Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bmacneil2008 on August 09, 2015, 06:06:41 PM
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Called my dealer, the closest is 3 hours north but a great shop, Matthews Fun Machines in Matthews, NC, beyond helpful. Anyway, at 3k miles on a 2009 just this week, (bought new in 2014), decided to change all fluids even though were done at the 600 mile mark per the manual by the dealer. Was curious about the process. Used 10/60w ENI, http://www.eniracing.com/en for engine and dealer said MG USA has approved Fuchs Silkolene 80/90w for both the CARC and transmission, http://www.fuchslubricants.com/boa-80w-90. Never heard of either oil manufacturer until owning the MG. Is a very interesting bike and could not be happier. Pic is from a recent 4 day camp trip up in the Appalachia's.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/71375941@N02/sets/72157646618880578
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/288/19810026921_18f5e353ea_b.jpg)
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Staccatocycles.com has what you need more likely than not, and at a good price with fast shipping. They have a lot of ENI stuff.
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ENI has been around a long time. Formerly called Ajip. Good stuff! Motorex, or Motule, or something like that also sells a 10/60. Regardless of what you choose, make sure you use 10/60. DO NOT LET ANYBODY TELL YOU 20/50 IS FINE. IT IS NOT!
John Henry
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From OP's post I gather that he has already changed the fluids. Good on him. We have spent lots of electrons debating the value of 10W60 vs damn near anything. I'm still in the 10W60 camp. With that said, one can find the oil lots of places, some on the Internet so it makes sense to me to lay in a stock for future changes. With that said, I am also a believer in oil analysis and that has led me to believe that you can go 4-5K miles between changes if using full synthetic 10W60. On a long trip I have even gone 6K miles without blowing the engine up and my most recent analysis was pretty darn good. Of course we all have differing opinions on this topic so feel free to disagree.
Peter Y.
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The analysis speaks the truth, best way to tell.
So much depends on use, with mileage recommendations generally very conservative. Many bikes see no short-trip use at all, only trips of 30 minutes plus. Suspect oil goes a long long time that way.
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Just for the record what happens if 20-50 full synthetic motor oil is used? Has anyone here experienced oil breakdown, if so what happened?
I understand the difference between 10-60 and 20-50 engine oil weights, but the question is will it lead the engine into an early grave?
No emotion, just facts. I am not taking side in this fights, just asking questions.
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That is a good question. For the top number, I would think that nothing different would occur unless the engine gets over a certain temperature, and then lubrication would suffer. Suspect that is a very high temperature. With modern synthetics, I can't see the at-temperature viscosity changing much.
On the other end, a 20W might not wick up quickly enough below some magic temperature resulting in oil starvation.
Anyone really know? I'm curious.
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In all honesty I don't think the different VI will effect much. What is really important is that it be a fully man made ester based oil because, although generally the 8V is grossly over cooled there are points and times in the motor where the oil will experience very, very high temperatures, albeit for only very short periods of time. It's this flash heating in places like the cooling galleries and the under-crown sprays that will quickly degrade a conventional mineral oil.
Pete
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That is a good question. For the top number, I would think that nothing different would occur unless the engine gets over a certain temperature, and then lubrication would suffer. Suspect that is a very high temperature. With modern synthetics, I can't see the at-temperature viscosity changing much.
On the other end, a 20W might not wick up quickly enough below some magic temperature resulting in oil starvation.
Anyone really know? I'm curious.
I think the benefits of the full synthetics really kick in with air-cooled motors like our Guzzis. I won't use anything but Motorex or Motul in my 1200 Sport. So far so good!
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What not just use what is supposed to be used and changed when its supposed to be changed?
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Just for the record what happens if 20-50 full synthetic motor oil is used? Has anyone here experienced oil breakdown, if so what happened?
I understand the difference between 10-60 and 20-50 engine oil weights, but the question is will it lead the engine into an early grave?
No emotion, just facts. I am not taking side in this fights, just asking questions.
