Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: leafman60 on July 30, 2015, 06:33:23 AM
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This has been posted before but I am becoming pretty seriously horned up to get one. I soured on the Motus but the Ipothesys is about the same money and I like it better.
Anyone here have any experience with these or seen one?
http://www.ipothesys.com/
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Miscellaneous/Griso.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Miscellaneous/Griso.jpg.html)
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No matter what it looks like and whether you like it or not it won't work very well.
Pete
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No matter what it looks like and whether you like it or not it won't work very well.
Pete
Hey Pete. Could you please elaborate on that? What makes the Griso platform one that does not work well? I have friends in Europe who like the Griso, especially with shock upgrades.
Some interesting video of the bike-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFFT_nJH4MY&list=PLVy8Z_z-WVp9ws6j2cS3ad7iTl1iNYlpt
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It's a bit head-down-bum-sporty. My old bones not likey. :laugh:
Do you have any specs? The web is chock-full of pics, but not a lot of detail. I did a quick add up of the kit prices. The prices for the subframes, rear sets and tank etc were missing, but all the other stuff added to approx 10,000 Euro. :shocked:
My Griso 1400 project looks cheap now.
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No matter what it looks like and whether you like it or not it won't work very well. Pete
I can see the reason for Pete's comments: K&N filters and shorty pipes. My 8V Griso ran like a dream after Beetle spent countless hours refining a map to work with the stock airbox and stock or Db reduced exhaust.
I think that bike is a work of art but agree with Pete that "streetable" would not be a term many apply to it.
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I can see the reason for Pete's comments: K&N filters and shorty pipes. My 8V Griso ran like a dream after Beetle spent countless hours refining a map to work with the stock airbox and stock or Db reduced exhaust.
I think that bike is a work of art but agree with Pete that "streetable" would not be a term many apply to it.
It's a stock engine subject to map tuning just like any Griso, Stelvio or Norge. Input I have from Europe is that it is, indeed, very street worthy and awesome on a curvy road.
I love the ergonomics.
Why will it not work well?
.
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If my numbers ever came in I'd be after it in a hearbeat.
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I couldn't give a damn what it looks like but I can assure you that it's induction and exhaust specifics will make it run dreadfully. This isn't a 'Mapping' issue, there are some things you can't change with a new map, it's the actual physical parameters of the engine, how it is designed, how it pumps and the harmonic factors that govern how efficient it is. The lack of air box and silly little pipes will ensure that there will be several points in its operational range where it's VE will be woeful. It doesn't matter how good your AFR is if there is only a weeny bit of mixture in the cylinder when the inlet valves close and the charge is contaminated by end-gas from the previous cycle.
Pete
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For Motus money...I'd consider this: http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/ace/configurator/
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I couldn't give a damn what it looks like but I can assure you that it's induction and exhaust specifics will make it run dreadfully. This isn't a 'Mapping' issue, there are some things you can't change with a new map, it's the actual physical parameters of the engine, how it is designed, how it pumps and the harmonic factors that govern how efficient it is. The lack of air box and silly little pipes will ensure that there will be several points in its operational range where it's VE will be woeful. It doesn't matter how good your AFR is if there is only a weeny bit of mixture in the cylinder when the inlet valves close and the charge is contaminated by end-gas from the previous cycle.
Pete
Pete,Pete,Pete, nobody cares how things run or are engineered these days its all about the look and the perception. When the rear wheel throws water straight at the air filter on a wet ride will it matter? hell no.....you'll just sit around drinking coffee till everyone leaves before you get on and cough and splutter away up the road.
Exhaust system?.....stying oportunity...nothin g more. Riding position?.....about your reflection in the shop window at the lights. Registration compliance?......not applicable for bobbers and stylisters apparently.
My suggestion to the original poster is buy one, you cant go wrong.
Ciao
PS. Checked the actual website and the airfilter now has a splash guard and the exhaust system has larger mufflers as well as licience plate holder and streetable accessories.
It adds up to around 8500euros plus the cost of the basic (?) kit and a Griso to start with.
You could probably make it run acceptably well for the stylers because lets face it if you actually want a cutting edge sports bike you wont be looking at a Griso to start with. So we are back to the original theme, built for show and styling about not for real riding. Is going to be a fat lardy slow uncomfortable sports bike (and thats what the riding position and styling screems) and you have completely destroyed the minamilist "GT" urban warrior theme of the Griso.
