Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: catneck on September 03, 2015, 06:05:47 PM
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I have had the bike 3 weeks.
10k on the clock.
P O noted new tires front & rear.
I quickly logged 1000 miles, as this bike works well for me.
No dealers within 300 miles.
On a work trip via car last week.
Stopped at Moto Guzzi dealer.
Tech had an NTX on the rack.
I asked him what to look for.
He pointed to the axle pinch bolt.
Said to inspect mine when I returned home.
I did.
Both cracked.
Bike immediately parked.
Called dealer.
Out of warranty.
MG will not cover.
I have learned that they are 1 year only forks.
And only available as a complete leg (includes fork tube and internals).
Any help available?
Frustrated, as I like the bike.
I believe this to be a safety issue.
MG must be aware, I have seen this referenced before.
And MG remedied before.
Any pointers?
Later model/cross model fitment?
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P O noted new tires front & rear.
Most likely time they got over tightened!
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P O noted new tires front & rear.
Most likely time they got over tightened!
At an established shop no less. Which he cannot find a receipt for.
Looks like I am paying them a visit.
Arghh.
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I'm sure a good welder can fix it for you, the pinch bolts shouldn't be super tight.
Can you post a picture
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Yes. There you go. Emphasis on a GOOD welder.
I was panicking for you for a moment there, but [Kiwi_Roy] has it right. Unless it's some extremely strange alloy, it should be weldable by a welder who knows his stuff.
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(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm127/cat_neck/Moto%20Guzzi%20Stelvio/20150829_134940_zpskpzmj5hk.jpg) (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/cat_neck/media/Moto%20Guzzi%20Stelvio/20150829_134940_zpskpzmj5hk.jpg.html)URL=http://s295.photobucket.com/user/cat_neck/media/Moto%20Guzzi%20Stelvio/20150830_183405_zps6vqdyvj5.jpg.html](http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm127/cat_neck/Moto%20Guzzi%20Stelvio/20150830_183405_zps6vqdyvj5.jpg)[/URL]
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The bottom of the leg is a casting and critical. I would strongly advise against welding.
The only reason the castings crack is because they get over tightened by a gorilla. This is the reason we have inch/pound torque wrenches. To help prevent it happening Guzzi recommended swapping from the hex head pinch bolts to Allen heads which are less likely to be over-torqued by 'Captain Simian' at yer average tyre shop.
Pete
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The bottom of the leg is a casting and critical. I would strongly advise against welding.
The only reason the castings crack is because they get over tightened by a gorilla. This is the reason we have inch/pound torque wrenches. To help prevent it happening Guzzi recommended swapping from the hex head pinch bolts to Allen heads which are less likely to be over-torqued by 'Captain Simian' at yer average tyre shop.
Pete
Gotta agree with Pete , this type of casting should not be welded . Maybe try to locate a used set .
Dusty
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I like the used parts idea.
New is $550 each leg.
I hate to invest and have this recur.
I know of the allen screw replacement, and will do that.
Is there a source for MG spares ala Beemer Bomeyard?
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I never let anyone near my hubs/axle/wheel hardware. Maybe Roper.
As this is a critical component, I would not be welding. I would not expect anyone to own up to over-torquing them either.
The lower fork/hub is available as a separate part. AF1 have them listed at $454.58.
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I never let anyone near my hubs/axle/wheel hardware. Maybe Roper.
As this is a critical component, I would not be welding. I would not expect anyone to own up to over-torquing them either.
The lower fork/hub is available as a separate part. AF1 have them listed at $454.58.
Yeah , and maybe not even Pete after a night at the pub :grin:
I like the used parts idea.
New is $550 each leg.
I hate to invest and have this recur.
I know of the allen screw replacement, and will do that.
Is there a source for MG spares ala Beemer Bomeyard?
Maybe someone here will respond . Damn , MC spares are expensive . Good luck .
Dusty
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How does the price of a set of the later 45mm forks compare?
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In the service training docs from guzzi they tell it is not a safety problem. I know someone who has it on the road in Russia, and they put a bolt trough it and he rode home with that.
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That design sucks, it should only take a pair of 6mm bolts to pinch that together
I agree now that I see it not the sort of thing you want to weld but at $1000 for the pair I would certainly be asking around.
Another option might be a good machinist who could machine up a pair of slip in ends from billet.
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Dang, catneck. I know this causes you some bother.
