Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: MGPilot on September 16, 2015, 03:26:54 AM
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I currently have a 2016 Stone. Like it & will keep it.
But have been considering getting a second bike for longer highway runs--especially in colder weather (which we have plenty of in the Pacific Northwest).
I used to own a 2005 R1200RT and liked it. Sort of sterile, but worked well. A 2011 is for sale locally at a reasonable price. But BMW is not without quality issues, often related to electronic complexities.
I'd like to consider a Norge.
Have there been any particular watershed years where design updates seem significantly preferable? (For example, the BMW in 2010 made a few major updates, making a 2010-2011 significantly better than the 2005-2007's. I see the 8V came out in 2011, not sure how important that update is.)
From reading different threads, it would be important to:
- just ride one to see how it feels.
- It seems that the BMW offers better weather protection--but at a cost. See how much heat from the cylinders/air surging around the windscreen seem to me.
- check to see if oil pump issues apply
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Any advice? Things or years to look for? (For example, one review of the 2007 Norge complained that you had to remove much of the lower fairing just to check the oil.)
Thanks.
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Roller tappets introduced in late 2012 seem to be a must have, but previous models of the 8 valve motor can be re fitted with rollers. There has been much written here on the tappet failure subject, I would do a little research if your considering a pre 2012. Good luck. dave
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2 valve Norges built during Oct-Nov of 06 could have the exploding oil pump. Other than that, the 2 V Norge is a fine mile eater. As mentioned if looking at a 4V, get a roller engine. I'd personally take a Norge over a Beemer any day.. :boxing: The local Beemer people that I know buy a new bike when theirs runs out of warranty. :evil: :smiley: Just sayin..
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When I was trying to make the same decision a few years ago I had chosen a Beemer, but, that deal fell through and I went a different route.
If considering a beemer visit their forums and see what issues they have. Some are big, some not so big. The one to be careful of is the final drive. If it had the sealed unit then make sure the owner changed the lube on a regular basis. The idea of a permanently sealed unit did not work well for them.
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Yep, check out i-BMW dot com, it's a pretty good forum.
For what it's worth: I recently bought a 2010 K1300GT for reasons similar to yours. I love it. Yes, it is a sewing machine... but a solid, 160 hp, face-melting-acceleration-from-75-to-100-mph sewing machine. And my passenger finds it very comfortable.
I bought it from a private seller. The local dealer had two items immediately fixed under recall (switchgear and wheel flange) and now all is well.
In case you were interested in K bikes, is all...
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I think the RT is more of a two up Full-On Touring Bike while the Norge is more Sport Tourer. Just my impressions riding both bikes (but different model years than you are considering).
It looks like costs for maintainability and reliability are sorta expensive crapshoots for either one I am sorry to say. I suppose I would look at cost, condition, maintenance records and expected trouble spots. I would guess the Beemer costs a lot more to purchase.
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Norge is a mighty-fine mile-muncher.
Bigger and heavier than I like for everyday use, but really nice for travelling.
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Are roller tappets needed/adviseable for a pre-8V engine?
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"Sewing machine" was not entirely a slam. My V7 Stone has more character than my older R1200RT--or R100R. Yet, having something that does its job quietly, reliably and well is not bad. (Yet....I'm not ready to look at Japanese competitors although they may excel at consistent tolerances.)
Part of my challenge is that there are a lot more RT's than Norge's; and Beemer's have multiple forums to express their woe's. So, it's a bit easier to document RT issues.
But any used machine will be a product of its engineering, random chance and the way it's been treated. May end up searching private owners who've taken care of and taken care to document their servicing rather than "Yep...it's shiny and it passed our inspection" -- but may not have had the brake fluid flushed in 4 years.
Hm.
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Are roller tappets needed/adviseable for a pre-8V engine?
No. Totally different valve actuation system. 8v is a 'hi-cam' similar to the first gen Beemer oilhead engine, (one chain-driven camshaft in each head with very short 'pushrods' that actuate forked rockers. The 2v big block has one camshaft located in the 'vee' area of the block, with long pushrods actuating the valves. I've been riding my 2v 1200 Sport for 5 years and 60k without the slightest sign of any issues. A rugged lump that to my way of thinking has more than enough oomph for the 1200 Sport. The 2v Norge is (I think) the identical engine ...... maybe some difference in ECU mapping and diff throttle body size. Not sure about map and TB size.
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Are you looking new or used?
My 2012 Norge is the coolest fared bike I have ever rode behind. Great in high heat summer riding not so much when cold. The heated Corbin seat is a real toaster though. My Matris fork kit and rear shock have really helped the bike ride more plush but very well behaved. The Norge for me was very intuitive to ride even at slow speed.
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A 2008 or 09 2v is a great bike, very simple and rock solid. It will go forever with basic attention, and I love mine. Not as much power as the BMW, but I like the handling much better, especially after sorting it out.
If looking at an 8v bike, then I would just be sure it's a bike with the roller tappets. That means late 2012 or newer unless it's been updated by the current owner.
Both versions can have a cruise control fitted if you're handy - there are some good how-to pages out there.
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I test rode a 2007 Norge and bought a 2015 Norge. I'm shorter than most riders (I suspect) and, as such, it fits me just fine but it is an unusual riding position so you'll certainly need to try one. I found that after less than an hour on the 2007 model I was wishing the handlebars were a bit higher and closer - that's been done on the later (8V) models. I've had a couple of BMWs in the past and on paper they probably beat the Norge but they don't have the same character.
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In comparing bikes, there will always be something one dies better than the other and vice versa.
The Norge is a very capable bike for ST riding. Its a compact bike so if you are just running long distances mostly, make sure the ergos are to your liking. While you can change seats and raise the bars, the basic ergos remain, just make sure they fit. If you are used to a lot of moving around room, it will be a change.
The 8V over the earlier model but that is my bias. If you are buying used, I'd make sure it has the rollers and if its an update, just pass, find one that has it from the factory, there are too many available to wonder what else was floating around before the swap. Figure on model years 2013 and forward and you're safe on that end, then it is just making sure maintenance was done.
The 8V can run down the road at any speed you can manage and you'll find its practically a no shifter. 3rd will handle almost everything and 6th takes care of the rest. It will pull smoothly from 2k until you decide to upshift.
I use the MG gel seat and really like it. Its broader and flatter than stock and at 5'10" with a 32" inseam, I get flat footed at stops, nice since with a full tank you do feel all it's weight when not moving, but that is the exception in riding.
Fuel economy varies according to right wrist management.
Handling is good and before investing in suspension updates, go through the stock suspension really well and fiddle with tire pressures within the safe range first, you can probably get it where you want it.
Power delivery is linear, locomotive type, no flat spots, no rushes at certain RPMs, just twist and go. Want faster, twist more.
The stock tires are really good, they work as well as they need to.
The Norge, will easily capable of coast to coast runs, isn't my first choice for that if the run was mostly freeways, instead it works best for the less traveled roads that keep you awake and the passenger more than a bobble head accessory.
The Norge is solid, as a total package works really well and invites you to do more than climb on and go along for the ride, you need to lead.
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Just to clarify some things on the 2V Norge
1)Never heard of any issues ever with the 2V tappets, and by now there are lots of these with big mileage on them. Mine has 50k miles.
2)The issue with the oil pumps has to do with build date, as stamped on the plate just under the very front of the tank up by the steering head, not model year per se. Almost all of the failures were built 10/06-11/06. Outside of that range, no matter what the model year, too rare to waste time worrying about.
3)About the oil change/dipstick think, that got corrected part way through the 07 model year. Any bikes with the upgrade have a so called porthole on the left lower fairing filled with a big black plug. From there on out, problem solved. Many of the earlier bikes have the Teo Lamers or other aftermarket solution, or maybe the owner made his own porthole with a hole saw. Would seem to be pretty easy to do if you are careful about it. The newer dipstick that is part of the OEM solution is really nice, works really well. No need to take anything off, maybe undo a couple of bolts on the fairing to make it easier to put new oil in, not even that to just check.
4)The 2V motor has few if any reliability issues (outside of 10-11/06) plenty of grunt, plenty of HP for me & many others. Even more so if you spring for the Guzzitech ECU reflash/PCV/autotune mods, even better if the prior owner has already done them. If you want the big 4V top end rush, then for sure get a roller tappet motor, or maybe a flat tappet motor with the roller kit that you know was done early before anything bad happened-and priced accordingly.
5)As for ergonomics, this of course is personal, and requires a test ride. Like TobyJug, I am short (5'5"), and like he at first felt the bars on my 07 were a little forward and/or low. However, before I got around to doing anything about it like any of the aftermarket bar risers, I got used to it, it became a non issue. As for the Guzzi gel seat, I got it because it is supposed to be lower. If it is, it isn't much lower. However, it certainly is more comfortable than the stock seat, I like it a lot. Just be sure that in hot, sunny weather you put your helmet or something where you sit when you park it. Otherwise it becomes a bun warmer.
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The big update for the Norge was for 2012, and they took care of a lot of issues that owners had been complaining about. These included bar position, angle or instruments (for better viewing), new bodywork with much-improved management of heat, etc. Although I wouldn't avoid a 2V Norge (I did actually buy one), if I had the choice, I would go for a roller tappet 8V.
Good problem to have! :grin:
Shaun
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Quote from smdi:
The big update for the Norge was for 2012
It was 2011 models on.
GliderJohn
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The new map insures there is no big top end rush on the 8V Norge, the rush starts when the starts switch is pressed and the power delivery is linear from idle skyward.
If the 8V Norge exhibits a power rush, please check the state of tune, its probably off. The thing is wonderfully smooth and in 6th from even low rpms, pulls and just keeps going until discretion takes over. Lasting thanks to Beetle and Pete as you buy a Norge and then discover what it is really like because of their efforts.
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Plus one on the ergonomics. I really liked the 2008 RT I used to have. The ergonomics fit me very well. I rode Col Hagan's Norge a bit, and found that it just did not fit me as well. FWIW, maintenance is expensive but I had no issues with mine, rode it all over the country one up and two up, weather protection is excellent, and no, it's not as fast as the FJR the Goddess rides...
Those of us who have been here a while may recall Zirk Phitting's scimitar-equipped "Deer-Splitter" photoshop mashup from several years ago. Anyone know if there's a bighorn sheep model available...?
And yes, bones do eventually heal and the neurological stuff does go away, but dang, it takes a long time.
Regards,
C
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Quote from smdi:
It was 2011 models on.
GliderJohn
Thanks for the correction. I had thought it was in late 2011 for 2012 models.
Shaun
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If it was my decision to make, it wouldn't be on spec sheets or anecdotal reliability stories. It would be based on which fit me better and caused the greater emotional response from me.
I think both bikes are capable of both long-haul touring and short-hop riding.
Personally, I can make either bike fit me -- but I far prefer the looks of the Norge. And that would be my choice.
In the real world, however, both bikes are more size and weight than I want to muscle around these days but that's another topic that's been around the block a few times lately here on WG.
Best,
Carlo
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I prefer the 8V Norge to the 4V in every way. As to the Norge vs the R1200RT, they are both great looking bikes. The Norge is definitely sleeker all the way around. It is also easier to throw around in city traffic. The beemer is wider and offers more protection from the elements. If you have a 50 mile daily commute, or plan to put Goldwing type miles on the bike, there is a lot to be said for the BMW. To me, the Norge is a sport-tourer that still feels like a motorcycle. I get just enough wind to stay cool in Summer riding, and I have enough protection for cross-state rides in cold weather or rain. However, it doesn't have cruise control, stereo, etc. I do mostly city riding and shoot out of town on weekends. For that purpose, the Norge is a no brainer for me. If I did mostly extended rides with occasional city riding, I'd have to consider the RT.
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Perhaps I'm somewhat more qualified to respond on this post than most. I have a 2012 Norge GT and a 2014 R1200RT. Both of these bikes are good bikes and to a large extent the preference is based on the person and not the relative merits of the bikes. The Norge is for the person that wants to be more a part of nature and the machine. It has a wonderful visceral feel to it and enables you to be one with it. The RT is more for the person that needs some isolation from the environment and the riding experience. It has gadgets galore, abundant power and handles like a dream. In terms of the machines themselves, there are nits to pick here and there with each of them. They are both fine bikes. I have been threatening to get rid of one of mine but haven't because I know I'll miss it. The best advice I can give is to either do like I did and get them both or go ride and make your own choice. It's that simple and hard.
Happy hunting!
Eric
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I have seen some low mile '08 and '09 Norges for sale for a very good price.
I have the '08 with 27,000 miles. no problems to speak of except for ones of my own making...
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I prefer to work on my bikes and the new BMW's just don't seem to be in that line of thinking. I know someone who owns a new BMW, he changed the oil in the bike and had to take it to the dealer to get them to turn off the service light and they required $50 to turn off that light. Sorry, but that is unacceptable to me.
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In comparing bikes, there will always be something one dies better than the other and vice versa.
I'm pretty sure "dies" was a typo - and should have been "does." HOWEVER... since you mentioned it...
I belong to BMWSportTouring Forum (I am currently parting out a 2000 R1100RT). Like all forums, you hear a lot about the problems with bikes as owners are trying to fix them. There are some worries on the 1200RTs and other newer models regarding final drives, electronics, etc.
Seems the BMWs "die" differently than the Moto Guzzis.
From what I can tell, the 1100RTs and 1150RTs are pretty solid (maybe a bit less trouble than the 1200RTs) - and low-mileage examples can be found for much lower prices than the 1200RTs.
Having had the (mostly positive) BMW experience), I'd go with the Norge - for many of the reasons already mentioned by others. For my situation (not necessarily yours), I'd probably go with the Stelvio so I could include some off-road adventuring.
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I prefer to work on my bikes and the new BMW's just don't seem to be in that line of thinking. I know someone who owns a new BMW, he changed the oil in the bike and had to take it to the dealer to get them to turn off the service light and they required $50 to turn off that light. Sorry, but that is unacceptable to me.
While you don't have to, MG recommends that you take the Norge into a dealer just to top off the oil if needed. What you must do, can do and should do are three different things.
You can get a diagnostic computer access tool for the BMW that let's you turn it off. No biggie.
I wouldn't discount the BMW because of turning off a service warning light. We've passed the diag code around which let's individuals turn off the service icon for the Norge otherwise we might be in the same boat.
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While you don't have to, MG recommends that you take the Norge into a dealer just to top off the oil if needed. What you must do, can do and should do are three different things.
You can get a diagnostic computer access tool for the BMW that let's you turn it off. No biggie.
I wouldn't discount the BMW because of turning off a service warning light. We've passed the diag code around which let's individuals turn off the service icon for the Norge otherwise we might be in the same boat.
Yes, you can buy the GS-911 to turn off the service code for $400 bucks. I can turn off the service code on my Norge for: $0 bucks.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OC1FFGM?tag=viglink22257-20
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Yes, you can buy the GS-911 to turn off the service code for $400 bucks. I can turn off the service code on my Norge for: $0 bucks.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OC1FFGM?tag=viglink22257-20
And owners of a 2011 Norge can buy rollers too or pay to have them put in at around 3 times that.
Its a service indicator, not too hard to find someone with the tool for the RT. Still, a service indicator is hardly a reason to choose one bike over another. Just how many people have cars for which the service indicator in one because they change their own oil?
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And owners of a 2011 Norge can buy rollers too or pay to have them put in at around 3 times that.
Its a service indicator, not too hard to find someone with the tool for the RT. Still, a service indicator is hardly a reason to choose one bike over another. Just how many people have cars for which the service indicator in one because they change their own oil?
Yes, you can buy the GS-911 to turn off the service code for $400 bucks. I can turn off the service code on my Norge for: $0 bucks.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OC1FFGM?tag=viglink22257-20
I don't know anyone with the tool. <shrug> I agree with Blackcat. 50 bux to turn it off is asinine. Takes what, 30 seconds?
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Maybe ignorance is bliss in the motorcycle world. I have been riding regularly since 1979 and have only owned three bikes. My first was a 77 Suzuki GS400. Next was a 75 T-3 LAPD that I bought in 89. Wow! What a step up. Next and current bike (still have the T-3) is a Norge 8V. Wow! What a step up. I don't have much to compare to so that may be why I so like my Norge. Works for me so far anyway.
GliderJohn
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Any bike is a good bike. From the owner of a yesteryear 2 stroke that still burns to the bike sold yesterday out of the showroom, it ain't about what you're riding, it is that you are riding.
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Ride em both and see what you like. I have a 4V and 8V Norge in the garage, a buddy rides an R1200RT and we swap out occasionally. They are all great bikes, I just like Guzzis better. The 4V Norge has great low rpm characteristics (thumping torque), the 8V has greater HP and will run like a scalded dog. I really like the BMW telelever suspension. You can't go wrong going either way. Great touring bikes all.
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I had decided to buy a new 2014 Norge GT but before I pulled the trigger, I found a 2009 BMW R1200RT that looks like it just came out of the crate (only 8000 miles). I've owned and performed my own maintenance on several Beemer Oilheads so I can also service this one. The price was right (at a Suzuki dealer due to being traded on a big ATV vehicle) so we agreed on a price, late Saturday afternoon. The dealership is closed today so unless I uncover some compelling reason not to buy this bike, I'll go to the bank and get a cashiers check tomorrow morning and pick it up. I really wanted a Norge but after perusing threads where people have bought new Norges, only to have the bikes shut down and leave them stranded, I decided that I didn't want to to get involved with hauling a bike back and forth on my trailer to Riders Hill (2.5 hours each way) on a regular basis (been there; done that).
I'm keeping my V7 Classic (love the little V7) but I also wanted a bigger displacement, full fairing bike so I could ride more in colder weather. As others have said, both are great bikes. The bottom line for me was that my nearest dealer is further away than I'm comfortable with to fix what Guzzi isn't addressing correctly at the factory level with too many stories that I've read. If something changes my mind re. buying the Beemer before tomorrow, I'll be looking for a well sorted, 8 valve Norge that has all the kinks worked out.
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And owners of a 2011 Norge can buy rollers too or pay to have them put in at around 3 times that.
Its a service indicator, not too hard to find someone with the tool for the RT. Still, a service indicator is hardly a reason to choose one bike over another. Just how many people have cars for which the service indicator in one because they change their own oil?
All I'm saying is that I prefer to work on my own bikes and the new BMW's do no seem to be owner service friendly. Having to go back to the dealer for service is not a plus for me and there is one within a mile from my house which is also a Guzzi dealer. Plus, there is the cost. Yeah the new BMW's can contact Mars from the handle bar toggle switch but do I really need to contact Mars from my bike?
And a Google search of "problems with 2011 R1200RT" reveals issues that are similar to niggling Guzzi problems such as starter switches going bad and stranding someone on the BRP, windshield's going down and not going back up, overheating, non-starting at high elevations, final drives leaking. Sounds familiar......and expensive if you always have to bring the bike to the dealer.
And changing the rollers, when you add up the need to do dealer maintenance on a bike those rollers costs seem small. And I'd do it myself so that makes it even less of a burden and I don't need to find someone to turn off the warning lights.