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What is wrong with the Griso as it is?
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What is wrong with the Griso as it is?
The Griso, as it basically is has been around for 8 years and the only reason they get noticed is cause there aren't many around.
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I couldn't give a damn what it looks like but I can assure you that it's induction and exhaust specifics will make it run dreadfully. This isn't a 'Mapping' issue, there are some things you can't change with a new map, it's the actual physical parameters of the engine, how it is designed, how it pumps and the harmonic factors that govern how efficient it is. The lack of air box and silly little pipes will ensure that there will be several points in its operational range where it's VE will be woeful. It doesn't matter how good your AFR is if there is only a weeny bit of mixture in the cylinder when the inlet valves close and the charge is contaminated by end-gas from the previous cycle.
Pete
????ummm??... Yeah.. Like you said.... My AFR was All Frigg'n Right then it went woeful on me. And the VE.* ChaH! mine bites. Dude... radical rims though.
(can we switch back to English? .. have no idea WTF you are talking about. .... really... none.)
I will say that the bike is absolutely gorgeous even if in a living-room-centre-piece kind of way.
Give me/sell me a Lemans III in white; 900ss got nothing on that.
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What is wrong with the Griso as it is?
For me; the seat sucks. Good for about twenty minutes.
Stock suspension is dialed in way too off for a 160lb weeny like me. 95% of the riders will need adjustment - but this is easily fixed by a pro. And cheap!
For taller guys (or guys with well endowed inseam) find the pegs are too high.
Stock mapping is not bad (from 2012 on ward; but subject to opinion, I found it OK) but can be improved - cheaply - thanks to folks like beetle and Pete.
They don't make the green tenni version anymore so that is a problem........ :BEER
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A quote from another forum:
Some folks want BIG, BAD, LOUD bikes and don't give a rat's ass about anything other than bragging rights and $$$ they have spent.
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The Griso, as it basically is has been around for 8 years and the only reason they get noticed is cause there aren't many around.
So is it about getting noticed or having a decent motorcycle that does what it'd designed to do.
I look at shows from the states on cars and bikes and figure it must be an easy place to run a business because you seem to be able to sell any old rubbish as long as it fits the one major criterior....it has to be "different".
Doesnt matter if its complete and total rubbish technically and/or dynamically as long as its "different" and the Europeans are catching on by the number that seem to either be moving over there to conduct business or selling into the US market.
Am I missing something?
Ciao
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Dave, don't seem to be getting much love here. It must be hell to have a pocket full of money with nothing with nothing to throw it at.
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It's got nothing to do with Dave. He can buy whatever floats his boat. It's the crappy, piss-poor engineering and snake oil that pisses me off. While I think that bike is about as ugly as a hat full of farty arseholes what offends me is it won't work very well. It annoys the living day lights out of me it's being promoted as a 'Performance' vehicle when really it is the motorcycle equivalent of a performing seal! A performing seal that's had one flipper surgically removed and is expected to balance a deflated ball on its nose!
Pete
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Well, aesthetics can be a matter of taste...yet industrial design has rules. I respect, though don't know enough, about the latter to pass judgment on the Ipothesys. No matter what, I wouldn't get so emotional about it. I guess due to my business I see a lot of aesthetic crimes done with boats that make me scream- so I can understand Pete's emotional outburst (we all know that he is a sensitive man).
The most interesting bit to me was Pete's comment on airboxes. I never understood the technical reason behind them. Still not sure I get it, but it seems to make sense.
Phil, don't even start to whine about people's taste in the states. It has nothing to do with if you are correct (which I don't think you are), it has to do with decent manners and being that Euro twat who believes that xenophobia and political correctness stops when it comes to making offensive generalizations about the US.
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(https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1380792_651447338209263_539441274_n.jpg?oh=7b9d9d10eefd3b9099ba4d5a956bdb01&oe=5639A3CF)
(https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/68090_501320223221976_1941763363_n.jpg?oh=2bf2af8619534cbb4dbe070b4f47ff5e&oe=564A6832)
Teo Lammers has put one of these kits together and I would contact them about what they thought about the bike and how it performs.
