Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: willowstreetguzziguy on September 02, 2015, 07:25:02 PM
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Well, it did it to me again today! Coming home from work on a 92 degree day on my '08 1200 Sport. Stopped at a store to pick up something. I come out , turn the key, dash lights come on, needles do their dance, I press the starter button, and nothing. I hear the fuel pump in the gas tank humm.
I rode it many time since and it always started.
16 days earlier, on a 88 degree day, same thing... come out to start it after a quick stop at a store and nothing! Did not turn over. After waiting 50 minutes, it finally decided to start. And I rode home.
So I thought... kill button is off, ignition on, neutral, kickstand up and nothing. It's like I'm not even pressing the starter button. OK "Wait 50 minutes and maybe it will start", I thought. In the meantime, I checked connections and fuses. It didn't do anything when I pressed the starter until the 50 minute mark... and then it started!!!
Anybody have any ideas why twice now it had to sit for 50 minutes before starting.
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I had a Bassa that did just that.. I traded out all the relays and never had a problem again.. but the relays were Siemens brand and know to be troublesome in that era I'd think your bike is beyond that but never know..
Have you checked battery connections and main ground to frame? it's a better ground if you can put it to the engine.
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And you already did the 'Startus Interrupptuss' deal?
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No, haven't done that yet.
Someone else that I called mentioned the ground wire. I will look into that as well. Thanks. Any other suggestions?
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No, haven't done that yet.
Someone else that I called mentioned the ground wire. I will look into that as well. Thanks. Any other suggestions?
See PM. But just do the kit. For some reason, my 1200 Sport had this start/no start issue until I installed the 'startus interruptus' kit from MPH. I have one in reserve just in case the Griso starts doing the same thing, but so far, at 10,000 miles, Griso starts just fine all the time. BTW, 1200S is about to turn 60 (that's 60k miles) and going strong!
Bob
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Agree, put on the kit. I never had an issue, but I put on the kit, and now I don't worry about it.
See PM. But just do the kit. For some reason, my 1200 Sport had this start/no start issue until I installed the 'startus interruptus' kit from MPH. I have one in reserve just in case the Griso starts doing the same thing, but so far, at 10,000 miles, Griso starts just fine all the time. BTW, 1200S is about to turn 60 (that's 60k miles) and going strong!
Bob
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Not a matter of IF it's a matter of when.
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Roll your own, just cut the yellow wire a few inches from relay item (3) and power it from a new fuse at the battery
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif
I don't think it is related to temperature but the dash may be stopping it because it sees low Voltage although I would expect it not to prime in that case.
Did you happen to notice the battery Voltage indicated by the dash?
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Rub ashes upon your head before trying to kickstart it.
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Hey! What 'da hell are you drinking out there? :grin:
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Again, my former 06 B11 never had the problem AGAIN once I installed the Startus Interrupts fix.
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Hey Willow, check your ground behind the starter cover, its easy to check with only 2 screws, mine was loose and when I went to tighten it there was the dreaded ain't going to tighten up so I put in a Helicoil and have not had a problem sence :thumb:
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Mate, you've been given heaps of advice on the problem and how to solve it yet you continue to do take no action and then be amazed that it happens again.
With the greatest of respect it ISN't going to fix itself magically by complaining on the Internet. Either one of the two solutions suggested, the 'Plug In' Startus Interuptus kit or the wiring mod will almost certainly cure the problem permanently. Just do it. Stop flapping like a fish on a pier.
Pete
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I don't think it is related to temperature but the dash may be stopping it because it sees low Voltage although I would expect it not to prime in that case.
Did you happen to notice the battery Voltage indicated by the dash?
I do think there is some sort of link to temperature at least with my EV. All of the times it has done have been bright sunny days including 3 different times on my Aug trip. And I watched Manfredo's Stelvio do it after a pretty long stretch in high heat where he had cut it off then tried to start it up again. But who knows!
I went with the level 1 fix, a 20A fuse to replace the the stock 15A,and it hasn't done it since. If it does happen again at least I know to wait a minute, cuss a lot, hit all the switches a few times, put the side stand up and down a few times, and eventually the magic will reappear.
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I do think there is some sort of link to temperature at least with my EV. All of the times it has done have been bright sunny days including 3 different times on my Aug trip. And I watched Manfredo's Stelvio do it after a pretty long stretch in high heat where he had cut it off then tried to start it up again. But who knows!
I went with the level 1 fix, a 20A fuse to replace the the stock 15A,and it hasn't done it since. If it does happen again at least I know to wait a minute, cuss a lot, hit all the switches a few times, put the side stand up and down a few times, and eventually the magic will reappear.
I was having intermittent start failures on my EV. It was usually when the bike was warm and I was at a gas station. Too much noise for me to hear whether the fuel pump was priming. Finally it dies when I am out for a ride at Cedar Vale. Found out the fuses were corroded. The fuel pump primed when the fuse was pressed on. I've replaced the fuses and sprayed some contact cleaner/lube in the fuse holders.
Not had this problem since. It drove me crazy to figure it out.
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Mate, you've been given heaps of advice on the problem and how to solve it yet you continue to do take no action and then be amazed that it happens again.
With the greatest of respect it ISN't going to fix itself magically by complaining on the Internet. Either one of the two solutions suggested, the 'Plug In' Startus Interuptus kit or the wiring mod will almost certainly cure the problem permanently. Just do it. Stop flapping like a fish on a pier.
Pete
:1: Happened to me. I looked up the fix and had it rewired in well under an hour. Sound advice is useless unless followed- which in turn wastes the time of those giving the advice.
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When you press the starter button, is there a faint 'click' under the seat? If you have a faint click, but not start, you have the 'startus interruptus'. Adding a jumper is easy. Or adding the kit is easy if electrically challenged.
Yes it can be heat related. It can be cold related. It can be related to the moon phases. The power to the solenoid is too marginal. Anything in the path, connectors, ignition switch, sticky solenoid, even a weak fuse, can keep it from pulling the solenoid.
Even if that is not the issue, the kit install is a smart thing. Get it, or learn to bump start it.
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When you press the starter button, is there a faint 'click' under the seat? If you have a faint click, but not start, you have the 'startus interruptus'. Adding a jumper is easy. Or adding the kit is easy if electrically challenged.
Yes it can be heat related. It can be cold related. It can be related to the moon phases. The power to the solenoid is too marginal. Anything in the path, connectors, ignition switch, sticky solenoid, even a weak fuse, can keep it from pulling the solenoid.
Even if that is not the issue, the kit install is a smart thing. Get it, or learn to bump start it.
O.k. so when it did it in the parking lot of Bogarts it was August 1st and August 1st was a full moon.
Just sayin...
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Also I had a tip over switch that caused the same symptoms for me. Had done the startus interuptous fix but was still having it happen. Was told the tip over switch doesn't kill the motor, only won't let it start. Bumping it around helped a couple times but I put a fused start button between the battery + and the starter solenoid and that was my fail safe. Note, it was hard to tell, but when mine did it I could not hear a click from the starter relay. So I don't think that was main culprit. YMMV
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Biking Sailer hit the nail on the head. If the instruments do their dance and you hear the fuel pump, then more than likely the culprit is somewhere in the starter supply circuit. Instead of waiting 50 min. to get the thing to turn over (biking sailer put in a fused external starter switch) simply take a screwdriver and short between the little wire on the starter solenoid and the BIG terminal on the solenoid and the starter will turn, guaranteed! The engine will start unless one of the safety features like the big red switch or the side stand keeps the ignition off.
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OP, it can be harrowing to cut any wires so do yourself a huge favor, order the little kit from MPH and when it doesn't start, plug that in. Takes seconds. If it still doesn't start you'll know you have a problem elsewhere.
The kit isn't the always solution but it is one you should have with you, like a piece of Velcro and a $100 bill tightly folded in your wallet.
