when you stop liking the "wimmin" that you know it's gone too far with the nerdy stuff! ;-)
I was curious because I've decided to rollerise my Stelvio (at my own cost). Not an easy decision because it's actually running beautifully. I know I could just wait until it becomes a necessity, but the idea that it probably will happen someday has started to bug me (and I'm nerdy that way! :-).
Most of my riding is long distance stuff, so when the cams do start to go, I'd probably be far from home. So I may have to hook up the logger after the conversion and see if it makes any difference on fuelling.
I'm curious to know what the cams look like after 23,000 km.
John
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I've got a long time to go before I hit 100000. I like the idea that I have the previous generation pushrod engine. Looking forward to check the tappet clearances for the first time.
Thanks for the info!
The rings valve guides cam followers and possibly the valves (stems) will be up for replacement before you hit 100 000 miles and you'll have probably been through two cam chains.
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Interesting development. Just took bike out for a gallop and it's going to need a new map. Although Guzzi use the same GRS8V-03 map for both flat and roller tappet bikes running open loop there are obviously big differences in how the engine is breathing.especiall y at the top end. Some logging work will tell the story but probably the last 15% or so of throttle, especially in the lower gears, it's like running into a brick wall! Feels like it's going lean but I'm not going to call that,I'll wait for the log data.
Pete
Did that tell anything ? Story doesn't progress far
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Haven't run back through the thread Martim but my guess is that it was a cam timing issue.
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Nope, just looked. My engine was too far gone. I was wrong. As I've said before it is only very small people who can never admit they are wrong.
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Not really what I meant, I was sure you said valve timing different on rollers, actually couldn't find post but think you were going to graph the cam timing to find exact difference.
Only cos someone asked me, thought if anyone knows it'd be you, mapping is done I know, but the graphing ?
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Sorry, misunderstood.
I graphed the flat tappet cams ages ago but haven't a clue where I stored the graphs! :grin: as for the roller cams? Ideal time would be when I'm building the single spark 1400 as all the roller cams are identical.
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Flat tappet vs roller tappet is making me crazy. In August when I bought my new, old stock 2013 Stelvio. The next week at the 1000 mile service the dealer told me it had flats and needed to be changed. He called a week later and said the Factory said it didn't have enough miles to be changed. His words when it starts making to much noise park it.
Well, I found Wild Guzzi and all the things wrong with a Stelvio and I began to question my purchase. But, I have done all the fixes for known problems and love the bike! Except for the rollerization. Reading this topic and nothing better to do with the dog at the groomer I pulled the valve cover to check for mayo, which there was none, and looked closely at the tappets. Aren't these rollers?
(http://thumb.ibb.co/cLeyyv/DSCF0696.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cLeyyv)
Because that is what is in my bike and if the dealer did a valve adjustment and doesn't know a roller from a flat than I must have been to the wrong place. What say the bright minds of the forum....rollers or flat?
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Paul, the '13s came with rollers and that's what yours appears to have. Checking the valve lash is child's play, no need to pay someone to do it for you. OK, if you just don't like wrenches...that's a different discussion. Nevertheless, the dealer does not sound like he knows much about the bike. That alone is a good reason to do this yourself.
Peter Y
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Run, do not walk away from that dealer and his "mechanic." <shrug>
Welcome to WG, BTW.. :smiley:
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Peter, I plan on doing all of my own maintenance and anything not covered by warranty. I just thought it funny that a dealer would plant the thought of something majorly wrong with a new bike.
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Point well taken Chuck and thanks for the welcome. This forum has been worth its weight in gold so far and I lurk a lot more than participate.
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Flat tappet vs roller tappet is making me crazy. In August when I bought my new, old stock 2013 Stelvio. The next week at the 1000 mile service the dealer told me it had flats and needed to be changed. He called a week later and said the Factory said it didn't have enough miles to be changed. His words when it starts making to much noise park it.
That's the oddest thing I've heard in a while.
1) The dealer owned the Stelvio but didn't know if it had flat tappets or not, never bothered to check. Maybe didn't know it was an issue. How can someone be that ignorant about the very things with which he makes his living? I'd venture to guess that EVERY 8V owner on this list knows more than that.
2) The dealer sold the Stelvio without knowing about flat vs roller tappets.
3) The dealer "performs the service", "talks to the factory", and still thinks it has flat tappets in it.
4) Then he recommends running it until the engine is destroyed ("making noise").
In today's world, I'm afraid that I'd have to consider every Guzzi dealer that did NOT use the best Guzzi market and technical research tool on Earth ("Wildguzzi") as a daily or weekly resource as unfit and incompetent to even BE a dealer ....
Lannis
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And people ponder why Guzzis aren't popular?
My guess is it's just had an oil change, nothing more. Give it a full service and see what has been missed.
Pete
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And people ponder why Guzzis aren't popular?
My guess is it's just had an oil change, nothing more. Give it a full service and see what has been missed.
Pete
Yeah. Probably a $400 oil change. :rolleyes: :evil:
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Point well taken Chuck and thanks for the welcome. This forum has been worth its weight in gold so far and I lurk a lot more than participate.
Welcome !
There's alot to read up on here! Many of us lurk :popcorn: