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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lannis on August 04, 2015, 07:08:40 PM
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Three crashes this morning on a road near here. As usual, people are saying "It's a dangerous road, something ought to be done!"
It's a straight 4-lane highway will some hills, no driveways, 1 side road in one mile. The problem is that it's posted for 55 MPH, and traffic roars through at 70 MPH or more in the mornings (the heavy commute time, I rode it every day for years).
I know how people drive on that road. They're speeding, weaving through traffic, tailgating, eating, putting on makeup, texting, and talking. The DOT will get pressure to make that road "safer".
I suggest that if everyone drove the speed limit, had both hands on the wheel, eyes on the road, concentrating on what they were doing instead of doing something else, and had been trained to drive .... there would NEVER be a crash on that road, unless a deer jumped through a windshield or a tree fell on a car. Instead of 100 crashes per year on that section, there might be one or two.
Why can't people get that through their heads? As responsible motorcyclists, we tend to operate that way ANYhow, just for self preservation, since we don't have armor, airbags, and belts to protect us from our own idiocy .....
Lannis
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70? You guys are slackers.. :evil: :smiley:
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70? You guys are slackers.. :evil: :smiley:
If folks drove 70, but did none of the things Lannis mentioned (and that we all see everyday out there), the speed alone would cause few, if any, accidents.
Bill
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They just all need loud exhaust pipes. I hear :tongue: loud pipes save lives.
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If folks drove 70, but did none of the things Lannis mentioned (and that we all see everyday out there), the speed alone would cause few, if any, accidents.
Bill
I agree. But people would have to be trained to know to follow even farther behind the car in front, and it seems that people can't STAND to do that ......
Lannis
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Lannis,
On Sunday I was grateful I did not get on one of the bikes. Driving home from Houston following a gravel truck on SW Freeway at 75 mph, the truck suddenly spews a shit storm of bouncing gravel. I laid into the Mazda 3 brakes and still got hammered. Would have been deadly on a motorcycle. Then on suburb road, go around bend: tree cutting/grinding crew around corner, no warning, tree debris all over both lanes, one and a half lanes full of trucks and grinder and workers ignoring everything. Again I had to radically slow and swerve the little red car.
So I missed two potentially lethal situations within a half hour. Yep, grateful I opted for the car. :angry:
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Lannis,
On Sunday I was grateful I did not get on one of the bikes. Driving home from Houston following a gravel truck on SW Freeway at 75 mph, the truck suddenly spews a shit storm of bouncing gravel. I laid into the Mazda 3 brakes and still got hammered. Would have been deadly on a motorcycle. Then on suburb road, go around bend: tree cutting/grinding crew around corner, no warning, tree debris all over both lanes, one and a half lanes full of trucks and grinder and workers ignoring everything. Again I had to radically slow and swerve the little red car.
So I missed two potentially lethal situations within a half hour. Yep, grateful I opted for the car. :angry:
You're right, it doesn't have to be "other cars" that are the problem, it can be trucks and work crews.
Whenever someone describes a dangerous situation, I always do a little thought experiment to say "How would I have avoided that situation on a bike?"
1) Maybe it's just the part of the country I live in, or the roads I ride, but in my whole riding career I've never had occasion to follow a loaded gravel truck at 75 MPH. I'd back off ... way off ... to a point where if he dumped his load or threw a gator, I could get stopped or avoid it ....
2) One of the reasons that some people "ride faster than I do" is not necessarily (although it sometimes is) because their motorcycle is faster or they can handle their bike better or lean farther, but because they are willing to go around a blind turn at a speed at which, if they found the situation you describe, a tree fallen across the road, they would not be able to stop in time to avoid hitting it. I just don't go that fast around blind turns; I go at a speed such that if an overturned truck or a fallen tree suddenly appears, I can get stopped.
That being said, there are some situations where (like you) I'm glad I was in a car and not on a bike, usually involving going through paving-work areas where a 3-inch step has been left between lanes, or something falls off a pickup truck ahead of me that I didn't see coming .....
Lannis
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But people would have to be trained to know to follow even farther behind the car in front, and it seems that people can't STAND to do that
Most of the automobile driving that most people do is governed by emotion and programming, not logical thought or skill. And that probably applies to almost everything, not just driving. The fact that we often don't remember the actual drive that got us somewhere proves that we were on autopilot. Nothing is going to change that, either.