I bought a new Norge in 2007. Guzzi had just begin spec using 10/60. Pretty much everyone said it was ok to use the 20/50, including the dealer I bought the bike from. Early on, I was using Amzoil 20/50 in the Norge. My buddy and I went to a rally and got stuck going through Indy in a traffic jam resulting from an accident. We couldn't pull over as the emergency lanes were being used by EMS. During that time, my bike got hot enough that the dreaded oil can appeared on the dash along with a red warning triangle. Couldn't turn off the bike, and creeping ahead at a very slow pace. When we finally got through it, I gently applied the throttle and as soon as we started moving everything went back to normal. I never had trouble as a result of that nor did the bike ever start making unwanted noises when that happened. I am convinced the Amzoil is what prevented any damage to the engine, but it got so thin there was no pressure evidently. I put many miles on that bike after that and did not have any issues, but it scared the crap out of me. Shortly after that, Guzzi changed the spec to 10/60 on the other BB bikes such as the B1100.
After that, I got my hands on 10/60 and never looked back. I would not want to risk an 8 valve motor with 20/50 just because someone else says it will be ok.
edit: I have been stuck in similar situations since that time on one or two occasions and have never had that issue using the 10/60. Now some of the new bikes have a cooling fan mounted on the cooler.
John Henry
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Can't believe I'm posting on an oil thread.
I use 10w60 in my Stelvio. It is readily available at several places, including any local NAPA store.
10w60 is becoming the standard for many euro-spec engines. It covers almost the full viscosity scale for ambient temperature situations. Yes, the 60w upper viscosity would tend to provide insurance at the upper end of temperature ranges for motors tuned lean and running hot.
However, I believe 20w50, especially synthetic, would be fine in most 8V motors in most situations.
The previous Guzzi 8V motor that found its way into the Centauro series as well as the Daytona series for several years, specified 20w50. I owned a Daytona RS and read all the Chicken Little scares about various engine issues but I don't remember any problems because of oil viscosity failures.
The BMW engines for many years have been more mechanically complicated and developed much, much more horsepower than our beloved Guzzi VTwin and the BMW spec has been- 20w50. Along with many other BMW riders, I've used 20w50 oil for many years in my 1150 and 1200 boxer engines including the one producing 130+ HP in my 1200S. Nowadays, my understanding is that, like Guzzi, BMW specs 10w60.
Harley Davidson engines come set up pretty lean from the factory. These huge twins, some displacing up to 1800cc's, are provided with H-D factory oil that is 20w50. These big motors have a lower rpm range than European engines but, still, the heat developed by them is a major factor. (A simple re-flash with H-D's own SE performance fuel map eliminates a lot of this issue.) I use Mobil 1 Synthetic 20w50 Motorcycle Oil in my Harley's. Never ever had an issue.
10w60 is relatively new. Had it been around in the days of the Daytona and the previous generations of BMW engines, maybe it would have been specified then. The engines of today, especially the air-cooled engines with their lean tuning, tend to generate more heat. I can see the possible benefit of the 60w upper limit viscosity.
Still, if a rider happens to run a batch of synthetic 20w50 through his engine, I don't think he is going to immediately trash the internals.
I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth argument about this. This is just my opinion based on my experience. When asked by others what type of oil to use in their motorcycles, I take the safe route and always advise them simply to use what the manufacturer recommends.
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Can we safely end this thread on the note of: Use the best quality of motor oil you can change it at least per the manual.
Ride it like you stole it, enjoy.
Good Luck
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Before this tread dies, I would like to ask about why the 10w of 10w/60 is needed here in south Louisiana which is almost a tropical climate, the 60w I fully understand.
Thanks Bob
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Bonafide Bob, I think a broad brush was used to write this spec. The 10w is the weight when cold and up in the northwoods it should get to the upper sections of the engine quicker and with less strain on the oil pump drive.
Living in Arkansas with temps close to your's I don't think the engine will know the difference. But I will say it is important to allow the engine to warm up before twisting the needle off of the rev counter.
Good Luck
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I also find it hard to believe I'm responding to an oil thread. Just got to thinking about my 2003 V11 LeMans. Perhaps 10W-60 would be a suggestion for these bikes?
Let the flaming begin!
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oilchangekits.com has 10w-60 for bikes at a good price
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I also find it hard to believe I'm responding to an oil thread. Just got to thinking about my 2003 V11 LeMans. Perhaps 10W-60 would be a suggestion for these bikes?
Let the flaming begin!
LOL! Well, it couldn't hurt.
I've been running Mobil-1 V-Twin 20w50 and grey cap 15w-50 for years in my spine frame bikes.
I like keeping one oil on hand, so if I run 10w60 in the new V7 Special, I may also use it in my Sport 1100.
We'll see.
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I use ENI iride 10W-60 in my Griso and Stelvio. I buy the case from Motocarr on ebay, shipped to my door, for about $12 per liter. It used to be $10 per liter...you have to buy a whole case for that price.
I have a hard time finding any 10W-60 full syn that beats that price, local or shipped.
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In all honesty I don't think the different VI will effect much. What is really important is that it be a fully man made ester based oil because, although generally the 8V is grossly over cooled there are points and times in the motor where the oil will experience very, very high temperatures, albeit for only very short periods of time. It's this flash heating in places like the cooling galleries and the under-crown sprays that will quickly degrade a conventional mineral oil.
Pete
"under-crown sprays" The 8V has piston cooling jets? Never knew that, and I'm very much impressed with Luigi if this is the case. :1: :1: :1:
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ENI has been around a long time. Formerly called Ajip. Good stuff! Motorex, or Motule, or something like that also sells a 10/60. Regardless of what you choose, make sure you use 10/60. DO NOT LET ANYBODY TELL YOU 20/50 IS FINE. IT IS NOT!
John Henry
Just to clarify, ENI is an Italian oil company (majority owned by the Italian government) and Agip is one of their brands. So, Agip 10W60 will come from the same plant as ENI 10W60 (syn vs. dyno and pricing may be different depending on their marketing strategy). Motul is a well know oil brand (not manufacturer) outside the US and becoming more available in the US.
I'll add my opinion / data point. I run Mobil 1 20W50 for V-Twins (full syn, no blending BS). I am using Blackstone Labs for oil analysis but only have two changes analyzed so far so have not posted any results. After my next change (every 5k miles), I'll post the analysis.
Tom
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Just to clarify, ENI is an Italian oil company (majority owned by the Italian government) and Agip is one of their brands. So, Agip 10W60 will come from the same plant as ENI 10W60 (syn vs. dyno and pricing may be different depending on their marketing strategy). Motul is a well know oil brand (not manufacturer) outside the US and becoming more available in the US.
I'll add my opinion / data point. I run Mobil 1 20W50 for V-Twins (full syn, no blending BS). I am using Blackstone Labs for oil analysis but only have two changes analyzed so far so have not posted any results. After my next change (every 5k miles), I'll post the analysis.
Tom
I researched this out a year or two ago and, at that time, Mobil 1 Synthetic Motorcycle Oil (VTwin) had pretty much the highest ZDDP (zinc phos) anti-wear additive out there. I posted a chart with these numbers.
That's all I'm saying. No further posts from me on this oil thread.
Over and out.
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"under-crown sprays" The 8V has piston cooling jets? Never knew that, and I'm very much impressed with Luigi if this is the case. :1: :1: :1:
Why wouldn't it be?
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5286/5206151122_71818ff2e7_z.jpg)
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Why wouldn't it be?
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5286/5206151122_71818ff2e7_z.jpg)
Always considered piston cooling oil jets as an indication of a well engineered engine. I was not aware that the 8V had them.
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It's more common on diesels simply because the burn, albeit cooler, continues over a much longer period of the cycle. With the 8V and many other modern petrol engines that have adopted the practice it is more a coping mechanism to deal with the piston's inability to dump heat 'Conventionally'.
The only way a piston can dump heat apart from radiation is through conduction, principally through the thrust face. In the interest of reducing frictional losses modern pistons have very short skirts but with this comes a great reduction in surface area through which heat can be dumped.
Forged pistons that hold their shape better help, but it's still essentially a surface area game. By using under crown sprays considerably more heat can be removed from the underside of the crown, the hottest part of the piston, reducing the reliance on thermal conduction through the shorter, partial, skirts of the modern 'Slipper' pistons. There is of course a slight trade off in the energy required to deliver the oil but since most oil pumps are considerably over capacity it's a bit of a moot point. If it wasn't firing the jets it would simply be getting thrown out of the OPRV.
Pete
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What not just use what is supposed to be used and changed when its supposed to be changed?
Because then there would be nothing to talk about. There would be no more "Local rider and Mom in your town finds this one weird secret way to make your engine last longer". No more "Insane oil tipz - Must See!".
Use a good quality 10W60 oil and change it every 10K km like the book says. No one has ever found a way to make an engine last longer or run better doing anything else.
But for some reason people say "My opinion is that I should use ..." or "I only use ...." or "I can get Rectum 20W50 at my local Dollar General so I'm sure that 20W50 is OK ...". The busy man in brown shorts will bring a year's supply of any oil you want right to your door in two days, so "availability" is never an issue.
Just something to talk smack about ... Nothing wrong with that, I suppose.
Lannis
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FWIW, I tried using 20W50 in my Stelvio for the first few oil changes. Analysis showed that the viscosity fell below normal after 4,000 miles or so. Not so with the 10W60. This was at both 210F and 100C. Flashpoint was still good. Based on that I'd say that the expensive spread is a better way to treat your $15K ride.
Peter Y.
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Always considered piston cooling oil jets as an indication of a well engineered engine. I was not aware that the 8V had them
The 2003 V11 LeMans has piston oil jets as well.
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It's more common on diesels simply because the burn, albeit cooler, continues over a much longer period of the cycle. With the 8V and many other modern petrol engines that have adopted the practice it is more a coping mechanism to deal with the piston's inability to dump heat 'Conventionally'.
The only way a piston can dump heat apart from radiation is through conduction, principally through the thrust face. In the interest of reducing frictional losses modern pistons have very short skirts but with this comes a great reduction in surface area through which heat can be dumped.
Forged pistons that hold their shape better help, but it's still essentially a surface area game. By using under crown sprays considerably more heat can be removed from the underside of the crown, the hottest part of the piston, reducing the reliance on thermal conduction through the shorter, partial, skirts of the modern 'Slipper' pistons. There is of course a slight trade off in the energy required to deliver the oil but since most oil pumps are considerably over capacity it's a bit of a moot point. If it wasn't firing the jets it would simply be getting thrown out of the OPRV.
Pete
I knew that :sad:
So is our Aussie Penrite 10/60 the 'good oil' Pete
Larry - the barking mad one ;)
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Any oil that meets the specs. I use Penrite Ten Tenths premium ten 10/60. It does its job. So do many others.
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The comment about oil cooling jets in diesel engines reminded me of a problem I had with a replacement diesel eng. in my Chevy pickup. NGC here. The new eng. was the later mil. surplus model and had oil cooling jets. The company I bought it from had put on a new stock oil pump for the earlier style engines with no piston oil cooling jets. My oil pressure was_way_down until I put the later pump on. Apparently, on a GM 6.5 diesel V8, the piston oil cooling jets really flow. The pump gears were at least half again bigger than the earlier pump. Good to know, at least to me, that my Norge engine is so designed.
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Any oil that meets the specs. I use Penrite Ten Tenths premium ten 10/60. It does its job. So do many others.
Thanks Pete
Larry
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so if ya'll had a Jackal running like a top, with no knowledge of the contents of the oil pan, with 25k on the clock, and 3 liters of 20W50 and 3 liters of 10W60 full syn on your bench, what would put in the motor.
:boxing:
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so if ya'll had a Jackal running like a top, with no knowledge of the contents of the oil pan, with 25k on the clock, and 3 liters of 20W50 and 3 liters of 10W60 full syn on your bench, what would put in the motor.
:boxing:
I'd have a look at the owner's manual first.
Lannis
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Because then there would be nothing to talk about. There would be no more "Local rider and Mom in your town finds this one weird secret way to make your engine last longer". No more "Insane oil tipz - Must See!".
