Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xlratr on August 30, 2015, 11:02:19 AM
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Although my flat tappet Stelvio hadn't shown any signs of cam / tappet failure, I decided to do the roller conversion anyway. I started to think it's just a question of time. This wasn't an easy decision because it was running beautifully, and it's also not a cheap thing to do if it's at your own cast. It's a bit unfortunate because comparing VIN numbers, I think I have one of the last 80 flat tappet Stelvios built.
I always thought that my engine was pretty quiet, but with the roller tappets it's now a tick quieter. Runs just the same as before, although it might be a little less willing to rev up above 6500. I may be imagining that though. That needs some more observation.
My bike has covered 22,000 km, so not much. When I had a look at the cams I thought they were fine, but after taking them out of the cam boxes I could see some noticeable wear on the lobes, although no scuffing. But on the exhaust can lobe I can feel a ridge with my fingernail, so I think some of the surface is definitely worn through. I would say nothing critical yet, but in another 10,000 km they probably would have been worn out.
On the cam box cover you can see the engraving 173/12 which could mean 17. March 2012. That would fit with the purchase date of early April, as the dealer had just got the bike in. As I said, I believe one of the last flat tappet motors.
Sorry there are no pictures here, but I've always used Tapatalk for that and this site is currently not compatible. But if you're interested, I posted some on the ADV rider Stelvio thread.
John
EDIT 02Sep: Got a Photobucket Account set up, so here a couple of pics.
The first picture shows the left side tappets. The second picture shows the left side cams.
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t505/Xlratr/Mobile%20Uploads/2471088E-CBC4-404B-8EDF-E7D22FF175D8.jpg)
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t505/Xlratr/Mobile%20Uploads/C3EE4294-62DC-4935-B7D4-492FDC962F18.jpg)
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It sounds as if you made the right decision ,an once of prevention is worth a pound of weed. Or something like that. Did you perform the surgery yourself? Are you still running the factory fuel map? How was the wear on the cam followers? Just curios. dave
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It's the tappet said that fail not the cams. How do the tappet said look?
Pete
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It's the tappet said that fail not the cams. How do the tappet said look?
Pete
There was slight pitting on the inlet side (one small spot) otherwise smooth. Sorry I can't post a picture here, but I put a picture of the tappets on the ADV rider Stelvio thread. I think it hadn't really started to fail yet, but it wouldn't have been long. I think I caught it right at the beginning.
John
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It sounds as if you made the right decision ,an once of prevention is worth a pound of weed. Or something like that. Did you perform the surgery yourself? Are you still running the factory fuel map? How was the wear on the cam followers? Just curios. dave
I planned on doing it myself, as it doesn't look too complicated, but finally I had the dealer do it. A few months back I found a dealer not too far away that actually made a good impression and seemed very competent. So I let him do it.
See above my comment on the followers.
I have been running my own map for the last 12,000 km.
John
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I just took a look at your pics on adv rider. It sure looks like a significant amount of dlc has gone missing from the surface of the tappets. I think this should have been considered a failure and parts covered by Guzzi. I would think a complete oil circuit back flush would be in order, and perhaps an inspection of the vanes on the oil pumps. Had you noticed a change in running behavior prior to the conversion? Particularly idle behavior? Or a sudden increase in valve gaps?
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Could you supply a link to the ADV rider thread?
Thanks
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http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/moto-guzzi-stelvio-merged-threadfest.113158/page-689
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Could you supply a link to the ADV rider thread?
Thanks
Hope this works!
http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/Moto-Guzzi-Stelvio-%28merged%29-threadfest%2E%2E%2E.113158/
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Had you noticed a change in running behavior prior to the conversion? Particularly idle behavior? Or a sudden increase in valve gaps?
No, the bike was running perfectly. No idle issues and no valve clearances opening up.
John
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Look at post # 13776
http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/moto-guzzi-stelvio-merged-threadfest.113158/page-689
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Bill just sent me the link. Thanks guys.
Yes, classic failure of the DLC coating. They were just starting to go. When you look at the damage with an electron microscope you can clearly see how the coating de-laminates and then gets pounded to a slurry by the cam flanks. That stuff is very hard, (Hence its name, diamond like carbon.) and if the damage isn't caught early it does a lot of damage as it circulates in the oil.
Pete
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Bill just sent me the link. Thanks guys.
Yes, classic failure of the DLC coating. They were just starting to go. When you look at the damage with an electron microscope you can clearly see how the coating de-laminates and then gets pounded to a slurry by the cam flanks. That stuff is very hard, (Hence its name, diamond like carbon.) and if the damage isn't caught early it does a lot of damage as it circulates in the oil.
Pete
Pete, do you think this was caught early enough that an oil and filter change is sufficient?
John
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In all honesty I'd drop the sump and give it a really good clean out and back-flush the oil cooler just to be certain. Those tappets are in the very earliest stage of failure, the fact the lash gaps hadn't begun to change and the engine was still running normally is an indication of how early you caught it, (Mine looked very similar.).
Pic of surface taken with electron microscope. You can clearly see the delamination and damage caused to the substrate.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8562/15384876014_dbee53f094_b.jpg)
As you can see once it starts the degeneration is swift and extreme!
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7468/15863677185_fb6e93dfef_z.jpg)
If you are running your own map I assume it's an open loop one? The 8V is extraordinarily sensitive to changes in clearance and while the engine is running closed loop it will trim around early wear with an open loop map it becomes immediately apparent when stuff starts to go wrong?
You will find that you'll have to alter the map for the roller top end as well, the cam profiles are significantly different between flat and roller, I've found on my Griso that using the map I was previously running its like hitting a brick walk at six grand at large throttle openings. It's similar but a more extreme feeling as I had with much earlier iterations of the Mistral Hi-Pipe/dbk map. I'll be rollerising Mark's bike soon though and then we'll start serious logging work to develop roller suitable maps.
Pete
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So, help me with this ...... when will Piaggio cover the cost of the kit? Obviously, I don't want to run my Griso until the point that little particles of DXX (whatever the hell the hard coating is) have ground into big end bearings and other critical mechanical components. I realize, Pete, that you ran your early version Griso for lots of miles before deciding to rollerize it. Based on what I see on this forum, is there some reason, other than Piaggio economics, that they won't provide the roller kit if the owner is willing to pick up the cost of installation? By way of comparison, BMW is currently picking up the cost of replacing the rear drive flanges on all affected bikes over several model years. Appreciably, BMW has lots more $$ than Moto Guzzi, but Piaggio has deep pockets, too, and should consider doing the right thing, ie, supplying me and other owners with the roller conversion kit if we are willing to pay for the installation. Actually, they should pick up 100% of the cost of swapping out the flat tappets and replacing them with roller tappets. And, of course, Piaggio should insist the work is done only by shops with technicians trained on replacing the tappets.
OK, I'm done with this rant, knowing full well I am what I am and that's all what I am! In other words, nowhere.
Of course, after reading that the rollers then require the owner to research aftermarket maps to regain previous performance (hit a wall at 6500rpm on a Griso .... you have to be kidding!?) ..... well, what the hell, maybe I'll simply act like I've never read any of the posts on this site, and run the little begger until it blows. At least she winds to 8000rpm with flat tappets with the greatest of ease.
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Unfortunately piaggio will not, under any circumstances, replace the flat tappet top end pre-emptively. It has to fail first. Why? Cost obviously. A certain number of bikes won't be ridden enough to fail or may be written off before failure can occur. Also some bikes seem to soldier on forever.
Do I think this is reasonable or right? No, I think it sucks balls, but there is nothing I or any other dealer, service agent or importer can do about it.
Pete
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Of course, after reading that the rollers then require the owner to research aftermarket maps to regain previous performance (hit a wall at 6500rpm on a Griso .... you have to be kidding!?) ..... well, what the hell, maybe I'll simply act like I've never read any of the posts on this site, and run the little begger until it blows. At least she winds to 8000rpm with flat tappets with the greatest of ease.
No, no, no. The rollers will work fine with the factory map. It's only those running open-loop non-stock maps that need to get updated.
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Yeah, I just picked up on that. Bob, the factory closed loop map will trim around the change. It's one of the advantages of running a closed loop system in that it will trim around discrepancies. It's a double edged sword though as it will also mask the early stages of tappet failure.
As I've said before though once the failure progresses enough that the change in pumping can't be trimmed around the symptoms are an unwillingness to idle when cold and then a low idle once the engine is out of the warm-up cycle.
Pete
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Actually Pete,you personally have done an extraordinary service to all of us flat tappet 8v owners by sharing what you have learned about these failures. It is unfortunate that Piaggio keeps us all in the dark on this , although I do commend them for at least providing the parts should it fail, even out of warranty. Many of us have decided to pay out of pocket for the swap as you did, and with the information you have so graciously shared with us, many will catch this early and avoid even more expense. The 8v is truly a great motor and if you got to pay to play, count me in . Many of us will spend more on an exhaust can than the cost of the roller kit so wtf. If it makes you sleep better, I say get it done. Many thanks for your time and expertise. dave
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What pisses me off is that we, the people at the pointy end, get told NOTHING! Why? Why do we have to sort it out and isolate a cause? All we get told is "If this happens? Do this!" It's not confidence inspiring.
Pete
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No, no, no. The rollers will work fine with the factory map. It's only those running open-loop non-stock maps that need to get updated.
With the rollers in, and with my flat tappet map, it runs very well up to around 6500rpm, after which it feels very slightly less willing. Not a massive difference, but I think I will be hooking up the Logger again to see what's happening. It's definitely not like the "running into a brick wall" effect that Pete experienced though.
In my understanding the narrow band sensor is not able to operate above (approx.) 5,000rpm and even a bike equipped with the standard map will go into open loop at that point (or at wide open throttle positions). Is it really possible for a closed loop map to trim itself at high RPMS?
John
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That was originally my understanding too but the source of that pearl of wisdom has long been discredited in my book so my answer is I'm really not sure.
My guess would be though that it will trim pretty much all the way through but because the narrow band sensor takes a few seconds to trim it won't often get the chance. In lower gears with a wide open throttle it will bounce off the limiter before it has time to trim and in higher gears you'll be going 'Fuque me drunkque' fast which can be problematic!
