Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: krglorioso on August 24, 2015, 12:02:24 AM
-
No ribald jokes, please. I have owned the 2004 Stone Touring since 2009, having bought it from the OO with 6K miles. It was a vibrator then, as it is now. I tried 15oz billet stainless bar-ends with minimal improvement. Tightened all engine mount bolts and nuts, tried gel gloves, checked throttle body balance with a Carb Mate and found them near perfect.
I believe I may say with confidence that the engine is at fault. I isolated the engine as the cause by starting down a long grade in 5th gear at 70mph and then shifting into the false neutral between 5th and 4th gears, letting the engine revs fall to idle. Smooth as glass.
Picked up the revs, still in "neutral", and the vibration returns. It is at its worst around 2500-3000rpm, which is where I ride in town and on secondary roads in lower gears. This being a "hydro", it accepts the low revs very easily at light throttle openings on flat roads. I know the non-hydros prefer more revs. My usual cruising rpm is probably around 4000 and it's pretty smooth there. Still, the vibration level at lower rpm is annoying.
I have the 2003 twin to this Stone and it is considerably smoother and on riding former NorCal MGNOC Area Rep Don Van Zandt's 2004 hydro EV, it was smoother still.
I gratefully will accept all suggestions (but not "Rev the pee out of it, Ralph").
Thanks, in advance,
Ralph
-
If the throttle body balance is correct it may be related to some other aspect of the tune. Is the TPS set correctly?
Otherwise, if the tune is 100% spot on then it may be a weight balance issue but I find the hard to believe.
Pete
-
Yes, riding any 949cc or 1064cc Guzzi below 3,500 rpms is going to guarantee more vibes than you may like. They're not Harleys. If you want little or no vibes get a Jap. bike. If you want your Guzzi to be acceptible run it @ 4k rpm or more. :wink: If parts are not falling/breaking off, don't complain.
-
The mufflers are often a source of vibration. They hang off of aluminum castings that are none to rigid. You can fabricate some stiffeners that mount behind the castings in place of the spacers that are there.
-
Check the headers, If they touch the frame or the front bolt that holds the engine in the frame, you'll feel the vibration.
-
I have the 2003 twin to this Stone and it is considerably smoother and on riding former NorCal MGNOC Area Rep Don Van Zandt's 2004 hydro EV, it was smoother still.
I gratefully will accept all suggestions (but not "Rev the pee out of it, Ralph").
My 2004 EV, as you note, is very smooth. From idle up. No need to rev the crap out of it. It is spent a lot of days and miles closer to 3000 RPM, and it runs great like that.
So...... from your description, it truly is the engine.
Does it have the single plate clutch, or was the clutch switched? Maybe the flywheel is out of balance. No idea why or how.
Is the vibration there, in gear, at speed, clutch pulled, and idle?
Try to roughly measure the lift on the valves. Maybe a cam lobe has gone out and you haven't caught it yet.
And do a leakdown test to see if one cylinder is way down on compression.
Chuck had a shaker. Not sure he ever found the source of the problem.
-
Nope. I balanced the engine/clutch/flywheel. Still has a vibration at 2200. The only thing left to check is the alternator. (?)
-
Nope. I balanced the engine/clutch/flywheel. Still has a vibration at 2200. The only thing left to check is the alternator. (?)
Into minutia we go...
There is a fair amount of mass on both the front and rear of the 1100's. As is implied in this thread, if any part of that mass is out of balance then there is the potential to induce vibration.
On the other hand, all of that mass spins in/on bearings/bearing surfaces. Thoughts?
I always enjoy a good puzzle....
-
Nope. I balanced the engine/clutch/flywheel. Still has a vibration at 2200. The only thing left to check is the alternator. (?)
no one rides a Guzzi at 2200 rpm
-
My '03 has developed a vibration on the left floorboard at various rpms. It's never shaken the mirrors but you can feel in your shoe. It's been a long time since I've had it balanced so I'm going to head to Screamday's house one day, but that's the first thing I thought of when it started.
Definitely not the transmission as it did it before and after the death rattle incident.
-
no one rides a Guzzi at 2200 rpm
normzone does
-
The mufflers are often a source of vibration. They hang off of aluminum castings that are none to rigid. You can fabricate some stiffeners that mount behind the castings in place of the spacers that are there.
Odd as it sounds, this can be very true. I noticed this the first time back in 1995 when I removed the heavy stock exhaust from a Sportster and installed a Supertrapp 2:1 system. The bike's vibrations changed and were slightly smoother.
krglorioso, do both your bikes have the same exhaust systems?
