Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Penderic on August 04, 2015, 07:09:54 AM
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"Manufacturers will be able to rely on such technology in order to keep within Euro 4 guidelines, if they're willing to invest the money to do so. It'[ highly likely that Moto Guzzi will follow the lead of Harley-Davidson and BMW. Whether Ducati does so for just a single model, the Scrambler, remains to be seen......."
http://www.therideadvice.com/why-the-future-of-air-cooled-engines-isnt-too-hot/
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/dog_fan_funny_zpsxh6ksmi3.jpg)
Not a fan of watercooling.
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I expect a well-designed hybrid water/air cooling design from Guzzi.
Harley-Davidson has shown that this can be done while preserving the characteristics of an air-cooled engine. In fact, the size of the water-cooling radiator may be no more than the size of the accepted oil-cooling radiators on many bikes, including the Guzzi.
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I expect a well-designed hybrid water/air cooling design from Guzzi.
Harley-Davidson has shown that this can be done while preserving the characteristics of an air-cooled engine. In fact, the size of the water-cooling radiator may be no more than the size of the accepted oil-cooling radiators on many bikes, including the Guzzi.
To be Honest I'd really prefer if they avoid a half arsed half baked engineering solution simply to try and appease some peoples vanity. People that don't want to buy a water cooled bike aren't going to buy a hybrid combination of the two anyway. If they are going to do it they should do it properly with a complete ground up design I'd suggest a Lemans/MGS-02 (whatever else you'd like to dub it) model line would most likely be the spearhead for it as people attracted to that kind of machine will be more accepting of non traditional engineering.
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H2o is not necessarily needed to pass Euro 4, the current 1400 is certified e4.
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Interesting that many accept the full blown electronics suite on a current Goose but balk at water cooling because it isn't 'traditional'?
No, I would not the water pump look of the old CX500, but, they could go water cooled and still keep the 'look'.
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for me it's not just a matter of water cooling not being traditional, it just looks like hell. plain blank water jackets and all that ugly plumbing. The water cooled duc monsters are horrible looking.
I'd rather have those cheesy looking fake fins on a water jacket and well hidden plumbing. No reason they couldn't do that if they really wanted to. but then again, as HD does it, the vast majority of heat is produced in the head so optimize your water cooling to take care of the primary heat sources and minimize it's impact visually. Sounds like a real winner to me to be honest.
But due to all the damned electronics, I'll likely never own a bike newer than my carbed 2006 Triumph Scrambler.
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Harley had to cool it's heads because they covered under the seat and not in the airflow.
BMW heads were in the airflow but got water cooling.
Looks like I am going in circles here.
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To me water cooling is a better path than the current critical super zoot oil needed for the newer engine longevity and a cooler system that has not been thought through being not engineered for all temperature conditions encountered. Water cooling could get the new guzzis back to the point where yak fat could again be the oil required and ludites like me may consider buying new again.
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Porsche is another who started with liquid-cooled heads. In race cars. And old-school 911 owners were just as anti-water cooling as any motorcycle people. They eventually got over it.
Those of us old enough to consider a motorcycle as motor + cycle and who like to see all the parts are not the current majority. When it's buried under plastic, who cares what it looks like? Same with cars -- with very few exceptions, the engine is now hidden under a plastic cover. Designed with no eye to esthetics, pure industrial function.
Ugh, give me bevelhead Ducks, Guzzis, Britbikes and for four wheels, Alfas, Jaguars, and old Ferraris and Maseratis.
cr
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....
Ugh, give me bevelhead Ducks, Guzzis, Britbikes and for four wheels, Alfas, Jaguars, and old Ferraris and Maseratis.
cr
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7720/16986456049_80c3724fc7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/rT32zT)IMG_6665 (https://flic.kr/p/rT32zT) by jay_snyder67 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97354518@N02/), on Flickr
:grin:
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Guzzi was thinking of alternates to cooling with water.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Guzzi_concept_04_zpsjkf0hkjw.jpg)
Looks like Mother Goose tried to find an alternative to the plumbing and big radiator look of a water cooled bike. Dont know if the looks are any better. :shocked:
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Computers AND a water cooled engine in a Moto Guzzi! Shocking.
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Moto Guzzi is already able to adequately cool the engine. Some water cooled bikes' engines run very hot and when you look at the temperature ranges they encounter there are some wild swings. Few motorcycles engines maintain a stable engine temp, including the water cooled ones. The uber tourers are better at it but then have so much mass they are more car line in the engine department anyway.
Your car engine sits in the middle of the temp gauge mostly, even in heavy stop and go traffic. I have yet to see a motorcycle that can do the same outside of the 6 cyl gold Wing. Harley's can't and neither can any of the sport tourers. You can idle a car engine for hours, a diesel for days and the temp needle sits there. Idle a water cooled bike for more than a few minutes and watch the temps. They aren't even close to being stable.
That doesn't mean it isn't good but it isn't a panacea either.
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Guzzi was thinking of alternates to cooling with water.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Guzzi_concept_04_zpsjkf0hkjw.jpg)
Looks like Mother Goose tried to find an alternative to the plumbing and big radiator look of a water cooled bike. Dont know if the looks are any better. :shocked:
You know that's just cosmetic crap slapped on a regular 1200 8v by Pierre Terblanche, right?
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Moto Guzzi is already able to adequately cool the engine. Some water cooled bikes' engines run very hot and when you look at the temperature ranges they encounter there are some wild swings. Few motorcycles engines maintain a stable engine temp, including the water cooled ones. The uber tourers are better at it but then have so much mass they are more car line in the engine department anyway.
Your car engine sits in the middle of the temp gauge mostly, even in heavy stop and go traffic. I have yet to see a motorcycle that can do the same outside of the 6 cyl gold Wing. Harley's can't and neither can any of the sport tourers. You can idle a car engine for hours, a diesel for days and the temp needle sits there. Idle a water cooled bike for more than a few minutes and watch the temps. They aren't even close to being stable.
That doesn't mean it isn't good but it isn't a panacea either.
My dumb little NT700V (Deauville) would idle for at least 20 min with needle staying put. Fan motor kicked in when you slow down to a stop. Must have been a big enough fan for the job.
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Are there any water-cooled bikes out there in which the manufacturer placed the radiator somewhere other than directly behind the front fork? I guess that would give the greatest air flow, but could you get enough cooling mounting a radiator in a more hidden area? Or hiding the radiator somewhere (under the seat? in front of the rear tire?), and using a small fan to blow air across it? Can you make a water-cooled bike without a gigantic square thing sticking out?
I'd be interested in seeing photos of any alternatives, or photos of what folks think is the best stylistic solution to ugly-radiator problem on a "naked" bike.
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Interesting that many accept the full blown electronics suite on a current Goose but balk at water cooling because it isn't 'traditional'?
For ME, it's NOT about tradition.
It's about:
1. Aesthetics - cleaner more simplistic lines.
2. Maintenance - no coolant to change periodically or to drain when doing valve adjustments, no pump, thermostat, or radiator, and fewer hoses to worry about replacing.
3. Need - my bikes all make enough power and run amazingly clean compared to bike of a barely a decade ago. I just don't personally have the NEED for any perceived benefit of water-cooling.
So I prefer to stick to air-cooled bikes, and will, as long as I can.
That's not to say that I completely dismiss the possibility of owning another water-cooled bike in the future... the Scout is probably the only current contender for that spot in the garage though.
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Are there any water-cooled bikes out there in which the manufacturer placed the radiator somewhere other than directly behind the front fork? I guess that would give the greatest air flow, but could you get enough cooling mounting a radiator in a more hidden area? Or hiding the radiator somewhere (under the seat? in front of the rear tire?), and using a small fan to blow air across it? Can you make a water-cooled bike without a gigantic square thing sticking out?
I'd be interested in seeing photos of any alternatives, or photos of what folks think is the best stylistic solution to ugly-radiator problem on a "naked" bike.
Something to keep in mind is that the radiators put off a lot of heat. it's bad enough for the rider with the radiator out front. If you put that radiator under the rider, it's going to be a warm ride.
HD has put it's radiators outboard in the crashbar/leg guards on its big touring bikes.
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Why do we like the look of the grill on a '32 Ford, '40 Ford, '49 Merc, etc, but we can't like any design on a bike? ? :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
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@ jas67 - yeah, that works!
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Those Frozen Norges up north dont need water cooling.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Ice-Motorcycle-Winter-Festival-2013_zpsdlo9p2tb.jpg)
:azn:
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Some radiator ideas from CPU hardware...
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/cooler1_zpsedf2qawb.jpg)
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/cooler2_zpswudvamoq.jpg)
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/cooler3_zpsfodyewl8.jpg)
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/cooler4_zpsbpg0emku.jpg)
Maybe use those spokes on the front wheel of a motorcycle as cooling fins? :boozing:
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It's a motorcycle, there is no better use for an air cooled motor that I can think of. A cleanly designed motorcycle has a motor that can take advantage of the fact that it is essentially a motor, with frame and two wheels hanging on either end, that being the case suits air cooling perfectly. Why muddle things up with extra plumbing and ugly?
In my mind there are few applications better suited for air cooling than a motorcycle, why F"ck it up?
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Are there any water-cooled bikes out there in which the manufacturer placed the radiator somewhere other than directly behind the front fork? I guess that would give the greatest air flow, but could you get enough cooling mounting a radiator in a more hidden area? Or hiding the radiator somewhere (under the seat? in front of the rear tire?), and using a small fan to blow air across it? Can you make a water-cooled bike without a gigantic square thing sticking out?
I'd be interested in seeing photos of any alternatives, or photos of what folks think is the best stylistic solution to ugly-radiator problem on a "naked" bike.
One reason you don't put radiators behind or in front of tires is because of things getting picked up and thrown into the radiator or if you have a fan there, the fan.
There are all kinds of ways to put a cooling system on a bike so that you'd never even see it. That costs a lot of money in design and also drives up manufacturing costs. At the sales volume of MG, that makes it kind of difficult to recover the costs unless you use one system across many models.
On a MG engine though, the generator cover could be extended to house a radiator, make it thicker so to speak and grill it to look unobtrusive. The big black cover is already there, on some models so is a large oil coiler hanging on the lower end. Get rid of all that and put a combination oil and water cooler and make it look almost like the generator cover. Few people would probably notice the difference. The rest of it isn't that difficult to hide, others have already done that work.
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I'd be interested in seeing photos of any alternatives, or photos of what folks think is the best stylistic solution to ugly-radiator problem on a "naked" bike.
Not quite naked, but pretty close ... I like the look of the rad on my F800GS. And it works well.
The rads on my dirt bike are well hidden beside the gas tank. That's more for protection than aesthetics tho'.
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Are there any water-cooled bikes out there in which the manufacturer placed the radiator somewhere other than directly behind the front fork? I guess that would give the greatest air flow, but could you get enough cooling mounting a radiator in a more hidden area? Or hiding the radiator somewhere (under the seat? in front of the rear tire?), and using a small fan to blow air across it? Can you make a water-cooled bike without a gigantic square thing sticking out?
I'd be interested in seeing photos of any alternatives, or photos of what folks think is the best stylistic solution to ugly-radiator problem on a "naked" bike.
Kawasaki Vulcan 900's have a decently obscured radiator. It's still in the front, but recessed between the forks and blacked out. There is a fan that blows air forward when stopped in traffic. It's bearable.
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Are there any water-cooled bikes out there in which the manufacturer placed the radiator somewhere other than directly behind the front fork?
I'd be interested in seeing photos of any alternatives, or photos of what folks think is the best stylistic solution to ugly-radiator problem on a "naked" bike.
(http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/200610/2006-benelli-tornado-tre--1_600x0w.jpg) Under the pillion seat
As in my previous post most of the objections are purely for vanity's sake.
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For ME, it's NOT about tradition.
It's about:
1. Aesthetics - cleaner more simplistic lines.
2. Maintenance - no coolant to change periodically or to drain when doing valve adjustments, no pump, thermostat, or radiator, and fewer hoses to worry about replacing.
3. Need - my bikes all make enough power and run amazingly clean compared to bike of a barely a decade ago. I just don't personally have the NEED for any perceived benefit of water-cooling.
So I prefer to stick to air-cooled bikes, and will, as long as I can.
That's not to say that I completely dismiss the possibility of owning another water-cooled bike in the future... the Scout is probably the only current contender for that spot in the garage though.
I agree somewhat on the looks and need. But, maintenance? There just isn't any to speak of. I am one who does not believe in flushing the systems on a regular basis so only maintenance was maybe a hose every 50-100k miles.
Yes, there are more parts and that means more possiblities of failure, but, it's no more likely to fail than the bevel drive on your Stone.
Unless of course, MG does a poor job of designing the system. :D
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My dumb little NT700V (Deauville) would idle for at least 20 min with needle staying put. Fan motor kicked in when you slow down to a stop. Must have been a big enough fan for the job.
If the fan came on then there was quite a bit of a temp swing. Fans come on not when the temps are normal but when they are reaching to higher thresholds and need extra cooling. Like I said, some bikes can do it, not that many. I've liked the water cooling on the bikes I've had that used it. One blasted more heat from the radiator than probably any Guzzi blasts from the heads. In certain conditions it was like a heat gun aimed at your legs.
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I agree somewhat on the looks and need. But, maintenance? There just isn't any to speak of. I am one who does not believe in flushing the systems on a regular basis so only maintenance was maybe a hose every 50-100k miles.
Yes, there are more parts and that means more possiblities of failure, but, it's no more likely to fail than the bevel drive on your Stone.
Unless of course, MG does a poor job of designing the system. :D
Well, you may not believe in flushing the cooling system, but in my career I've seen some pretty badly scaled cooling systems. And I've had a water-cooled bike stick a thermostat and start overheating. And I've patched a coolant hose with duct tape and a piece of exhaust pipe.
Like I said, it offers me NOTHING I need. There's literally no benefit in it for me, so why should I embrace it?
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What Chad said
"In my mind there are few applications better suited for air cooling than a motorcycle, why F"ck it up?"
Guzzi's have the jugs hanging out in the air stream, cooling heaven.
Do they make 150+hp no.
If they can still be Euro what ever compliant, then why would the spend the money.
I've always liked air/oil, thought the original GSXR was awesome thinking out of the square shit, for a Jap bike maker.
Harry
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then you have to worry about pump seals etc, hoses, thermostats, flushing, and if you own a BMW K bike, when they leak at the pump it goes into the oil from what I understand so you may not notice it. There was some such weird arrangement on those I recall.
But, to meet noise and emissions, water cooling helps, no doubt. Doesn't mean I have to like it.
I did always like the GSXR Suzis though with the oil cooling. The finning on their cylinders and heads were much finer than other bikes, looked sweet.
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then you have to worry about pump seals etc, hoses, thermostats, flushing
The CX500 Honda has the water pump mounted on the back side of the cam between the crankcase and the transmission. When the seal goes you get an instant oil emulsion.
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That's what I mean by screwing up the design. :)
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And you don't NEED water cooling on a bike, just as you don't NEED computer controlled ignition or FI.
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Every liquid-cooled motorcycle I've ridden puts more heat on the rider than air-cooled motorcycles.
The wind blowing across the radiator directs he warm air back over the rider.
My 1998 Triumph Sprint was really horrible. The fuel tank would get hot and so would I, from the waist down.
I really noticed the radiator heat on the Indian Scout I recently rode. When I pulled in from the ride and came to a stop, the fan came on and instantly bathed me in hot air. Not comfortable.
Despite my knees nearly contacting the cylinders on my Sport 1100, the heat is barely noticeable on all but the hottest of days. And, when stopped, I don't get bathed in the warm breeze from the radiator fan.
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Are there any water-cooled bikes out there in which the manufacturer placed the radiator somewhere other than directly behind the front fork? I guess that would give the greatest air flow, but could you get enough cooling mounting a radiator in a more hidden area? Or hiding the radiator somewhere (under the seat? in front of the rear tire?), and using a small fan to blow air across it? Can you make a water-cooled bike without a gigantic square thing sticking out?
I'd be interested in seeing photos of any alternatives, or photos of what folks think is the best stylistic solution to ugly-radiator problem on a "naked" bike.
The Yamaha Super Tenere has a side mounted radiator hidden away.
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I'd love to have a smaller version of the NTX but not just a tarted up V7 with 40 RWHP. One path would be a 500-600cc twin that is liquid cooled so the engine could produce more get-up-and-go (which also produces more heat). Circulate that liquid by way of an electric pump and put the radiator some place where it fits but does not look awful. Place a fan by the radiator to control the cooling.
Before you turn your nose up at the thought of an electric water pump, consider that HD is using one now. An electric pump has a bunch of advantages. You can put the pump just about anywhere. The pump is not connected to the oil system in any way. An electric pump can be run at a constant speed or variable speed if needed, an engine driven pump must be sized to cool at idle and may well be pushing the fluid too fast at higher rpms. When I had a G650GS (BMW 650cc thumper) there were water pump failures that were darn near impossible to cure so some owners tried the electric pump route with much success.
Peter Y.
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Just because a MG doesn't need water cooling doesn't mean it is a bad idea. If everything was based on need, the MGs would all look quite different. There are a lot of reasons not to make MG bikes into water buffaloes but all this stuff about seals and pumps isn't one of them. Sometimes the seals and pumps in water cooled bikes fail. So what, it isn't all that often and just because it happens on a BMW doesn't means it has to happen to a water cooled MG.
When, not if MG decides to move to water cooling, lets hope they get it right from the start and not need years to smooth out the kinks.
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If located and designed correctly you will get no more heat on you than with an air cooled bike. If not designed well, then you can cook your legs with an air cooled bike just as easily as a water cooled.
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I'm not saying liquid cooling isn't coming to MG, but it's been a loooong time coming. I'm not exaggerating when I say, during the late 80s, I read articles in the usual places that the end of the air cooled motor was not far off! The story was, air cooled motors just could not be made to pass the ever increasing air quality standards; sound familiar?
Thirty years have rolled under the wheels of many a fine air cooled motorcycle, and I suspect the end is quite a bit farther away than the sky is falling crowd would have us believe
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As soon as motorcycles are required to pass smog tests air cooled motorcycle engines will go away. California doesn't require emissions testing for motorcycles but when they do, that will go a long way to help change the remaining manufacturers that use air cooled engines. Those articles you read were probably making assumptions about the smog tests since that used to be one reason why they said all that.
MG likely has a design ready because they'd be really dumb to wait until a law here of there changed and get caught without a model to sell that could meet a new certification level.
People used to say a motorcycle wouldn't ever have a cat on them either. I was around then.
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They likely do. I'm just saying the end of the air cooled engine has been just around the corner for thirty years. I wouldn't bet the farm if I were you.
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I agree with Rocker in that it's funny that my water cooled bikes all tended to run a bit hotter than "most" of my air cooled ones. Having said this, the 2011 Stelvio I owned IMHO was just too hot for my tastes, the big Breva I test drove a couple times, even hotter. Reports are that the 1400 Cali turns out some heat too. Just saying.
I have trouble believing the whole "water cooled bikes are more trouble" argument since there are at least a zillion out there with 100k or more on them that seem to run fine. What I do believe is that there are some manufacturers who do it better than others and have less fails. But yes, it is one more thing that could fail or be troublesome if not done properly.
And once again I guess I differ from a great many in this thread in thinking that Guzzi should move towards it, not because of standards, or cooling, or modernization for modernization's sake; rather, I think they should do it simply for the potential power gains. Again, MHO here but I just think it would be in the interest of the company, despite what my heart might say. The Norge seems like a great bike. I know the Stelvio is a great bike. I know the V7 is a wonderful machine. I know they have enough power for me, but all three, especially the two former are quickly slipping behind in their relative classes with regard to power/weight as to almost be irrelevant from a market perspective - not that Guzzi is relevant in any market perspective, but they gotta make money just like everyone else. The V7 has remained a big seller and likely will for a while, but the Scramblers and soon to be released bigger Bonnie will have some say about that. Or not. I'm not an economist. And you know now that I think about it, screw water cooling.
:thumb:
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If located and designed correctly you will get no more heat on you than with an air cooled bike. If not designed well, then you can cook your legs with an air cooled bike just as easily as a water cooled.
My B11 bakes my knees and upper shins. I get WAY more heat on me from it than either of my water cooled bikes (2001 VFR800, 2003 F650GS).
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Perceived heat would have a lot more to do with catalytic converters and lean burn motors more than the type of cooling system used IMO.
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Bpray and Jay, the 1100 is an example of a poorly executed bike design with regards to airflow and heat. That particular bike showed cylinder head temps that were at least 50-75°F cooler than my EFI Harley Sportster. However, my Sportster was/is consistently more comfortable to ride in hot weather because the airflow better manages the heat with respect to the rider.
BpRay, the only water-cooled bike I've owned WAS a Honda. I'm not talking about them being less reliable, just that they literally have more components that require maintenance. And that is time away from my family that I literally have no need to spend for something that doesn't offer me any benefit.
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Are there any water-cooled bikes out there in which the manufacturer placed the radiator somewhere other than directly behind the front fork? I guess that would give the greatest air flow, but could you get enough cooling mounting a radiator in a more hidden area? Or hiding the radiator somewhere (under the seat? in front of the rear tire?), and using a small fan to blow air across it? Can you make a water-cooled bike without a gigantic square thing sticking out?
I'd be interested in seeing photos of any alternatives, or photos of what folks think is the best stylistic solution to ugly-radiator problem on a "naked" bike.
Britten.
Todd.
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Bpray and Jay, the 1100 is an example of a poorly executed bike design with regards to airflow and heat. That particular bike showed cylinder head temps that were at least 50-75�F cooler than my EFI Harley Sportster. However, my Sportster was/is consistently more comfortable to ride in hot weather because the airflow better manages the heat with respect to the rider.
BpRay, the only water-cooled bike I've owned WAS a Honda. I'm not talking about them being less reliable, just that they literally have more components that require maintenance. And that is time away from my family that I literally have no need to spend for something that doesn't offer me any benefit.
I still think the B11 was a great bike and even with that chrome paralever plastic thing, far, far more attractive to my eyes than its competition (R bikes) of the same generation. Oddly, when I think back the first thing about the bike that really, really impressed me was the handlebars. Sturdy looking. Big. Almost like thick reverse clip ons or something reaching up to me. I remember thinking man this bike is well made. Seems like both my test rides were on hot days so that didn't help.
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It was a great bike in many ways, but a complete miss at airflow related heat management.
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It was a great bike in many ways, but a complete miss at airflow related heat management.
:1:
I hardly ride it at all in the summertime, unless we get a freak, cool day.
Thankfully, I've got others to ride that don't bake.
Now, when the weather gets cold, then the B11 is the go to bike.
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I agree with Rocker in that it's funny that my water cooled bikes all tended to run a bit hotter than "most" of my air cooled ones. Having said this, the 2011 Stelvio I owned IMHO was just too hot for my tastes, the big Breva I test drove a couple times, even hotter. Reports are that the 1400 Cali turns out some heat too. Just saying.
I have trouble believing the whole "water cooled bikes are more trouble" argument since there are at least a zillion out there with 100k or more on them that seem to run fine. What I do believe is that there are some manufacturers who do it better than others and have less fails. But yes, it is one more thing that could fail or be troublesome if not done properly.
And once again I guess I differ from a great many in this thread in thinking that Guzzi should move towards it, not because of standards, or cooling, or modernization for modernization's sake; rather, I think they should do it simply for the potential power gains. Again, MHO here but I just think it would be in the interest of the company, despite what my heart might say. The Norge seems like a great bike. I know the Stelvio is a great bike. I know the V7 is a wonderful machine. I know they have enough power for me, but all three, especially the two former are quickly slipping behind in their relative classes with regard to power/weight as to almost be irrelevant from a market perspective - not that Guzzi is relevant in any market perspective, but they gotta make money just like everyone else. The V7 has remained a big seller and likely will for a while, but the Scramblers and soon to be released bigger Bonnie will have some say about that. Or not. I'm not an economist. And you know now that I think about it, screw water cooling.
:thumb:
Ditto, what BP said.
If Guzzi can build a water-cooled VTwin that basically looks like the air-cooled twin and with a radiator that is not much different from the current huge oil cooler, that's fine. More power will be the goal. The question is not whether anyone NEEDS more power. The question is being competitive in a market where way too much is just about right!
BP, if you had re-mapped you Stelvio, your heat problem would probably have been greatly fixed.
My '12 NTX makes some heat but not a repugnant amount. I've re-mapped it and I even wimped out and installed heat scoops from a Norge.
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More power will be the goal. The question is not whether anyone NEEDS more power.
Ever meet a HP you didn't like?
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Ever meet a HP you didn't like?
I have.
Seriously, I'm not kidding.
I've posted before about spending a week on press or loaner bikes. I've found myself on a 180+ hp bike in the twisties WISHING I was on a Thruxton or Smallblock.
I've sold bikes (most recently the Buell S3T which was pushing 100 hp at the rear wheel) because every time) I rode it I was pushing it more and more instead of just enjoying the ride like I do on it's 70 hp and heavier cousin (my Sportster).
I'm not saying everyone has to feel this way. I'm just saying there's a justification for companies to continue to make something simple and not chase the hp.
Hell, even JAPinc. and Ducati, and BMW have all just started to chase what is now considered the "mid-sized" segment of smaller 600-800cc bikes that they were more recently ignoring with hp and displacement wars. Hell even Harley has come out with a 500 and 750 (though the 750 does already make more power than their current air-cooled 883, but I bet that air-cooled 883 will continue to outsell it for some time, maybe indefinitely).
Again, not even saying MG shouldn't ALSO pursue water-cooling or a wet-head... I just hope that if they do so, they don't give up on the air-cooled bike(s) prematurely.
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Regarding heat given off, I've got two water-cooled, one oil-cooled, and one air-cooled that I ride regularly right now. I've had the misfortune to be stuck in slow to stopped traffic in 30C plus temps on all of them. The air-cooled feels the hottest by far, to me. Not an exhaustive sample, just my experience with my own. I've actually had to shut off the oil-cooled and the air-cooled on occasion in long stoppages due to getting cooked. On the water-cooled bikes, I hear the fan cycle on and off, but never seem to get too baked.
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Are there any water-cooled bikes out there in which the manufacturer placed the radiator somewhere other than directly behind the front fork?
Honda VFR and Firestorm. Both had double side-placed radiators.
(http://www.cyclechaos.com/images/thumb/d/dc/1999-Honda-VTR1000F-Black-1286-0.jpg/640px-1999-Honda-VTR1000F-Black-1286-0.jpg)
(http://www.bikefin.co.za/find/images/listings/listing_5294Honda_VTR_1000_new_1.jpg)
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Ever meet a HP you didn't like?
I chose my 87 HP Monster 796 over the 107 HP Street Triple R, or 112 HP Monster 821, or 135 ish HP Monster 1200, because it has the "just right" (for me) amount of HP. AND.... for the simplicity of it being an air+oil cooled 2 valve per cylinder bike. In fact, if it wasn't for the fact that I found a left over 2013 for the same price as a 2014 696, I'd have bought the 77 HP 696.
Any more would usually not get used, or would be a temptation to ride beyond my capabilities. Heck, sometimes the 796 begs to be ridden harder than I should.
Different riders have different wants and desires. Yes, HP sells, and I can't blame MG or any other maker from trying to compete for sales.
I'm very happy that there are bikes like the V7 and Bonneville around. I hope they can keep making them. Both sell well, so, Kev M. & I aren't the only ones who appreciate them.
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Regarding heat given off, I've got two water-cooled, one oil-cooled, and one air-cooled that I ride regularly right now. I've had the misfortune to be stuck in slow to stopped traffic in 30C plus temps on all of them. The air-cooled feels the hottest by far, to me. Not an exhaustive sample, just my experience with my own. I've actually had to shut off the oil-cooled and the air-cooled on occasion in long stoppages due to getting cooked. On the water-cooled bikes, I hear the fan cycle on and off, but never seem to get too baked.
I know it's anecdotal, but I've been stuck 2-3 times that I can think of off the top of my head in summertime (80-90F) stop-n-go traffic for anywhere from 1-2 HOURS and not HAD to shut down an air-cooled bike.
My buddy moved from PA to AZ nearly 2 decades ago and after a year or two of traffic sold most of his water-cooled bikes and replaced them with air-cooled bikes.
I suspect it depends on the bike and the design.
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Honda VFR and Firestorm. Both had double side-placed radiators.
(http://www.cyclechaos.com/images/thumb/d/dc/1999-Honda-VTR1000F-Black-1286-0.jpg/640px-1999-Honda-VTR1000F-Black-1286-0.jpg)
(http://www.bikefin.co.za/find/images/listings/listing_5294Honda_VTR_1000_new_1.jpg)
I've ridden my 2001 VFR800 on some pretty hot days, and do not find that I get baked by heat coming of the engine or radiator at all.
I have two air cooled bikes that do bake me, the Breva 1100 bakes me with heat off the jugs ( :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu ), and the Monster 796 bakes my right inner thigh & butt with heat from the exhaust.