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If we all just applied the concept of Occam's Razor to troubleshooting Guzzis, we'd spend a lot more time riding and a lot less time fixing... :grin:
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If we all just applied the concept of Occam's Razor to troubleshooting Guzzis, we'd spend a lot more time riding and a lot less time fixing... :grin:
Speak the truth brother , speak it :bow: Elegance and simplicity rule :thumb:
Dusty
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Speak the truth brother , speak it :bow: Elegance and simplicity rule :thumb:
Dusty
And as Sherlock said - "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
Installing simple fixes for known weaknesses makes the problems they cause impossible - and leaves you more time to consider the improbable!
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And as Sherlock said - "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
Installing simple fixes for known weaknesses makes the problems they cause impossible - and leaves you more time to consider the improbable!
Hmm , Sherlock , always thought that was Will Rogers :laugh:
Dusty
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And as Sherlock said - "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
Installing simple fixes for known weaknesses makes the problems they cause impossible - and leaves you more time to consider the improbable!
Everyone knows it was Spock who said that. :boozing:
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Everyone knows it was Spock who said that. :boozing:
Well, Holmes did have pointed ears.
Spock, on the other hand, was a Trotskyite :evil:
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Well, Holmes did have pointed ears.
Spock, on the other hand, was a Trotskyite :evil:
Always thought he was Vulcan , the home of Vulcanizing .
Dusty
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Always thought he was Vulcan , the home of Vulcanizing .
Dusty
Since I'm a rabid left-winger, I keep track of such things :azn:
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" (paraphrased from Jeremy Bentham) is just a step to "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"! (BTW, the latter is a good motto for a forum like this :laugh: )
And to quote a couple of Aussies from the Philosophy Department - "John Stuart Mill, of his own free will, on half a pint of shandy was particularly ill"!!!
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You got startus interruptus dude, no use fighting it. ambient temp or how far you ride has nothing to do with anything... Just do the fix, dead easy.... and it will solve the problem forever.
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Or you could be using the wrong oil....
(ducking and running!!!)
Really...order the kit and enjoy many miles of not worrying
about it anymore!!!!
Ride safe and often,
Jeff
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Or you could be using the wrong oil....
(ducking and running!!!)
Really...order the kit and enjoy many miles of not worrying
about it anymore!!!!
Ride safe and often,
Jeff
There ya have it , words of wisdom never more true :bow:
Dusty
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Sorry I didn't respond today... I was working on a job and didn't have internet access... and yes I did order the KIT this morning from MPH... they said it cures 90% of the problem... thanks!
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Sorry I didn't respond today... I was working on a job and didn't have internet access... and yes I did order the KIT this morning from MPH... they said it cures 90% of the problem... thanks!
They are being modest . Good move Guy :thumb:
Dusty
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The way to not get stranded is to never travel far from home.
On the other hand getting stranded can be an adventure, possibly life changing.
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In the mean time, always park on a steep hill and bump the clutch with it in third gear. :evil:
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In the mean time, always park on a steep hill and bump the clutch with it in third gear. :evil:
Moto Guzzi
For those who miss owning an old English motorbike
Dusty
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In all seriousness, I have been stranded on bikes that are really heavy and that the starter would not turn the engine over, usually weak battery. Living in central Oklahoma you can't always find a convenient hill so I have asked passers by to help me push start it. Of course I don't ask those that may not be physically able, but I have never been turned down when asking a couple younger guys for help. Most of the times this has happened, they acted eager to help.
Maybe sometimes people like being part of the experience and it gives them something to talk about later? If it happens again, get the bike ready (in a mid gear and your gear ready as you don't want to make them stand around while you prepare) and wait for the right folks to come by.
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I have 20014 Norge, is this something I should be concerned about? Taking a trip in few weeks and would hate to get stranded! :bike-037:
Kris
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I have 20014 Norge, is this something I should be concerned about? Taking a trip in few weeks and would hate to get stranded! :bike-037:
Kris
I don't think they have changed the wiring on the newer bikes. Either buy the kit from MPH or else perform your own fix (much less expensive).
There is a long thread around here on Startus Interruptus (I have no idea if I spelled that right) in which KevM gave some instructions on wiring this up yourself. I followed the instructions, I had most of the bits lying around the garage, and have not had a problem since.