-
I can say this: Every Guzzi I've ridden has had different types and amounts of vibration. I have chalked it up to the main reason being difference in engine balance from the factory. Of course, lots of other things can contribute, but I think each bike/engine has its unique characteristics.
-
no one rides a Guzzi at 2200 rpm
true, but you've gotta go through it both up and down. <shrug>
-
I with the muffler/exhaust and the rpm crowd. Cover your tach with tape if you have one and run the motor in the gear that give the least amount of vibration for your speed. 5th gear is useless under 70 mph on my bike.
-
Rocker: Yes, both Stones have the full OEM Exhaust. Originally the vibrator had a Stucchi crossover and Mistral "silencers" and it vibrated with them so I removed them and now that bike is quieter, of course, but vibrates as much as ever.
Both of my Stone Touring models came with the dual disc clutch and had the valve gear recalls done prior to sale.
I did check the headers to frame clearances and they do not contact the frame anywhere. I pulled the alternator cover and there is no looseness in the rotor's fit on the end of the crank. I get a steady 13.7v on my digital voltmeter above about 2000 rpm (no tach). I also checked the clearance between the crossover expansion chamber and any nearby frame parts and there was clearance all around. With the expansion chamber fitted, the bike is pretty quiet and I will run it briefly without the mufflers just to "rule out" these as a source of the problem. All nuts and bolts are snug.
Bike vibrates on or off throttle, when above idle, in our out of gear with engine running, but not when coasting in neutral at 50-70 mph with gearbox in neutral or clutch disengaged and engine idling. Smooth when engine is idling, no matter how fast the rest of the bike is moving. Vibrations felt through grips and footrests. Darned nuisance.
Thanks to all who responded with suggestions. I'm out of ideas. I will invest in an hour or two of David Harris' expertise at the Zen House motorcycle shop in Point Arena next month. There's nothing like riding a problem to help diagnose it.
By the way, this bike has the 7/33 rear drive and I generally cruise at 65-70 mph, at which rpm it's pretty smooth. Let the revs drop a bit and the vibrations return with gusto.
Ralph
-
Rocker: Yes, both Stones have the full OEM Exhaust. Originally the vibrator had a Stucchi crossover and Mistral "silencers" and it vibrated with them so I removed them and now that bike is quieter, of course, but vibrates as much as ever.
Both of my Stone Touring models came with the dual disc clutch and had the valve gear recalls done prior to sale.
I did check the headers to frame clearances and they do not contact the frame anywhere. I pulled the alternator cover and there is no looseness in the rotor's fit on the end of the crank. I get a steady 13.7v on my digital voltmeter above about 2000 rpm (no tach). I also checked the clearance between the crossover expansion chamber and any nearby frame parts and there was clearance all around. With the expansion chamber fitted, the bike is pretty quiet and I will run it briefly without the mufflers just to "rule out" these as a source of the problem. All nuts and bolts are snug.
Bike vibrates on or off throttle, when above idle, in our out of gear with engine running, but not when coasting in neutral at 50-70 mph with gearbox in neutral or clutch disengaged and engine idling. Smooth when engine is idling, no matter how fast the rest of the bike is moving. Vibrations felt through grips and footrests. Darned nuisance.
Thanks to all who responded with suggestions. I'm out of ideas. I will invest in an hour or two of David Harris' expertise at the Zen House motorcycle shop in Point Arena next month. There's nothing like riding a problem to help diagnose it.
By the way, this bike has the 7/33 rear drive and I generally cruise at 65-70 mph, at which rpm it's pretty smooth. Let the revs drop a bit and the vibrations return with gusto.
Ralph
The thing with Guzzis is there is a lot of mass rotating around in there, far more than an equivient capacity 90deg V twin such as any Ducati.
So if the factory got the crank balance wrong then its probably going to be very wrong.
Next time you have the sump off for an oil change have a look up at the crank bob weights and see if the balance holes the factory have drilled are concentrated in one area of the weights or if they are dispersed around the weights somewhat. Dispersed holes would indicate a difficult to balance crank, tightly clustered holes would indicate a nice well cast crank.
Its not difinitive as it could just have a bad balance job from the factory anyway but its something to check.
Cant recall if Guzzi balance their crank and flywheel assemblies as a unit, I suspect not, which is a good thing.
The flywheel and clutch assy is another suspect as well and the same applies with regard to balance holes.
Ciao
-
Buckshot packed in the handlebars will help!
-
Buckshot packed in the handlebars will help!