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Yesterday, I crossed over the Quaboag River at White's Landing, the site of a bridge rebuilt project. It has been going on so long they have installed lights to control the one open lane. Besides the lights, there were two policemen standing near a dump truck. A Volvo backhoe was finishing a trench for who knows what purpose, and a fairly attractive young gal in a safety outfit was holding a slow/stop sign while watching the dump truck idling. As safe as I felt, the dude coming up behind me tapped my bumper, had no clue that or why I was stopped (This is why I do not carry ) and no one bothered to check out the love tap. :shocked:
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I see the same thing here daily. A mix of folks trying to get to work, a great deal of commercial traffic, and light enforcement makes a dangerous mix. I try to concentrate on keeping a safe following distance and I listen to folk music to prevent losing my cool...
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Most of the automobile driving that most people do is governed by emotion and programming, not logical thought or skill. And that probably applies to almost everything, not just driving. The fact that we often don't remember the actual drive that got us somewhere proves that we were on autopilot. Nothing is going to change that, either.
Two counterexamples to "nothing is going to change that" and "applies to almost everything" pop into mind almost instantly. Piloting an airplane, and conning a ship.
Billions of people fly in airplanes every year, but the death toll annually is in the dozens or sometimes hundreds, not the hundreds of thousands. That's because pilots have to learn their job, and to pay attention to it while they're doing it. Ships are the same way. SOMETIMES a captain piles up a cruise ship on the rocks, but it's very rare - most of the time, they know what they are doing, and they pay attention to the job.
For some reason, we think that 32,000 dead people each year is an acceptable price for yakking on a phone, eating bagels, or putting on makeup while driving ....
Lannis
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The decline I've seen in US drivers over the last 10 years has made me give up riding, plus the Convert needed repairs that I wasn't interested in doing. And I'm sure it will get worse as we load up the new cars with even more distracting electronics. If I become unable to drive a car in 15 years I don't think I'll be too disappointed.
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Is some of the problem that drivers feel that there are so many safeguards such as ABS,airbags etc that the consequences of an accident will not affect them ? If a long sharp spike was installed on the steering wheel I bet there would be a rapid decline in these incidents.......
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Two counterexamples to "nothing is going to change that" and "applies to almost everything" pop into mind almost instantly.
Hmmm... I should have added that what I said applies to things that people are free to do on their own, as opposed to structured professional things that require significant training to overcome our natural tendencies. With less training, structure, and professionalism, airline pilots might allow female models to join them for a small party in the cockpit occasionally, and bus drivers might occupy themselves by exchanging text messages with friends, for example.
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Back in the 90s a person I knew was sent to the Porsche factory for business. A Porsche rep picked her up at the airport in a Carrera twin turbo. When she got in the car she had a drink in hand, looked around and couldn't find a cup holder. She asked the rep where one was and he replied that there are none. When you are driving, drive, when you are drinking, drink. We do not do both. He then pulled on to the autobahn and set the cruise at 200KPH.
GliderJohn
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With less training, structure, and professionalism, airline pilots might allow female models to join them for a small party in the cockpit occasionally, and bus drivers might occupy themselves by exchanging text messages with friends, for example.
The airlines could fix that on flights that I was on by providing me a seat behind the pilot, with a large hatpin in my hand .... And I think that South Asian bus drivers already have the texting and goofing-off thing covered.
Or is that "bus drivers in the South Asian regions"? I'm still not used to this ....
Lannis
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I've mentioned this on other threads, but the challenge here in Chicago is that you don't know if your fellow driver learned his skills in Lahore, Manila, Kiev, San Salvador, Lagos... or Chicago. Everyone is an equally terrible driver, but that terribleness manifests itself in different ways--making riding an even greater challenge.
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Maybe the education system needs to go back to the kind of driver education training I had where part of the classroom time was watching real life films of paramedics peeling screaming people out of mangled hunks of steel and glass. It's been over 40 years since I sat in that class and I still remember those films. I did have an impact on how I drive/ride. :copcar:
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Maybe the education system needs to go back to the kind of driver education training I had where part of the classroom time was watching real life films of paramedics peeling screaming people out of mangled hunks of steel and glass. It's been over 40 years since I sat in that class and I still remember those films. I did have an impact on how I drive/ride. :copcar:
Not a bad idea. But keep in mind that, due to the Internet and YouTube and the News, people see that gross, terrible sort of imagery now every week, where you never could 40 years ago unless in a Driver Ed class; whether it be Russian dash-cams or "Real Cop" shows or whatever (generally preceded with "This Video Contains Disturbing Images".)
But it never seems to disturb the comfortable .... It Can't Happen To Me ....
Lannis
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It's been over 40 years since I sat in that class and I still remember those films. I did have an impact on how I drive/ride.
Good for you, that it made a long lasting impression. I don't think everyone has that happen. I remember the junior high school scare movie about smoking, showing all kinds of gory results. A classmate who smoked, on the way out, said "That's it, I quit.". That lasted about five minutes, I guess, because it wasn't long after the movie that I saw him in the bathroom and behind the bushes outside, smoking as often as he could.
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There were plenty of bad drivers 50 years ago. Same percentage now but many more drivers means more bad drivers. I grew up in NJ near NYC. Drivers' were aggressive and were quick to blast the horn. Then I was out west in the Army and there was less horn blowing and less aggression but more bad drivers...They seemed to drive off the road for no good reason...
Of course the only good driver is the person telling the story about bad drivers' :wink: :grin:
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You guys are forgetting 1 particular driving hazard. The Octogenarian! Cookie and I are currently in England-the Midlands-and our hostess is a tiny 75-year old lady. Her driving scares the hell out of us. Twice, I have had to slip into the drivers seat, which is on the WRONG side, and park the car for her. We hopefully will all become old at some point, but I hope we know when to hang up the keys!
Bill Lovelady IS
Eskimo Spy
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Not a bad idea. But keep in mind that, due to the Internet and YouTube and the News, people see that gross, terrible sort of imagery now every week, where you never could 40 years ago unless in a Driver Ed class; whether it be Russian dash-cams or "Real Cop" shows or whatever (generally preceded with "This Video Contains Disturbing Images".)
Lannis
Unfortunately very true. Today's movie goers are subject to more violence and gore than those Driver Ed movies had.
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Of course the only good driver is the person telling the story about bad drivers' :wink: :grin:
In college, I took an elective course in driver education that was required for MD driving instructors. One of the things we were told that stuck with me is that in general, the better a person thinks he is at driving, the worse he actually is. This is because a person who thinks he's good at it is unaware of the countless hazards and pitfalls that exist, and the techniques he can use to improve his chances of avoiding them. A person who is truly good at driving is constantly watching for and avoiding problems, and adjusting his driving to reduce risk. He knows he could do more, if only he had the mental and physical energy.
Interestingly, riding a motorcycle forces you to drive at a higher level of awareness and safety, assuming you want to stay unhurt, and it probably carries over to automobile driving to some extent.
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Interestingly, riding a motorcycle forces you to drive at a higher level of awareness and safety, assuming you want to stay unhurt, and it probably carries over to automobile driving to some extent.
I'm sure it does. I've been riding motorcycles longer than I've been driving. At a conservative estimate, 900,000 miles about evenly split between bikes and cars over the last 45 years.
And although I fell once on an icy bridge on a bike, I have NEVER had any kind of crash, collision, going off the road, causing an crash, or anyone hitting me in a car. No "accidents" of any kind since 1970 when I started driving.
So although there are very many things I am not very good at in this world, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I am a SUPERB driver by any measure, and I'm sure that there is a very small percentage of drivers that can truthfully claim the kind of record that I have on the road.
In this case, the "worst drivers think they are the best" does not hold true, and I know from personal experience that someone who cares about how he drives and who makes sure he is careful and alert can get through a long life without even denting anything .....
Lannis
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You guys are forgetting 1 particular driving hazard. The Octogenarian! Cookie and I are currently in England-the Midlands-and our hostess is a tiny 75-year old lady. Her driving scares the hell out of us. Twice, I have had to slip into the drivers seat, which is on the WRONG side, and park the car for her. We hopefully will all become old at some point, but I hope we know when to hang up the keys!
Bill Lovelady IS
Eskimo Spy
You don't want to characterize people TOO quickly! We have Octogenarians on this list that can probably outride and outdrive both of us ... !
But we all know people who kept driving too long. It's generally related to mental breakdowns and formerly surpressed paranoia ("I'm still as good as I ever was! The kids are just trying to get me out of the way so they can have my stuff! I'm not getting older! I'll live forever, I don't need to make plans ...."). I had to deal with it with my Mom and several older relatives.
Lannis
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It's going to be another lost freedom in the future as we transition to driverless cars, mostly because of the lack of responsibility for their own actions that drivers exhibit on an increasing level. People seem all too willing to trade freedom for a perceived increase in safety.