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Double Butt Fugly
:boozing:
Stuff a K&N in a few inches from the grit of the rear wheel. :shocked:
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That's odd. The graph shows more torque than stock at a LOWER rpm. I would have guessed a loss of torque and more top end hp... Maybe I'm not reading it right? :popcorn:
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This has been posted before but I am becoming pretty seriously horned up to get one. I soured on the Motus but the Ipothesys is about the same money and I like it better.
I sorta like Ipothesys, too. But with a Griso being $12490 and a Motus being @$35000, I'm really wondering what they've done to the Griso to make it cost as much as a Motus.
Seriously. Three times the price of a Griso for an Ipothesys?
If I had the cash, I think I'd take another look at the Motus.
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I love this looks. Can't speak to the engineering, as im not an engineer... tho none of the people bashing it in this thread are engineers either and that doesn't seem to slow them down a bit in claiming that it hasn't been properly engineered :boozing:
If you like it, buy it... whats the worst that can happen? You spend a bunch of money on it, they spend hours and more money 'sorting out' any niggling issues?? And then sell it and lose a little money on the deal?? That sounds like Guzzi ownership!
I'd buy it and ride the wheels off...
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Where can I find the fairing?
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Here is a Griso in Wisconsin with the Ipothesys exhaust and relocated oil cooler:
(https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/10382065_763101287046141_1065080013936138744_o.jpg)
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Expensive, impractical and flawed? Yes. But it is beautiful. That fairing is stunning. Seat is too thin, and the tail stops too soon, but all in all it is beautiful. I would put that fairing on a Griso, if it fit...
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Maybe someone has a sound track to upload or link to of the Ipothesys running> I listened to the Motus and the run by was awesome. The revs were disappointing because it seems like they recorded in some warehouse to make it sound better, sounds bland.
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I think that is a beautiful bike. It seems to pay homage to the MGS-01 and Daytona 1100 sport yet still be it's own thing. It's been styled very well, and when they're boosting peak HP by 20 and bringing the peak HP down to 5k rpm... I bet that's a lot of fun to ride.
Would I buy one though? Only if I had more money than what I knew what to do with, that looks about as comfortable as sitting on a 2x4. And only after I'd bought a Bimota Tesi 3D.
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I think that is a beautiful bike. It seems to pay homage to the MGS-01 and Daytona 1100 sport yet still be it's own thing. It's been styled very well, and when they're boosting peak HP by 20 and bringing the peak HP down to 5k rpm... I bet that's a lot of fun to ride.
Would I buy one though? Only if I had more money than what I knew what to do with, that looks about as comfortable as sitting on a 2x4. And only after I'd bought a Bimota Tesi 3D.
I think that graph is the torque curve. Either that or it makes outstanding HP just off idle!
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I think that graph is the torque curve. Either that or it makes outstanding HP just off idle!
(https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/378967_501319826555349_1370771131_n.jpg?oh=efca3629a346c78303bd7c44be9298b2&oe=564D6E81)
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Er, I can get similar results just properly mapping a stock Griso, but still maintain the top end power. I'd suggest the stock Griso curve is just what it seems to be. Stock bike, stock map.
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Yes. Stock bike and map would be my guess. Reasonably accurate dyno too depending on temperature and altitude. Every *Healthy* stock 8V I've dynoed (At 800M altitude and usually about 30*C) has stuck out 96 on the button at the rear wheel. Highest I've seen was 104.8 from my bike but the dyno has been recalibrated since then. Mark and my bikes were both puting out about a hundred last time we went there. I can't see anything to crow about in that chart which doesn't surprise me as the intake and exhaust systems are all wrong.
Pete
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"The most interesting bit to me was Pete's comment on airboxes. I never understood the technical reason behind them. Still not sure I get it, but it seems to make sense"
It's driveabilty. You get your best control over air/fuel mixtures when you have available an adequate source of fairly calm air with as little turbulence as possible. Those pleated filters look good, but I've always found them to bothered greatly by crosswinds, turbulence from large trucks, etc. Look at the airbox on a stock Cal II. That big old proboscis wasn't engineered like that for fun. And if you are oiling those pleated K&N types, there's another variable, how much is just right and how can you get it oiled the exact same every time? If I'm not using a stock airbox, I'm fiddling with a dense foam pod, no oil.
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I've been away and not able to follow this thread.
Some of the responses don't surprise me, lol.
