Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vasco DG on September 21, 2015, 01:47:25 AM
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Loaded up the first factory upgrade for the V7-II to Clancy's bike a couple of weeks ago. Don't immediately know the map number, anyway, it runs like a bag of shit.
I got word today that the factory has issued another upgrade today, so any dealers should go in and upgrade PADS. I'll be doing that tonight and then trying the new map tomorrow. If that doesn't work I'll be warranting the proxy ECM.... GRRRRRRRRR!
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Do these upgrades also apply to 2013-2015 pre -II V7s ???
I need to have the map updated on my 2014, but don't need any bags of shite.
Map numbers would be appreciated.
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Loaded up the first factory upgrade for the V7-II to Clancy's bike a couple of weeks ago. Don't immediately know the map number, anyway, it runs like a bag of shit.
I got word today that the factory has issued another upgrade today, so any dealers should go in and upgrade PADS. I'll be doing that tonight and then trying the new map tomorrow. If that doesn't work I'll be warranting the proxy ECM.... GRRRRRRRRR!
Must be something different about the way air swirls into the throttle body below the equator. Up here, my V7-II runs beautifully right out of the crate. No need or desire for a map update.
I'd like to make a suggestion: Change the spark plug gaps. I've convinced myself that there's an error in the manuals regarding the spark plug gap. The books say 0.6-0.7 mm. Mine came from the factory with the gap that NGK recommends and supplies the plugs with, 0.9 mm. After some experimenting, I decided that my bike runs significantly better at 0.9 mm than at 0.6-0.7 mm.
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Hmmm... I always use .7mm gap, but will try the .9mm gap at my bike's first service.
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Do these upgrades also apply to 2013-2015 pre -II V7s ???
I need to have the map updated on my 2014, but don't need any bags of shite.
Map numbers would be appreciated.
Mike,
That updated map # I sent you is a big improvement in the superior '13-'14 models.
Get it done!
Cam
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They checked the TPS and the stepper motor, reset everything and sent me home without a fix.
I'm under the impression from Pete that these things (well at least the first version of the V7 1TB) don't have stepper motors?
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I'm under the impression from Pete that these things (well at least the first version of the V7 1TB) don't have stepper motors?
They do have stepper motors. Here's a blurb from the Magneti-Marelli web site:
Mechatronic Integrated Unit (MIU)
Mechatronic system designed to support the “traditional” architecture and made by integrating the following components in the same unit:
• Mechanic throttle body with diameters from 26 to 38mm and contactless potentiometer
• stepper motor for minimum control management
• air temperature sensor
• intake conduit pressure sensor
• control unit made using high-density SMD technology
• integrated immobilizer system
The MIU can withstand operating temperatures from–30°C to +90°C under complete operational conditions and from -40°C to +105°C in the heat stroke and it is intended for installation on the engine by means of rubber sleeve in order to reduce the levels of vibrations.
The connections to the external input/output are carried out by means of a single connector with 34 ways.
The control unit pilots up to 2 injection channels and 2 independent ignition channels, DC-motor for throttle movement and for those versions that require it, the traction control management is integrated at the logic level. Mixing is controlled by means of 2 lambda probes of the heated ON/OFF type.
Engine management can be selected by the rider through two different “mappings”.
The MIU is designed for application to single-cylinder engines, but can also be used on twin-cylinder engines with single throttle body supply.
The system integrates all the main components of the injection system, ensuring a significant reduction in the number of components to be managed during the assembly and final testing phase of the engines/vehicles, with clear benefits in terms of production flexibility.
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Mike,
That updated map # I sent you is a big improvement in the superior '13-'14 models.
Get it done!
Cam
I have that number, and plan to have the folks in Tulsa load that one, when I have a chance to ride over there.
Just want to make sure they don't load a "bad" one! Like telling me the latest one is "better"!
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They do have stepper motors. Here's a blurb from the Magneti-Marelli web site:
Mechatronic Integrated Unit (MIU)
Mechatronic system designed to support the “traditional†architecture and made by integrating the following components in the same unit:
• Mechanic throttle body with diameters from 26 to 38mm and contactless potentiometer
• stepper motor for minimum control management
• air temperature sensor
• intake conduit pressure sensor
• control unit made using high-density SMD technology
• integrated immobilizer system
The MIU can withstand operating temperatures from–30°C to +90°C under complete operational conditions and from -40°C to +105°C in the heat stroke and it is intended for installation on the engine by means of rubber sleeve in order to reduce the levels of vibrations.