Your choices are this:
1. Replace the broken castings with new or used parts.
New parts are going to be expensive. Used parts will be very difficult to find since these bikes are very rare in the the biking population. I checked Pinwall Cycles (purveyor of used Guzzi stuff) and they have an 09 tank but no fork parts. I see nothing on Ebay. You may should call Curtis Harper at Harper's Moto Guzzi. They can often help with Guzzi needs. Same with Moto International in Seattle.
2. Make do with your damaged parts.
Yes, this looks serious and bad. However, it may not be as critical as some speculate. The pinch clamp's main function is to allow alignment and smooth movement of the forks legs before tightening everything up. Of course, the pinch helps secure the axle in its bore but the likelihood of the axle falling out without a tighten pinch clamp seems remote if the axle nut is properly tightened.
Still, I can understand trepidation over the security of your front wheel.
By the way, I wouldn't downrate anyone for over tightening these pinch bolts. I can understand someone thinking they needed to torque them down good and the casting doesn't look vulnerable upon casual observation. Of course, a dealer shop should have been knowledgeable of the peculiarities of these bikes but ... whatever. Things happen.
As already suggested on here, if you wanna salvage the stock parts, consult a good welder. A practical and workable fix may be a welding job. Any resulting weld joint should not be subject to much subsequent stress caused by tightening the pinch clamp. The weld should be made with the pinch gap opened only enough to allow alignment of the fork and/or removal of the axle so, when tightened, the weld joint is subject to minimal flex. The weld joint should be as small as possible with not a lot of build-up around the joint that will make it most rigid. The idea is to preserve some of the clamp flex in the material on either side of the weld. Being aluminum complicates this job.
I am not sure if this will work but talk to a good welder and be sure he realizes the function of the pinch clamp. You don't have much to lose by trying.
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Sorry David but this post gets you very close to 'Dangerous Idiot' territory. I know it's not your life you're playing with but if your understanding of the laws of physics is so poor please, just shut the f*** up.
Pete
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I'd take it as a sign from above that it's time to upgrade the complete front fork assembly, maybe those 45mm forks Pete mentioned.
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Sorry David but this post gets you very close to 'Dangerous Idiot' territory. I know it's not your life you're playing with but if your understanding of the laws of physics is so poor please, just shut the f$!k up.
Pete
Pete, you are always way beyond that point yet you never take you own advice to "just shut the f$!k up." lol
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This fork bottom looked close to having the same bracketry as the NTX fork. Just a thought. It's a Duc part, but more importantly, it's a Marzocchi part. This might be another avenue for bottoms. You would have to verify tube diameter and axle diameter of course.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ducati-Monster-1100-EVO-Marzocchi-Right-Side-Lower-Fork-Leg-Foot-Caliper-Mount-/271313974794?hash=item3f2b92b60a&vxp=mtr
(http://thmb.inkfrog.com/thumbn/tmeiners/2012_DUCATI_MONSTER_1100_EVO_V-054731_FORK_LEG_RIGHT_001.JPG=450)
Price:
US $168.74
Buy It Now
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I had a 2002 Pegaso, and I did the same thing to the Marzocchi forks that came stock on that. Shortly after I discovered it, I had the good fortune of being left turned by some lady who's mother had just died. Insurance paid for a set of forks on that bike. Seems if you are used to clamping down on the old 35mm sliders of yore, the same torque applied to the dual pinch bolt "modern" forks can have deliterious effects.
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I had a 2002 Pegaso, and I did the same thing to the Marzocchi forks that came stock on that. Shortly after I dscovered it, I had the good fortune of being left turned by some lady who's mother had just died. Insurance paid for a set of forks on that bike. Seems if you are used to clamping down on the old 35mm sliders of yore, the same torque applied to the dual pinch bolt "modern" forks can have deliterious effects.
Lol, well,I guess that's one way to solve the problem. However, I hesitate to advise a staged wreck to have insurance pay the tab. lol
The Ducati parts will be expensive to buy and adapt too.
Again, either get new/used non-cracked parts or consult someone who knows more about welding aluminum than any of us and consider a repair.
Paul's previous post is also informative.
In the service training docs from guzzi they tell it is not a safety problem. I know someone who has it on the road in Russia, and they put a bolt trough it and he rode home with that.
Another possibility from an adept machine shop is to fashion another clamp assembly, maybe from steel or stainless steel, around the broken clamp section to effect another clamp on top of the broken aluminum clamp section. This may be better than the stock design.
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Disappointed Leafman. It's not an option to weld but you want to insult Mister Roper and continue the Dangerous Idiot theme.
It's this kind of attitude that drives good men mad and leaves internet boards being populated by fools, thus lowering the IQ to ground level.
Cease and desist from this annoyance. This board is better than what you seek to drag it down to.
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That design sucks, it should only take a pair of 6mm bolts to pinch that together
It does look like a bad design, but it's similar to ones that other makers have used before.
When this issue first came up, I sat down next to my Stelvio forks and considered them.
First of all, very little "clamping force" is needed to hold the axle. Matter of fact, with both clamps broken, the front axle stays in place anyway. It looks to me like the "clamps" are there to literally keep the axle from rotating and rattling around.
Second, the fact that TWO bolts side by side are clamping this thing down is problematic, even if you're using a torque wrench. I took a 6" long box end wrench, choked up on it halfway so that I had only about a 3" lever arm, and started tightening the bolts on one side.
Tighten one bolt so that it's firmly set. Now tighten the other bolt so that it is firmly set.
Now go back and check the other one. OOPS, it's loose now, tighten it so that it's firmly set.
Now go back and check the other one. OOPS, it's loose now, tighten it so that it's firmly set.
Now go back and check the other one. OOPS, it's loose now, tighten it so that it's firmly set.
Now go back and check the other one. OOPS, it's loose now, tighten it so that it's firmly set.
Now go back and check the other one. OOPS, it's loose now, tighten it so that it's firmly set.
You can see where this is going. This sequence doesn't stop until the clamp is about broken, or so tight that it will break under the bumps of a ride, and you've never put more than a few inch-pounds on an INDIVIDUAL bolt.
Same will happen with a torque wrench. At some point, you have to have the willpower to STOP even though you could put some more torque on the "other" bolt after you tighten one and still not exceed the spec.
For me, I clean the threads, apply Loctite blue, set each one in place and give them a little pull, then leave them alone - don't go back and "check" the last one .... No broken clamps .....
Lannis
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I respect all your viewpoints - the geometry would make welding challenging, and castings can be problematic for welding. That said, you should locate a trained and experienced welder and ask their opinion.
There are professional welders who work miracles daily with improbable alloys and complex geometries. If one of them advises against it I'd respect their opinion. If one of them says " Oh, that's not as difficult as you might think " that's a different ball game.
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Probly cost more than new parts, who did the pre buy inspection?
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Probly cost more than new parts, who did the pre buy inspection?
That would be me.
I trade bikes frequently.
Never had to look for this before.
Lesson learned.
Thanks for all the input.
Really curious about later NTX fork fitment.
Does that unit use the same axle pinch arrangement?
Will be calling Curtis later today.
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I respect all your viewpoints - the geometry would make welding challenging, and castings can be problematic for welding. That said, you should locate a trained and experienced welder and ask their opinion.
There are professional welders who work miracles daily with improbable alloys and complex geometries. If one of them advises against it I'd respect their opinion. If one of them says " Oh, that's not as difficult as you might think " that's a different ball game.
The problem with welding this type of casting is the porosity of the base metal . Sure , it can be TIG welded , and will be cosmetically fine , but when bending stresses are applied , the base metal will crack just outside of the weld seam . It is difficult to relieve and heat treat cast aluminum/mag alloys . This is a VERY important component , kinda like brakes or tires , the risk of failure is simply to high . That said , Chuckie hasn't weighed in yet , and he probably knows more than most about this . Yo Chuck , any ideas ?
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That would be me.
I trade bikes frequently.
Never had to look for this before.
You wouldn't have been expected to look for and find something like this. The only ones who would are those of us that are already aware that it's a potential problem, have seen it happen with other bikes, and would know to get down and look close and rub around and find the crack.
Some Guzzi EV steering heads cracked in the early 2000s, but you'd be unlikely to find it on a pre-buy inspection unless you knew to look for it ....
Lannis
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I consider it the price of knowledge , unfortunately that was an expensive lesson but at least it wasn't me!
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Ducati aluminum swingarms cracked and were weld repaired routinely. Steel frames cracked and were scrapped routinely..
YMMV
Best,
Peter
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[snippity]
By the way, I wouldn't downrate anyone for over tightening these pinch bolts. I can understand someone thinking they needed to torque them down good and the casting doesn't look vulnerable upon casual observation. Of course, a dealer shop should have been knowledgeable of the peculiarities of these bikes but ... whatever. Things happen.
[snip]
The pinch bolt has been a staple of mechanical stuff since the goddess was a puppy. I'd downrate the ratsnot out of a 'mechanic' who broke $1000 worth of parts due to mishandling pinch bolts. I'd show him a whole new use for a torque wrench.
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3 dealers are not aware of fixes other than: "Buy new copies of same (potentially error prone) design and hope Mongo is able to read 7 ft/lbs on his torque wrench".
They are all aware of the issue, I am just the latest to call on it.
Frustrating.
Its why I keep records on my bikes-to prove accountability in these situations.
Wish the PO had.
Now back to looking for the used needle in the haystack.
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Ducati aluminum swingarms cracked and were weld repaired routinely. Steel frames cracked and were scrapped routinely..
YMMV
Best,
Peter
Aluminum swing arms are usually an extrusion , different from a basic casting .
Dusty
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During previous episodes with the same parts I have talked with Marzocchi as well as Guzzi. Marzocchi denies any existence of a problem saying that the proper torques are supplied to the manufacture. This is not a Guzzi specific problem, it's an education problem. Anything pinch bolt like this can break from a ham-fisted mechanic. I don't know how many brembo master cylinders I have seen snapped for the came reason. If this was done at a shop, I would expect them to stand behind their work. Just as anyone would expect me to fix something I broke.
What I can tell you is this. If the part is available currently from Piaggio, probably better get your hands on it before it is no longer available.
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Aluminum swing arms are usually an extrusion , different from a basic casting .
Dusty
Oh, I don't know..perhaps..but I wouldn't weld this failure anyway. Unless there was no other way.
Best,
Peter
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Oh, I don't know..perhaps..but I wouldn't weld this failure anyway. Unless there was no other way.
Best,
Peter
"Usually" as in almost always :laugh: It is odd that steel Duc frames are scrapped , might have to do with all of those little tubes going every which direction :grin:
Dusty
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This fork bottom looked close to having the same bracketry as the NTX fork. Just a thought. It's a Duc part, but more importantly, it's a Marzocchi part. This might be another avenue for bottoms. You would have to verify tube diameter and axle diameter of course.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ducati-Monster-1100-EVO-Marzocchi-Right-Side-Lower-Fork-Leg-Foot-Caliper-Mount-/271313974794?hash=item3f2b92b60a&vxp=mtr
(http://thmb.inkfrog.com/thumbn/tmeiners/2012_DUCATI_MONSTER_1100_EVO_V-054731_FORK_LEG_RIGHT_001.JPG=450)
Price:
US $168.74
Buy It Now
Unfortunately a completely different component. The Stelvio forks use a leading axle and it is this that makes the break so critical. The forces acting on the axle as well as pushing upwards will be using the bolts themselves as a fulcrum which in the right circumstances may snap off the lower part of the casting and simply allow the wheel and axle to fall out of the fork. The integrity of the casting is a vital safety issue and I'm sorry, I don't care if someone rode back from Russia with a bolt through tha axle and casting the fact remains that the potential for serious injury or death in the event of failure is astronomical.
Even if you are willing to take that risk yourself at least have the decency to consider others. A quarter of a tonne of cartwheeling Stelvio could cause a lot of damage to innocent bystanders. Consider that.
Pete
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What is the factory torque spec on the bolts in question? And, is that trustworthy, and technique-dependent (Re:Lannis' post about tightening and re-tightening two fasteners working in parallel)
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10 NM or 7.3 Ft Lbs..
Not much is required.
Per earlier post, do not recheck after first is torqued.
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one thought re possibility of welding; the American Welding Society (aws.org) has multiple forums with professional advise. Maybe post your issue there and let the professionals look at it.
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10 NM or 7.3 Ft Lbs..
Not much is required.
Per earlier post, do not recheck after first is torqued.
I'm trying to be quiet after my first post, but THIS is correct.
The implication has been that if you simply read the right numbers off the torque wrench, and keep tightening both until you read 7.3 lb-ft on both, then all is well, so simple ANYONE can do it.
In fact, you will be looking at a broken clamp if you do that. So maybe someone can take a little video of exactly how you use a torque wrench to tighten down TWO parallel bolts on a clamp to a given torque, so Mongo see how him do, and Mongo do like Sheriff Bart? DO expert mechanics have a technique (as John asked) that involves something more than simply listening to a wrench click?
Lannis
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That fork is a bad design. There is no way that should ever been produced by a reputable manufacturer period. In every instance the bolts should be able to strip the aluminum threads out of the tube first before breaking the clamp area. Inch pounds or ft lb's(pound ft too) should not be able to break a part designed well. And really this is the part holding the front wheel on. Just call that that fork what it really is, a poor design that should not have ever made it to production. Mike
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That fork is a bad design. There is no way that should ever been produced by a reputable manufacturer period. In every instance the bolts should be able to strip the aluminum threads out of the tube first before breaking the clamp area. Inch pounds or ft lb's(pound ft too) should not be able to break a part designed well. And really this is the part holding the front wheel on. Just call that that fork what it really is, a poor design that should not have ever made it to production. Mike
Yeah, we're kind of saying that about the manufacturing processes and design for the mirrors, and the spark plug boots, and the valve train, and the swingarm bearings, and the relay-less headlights, and now the front-end clamps ...
Maybe there's a trend here, I don't know ....
Lannis
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And really this is the part holding the front wheel on.
I guess I look at axle clamps like that as one that holds the axle in place so that the nut on the end of the axle can be tightened properly and then the clamp on that side of the axle can then be tightened down properly. But herculean tightening of either clamp is not needed. With a double bolted clamp, I would think that one would first finger tighten and then slowly tighten each in very gradual steps, alternating to one bolt and then to the other, slowly...anyone have thoughts on this? Looking at this part, I think I sure could have designed a more robust piece than that, but what do I know, sigh...
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If I owned an undamaged unit, I'd be tempted to shim the pinch slot. the desired pinch could be calculated by measuring the pinch gap both tight and loose as well as od of axle and id of fork. shim size would ideally allow for desired pinch at the specified torque. Some forks seem to be susceptible to this. On the Norge I use a torque wrench. shrug
Best,
Peter
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That fork is a bad design. There is no way that should ever been produced by a reputable manufacturer period. In every instance the bolts should be able to strip the aluminum threads out of the tube first before breaking the clamp area. Inch pounds or ft lb's(pound ft too) should not be able to break a part designed well. And really this is the part holding the front wheel on. Just call that that fork what it really is, a poor design that should not have ever made it to production. Mike
S'funny, a while back there was another thread about Marzocchi ceasing production and I mentioned in passing that I thought that it had been a long time since they had been much chop and I got jumped on. :grin:
Pete
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the design with the axle in front of the legs is normal with all enduro bikes. I couldn't find one using the same forks as the stelvio. So if it isn't available at all, or the newer forks, with new triple clamps, or custom made triple clamps and (used)forks of another adv bike with axle under the legs
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Found a couple shops that may be able to find used parts.
Glad this is not my only bike!
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You might check with J & S East Valley Garage, 1610 E Valley Rd., Santa Barbara, CA 93108 (805) 969-4147.
He does some amazing things with aluminum engine blocks and may be able to do something with these. Might be worth a phone call.
jdg
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That said , Chuckie hasn't weighed in yet , and he probably knows more than most about this . Yo Chuck , any ideas ?
Yeah, but none of them are good. First.. as Lannis sez, that two pinch bolt thing isn't a good idea. Very little torque is required and it is way too easy to over torque them.
Many will flame me, but I *think* it could be welded. The problem being finding a source that is capable of doing do it. Back in the day, I knew a guy that could do it, had the normalizing ovens, etc. but he died of brain cancer like most of the others. :sad:
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Chuck, in a world where putting the right amount of gear oil in a gearbox and balancing throttle bodies on a system as simple as the W5AM is a seeming anaethma would you recommend taking such a structurally vital component to your neigborhood welder?
Yes, I'm sure that with the correct tooling and skills, probably at a price far in excess of new parts, it could be done. Most things can! But is it logical or the best course of action???
Pete
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Chuck, in a world where putting the right amount of gear oil in a gearbox and balancing throttle bodies on a system as simple as the W5AM is a seeming anaethma would you recommend taking such a structurally vital component to your neigborhood welder?
Yes, I'm sure that with the correct tooling and skills, probably at a price far in excess of new parts, it could be done. Most things can! But is it logical or the best course of action???
Pete
It's probably not practical, I'll give you that. From memory, here's what needs to be done. Machine the crack completely down to base metal with a ball nose end mill. Taper that back on roughly a 45 degree angle on both sides. The welder will preheat the whole piece in an oven.. sorry.. I don't remember at what temperature. When it is heat soaked, he'll fill the machined out area. Once welded, he'd cover the whole thing in a box of mica and put it in another oven to cool slowly.
Now, of course, the area including the pinch bolt counterbores will have to be machined back on location. That is a pretty good trick in itself.. :smiley: but doable on unobtainium stuff.
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Used part search has been fruitless.
I also am coming to grips that the brand has less than stellar spares inventory.
I am coming over from another European marque.
I have been spoiled by that brand's attention to customer issues.
This would have been covered. Forever.
And a workaround would be engineered from available spares.
I wish I didn't like this goofy bike.
It would be much easier that way.
Rant over.
Back to parts hunting.
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I know of a bloke over here who is wrecking out an early Stelvio but given the discrepancy in parts prices between here and where you are it would probably be cheaper just to buy new.
Pete
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I have a question to all that would care to comment.
With the proper torque setting, the clamp gap is set. Let us say for this question that the gap is .100 of an inch,( for the folks on the wrong standard),approx 4mm. What if a shim was placed in the gap before the bolts are tightened. Now apply the correct torque, if Meathead the Strong twist the bolts a little tighter, the gap has hit it's limit. To further limit the chance of a problem drill the shim plate so that the pinch bolts will go though and hold the plate. I suggest this out of fear. I did this for my Stelvio, albeit I am the only one that changes the wheels it has given me some level of peace.
If it works for you great, if not throw it on the pile of bad ideas.
Good luck
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If I owned an undamaged unit, I'd be tempted to shim the pinch slot. the desired pinch could be calculated by measuring the pinch gap both tight and loose as well as od of axle and id of fork. shim size would ideally allow for desired pinch at the specified torque. Some forks seem to be susceptible to this. On the Norge I use a torque wrench. shrug
Best,
Peter
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Pinch clamps for the Honda ST 1100 handlebars are notorious for cracking until it was discovered that once loosened they are tightened in a sequence different than what seemed obvious. Using a torque wrench only assured that if the sequence of tightening wasn't correct, the clamps broke just as easily.
The pinch bolts worked on uneven gaps, trying to make them even only resulted in cracking. Many owners therefore tightened them by feel but rarely put the handlebars on properly once removed.
Maybe the pinch bolts on the Stelvio work the same way? On the ST, if memory serves, there was only a gap on one side, the other being set down in contact and then the other set to the proper gap.
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this probelm, while not common is not unheard of. I would never weld it. its cast pot metal. The one case I heard of was torqued by Larry with a digital snapon 1/4 drive wrench. The boy is meticulous about torquing fasteners. The bike we touched broke the clamp 1500 miles later in Canada.
I would source a later fork assembly if pointed emails to customer service didnt get you reults
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Later assembly would be optimum.
I dont know what would fit.
Dealer told me these were 1 year only.
Later units were bigger diameter tubes, and he has seen those crack as well.
Edit: I stand corrected. Smaller tubes. Do they also crack?
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Later models use 45mm rather than 50mm legs.
Pete
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In your place I would start looking for a salvaged fork assembly from another ADV bike. You might even be able to find one that has the same or close the the same offset. If you do, you'd probably have to have a new stem machined, or the old one modified to fit. The stack height of the headstock and bearings are another consideration, but with most forks you have a considerable amount of leeway by moving the lower triple clamp up or down on the fork legs. A further consideration would be the master cylinder; you want to use the master cylinder from the donor bike, or make sure yours is the same diameter.
If the offset differences are too great, perhaps the old triple clamps can be a) bored out, or b) shimmed to accommodate the new legs. Or you might want to consider having new triple clamps made. There might be someone out there that does that all the time, and can do it for a reasonable price. I realize these are leading axle; are there any other long-travel street bikes out there with leading axle forks?
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I don't know what determines these things, but my '09 Stelvio fork leg was replaced gratis earlier this year here in Toronto thanks to George at Corsa Meccanica.
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I don't know what determines these things, but my '09 Stelvio fork leg was replaced gratis earlier this year here in Toronto thanks to George at Corsa Meccanica.
What might be driving it is a very smart and caring dealer who is doing what is necessary to assure that he has a customer who will come back to him for his next bike, all his parts, and any necessary repairs.
It would work on me, I'll say that ....
Lannis
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this probelm, while not common is not unheard of. I would never weld it. its cast pot metal. The one case I heard of was torqued by Larry with a digital snapon 1/4 drive wrench. The boy is meticulous about torquing fasteners. The bike we touched broke the clamp 1500 miles later in Canada.
I would source a later fork assembly if pointed emails to customer service didnt get you reults
The only time I ever get my torque wrench out is for stuff like cylinder heads. I can't imagine why anyone would want to use one on anything else. Especially on stuff like pinch bolts. I suppose, if you're a dealer in the land of litigation you're always on the safe side if you use a torque wrench. ;-)
John
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Right after I got my 09 Stelvio, the dealer cracked on side of the fork legs during a tire change. It was right before a trip and I was desperate to get a replacement. I found that Teo Lamers in the NL had them in stock, but right before I ordered it, the dealer got the replacement from Guzzi so all was good.
Interestingly, when they replaced the side that was broken, they also replaced the bolts. The bolts they replaced them with were small head allen bolts with no shoulder. The new side had more material around the bolt hole because it wasn't machined out for the shoulder of the original bolt.
The good news is, that that was 5 years ago now, and the original side has never been broken with the installation of the updated bolts.
Hope you find a solution. Have you tried contacting Marzocchi directly? Maybe they can help.
Not great pictures, but you can clearly see the difference in the bolt and the casting.
This is the original side...
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o71/DougRitchie/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/IMAG0101.jpg) (http://s117.photobucket.com/user/DougRitchie/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/IMAG0101.jpg.html)
This is the new side. Notice how there's more material around the bolts.
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o71/DougRitchie/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/IMAG0099.jpg) (http://s117.photobucket.com/user/DougRitchie/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/IMAG0099.jpg.html)
At the very least, if you repair them, I would use the smaller head allens.
Doug
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The only time I ever get my torque wrench out is for stuff like cylinder heads. I can't imagine why anyone would want to use one on anything else. Especially on stuff like pinch bolts. I suppose, if you're a dealer in the land of litigation you're always on the safe side if you use a torque wrench. ;-)
John
Except that if you use a torque wrench on these unsupported dual clamp bolts, you will snap the clamp right in two ....
Lannis
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FWIW, I use a torque wrench on mine. I only make one pass on each though. Perhaps just lucky.
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FWIW, I use a torque wrench on mine. I only make one pass on each though. Perhaps just lucky.
I don't know. Better check the torque on that first one you did! JEEZ, it's barely more than finger tight! I KNOW I torqued it to 7 whatevers. All right, I got it now ... Now the OTHER one is just about finger tight!
Nothing else works like that except an unsupported dual-bolt clamp. Cylinder heads, flange covers, nothing else that we ever torque works like that. Is it any mystery why we find broken clamps ... ? Hardly any point in using a torque wrench if you're going to ignore the reading, which you have to do ....
Lannis
Lannis
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What might be driving it is a very smart and caring dealer who is doing what is necessary to assure that he has a customer who will come back to him for his next bike, all his parts, and any necessary repairs.
It would work on me, I'll say that ....
Lannis
It would work on me too.
I am a serial bike buyer.
I want a V7.
But not if Piaggio customer service (per dealer, whose hands are tied, asked me to contact parent company directly) will not return email query.
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I had the same set up on another bike. I don't recall it being aluminum or steel but I would guess steel. The fork leg was a 1 piece unit including the clamp. I never used a torque wrench and never had a problem. Maybe it is because I use an "Allen" wrench not a socket and ratchet. The little Allen wrench kinda hurts your hand when you start pulling hard on it. :grin: I guess that would be a different kind of torque wrench. Based on a pain index instead of a thought out system based on length and force. :grin:
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The handlebar clamps on old airheads were non symmetrical , the manual clearly states to tighten the skinny side first , and then the fatter side . The fatter side was designed to have a larger gap . I don't think any torque figures were published .
Dusty
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Right after I got my 09 Stelvio, the dealer cracked on side of the fork legs during a tire change. It was right before a trip and I was desperate to get a replacement. I found that Teo Lamers in the NL had them in stock, but right before I ordered it, the dealer got the replacement from Guzzi so all was good.
Interestingly, when they replaced the side that was broken, they also replaced the bolts. The bolts they replaced them with were small head allen bolts with no shoulder. The new side had more material around the bolt hole because it wasn't machined out for the shoulder of the original bolt.
Hope you find a solution. Have you tried contacting Marzocchi directly? Maybe they can help?
This is the new side. Notice how there's more material around the bolts.RL]
At the very least, if you repair them, I would use the smaller head allens.
Doug
Thanks
I emailed Marzocchi. I will be using allen bolts too.
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Thanks
I emailed Marzocchi.
I don't think you will be getting a reply on that one :undecided:
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I don't think you will be getting a reply on that one :undecided:
Correct.
Crickets from Marzocchi.
Their website brags of their affiliation with Tenneco.
Is that still curent?
Not a peep from Piaggio either.
Guess I had to try.
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Did you try Teo Lamers in the Netherlands. They had them in stock when mine were broken?
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Didn't I just read somewhere that Marzocchi had gone tits?
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Sorry but I think I would have come up with a fix by now :thewife:
Ducking, running.
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Not my only bike, I keep waiting on a workaround revelation, or a used setup.
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Just bucked up for new. Looking forward to getting the Guzzi off the lift and on the tarmac.
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http://www.tlm.nl/en/parts/used-parts/gedemonteerd-stelvio-8v/ (http://www.tlm.nl/en/parts/used-parts/gedemonteerd-stelvio-8v/)
As posted earlier, Teo Lamers is a good source for Guzzi part. Very competent dealership.
The have an 09 recently broken down. Send them an email. As I have a 2010 model I do keep diligent about not breaking my own. I would try to get both fork in there entirety.
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Sent an inquiry their way last week.
Cost prohibitive.
My local(ish) dealer is getting the business.
He has been a great help.
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Ignoring the question as to whether its good practice to weld this up or not, I think the welding alone would cause a problem.
I would expect any welding to "pull" to some extent and the bored hole where the axle fits would be come oval/distorted and the clamp bolts wouldn't cause the casting pull down evenly around the axle
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New parts in house. :thumb:
Bike will go together tomorrow. Looking forward to getting the Stelvio back on the road.
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Ok. Thats done. Any hot tips on fork oil weight/level?
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Ok. Thats done. Any hot tips on fork oil weight/level?
I have some experience with 2009 Stelvio forks, including knowing how to tighten the axle clamps after realizing that people were breaking them!
When I lowered the rear suspension 1" with a much heavier spring, I also put a heavier spring in the front end (105 pounds/inch rather than the stock 95). I took apart the forks, fabricated longer pre-load tubes out of Schedule 60 PVC, replaced the seals and dust covers, and reassembled with the tubes slid 1" higher into the clamps to match the rear.
But I never did anything that made me think that I should monkey with the weight or amount of oil in the fork. What problem would I be trying to solve? Sometimes folks just want to be different, but I don't think this is the place for it ....
Good luck and glad things went well (if expensively) for you!
Lannis
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Looking to reduce brake dive. I am a somewhat agressive rider. Used to telelever front ends.
Not needing to lower, in fact just raised the bike up from the (shorter than me) P.O.
His method had raised the fork tubes and backed off the rear shock preload.
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Why not just add oil until it feels good? No personal experience with these particular forks..
Best,
Peter
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All better! Back on the road with new lowers, allen bolts, and 10w oil at 110 mm.
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm127/cat_neck/Moto%20Guzzi%20Stelvio/20151016_173756_zpsruuulhvd.jpg) (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/cat_neck/media/Moto%20Guzzi%20Stelvio/20151016_173756_zpsruuulhvd.jpg.html)
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Thanks for the update , too many times folks post up some problem , and then simply disappear . We love hearing how things get solved :bow:
Dusty
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Why not just add oil until it feels good? No personal experience with these particular forks..
Best,
Peter
Gotta take the fork to pieces to add oil. Not an easy experiment .....
Lannis
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All better! Back on the road with new lowers, allen bolts, and 10w oil at 110 mm.
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm127/cat_neck/Moto%20Guzzi%20Stelvio/20151016_173756_zpsruuulhvd.jpg)
(http://s295.photobucket.com/user/cat_neck/media/Moto%20Guzzi%20Stelvio/20151016_173756_zpsruuulhvd.jpg.html)
Way to hang in there!
By the way, you can snap that clamp with the allen bolts just as easily as with the hex bolts. Gently does it .....
Lannis