1. This who consider the Ipothesys ugly- fair game. You cannot argue aesthetics. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
2. Those arguing pseudo-engineering comments about the bike not working are displaced by reality. I've had input back from TLM as
well as others in Europe. Blackkat has posted one of the dyno runs. The bike handles and performs well with the mods made and the tuning supplied by Ipothesys.
The Ipothesys is not intended to be a utilitarian type bike. If we judged a machine strictly on those terms, we may all be riding an Aprilia Mana! lol.
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Miscellaneous/Ipothesys_Aria_V12_9.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Miscellaneous/Ipothesys_Aria_V12_9.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Miscellaneous/Ipothesys_Aria_V12_-1.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Miscellaneous/Ipothesys_Aria_V12_-1.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Miscellaneous/Ipothesis%20Motorcycle%20Aria%20V12%20-2.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Miscellaneous/Ipothesis%20Motorcycle%20Aria%20V12%20-2.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Miscellaneous/Ipothesys_Aria_V12_13.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Miscellaneous/Ipothesys_Aria_V12_13.jpg.html)
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Don't listen to us leafman. Our opinions only matter to one person - ourselves.
If you want one, buy it!
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On another note, which exhaust were those dyno runs done with? There seems to be two different exhausts.
This one:
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Miscellaneous/Ipothesys_Aria_V12_-1.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Miscellaneous/Ipothesys_Aria_V12_-1.jpg.html)
Is noticeably different than this one:
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Miscellaneous/Ipothesys_Aria_V12_13.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Miscellaneous/Ipothesys_Aria_V12_13.jpg.html)
Each will produce a completely different torque curve. :rolleyes:
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(https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/199524_476833345670664_162167768_n.jpg?oh=6ed4f902bf85b4dbaa5b8da618260bf8&oe=560F03EF)
It doesn't say what mufflers were on the bike for the above run.
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Doesn't matter. The engine was tuned for any variation in exhaust shown. Some of those pipes were the early prototypes.
The thing runs like a scalded dog. Very good on the track too.
The greenie bike is awesome.
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Leaf- personally, I think it looks fabulous. White or tenni- it is unique, yet still not identifiably Italian.
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Leaf- personally, I think it looks fabulous. White or tenni- it is unique, yet still not identifiably Italian.
Not Italian?
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Hey, thanks for everybody's input on this.
I have not decided for sure what I will do.
I am currently waiting on a response from the Ipothesys folks to give me a total complete quote with shipping.
I talked with them last week but I am thinking now they have closed up shop on gone on vacation! holiday!
Sheeze, I even got an email today from my friends at Teo's place who were feeding me info and THEY have closed up and gone fishing too. They're in the Netherlands.
If I go any further, I will update later.
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Two points: That last shot, the green one, oh man, starting to look good to me!
Two; I submit that the map must be different as the exhaust being split like that will negate the need to have an offset for the on cylinder due to the weird exhaust on a stock Griso.
Addendum: Torque curve looks great! It would be nice to have a ride report and direct comparison to a stock 8V (like I'd get one anyway).
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Tuning is a non-issue. Good lord. The thing is designed to work and it does. I've talked with people who have ridden one and it is phenomenal.
I was expecting to quell the thread but I just heard back from Ipothesys and they are working me up a deal that will be sent to me at the first of the week.
Yes, the greenie is stunning. I may go with that IF I pull the trigger.
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I sorta like Ipothesys, too. But with a Griso being $12490 and a Motus being @$35000, I'm really wondering what they've done to the Griso to make it cost as much as a Motus.
Seriously. Three times the price of a Griso for an Ipothesys?
If I had the cash, I think I'd take another look at the Motus.
The base Motus MST is about $31,000.
The Ipothesys should come in below that. Total price is dependent on what is paid for the donor Griso.
I'm thinking I'd want an ABS Griso and I don't think those are out yet, are they?
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No ABS on the Griso and I don't see where the pump can be put on the bike as it is, there simply isn't space. Only way I could see them doing it is to mount it in front of the engine a-la Capponord.
Pete
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Two; I submit that the map must be different as the exhaust being split like that will negate the need to have an offset for the on cylinder due to the weird exhaust on a stock Griso.
Actually, it's still a 2-1. Look again. :laugh:
Of course the map is different. You don't get a massive change in torque like that from just bolting in a new exhaust.
I'm thinking I'd want an ABS Griso and I don't think those are out yet, are they?
No.