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As far as bump starting it, I tried that the other month just to see if I could do it. Every bike I've owned in the last 40 years was able to do it. I live on a nice size hill and I tried starting my 1200 sport in just about every gear, And all it did was skid the rear wheel. I weigh about220 pounds fully dressed and it did not want to move that rear wheel in any gear it either skidded or Bucked. Anybody have any luck starting at 1200 sport on a hill? If so let me know how.
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As far as bump starting it, I tried that the other month just to see if I could do it. Every bike I've owned in the last 40 years was able to do it. I live on a nice size hill and I tried starting my 1200 sport in just about every gear, And all it did was skid the rear wheel. I weigh about220 pounds fully dressed and it did not want to move that rear wheel in any gear it either skidded or Bucked. Anybody have any luck starting at 1200 sport on a hill? If so let me know how.
I just have to ask, are you purposely trying to be difficult?
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methinks I smell a troll.. trolls are exceedingly stinky.. don't feed the trolls.. :violent1:
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methinks I smell a troll.. trolls are exceedingly stinky.. don't feed the trolls.. :violent1:
Geez fellas , the OP already said he listened and ordered the MPH startus interruptus fix . Hell , let's not be to quick to judge , so far he hasn't physically threatened anyone , or called anyone stupid .
Dusty
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Geez fellas , the OP already said he listened and ordered the MPH startus interruptus fix . Hell , let's not be to quick to judge , so far he hasn't physically threatened anyone , or called anyone stupid .
Dusty
Yeah, I'm not seeing where the OP went Troll. He thanked everyone for the advice...what am I missing?
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I have 20014 Norge, is this something I should be concerned about? Taking a trip in few weeks and would hate to get stranded! :bike-037:
Kris
IMO Startus Interuptus isn't something to be "concerned" about. It's aggravating sure but every time I've seen it happen the bike in question eventually started. In one instance it did blow the fuse and I had to get off and replace that. But no hurries no worries.
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I just have to ask, are you purposely trying to be difficult?
Well, I'm not as energetic as I once was, but I have only once been successful in bump-starting my Norge. I haven't had to try too often, but it was a largely futile effort in most of those few cases. Since our OP has taken steps to deal with the starter, I figure we can wait to see the outcome of that...
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As far as bump starting it, I tried that the other month just to see if I could do it. Every bike I've owned in the last 40 years was able to do it. I live on a nice size hill and I tried starting my 1200 sport in just about every gear, And all it did was skid the rear wheel. I weigh about220 pounds fully dressed and it did not want to move that rear wheel in any gear it either skidded or Bucked. Anybody have any luck starting at 1200 sport on a hill? If so let me know how.
Did it skid in 4th and 5th? That good that you can practice. If you ever need it and only have 1 shot at it, you'll know how to do it.
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Moto Guzzi
For those who miss owning an old English motorbike
Dusty
:laugh: ~has a nice ring to it.
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If the battery has lots of capacity all you have to do is provide a hot wire from the battery direct to the solenoid spade connector and it should crank.
If the battery is flat put the bike in second then pull it back against compression.
Just before dropping the clutch lift up and crash down on the seat and drop the clutch (don't let it out slowly) the engine should be able to get up some speed before it strikes compression, the momentum will take it over.
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Must admit to not being able to bump start the Breva, rocked it back to ease the compression, tried it in every gear but it still just locked the back wheel.
My problem was the metal shield inside the starter motor came adrift and was shorting out the windings. Could not see the need for it so I ditched it and it has been all good since.
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IMO Startus Interuptus isn't something to be "concerned" about. It's aggravating sure but every time I've seen it happen the bike in question eventually started. In one instance it did blow the fuse and I had to get off and replace that. But no hurries no worries.
Dilli,
C'mon buddy, not everyone wants to sit around an hour for their bike to start again. Maybe you have a lot of time on your hands or EVENTUALLY have to get back to work, but the no hurries, no worries thing doesn't apply to everyone out there. I hope you don't live your life thinking everything fixes itself eventually.
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Doesn't seem like a bike you'd want to use in a bank robbery. :grin:
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Faced with a bike that just won't turn over it's hard to know just what the problem could be
A) Loose or bad connection on the battery
Scrape the terminals and always apply Vaseline to prevent oxidation
B) Loose ground
Measure the Voltage from an unrelated part of the chassis to the battery Negative post while trying to crank, it should never go over 0.2 Volts
The best place for the ground is bolted to the engine or gearbox, add some Vaseline or grease to prevent corrosion.
C) Bad starter
Measure the Voltage across it while trying to crank, anything over 10 Volts and it should be spinning, less than that suspect D
D) Flat battery or dud battery
Measure the Voltage while trying to crank right at the battery terminals not the lugs or the bolts, right on the posts, anything over 12 .5 Volts should be plenty to crank, over 11 Volts while cranking is a healthy battery.
Have someone watch the tail light if it stays bright while the bike is trying to crank it's not lack of Volts, the tail light should not be effected by Startus Interuptus.
E) Startus Interuptus
Eliminate this by touching a wire from the spade connector on the solenoid to battery positive or the hot terminal of the solenoid, be prepared for a spark, it's up to 50 Amps so don't use a tiny wire. And please make sure the bike is in Neutral, preferably with the clutch pulled in. If the bike spins over you have eliminated A,B,C & D leaving only E
How it spins with a jumper is how it should always spin and will once you do the fix.
It's 2 AM, I'm sure I missed something
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As far as bump starting it, I tried that the other month just to see if I could do it. Every bike I've owned in the last 40 years was able to do it. I live on a nice size hill and I tried starting my 1200 sport in just about every gear, And all it did was skid the rear wheel. I weigh about220 pounds fully dressed and it did not want to move that rear wheel in any gear it either skidded or Bucked. Anybody have any luck starting at 1200 sport on a hill? If so let me know how.
The important thing, the almost only real thing about bump startiung is:
2) Always drop the clutch, let it flick out. If you relaease it slowly it will reach compression and then not go over because the clutch will slip
1) Pull the engine back on compression before starting forward motion with the clutch in and follow 2 carefully.
0) Use 2nd or third and be ready to pull the clutch as soon as it fires, otherwise the engine will bog because of the low road speed.
-1) Roll off in neutral or a false neutral so that you can flick it into the gear you want and drop the clutch without the extra friction of rotating clutch plates and transmission
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The important thing, the almost only real thing about bump startiung is:
2) Always drop the clutch, let it flick out. If you relaease it slowly it will reach compression and then not go over because the clutch will slip
1) Pull the engine back on compression before starting forward motion with the clutch in and follow 2 carefully.
0) Use 2nd or third and be ready to pull the clutch as soon as it fires, otherwise the engine will bog because of the low road speed.
-1) Roll off in neutral or a false neutral so that you can flick it into the gear you want and drop the clutch without the extra friction of rotating clutch plates and transmission
Oh thing I would add is find a couple healthy young guys to help push it for you. Much easier that way.
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KIT INSTALLED, PROBLEM SOLVED, CASE CLOSED...........I hope!?!
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:thumb:
Worked for me for over a year. Installed the MPH kit on July 4th, 2014, and declared my independence from 'startus interruptus.' Not a failure of the starter motor to crank for 14 months and 10,000 miles.
Wish the same for your Sport.
Bob
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Another happy startus interruptus customer here. IMO these should just be a standard install on any CARC.
The first gen Norge seems to be the most prone.
Essentially there just way too much resistance between the starter and the switch. When the battery is just a bit low the starter will not engage.
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KIT INSTALLED, PROBLEM SOLVED, CASE CLOSED...........I hope!?!
Good to hear! Congrats! :thumb: Now you can pay for your consulting fees by making a donation for the operation of the forum. :shocked:
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As far as bump starting it, I tried that the other month just to see if I could do it. Every bike I've owned in the last 40 years was able to do it. I live on a nice size hill and I tried starting my 1200 sport in just about every gear, And all it did was skid the rear wheel. I weigh about220 pounds fully dressed and it did not want to move that rear wheel in any gear it either skidded or Bucked. Anybody have any luck starting at 1200 sport on a hill? If so let me know how.
Yup. I had the issue- bump started it- drove home- nd di the wiring fix with stuff on hand. It's that easy.