Pete
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That was originally my understanding too but the source of that pearl of wisdom has long been discredited in my book so my answer is I'm really not sure.
My guess would be though that it will trim pretty much all the way through but because the narrow band sensor takes a few seconds to trim it won't often get the chance. In lower gears with a wide open throttle it will bounce off the limiter before it has time to trim and in higher gears you'll be going 'Fuque me drunkque' fast which can be problematic!
Pete
But a narrow band sensor can effectively only trim to 14.7:1, and that would be a trifle too lean at high rpms and open throttle.
I'll do some logging and report back. I live in the land of the Autobahn (the last freedom of the Germans! :grin:) where "Fuque me drunkque fast" is still a possibility! :cool:
John
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I don't believe they trim above a certain throttle/rpm point. I suspect only Marelli knows the exact point. I reckon the closed loop area operates at and below 4000 rpm and 20% throttle. Oh, and above an engine temp of 60. There is no need for it to trim the whole range.
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OK, but if that is so how come the Grs8V-03 map works with the roller set up? I would of expected that it would have a lousy effect in the same area that the open loop maps are which is high throttle, high RPM?
Pete
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The open loop maps I build have targeted AFR for 'lean best torque' (I hate that term) with a lot more spark advance, for specific pipes. They run with a much narrower set parameters than the 03 map can. You know yourself what happens if the valve clearances are set differently than my a Griso. Performance is affected. The rollers clearly change the engine characteristics so that the map no longer meets the target.
The 03 map runs rich outside the closed loop area, and has a mild spark advance compared with my maps. I'm sure they bikes run different with the 03 map and rollers, but its rich enough to mask any differences. My maps are custom, not general purpose.
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Makes sense. Thanks.
Pete
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OK, but if that is so how come the Grs8V-03 map works with the roller set up? I would of expected that it would have a lousy effect in the same area that the open loop maps are which is high throttle, high RPM?
Pete
I think the standard map is incredibly rich at high RPM, at least my Stelvio map was. The AFR was in the 11s at some points. I trimmed mine down to an AFR of 12.8 (edit: at wide throttle openings) when I had the flat tappets in. Just speculating but maybe the roller set up needs a bit more fuel? Maybe the map you had in the Griso was a bit leaner than my Stelvio map so the switch to rollers caused more of a "brick wall effect"? Again, just speculating. Logging may give some clue.
John
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Whale sheit........
Just pulled a cam box. Not pretty.
50,000 miles. Janu-wine yak fat lube.
Only ridden to work gently. :evil:
Now I hope there is a kit C in the US.
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/worwig/publicshare/th_20150901_134813.jpg) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/worwig/media/publicshare/20150901_134813.jpg.html)
Glad my 2004 hydraulic lifter EV never had these issues.
:boozing:
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They're a long way gone Wayne. Hopefully your oil pumps will be OK.
Last time I looked ETA for 'C' kit in USA was six to eight weeks but one of the blokes on the Ghetto, (Might of been Lucian?) was expecting a delay and one turned up in a week! You might get lucky.
Pete
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Wayne, did you have any indication of a problem?
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So, looking at the pics of the tappets from Wayne's engine, it appears there is none of the hardening material left on the tappet(s). Is it possible that this loose stuff might make only one or two passes through the oil galleys before getting captured in the oil filter? And perhaps the pump gears are sturdy enough that a pass or two of this stuff will cause little damage?
Curious minds (and Griso 8vSE owner) want to know.
Bob
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The oil pumps are trochoidal, 'Gerotor' type pumps rather than spur gear types. The problem is that the pumps are the only bit of the engine that gets unfiltered lubricating oil but the cooling circuit is un-filtered. This is why it is important to back-flush the lines and cooler as bits of mount can get lodged in them but flush through later reviving wear problems. If the engine is used hard from cold the main filter for the lubrication circuit may go into bypass and its then the real problems can start as crap can get fed through the mains and big ends.
Pete
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The oil pumps are trochoidal, 'Gerotor' type pumps rather than spur gear types. The problem is that the pumps are the only bit of the engine that gets unfiltered lubricating oil but the cooling circuit is un-filtered. This is why it is important to back-flush the lines and cooler as bits of mount can get lodged in them but flush through later reviving wear problems. If the engine is used hard from cold the main filter for the lubrication circuit may go into bypass and its then the real problems can start as crap can get fed through the mains and big ends.
Pete
Oh, joy. Thanks for the warning, anyway..
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That I'm pretty sure is what happened to Mark Salkeld's engine. There was clear particulate scouring of the big ends. Luckily the mains survived as the front main is now integral with the crankcase. The back one had a couple of tiny scores but I had a warranty take off rear that I machined to rectify the original fault so that was tickets-boo again and, (Guzzi content.) didn't cost anything. :grin:
Mark's big ends with particulate scoring.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5466/16996440234_44f755d10c.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7792/16996441414_2282471626.jpg)
And some other blockhead's after he spent too much time acting the goat on the back wheel! :sad:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/382/19452224593_91750c7074.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/323/20065293332_bef09437a8.jpg)
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Yup Wayne ,it was me. I ordered my c kit from Seacoast Sport Cycle in New Hampshire and took less than two weeks. Like Pete said when I placed the order they said six to eight weeks and it showed right up, hope you have the same luck. I am hoping to get to it next week. I am anxious to see what my tappets look like at 6000 miles. I have heard of failures occurring at even less mileage. I can't see the point of waiting now that I have a kit. I am not looking forward to going back to the 03 map though.Best of luck with yours. If for some reason you can't get a kit right off, first of the week I'll know if my flat tappets are any good,if they are you can have them. Dave
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Yup Wayne ,it was me. I ordered my c kit from Seacoast Sport Cycle in New Hampshire and took less than two weeks. Like Pete said when I placed the order they said six to eight weeks and it showed right up, hope you have the same luck.
Well, luckily, or unluckily, I have other issues keeping me from riding much right now. But I hope to have everything resolved in a month or so. I have the EV as a fallback anyway, but still....
As for how I noticed it. I did a valve adjustment, maybe a bit earlier than normal. Notice it was off a bit more that expected. Maybe it was a bit noisy, I would never know.
I checked with my shop and they said the kit C was not in the US, and they would need clear evidence before ordering the kit.
Adjusted and rode it maybe 100 miles just to verify I wasn't nuts. It had changed already. Bummer.
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....... I checked with my shop and they said the kit C was not in the US, and they would need clear evidence before ordering the kit.
I would hope your photo of the heavily-worn tappet would be all the clear evidence they (your shop) would need to proceed with the warranty order for the C kit.
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Well, luckily, or unluckily, I have other issues keeping me from riding much right now. But I hope to have everything resolved in a month or so. I have the EV as a fallback anyway, but still....
As for how I noticed it. I did a valve adjustment, maybe a bit earlier than normal. Notice it was off a bit more that expected. Maybe it was a bit noisy, I would never know.
I checked with my shop and they said the kit C was not in the US, and they would need clear evidence before ordering the kit.
Adjusted and rode it maybe 100 miles just to verify I wasn't nuts. It had changed already. Bummer.
You sound calm enough, but do you feel like this is satisfactory engine longevity for a normally-priced European touring motorcycle? I have a BSA with 50,000 miles on it that hasn't wrung out its cams yet.
I know we say "You have to pay to play" etc etc :tongue: but for those of us who actually ride our motorcycles, this isn't many miles per dollar.
I ask because I have the same bike approaching 40,000 miles, and this business of "Before the company will admit that they sold you a crap bike, you must provide notarized certified Secret Squirrel evidence of damage" is a little worrisome to me.
Lannis
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You sound calm enough, but do you feel like this is satisfactory engine longevity for a normally-priced European touring motorcycle? I have a BSA with 50,000 miles on it that hasn't wrung out its cams yet.
I had a Honda that ate a cam at around 8000 miles. It was just out of warranty. It was a known issue in 1983. Honda was happy to SELL me everything I needed to repair it. And the Honda design made it a LOT of work. A friend of mine lost a motor due to that cam issue, out of warranty. That bike, a V65 Sabre, was basically a write off.
My 2004 EV never had a problem, but MG installed a fix long out of warranty for free, just in case. MG is (likely) going to give me a repair kit for this worth well over $1K on a 6 year old bike. I'm disappointed, but MG appears to stand behind their products better than Honda in my experience.
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You sound calm enough, but do you feel like this is satisfactory engine longevity for a normally-priced European touring motorcycle? I have a BSA with 50,000 miles on it that hasn't wrung out its cams yet.
I also don't think that engine components should wear out at 22,000 km, but I'm not going to get too upset about it. I understand that with all the best intentions in the world, things can go wrong in a design. I still love the bike and there's no new motorcycle out there I'd rather have. So I'm trying to look at it as a "one time service item". (and there ARE bikes out there with very high service costs!).
What I really think could be better is the policy regarding waiting until something bad happens before support is forthcoming. I would have appreciated an offer to cover the cost of parts on a pre-emptive conversion if the parts proved defective on removal. Even 50% coverage would be OK. And it would be fairer if that was valid on a bike without official service history too, as long as no negligence is apparent (after all, it is a known fault. They make Kits for it!). But anyway, it's done now and I'm happy. :thumb:
But I'd still love to know why it happens. I always used the correct oil at the correct intervals or earlier. Around 80% of my mileage was long distance, I've never seen "mayo". I hardly ever ride in the rain or in cold damp weather. Valve clearances were always set meticulously. Shrug!!!
PS: Lannis, at 40k and if you're seriously thinking about keeping the bike, my recommendation would be to get it done.
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Well, luckily, or unluckily, I have other issues keeping me from riding much right now.
Hope it's nothing serious..
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What I really think could be better is the policy regarding waiting until something bad happens before support is forthcoming.
But I'd still love to know why it happens. I always used the correct oil at the correct intervals or earlier. .
Yes, Piaggio requires it to be an obvious failure before they react. In my case once I suspected it, I rode a bit more to be sure. I didn't want to pull a cam box and see nothing. But then yesterday when I pulled the cam box, it wasn't as big a deal as I thought. So yes, I may have sent more crap through the motor.