All the rest of my air cooled bikes (V7R, Airheads, and some vintage Hondas + one vintage Ducati single) are all pretty good in this respect.
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I chose my 87 HP Monster 796 over the 107 HP Street Triple R, or 112 HP Monster 821, or 135 ish HP Monster 1200, because it has the "just right" (for me) amount of HP. AND.... for the simplicity of it being an air+oil cooled 2 valve per cylinder bike. In fact, if it wasn't for the fact that I found a left over 2013 for the same price as a 2014 696, I'd have bought the 77 HP 696.
Point of order, it looks like you're talking @ the crank specs.
If so the 696 is rated at 80 hp.
http://www.ducatiusa.com/bikes/monster/696/2014/tech_spec.do
and you got the 796 correct:
http://www.ducati.com/bikes/monster/796_corse_stripe/tech_spec.do
And honestly, the 696 is fun, but even IT tempts me to go faster than I need to.
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Anyone who's ridden a 2nd Gen Norge knows that MG practically solved the heat management problem. In high temps, even at a stop for long lights and traffic unless you are the shorts and sandals type, heat on the rider isn't a problem. Someone at MG really figured it out and did so with style.
They could easily stick a radiator on it and you'd hardly notice the difference. The rest of the plumbing any decent designer could make look like it was air cooled. If they wanted to do a water cooled bike, that would seem to be the best place to start, a bike with lots of cowling and fairing. Besides, ST riders would welcome it.
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Point of order, it looks like you're talking @ the crank specs.
If so the 696 is rated at 80 hp.
http://www.ducatiusa.com/bikes/monster/696/2014/tech_spec.do
and you got the 796 correct:
http://www.ducati.com/bikes/monster/796_corse_stripe/tech_spec.do
And honestly, the 696 is fun, but even IT tempts me to go faster than I need to.
I can always count on your for a fact check :boozing:
I was going by memory. The difference is even smaller than I remembered it being.
Yes, I can see were the 696 would tempt just as much as the 796.
The V7 and either of my Airheads are way better for commuting, as they don't tempt near as much, and thus aren't as frustrating dealing with the slow cars I sometimes encounter. :evil:
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The V7 and either of my Airheads are way better for commuting, as they don't tempt near as much, and thus aren't as frustrating dealing with the slow cars I sometimes encounter. :evil:
I just got back from a ride around the forest and I thought about that as I was on The Tail of the Possum.
I was following a car or two that was doing about 65 mph (I think the limit is probably 55 on most of that road) and I was thinking about this thread.
I was actually having a VERY PLEASANT ride through the trees, through the mesh jacket and in my open face helmet I was feeling the somewhat cool air coming out of the forest on either side of me and I was really enjoying riding at a pace about 100 yards or so behind the traffic, just matching them.
Now the joke about the Tail of the Possum is that it's 11 miles and 1 curve, but that's a slight exaggeration.
It's probably only 8-9 miles and there's probably about 8 curves :laugh: (ok maybe 7, as one of them is barely not a straight line). They're all gentle sweepers, except maybe one towards the east end (second to last) that gets narrow and then goes over a bumpy bridge just past the apex. All but that last one I can take comfortably at 70 or so on any of our bikes (Sporty, V7, Duc). And I mean comfortably, I feel like I'm not even pushing...well maybe I feel a little closer to pushing on the Sporty, but even still.
So the traffic pace of 65 was ALMOST perfect, unless they slowed for the curves (which they did).
But it was easy, a few hundred yards before the curves I downshifted and slowed putting more distance between them and me, then I'd accelerate, take the curve at my desired speed and shut it down as I was closing in on them again, slowly putting that 100 yards back between us before we approached the next curve, usually a mile or so away.
ANYWAY, about halfway through today I was thinking to myself IF I was on the Duc, or if I was on the Buell, or B11 etc. I'd likely have passed them, and then taken the next curve at 80, and then kept the speed up, and then come across someone who was going faster, so I'd accelerate some more...and then I'd take the next curve faster still.
This IS the road that I was playing with the Corvette while I was on the Duc last year... anyone who has heard that story should understand what I'm saying.
So I'm thinking about this and I realized, damn I'm having a perfectly good time and although the V7 HAS the power to pass those cars, there was literally NO NEED, so NO PROBLEM.
Ironically a little while later, on another nearby stretch a Durango decided to put their turn signal on and move half into the bicycle lane to let me by, even though they were also doing 65, I was at least 50 yards behind them (maybe more) AND we were in a straight passing zone without a car in sight. But I didn't want to be impolite, so I dropped it a gear and quickly passed them and put some distance on them before coming back into our lane. I couldn't help but think of that other thread where the doofus in a video supposedly was bagging on the passing power of the V7... yeah man, I'm sure you NEED to be doing more than 80 or 90 to pass where you live... whatever...