Use a good quality 10W60 oil and change it every 10K km like the book says. No one has ever found a way to make an engine last longer or run better doing anything else.
But for some reason people say "My opinion is that I should use ..." or "I only use ...." or "I can get Rectum 20W50 at my local Dollar General so I'm sure that 20W50 is OK ...". The busy man in brown shorts will bring a year's supply of any oil you want right to your door in two days, so "availability" is never an issue.
Just something to talk smack about ... Nothing wrong with that, I suppose.
Lannis
If anyone wants Rectum 20W50, I'll ship it to them by the gallon or quart for free, no skimping on the volume either.
Comes with a nifty pour spout, a handi-rag and litmus paper to test the viscosity to prove you aren't being cheated. Please specify if you want the clear or milky white jugs. I can put them on the weekly re-order plan too, no extra charge. And, for a limited time, no need to order two, its an automatic order 1 get 2.
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I'd have a look at the owner's manual first.
Lannis
noted. manual not present
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noted. manual not present
In this modern world, everything is ALWAYS present.
I typed in "Moto Guzzi Jackal Users Manual Oil" and was immediately directed to the "This Old Tractor" site
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/workshop_manual_california_update_en_de_ne.pdf
which has a PDF copy of the Jackal users manual. On page "4" it tells you to use AGIP 4T SAE 5W40 in the engine.
25 seconds, info received, and it's NOT 20W50 or 10W60 that is recommended, so a good job you asked.
Lannis
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Of course Lannis, you know that recommendation in the owners manual has been superseded by a subsequent informational release.
That release has been posted to this web site many times. From my memory the Jackal is spec'd 20w50.
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Of course Lannis, you know that recommendation in the owners manual has been superseded by a subsequent informational release.
That release has been posted to this web site many times. From my memory the Jackal is spec'd 20w50.
Well, see, you not only get the original information BUT you get the informational release updates, all right here on the site at your fingertips and all within a few minutes .... paper manuals and dealer information not necessary.
But are you really sure about that "informational release" that has been posted "many times"? Can you find one for us?
Lannis
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In this modern world, everything is ALWAYS present.
I typed in "Moto Guzzi Jackal Users Manual Oil" and was immediately directed to the "This Old Tractor" site
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/workshop_manual_california_update_en_de_ne.pdf
which has a PDF copy of the Jackal users manual. On page "4" it tells you to use AGIP 4T SAE 5W40 in the engine.
25 seconds, info received, and it's NOT 20W50 or 10W60 that is recommended, so a good job you asked.
Lannis
good points (re: in this modern world)
and thanks for the effort and the info.
I intended it as something of a rhetorical question...given the contents of this thread...kinda saying...ok then, given all this information, IF you found yourself in this situation, what would you do?
to your first point, it reminds of a line I saw somewhere:
I possess a device, in my pocket, that is capable of accessing the entirety of information known to man. I use it to look at pictures of cats and get in arguments with strangers.
:bike-037:
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I possess a device, in my pocket, that is capable of accessing the entirety of information known to man. I use it to look at pictures of cats and get in arguments with strangers.
:bike-037:
Yup, that's what most people do with them.
But your question could also be:
"I have 5 quarts of kerosene and I have 5 quarts of chain-saw bar oil. Which one should I put in my motorcycle?"
Sounds sort of like "Just answer yes or no - Have you stopped beating your wife?" Neither of the allowed answers is any good, so maybe the answerer can suggest another ... ?
Lannis
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I got motul 8100 x power 10w60.
Guessing that should be fine
Previous owners running liquid moly
Anyone object?
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Man oh man, nobody ever reads my posts. Here it is straight from the factory. manual specs have been superseeded. Read the chart.
(https://i.ibb.co/9HLsJtGY/MG-oil.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9HLsJtGY)
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hahahahaha - oil threads never die. This one is ten years old.
:boozing:
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so if ya'll had a Jackal running like a top, with no knowledge of the contents of the oil pan, with 25k on the clock, and 3 liters of 20W50 and 3 liters of 10W60 full syn on your bench, what would put in the motor.
:boxing:
I would use the 11W60 that's what's specified for the V7