My money for WHY, is the same WHY as the hydraulic lift issue. There is a valve spring in there that is a bit too strong. It overloads that lifter. People that had early failures, Stelvios AND hydraulics, have had repeated failures, because that bad valve spring is still in place. The hydraulic update was all about getting the valve springs shimmed properly. My $.02. I'll measure the failing springs versus the non-failing.
Hope it's nothing serious..
Neck / spine / nerve issues. Anything with the head up is painful. I still ride to work, but I grit my teeth so much I now need dental repair work.
(insert political medical rant here)
Dilliw has provided a quart jar of pain reliever. :boozing:
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I had a Honda that ate a cam at around 8000 miles. It was just out of warranty. It was a known issue in 1983. Honda was happy to SELL me everything I needed to repair it. And the Honda design made it a LOT of work. A friend of mine lost a motor due to that cam issue, out of warranty. That bike, a V65 Sabre, was basically a write off.
My 2004 EV never had a problem, but MG installed a fix long out of warranty for free, just in case. MG is (likely) going to give me a repair kit for this worth well over $1K on a 6 year old bike. I'm disappointed, but MG appears to stand behind their products better than Honda in my experience.
V65 cam issues were almost all lubrication related. The usual cause was lugging the engine thinking that a big bore V4 was the ideal candidate for running around at 2500 rpms. Honda made new cams. My Honda 750F had the dreaded value guide problem long after the warranty ran out, they took care of it without question.
I had to go to 3 different Suzuki dealers before one of them actually send the inquiry and got me a new ECU for the V-Strom, which was years out of warranty, no charge.
Often, the problem will get fixed, finding the right dealer is key to that success. Sometimes it takes going past the "no" to get the yes.
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Honda is the worst on warranties. I bought a brand new VFR 800 in 2002. The first time I went to adjust the chain I found the rear sprocket was out of round and caused a tight spot in the chain and zero slack only when the wheel was in a certain spot.
Honda refused to believe this was possible even after I demonstrated it in the dealers lot. They claimed I didn't lube the chain right and it failed within 6 weeks after purchase. Had to pay for the sprocket myself and problem solved. Bastards! :violent1:
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V65 cam issues were almost all lubrication related.
Ya think? They lubed the top end after the oil managed to make it's way through the clutch. Practically zero oil pressure to the top end. "The Fix" was to tap into the main oil gallery and send pressurized oil up there. Honda's engineering is generally pretty good. Everyone has a brain fart now and then.. :smiley:
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Has anyone got the VIN numbers for Stelvios' manufactured with rollers ? Mines a 2012 purchased in Jan 2013 .
Cheers ,
Steve
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Whip a rocker cover off and have a look. It's a five minute job.
Pete
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Has anyone got the VIN numbers for Stelvios' manufactured with rollers ? Mines a 2012 purchased in Jan 2013 .
Cheers ,
Steve
Has anyone got the VIN numbers for Stelvios' manufactured with rollers ? Mines a 2012 purchased in Jan 2013 .
Here you go....
Quote from: Curtis Harper on February 24, 2013, 10:20:59 AM
According to Piaggio, Roller tappets are in the following engines.
Stelvio AC : After AC12596 03/12/2012
riso A8 : After 13524 04/12/2012
Norge AA : After 12214 04/18/2012
Considering then those engines actually got fitted and in bikes shipped to dealers, 3rd-4th qtr
2012 is about right for most.
« ast Edit: August 25, 2015, 11:54:57 PM by Norge Pilot »
Cheers ,
Steve
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My money for WHY, is the same WHY as the hydraulic lift issue. There is a valve spring in there that is a bit too strong. It overloads that lifter. People that had early failures, Stelvios AND hydraulics, have had repeated failures, because that bad valve spring is still in place. The hydraulic update was all about getting the valve springs shimmed properly. My $.02. I'll measure the failing springs versus the non-failing.
I don't think it's a spring issue simply because after they realised that they were flogging a dead horse with the flat tappets they started adding the preload shims to the inlet valves at the factory to minimise cost and downtime when they started the roller tappet roll out. If to much spring was an issue you'd expect these 'Halfway' bikes to have a higher attrition rate than those without the shims. Unfortunately they don't, they all seem to fail willy-nilly but certainly cool running and damp weather won't help as shown by the failure rate in different markets. It's also noticeable that it is always the exhaust valve tappets that seem to fail first and worst and while these have less mass to move they run substantially hotter.
It has been widely recognised that DLC has attatchment issues with a ferrous substrate, it is also very susceptible to degradation by the use of certain lubrication additives. While I don't think we'll ever know with 100% certainty whether it has A cause or if it's a combination of factors the evidence remains that poor servicing, the wrong oil and over-cooling will produce the 'Perfect Storm' that precipitates failure.
Pete
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ACO12980 so I'm relieved . Thanks Mark , much appreciated .
Steve
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I don't think it's a spring issue simply because after they realised that they were flogging a dead horse with the flat tappets they started adding the preload shims to the inlet valves at the factory to minimise cost and downtime when they started the roller tappet roll out. If to much spring was an issue you'd expect these 'Halfway' bikes to have a higher attrition rate than those without the shims.........
.......... It's also noticeable that it is always the exhaust valve tappets that seem to fail first and worst and while these have less mass to move they run substantially hotter.
Pete
Since I got a Photobucket account I added a couple of pictures (of the left side tappets and cams) to the original post.
Here's a new picture showing the right side. Slightly less wear and no rough spot yet. The surfaces are absolutely smooth, although the coating is almost worn through. But it's interesting that you mention the exhaust side is always worse, because in my case it's the opposite. As I say, this picture shows the right cylinder tappets. The exhaust tappet only shows a tiny bit of wear, whereas the coating on the inlet side is almost through. Both cylinders show this same pattern of exhaust wear being less than inlet wear.
Like Wayne, I was also thinking it might have something to do with spring pressure and/or clearances. The inlet valve clearance IS slightly less than the exhaust (longer duration of contact between cam and tappet??), although I can't imagine that would make so much of a difference. By the way, I believe mine was one of the very last flat tappets (I assume with the inlet preload you mentioned?).
John
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t505/Xlratr/Mobile%20Uploads/5371C040-DFA4-436A-967D-2E819A2B7230.jpg)
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Well that's a first in my experience.
Note also that the whole point of different clearances, set cold, between inlet and exhaust valves, is to compensate for the extra expansion due to heat of assorted components. Ideally there should be a tiny but adequate clearance at the hottest temperature the valve train runs at. The problem with identifying this minimal clearance is of course that to check it the engine has to be stopped and stuff taken off/set up before the clearance can be measured. During that time things are cooling, rapidly, and therefore changing size and shape. You can work things out with basic metallurgy theory by knowing the C of E of the various parts and there respective sizes but since the *True* operating temperature is pretty much immeasurable there is always going to be an element of guesswork and experience of the examiner to be taken in to account.
Pete
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So, when, or if, I can get the roller assembly. Are those cams shimmed for end float? Is my Stelvio not going to sound like a cement mixer any more?
:cool:
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So, when, or if, I can get the roller assembly. Are those cams shimmed for end float? Is my Stelvio not going to sound like a cement mixer any more?
:cool:
Well this is timely... Mine sounds like a cement mixer. Great.
When I bought the Stelvio in Phoenix, the PO told me that a recall had been done by a dealer in Colorado...long story.
Does that mean the recall was just a different tappet or rollers...? Yes Pete, I will pop the tops off but I cannot right this second. What will I see when I do...? Are the rollers visible right at the rocker assemblies...?
I was so looking forward to riding the wheels off this Stelvio, I love this thing.
Best,
Rob
Hope you feel better soon Wayne...
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I will pop the tops off but I cannot right this second. What will I see when I do...? Are the rollers visible right at the rocker assemblies...?
Rob, I'm not familiar with the original recall, but I think that's something quite different to the flat/roller issue.
If you pop off the valve covers you can spot the difference. With the Flat Tappet you can see a metal tube just visible, which is the shaft of the cam followers coming up. The Roller version looks quite different there.
The first picture shows the Flat Tappet version (I pinched this from another post, I don't remember from whom).
The second picture shows the Roller version.
John
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t505/Xlratr/Mobile%20Uploads/BDDA21A2-98CD-47C0-9F8A-8ACB8F499579.jpg)
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t505/Xlratr/Mobile%20Uploads/C386FB82-7C31-4E7E-BC64-9430271E496D.jpg)
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Rob, I'm not familiar with the original recall, but I think that's something quite different to the flat/roller issue.
John
I'll look up the dealer's name when I get home, give them a call and ask them what they did to this engine and whether there is anything else I need to know about the '09 engine.
Thanks John,
Rob
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I'll look up the dealer's name when I get home, give them a call and ask them what they did to this engine and whether there is anything else I need to know about the '09 engine.
Thanks John,
Rob
I have the '09 engine in my Griso. They were recalled for the soft cam issue aka "B" spec. They make a mark under the rocker cover when it is done. That is not the roller tappets which is "C" spec I believe.
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I'll look up the dealer's name when I get home, give them a call and ask them what they did to this engine and whether there is anything else I need to know about the '09 engine.
No point.
That recall was just to upgrade to harder parts. Mine had that recall done at about the 1000 mile mark.
That recall obviously was not the full answer.
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I have the '09 engine in my Griso. They were recalled for the soft cam issue aka "B" spec. They make a mark under the rocker cover when it is done. That is not the roller tappets which is "C" spec I believe.
Copy that...
No point.
That recall was just to upgrade to harder parts. Mine had that recall done at about the 1000 mile mark.
That recall obviously was not the full answer.
So my '09, like yours is in the running for needing this roller upgrade...? :shocked: :sad:
And I was in such a good mood.
Thanks,
Rob
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Copy that...
So my '09, like yours is in the running for needing this roller upgrade...? :shocked: :sad:
And I was in such a good mood.
Thanks,
Rob
Yeah, tell me about it .... :tongue: :undecided: :shocked: :blank:
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Whoa! Hang on, no, let's do a bit of ancient history.
When the 8V motor was launched its first designation as indicated by the two figure prefix to the engine number was A5. These early engines came with chilled cast iron tappets and the cams weren't shimmed for end float in the camboxes so in services they bashed fore and aft making a loud rattling sound. On some machines you also got a cyclic rattle that corresponds with the spinning of the tappets.
Apart from being hideously noisy mechanically they suffered from tappet failures due mainly to the tappets not being heat treated correctly. It was this initial run of failures that led to the first 'Technical Update'. That involved swapping the cams and tappets for a new set with the new tappets being manufactured in forged steel with a 'Diamond Like Carbon' finish on the foot of the tappet. This is a very hard finish that is extremely resistant to damage by sliding friction. About this time as well the factory started shimming the cams for end float in an attempt to quieten the motor down. Motors thus shimmed were designated A8. Contrary to common belief though the cam profiles remained the same as the A5.
Unfortunately while this generally improved the situation failures continued at an alarming rate, especially in markets where people ride in the cooler months and/or it is very damp.
By mid 2010 the factory must of known they were on a hiding to nothing and by this time had the roller top end under development but it wasn't yet ready for production. They did though start adding the preload shims required under the valve springs and marked the heads that were prepared this way so that when the roller conversions were released it could be identified whether head removal would be required when the conversion was performed.
After the release of the California 1400, the first roller equipped bike, the swap to rollers on production 1200's began and the next 'Technical Update', the assorted 'Upgrade Kits' were released. These come in four forms, A, B, C & D but most of the differences in the kits are small detail differences. The major component of the kits, the new camboxes, are identical for all of the kits. These arrive fully assembled, (Don't be tempted to take them apart to see what's in them. They require a couple of special tools for assembly.) apart from the rockers which have to be swapped from the old camboxes to the new.
The detail differences concern the shimming or lack thereof of the inlet valve springs and the type of sealing mechanism used on the plug tube of the rocker cover as one of the other modifications towards the end of flat tappet motor production was replacement of the 'Long' plug tube between head and rocker cover with a shorter one between the head and the camboxes. The top of the tunnel in the camboxes casting was then sealed with a circular gasket of similar type and design to the main rocker cover gaskets. This was a measure introduced to combat leaks from the original o-ring seals used with the 'Long' plug tubes.
So the kits are.
D Kit is specific to the 1200 Sport 8V. It requires the heads to be removed for valve spring shimming but uses the later 'Floating' head covers with the circular plug tube gasket.
B kit does NOT require head removal for shimming as shims were added at the factory but is suitable for engines with the older 'Non Floating' rocker covers with the plug tube sealed with o-rings.
C kit is the full enchilada! It requires head removal for shimming and uses the early 'Non Floating' rocker covers so it includes shims, a full set of head gaskets, inlet port and exhaust gaskets a plastic dinosaur and a cherry on the top!
A kit does NOT require head removal as the shims are already there and uses the 'Floating' rocker covers. This is for the final series of flat tappet bikes made from 2011-2012.
It may well be that if you have an early, pre mid 2010, bike that it will already of had one 'Recall', only it wasn't, it was the 'Technical Update' swap from the early flat tappets to the later ones with the DLC coating. By far the best way to find out what you have on your engine is to simply pop off a rocker cover and have a look. The two systems are VERY different in appearance.
Finally. Don't panic. Keep receipts for all work performed and keep a keyed ear on the engine. Check your valves regularly and if they suddenly start to open their gaps appreciably don't just ignore it and hope the issue will cure itself. It won't! You will also find performance will be adversely affected in the ways I've described before. It is possible to detect failure in the early stages and I find it mind boggling that some people actually manage to ride their 8V's to death.
Pete
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Ride it.
Check the clearances often looking for abnormal gap change. It is so easy to do that a lawyer could do it.
And pulling the cam box is not that bad of a job either.
Ride
Eat
Sleep
Change oil
Check valves
Repeat the first three often.
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Pete, thanks very much for the great summary!
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Ride it.
Check the clearances often looking for abnormal gap change. It is so easy to do that a lawyer could do it.
And pulling the cam box is not that bad of a job either.
Ride
Eat
Sleep
Change oil
Check valves
Repeat the first three often.
Noted. :boxing: :wink:
Whoa! Hang on, no, let's do a bit of ancient history.
****
Finally. Don't panic. Keep receipts for all work performed and keep a keyed ear on the engine. Check your valves regularly and if they suddenly start to open their gaps appreciably don't just ignore it and hope the issue will cure itself. It won't! You will also find performance will be adversely affected in the ways I've described before. It is possible to detect failure in the early stages and I find it mind boggling that some people actually manage to ride their 8V's to death.
Pete
Thanks (as always), Pete.
Bill
:bow:
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Pete, thanks for the A, B, C, D narrative. Hoping beyond hope, even after reading that my engine number was not quite high enough, I popped the left valve cover on Engine # A8 013411 praying for rollers. Not to be.
The good news: has to be the easiest and most accessible valve cover on any of today's bikes, as well as the three easy to reach bolts that hold the fuel tank wing.
Not so good news: See above. I'm a flat tappet kind of guy. My pics didn't turn out good enough to worry about posting them, but the tappet stems did appear to come thru what looks like a washer with a thin tube sticking out of it. Correction - after looking at the Parts Manual, I found I was looking at the top of the flat tappet and the very short pushrod that actuates the rocker arm.
Maybe ok news: Per Pete's narrative, my 2012 GRiSO should use the D kit, which doesn't require head removal. I suppose this means the headers and throttle bodies can stay in place, and only the cam box, camshaft, and flat tappets would have to be removed. Not certain about how one goes about keeping things timed ...... maybe tying the timing chain to the cam sprocket(?) This has probably already been described in a previous post. Any thoughts about average time for a good Guzzi shop to perform this operation using a D kit?
Question: what do you guys think about me calling Blackstone Labs and asking them if they can detect DLC when they perform a used oil analysis? This might give me and other owners a heads-up as to whether the DLC has begun to delaminate from the tappets.
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Keeping the engine timed when installing a B or D kit is easy. Set piston up at TDC compression, relieve the tension on the cam chain and slide the sprocket off the cam and tie it to the breather plate orifice in the head like so.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3537/3430032569_7eae8dea67.jpg)
Look, I'm rollerising Mark's bike on Tuesday. He's good with a camera. Perhaps he could be persuaded to take some pics while I'm doing the swap and I can do a photo essay.
If anyone is interested? If it's just going to precipitate a load of hard-done-by bleating I won't bother.
Pete
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That was a nice summary of events that was very helpful to me in understanding this issue. I have a '09 Stelvio with only 12,750 kms on it, of which I've only put about 1,750 in the short time I've owned it. The cement mixer noise has always alarmed me but knowing that it's normal for that engine has allayed the fear that anything is wrong, based only on the noise. I set the valves right after buying the bike and have checked them twice since and they are holding their settings. One thing that does concern me is the tappets do not stick up a uniform length above the surface of the head casting. One of them is almost flush with the surface; I can just catch it with my fingernail. Does this necessarily mean abnormal wear somewhere down below? Thanks in advance.
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Oh, and Paul has contacted me and pointed out I got the kit designations mixed up.
The A and D kits are arse-about. D kit for Sport. A kit for late model others.
I have now edited the earlier post to correct this mistake.
Pete
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Look, I'm rollerising Mark's bike on Tuesday. He's good with a camera. Perhaps he could be persuaded to take some pics while I'm doing the swap and I can do a photo essay.
If anyone is interested? If it's just going to precipitate a load of hard-done-by bleating I won't bother.
If it is a C kit, I would be interested in how you keep the cam sprocket/chain in time.
And yes, as always, it will bring about panic the world over. :violent1:
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Keeping the engine timed when installing a B or D kit is easy. Set piston up at TDC compression, relieve the tension on the cam chain and slide the sprocket off the cam and tie it to the breather plate orifice in the head like so.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3537/3430032569_7eae8dea67.jpg)
Look, I'm rollerising Mark's bike on Tuesday. He's good with a camera. Perhaps he could be persuaded to take some pics while I'm doing the swap and I can do a photo essay.
If anyone is interested? If it's just going to precipitate a load of hard-done-by bleating I won't bother.
Pete
Indeed please bother. I will be dong an NTX 2012 (B Kit). Issue is a done deal. I would be very grateful for a pic guide to aid in getting things done.
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Wayne, the timing is super-easy, even if you have to remove the heads.
When the piston is at TDC compression the locating pin for the cam sprocket is at six o'clock, (Working on the principle that the 12-6 axis of your clock is parallel to the bore.) The sprockets have two timing holes marked 'L' and 'R'. Once the pressure is off the tensioner blade you can wriggle the sprocket out of the chain, drop the chain down the tunnel and then pull the camboxes and head.
Once the head is off it is easy to accurately assure the piston is at TDC visually. When you come to re-timing the cam you simply wriggle the sprocket back into the chain and then ratchet it around the teeth until the timing hole aligns with the locating pin, (Which you have ensured is in the six o'clock position.) and you slip the sprocket back onto the cam.
You know the piston is at TDC and if you are out by a tooth it will be blindingly obvious as there aren't that many teeth on the sprocket so if it isn't timed right the peg will be off from that 'Six o'clock' position by a considerable number of degrees, (Sorry, off the top of my head I can't remember the tooth count of the secondary timing sprockets.).
Obviously once you have it back together and the tensioner so loaded up again you run the crank round 720 degrees and re-check it to ensure its right and nothing goes 'Biff' but all in all it is no more difficult or complicated than timing the old pushrod motor. It's just that you do each cylinder separately.
Pete
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That was a nice summary of events that was very helpful to me in understanding this issue. I have a '09 Stelvio with only 12,750 kms on it, of which I've only put about 1,750 in the short time I've owned it. The cement mixer noise has always alarmed me but knowing that it's normal for that engine has allayed the fear that anything is wrong, based only on the noise. I set the valves right after buying the bike and have checked them twice since and they are holding their settings. One thing that does concern me is the tappets do not stick up a uniform length above the surface of the head casting. One of them is almost flush with the surface; I can just catch it with my fingernail. Does this necessarily mean abnormal wear somewhere down below? Thanks in advance.
Remember it's a rough, not finished top to the casting. Absolute accuracy cannot be assured and therefore judging wear has to be a holistic decision where you assess based on a number of factors.
Noise, but this can be a furphy if your engine is an A5! I've never heard another as bad as mine but they can be horribly noisy!
Performance, especially how the engine behaves during warm up.
Smell. As the tappets wear they will produce a lot more heat, you can usually smell the cooked oil when you lift a rocker cover. Always go for the 'Sniff Test'! :grin:
Most significantly though it will be the valve clearances. A happy flat tappet 8V will barely change its clearances in normal service, maybe a thou, at most two, between adjustments. I flog my bike mercilessly and heap neglect upon it and when I remember to check the valves, when it was healthy, I'd rarely have to loosen a locknut! As soon as the DLC starts to go though wear is extremely rapid. After all if you are spinning the crank at even 3,000rpm the tappets are being thwacked 1,500 times a minute. The DLC slurry is like grinding paste! The substrate won't last long, nor the face of the cam! As Wayne found, he re-set his clearances after he found them wide and within 100 miles they were all over the place like a mad woman's breakfast! Once they start to open up its all over, red rover! Time to rollerise.
Pete
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For those interested in ancient history here are a few pics from way back when. These are the original chilled cast iron tappets that came out of my engine. At this time, (2009) engines were failing in a couple of thousand miles in the UK. My replacement kit was mislaid and it didn't get fitted until I'd done about 22,000 km and my tappets were just fine!
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3331/3481436195_39c253fc12.jpg)
And here are the gen 1 tappet, (On the right.) next to the gen 2 type. The difference in design and construction is obvious.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4132/5199667159_c3657367b2.jpg)
Pete
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OK, this clarifies things for me! I think, now, that my engine is still ok. Other than the noise and the uneven tappet heights, I don't seem to have any other symptoms. Yet. I may still elect to rollerise it on my own dime. Anyone know what that runs, parts and labour in the US?
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OK, this clarifies things for me! I think, now, that my engine is still ok. Other than the noise and the uneven tappet heights, I don't seem to have any other symptoms. Yet. I may still elect to rollerise it on my own dime. Anyone know what that runs, parts and labour in the US?
Kit A-$999.39 Part # 1A002060
Kit B-$1050.78 Part # 1A002063
Kit C-$1456.00 Part # 1A002082
As I have previously explained though you can make a 'C' kit appreciably cheaper by buying a 'B' kit and the shims, valve stem oil seals, inlet and exhaust gaskets and measuring the head gaskets that come off and simply buying a pair of similar thickness. The 'C' kit contains all three thicknesses of head gasket as well as those extra parts, hence its higher price. If you're doing it on your own dime why buy two pairs of gaskets you don't need? They aren't cheap!
Oh, those prices are from the AF-1 website but I'd imagine that MPH, MI or any of the other reputable suppliers and 'Good' shops will have very similar prices.
Pete
PS. Time depends on what needs to be done.
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Once the pressure is off the tensioner blade you can wriggle the sprocket out of the chain, drop the chain down the tunnel and then pull the camboxes and head.
I figured dropping the chain in the tunnel meant you have to turn the bike upside down and shake it to get it back out. :undecided:
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:laugh: Nah. You can even leave the sprocket in the chain when you hoick the head off if you want.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8602/16234109466_19812a3c0c.jpg)
Pete
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Is 'Diamond Like Carbon' the official name of the coating on the flat tappets, or is there a commercial name for the product or process of applying the hardening material? I'd like to have an oil testing lab take a look at mine again, and would like to tell them specifically what to look for. They weren't familiar with the DLC nomenclature .... suggested it might be some kind of nitride material. Perhaps if someone has an old flat tappet with some of the hardening material remaining, it could be used as a donor.
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I've got shitloads of them Bob but I'm sure you can find someone closer to you with a munted one to donate. AFAIK DLC is what it is called.
Pete
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond-like_carbon
Terry
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Thanks for the DLC clarification. I'll include this info with my next sample to the lab.
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I would think that a small oil sample could easily come back negative for dlc even if some had gone missing from the tappets. It could be deposited anywhere within the oil circuit and not necessarily be in solution in the sample. I think the only way to catch a failure in the early stages is due diligence as Pete has described. Pay close attention to valve gaps and breathing behavior such as tb balance and idle behavior. Certainly an oil analysis can't hurt , but it may only show dlc after it is too late. Dave
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I would think that a small oil sample could easily come back negative for dlc even if some had gone missing from the tappets. It could be deposited anywhere within the oil circuit and not necessarily be in solution in the sample. I think the only way to catch a failure in the early stages is due diligence as Pete has described. Pay close attention to valve gaps and breathing behavior such as tb balance and idle behavior. Certainly an oil analysis can't hurt , but it may only show dlc after it is too late. Dave
Dave, you're probably right. But I'm an old anal-retentive dude who won't be satisfied until I see an analysis. Only problem is, I put waaay too many miles on my 1200 Sport, and too few on the Griso to really put the oil through its paces.
However, before next oil change, I will send a sample to the lab, along with the documentation provided about DLC, and report here on the results.
I should do a valve clearance check, since it's been nearly 4000 miles since the last one.
Bob
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Well today's the day, I'm gonna roll my own. :grin: Finally a chance for some wrench time to get my griso rollerised, results will be forthcoming. Dave
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Well today's the day, I'm gonna roll my own. :grin: Finally a chance for some wrench time to get my griso rollerised, results will be forthcoming. Dave
Note, when I pulled the cam box to inspect mine, I read a blurb on the manual AFTER I pulled the timing sprocket. It warned you that the timing pin could come out of the cam and fall. Everything is fairly straight forward. Don't forget to loosen the two small head bolts BEFORE you loosen the four main bolts.
I'll need to find a valve spring compressor for mine.
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Update , left side off and early failure obvious on intake tappet only. About a 2mm dia. circle of dlc missing dead center on the tappet face. Cam lobes look ok, slightly heat rashed on the nose . Man am I glad I dug into this now. More to come
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Maybe this should be in a separate thread, but it's a follow on activity to the conversion so I'll mention it here.
Spent today and the best part of a tank of fuel re-mapping the Stelvio after the roller conversion. She's running very nicely again, although the net difference in the map vs. my flat tappet version isn't that big. Looking at the revised numbers, the main thing that I changed was taking OUT some fuel from TP24 upwards. That's the opposite of what I expected, but the first run with the logger on clearly showed that it was running slightly richer (3 to 4%) with the rollers than with the flat tappets at higher throttle positions. I suppose that means the roller profile doesn't quite allow the same airflow? It's only a small difference, but I think it's just about noticeable under hard acceleration. I may be imagining it though, because it still ran up to a true (GPS) 197kmh on a relatively short stretch.
Anyway, the map is in and pretty much spot on with where I wanted the fueling.
John
PS: I'm happy to share the map if anyone needs it.
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John, that's pretty much what I expected. Pete said it was like hitting a 'brick wall', even though I suspect a wee bit of hyperbole involved in that description, it would be the result of a rich condition.
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Really, no hyperbole Mark, you can take mine out when you're down here and see for yourself.
Strangely enough too rich is what I thought it felt like as it doesn't break down and pop and fart, it just goes dead flat and gives you nothing. Only at wider throttle openings and above about 6,000. At lower RPM it actually feels a bit lean. Logging it will tell us.
Pete
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Do you have the lambda off on yours Pete?
But then I don't think that matters at open throttle above 6000.
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Yup, it's Mark's Mistral Hi-pipe w/dbk map. It was absolutely spot-on with flat tappets and has fallen in a heap with the conversion to rollers. It's perfectly addressable, it's just as far as I'm concerned that is Mark's area of expertise not mine so I'm more than happy to defer to his skills and experience.
Pete
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Well, I am officially rollerized, Not a bad job thanks to Pete's well done instructions. Was shocked to see early signs of dlc failure on all 4 tappets. At only 6000 miles I didn't expect to find any , but just like Wayne, it was worse on one intake tappet. I am glad I decided to bite the bullet and do the swap. I can only wonder if a dealer would have considered this a failure and supplied the kit at this early stage and low mileage. I also found slight leakage on the valves with a dish soap and compressed air test so I removed all the valves and re lapped them, no more bubbles. Tomorrow I will check tb balance and reset tps and self learners and give it a go. I already fired it up and it is definitely way quieter. I set the valve gaps to .o15 and .o20mm I wasn't sure what they should be with the roller set up. If anyone has the factory 03 map they could share I would like to try it at least temporarily. Will post some pics soon. Dave
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Well, I am officially rollerized, Not a bad job thanks to Pete's well done instructions. Was shocked to see early signs of dlc failure on all 4 tappets. At only 6000 miles I didn't expect to find any , but just like Wayne, it was worse on one intake tappet. I am glad I decided to bite the bullet and do the swap. I can only wonder if a dealer would have considered this a failure and supplied the kit at this early stage and low mileage. I also found slight leakage on the valves with a dish soap and compressed air test so I removed all the valves and re lapped them, no more bubbles. Tomorrow I will check tb balance and reset tps and self learners and give it a go. I already fired it up and it is definitely way quieter. I set the valve gaps to .o15 and .o20mm I wasn't sure what they should be with the roller set up. If anyone has the factory 03 map they could share I would like to try it at least temporarily. Will post some pics soon. Dave
Congrats on getting it done! I may do the same. For some reason, though the Griso isn't ridden nearly as much at the 1200 Sport, she is a beautiful machine ..... and part of the reason for the low mileage is that 'back of the mind' thing about the tappets (and the need to do something to make the suspension more compliant.)
Question .... are you a professional 'wrench', or do you consider yourself more of a shade tree mechanic who simply followed Pete's instructions? How many hours were involved in 'rollerization?' And were there any obvious 'gotchas?'
I'm looking for moral support!
Bob
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Valves should be, depending what you read, either 0.15 and 0.2 mm or 0.1 and 0.15mm. I'm assuming that was a typo.
Generally the roller set up is much quieter than the flats, especially on A5 motors. Mine is still very noisy but I didn't re-size the rods after the big ends went west. I may yet pull the motor and go through it top to bottom just to see what's what at 100K km. it could probably benefit from new cam chains and rings anyway.
One thing I'm tempted to do is swap out the plastic oil pump gear for the steel one used on some engines. I've always hated plastic and alloy gears.
Pete
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Bob . i am definitely no pro, but I have done my own wrenching on my small engines and equipment since I can remember. Also grew up with dirt bikes and then street bikes so I have done a fair share of those as well. The whole roller swap took me nine hours start to finish but I spent a couple of those hours re lapping the valves both intake and exhaust. I had to pull the heads anyway to install the inlet shims. Actually I am still not finished as I still have to balance the tb's and possibly load a different map. The only thing I did not have was a proper valve spring compressor but I made due with a modified deep socket and a large C clamp. I will post a picture soon. As Pete said the keepers are tiny so patience is required, but his tutorial is spot on and easy to follow. Also I only removed the intake manifolds and rubber couplings and left the tb's in place on the air box, this allowed easy accesses to the cam sprocket covers and especially the little screw you have to remove for pinning back the left side chain tension blade. If I can help feel free to ask. But I only know about the 8v what I have learned here on WG, Thanks to all,,dave
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If anyone has the factory 03 map they could share I would like to try it at least temporarily.
I can send it to you if you like. Lambda on or off?
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Here is a couple of pics. Interesting the one tappet that looks scratched as if it weren't spinning. My homemade valve tool,did the job. All in all I'd call myself lucky. Thanks Mark, I think I'd like to keep the original closed loop and give it a try, I'll pm you an e mail,many thanks. dave.
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f10/whaler123/IMG_0306_zpsst2sdccy.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f10/whaler123/IMG_0306_zpsst2sdccy.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f10/whaler123/IMG_0299_zpsc2kdojbd.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f10/whaler123/IMG_0314_zpsihegkzfm.jpg)
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Sent (already had your email address).
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Aussies rule :bow: Best of luck Tuesday!
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the main thing that I changed was taking OUT some fuel from TP24 upwards. That's the opposite of what I expected, but the first run with the logger on clearly showed that it was running slightly richer (3 to 4%) with the rollers than with the flat tappets at higher throttle positions. I suppose that means the roller profile doesn't quite allow the same airflow?
Assuming equivalent torque, this suggests the roller cams provide better VE than the flat cams. Interesting.
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It'll be interesting to see what state Mark's tappets are in.
Pete
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Pete do you think the extent of wear I found warrants further fussing? No roughness to the surfaces at all, but obviously some dlc missing. 6000 miles, who'd have thunk.
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Next oil change drop the sump and give it a good clean out but with such minimal wear at such a low mileage I think it would probably be uber-paranoid to do the full back-flush etc.
Others opinions may vary.
Pete
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Really, no hyperbole Mark, you can take mine out when you're down here and see for yourself.
Strangely enough too rich is what I thought it felt like as it doesn't break down and pop and fart, it just goes dead flat and gives you nothing. Only at wider throttle openings and above about 6,000. At lower RPM it actually feels a bit lean. Logging it will tell us.
Pete
Pete, that's what I found too. In addition to taking fuel out above TP24, I put some more fuel in from TP8 to 19 at the corresponding RPMS.
John
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Well perhaps I'm not a complete idiot after all......? :D
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Assuming equivalent torque, this suggests the roller cams provide better VE than the flat cams. Interesting.
Hi Mark. I'm not so sure about the equivalent torque though. I'd love to see torque/power curve comparison of roller vs. flat tappet models on the original map. I have the feeling the roller version might have slightly less power at the top end. I understood the profile should simulate exactly the Flat Tappet lift and duration, but maybe there is a slight difference. Or maybe it's the added weight of the valve-train components?
I now have my map set up with exactly the same air/fuel ratios that I had with the flat tappets. It runs very well and very smooth, but if anything it has just slightly less "bite" at the top. It's not obvious, and I'm talking here about speeds in excess of 170kmh and approaching 200kmh, but it does feels slightly tamer at those speeds.
So maybe the VE is less efficient at higher rpms and that's why it requires slightly less fuel? Just speculating. As I say, it would be great to see some curve comparisons.
John
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Hi Mark. I'm not so sure about the equivalent torque though. I'd love to see torque/power curve comparison of roller vs. flat tappet models on the original map. I have the feeling the roller version might have slightly less power at the top end. I understood the profile should simulate exactly the Flat Tappet lift and duration, but maybe there is a slight difference. Or maybe it's the added weight of the valve-train components?
I now have my map set up with exactly the same air/fuel ratios that I had with the flat tappets. It runs very well and very smooth, but if anything it has just slightly less "bite" at the top. It's not obvious, and I'm talking here about speeds in excess of 170kmh and approaching 200kmh, but it does feels slightly tamer at those speeds.
So maybe the VE is less efficient at higher rpms and that's why it requires slightly less fuel? Just speculating. As I say, it would be great to see some curve comparisons.
John
That makes perfect sense but I'd have to say that if there is a noticeable 'Flattening' of top end delivery something is still wrong. Even if it produces less outright performance there shouldn't be some sort of arbitrary 'Transition Point' that is detectable by feel.
There again it could be that the roller system is actually limited as you say by its extra mass and the useable profile of the cams. I really don't know.
Pete
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That makes perfect sense but I'd have to say that if there is a noticeable 'Flattening' of top end delivery something is still wrong. Even if it produces less outright performance there shouldn't be some sort of arbitrary 'Transition Point' that is detectable by feel.
There again it could be that the roller system is actually limited as you say by its extra mass and the useable profile of the cams. I really don't know.
Pete
I wouldn't say there is a certain transition point or that it's very noticeable, it's just got very slightly less bite at the more extreme rpm/throttle positions. I think I have the fuelling right, but still, maybe something is possible with fuel phasing? I don't know yet. I think though that the rollers might have very slightly more power in the mid range and slightly less at the top. Just my feeling.
It'll be interesting to see what all the others say, post conversion! :grin:
John
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I wouldn't say there is a certain transition point or that it's very noticeable, it's just got very slightly less bite at the more extreme rpm/throttle positions. I think I have the fuelling right, but still, maybe something is possible with fuel phasing? I don't know yet. I think though that the rollers might have very slightly more power in the mid range and slightly less at the top. Just my feeling.
It'll be interesting to see what all the others say, post conversion! :grin:
John
Amen to that. The only way we get to work this stuff is by doing it ourselves. Sooking on about how awful it is achieves nothing.
Pete
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I was contemplating an accelerometer run with my VR3, but it's really only able to show significant changes in the torque curve. I suspect we're only looking at a few foot pounds, so a dyno would be required.
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Kit A-$999.39 Part # 1A002060
Kit B-$1050.78 Part # 1A002063
Kit C-$1456.00 Part # 1A002082
As I have previously explained though you can make a 'C' kit appreciably cheaper by buying a 'B' kit and the shims, valve stem oil seals, inlet and exhaust gaskets and measuring the head gaskets that come off and simply buying a pair of similar thickness. The 'C' kit contains all three thicknesses of head gasket as well as those extra parts, hence its higher price. If you're doing it on your own dime why buy two pairs of gaskets you don't need? They aren't cheap!
Oh, those prices are from the AF-1 website but I'd imagine that MPH, MI or any of the other reputable suppliers and 'Good' shops will have very similar prices.
Pete
PS. Time depends on what needs to be done.
I figure I may as well be proactive and get this done since the engine is over 50,000 and running well. Give me something to do this winter.
In searching for a good place to purchase, I found that Teo Lamers has them for a very reasonable price. Substantial savings for the B kit. Fortunately, the one I need.
AF1 is always top dollar.
Right now the exchange rate is pretty good for us folk in the US:
Kit A-$999.39 Part # 1A002060 - 789.48 + 35 shipping = $914usd
http://www.tlm.nl/webshop/en/catalogsearch/result/?cat=0&q=1A002060 (http://www.tlm.nl/webshop/en/catalogsearch/result/?cat=0&q=1A002060)
Kit B-$1050.78 Part # 1A002063 - 598.55 + 35 shipping = $723usd
http://www.tlm.nl/webshop/en/camshaft-kit-b-8v-09-10-stelvi-1a002063-moto-guzzi (http://www.tlm.nl/webshop/en/camshaft-kit-b-8v-09-10-stelvi-1a002063-moto-guzzi)
Kit C-$1456.00 Part # 1A002082 - 1,155.83 + 35 shipping = $1328usd
http://www.tlm.nl/webshop/en/catalogsearch/result/?cat=0&q=1A002082 (http://www.tlm.nl/webshop/en/catalogsearch/result/?cat=0&q=1A002082)
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In searching for a good place to purchase, I found that Teo Lamers has them for a very reasonable price. Substantial savings for the B kit. Fortunately, the one I need.
I live 12 miles from the US Moto Guzzi warehouse.
The ones from Teo Lamers on the other side of the planet would get to me faster then the ones in stock in the US I suspect.
:sad:
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I live 12 miles from the US Moto Guzzi warehouse.
The ones from Teo Lamers on the other side of the planet would get to me faster then the ones in stock in the US I suspect.
:sad:
They had the B kit in stock so it should be here in a week. Usually, when they show "out of stock" it takes them about 1-2 weeks to to fill an order. They are generally on the ball when it come to shipping parts.
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My Griso required the thinnest of the three head gasket choices, marked with a white dash, I have the other two sets as they came with the c kit I purchased, If anyone can use them let me know, I think Pete said the middle one will work for most. Dave
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Where are the marks on the gaskets, and can you find it on the used old ones?
My kit had the middle one only, nothing to choose.
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I'm not sure exactly when they started colour coding the gaskets Paul, certainly not in the first couple of years of production. The way it seems to be done is when the new gaskets are stacked upright in boxes or racks someone just runs a paintbrush down the edge of them on the side that faces *Out* from the bike.
From memory it's white for the thin ones, yellow for the intermediates and the thick ones are left unmarked.
Pete
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Paul, they are marked with a dash on the forward most point on the top surface,white being the thinnest,yellow the middle and the thickest has no marking.
The packaging was numbered as follows
thin dis. # 874621
Middle dis. #874622
thickest dis. # 976311
Was yours a c kit?
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f10/whaler123/IMG_0323_zps68vqj3wi.jpg)
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While it maybe less than brilliant, I see no reason why one couldn't reuse one of these types of gaskets. I would shellac it and slam it right back in next time.
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well no paint marks on my old ones. And the C kit came with one set, not three sets, someone made me the choice easy. Did they in the beginning suppose that each time one takes of a head, you are going to measure with the special tools?