The connections to the external input/output are carried out by means of a single connector with 34 ways.
The control unit pilots up to 2 injection channels and 2 independent ignition channels, DC-motor for throttle movement and for those versions that require it, the traction control management is integrated at the logic level. Mixing is controlled by means of 2 lambda probes of the heated ON/OFF type.
Engine management can be selected by the rider through two different “mappingsâ€.
The MIU is designed for application to single-cylinder engines, but can also be used on twin-cylinder engines with single throttle body supply.
The system integrates all the main components of the injection system, ensuring a significant reduction in the number of components to be managed during the assembly and final testing phase of the engines/vehicles, with clear benefits in terms of production flexibility.
Where'd you find that, here:
http://www.magnetimarelli.com/business_areas/powertrain/motorbikes/ecu
I wish the listing was specific to the Guzzi application in the V7. I mean obviously everything in that description isn't applicable to the V7, such as:
Engine management can be selected by the rider through two different “mappingsâ€.
So it's definitely a generic piece.
I would think it would be accurate, but I wonder why Pete seemed convinced after attending training there wasn't a stepper motor:
Kev, when I say 'Semi RBW' it's just my descriptor but it is fairly accurate.
The way it works is that the cables go to the MUI3G unit and when you twist the throttle it will have the effect of opening the throttle plate but only a small amount, say 5%. This is to enable one to 'Limp Home' if the demand sensor mechanism has a cow.
Really though any time the throttle is used and even at idle the plate is controlled electronically. That's the reason when you first start a single TB model some of them tend to cough and surge a bit. It's the throttle plate moving trying to maintain a constant idle by varying the air throughput, no stepper on the MUI3G.
I just wish the Guzzi manuals went into some of the operations of the unit. That would have been nice to get a more definitive answer from them.
<shrugs>
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I just wish people would quit derailing threads.
Yes, it sucks if a conversation doesn't stay only rigidly inline with a single topic and explores related subjects.
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Back on track, the "good map" that Cam turned me onto is: 352BV738.
That applies to pre -II bikes. I don't know if maps are different for the -II bikes.
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Back on track, the "good map" that Cam turned me onto is: 352BV738.
That applies to pre -II bikes. I don't know if maps are different for the -II bikes.
This is the map that I have fairly recently had installed by Portland Moto Guzzi on my 2013 V7 Special and it works really well.
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Back on track, the "good map" that Cam turned me onto is: 352BV738.
That applies to pre -II bikes. I don't know if maps are different for the -II bikes.
That was the software update that was installed on my '13 Stone in November '14 and it worked really well. I don't now what software number my '16 Stone has, but it works well. I doubt it is the same number, because the number refers to the whole software package, not just the map, and the V7-II's presumably have added software, to accommodate the ABS and TC systems.
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MUIG3 doesn't have a separate stepper. It may use an air over idle system but idle itself, judging from the way the engine behaves, would seem to be spark controlled. At least it behaves identically to the Cali. This is I think the cause of the idle surge rather than movement of the throttle plate at idle as I'd first assumed. Needless to say what we are told by the factory is minimal and we have to work most of this stuff out by deductin. It's very frustrating.
Maps for the V7 and V7-II are different and not interchangeable. The map upgrade for the earlier non ABS/TC bikes addresses some of the cold start issues and works well. It's only this new map for the II that has caused an issue.
Pete
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The
V7 > 20XX MUI3 ecu 3523V702 ??
V7 > 2012 MUI3 ecu 3523V7J1 Dry generator japan 11/04/2014
V7 > 2012 MUI3 ecu 352BV738 Dry generator 11/04/2014
V7 > 2014 MUI3 ecu 352BV737 generator in oil 11/04/2014
V7-II 4533V740 stock
V7-II 4533V795 Bad
V7-II 4533V796 released 18/09/2015 > latest Ok
So now we have newer maps? Please read the numbers so we know what map we are talking about.
Ask the dealer what map was before and after update. Or look with guzzidiag.
Here in this picture, found in other topic, the left down 4th line is map ID, 3523V702
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b457/kdiciero99/Screen%20Shot%202015-09-18%20at%205.43.19%20PM_zpsfm4ei1dq.png)
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Paul,
Remember that 2014 USA models had the dry alternator.
2015 USA models got the wet alternator.
So, there is some overlap in our discussion. I'm in The USA with a 2014 V7 Special, which has a dry alternator.
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Paul,
Remember that 2014 USA models had the dry alternator.
2015 USA models got the wet alternator.
So, there is some overlap in our discussion. I'm in The USA with a 2014 V7 Special, which has a dry alternator.
it's just USA is always one year behind. Then things fit. When was yours made exactly? If you don't know pm me your vin or enginenumber
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it's just USA is always one year behind. Then things fit. When was yours made exactly? If you don't know pm me your vin or enginenumber
I'm away from the bike, but I think it was July 2013. I'll PM you the VIN code, though.
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The
352BV738 V7- MY12-14 (USA) (dry stator)
352BV737 V7- MY 2015 (USA) (oil bath stator- new stator inside timing
cover)
came out November 2014 as update over PADS, at what time they got into production line??
They had:
-Improved start consent signal management;
-Improved idle management.
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PADS updates come out fairly regularly and tend to actually go out on a Sunday as they become available here on Monday! Who know why? You update by connecting to the web, the tooling detects there is an update and asks if you want to download it. You have to choose to download it. It doesn't do it automatically.
Pete
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Latest map release for V7-II is 4533V796 released 18/09/2015
Pete
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My bike ran great out of the crate.
It was only after the new (previous) map was loaded that things went to shit.
I'm heading out now to have the latest map installed.
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First map update was 4533V795 DO NOT LOAD UP THIS MAP! this is the one that turned Craig's bike into a huge turd!
We've just slipped the 4533V796 map in, the latest release, and you can hear it's happier already. The biggest problem was on cold start with the 795. It was awful. Craig also had a no-start situation in Sydney last weekend, outside Motocicolo, most embarrassing! :grin: Anyway, a quick trip up the hill and preliminary reports are that the bike has returned to its previous smooth running self. We'll have to wait for a cold start to find out if it's done away with the start up silliness.
Anyway, if you visit your dealer make sure if they are going to upload a new map it is the 796 and NOT the 795 update.
Pete
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Thanks Pete! :thumb:
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Thanks, Pete. As soon as my bike is on two wheels again (the forks are off getting cartridges), I'll give the dealer a call.
Craig might be interested in the Adeani cartridges down the track. Where and 'emmuch?
Pete
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Yes, very much. If I can't get it to run right with OEM software, I'm going to have to go visit the Rexxer guy and I really don't want to.
While I'm sure someone competent using Rexxer Pro will be able to build a good map for the MUIG3 it will have to be bike specific WRT the controller as the wet and dry alt bikes require difference maps, (I can't work out why that is but it is.) and the V7-II will definitely need another map built with different parameters due to the inclusion of ABS/TC.
I'm hoping to be able to use Christian's new software to *Sniff* the MUIG3 map upload on an air cooled alt V7 later this week. We tried an earlier version on Craig's V7-II with the first map update but is saved the wrong type of file. Once that is done it will hopefully be a short hop to being able to build our own maps and circumvent all the government imposed silliness. If he can mimic the results achieved for the W5AM we should be able to look forward to better performance and lower fuel consumption at the very least.
Pete
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:copcar: :copcar: ZOMG YOU GUYS :copcar: :copcar:
I was just going to make a post about this. It's totally true, after my 620 mile service, shit has definitely gotten worse for Lil' Nero (working title). It's died on me for no reason after startup numerous times now, and it's just rough and horrible and sounds like it's dying all the time now. What the actual f***. How can this shit happen?! Who lets stuff just leave a factory like that, that busted? I made a video of it today actually, uploading it here just because I need to share it with you glorious folks who actually know stuff about things n' junk.
The video doesn't capture the *ugh*-ness that's been added since the mapping when I rev it more, and this video is actually of a tamer instance of this new behavior (I assume because it's been sitting out in 90+ degree weather in the sun so it's warmer maybe?). Anyway, I cringe each time I watch this, and don't mock my vertical video, this is like the 4th time in 3 years I've shot a video of any kind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4YN5ZZSwoA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4YN5ZZSwoA)
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Haven't seen the vid yet but if it's as bad as Clancy's bike it would be a pathetic embarrassment! Hi thee hence to your dealer and make sure they have updated PADS so you can get the latest map. As I've said elsewhere the jury will be out until Craig gives me/us some feedback but the first 'Upgrade' was a disaster!
Is yours harsh and vibratory and fouling the back of the pipes with soot! Craig's was, f'in horrible. Like riding a cheap sex-aid with a serious tobacco and crack habit!
Pete
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I don't want to start a panic here, but I has it occurred to me that this map confusion may be similar to the problem that VW is having now with their diesel engines. Maybe the lousy maps are sent out to get the bikes to comply with air pollution limits, and the maps that run well increase pollution to illegal levels. Map-gate.
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Pete,
Just curious...
What does the 796 Map address, since I don't
have a dealer down the street?
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:copcar: :copcar: ZOMG YOU GUYS :copcar: :copcar:
I was just going to make a post about this. It's totally true, after my 620 mile service, shit has definitely gotten worse for Lil' Nero (working title). It's died on me for no reason after startup numerous times now, and it's just rough and horrible and sounds like it's dying all the time now. What the actual f$!k. How can this shit happen?! Who lets stuff just leave a factory like that, that busted? I made a video of it today actually, uploading it here just because I need to share it with you glorious folks who actually know stuff about things n' junk.
The video doesn't capture the *ugh*-ness that's been added since the mapping when I rev it more, and this video is actually of a tamer instance of this new behavior (I assume because it's been sitting out in 90+ degree weather in the sun so it's warmer maybe?). Anyway, I cringe each time I watch this, and don't mock my vertical video, this is like the 4th time in 3 years I've shot a video of any kind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4YN5ZZSwoA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4YN5ZZSwoA)
Just for clarification, before the service everything was running normally, yes? Then after the service and ecu flash it's rough starting AND will stall when given throttle?
The video shows the rough start, though it doesn't stall. Once warmed up does everything operate normally?
As an aside, my V7 does cold start like yours did in the video when it's been sitting in the sun for a while.
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The original map, which I can't remember the designation of, is a bit surgey on cold start up. Other than that it seemed to work pretty well. Generally I think a new map is developed to address issues based on feedback from dealers. If the factory is getting a lot of enquiries about a running issue they will try and develop something that negates the problem. In the past there have been a couple of updates for some models, none for others. Generally speaking all the factory maps are a host of compromises but their main objectives are to pass emissions regulations and not cost a lot of time and therefore money to develop. To produce a really good map is time consuming and not inexpensive. Hence the rather basic quality of the factory offerings and the ongoing popularity of aftermarket kludges like O2 sensor foolers, power commanders and other such munt.
Pete
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The original map, which I can't remember the designation of, is a bit surgey on cold start up. Other than that it seemed to work pretty well. Generally I think a new map is developed to address issues based on feedback from dealers. If the factory is getting a lot of enquiries about a running issue they will try and develop something that negates the problem.........
Pete
Pete, I'm just trying to make sure we use the correct map here for the V7IIs. You're saying that the absolute latest one (...V796) is working well for them, but the previous one was crap, correct? I don't want to torpedo a customer bike on accident.
The newest V7 (I) map is excellent, and solves every issue I've seen with these.
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For the wanting to know, here miu3 manual. It has map sensor and stepper. And explains how things work.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/374769/Injection_V750_con_MIU_G3_ed01_03-2012_rev01_ENG.pdf
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For the wanting to know, here miu3 manual. It has map sensor and stepper. And explains how things work.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/374769/Injection_V750_con_MIU_G3_ed01_03-2012_rev01_ENG.pdf
A fount of information and answers much of the puzzlement and speculation about the MIUG3 on this forum and others.
Many thanks.
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Gotta love Guzzi dealers... Yesterday, I emailed my closest dealer's service department (120 miles distant), asking for a ride-in appointment to load the 352BV738 map in my 2014 V7 Special.
They've had all day today to respond to my request...
Crickets...
:undecided:
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Gotta love Guzzi dealers... Yesterday, I emailed my closest dealer's service department (120 miles distant), asking for a ride-in appointment to load the 352BV738 map in my 2014 V7 Special.
They've had all day today to respond to my request...
Crickets...
:undecided:
Maybe you should have added the sentence: If you reply positively in the next 6 hours, I might buy a new V7-II from you.
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Pete, I'm just trying to make sure we use the correct map here for the V7IIs. You're saying that the absolute latest one (...V796) is working well for them, but the previous one was crap, correct? I don't want to torpedo a customer bike on accident.
The newest V7 (I) map is excellent, and solves every issue I've seen with these.
Fletch, the jury is still out on the latest map as Craig's bike was warm when we uploaded it and its biggest, but not only, issue was its cold start with the previous one. He may chime in or he's certainly going to call me after he's ridden to work this morning, (It's 7.00AM here.). Main thing is NOT to upload the earlier one, the V795, or if you do make sure you have the V796 downloaded and ready to overwrite it.
Talking with John at Motocicolo yesterday he also said they had had several MUIG 3 models that had had sudden poor running issues and it seemed to be some form of corruption of the ECU. Anyway he was asked to send the vin to the warranty bloke at the importer who then emailed it to the importer and the next day they sent back a code and it was possible to reprogram the ECU. I'd noticed on PADS that the ECU has a NIP listed so one assumes that this is the same process that is used when unlocking Aprilia ECU's for race mapping and the like. The system here is different to the US and I can't communicate directly with the factory but I believe that you in the US can. On the service portal there is a 'Request a code' feature and I reckon if you talk to your tech bods they'll explain the process for requesting a re-set code. It might even be self explanatory? I'm not sure as, as I said, us mere underlings in Oz don't have such access.
Pete
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For the wanting to know, here miu3 manual. It has map sensor and stepper. And explains how things work.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/374769/Injection_V750_con_MIU_G3_ed01_03-2012_rev01_ENG.pdf
Thank you thank you thank you!!!!
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Thank you thank you thank you!!!!
Yes, thanks for that Paul. Given its actually a Piaggio training document it would of been REALLY NICE if they'd sent it to me at some point! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :violent1:
Pete
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Yes, thanks for that Paul. Given its actually a Piaggio training document it would of been REALLY NICE if they'd sent it to me at some point! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :violent1:
Pete
Well they put it on the servicemotoguzzi website, where you could have found it. For the ones that didn't go to the training:-)
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I was wondering why they didn't provide it to Pete AT TRAINING but figured I get really tired of all the piling on with mg that I'd just let it go... :boozing:
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Well they put it on the servicemotoguzzi website, where you could have found it. For the ones that didn't go to the training:-)
There isn't a training materials section on our dealer portal as far as I know. There are a heap of features that simply don't work on the Oz site. Don't ask me why!
Pete
Nah, just tried searching the site again. Just get error messages. Grrrrrr!
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Interesting, so idle is stepper controlled. It doesn't do it very well :grin:
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Just for clarification, before the service everything was running normally, yes? Then after the service and ecu flash it's rough starting AND will stall when given throttle?
The video shows the rough start, though it doesn't stall. Once warmed up does everything operate normally?
As an aside, my V7 does cold start like yours did in the video when it's been sitting in the sun for a while.
Kind of; it actually sucked when cold starting on the old map as well, it just was much less dramatic than this situation. This video isn't a great representation, it's just what I had time to film most recently; it's been MUCH worse than that, dies on me when sitting in driveway, giving it throttle from cold start, and it just runs rougher it seems. In other words, things have worsened and extended previous problems.
Pete Vasco, it's not THAT bad, fortunately, whew! That sounds like a nightmare, but I baby the shit out of this thing though, maybe I'm not seeing the soot and stuff yet because it's so frash still, super frash. Plus I'm doing as instructed by dealer and running only premium gas in it, 91 octane. Not sure if that matters or not though, and I feel like it could get that bad if things continue on as they are. My dealer responded to my email right away and said they have the new map and for me to bring it in when I can, which is whenever I can make the 2 HOUR LONG JOURNEY to Elk F*$%king Grove again, FML.