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ANYWAY, about halfway through today I was thinking to myself IF I was on the Duc, or if I was on the Buell, or B11 etc. I'd likely have passed them, and then taken the next curve at 80, and then kept the speed up, and then come across someone who was going faster, so I'd accelerate some more...and then I'd take the next curve faster still.
This IS the road that I was playing with the Corvette while I was on the Duc last year... anyone who has heard that story should understand what I'm saying.
So I'm thinking about this and I realized, damn I'm having a perfectly good time and although the V7 HAS the power to pass those cars, there was literally NO NEED, so NO PROBLEM.
This is exactly why I like riding the V7s. My Sport 1100 is like a Greek Siren and would lure me to do just what you've described.
The Sport 1100 is a wonderful, elemental, and capable sporty bike. Especially on that type of sweeping road. However, it is not comfortable or fun just cruising along. It wants to be ridden like Dr. John intended. And sometimes I wish the Siren didn't call.
That's where the V7 is perfect. 60-65 on a 55 posted 2-lane highway. Not demanding that you dominate the road, but allowing you to enjoy it as it comes. And if the odd pass is needed, it really isn't an issue.
Totally different vibe. And totally enjoyable.
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ANYWAY, about halfway through today I was thinking to myself IF I was on the Duc, or if I was on the Buell, or B11 etc. I'd likely have passed them, and then taken the next curve at 80, and then kept the speed up, and then come across someone who was going faster, so I'd accelerate some more...and then I'd take the next curve faster still.
THIS ^^^^^^^^
Since the temps were to 80 or less, I rode the B11 to work today for the first time in a while. I made a few passes on two lane roads on the way home that I wouldn't have bothered with on the V7 or one of the airheads -- not because I couldn't have on those bikes, but, I wouldn't have felt the need.
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I know it's anecdotal, but I've been stuck 2-3 times that I can think of off the top of my head in summertime (80-90F) stop-n-go traffic for anywhere from 1-2 HOURS and not HAD to shut down an air-cooled bike.
Then your boys must have more asbestos on 'em than mine do :bow:
(It was me that was getting cooked, not the bikes).
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Then your boys must have more asbestos on 'em than mine do :bow:
(It was me that was getting cooked, not the bikes).
I think it is just differences in particular bikes. Some bikes allow better airflow or position your boys further away from the heat than others.
I think my Buell S3T would have cooked me in that condition, same with my Breva 1100, but luckily the times it happened involved a Sportster, a Road King (EVO EFI, ran a lot cooler than current) and a Jackal.
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BP, if you had re-mapped you Stelvio, your heat problem would probably have been greatly fixed.
Looking back on it, I think you are absolutely right. I think wiseman Ralph Glorioso from the board here suggested this even. All of the tremendous popping elicited on decel tells me that "maybe" the bike was running lean and a really lean bike will definitely run hotter. I've been trying to address the same problem with my Thunderbird Sport project that has been running lean and very hot even after flushing radiator, replacing oil/filter, coolant, and repairing/testing fan.
I think had my only issue with the bike been its temp, then I would have more greatly investigated solutions, but my size and the bike's size was also a factor. Though I have a nice long inseam (32") that enjoys legroom and enjoys taller machines in general, I am seriously about 145lbs. soaking wet and only 5'9" total. The bike's height combined with its weight led to many in helmet sweats on hotter days just to get it turned around, plan for parking, and that kinda thing. I'm whining like a white man here :grin: but it just got old and after at least several scary almost drops, just decided that maybe ADV bikes aren't for me. Do not get me wrong, however, I thought the bike was pretty phenomenal once moving, handling, braking, sound, was fantatic.
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My Stelvio was re-mapped specifically to reduce the heat. This was probably effective in terms of cooling the cylinders and exhaust temps but did little to make the engine feel cooler when riding the bike. Why? Well, the heads are constantly being flushed with hot oil from the oil cooler. Whatever temperature the oil gets to is exactly what you will feel at the heads. Guzzi solved this with the latest model Norge by installing plastic ducts over the heads to divert that head heat away from the rider's knees. Leafman60 has adapted these to his Stelvio and seems to be very happy with the result. His mod involved making some brackets to mount the ducts so it would appear that Guzzi could do something similar for the rest of us. This would certainly be welcomed by those of us who's left knee tends to rest on that head...and get toasty as a result.
Peter Y.
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This conversation rambles around a bit, but a few have hit it square on the head....H-D and BMW went with liquid cooled HEADS and kept the cylinders finned and air cooled.
Radiators can be much smaller and concealed so they don't spoil the look. Keeping the head temps in line is what allows them to meet EPA emissions with tighter tolerances and more efficient combustion.
many of the big cruisers like the Roadliner have oil cooling with piston skirt jets and a couple of high capacity oil pumps to keep temps in line.
LOTS of bikes have the radiator not in front - as mentioned, the Super Tenere (I have one, it runs cool), and many Hondas suchas the aforementioned 996 Superhawk and VFR800.
Also the RC51 and GL1800... I had a GL1800 yrs ago for two up trips, and have ridden several RC51's.