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I don't think every time, only if you are replacing barrels and pistons.
In reality the very accurate squish setting is principally for emissions reasons, oxides of nitrogen mainly.
Pete
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So I take my 2012 Norge in for it's 20,000km service. I make a note with the service manage to have the mechanic check to see if the motor has flat or roller tappets. The mechanic has to change the plugs and adjust the valves so it's not a big reach from there!
According to Piaggio, and based on the engine serial number, my bike has roller tappets, but I want to be sure . . .
When I get the bike back, there is no note on the work order as to the kind of tappets the motor has and the mechanic who worked on my bike is off for the day. The service manager has no idea what kind of tappets I have either!
I ride the bike home and it is running very nicely!
The next day I drop back to talk to the mechanic who worked on my bike. He is the head mechanic at the dealership. When I ask him whether I have roller tappets or flat tappets he looks at me blankly and says "What?"
So I take a different tack and ask him what valve clearances he used in tuning the bike because the clearances are different for flat and roller engines. He says I can't remember!!!! He must have used the correct setting because the motor is purring!!!
Should I be looking for a new dealer for service? It's a rhetorical rant not a question.
If this dolt had used the valve clearances for a roller tappet motor on motor with flat tappets, I presume the engine would not be running very well at all . . . am I correct in assuming this?
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The difference in clearance will make little difference to the way the engine runs if you are running a closed loop map. Open loop? Different matter. If the clearances are set at the wider settings it will make the top end fractionally noisier.
Pete
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The difference in clearance will make little difference to the way the engine runs if you are running a closed loop map. Open loop? Different matter. If the clearances are set at the wider settings it will make the top end fractionally noisier.
Pete
I am running the most recent map from MG but I don't know if is open or closed.
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I believe all the factory maps are installed closed loop for emission reasons.
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Yup, that's why you have a couple of O2 sensors in the 'zorsts.
Pete
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Look, I'm rollerising Mark's bike on Tuesday. .
Pete, Mark, how did it go? :popcorn:
John
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Went good, but clear evidence of wear. I'll post pics tomorrow.
Suggestion? If you have a flat tappet bike? Get your shop to look at it. Pulling a camboxes costs an hour. Trashing your engine will cost a lot more.
Pete
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Went good, but clear evidence of wear. I'll post pics tomorrow.
Suggestion? If you have a flat tappet bike? Get your shop to look at it. Pulling a camboxes costs an hour. Trashing your engine will cost a lot more.
Pete
Very interested to hear the first ride reports with rollers and fuelling feedback! :-)
John
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Been busy this evening working on the mapping and after a couple more iterations, the "bite" is now back. Can't feel any performance drop vs the way my flat tappets performed anymore. All's good!
My theory is that the cylinder fueling balance is really important, and I tried to get that as close as possible. Here's a little view of running up through the gears. The Red line is RPM, the Green line is Throttle Position (4.15 is maximum throttle), and what looks almost like one thicker line is actually two separate lines showing air fuel ratio for left and right. They're pretty much exactly where I want them at different throttle loads. On the standard map you'll find some quite significant deviations between the two.
Anyhow, just wanted to say she's running really strong again! :-)
John
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t505/Xlratr/Mobile%20Uploads/8692FFCD-2838-4096-99E1-C4D50FAF498D.jpg)
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I have been experimenting with several maps since rollerizing my Griso. So far I have found that beetle's map ran well but lacked the kick in the pants in the higher rev's. I then tried the factory 03 and it had tremendous power throughout but totally lacked smoothness at 2 to 3500 rpm and just felt unrefined, but definitely radical under accell. I now have the factory 68 map in and it fuels very well, smooth and linear delivery but lacks the radical pull in the higher rev's that the 03 offers. I guess it's a trade off, power or smoothness in the common cruise range, for now I'll stay with the latter but it sure would be nice to have the best of both. I re-checked with my dealer and they use the 03 map on all the ones they do. I am sure the guru's will get to the bottom of this. :thumb:
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Hi All ... thanks for the postings, good reading. Am posting from NSW Oz.
My Norge is now at 33,000 kms. She runs really well on Mark's earlier map (have not installed the latest yet), starting and idle problem free.
I now notice a audible 'knocking' from the top end (screwdriver as sounding rod against cam covers) that has been slowly increasing in volume beginning from about 25000 kms.
This is an earlier 2012 AA model and I fairly certain (not positive) it has the flat tappets.
I did a valve clearance check a week ago and the exhausts had not moved but inlets were a wee bit tighter than specified L&R so adjusted them back to specs. Last check was at 25000 kms.
So in short the top end has progressively become noisier and I am becoming concerned, but the bike is fun to ride and going well.
Took the bike to a motorcycle mechanic who admitted was not conversant with Euro bikes but had a listen anyway and thought the top end noise was not 'exceptional'.
Do I disassemble the top end to examine because of the clatter and examine for tappet damage?
If I do this and find evidence of damage what are my chances of MG providing Roller replacements given the time of 4 years from new?
Bike has service history records.
Do I continue riding the beast or forget that and strip the top end to check?
Not stupid question as I realise one cannot be sure unless visually examined BUT am seriously short of time and if I am to drop the top end I am considering the replacement kit anyway,
and that is way more expensive than can be taken lightly.
Wish I was close to a MG expert but alas .. so am really glad for the forum.
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Where are you in NSW? I've just bought a wrecked Griso in Queensland and will be going to pick it up soon. If you're anywhere on the way I could drop in and check it out for you.
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Where are you in NSW? I've just bought a wrecked Griso in Queensland and will be going to pick it up soon. If you're anywhere on the way I could drop in and check it out for you.
Hi Pete ... have emailed you on that ... "I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse" happily accepted!
If it works out you have a night's accommodation or at the very least a great home cooked meal.
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Post roller logging run. It was running a bit rich. :rolleyes:
(http://www.griso.org/postroller_fixed.jpg)
Right. Ignore this log. Found a error in the conversion during logging. Proper data log in new post.
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Hyuck, hyuck!
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Post roller logging run. It was running a bit rich. :rolleyes:
(http://www.griso.org/postroller.jpg)
Wow! Assuming it was running well before the conversion, the rollers have made a huge difference! Some of those numbers even look border line combustible!
john
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Big difference, I was really chuffed I'd picked it right! :grin:
Pete
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8500 rpm's really? Would cutting back on co trim help with the rich fueling ?
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Don't want to butt in, however, does the V7C small blocks have this potential problem too? I have a 2012 model, should I be looking out for 'rapid' valve clearance changes?
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Don't want to butt in, however, does the V7C small blocks have this potential problem too? I have a 2012 model, should I be looking out for 'rapid' valve clearance changes?
That would be no.
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Well, I am officially rollerized, Not a bad job thanks to Pete's well done instructions.
Can someone point to where Pete's instructions are for the kit install? My 2011 Stelvio just turned 4,000 miles, no symptoms yet but would like to have the tutorial for the swap in my back pocket. Thanks Pete!
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Here ya go.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78160.0
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8500 rpm's really?
Yes. How do you think maps get built?
Would cutting back on co trim help with the rich fueling ?
Somewhat, but it in this particular case I think we are looking at a delta-fuel issue. The roller cams are sufficiently different (plus the narrower valve clearance) to cause a change of a magnitude I wasn't expecting. Don't forget, every pipe will be different. It's important to remember that the open-loop maps are customized to a specific tune of the pipe, valve clearance and intake. I reckon the 03 map wouldn't be tickety-boo either if we had an AFR map for it. My bike ran great like that. Why wouldn't it? Stupid-rich everywhere makes an 8V run buttery-smooth. Also makes them run cooler. It's not good for them.
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Stupid-rich everywhere makes an 8V run buttery-smooth. Also makes them run cooler. It's not good for them.
So many don't realize this. Doesn't matter what kind of engine. Rich covers a lot of carburation sins. Washing down the cylinder walls makes you pay for that.
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Just a bit.........
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8689/16793093769_8e0f53b87c_z.jpg)
:evil:
Pete
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After I found a conversion error in my logging setup, I did another run today. Note the difference! This is with the same map I ran post roller conversion. Pete, I'm sorry to say your brickwall doesn't exist. No idea what you experienced, but I experienced no such phenomena, and the (proper) log shows no funnies. It needs a bee's dick more fuel in certain areas, but you could run this map without issue.
(http://www.griso.org/rollerlog.jpg)
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Pete you didn't measure cam timing before/after, to solve all mystery?
Beetle, you see no other result as before as I understand?
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After I found a conversion error in my logging setup, I did another run today. Note the difference! This is with the same map I ran post roller conversion. Pete, I'm sorry to say your brickwall doesn't exist. No idea what you experienced, but I experienced no such phenomena, and the (proper) log shows no funnies. It needs a bee's dick more fuel in certain areas, but you could run this map without issue.
That looks much more plausible. I think petrol/air won't even ignite at some of the Lambda numbers in the earlier log you showed.
As Paul also asked, did you feel absolutely no difference pre/post conversion?
With my Stelvio there was, just a bit, and it needed some adjustments.
This is basically what I ended up with, Left and Right - although I did make a couple of small adjustments subsequent to this log. (I find it takes a minute to get your head around looking at a map with columns and lines reversed :grin:. And my numbers are in AFR, not Lambda)
(http://i1063.photobucket.com/albums/t505/Xlratr/Mobile%20Uploads/F1F43797-818E-4EE7-AFB6-3E279A776B29.jpg)
John
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Pete you didn't measure cam timing before/after, to solve all mystery?
Beetle, you see no other result as before as I understand?
Paul, we didn't have the time. I will, while I'm organising the engine swap on my bike, do a full graphing of both types of timing system, but this IS something I have to work in around my normal work schedule. I'm not retired yet, unfortunately!
Pete
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As Paul also asked, did you feel absolutely no difference pre/post conversion?
Beetle, you see no other result as before as I understand?
No difference by seat of pants. A bit wiffy at idle, but accelerating through the gears to redline, there was no real obvious performance difference.
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That's interesting. With the Mistral no dbk map, same set up as you, mine is dead after that 6,000 point at any wide throttle opening. If you're coming to Canbera next week bring your riding gear and take mine out. It's got the logging gear on it, we can do a couple of runs.