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For the wanting to know, here miu3 manual. It has map sensor and stepper. And explains how things work.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/374769/Injection_V750_con_MIU_G3_ed01_03-2012_rev01_ENG.pdf
Thanks a lot for the PDF! As a programmer I was constantly wondering why the hell would the two ignition coils on my V7 II be different, provided that everything else is the same for each of the cylinders. This file doesn't explain the very reasons but gives an informative background.
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Thankyou. Makes sense now!
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic048/sparken_zpsrl0xyszf.jpg)
:rolleyes:
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I would venture a guess as to the poor idle on start up having to do with it using the MAP until the O2 sensors get up to heat.
Also on the PDF, looks like several places in the process that an error will cause the whole unit to be tossed. Hopefully those errors do not happen often.
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Plus I'm doing as instructed by dealer and running only premium gas in it, 91 octane. Not sure if that matters or not though, and I feel like it could get that bad if things continue on as they are.
What??? 89 should be the highest octane you put in that bad boy unless something I'm not aware of has changed between the V7I and the V7II. Do NOT run premium.
*this is a Piaggio directive btw, not something we've made up
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Mine is running well on 89 (RON+MON)/20
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Also on the PDF, looks like several places in the process that an error will cause the whole unit to be tossed. Hopefully those errors do not happen often.
Good news is that it's only like $350 for the whole unit (according to yesterday's internet searches). In comparison it cost me $500 just to get my OEM unit flashed by Guzzitech on my last big block.
What??? 89 should be the highest octane you put in that bad boy unless something I'm not aware of has changed between the V7I and the V7II. Do NOT run premium.
*this is a Piaggio directive btw, not something we've made up
Really? Since when? Would love to see a source on that cause the previous generation literature that I've seen all said the equivalent of US PON 90/91.
Mine has pinged on 89.
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Give me another couple of days guys.
The results seem a bit mixed and I want to make sure my conclusions are reliable.
It's still winter here so morning cold starts are still just above 0 DegC and I want to get a few more of them in.
Morning starts were bad, but the worst starts I was having was after the bike had sat for 1-3 hrs following a ride.
Thankfully I can duck out of work at intervals this week and take the bike for a test start/ride around the block.
Not enough to warm it up but enough to see how it starts again after a short cool down.
Will be in touch.
Craig
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Funny thing about cold starts, on my 13 with the original map they were worse the HOTTER the ambient temp and the better the COLDER the ambient temp.
First swag would be it wasn't the fault of the stepper, but overly rich mixtures in initial open loop operation.
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Sticker on the tank says 90. I can't get 90, so I buy 91 (premium).
What he said. Also, dammit, yet again I find myself getting pulled between two opposing viewpoints in the same place: people here have said both "don't run premium" and "do what the dealer says on that", so I'm just gonna keep going with what the dealer says because that's two roughly distinguishable sources vs. one and they're holding my maintenance records, unless someone comes up with incontrovertible and clear evidence to the contrary.
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In honor of Yogi, "it's like deja vu all over again."
Not the first time the proper octane for the V7 has been discsussed here: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=61585.0
For what it's worth, I've been running 89 octane in mine for two seasons now with good results.
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Really? Since when? Would love to see a source on that cause the previous generation literature that I've seen all said the equivalent of US PON 90/91.
Mine has pinged on 89.
Kev we went over this in an older thread but don't remember which one. My source was an email (and subsequent phone convo) with our Piaggio tech when we were having serious cold start/throttle issues with one of our first 1TB V7s. It also falls in line with many other bikes in the Piaggio line, some of which will downright run like complete shit on premium (the BV350 and 500 come to mind immediately)
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What he said. Also, dammit, yet again I find myself getting pulled between two opposing viewpoints in the same place: people here have said both "don't run premium" and "do what the dealer says on that", so I'm just gonna keep going with what the dealer says because that's two roughly distinguishable sources vs. one and they're holding my maintenance records, unless someone comes up with incontrovertible and clear evidence to the contrary.
If we were your dealer we would be telling you to go 'one down' rather than 'one up' and use 89. :evil:
And again, that came from the mouth of our regional tech at Piaggio.
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89 worked fine in my '13 Stone and works fine in my '16 Stone. 87 did not, it pinged on lugging. I did try 91 once and didn't notice any difference compared to 89.
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Kev we went over this in an older thread but don't remember which one. My source was an email (and subsequent phone convo) with our Piaggio tech when we were having serious cold start/throttle issues with one of our first 1TB V7s. It also falls in line with many other bikes in the Piaggio line, some of which will downright run like complete shit on premium (the BV350 and 500 come to mind immediately)
You're right.
I dismissed it then, and I do again today.
1. I have no idea of the technical qualifications of the guy you got an email from, but history doesn't bode well on that source.
2. The V7 isn't a BV350 or a 500.
3. I tried 89 after you preached it here and my V7 pinged HORRIBLY with throttle and any kind of load.
So no thanks, I'll listen to the engineer's recommendations and what is printed in the Owner's and Service manuals in this case.
1TB V7 Owner's Manual:
Fuel Premium unleaded petrol,
minimum octane rating of 95
(NORM) and 85 (NOMM)
I'm told NORM = RON
and NOMM = MON
So US Pump Octane Number would be 90.
1TB V7 Service manual:
FUEL SYSTEM
Specification Desc./Quantity
Type Electronic injection (Marelli MIU G3)
Venturi Ø 38 mm (1.50 in)
Fuel Premium unleaded petrol, minimum octane rating of 95
(NORM) and 85 (NOMM)
Loft, I understand that if you personally have found 89 works well in YOUR region of the country and/or on bikes in YOUR dealership.
But assuming that is true across the country (different ambients, possibly different fuel formulation like winterized fuel etc.) is dangerous.
I might know what to listen for, but the next guy might not. The next guy might have Agostinis or LaFranconis that are drowning out the sound of the pinging as they are happily riding along cause someone on the forum told them 89 is fine until that day they put a hole in their piston.
Maybe we're splitting hairs and the pinging won't be often enough or severe enough in most cases.
But why risk it? Why not give the actual factory recommendation with a caveat that YOU PERSONALLY HAVE FOUND NO PROBLEM WITH 89 and even have been told by Piaggio reps it should be fine. But warn them to listen for pinging and not to use it if they hear it.
Fair enough?
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Yep I get that (regional differences). Fair enough.
And yes I understand a V7 is not a BV500. I only mentioned that bike in particular b/c the manual would suggest a higher octane than what actually works. My *personal* theory is that something gets lost in translation in those manuals and specs, but I have no actual grounds for that theory...it's more of a 'I've been dealing with Piaggio products long enough to suspect...' type of thing.
As for the tech's qualifications, I'd *hope* they're good as he's our direct line to Piaggio tech. :boozing:
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Yep I get that (regional differences). Fair enough.
And yes I understand a V7 is not a BV500. I only mentioned that bike in particular b/c the manual would suggest a higher octane than what actually works. My *personal* theory is that something gets lost in translation in those manuals and specs, but I have no actual grounds for that theory...it's more of a 'I've been dealing with Piaggio products long enough to suspect...' type of thing.
As for the tech's qualifications, I'd *hope* they're good as he's our direct line to Piaggio tech. :boozing:
I don't think anything is lost in translation when you convert octane ratings. That's like saying something is lost in translation when you convert 20C to 68F. That's just not the case.
As for the TECH, he's a TECH, like me, we're NOT ENGINEERS. I don't for a second think a regional tech generally knows better than the guy who designed it.
Now I DO admit the possibility that the guy who designed it for whatever reason was not allowed to say what he really thought the recommendation SHOULD BE. But we'll probably never know that for sure.
I'm just going with the OEM recs COUPLED with my personal experience suggest it's not black and white that you always CAN use a lower octane. Though it wouldn't surprise me at all if you could sometimes.
:thumb:
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Maybe it's just because I'm frugal (Guzzi content) but I put the cheap stuff in my V7 and in the Stelvio. I've never had an issue with pinging under load. Both bikes run just fine.
Peter Y.
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OK, looks like map 4533V796 has actually fixed the worst of the issues created by map 4533V795.
With map 4533V795 the idle was higher & frantic making the bike buzzy.
Idle is now back down and lazier.