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It's going to be another lost freedom in the future as we transition to driverless cars, mostly because of the lack of responsibility for their own actions that drivers exhibit on an increasing level. People seem all too willing to trade freedom for a perceived increase in safety.
I still say it's not going to happen on any significant scale in our lifetimes. Way too many variables. If I'm wrong, I'll know and I'll say so. But I'm not worried about being wrong on this ....
Lannis
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In this case, the "worst drivers think they are the best" does not hold true, and I know from personal experience that someone who cares about how he drives and who makes sure he is careful and alert can get through a long life without even denting anything .....
Looking back at your record and acknowledging that you must have done a good job to achieve it isn't what was meant. My teacher was referring to thinking you're doing a great job while you're driving. When you're driving, I bet you're constantly aware of things you need to do to stay safe, and you're probably aware that you can always improve what you're doing to stay even safer.
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I agree. But people would have to be trained to know to follow even farther behind the car in front, and it seems that people can't STAND to do that ......
Lannis
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Tailgating is endemic in America. Too many people watching NASCAR as their driver's training video. If the LEOs would enforce safe following distance we'd all be much better off - but guess there's no radar-gun-like monitor for that.
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:1:
Tailgating is endemic in America.
It all started with those fancy disc brakes. :wink:
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Lannis, you'll notice I didn't say when in the future, that's the key in predicting, not putting a date on your prediction :laugh:
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It all started with those fancy disc brakes. :wink:
That might be true!!
We were playing ball in the driveway one day when a brand new very unusual white car came down the road. We looked at it but didn't move out of the way because we knew it didn't belong at our house.
But it pulled in, and my Dad was driving it. He had traded our blue 1959 Renault Dauphine for a brand new 1963 Renault R8! (A shocking surprise to my Mom, who thought she was managing the money .... :thewife: ).
The first thing I noticed was a big decal in the back window which read:
"CAUTION - FOUR WHEEL DISK BRAKES"
That was a really good car, as was the R10 that followed it. But the era of disk brakes had officially arrived in Virginia that day ....
Lannis
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Well, this certainly has been an entertaining thread.
I'm all for the one car length for every ten miles per hour guideline, but that was created early in the previous century.
We put enough cars on the road in our major cities that in order to observe that rule we'd all have to leave the house yesterday in order to get to work today.
More money invested in well thought out mass transit and better designed cities would help a lot, but that cow has already left the barn.
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More money invested in well thought out mass transit and better designed cities would help a lot, but that cow has already left the barn.
That's a fact, but cheap gas and "I have to be FREE and INDEPENDENT of trains and buses" American thinking has killed that.
The north side of Charlotte, NC is a good example. A MASSIVE amount of development in the last 20 years ... mile after mile of business parks, universities, apartments, subdivisions; and NO way to get around except a car. No bike paths, no buses, no trains, nothing but completely choked 8 lane roads with no sidewalks even.
I'm sure that the city planning commission's philosophy is something like "Who's going to walk or bicycle anywhere? Only bag ladies, homeless bums, and criminals WALK anywhere. Any decent person drives a car .... "
And there's lots more places like them ....
Lannis
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Just heard the brother-ln-law totaled his Kawasaki Voyager this morning. Don't have all the facts yet but it has to do with a car backing out of a driveway. His wife and him are ok but banged up.I don't want to pre-judge but he always had a lot of distractions going on while riding as the bike had 6 speakers, Ipod ,gps screens , cigarette lighter and who knows what else.They never wore helmets or any safety vests and both of them would smoke while riding.We always disagreed on how much concentration was needed on the road.He didn't want anything to" harsh his mellow" whatever that means.I'm just sayin'.
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The solution to make that road safer is to rework it so that there are lots of sweeping curves, a few 180s and 1 or 2 260s. No shoulder so that the speeders just drift off to some unseen place. After the culling, a perfect road to ride.
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If a long sharp spike was installed on the steering wheel I bet there would be a rapid decline in these incidents.......
There would certainly be fewer repeat offenders!
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That might be true!!
We were playing ball in the driveway one day when a brand new very unusual white car came down the road. We looked at it but didn't move out of the way because we knew it didn't belong at our house.
But it pulled in, and my Dad was driving it. He had traded our blue 1959 Renault Dauphine for a brand new 1963 Renault R8! (A shocking surprise to my Mom, who thought she was managing the money .... :thewife: ).
The first thing I noticed was a big decal in the back window which read:
"CAUTION - FOUR WHEEL DISK BRAKES"
That was a really good car, as was the R10 that followed it. But the era of disk brakes had officially arrived in Virginia that day ....
Lannis
The myth goes that MANY years ago Austin Rover sold all the tooling and manufacturing rights for the Austin Montego to an Indian company
At that time, all the cars on the road in India were revamped Morris Oxfords the Hindustan Ambassador
Instant accident peak as the Montego had disc brakes and the many Oxfords drum brakes
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So many factors that vary so much from place to place. I still can't understand why all the distracting entertainment and support features came into autos prior to the self-driving that would support them!!
As to motorcycle awareness, I can speak to that. Here a few miles from the "Dragon" and in a motorcycling destination the locals are much much more aware of motorcycles than elsewhere in the area. This becomes very clear from driving out from our house, even simply into Knoxville. Back in Blount & Monroe County and people actually see bikes. The few incidents I've had with one exception involved visitors.
Certainly, driving skill is not high. We don't teach driving, and people are resistant. My ex, for example, took 20 years to get her to understand that riding the brakes into a turn was why she was insecure in turns. Once she started driving a heavier high-performance car that scared her driving wrong (BMW 540i) she finally learned simple cornering (throttle up through turn, pick apex, eyes on the exit) and really improved.
I'm in favor of graduated licenses, reckless driving (including tailgating) enforcement, etc., but it's not going to happen. Figure I need to stay sharp and defensive.
And people think they are good drivers. My OL rests her left arm on the window ledge, has odd and ineffective grip on the wheel, irregular and unthinking throttle and brake response, doesn't link up input to response in her mind, etc. Doesn't notice the vehicle jerks around, ignores her multi-apex cornering etc. Fails to notice the difference from driver to driver (notes my dad's distractibility from age, but doesn't notice how smooth, controlled and careful he is). Studiously ignores hints and suggestions about car driving. But rides a bike very nicely - doesn't link up car to bike technique! Thinking of sending her to a racing school so she can develop some seat-of-the-pants feel. Most folks don't believe that a car driver can tell when one tire is a few pounds low, or that cars are always drifting a bit, or that learning is a lifetime thing.
Imagine if we actually trained people to drive, enforced reasonable laws etc.! I feel just barely competent to handle all the input and the complexity of our road system in the US, and I am actually trained and experienced. No idea why there aren't many more wrecks.
Sorry for rambling, I am not awake and I do mull over safe driving. I think the most amazing demonstration of safe driving was my grandfather testing an MG Magnette he had gone through for my mother to use. I was probably 15 (so this would be in the late 1960s). I think this was the Mark IV with the upgraded suspension. He got it ticking over nicely, and we took it out. He proceeded to systematically test the transmission up and down (glass smooth, he was), and then the grip. Got out to adjust tire pressure. Then we did a ride on country roads that involved full throttle, full braking, throttle steering, speeds into the 80s on long straights, and so on. Punctuated by stops to adjust things. An amazing demonstration of how a vehicle could be run safely within its limits and the sight line limits, but at the edges of its performance. Never saw him do anything but carefully picking his way through the world after that, except for his tendency to use throttle to corner well, rather than braking first. Smoothest driver I've seen, with all kinds of techniques to suggest to others to back off, and a sixth sense about who would do stupid. Now if folks would learn that kind of control and understanding, learn to get the whole 360 in mind all the time, pay attention, and get their emotions out of their driving, we might be able to have a lot more fun!!!!! [He started on bikes in the 20s - built racing cars - rebuilt high-performance aircraft - I miss him]
Sorry for the ramble. Time to get to work.
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Right now you still have such a huge mix of skills it is amazing.
My mother learned to drive a Model A in the 30's. She still practices a lot of what she learned then. Like parking. You just pull up until the bumper taps the person in front of you. Simple. She just can not comprehend why that is not acceptable these days. She still has a hard time using mirrors (her dad's Model A did not have one).
My dad loved fast cars. He learned, sometimes the hard way, about how to drive and then passed it on to us when he taught us to drive. I think that's the big blank spot in drivers. Training. The do not get it in the schools, public or private. They do not get it from their parents. They just kind of get in and go, maybe knowing what the traffic rules/laws are. Most of those are now in their 40's and 50's and they still do not know how to drive. And guess who is teaching the next generation.