Pete
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If you're coming to Canbera next week bring your riding gear and take mine out. It's got the logging gear on it, we can do a couple of runs.
Will do. I've been scratching my head about it. I've applied a 1.5-2% increase to the main map above 6000 RPM (indeed, across the bulk of the rev range). Not a major change at all.
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You and Leah want to do breakfast Sunday? We're going to be in Adelong tomorrow night. If you feel like joining us for a feed please do.
Pete
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You and Leah want to do breakfast Sunday? We're going to be in Adelong tomorrow night. If you feel like joining us for a feed please do.
Pete
Sure. Brunch?
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Excellent. See email.
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Thinking about it it could be that there is something else *Wrong* with my engine or engine management system but I very much doubt it. While the Nuovo Hi-Cam doesn't seem to be a one tooth collision motor the symptoms if you are out by a tooth are known to me and very obvious! It was also running very well up until the tappets and subsequently the big ends went tits.
Really I won't know for sure until I can rip into it on the bench after I've swapped out the motive unit from the Qld. Shitter. Having a 'Spare' motor on the bench will help a lot. I can do a really accurate graph of both flat and roller systems whilst I'm rebuilding the old one and if I have a bit of spare change, (Unlikely right now but you never know.) I can take it in to the 'Bloke with a flow bench' who's name I can't remember, and do some flow comparisons between the two.
Pete
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After some tinkering, Mark's universal map is again the cat's meow with the roller tappets. I reset the gaps to 4and 6 instead of 6and8 where I first had them. Also had some crud inside the LH throttle body that may have been reaping havoc on the base tps value as it changed after re assembly. The crud was not oil from the air box, but carbon from previous blow by on the left intake valves. It is definitely the best this bike has ever run as long as I've owned it. The fueling is absolutely beautiful , linear from idle to red line. I couldn't stand the popping on over run with the 03 factory map, or the choppy fueling around 3000 rpm so I switched back to Mark's map and what a pleasant surprise. The 03 map seemed more radical under accell, but I think it was really just less linear and more all at once at 6ooo rpm . I currently have the co at + 3 and it seems to help on the little stumble I get on a dead cold start, it only last a minute or two until it warms up and then it's gone. Is there a correction to the warm up table I can try for this or is this typical? Over all very happy with the outcome post roller conversion, and quieter to the point of not being able to hear valve train noise with my helmet on. In summary I see no need to modify this map for rollers. It still amazes me that the factory maps can be so inferior. Nice work Mark. :thumb:
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The difference in clearance will make little difference to the way the engine runs if you are running a closed loop map. Open loop? Different matter. If the clearances are set at the wider settings it will make the top end fractionally noisier.
Pete
I'm running Mark's map in my '09 Stelvio and I've set the valves at 4 and 6 thou, as my owner's manual specifies. Has that been changed to 6 and 8?
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I'm running Mark's map in my '09 Stelvio and I've set the valves at 4 and 6 thou, as my owner's manual specifies. Has that been changed to 6 and 8?
NO, the flat tappet motor just seemed to run better with the larger gaps. But I am pretty sure the opposite is true with the rollers.
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Wider gaps were a factory suggestion at one point, maybe because they thought the damage was the result of the tappets riding the cam. Mark's flat tappet maps are all built around 6 & 8 and the engine is very sensitive to change so if using one of these maps ensure the gaps are set at 6 & 8!
Pete
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For flat tappet Griso's running one of my maps, 6 & 8 thou. For other bikes, set as per factory specs.
My rollers are set at 4 & 6, so any map update for rollers will require the same valve clearance.
Dave, I should have twigged that you would have needed to reset your clearances to 4 & 6. So far with the one map I've updated (Mistral Hi-Pipe with dBk), I've needed to add more fuel at the top, and pull some out at idle. I've also needed to modify the warm-up table as well. The Termi will be different of course, and it will be next, but I expect to have to add more fuel to it as well.
I've taken a slightly different approach to the roller maps. Previously, my target AFR was 12.8, which usually meant folks in North America had to go a positive CO, and folks without ethanol could stay at zero or even go negative. My new target is 12.5, so you lot can flash-and-go, and the rest will need a CO trim adjustment. After all, the U.S. and Canada run more of my maps than anywhere else.
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Thanks Mark, I have been running 91 octane with 15% corn ethanol and your flat tappet map and it is running fantastic. The plugs do look lean with no real discoloration so I decided to play it safe and go to +3 on the co. Other than the warm up stumble it is perfect. I am just getting started learning tuner pro and curios about the changes necessary to the warm up table, I have a lot to learn but I've got the bug now and I can't sleep . I am surprised at your 12.5 afr target. I always thought 13.6 was "ideal". Brilliant how you chopped the fuel on closed throttle and the result, just seems unreal to be able to punch it and then cut it with no popping,at all, it's a beautiful thing! Would be more than happy to help if I can with a new iteration , though as of now I cannot data log. I am however a great guinea pig. Dave :bike-037: :copcar:
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Wider gaps were a factory suggestion at one point, maybe because they thought the damage was the result of the tappets riding the cam. Mark's flat tappet maps are all built around 6 & 8 and the engine is very sensitive to change so if using one of these maps ensure the gaps are set at 6 & 8!
Pete
Thanks Pete and Mark for all the help and information. I'll be resetting to 6 and 8 thou first thing tomorrow. Engine mapping is way beyond my understanding and I was more than proud of myself just for being able to download and install Mark's map. One thing I didn't alter was the co, the reason being I wasn't sure what I was trying to accomplish. What exactly does the co affect? Is it the mixture at idle or does it affect operation at all rpm?
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It has an effect at all RPM. Each increment or decrease changes the pulse width by 10 microseconds but it does it across the entire map so at idle its effect is much greater than at wide open throttle.
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I am surprised at your 12.5 afr target. I always thought 13.6 was "ideal".
There is method to my madness. The effects of ethanol and an understanding of how the 8V head works and all that.
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For those interested in ancient history here are a few pics from way back when. These are the original chilled cast iron tappets that came out of my engine. At this time, (2009) engines were failing in a couple of thousand miles in the UK. My replacement kit was mislaid and it didn't get fitted until I'd done about 22,000 km and my tappets were just fine!
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3331/3481436195_39c253fc12.jpg)
And here are the gen 1 tappet, (On the right.) next to the gen 2 type. The difference in design and construction is obvious.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4132/5199667159_c3657367b2.jpg)
Pete
yep, fine
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Gents, thanks a lot for the help and advice, really great forum.
I have a 2009 Stelvio, 25k km on the clock (or more as first owner did not bother fixing speedo sensor before sale). I've been reading a lot about cam failures so paid close attention to cam noises every single ride. Nothing unusual - it was fairly quiet after cam clearance adjustment and fairly loud immediately before. During the 2015 season I had to adjust valve clearances every 1000 km or so which I took as a sure sign that something is not perfect. So I have ordered Roller tappets Kit-B (1A002063) and installed it. Just in time.
Here are the pics of the cams and tappets removed form the bike.
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj23/senya-12/Guzzi%20Cams/a9d65a7c-b2bd-488e-99e7-704a2960223e.jpg)
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj23/senya-12/Guzzi%20Cams/c16825a5-e11e-483f-95bd-968688235554.jpg)
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj23/senya-12/Guzzi%20Cams/4f218300-ce84-45ac-a20f-1174361e6d48.jpg)
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(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj23/senya-12/Guzzi%20Cams/4f218300-ce84-45ac-a20f-1174361e6d48.jpg)
That tappet on the right is pretty nasty looking. Did you clean out the sump?
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That tappet on the right is pretty nasty looking. Did you clean out the sump?
They all look quite scary. No, I did not clean the sump. There was not much of metal on the magnet of the oil drain plug. Hopefully most of the metal particles from the tappets were caught by the magnet and oil filter. And now they are on a safe distance from the bike.
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Taking mine in Wednesday to get rollererd. Will be interesting to see what things look like at bit over 13,000 miles.
GliderJohn
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This is the right hand intake tappet I checked yesterday.
2011 Griso, only around 8000 miles. Not much metal missing. But it looks like they are all going to go.
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/worwig/publicshare/20160206_140317.jpg)
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Every single flat tappet model everywhere is kaput. No exceptions. Wayne, get rollers now.
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Every single flat tappet model everywhere is kaput. No exceptions. Wayne, get rollers now.
Wayne's Stelvio has been rolled. That's out of my "new to me" Griso and yep I going to get it sorted pronto.
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/Dilliw/0207161511a_zpsbsqb8dh7.jpg)
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:thumb:
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I am doing another Stelvio 10 model, had to document it for warranty parts. I had put cams & tappets in it under warranty before rollers came out. 1st set went 20K mi, this time another 20K mi and I had 1 out of 4 tappets looked like new.
The last Stelvio a 12 model had 37K mi on it looked like same wear. The next one lined up is a 11 model w/22K mi on it, can't wait to see what it looks like.
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Yes, that Stelvio 2010 model be mine.
Go, Steve, Go !!! Rollerize that bad boy!
I know "Herkimer" is in good hands !
Now if I could just keep my eyes off that
2015 red and black Griso you have on the floor....
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Yes, that Stelvio 2010 model be mine.
Go, Steve, Go !!! Rollerize that bad boy!
I know "Herkimer" is in good hands !
Now if I could just keep my eyes off that
2015 red and black Griso you have on the floor....
You should be able to get a new centerstand to replace the one I welded on that Stevio.
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Hey Wayne!
Yes, 2 open recalls getting addressed. New center stand and wire "loom"(just a rubber cap/cover).
Is your Stelvio rollerization completed ?
Say hey to the misses from us!
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Yes, 2 open recalls getting addressed. New center stand and wire "loom"(just a rubber cap/cover).
Is your Stelvio rollerization completed ?
Yes, I'm putting miles on mine again. Unusual not having the 'cement mixer' noises.
I still haven't installed that center stand. Too lazy to fight the springs.
Don't make too much fun of my crappy weld job on that stand. I'm a hack, but I have a grinder. :evil:
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I still haven't installed that center stand. Too lazy to fight the springs.
Grinders are for bad welders, I use one too!! I use a automotive drum brake spring tool on the springs, they go right on.