The horrible lurch & stall after a short cool down period is gone.
I tested this with periods of 1 - 8 hrs, was nervous it would stall every time, but it never did.
First thing in the morning (0-5 DegC) are still a bit dodgy.
I have had a couple of stalls.
These stalls have not happened immediately upon taking off.
As I said to Pete, if you are able to get rolling and go for 50m or so without slowing down then the bike keeps running fine.
But if you have to slow down for something before then, like the end of your driveway or a speed bump, then it seems to drop into 'shit' mode as you slow down, then lurch & stall as you try to go back on the gas.
Overall I'd say the bike was almost back to where it was before the initial re-mapping.
As the wife & kids are away all next week, I should be able to get some decent riding in after work.
If anything changes in the way it runs - either way - I'll let you know.
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The morning after I'd posted this, I tried a procedure that Pete had passed on as something to try when we were dealing with the shitty 4533V795 map.
It's simply start the engine from stone cold WITHOUT TOUCHING THE THROTTLE and allow the bike to slowly warm up to full operating temperature (15-20min), DO NOT rev it or touch the throttle at all during this time. Then turn it off and let the bike cool down completely.
This apparantly performs a full 'Cold to Hot' idle trim.
To be honest, he was a bit dubious about it but hey, it was what he'd been told to do and we had to try something.
Anyway, after I done this the first time it appeared to me to have smoothed out the running at lower revs when cold, so I thought it was worth a try again.
(It did not get rid of the horrid lurch & stall problem).
So on Saturday morning I pulled the main fuse for a minute & replaced, then did as described above.
After going through the process the bike has started and run first thing in the morning for the last 3 days WITHOUT ANY burp, fart, lurch or stall. None at all!
Now granted, the past few mornings have been a bit warmer than earlier in the week (8~10 DegC), and maybe someone wiser will say it's rubbish, but I can only report what I've done and found.
I had a ball on the bike over the weekend, not one foul word or embarrassing moment. :cool:
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Excellent! Danielwasnt talking out of his arse! :evil:
Pete
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Really??? Pete recommended idling the bike for 15-20 minuteso allow it to self adjust trim, really???
I don't think I'd make it past minute 5.
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Yup, that's what I was instructed to try so I did, and it worked it seems!
The Nuovo smallblock engine has bags of finning and it is only idling, it's not going to be producing masses of heat. I'm still at a bit of a loss as to why it works but as long as it does? Who cares?
Pete
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Hmmm, maybe I should pull the fuse for a bit, then install and try it. My V7 with the latest map is still showing some cold bloodedness. Really 15-20 minutes eh? Don't touch the throttle.
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Ambient temp obviously plays a part but it has to get as hot as hades! Have you got Guzzidiag up and running? Just wait until the ET stabilises, job done.
I have to say I just uploaded the latest map for air cooled alt. bikes into a Racer this morning. It was a cold blooded shitter. Now completely fixed. Are you sure they upgraded the map?
Pete
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As sure as I can be without looking over their shoulder and not having hooked up GuzziDiag.
I'll give GuzziDiag another try. I ordered a new set of cables from a different recommended source in case that was the problem. I'll also make sure I have the current version.
The new map seemed to make difference the first cold start, maybe even the second. But it's like the adaptive learn trimmed it back to something that's surging again and it staked up the street in the last ride.
Maybe it's time to visually inspect the throttle plate and MAP sensor tube. Make sure they're clean. I know not to use solvent on the tube.
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Hmmm, maybe I should pull the fuse for a bit, then install and try it. My V7 with the latest map is still showing some cold bloodedness. Really 15-20 minutes eh? Don't touch the throttle.
I've not had any such issues with my map upgrade. I've put about 500 miles on since the upgrade. I didn't mind the 2 minute warm-up before, but I must admit it's nice to be able to just start and ride off. We are on the tail end of riding here in WI, I doubt I'll have any hot/humid conditions for comparison until next season!
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.....I'll give GuzziDiag another try. I ordered a new set of cables from a different recommended source in case that was the problem. I'll also make sure I have the current version.....
If you're using a Mac, don't forget to install the USB driver from the Guzzigdiag web site (I forgot). Otherwise nogo, Guzzidiag will keep telling you the ignition is off.