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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: argyllwinger on July 30, 2015, 06:51:05 AM
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Hi,
After more than a year of looking at the Norge, I recently sold my '93 Goldwing and '98 Fireblade and found myself a nice example of Guzzis big tourer, and I love it. I had read various posts here and elsewhere about the problems with 8v engines, so was glad to find a 2006/7 bike with only 5k miles on the clock. I have read also about snatchy throttle control at low speeds and this has been found to be the case, almost to the point of thinking I have a shaft or clutch fault. Does the software solution cure this, (and random idle speed) and if so, how easy is it to carry out?, dealer or diy job I mean. As I live in Scotland, we have only 1 dealer and I think even they don't shift many Guzzis, - I travelled to England for mine - 650mile round trip in one day and half of that on my trade-in 'blade! Also awaiting a pair of grip puppies (never required before of course on a Honda 4 or 6)!, and a rear hugger - rear suspension cops a lot of muck from our Argyllshire weather, but it's still one of the best places on earth for biking. Once I find out how, a post a link to a video on youtube of a local 'Norge run'
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I can't offer any help, I expect others will, but I wanted to welcome you to the forum and offer congratulations on getting a Moto Guzzi.
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Thanks, really enjoying the whole Guzzi thing. Think I must have some Italian blood in me.
Ciao.
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I'm another of the "no help" folks, at least WRT the "snatchiness," but some well-known Ozians or their knowledgeable disciples will likely chime in soon enough on some mapping answers. Given your distance from a Guzzi dealer -- something many here share with you -- suspect you'll soon be conversant with Guzzidiag.
As for the hugger, I too, have one on my Norge (and Griso), but have found them more cosmetic than helpful. In fact, even with one on the Norge, I had something (tar?) damage my after-market shock and added a "Shock Sock." See
http://www.traxxion.com/Vented-Shock-Sock-by-Traxxion-Dynamics/
More here on my own application to Griso and Norge, http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=51472.msg773210#msg773210, with some pix here, http://tinyurl.com/Garage-Bound-in-Milan.
Have to say that you must be a light fellow as my (and I'm not light!) greatest concern with my (beloved) Norge was the suspension, especially the undersprung and "undershocked" OEM stuff. Replaced that and couldn't be happier. Think many other "ample-sized" folks have had similar experiences.
Best wishes from the top of Virginia,
Bill
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Thanks Bill, being made to feel welcome to the family.
George.
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Hi and welcome. I fitted the shock sock from Traxxion Dynamics when I replaced my stock shock with a Penske 8900E from GuzziTech, also fitted the Matris fork kit from CarpiMoto and could not be happier with the way it handles. I love my 2006 2v engine, cannot go into much techno speak like some of the guys to explain why but it just reminds me of the Massey Ferguson tractors my dad had on the farm.
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If it has the HeBeJeBe's try taking all the slack out of upper throttle cable. Make sure it has just enough to turn bars w/o motor picking up rpm's.
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Glad you're happy with the Norge.
I must say though, if you picked a 4V over than 8V because of some posts about engine problems of the 8V then that was a great disservice to yourself. There are no engine problems with the 8V Norge that are of consequence thus making a 4V the better choice. None.
There was the usual hysteria at times, the sky is falling syndrome but that was just the usual panic you get on forums anywhere. The 8 Valve engine on the Norge is superior to the 4 Valve in any aspect that really matters. That being said, any Norge is a great bike for touring.
Just clarifying some things because this is how bad reputations about bikes get started. Someone reading this might get the impression that the 8V engine is a lesser engine than the 4V or that is has major problems, that is not the case
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I think you should feel good about the 4 valver as it has nearly a half century of development. It's not that the 8 valve is junk, it's just a bit immature when compared to the alternative. Love my 4 valve Norge.
Best,
Peter
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That is like saying someone's wife isn't exactly ugly but...
The Norge 8V doesn't have deficiencies anymore than any other engine and is an upgrade in nearly every aspect to the 4V. The same can be said of the motorcycle as a whole. The 4V is a great choice but not because of any problems with the 8V. The 8v was an improvement over the 4v in almost every functional area.
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That is like saying someone's wife isn't exactly ugly but...
Nah, what I'm saying is your beautiful young 8V Norge will benefit from a few more years of development.
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That is like saying someone's wife isn't exactly ugly but...
Nah, what I'm saying is your beautiful young 8V Norge will benefit from a few more years of development.
In which areas? Talking engine here.
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Glad you're happy with the Norge.
I must say though, if you picked a 4V over than 8V because of some posts about engine problems of the 8V then that was a great disservice to yourself. There are no engine problems with the 8V Norge that are of consequence thus making a 4V the better choice. None.
There was the usual hysteria at times, the sky is falling syndrome but that was just the usual panic you get on forums anywhere. The 8 Valve engine on the Norge is superior to the 4 Valve in any aspect that really matters. That being said, any Norge is a great bike for touring.
Just clarifying some things because this is how bad reputations about bikes get started. Someone reading this might get the impression that the 8V engine is a lesser engine than the 4V or that is has major problems, that is not the case
Amen to that. Bill Hagan has been very kind to let me ride his dear Norge on several trips while he led on his Griso. Bought his brother's 2012 8V Norge a year ago and there is a notable difference in power and suspension. The 8V in the Norge doesn't have the power of the Griso 8V, but it's still really fun. And I mean really fun! Roll-on from 5,000 to 7,500 will rock your world.
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Amen to that. Bill Hagan has been very kind to let me ride his dear Norge on several trips while he led on his Griso. Bought his brother's 2012 8V Norge a year ago and there is a notable difference in power and suspension. The 8V in the Norge doesn't have the power of the Griso 8V, but it's still really fun. And I mean really fun! Roll-on from 5,000 to 7,500 will rock your world.
Easily fixered. They can all, especially the roller bikes which I think all use the same cam, be made to behave virtually identically. Norge is just even more of a porker than the Griso.
Pete
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In which areas? Talking engine here.
What was the last thing you did to your bike? Change to different oil? Did you re-map? Change suspension components? (maybe don't have to as this was developed/improved on the archaic 4V Norge) Different seat perhaps? Slip-on silencer? K&N air filter? I believe product development efforts take many paths, and not just for improvement mechanically. Some "development" the factory may make might be considered good by the corporate types at Piagio as it makes the bike cheaper to produce (crappy ball bearings). Owners might argue this last point. In time, the machine "evolves" to become better, mostly due to ambitious owners. I refer to this improvement as "development". Sorry if I didn't make myself clear
Best,
Peter
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I also just purchased a 2008 Norge with 9,000 miles on her and I also was thinking something must be wrong with this bike. Great on the highway and good above 3,000 RPM's but get stuck in traffic as I did yesterday and boy was that fun. Very rough at slow speeds. I have been riding motorcycles since 1978 and have had many bikes. When I start her up cold she idles at 1,200 RPM but after she gets warmed up the idles goes to 1,800 RPM?
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I also just purchased a 2008 Norge with 9,000 miles on her and I also was thinking something must be wrong with this bike. Great on the highway and good above 3,000 RPM's but get stuck in traffic as I did yesterday and boy was that fun. Very rough at slow speeds. I have been riding motorcycles since 1978 and have had many bikes. When I start her up cold she idles at 1,200 RPM but after she gets warmed up the idles goes to 1,800 RPM?
Well it sounds like it's been fiddled with by someone who doesn't understand it. Is the paint still intact on the throttle stop screw/s? Where is the oil level on the dipstick? Are the throttle bodies balanced? What is the TPS reading on a closed throttle?
Pete
Pete
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What was the last thing you did to your bike? Change to different oil? Did you re-map? Change suspension components? (maybe don't have to as this was developed/improved on the archaic 4V Norge) Different seat perhaps? Slip-on silencer? K&N air filter? I believe product development efforts take many paths, and not just for improvement mechanically. Some "development" the factory may make might be considered good by the corporate types at Piagio as it makes the bike cheaper to produce (crappy ball bearings). Owners might argue this last point. In time, the machine "evolves" to become better, mostly due to ambitious owners. I refer to this improvement as "development". Sorry if I didn't make myself clear
Best,
Peter
As some wise person here told me, treat the bike holistically, not as individual components because everything must work together or you have a kludge (kludge is my interpretation). A well maintained 8V Norge will run as long as it's owner decides to ride it, not further intervention needed. I don't change to different oil, there is no need and seat of the pants and anecdotal information is worthless when it comes to that. I changed oil filter brands but MG isn't making the filter and it isn't specific to the 8V engine either. I had two that displayed poor condition and on that basis changed. It had nothing to do with the Norge itself.