I'd love to see a REAL drivers test (and training schools), but, we'll never get them. They are actually getting worse rather than better.
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Growing up on a farm helped me to learn driving and clutch skills over a longer period of time starting with tractors & a go-cart, then a PU in a pasture, then dirt roads. I was allowed to take the PU out in a dirt field and learn about loss and regaining of traction. Was able to do similar with a car on a snow covered parking lot. Kind of like spin training in an airplane, if you can practice under controlled conditions than you are better prepared if ever happens on the road. I don't think most get those kind of opportunities anymore.
GliderJohn
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I've driven in most European countries and the Middle East. Nowhere else have I encountered less disciplined, educated and intelligent drivers than here in the U.S. Culturally, Americans don't take driving seriously. I'm talking about four wheelers btw.
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Charlie B- there was just a big ta do last week here in the Tampa Bay News about the increasing numbers of people unable to pass the written drivers exam. Seems only one third of the people who take the exam can actually pass so now they are considering re-writing the exam to make it "easier to comprehend the questions". Now how much easier can they make it? Already if you don't read, write or understand English they allow someone to interpret the questions for you. And I am sure since the examiner is not standing there the interpreter isn't helping with the answers. More dumbing down of our country.
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Just spent the last weekend in England. I will go on record as saying that the English are better drivers than Americans as a whole. A large part of that is civility, but also skill was superior. Buses everywhere. Traffic moved thru London and Birmingham quite well.
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Maybe the education system needs to go back to the kind of driver education training I had where part of the classroom time was watching real life films of paramedics peeling screaming people out of mangled hunks of steel and glass. It's been over 40 years since I sat in that class and I still remember those films. I did have an impact on how I drive/ride. :copcar:
I remember those as well. One in particular, Signal 30, was filmed on Route 30 here in Ohio. Going to school in Ashland, (very near Rt.30), emphasized that movie a lot. I do wonder sometimes if todays driver education is as comprehensive as it was all those years ago. Whether the standards have been lowered, varying quality of the private education, etc. Shoot, students don't even have to parallel park any more. Here, they move into a five cone setup and move 1/2 car width around the fifth cone, then back into the other four, then do it to the other side of the fifth cone. There have always been driving distractions, but there are certainly more than ever before.
Oh well............
John Henry
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Three crashes this morning on a road near here. As usual, people are saying "It's a dangerous road, something ought to be done!"
Lannis,
This post without identifying the road in question is almost useless. :evil: :>)
Tom
Oriental, NC
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Just spent the last weekend in England. I will go on record as saying that the English are better drivers than Americans as a whole. A large part of that is civility, but also skill was superior. Buses everywhere. Traffic moved thru London and Birmingham quite well.
Another factor is that, unlike in the US, driving drunk will get you in really big trouble in the UK.
And not just the UK. When I visited a friend in Japan, after dinner he insisted that his non-drinking wife drive me back to my hotel. He explained that if he were to be cited for driving with even a little alcohol in his system, he would not only lose his right to drive, he would also probably lose his job, which was as a tenured professor. Here, it's nearly impossible for a tenured professor to lose his/her job for any reason short of raping the dean (and even then,...).
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If a long sharp spike was installed on the steering wheel I bet there would be a rapid decline in these incidents.......
Another incentive would be to eliminate front bumpers.
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I remember those as well. One in particular, Signal 30, was filmed on Route 30 here in Ohio.
In the Montgomery County, MD public school system in the mid '70s, they showed us Signal 30 and Mechanized Death. That second one was was pretty creepy to a high school student from its name alone. They had enough of an impact on me that I can still remember some of the scenes.
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One would think dead people would make a difference, but I've seen volunteer firefighters become jerk drivers even though they work wrecks. Seems some dissonance there. Doesn't make sense.
My grandfather and grandmother on my mom's side were the last survivors of their motorcycle club by the time WWII rolled around. My mom saw death close up, although from bombing. My dad is smart (very very smart - worked on minor things like developing the Internet, satellite spying etc.) and has always been very very cautious. So I grew up with save driving. And was still a relatively unskilled, overconfident jerk until I a) got trained by a rally driver and a race driver while working on their cars, b) got into outdoor skill sports where the unskilled went splat, and c) drove a wrecker. And I'm reasonably smart, at least smart enough to enjoy learning and improving things.
I have to say that I am the safest driver I've ever been at 61, that I have the most knowledge of driving I've ever had, and that I was very safe by the time I was 25. But most people I watch seem to get sloppy as the years go by. They simply don't work at it. On the other hand, most people don't track tire pressure, maintain their machines, understand what they're doing or how things work.
US won't go where it needs to. Loss of license for 6 months for first DUI, loss of car and license gone for 5 years next DUI, permanent loss of license and 20,000 fine third DUI. Texting while driving 1000 fine, then 5000 fine and 1 month license loss. Things like that.
Has to be countered with education. I like tagging beginners with an "L" or something like that. Maybe license plates should reflect the class of driver. Should go for cars, too. I have driven cars I would never put a teenager in. Education needs to cover perception, tiredness, how a car actually drives, and so on.
Also need periodic testing. My former MILaw (she's dead and the ex-wife departed) apparently started fading much before anyone knew. Her DL expired in 1993!!! Her driving tipped us off to something wrong about 2005. Turned out she could get the places she knew even with severe deficits in functioning. Turn her off the familiar path and she would be lost. Nobody would ride with her, so her unusual driving habits weren't noticed, and she never got caught.
Lack of respect for law / rules also figures in. I have had conversations with a number of folks who indicated they would have stopped at the stop sign if they'd seen me. Every time the culprit looks shocked when I explain that one is required to stop first, then look, then go. It's really insane.
Sixth sense, 360 tracking, look like a cop, day-glo vest mostly, bike control.
I think I will send my OL through a driving course. She's OK, but is clearly shocked at the ground-covering capabilities of someone trained in a hurry. No way she has the chops to really drive. And she needs to develop quiet pride in her ability, something that marks a really good worker in anything.
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Three crashes this morning on a road near here. As usual, people are saying "It's a dangerous road, something ought to be done!"
Lannis,
This post without identifying the road in question is almost useless. :evil: :>)
Tom
Oriental, NC
Well, quite.
It's the stretch of US 460 east of Lynchburg, VA, between the eastern US 29 interchange and the US 501 interchange .....
Lannis
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US won't go where it needs to. Loss of license for 6 months for first DUI, loss of car and license gone for 5 years next DUI, permanent loss of license and 20,000 fine third DUI. Texting while driving 1000 fine, then 5000 fine and 1 month license loss. Things like that.
Good idea, already implemented in many states, but doesn't help.
"Loss of license" and fines doesn't keep people out of cars, and doesn't keep them from driving. And if you put them in jail so they CAN'T drive, the world press media is appalled that so many in the USA are in prison .....
Lannis
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Charlie B- there was just a big ta do last week here in the Tampa Bay News about the increasing numbers of people unable to pass the written drivers exam. Seems only one third of the people who take the exam can actually pass so now they are considering re-writing the exam to make it "easier to comprehend the questions". Now how much easier can they make it? Already if you don't read, write or understand English they allow someone to interpret the questions for you. And I am sure since the examiner is not standing there the interpreter isn't helping with the answers. More dumbing down of our country.
Well, it doesn't even stop there. When getting my MC license here in NM I watched a lady take the Commercial exam to be a school bus driver. She could not read english so she had someone else there with her to 'interpret'. The other person said nothing, just pointed out which answers to mark.
Penalties? DUI?? Not here in NM. When a drunk kills someone there are usually 5 to 10 DUI CONVICTIONS on their record. Some are driving without a license and in someone elses car (cause theirs were both impounded). They routinely get 5 convictions before a license is pulled. Combine that with the state giving a DL to any illegal that wants one and you have a free for all. It is kinda surprising more people aren't killed over here.
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I suspect we need to change our cultural view of driving. I consider piloting a vehicle to have equal responsibility to handling a gun. Most appear not to. Reinforcing that it's a privilege, not a right, and bring responsibilities would be useful.
Not going to hold my breath. Right about up to carrying again, although I hate doing so. No interest in hurting anyone, but sometimes a bit of noise helps one disengage. I simply can't count on my physical training and skills as much as I could decades ago.
Roaming reckless driving officers and roaming paramedics on bikes would be good additions to the mix.
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Lannis, I'm going to reprint your original post on my facebook page!
Maybe the education system needs to go back to the kind of driver education training I had where part of the classroom time was watching real life films of paramedics peeling screaming people out of mangled hunks of steel and glass. It's been over 40 years since I sat in that class and I still remember those films. I did have an impact on how I drive/ride. :copcar:
I remember those films being shown to us at an assembly in high school. We saw four of them. "Mechanised Death" and "Signal 30" were two of them. I don't recall the names of the other two. While probably very dated now they were truly gory unlike what usually comes with the 'disturbing images' warning.