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Yes, two into one, but their lengths are fairly equal vs. the odd plumbing we have.
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Hey Leafman,
Do you remember the early Griso styling exercise, Calibro or something?
I think more brutish to the Ipothesus elegance?
I can see that Ipothesus speaking to you. Please keep us posted.
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Hey, thanks for everybody's input on this.
I have not decided for sure what I will do.
The answer to your original question, apparently, is still "No".
Lannis
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Yes, two into one, but their lengths are fairly equal vs. the odd plumbing we have.
You still need a delta for the right cylinder. For any 2-1 system, actually.
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Firing spacing has a major effect on cylinder fill and therefore delta.
Pete
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(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Miscellaneous/Ipothesys_Aria_V12_-1.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Miscellaneous/Ipothesys_Aria_V12_-1.jpg.html)
I'll just assume for a minute that it runs well and the dash doesn't die. . .
LIKE
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The base Motus MST is about $31,000.
The Ipothesys should come in below that. Total price is dependent on what is paid for the donor Griso.
I'm thinking I'd want an ABS Griso and I don't think those are out yet, are they?
ABS will be mandatory on bikes in Europe in 2016. So mandello has to come up with a solution soon - Or it's the end of the griso.
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(http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad304/Calijackalbob/MG%20griso%20Ipothesys-5_zpsim6hoadu.jpg) (http://s946.photobucket.com/user/Calijackalbob/media/MG%20griso%20Ipothesys-5_zpsim6hoadu.jpg.html)
Looks wicked. To me it's all about the fairing, seat and tidying up the arse end. I like the relocated number plate coming off the rear caliper mounts.
Personally I love the stock Griso "siamese twin" exhaust. If I can get my hands on one of the 10 or so Grisos in Singapore I'd love to put the Ipothesys bodywork on it, but would probably just go for the cheaper option of fitting a similar bikini fairing off a jap bike or maybe a ducati 900 ss fairing like this.
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll199/mmoHamut/t-leman-2.jpg) (http://media.photobucket.com/user/mmoHamut/media/t-leman-2.jpg.html)
Leafman, to each his own. If you like it, do it. Screw those that bag it. You are the only one who has to love it. I guarantee you will get loads of attention on your bike if you do.
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You still need a delta for the right cylinder. For any 2-1 system, actually.
Interesting! Thanks!
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ABS will be mandatory on bikes in Europe in 2016. So mandello has to come up with a solution soon - Or it's the end of the griso.
I looked hard at the Kid's Grease O this weekend. I don't see a way of packaging the ABS stuff unless it is considerably smaller than what was on my Norge. Even then I have my doubts..
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I am waiting on a price for the fairing, screen, headlight, and handlebars.
http://www.ipothesys.com/portfolio/plastic-kit/ (http://www.ipothesys.com/portfolio/plastic-kit/)
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Another version of the Ipothesys will be an announced before year's end. No details yet.
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Not familiar with the term "delta" maybe American/Aussie language difference-what is it?
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Not familiar with the term "delta" maybe American/Aussie language difference-what is it?
O2 sensor = lambda probe = lambda symbol is the greek delta = delta probe = delta
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Not familiar with the term "delta" maybe American/Aussie language difference-what is it?
O2 sensor = lambda probe = lambda symbol is the greek delta = delta probe = delta
Lambda is the 11th letter in the Greek alphabet
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS0KXM0YkUZG14rVwVHxxmV13eZDV8L7TQcA774t6wBh3e9nKlBYw)
Delta is the fourth letter in the Greek alphabet
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTx6S3s7A7jY5Q6ezcfMW_MByMtg_1DR4sAyrXVuCMuygqWU3ND)
In the case of the below quote, "needing a delta" means needing "the variable" (information or input) from the cylinder:
You still need a delta for the right cylinder. For any 2-1 system, actually.
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Actually, 'delta' in this case means 'difference' or 'change'. The 'difference' in the fueling between left and right cylinders.
The left cylinder is the 'master cylinder' (tee hee), and the right cylinder has a 'delta map' to compensate for the effects of exhaust pressure waves and intake length.
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Delta is a math term denoting difference. E.g if the low is 2 and your high is 4 you have a delta of 2. E.g. You have several runs for top speed and they are all very close in time you can say the runs had a small delta. In this case, for the Griso, you could use the term "offset".
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You can get a damn fine education here !thanks