My point was to clear up an innocent yet misinformed statement that the 4V engine in the Norge is a better choice than the 8V because of some reported flaws in it. That isn't correct on any day. Many Norge owners never change the map or anything else, they just ride it and have no issues other than maintenance and the occasional minor fix.
If someone says they found green goo in their oil a 1000 people rush home to check their oil, change the oil they use and then starts the discussion between mostly people who aren't engineers and repeat stories they heard from someone even less informed; it seems something similar happened when the OP decided to by the 4V over the 8V engine Norge. Any issues with early model 8V engines are now known and easy to check for, as with any motorcycle regardless of brand or model. So you check for those things and buy one that has had attention paid to it.
There are no fundamental problems with the 8V engine Norge that make choosing the 4V a better choice. None.
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I also just purchased a 2008 Norge with 9,000 miles on her and I also was thinking something must be wrong with this bike. Great on the highway and good above 3,000 RPM's but get stuck in traffic as I did yesterday and boy was that fun. Very rough at slow speeds. I have been riding motorcycles since 1978 and have had many bikes. When I start her up cold she idles at 1,200 RPM but after she gets warmed up the idles goes to 1,800 RPM?
I have a 2v Norge and it runs likes a dream. Like most well engineered devices all it needs is a good state of tune and the intentional smog related bodge removed.
I remapped mine, courtesy of beetle, and adjusted it properly. All is well.
PM me if you need more info on how to get this done but first look for the tutorial on GuzziDiag thread.
Hunter
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+1 on both what guzzisteve and Idontwantapickle say. A good state of tune and a stock 2V Norge should run pretty well. Throttle body balance, TPS reset, trims reset and properly adjusted throttle cables.
@Lash, +1 what Pete says. The Norge is the Discerning Gentleman's tourer, and is mapped as such. The Griso is a hooligan's bike.
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Amen to that. Bill Hagan has been very kind to let me ride his dear Norge on several trips while he led on his Griso. Bought his brother's 2012 8V Norge a year ago and there is a notable difference in power and suspension. The 8V in the Norge doesn't have the power of the Griso 8V, but it's still really fun. And I mean really fun! Roll-on from 5,000 to 7,500 will rock your world.
Goddammit man, now I HAVE to go ride one
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I bought mine before the 8v was available. I am happy with everything about this bike. There may be a bit more low end on the 2v engines. I would really like to have it geared a bit lower for in town riding, but otherwise it is good for all day riding at 75mph.
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Thanks for all the replies / comments, very helpful. I have taken the slack out of the throttle cable and it has made a considerable difference. Any comments on a grabbing front brake - like a disc ( I think a lot of you guys call it a rotor )?, is warped. I did read a journalists piece some time back that they had experienced this whilst reviewing a Norge so was kind of prepared for it but just wondered if it's just 'a guzzi thing'.
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Thanks for all the replies / comments, very helpful. I have taken the slack out of the throttle cable and it has made a considerable difference. Any comments on a grabbing front brake - like a disc ( I think a lot of you guys call it a rotor )?, is warped. I did read a journalists piece some time back that they had experienced this whilst reviewing a Norge so was kind of prepared for it but just wondered if it's just 'a guzzi thing'.
Your rotor may be warped, but there has been plenty of discussion here over the years about these "semi-floating" discs getting clogged with pad dust.
You can search for details, but the bottom line was to check for "wiggle" and, if stuck, use combo of heat and "persuasion" by tapping buttons with a punch or the like.
Once freed of pad dust, the outer disk can move more freely and, presto (in theory :wink:) arrivederci "warping."
Bill
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Floating disc?
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If you look at the disc you'll see it has two *main* components. The rotor that the pads rub against and the mounting *Spider* that bolts to the wheel. At the end of the *arms* of the spider between it and the rotor are circular *Bobbins* and the rotor should be able to move on these laterally in relation to the spider. This allows for expansion as the rotor heats up without the risk of the spider deforming.
Thing is the clearances betwixt rotor, bobbins and spider are all very tight, (At least when new.) so they can get clogged with dust and grime so the rotor can't move or 'Float' on the bobbins. Giving them a good clean with brake cleaner and spinning them in relation to the rotor and spider as Bill suggests may free them up and make the problem go away.
DO NOT lubricate them with penetrating oil, WD-40 or the like for obvious reasons.
Pete
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2v vs 4v...I love my 2008 2v it runs perfectly, smooth as silk no doubt and frankly the throttle response seems better to me than the 4v versions I have ridden. It's a little bit more challenging in stop and go traffic to be sure...but personally I like it better.
At any rate version 1.0 vs version 2.0 of the Norge is akin to someone saying they prefer a Porsche 993 to a 996 or a 996 to a 997 or a 997 to a 997.2. They're both great, just different, although arguably the 993 is better than the 996! :) Is one better than the other, it depends on whether what you are looking for to make it better in your view is available on the newer bike. Spec wise, things may be better...but that doesn't always translate to a better riding experience or a better fit or a better bike.
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My '07 Norge is the best and most trouble free bike I've ever owned, not to mention being the most fun bike I've ever owned.
The O2 Optimizer that I got from Todd solved the snatchiness of the throttle at the on/off position, or at least made it so minimal that I don't notice it anymore. Unfortunately, that piece of gear is no longer available as a stand alone unit.
The older (1st Generation?) Norge is simple to do valve adjustments on - much more so than the 8v, but you do want to invest in some software that will allow you to reset the TPS when you are finished.
The original suspension is definitely in need of some work. Again, from Todd and GuzziTech, I got the custom rear shock and progressive front springs with cartridge emulators. Changed the whole dynamic of the bike. It made me the limiting factor by a long shot. The bike will out handle me under any circumstances where before I was a bit worried on some not completely smooth curves.
I'm sure by this point the bike no longer has the Z6s on it. If it does, you'll feel much better with either the Dunlop RoadSmarts or the Pirelli Angle GTs. Both are a much better option IMHO and will add to your feeling of confidence on the road.
I added a Bill Mayer custom seat and Heli-bars to mine as well. The seat give me comfort on longer days but made the seat about an inch taller. The Helibars brought the original geometry back (some change in bar angle as well, but the height was the important thing for me), so I am good for several back to back 500+ mile days.
I'm up over 62,000 (99000 Kilometers) miles and still loving every minute on it.
I have not ridden an 8v as I understand all the little "features" of the early bikes have been fixed and it is much more pleasant completely stock.
Enjoy,
jdg
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The issue of the O2 'Optimiser', (A very bad idea in my book.) is typical. One of the things done with the GT re flash is that Lamda is turned off. So why sell your customers a device that futz's with the O2 sensor signal? Enquiring minds and all that..........
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The issue of the O2 'Optimiser', (A very bad idea in my book.) is typical. One of the things done with the GT re flash is that Lamda is turned off. So why sell your customers a device that futz's with the O2 sensor signal? Enquiring minds and all that..........
Yeah, I know, but for me it made a nice difference having a somewhat richer mixture at the EPA tested engine speeds. Perhaps it is all psychological, but the bike certainly feels better to me than a stock one. I have not had the GT reflash, just the original O2 Optimizer, so I can't comment on that.
jdg
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The problem with O2 sensor foolers is that the signal from the narrow band sensor is very crude. It may not be as critical on the 2VPCmotor, (Although my experience with my G11 would suggest otherwise.) as it is on the 8V but these devices can and do cause massive overfuelling at certain load points which can have disastrous and very, very expensive results.
When I tried one on my G11 its main effect was to throw up a 'Service' warning and put the bike into limp mode.
Pete
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Same results I got from the optimizer. All in the first 5 miles, so it didn't stay long enough to do any damage. Once I removed the code it tripped and cleared the triangle of death from my display.
There is no software needed to buy. Guzzidiag will reset the tps just fine for free. Then you can look for a tune to download.
To the OP, you need it set up proper. Valves adjusted or checked, a proper TB sync and the tps reset. You sync at 4k and again at idle with the air bleed, then repeat. For me it takes about three times to get it near perfect.
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Bill Mayer seat. NOW you're talkin............. .
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Thanks again for the tips regarding front brakes. Will try out your advice come the weekend.
George.
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The older (1st Generation?) Norge is simple to do valve adjustments on - much more so than the 8v, but you do want to invest in some software that will allow you to reset the TPS when you are finished.
Point of order: There is no reason to reset the TPS after a valve adjustment.
Carry on.
PS. I liked (preferred) the 2V motor.
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The procedure for adjusting the valves on the 8V is IDENTICAL to the procedure for adjusting the valves on the earlier 4V motor. The only difference is the screw and locknut adjusters are smaller and there are twice as many! If 'Small' equals 'Difficult' I'd have to wonder about your motor skills and vision..... :evil:
Pete
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The procedure for adjusting the valves on the 8V is IDENTICAL to the procedure for adjusting the valves on the earlier 4V motor. The only difference is the screw and locknut adjusters are smaller and there are twice as many! If 'Small' equals 'Difficult' I'd have to wonder about your motor skills and vision..... :evil:
Pete
I have not looked at the 8v motor that closely since I don't have one, but that is good to know. I like the ease of adjusting the valves without needing to resort to shims and the like. :boozing:
jdg
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The procedure for adjusting the valves on the 8V is IDENTICAL to the procedure for adjusting the valves on the earlier 4V motor. The only difference is the screw and locknut adjusters are smaller and there are twice as many! If 'Small' equals 'Difficult' I'd have to wonder about your motor skills and vision..... :evil:
Pete
Maybe the small equals difficult was in reference to other matters?
Just kidding, the laugh icon never works when you need it.
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The issue of the O2 'Optimiser', (A very bad idea in my book.) is typical. One of the things done with the GT re flash is that Lamda is turned off. So why sell your customers a device that futz's with the O2 sensor signal? Enquiring minds and all that..........
I used a spoofer (FatDuc) on the O2 sensor but it was just a dodge, at the time there wasn't a way for me to map it.
The worst thing about the stock configuration (to me) is the popping through the exhaust on decel followed closely by the uneven/lean fueling.
I removed the FatDuc and installed the map with the sensor turned off and also noted that on the map the fuel was zeroed out at closed throttle through most of the RPM range. No fuel = no popping. All issues addressed, no spoofer needed.
Did I mention it runs like a dream now? Well it does!
Hunter
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I used a spoofer (FatDuc) on the O2 sensor but it was just a dodge, at the time there wasn't a way for me to map it.
The worst thing about the stock configuration (to me) is the popping through the exhaust on decel followed closely by the uneven/lean fueling.
I removed the FatDuc and installed the map with the sensor turned off and also noted that on the map the fuel was zeroed out at closed throttle through most of the RPM range. No fuel = no popping. All issues addressed, no spoofer needed.
Did I mention it runs like a dream now? Well it does!
Hunter
I got the GT package (reflash, PC-V, Autotune, etc...) for my '07 Norge. The bike runs better then ever, (55K miles, so far...) No popping on decel, (just gurgling) and a delight to ride. :bike-037:
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Thanks again for the tips regarding front brakes. Will try out your advice come the weekend.
George.
Hang in there; lots of good advice here.
You're also getting a good dose of the same sort of thing that split the Church into Catholics and Eastern Orthodox - 8 valve vs 4 valve, something like how to cross oneself or something. I've got both kinds, and I'd never use the difference to decide which kind of bike to get ....
Lannis
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For the front brakes. I found a small bolt, nut and couple of washers. Thread them through the bobbin and hooked them up to my Milwaukee cordless drill, which is variable speed. Along with a full can of brake cleaner and went to war with it. Reversible so I can turn the bobbins each way. Amazing the crud that will come out of them. Takes a little time but makes a world of difference in freeing up the bobbins on the front discs.