In fact four of them was one too many. By then the shock was wearing off. We had all seen what was inside a human body plenty of times by then and I found it was only the seriously injured but alive and conscious that still disturbed me. (We have the Ohio State Police to thank for them)
None the less, I heard teenage boys leaving the hall swearing that they were Never going to get a licence.
It comes down to I believe compulsory skills based driver training on which your licence depends.
One problem with that is that such programs are more often than not run by or orchestrated by the police. Police as a general rule (I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions) tend to be 'Rule based' in their approach to road safety. That is to say, they equate safety with obedience to regulations and tend to consider that to be the skill.
On a motorcycle we may or may not take much notice of the speed limit for example but we sure as hell learn to notice, and act on, potential hazards.
I believe that riding a motorcycle is perhaps the best defensive driving course there is. In fact, back in the day when we had a separate traffic police, those guys were required to spend two years on a motorcycle before they were allowed in a car. Some that I have met then refused to give up the bike.
Some time back there was talk of raising the age at which one could get a licence in this country. One idea I heard mooted was to raise the age to 18 for a car but let it remain at 15 for a motorcycle. I think that idea has merit.
PS
Out of curiosity I dialed up 'Signal 30' on utube. What I watched is not what I remember. I suspect it has been much sanitised and shortened. Very grainy too.
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You don't want to characterize people TOO quickly! We have Octogenarians on this list that can probably outride and outdrive both of us ... !
Lannis
I thought you were already an Octogenarian....... ....I learn something new everyday! :cheesy:
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Five Principles of Safe Driving-Smith driving system
Make the roads a safe place by employing the same methods we use with our drivers. The Smith System states that following these five rules can dramatically reduce the risk of major accidents on highways and roads.
1. Aim High
The first rule for this method is Aim high in steering. Staying alert of the dangers and traffic ahead not only avoids rear-end collisions, but it also alerts other drivers behind your vehicle to slow down. The driver should steer and focus their attention high, so as to view the road as whole and not just a few feet ahead.
2. The Big Picture
Be aware of your surroundings at all times may seem obvious to say, but distracted drivers are just as dangerous as intoxicated ones. Erratic and angry drivers take up a large portion of the traffic we see daily, so avoid major accidents by noticing how other drivers behave on the road. Having the whole picture means that you are doing your part to keep your vehicle as safe as possible while moving 1000ft a second. There are a variety of hazards between your own vehicle and other drivers, and a keen awareness of these dangers will reduce these risks.
3. Keep Your Eyes Moving
The third standard of the Smith System asks drivers to remain alert. Energy drinks can only do so much before they cause the body to crash, and any repetitive motion sends us into a trance. Consistent eye movement prevents your body from entering the trance state, keeping you alert to every driving condition ahead of you.
4. Leave Yourself an Out
The fourth principle of the Smith System states to leave yourself a way out. This means ensure that other drivers do not box you in while selecting their lanes. Do not follow other vehicles too closely, and always anticipate what choices other drivers make.
5. Make Sure They See You
The worst thing a driver can do is assume. Assume other drivers can see them, assume other drivers are not dangerous, or even assume that they will just get to their destination safely. The final rule for the Smith System is Make Sure You Are Seen.This rule prevents accidents by removing assumptions made behind the wheel. As a driver, make sure that other drivers can see you and anticipate your move. If you feel you are coming into another drivers blind spot, use the horn to get their attention
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The decline I've seen in US drivers over the last 10 years has made me give up riding, plus the Convert needed repairs that I wasn't interested in doing. And I'm sure it will get worse as we load up the new cars with even more distracting electronics. If I become unable to drive a car in 15 years I don't think I'll be too disappointed.
40%+ of the accidents in Los Angeles are Hit n Runs.
This removes the Darwin element of driving in LA.
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Having the whole picture means that you are doing your part to keep your vehicle as safe as possible while moving 1000ft a second.
Good post with great principles of safe driving. (but Mach .9? :laugh:)
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Good post with great principles of safe driving. (but Mach .9? :laugh:)
The local stunter boyz on their extended-swingarm Busas and Gixxers are all doing at least 550 miles per hour.
Just ask them ....
Lannis