Well you would be trying to treat the symptom and not the issue there. People also assume that its just a matter on adding some mass to the offending part thats vibrating and it will fix it or improve it. Rarely is this the case. factories spend a lot of time and effort designing critical parts to account for resonant frequencies and its rarely a case of adding mass to correct. It may have some effect like shifting the vibes around to a different RPM but it may also be better or worse at the new frequency. Its just not that easy and adding mass to the steering is not ideal.
Gets me thinking though, have you checked the handle bars for cracks?
Ciao
-
Well you would be trying to treat the symptom and not the issue there. People also assume that its just a matter on adding some mass to the offending part thats vibrating and it will fix it or improve it. Rarely is this the case. factories spend a lot of time and effort designing critical parts to account for resonant frequencies and its rarely a case of adding mass to correct. It may have some effect like shifting the vibes around to a different RPM but it may also be better or worse at the new frequency. Its just not that easy and adding mass to the steering is not ideal.
Gets me thinking though, have you checked the handle bars for cracks?
Ciao
Do you really think Guzzi spent more than about .001 minutes thinking about the resonant frequency of the handlebars they installed on that bike ??
-
Nope. I balanced the engine/clutch/flywheel. Still has a vibration at 2200. The only thing left to check is the alternator. (?)
Chuck, that sucker is super smooth, I was looking for the vibe at 2200, but I don't ride their. My 02 Cal SS is very smooth as well. the only perfectly smooth guzzi I've had was my 72 Eldo, could barely tell the engine was running
-
Buckshot packed in the handlebars will help!
There may be a lot to this.
My Stelvio was a bit of a shaker at higher RPM. I never put much thought into it, it just had more annoying vibration.
Then the mirrors with the turn signals in them started to self-destruct. The replacement mirror got rid of the annoying vibs.
-
" Nobody rides a guzzi at 2200 RPM " - " normzone does " said [fotoguzzi]
Why, I do believe I'm being baited...that number is much closer to what my bike idles at - but since I'm busy chasing charging issues at this moment I will decline to pick up that gauntlet for now :boxing:
-
Vibes are not just from a motor. A Goldwing has a smooth motor but the bars are mounted solidly to the triple trees which transfer "jolts" thru the bars. My arms go numb with this jolting. I use some "XL" weights with Helibars loaded with buckshot and padded grips. Life is good.
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/juturtle/IMG_4497_zpse37dd979.jpg) (http://s45.photobucket.com/user/juturtle/media/IMG_4497_zpse37dd979.jpg.html)
-
no one rides a Guzzi at 2200 rpm
That HD rider with the Guzzi that he sold after a month did :evil: :grin:
Dusty :grin:
-
Buckshot packed in the handlebars will help!
John: Soon after I bought this bike I sourced 15oz billet stainless bar ends (from Hudson Valley Motorcycle Parts). Now, that's just an ounce less than a pound each. Some reduction in vibration through the grips, but only a small improvement.
Ralph
-
Phil: I have tried several different bars on this bike. Pesent ones bought new (EMGO low flat track bars--Dusty would approve). No change in vibration, but I much prefer these bars' shape to the OEM Stone "beach bars".
I also removed the risers and examined the rubber grommets for any problems and found none. I've really tried to pull together all my experience (I worked full time as a Velocette mechanic in the early 1960s!) but the answer here has eluded me. I am inclined to believe there is an internal balance problem. Fortunately, at cruising rpm it's not a problem.
Ralph
-
Good thing Ralph never rode an EV. :grin:
-
Good thing Ralph never rode an EV. :grin:
Two years ago, I rode Don Van Zandt's 2004 EV for 180 miles and noted how smooth is was. Were my 04 Stone that smooth, I'd be a happy lad.
ralph
-
I DO approve :bike-037: :grin
Ralph , it is kind of a pain , but it might be necessary to pull the rods and pistons and weigh them . There were a VERY few airheads that had slightly mismatched rod/piston sets . They needed a good balancing to be smooth .
Dusty
-
http://barsnake.com/
on my 98 EV I went so far as to fill the bars with lead. heavy as you would expect and only somewhat better. I then put on a set of super bike bars. they were empty at first and being a shorter reach and narrower they made the bike handle better but I didn't like the forward lean. Rox risers has a set of I think it was 5" adjustable mounts that bring them up to more normal position and they feel great. I then used the bar snake and it really killed off the vibration for me. carpal tunnel surgery really helped too. try the bar snake they also have a liquid version too.
-
Why, I do believe I'm being baited...that number is much closer to what my bike idles at - but since I'm busy chasing charging issues at this moment I will decline to pick up that gauntlet for now :boxing:
applogies to you norm, was thinking of That HD rider with the Guzzi that he sold after a month did :evil: :grin:
Dusty :grin: