Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ackattak on September 06, 2015, 10:26:47 AM
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Hey gang. I'm new here, so forgive me if this topic has previously been addressed.
I have a 2014 V7 Stone. Yesterday I completed its first oil change after the break-in period just shy of 5,000km.
Did it at home myself by following the guidelines in the manual + got my oil and filter from my MG dealer.
It went pretty well. Tightened all the plugs back up. Filled 'er up with 1.6-1.7L of synthetic 10W60. Checked the level and it was definitely high enough. No discernible issues.
But then after about 10 minutes of city riding, the engine started making a whining/squealing noise. I stopped immediately but couldn't seem to figure out what was wrong.
No leaks. The oil level was still high. The bike didn't seem to be running rough or vibrating or revving abnormally. Only issue was that whining/squealing noise. Plus, said noise would only happen when I was using the throttle while in gear. When the bike glided with the clutch pulled in AND during idle it sounded/felt 100% normal.
Any ideas what could be going on here? I don't wanna ride it because I'm afraid damage may occur.
Thanks!
-A
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Sounds like a clutch issue , or gearbox . Did you drain the gearbox , what us Americans would call the transmission .
Dusty
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Sounds like a clutch issue , or gearbox . Did you drain the gearbox , what us Americans would call the transmission .
Dusty
No, I didn't drain the gearbox. Didn't think to do it because I'm still at least 5,000km away from that specific service interval. Would that still need to be done with a dry clutch?
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No, I didn't drain the gearbox. Didn't think to do it because I'm still at least 5,000km away from that specific service interval. Would that still need to be done with a dry clutch?
No . The reason for the question is that the nomenclature used in the manual is confusing . The final drive , or bevel box , is labeled transmission , and the transmission is labeled gearbox . Leads to what we call a transmission being WAY under filled . You say the squeal only occurs when the bike is in gear and the clutch engaged , correct ?
Dusty
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No . The reason for the question is that the nomenclature used in the manual is confusing . The final drive , or bevel box , is labeled transmission , and the transmission is labeled gearbox . Leads to what we call a transmission being WAY under filled . You say the squeal only occurs when the bike is in gear and the clutch engaged , correct ?
Dusty
Ah. I see. Okay, then no, definitely didn't touch the transmission either.
And yes, the noise only occurs when in gear.
Any idea what to fill it up with? Having a hard time tracking down fluid specs for my bike...
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Ah. I see. Okay, then no, definitely didn't touch the transmission either.
And yes, the noise only occurs when in gear.
Any idea what to fill it up with? Having a hard time tracking down fluid specs for my bike...
I think the owner's manual gives specific oil recommendations . Sorry , not really an expert on small blocks , we need Kev m or Pete Roper ,or Guzzisteve here . A search on WG should provide the needed info .
Oh , and yes , don't ride it until one of the smart guys here weighs in .
Dusty
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Did you happen to notice if the oil pressure warning light was on when the noise came about?
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All you want to know.
http://www.guzzitek.org/gb/ma_us_uk/750/V7Stone_Special_Racer_072012_Atelier%28GB%29.pdf
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Did you happen to notice if the oil pressure warning light was on when the noise came about?
Nope, no warning lights at all.
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Nope, no warning lights at all.
Ok, I was going to guess that perhaps the seal to the oil filter failed or slipped, then suffered a loss of oil pressure.
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You said you changed the oil at 5000 clicks and after the break-in period. Does that mean you changed the oil after break-in and then again at 5000 or just once at 5000?
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Thow-out bearing, add oil to the foot shifter transmission. I have seen low quantities from factory.
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You said you changed the oil at 5000 clicks and after the break-in period. Does that mean you changed the oil after break-in and then again at 5000 or just once at 5000?
5,000km was my second oil change after the initial one at 1,000km after break-in. So my bike has just under 6,000kms on it.
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Thow-out bearing, add oil to the foot shifter transmission. I have seen low quantities from factory.
Awesome. Thanks for the intel.
Just one more thing because every manual/shcematic I have found has said nothing about the gearbox:
Where is the oil fill hole? And is it 85w90, the same as the rear transmission/bevel?
I'm definitely not due for a gearbox/transmission oil change at only 6,000km, but if the factory levels were low this could explain it...
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Wasn't the transmission/gearbox oil part of the break in service?
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Wasn't the transmission/gearbox oil part of the break in service?
I would have thought so!
It's been over a year + 5,000km since then, but still. If the factory didn't fill it up all the way I would've expected that to be done at 1,000km for sure.
Also, I've never had this issue before up until I changed my oil yesterday. It seems like the two things should be related, but if it's the gearbox, that would be a complete coincidence.
-A
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Awesome. Thanks for the intel.
Just one more thing because every manual/shcematic I have found has said nothing about the gearbox:
Where is the oil fill hole? And is it 85w90, the same as the rear transmission/bevel?
I'm definitely not due for a gearbox/transmission oil change at only 6,000km, but if the factory levels were low this could explain it...
Gearbox is 1L of 85W90, bevel box is 170 mL of 85W140. Not good to mix up either oil type or quantity.
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Fill the rear drive thru the big level hole or top vent hole.
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Fill the rear drive thru the big level hole or top vent hole.
Yep, that I was able to find that out thanks to the guide you linked me (Cheers!)
But I'm more wondering about the gearbox itself. It doesn't seem to come up in that guide or elsewhere I've been looking so far.
@sib thanks for the quantities list!
-A
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Pete's advice to me on the old smallblock transmission was always just to drain it and fill with the measured proper amount through the fill plug (side of transmission, right behind the rear brake linkage if memory serves, partially hidden, sometimes easier to access if you remove or reposition the rear brake guard).
Fill it on its sidestand with the proper amount, don't worry about it being level with the plug or not.
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Pete's advice to me on the old smallblock transmission was always just to drain it and fill with the measured proper amount through the fill plug (side of transmission, right behind the rear brake linkage if memory serves, partially hidden, sometimes easier to access if you remove or reposition the rear brake guard).
Fill it on its sidestand with the proper amount, don't worry about it being level with the plug or not.
Perfect. I actually just had a look and know exactly what you're talking about. She is indeed looking a little dry in there so I guess that's most likely the problem after all. I'll pick up some 85w90 after Labour Day and set her right.
Thanks a lot for the guidance, you guys!
-A
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Drain out what's in there and measure it. If it's only got 170ml in because the people who did the break in service got the volumes wrong the gearbox will be scrap.
Pete
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Without dying in the arse? Yes, probably, but all the case hardening on the teeth would be damaged and the screeching is the bearings under the pinions giving up the ghost.
Pete
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Good to know .
Dusty
Not good for the OP to know.. Jeeee sus. Not yet *another* under filled transmission by some "technician" that cross threads your spark plugs? :evil:
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Crap, does this raise the question whether or not the OP should bring it back to a dealer (selling or other) to have them document the drain and refill? And potentially start the warranty paperwork?
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Crap, does this raise the question whether or not the OP should bring it back to a dealer (selling or other) to have them document the drain and refill? And potentially start the warranty paperwork?
Hell YES.
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If the dealer did the oil change and didn't put the right amount of oil in the gearbox, I would bet they will get a refusal for warranty coverage and have to eat the repair themselves. Ugly.
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I've had this problem presented a couple of times at my shop. Last time was a Nevada, was serviced by a shop down the coast, they refused to do anything point blank. He ended up having to eat it. We got a second hand box from Pinwall.
Pete
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If the dealer did the oil change and didn't put the right amount of oil in the gearbox, I would bet they will get a refusal for warranty coverage and have to eat the repair themselves. Ugly.
That works suggest another dealer be involved to document it for the law suit against the original dealer.
And, if the dealer is acting as official agent, then Piaggio NA should be named as well.
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This does not sound good. This is the reason why I have taken a vested interest in doing my own work. I hope we're wrong.
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You are aware there are two drain plugs on the engine oil sump? One in front, and one in back that's obscured by the evap cannister. You didn't accidentally drain the tranny thinking that was the rear engine sump plug? It's too much of a coincidence given your recent oil change.
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If needs be I'd get a couple of unimpeachable witnesses and drain the gearbox while videoing it.
I had a Cali 1100 'Aniversary' edition that came to me for its first service, when it's gearbox drain plug was removed nothing came out, so when I drained the bevelbox I took a vid. Nothing came out of it either.
Owner called the shop he'd bought it from, they called me and said it couldn't of left their shop like that and anyway it was a warranty issue so it was my problem. Things went downhill rapidly from there but eventually they sent an apprentice up from Melbourne with a ute and took it away. I was asked to "Just put oil in it and see what happens." No way in the world was that gunna happen.
After it was eventually returned to the owner the bloke who worked on it called me and said "It didn't look too bad." I have no idea if they replaced anything or even did anything. Scared the shit out of me. Gladly it hasn't been back to my shop because I don't want to ever lay a spanner on it, as soon as I do it becomes 'My' problem. f*** that!
Pete
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When entering into a dealer agreement does Piagio certify the prowess of the dealer techs? "Factory trained" means distributor trained or, does the dealer certify the wrenches have been trained by a responsible party? Try to be nice but firm with the dealer. The first time they try to blame you or anyone else would be the last time I deal with them in any way. Point is dealer, in this case, apparently did this with poor to no prep but in my view Piagio is ultimately responsible for making this right. They will help you. They must!
Best,
Peter
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It is a training put on by Piaggio to familiarize the techs w/their product. Usually 2-5 days depending on which products the dealer is selling. It does not teach you HOW to be a mechanic or give you ethics.
It also costs $, the main reason why dealers don't send anyone, or the owner of the shop goes not the wrenches.
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You are aware there are two drain plugs on the engine oil sump? One in front, and one in back that's obscured by the evap cannister. You didn't accidentally drain the tranny thinking that was the rear engine sump plug? It's too much of a coincidence given your recent oil change.
Shades of Mr. Nevada.
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You are aware there are two drain plugs on the engine oil sump? One in front, and one in back that's obscured by the evap cannister. You didn't accidentally drain the tranny thinking that was the rear engine sump plug? It's too much of a coincidence given your recent oil change.
Yes, I'm aware and I'm 99.9% sure I didn't drain the tranny by accident. It's in a different location and not directly connected to the sump. I found it afterwards and it wasn't the one I unscrewed.
It's low, and I'l drain and replace. It couldn't have been that bad because of the nearly 5,000kms without issue. I highly doubt 170mL ended up in there. I would've noticed that immediately.
Thanks, gents.
-A
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Yes, I'm aware and I'm 99.9% sure I didn't drain the tranny by accident. It's in a different location and not directly connected to the sump. I found it afterwards and it wasn't the one I unscrewed.
It's low, and I'l drain and replace. It couldn't have been that bad because of the nearly 5,000kms without issue. I highly doubt 170mL ended up in there. I would've noticed that immediately.
Thanks, gents.
-A
How would you have noticed it?
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When entering into a dealer agreement does Piagio certify the prowess of the dealer techs? "Factory trained" means distributor trained or, does the dealer certify the wrenches have been trained by a responsible party? Try to be nice but firm with the dealer. The first time they try to blame you or anyone else would be the last time I deal with them in any way. Point is dealer, in this case, apparently did this with poor to no prep but in my view Piagio is ultimately responsible for making this right. They will help you. They must!
Best,
Peter
I've looked into doing local, 3rd-party work for a number of remote companies. Many of them 'certify' their subcontractors by having the candidate pay for drug/criminal/deadbeat/financial/background checks. If you pay for and pass those you qualify. Technical expertise is often in the form of an 'open book' test on-line where the answers are literally spelled out for you. Sometimes technical skills are not even mentioned.
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Listen to Pete's experience.
If he says it could have survived 5k that low, and we've definitely seen "dealers" screw that up, make sure you have some witnesses and VIDEO THE DRAINING and MEASURING to make sure your warranty isn't jeopardized.
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Listen to Pete's experience.
If he says it could have survived 5k that low, and we've definitely seen "dealers" screw that up, make sure you have some witnesses and VIDEO THE DRAINING and MEASURING to make sure your warranty isn't jeopardized.
My bad, missed the part where he mentioned it could have survived 5,000km that low.
I've got my hands on some proper gearbox oil and will set it right this evening.
Thank God I was close to home when the noise started. Probably only travelled a max of 2km to get her back to safety.
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Have the bike trailered to another dealer, any dealer certified by the state to do repairs and have it drained there with video running.
If Moto Guzzi authorizes a dealer to sell and service, it doesn't matter one bit who got trained or who read the manual while sitting on the toilet, what matters is the reasonable expectation of a reasonable person buying the product and purchasing the service. MG is on the hook and everyone can dance until midnight, the bike gets attention and repaired. Who pays for it is irrelevant so long as the customer does not pay.
If someone suspects a failure and the bike is under warranty, digging around yourself is not smart.
It is possible for an owner, having a bike under warranty, to screw up things so much that they end up owning a mess too.
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My bad, missed the part where he mentioned it could have survived 5,000km that low.
I've got my hands on some proper gearbox oil and will set it right this evening.
Thank God I was close to home when the noise started. Probably only travelled a max of 2km to get her back to safety.
If you add oil and don't document the current level, you may be on the hook of the transmission fails suddenly out of warranty.
Wasn't Pete of the opinion you should push to get it replaced NOW if it is low in order to prevent s possible catastrophic failure in use later?
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If you add oil and don't document the current level, you may be on the hook of the transmission fails suddenly out of warranty.
Wasn't Pete of the opinion you should push to get it replaced NOW if it is low in order to prevent s possible catastrophic failure in use later?
Yes, he was.
But upon further inspection, I think whoever asked me earlier if I mistakenly drained the gearbox oil instead of my sump was entirely correct. That's what I did. Because I'm a n00b. I went to drain the box and it was empty so that was definitely the issue. Rookie mistake! Those empty valves are very close together! :tongue:
I filled it up with a full litre of 85w90, took her out, and the noise is totally gone + the bike runs exactly as it did before.
Thanks again for the troubleshooting help, gentlemen. I learned some stuff!
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Oh goodness! Another reason to know the difference in smell between engine oil and trans oil. Don't tell Luigi as even he'd scoff at this one.
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Oh goodness! Another reason to know the difference in smell between engine oil and trans oil. Don't tell Luigi as even he'd scoff at this one.
And the taste. I hate gearbox oil in my salad, engine oil, not so bad.
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Well, maybe you'll be lucky and it won't be an expensive lesson.. :smiley: