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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: canuguzzi on September 21, 2015, 07:23:44 PM
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When you start factoring in all the tax credits, subsidies, monies paid for smog checks (where required) and the fix, this is going to cost VW plenty. The good news is that in the short term, if you have a diesel VW the people that want one are going to find them in short supply on the used market, none at dealers so name your price.
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...or you might find that no one wants to touch them with a 10 ft pole. Not sure if when they are properly fixed what that will do to the vaunted mpg they get on diesel fuel. Interesting story. Never underestimate the ingenuity of corporations in their quest for profits. This story seems like it will continue and expand in the coming weeks and months.
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Someone at DOT was probably testing emissions and as is usual for VW/Audi the fuel pump relay failed. The ever vigilant tester then jumped across the 30/87 pins to get the fuel pump working, thus bypassing their ECU trickery........ooo ps!
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There is something very inconsistent in the stories so far. Claims that if the emissions were set properly then the cars would start getting worse mileage than they do now. I've got a 2014 TDI SE Passat and over 5000 miles since I bought it back in January, I am averaging 40 mpg...mostly highway, a little bit of city mixed in. I find it hard to believe how if this vehicle is polluting MORE than it should, meaning theoretically I am consuming MORE diesel, why my mileage would get WORSE instead of better. Something doesn't quite seem correct, unless it's not the consumption of diesel, but some other setting.
A few possible outcomes:
The extent of the "cheating" is not material and VW fixes whatever is tweaked
or
There is a recall or some $ incentive provided
or
Unidentified alternative scenario, not yet imagined.
Either way, the car drives smoothly, quietly, runs great, super roomy and delivers a "mildly boring" but convenient commute vehicle.
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Problem is that the software bypass allows higher particulate and NOX emissions. So the fuel amount and mileage shouldn't change but the aftertreatment systems (kinda equivalent to the catalytic converter in cars) were being bypassed. Which apparently led to considerably higher particulate and NOX emissions than advertised, although I'm not sure how those levels compare to older diesels or commercial vehicles or an out-of-tune city bus.
In racing this would be a fine example of "creative rules interpretation" worthy of Gordon Murray or Smokey Yunick. Dealing with government officials who likely hate cars, it's potentially ugly. Oh yeah, and if Christian Horner and Helmut Marko at Red Bull F1 were thinking they were gonna get VW Group money and power, looks like the EPA got there first…
:popcorn:
cr
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We need an engineer to weigh in here and explain what and how .
Dusty
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Software in the ECU integrated data from steering angle, wheel position and slip, and other sensors to tell if the car was actually in motion or undergoing a static (dyno) test. EPA tests are done as dyno simulations for consistency. And therein lie the differences between EPA estimated mileage and what you really get, since the "highway cycle" is at something like a simulated 50 mph, or was at one time.
All of those sensors are in pretty much every car, for the ABS and electronic stability systems. And there is no tailpipe testing of a car running on the road, for obvious reasons. $$$$ for a start. So some clever person figured out that a certain suite of sensor inputs would occur only during certification testing, and took it from there…
VW diesels typically get far better highway mileage than EPA estimates while hybrids fall far short. Perhaps some up-and-coming EPA test engineer got suspicious? (yeah, I know, government bureaucrat wanting to go beyond barely showing up seems dubious, but perhaps a bit of zealotry was at work) No one else has gotten diesels to work as well as VW. GM has one in the Cruze, I think, but have they sold any? Mazda was going to bring one in a couple of years ago in the Mazda6, but could never get it to run clean enough.
I love the VW diesels, torque, torque, torque, and excellent mileage and fun to drive. Sadly I suspect they're done. Oh well, now then, who's gonna do the first meme mashup of Lance Armstrong in a VW TDI?
cr
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We need an engineer to weigh in here and explain what and how .
Dusty
The main pollutant in question is NOx (oxides of nitrogen, but, NO2 and NO3).
In the early to mid 2000's EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) was adding to reduce NOx emissions. It does this by reducing the amount of oxygen present which reduces combustion temps, and thus reduces NOx emissions. It also reduces efficiency (lower MPG), and increases particulate (soot) emissions.
So, next the EPA forces the auto (and truck) makers to reduce particulate emissions. So, along domes the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter). In order to periodically (as frequently as every 100 miles), a "regen cycle" is run, which basically burns fuel in the DPF to burn off the soot. This,of course further reduces overall fuel economy some more.
The latest in diesel emissions systems is DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid, which is urea, which isn't a lot unlike urine, and contains ammonia) injection. This system reduces NOx emissions, allowing for reduced use of EGR and DPF, getting back some of the lost fuel economy at the expense of even more complexity, and the need to periodically refill the DEF tank.
AFAIK, this recall will likely only affect the non DEF equipped cars. It will likely force them to run more EGR and DPF cycles to reduces NOx emissions.
This WILL reduce fuel economy by a measurable amount. This WILL piss off everyone with an affected car, considering that fuel economy was the reason to choose a diesel to begin with. My wife & I chose VW diesels over hybrids because with both enjoy driving a car with a proper manual transmission, which you can't get with a hybrid.
One of our cars is out of warranty, and the other soon will be. My plan is to avoid taking our cars to a VW dealer at all costs, as, they will be required by law to install the software "upgrade" that "fixes" the emissions on any car that passes through their hands.
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Thanks Jas...mine does require the Urea treatment and is also a 6 speed manual...as much fun as one can have in a sedate sedan!
Timing of this issue couldn't be more coincidental. Tonight I received an email blast from my VW dealer offering discounts on service, oil change etc. Took advantage of that to ask the service manager sending the mail what he knows about the EPA issue...will be interesting to see what they reply tomorrow morning!
Worst case scenario - they do a recall and give money back...or they have to fix it somehow, but I find it hard to believe the fix would create even any sort of impact on mileage. Shit...I can drive from Houston to El Paso on one tank of diesel...that's pretty incredible! If they give money back...well then...may have to add another Guzzi to the garage!
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My understanding from reports is that while the software doesn't affect fuel economy a significant degree, it does affect performance so that zippy diesel could become more sedate.
That could be a huge deal for those that bought a VW diesel after a test drive showed that a diesel doesn't have to be in the barely adequate range when it comes to acceleration. Older diesels seem to hold their values pretty good.
No free lunch, either performance or fuel economy has to suffer and enough to warrant the company going to such lengths to do what they did.
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I'd have to guess that 9/10 folks buy a diesel for mileage not for the 0-60 time...so even if it's a bit more sluggish after the fix, as long as mileage stays above 40 mpg, I'm ok with it. This vehicle isn't for racing anyway...that's what the other toys are for! :)
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Thanks CR and Jay , all very interesting , even though a diesel car is not in my future .
I'd have to guess that 9/10 folks buy a diesel for mileage not for the 0-60 time...so even if it's a bit more sluggish after the fix, as long as mileage stays above 40 mpg, I'm ok with it. This vehicle isn't for racing anyway...that's what the other toys are for! :)
Probably true Paul .
Dusty
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Someone at DOT was probably testing emissions and as is usual for VW/Audi the fuel pump relay failed. The ever vigilant tester then jumped across the 30/87 pins to get the fuel pump working, thus bypassing their ECU trickery........ooo ps!
How it was discovered will be a very interesting story!!!
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http://blog.caranddriver.com/how-volkswagen-got-busted-for-gaming-epa-diesel-emissions-standards/
here's the story
When the International Council on Clean Transportation began to look into discrepancies in the emissions of several Volkswagen diesel vehicles in early 2014, it was with the sincerest of intentions. Noting that the U.S. had stricter and more rigorously enforced emissions laws that Volkswagen�s TDI-equipped cars routinely passed without problems, the ICCT figured performing some tests on U.S. soil would provide them with a good control model. Enlisting the help of West Virginia University�s Center for Alternative Fuels, Engines, and Emissions (CAFEE) to assist with the real-world testing, it seemed the data would soon reveal the root of the inconsistencies. But when the results gathered via real-world testing were compared with the compliant numbers generated in the lab by the California Air Resources Board (CARB), it was clear something wasn�t kosher in dieselburg......... ......
“Developing an engine software to optimize certain aspects of an operation cycle that you know the parameters of is a challenge, but it is very possible,” says Thiruvengadam. “Knowing when to switch to the EPA-favorable cycle is the trick; it could be set up to detect the absence of steering-wheel movement, or, and this is known, we often turn off the traction control for testing purposes.” Either way, the result is the same: it turns the emissions controls on for EPA testing and off for real-world driving. Somewhat ironically, the presumed benefits of turning off the controls for normal driving include improved fuel economy and engine power.
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Thanks John .
Dusty
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I'd have to guess that 9/10 folks buy a diesel for mileage not for the 0-60 time...so even if it's a bit more sluggish after the fix, as long as mileage stays above 40 mpg, I'm ok with it. This vehicle isn't for racing anyway...that's what the other toys are for! :)
Probably true until this happened. Now I'm guessing 9/10 folks who bought one will line up for the checks.
I winder if it is something like a map that could be saved and reloaded if the fix creates undesired effects. Cat bypass pipes and removing canisters and loading up maps seems to be okay, this wouldn't be all the different would it?
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Could be Norge Pilot, and if that happens, that's OK too, as it's not the end of the world though as long as the buy back value is fair...take the money and go shopping for another vehicle.
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GM is buying their way out of the ignition switch deaths coverup for just under a billion, nobody going to jail, and some firings. If they can do that then I doubt VW can do worse...
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VW just becomes the world's largest automaker, topping Toyota. Then all of the sudden this happens. Coincidence?
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I bought my '09 TDI Jetta last year. LOVE it!!! It may not be fast but it is quick and nimble as all get out. It FEELs like a sports car with the six speed manual. Goes like it's on rails over the mountains. My understanding is that the recall will be a software fix to reduce power to get the emissions back to allowable levels. I'm not giving that up. I'll avoid the recall at all cost. I don't live anywhere near a dealer so I've got that going.
-AJ
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Well, yes, there is. In California, all smog testing is done on a dyno. VW must've used a different set of sensors to determine that a test was underway.
Easy. The front wheels are rolling on the dyno. The back wheels aren't rolling. Static test in progress...
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There is something very inconsistent in the stories so far. Claims that if the emissions were set properly then the cars would start getting worse mileage than they do now. I've got a 2014 TDI SE Passat and over 5000 miles since I bought it back in January, I am averaging 40 mpg...mostly highway, a little bit of city mixed in.....
I have a very similar car in that its a 2012 2.0l TDI CR with DPF fitted Skoda Octavia with 60k+ miles on the clock
Mine does 60MPG (50 US MPG) all day everyday and I've seen 70MPG (58 US MPG) on a run
Now mine is a 6 speed manual and I guess yours is an auto but is that enough to make the difference given the auto should lock up at highway speeds?
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Smart, successful businesspeople made the determination that the sales/marketing gain from this ruse warranted the huge potential risk from being caught. They either weren't smart (maybe) or more likely they understood that the odds of being caught were very small in which case this is the tip of the iceberg and we should expect similar shenanigans from all the auto companies. VW wasn't knows as particularly slimy after all.
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No one else has gotten diesels to work as well as VW.
Maybe in the US, but in the rest of the world PSA (who produce Citroen and Peugeot and are the fifth biggest auotmobile manufacturers) have far superior technology and lower pollution. They have been running particulate filters for at least ten years in Australia now.
I never see any smoke from PSA cars with PFs, but always used to see ugly black smoke from VWs in Aus.
Even particulate filters are old hat now, diesel trucks and some diesel cars here now run Ad-Blue which is basically liquid urea, injectected into the exhaust to kill NOx emissions.
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I have a very similar car in that its a 2012 2.0l TDI CR with DPF fitted Skoda Octavia with 60k+ miles on the clock
Mine does 60MPG (50 US MPG) all day everyday and I've seen 70MPG (58 US MPG) on a run
Now mine is a 6 speed manual and I guess yours is an auto but is that enough to make the difference given the auto should lock up at highway speeds?
Can you tell what speeds you drive at to get those figures?
Are you going off the trip computer or actually doing the calculations at the pump?
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VW just becomes the world's largest automaker, topping Toyota. Then all of the sudden this happens. Coincidence?
So Charlie it was the Toyota Prius engineers who ratted VW out! I think there will be other manufacturers who may be caught doing something similar to this. And here I was somewhat regretting buying a Jetta with a 1.8 turbo engine - I just couldn't justify the additional expense for their diesel, although I thought their mpg was fantastic...guess just a little too fantastic, as it may turn out. What an interesting story this is.
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Is that any worse than our beloved Moto Guzzi turning out bikes that run really lean to pass California emission standards knowing full well that the owners are going to remove the cans and re-map?
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VW just becomes the world's largest automaker, topping Toyota. Then all of the sudden this happens. Coincidence?
You mean the coincidence:
In US
Japan's biggest company Toyota sued for billions
BP UKs biggest company sued for billions despite fault being a US contractor.
Now Germany biggest company sued for billions.
If Piaggio were any bigger they'd be s##ting them selves.
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VW just becomes the world's largest automaker, topping Toyota. Then all of the sudden this happens. Coincidence?
Being a lover of conspiracies, I note that VW USA employees recently chose to vote against union membership--to the dismay of VW HQ itself, and of course the White House. The Chicago Way is to punish people for failing to toe the party line, so maybe VW was now under especially close federal regulatory scrutiny...
Or as Mayor Daley might have said, "We have to scrutin them."
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Volkswagen says that an internal investigation has revealed that 11 million of its vehicles sold worldwide are fitted with the same software designed to trick emissions testing equipment as the 500,000 vehicles involved in an emerging scandal in the United States.
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/09/22/volkswagen-says-11-million-its-cars-are-equipped-with-emissions-test-beating/ (http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/09/22/volkswagen-says-11-million-its-cars-are-equipped-with-emissions-test-beating/)
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Geez , a plot by the white house , really , come on now :tongue:
Dusty
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The lawyers are already starting up the class-action suits. Well, that didn't take long.
http://www.hbsslaw.com/cases-and-investigations/cases/Volkswagen-Emissions (http://www.hbsslaw.com/cases-and-investigations/cases/Volkswagen-Emissions)
http://www.krcomplexlit.com/index.asp?N=attorneys-Seattle-WA-Volkswagen-Investigation&C=517&P=15144 (http://www.krcomplexlit.com/index.asp?N=attorneys-Seattle-WA-Volkswagen-Investigation&C=517&P=15144)
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There is something very inconsistent in the stories so far. Claims that if the emissions were set properly then the cars would start getting worse mileage than they do now. I've got a 2014 TDI SE Passat and over 5000 miles since I bought it back in January, I am averaging 40 mpg...mostly highway, a little bit of city mixed in.
This is comparable to what I'm getting on my 09 Jetta TDI. I'd say average is 38 mpg at home. On the flat interstate with cruise control set to 70 it gets pretty close to 50 mpg.
-AJ
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Maybe in the US, but in the rest of the world PSA (who produce Citroen and Peugeot and are the fifth biggest auotmobile manufacturers) have far superior technology and lower pollution. They have been running particulate filters for at least ten years in Australia now.
I never see any smoke from PSA cars with PFs, but always used to see ugly black smoke from VWs in Aus.
Even particulate filters are old hat now, diesel trucks and some diesel cars here now run Ad-Blue which is basically liquid urea, injectected into the exhaust to kill NOx emissions.
Very true. Diesel CARS in the US still are not well accepted and I think VW/Audi diesels are the most respected over here. Probably due to better marketing but we have very few options to choose from. I think I've seen one BMW diesel? And Mercedes has there's. I'm not even sure that there is a domestic option available. People's memory of the of the Oldsmobile diesel engine still lingers thanks to oral history, almost like tall tales.
At home I have no problem finding diesel but my last two trips to Ohio I had real issues trying to find a diesel pump.
My visits to Dusselldorf it SEEMED like 2 of every 3 cars was diesel. I'm sure it is not that high in reality but it was more than significantly higher than how many diesel cars are available here.
-AJ
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Looking at the bigger picture, how will this effect Ducati?
I'm not even sure that there is a domestic option available. People's memory of the of the Oldsmobile diesel engine still lingers thanks to oral history, almost like tall tales.
The Chevy Cruze has an available diesel, but at a ridiculous premium.
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If VW can do it, any OEM can do it.
This may be tip of the iceberg.
Unintended consequence of all the super-high-tech gadgetry. It can be programmed to do things other than what is advertised.
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Very true. Diesel CARS in the US still are not well accepted and I think VW/Audi diesels are the most respected over here. Probably due to better marketing but we have very few options to choose from. I think I've seen one BMW diesel? And Mercedes has there's. I'm not even sure that there is a domestic option available. People's memory of the of the Oldsmobile diesel engine still lingers thanks to oral history, almost like tall tales.
I would predict that this kills the diesel passenger car market, at least for VW. VW have a hybrid Jetta, and the electric Golf-E is soon to be on the market.
They will abandon selling the TDI here, and replace it with hybrids and electrics as their high-MPG cars to appease the CAFE requirements (just as all the other makes have).
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Being a lover of conspiracies, I note that VW USA employees recently chose to vote against union membership--to the dismay of VW HQ itself, and of course the White House. The Chicago Way is to punish people for failing to toe the party line, so maybe VW was now under especially close federal regulatory scrutiny...
Or as Mayor Daley might have said, "We have to scrutin them."
really? geeesus
paranoia - projection - transference
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http://www.theguardian.com/business/video/2015/sep/22/us-volkswagen-michael-horn-video
The head of Volkswagen America, Michael Horn, says at a promotional event in New York on Monday that the carmaker was dishonest with US emission regulators and the public after manipulating engine software to falsify emisisons data. Shares in Volkswagen fell by almost a fifth on Monday after the carmaker issued a public apology
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Oh well, now then, who's gonna do the first meme mashup of Lance Armstrong in a VW TDI?
cr
LOL. If you recall VW was a sponsor of the now infamous Lance Armstrong doping USPS Squad. I actually have the Trek USPS team bike of the 2002 vintage. When I bought it, it had a VW sticker on it and I removed it and replaced it with a Ducati Power sticker.
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GM is buying their way out of the ignition switch deaths coverup for just under a billion, nobody going to jail, and some firings. If they can do that then I doubt VW can do worse...
You would think that these "big guys" would know that they're eventually going to get caught cheating, and wouldn't even try that stuff ... Like GM did, or, recently, Toshiba who overstated their earnings by over a billion dollars trying to fool the banks and investors, or AT&T who went completely out of business by misstating (i.e., lying like a big dog) capital vs. operational expenses.
I suppose the guilty have already made it to Rio with the boodle by the time the rest get to explain what "happened" and pay for it ....
Lannis
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.....the carmaker issued a public apology
"We apologize and are very sorry we got caught". How many times have we heard that from politicians?
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LOL. If you recall VW was a sponsor of the now infamous Lance Armstrong doping USPS Squad. I actually have the Trek USPS team bike of the 2002 vintage. When I bought it, it had a VW sticker on it and I removed it and replaced it with a Ducati Power sticker.
ya'know that VW bought Ducati?
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really? geeesus
"Bush's fault, Obama's fault, nobody's fault... it won't matter - I'm gonna turn up my TDI. No matter what else happens, no matter who gets offended, I'm gonna roll coal, brother."
(https://mikestakeonthemovies.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/big_jake_blu-ray_6.jpg)
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"We apologize and are very sorry we got caught". How many times have we heard that from politicians?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbTYhAhJryA
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I have a very similar car in that its a 2012 2.0l TDI CR with DPF fitted Skoda Octavia with 60k+ miles on the clock
Mine does 60MPG (50 US MPG) all day everyday and I've seen 70MPG (58 US MPG) on a run. Now mine is a 6 speed manual and I guess yours is an auto but is that enough to make the difference given the auto should lock up at highway speeds?
Same here Tris, mine is a 6 speed manual as well. If I'm cruising on the highway, I can see upwards of 46 to 48mpg...a few weeks ago, I did Houston to Austin and back (around 350 miles) and averaged 46 mpg. Not too shabby!
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"We apologize and are very sorry we got caught". How many times have we heard that from politicians?
EVERY time...just play the tape and change the Brand name...same story all the time!
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Press release, Sept 20:
http://media.vw.com/release/1066/ (http://media.vw.com/release/1066/)
STATEMENT OF PROF. DR. MARTIN WINTERKORN, CEO OF VOLKSWAGEN AG
Sep 20, 2015
Wolfsburg, September 20, 2015 – The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board (EPA and CARB) revealed their findings that while testing diesel cars of the Volkswagen Group they have detected manipulations that
violate American environmental standards.
The Board of Management at Volkswagen AG takes these findings very seriously. I personally am deeply sorry that we have broken the trust of our customers and the public. We will cooperate fully with the responsible agencies, with transparency and urgency, to
clearly, openly, and completely establish all of the facts of this case. Volkswagen has ordered an external investigation of this matter.
We do not and will not tolerate violations of any kind of our internal rules or of the law.
The trust of our customers and the public is and continues to be our most important asset. We at Volkswagen will do everything that must be done in order to re-establish the trust that so many people have placed in us, and we will do everything necessary in order to reverse the damage this has caused. This matter has first priority for me, personally, and for our entire Board of Management.
Volkswagen Group Communications
Head of Corporate & Business Communications
Andreas Lampersbach
Phone: +49 (0) 53 61 / 9-3 93 56
E-Mail: andreas.lampersbach@volkswagen.de
www.volkswagen-media-services.com
www.volkswagenag.co m
Documents
pdf 30.71 KB 200915vwus
On the heals of this announcement, just 9 days prior:
http://media.vw.com/release/1058/ (http://media.vw.com/release/1058/)
VOLKSWAGEN IS WORLD'S MOST SUSTAINABLE AUTOMOTIVE GROUP
Sep 11, 2015
Pole position in Dow Jones Sustainability Index
Industry Group Leader in the Automobiles & Components sector
Winterkorn acknowledges "great success for entire team"
The Volkswagen Group has again been listed as the most sustainable automaker in the world's leading sustainability ranking. As in 2013, RobecoSAM AG again classed the company as the Industry Group Leader in the automotive sector in this year's review of the Dow Jones Sustainability Indices (DJSI). Volkswagen is thus one of only two automakers to be listed in both DJSI World and DJSI Europe.
For investors, the Dow Jones Sustainability Index is the most significant benchmark for measuring the development of the world's most sustainable companies. The review analyzed the corporate performance of a total of 33 automotive companies, seven of them from Europe. Volkswagen took pole position with a total of 91 out of 100 possible points. Economic sustainability was awarded 93 points, social sustainability 91 points, and ecological sustainability 89 points.
"This distinction is a great success for the entire team. It confirms that the Volkswagen Group is well on the way to establishing itself long term as the world's most sustainable automaker," commented Prof. Dr. Martin Winterkorn, Chairman of Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft.
Full marks were awarded to Volkswagen in the areas of codes of conduct, compliance and anti-corruption as well as innovation management, climate strategy and life cycle assessment. The Group is also the industry benchmark for supplier management and environmental reporting. Furthermore, significant progress has been made in human capital development, occupational health and safety, tax strategy and talent attraction.
The experts from RobecoSAM highlighted achievements such as the fact that "sustainability is the foundation of Volkswagen's corporate policy" and that "the company's success has gone hand in hand with an increase in the number and development of employees." Once again in 2014, the Volkswagen Group "invested in new model research and development, and in innovative technologies, which by 2019 will contribute towards developing more efficient vehicles, alternative powertrains, and more environmentally compatible production."
Volkswagen AG
Spokesperson Environment and CSR
Stefan Ernst
Letter box 19720
38442 Wolfsburg
Germany
Telephone: +49 (0) 5361 / 9-86267
Telefax: +49 (0) 5361 / 9-74629
E-mail: stefan.ernst1@volkswagen.de
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"Bush's fault, Obama's fault, nobody's fault... it won't matter - I'm gonna turn up my TDI. No matter what else happens, no matter who gets offended, I'm gonna roll coal, brother."
(https://mikestakeonthemovies.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/big_jake_blu-ray_6.jpg)
It is a plot launched by Captain Chaos :laugh: Seriously , a jackass "rolled coal" all over me a couple of years back , it was misting, and that smokey mess was not rising . He thought it was funny until realizing how close he was to , well , it wasn't gonna be pretty .
Funny picture Mike , who is that guy ?
Dusty
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and the CEO is gone...that didn't take long!
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-dismiss-ceo-over-emissions-135635974.html
Raus mit dir Winterkorn - du, du Schweinehund!
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You know, upon reflection, VW was cheating, and spoofing emissions data, so that they could sell more cars ....
... but how often do we modify our exhausts or our fuel injectors or carbs or whatever for more power, and do something completely illegal in the process as far as emissions go? We only get by with it because no one's sniffing our tailpipes - if they were, it would be obvious that WE'D broken the law ... ?
So maybe the thing about specks and beams applies here? I know that MY beam is pretty intrusive .... !
Lannis
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"Volkswagen warned that sum could rise, adding diesel cars with so-called Type EA 189 engines built into about 11 million Volkswagen models worldwide had shown a "noticeable deviation" in emission levels between testing and road use."
Gee, to bad it was "noticeable". Next time we'll do better so that it won't be noticeable.
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With Winterkorn gone, can Piech be waiting in the wings?
Wait a minute...
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German auto supplier Bosch said on Tuesday it had supplied the components to Volkswagen that are now at the centre of the U.S. probe into test rigging.
"We produce the components after specification of Volkswagen," it said in an e-mailed statement. "The responsibility for application and integration of the components lies with Volkswagen."
"I vass only following orderss." Heard that before.
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GM is buying their way out of the ignition switch deaths coverup for just under a billion, nobody going to jail, and some firings. If they can do that then I doubt VW can do worse...
VW can do MUCH worse - GM didn't purposefully and willfully design their cars to avoid complying with the law (they just were sloppy and then hid things). It's the difference between accident and motive...
That said, GM is getting off light, considering how their cover-up was handled.
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You know, upon reflection, VW was cheating, and spoofing emissions data, so that they could sell more cars ....
... but how often do we modify our exhausts or our fuel injectors or carbs or whatever for more power, and do something completely illegal in the process as far as emissions go? We only get by with it because no one's sniffing our tailpipes - if they were, it would be obvious that WE'D broken the law ... ?
So maybe the thing about specks and beams applies here? I know that MY beam is pretty intrusive .... !
Lannis
Awwwwwww damnit , Lannis is right :shocked: :laugh: My guess is that VW will deal with this now that they have been outed , doubt if it will take them down . Talked to a friend this morning that has been driving VW diesels since '89 , now has a 2014 model . He just shrugged and indicated he would have the recall done and doubted the slight performance loss would be noticeable .
Dusty
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VW can do MUCH worse - GM didn't purposefully and willfully design their cars to avoid complying with the law (they just were sloppy and then hid things). It's the difference between accident and motive...
That said, GM is getting off light, considering how their cover-up was handled.
Yeah , but so far no deaths have been linked to the VW debacle .
Dusty
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You know, upon reflection, VW was cheating, and spoofing emissions data, so that they could sell more cars ....
... but how often do we modify our exhausts or our fuel injectors or carbs or whatever for more power, and do something completely illegal in the process as far as emissions go? We only get by with it because no one's sniffing our tailpipes - if they were, it would be obvious that WE'D broken the law ... ?
So maybe the thing about specks and beams applies here? I know that MY beam is pretty intrusive .... !
Lannis
Well, there are all those products that carry a label "Not for use on any street vehicle" - so at least the manufacturer (of both vehicle and accessory) can say they've met their obligations. The really egregious thing here was not that the emissions regs were not met, but that the company purposefully practiced to deceive and got caught in their own tangled web (thanks for the quote, Walter!).
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Well, there are all those products that carry a label "Not for use on any street vehicle" - so at least the manufacturer (of both vehicle and accessory) can say they've met their obligations. The really egregious thing here was not that the emissions regs were not met, but that the company purposefully practiced to deceive and got caught in their own tangled web (thanks for the quote, Walter!).
"Not for use on any street vehicle" , wink wink :laugh:
Dusty
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The difference with VW is that there was conspiracy, collusion or both, of the criminal type. When you load up a new map, that is likely in violation of federal law, same with the cat y pipe replacement s. However, you aren't doing it to make money by bypassing emissions regulations nor decieve the consumer. There is no real comparison here.
This is just starting, it isn't a matter of fixing the emissions controls. There are tax incentives, the mpg and emissions averages of their entire model lines, fraud and the list goes on and on. Years ago this might have been a fix, pay fine and forget it. Not these days. Now we're talking many billions of dollars, just in the US market.
Lots of VW owners are cult buyers too, like those buying Subaru's and so on. What the dedicated VW diesel owners say won't matter much and probably won't matter at all, this is way past what the guy down the street thinks or wants. Blood in the water.
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They coulda cop'd a better deal had they better lawyers and lobbyists.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic046/dewey_cheatham_and_howe_zpsmeuddf8k.jpg)
:grin:
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"Not for use on any street vehicle" , wink wink :laugh:
Dusty
It's called 'plausible deniability"! :evil: Now, who came up with that term? :cool:
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They coulda cop'd a better deal had they better lawyers and lobbyists.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic046/dewey_cheatham_and_howe_zpsmeuddf8k.jpg)
:grin:
Frickin hilarious, almost fell out if my chair!
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The difference with VW is that there was conspiracy, collusion or both, of the criminal type. When you load up a new map, that is likely in violation of federal law, same with the cat y pipe replacement s. However, you aren't doing it to make money by bypassing emissions regulations nor decieve the consumer. There is no real comparison here.
This is just starting, it isn't a matter of fixing the emissions controls. There are tax incentives, the mpg and emissions averages of their entire model lines, fraud and the list goes on and on. Years ago this might have been a fix, pay fine and forget it. Not these days. Now we're talking many billions of dollars, just in the US market.
Lots of VW owners are cult buyers too, like those buying Subaru's and so on. What the dedicated VW diesel owners say won't matter much and probably won't matter at all, this is way past what the guy down the street thinks or wants. Blood in the water.
This should, though, have a bit of impact on people's view of "unfettered capitialism".
You just named a bunch of tight, expensive fetters on VW's profit motive!!
Sort of like we don't hear much about obscene oil profiteers when gasoline is $1.89 a gallon ... !
Lannis
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The difference with VW is that there was conspiracy, collusion or both, of the criminal type. When you load up a new map, that is likely in violation of federal law, same with the cat y pipe replacement s. However, you aren't doing it to make money by bypassing emissions regulations nor decieve the consumer. There is no real comparison here.
This is just starting, it isn't a matter of fixing the emissions controls. There are tax incentives, the mpg and emissions averages of their entire model lines, fraud and the list goes on and on. Years ago this might have been a fix, pay fine and forget it. Not these days. Now we're talking many billions of dollars, just in the US market.
Lots of VW owners are cult buyers too, like those buying Subaru's and so on. What the dedicated VW diesel owners say won't matter much and probably won't matter at all, this is way past what the guy down the street thinks or wants. Blood in the water.
The loyalists won't run away in droves is my point .
An old boss , when caught poring used oil on the ground stated , "Well hell , if they would just stop all of those big corporate polluters , us little guys could dump all of our oil on the ground" . Seems appropriate here .
Dusty
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They coulda cop'd a better deal had they better lawyers and lobbyists.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic046/dewey_cheatham_and_howe_zpsmeuddf8k.jpg)
:grin:
Yeah they needed to hire Heuy, Loui and Dewey.
They could also hire these guys for their coming defense:
Defense Attorney Justin Volk V
Defense Attorney II Heronimus B. Blind
Defense Attorney III Donnatella Dicoppas
Defense Attorney IV Gil T. Azell
On a side note, I'm looking to pick up some VW stock really cheap.......
(https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.HQopRw5TstvwngDYCqJCVg&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300)
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No doubt the cubicle workers have been assigned this project and the dirty laundry pile will only get bigger. Then in all fairness, those with ambition are looking into what other diesel car makers are doing.
The airbag thing was at first limited and then crossed manufacturer lines. The pressures to see who else might have done this must be immense. Then there are the little birds.
We can only hope that as a result, those concerned don't start looking at bikes as right now they aren't smog tested. That could be a game changer and these things have a way of being the catalyst for them.
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VW stock is a falling knife right now.
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Since when aren't MCs tested for emissions ?
Dusty
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Since when aren't MCs tested for emissions ?
Dusty
I mean after we buy them. It's illegal for me to modify my engine so that it no longer meets the original emissions standards, whether it's a car or motorcycle.
But all of us do it anyway. And unless you live in a county or city that requires an emissions test at inspection sticker time, no one is going to know ...
Lannis
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I mean after we buy them. It's illegal for me to modify my engine so that it no longer meets the original emissions standards, whether it's a car or motorcycle.
But all of us do it anyway. And unless you live in a county or city that requires an emissions test at inspection sticker time, no one is going to know ...
Lannis
Yeah , seems as though even Cal ee fornia has stopped testing MCs post sale . It's weird , I tend to leave my bikes stock other than maybe a handling mod or two . Of course , don't own anything new ...
Dusty
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If only Car Talk were still alive, they'd have a field day with this one! Considering the Tappet threads here, the Tappet Brothers might be laughing themselves silly!
Back on topic: Still no reply from the local VW dealer email from last night...curious, just curious how long it's going to take them to come up with a response. I might just have to roll on down there this afternoon to inquire discretely about a Diesel veee - hick - elllll. :)
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I keep the feeling they all do it more or less.
BTW: BMW makes very fine diesels. The 3.0 litr is powerfull and quiet.
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After causing the Colorado toxic waste release fiasco, the EPA is grabbing on to this with both hands as an ass covering/ deflection maneuver. I wish VW well. I like that little diesel.
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I mean after we buy them. It's illegal for me to modify my engine so that it no longer meets the original emissions standards, whether it's a car or motorcycle.
But all of us do it anyway. And unless you live in a county or city that requires an emissions test at inspection sticker time, no one is going to know ...
Lannis
Not quite all of us. I see no reason to deliberately disable emission controls on either my cars or motorcycles.
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Yeah , but so far no deaths have been linked to the VW debacle .
Dusty
Not directly linked, but in the aggregate, pollution kills.
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It's called 'plausible deniability"! :evil: Now, who came up with that term? :cool:
I believe that term was invented, or at least popularized, during the Reagan administration, referring to attempts to cover up whether the Chief knew about the Iran/contra deal (of course he did).
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Not quite all of us. I see no reason to deliberately disable emission controls on either my cars or motorcycles.
"All" was a bit too inclusive, then. I'm sure I've probably turned a painted screw somewhere, or slipped on a nice quiet muffler, without inquiring too closely as to whether it was completely legal or not ....
Lannis
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I believe that term was invented, or at least popularized, during the Reagan administration, referring to attempts to cover up whether the Chief knew about the Iran/contra deal (of course he did).
Actually, it was first used all the way back in Truman's time (shortly after their creation as an organization, I expect). It became known outside classified documents during the Kennedy administration.
I have a sneaky suspicion it was first conceived to handle a situation when a Cro-Magnon stole his buddy's haunch of meat!
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I keep the feeling they all do it more or less.
BTW: BMW makes very fine diesels. The 3.0 litr is powerfull and quiet.
Thanks Paul. I'm following the Vee Dub story pretty closely, as I've been a diesel car devotee for many years. All BMW.
The first one was a 335d 1st gen, which as the miles added up usually led to a head removal for professional cleaning; I think
they used blasted walnuts shells. I got rid of that car right before it was probably going to need the head cleaning. Current ride
is a leased 535d M-sport, the best car I've ever driven. It's so good, we are probably going to buy it outright after the Lease
runs its course. You're so right about that 3.0 liter; it's got 3 settings (Eco Pro, Comfort and Sport) which gives a nice choice
of running modes. You can opt for better mileage or better performance in the same car, sweet. So far, BMW hasn't been
tainted with the VW diesel disaster. :thumb:
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Not directly linked, but in the aggregate, pollution kills.
Complete agreement on that .
Actually, it was first used all the way back in Truman's time (shortly after their creation as an organization, I expect). It became known outside classified documents during the Kennedy administration.
I have a sneaky suspicion it was first conceived to handle a situation when a Cro-Magnon stole his buddy's haunch of meat!
"Agg , why you steal Ugh's mastodon leg ?" "No steal , only borrow , give it back when done ." Why everybody always pick on poor old Agg?"
Dusty
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Awwwwwww damnit , Lannis is right :shocked: :laugh: My guess is that VW will deal with this now that they have been outed , doubt if it will take them down . Talked to a friend this morning that has been driving VW diesels since '89 , now has a 2014 model . He just shrugged and indicated he would have the recall done and doubted the slight performance loss would be noticeable .
Dusty
I doubt that there will be any performance loss. But, I'll bet there is a fuel economy loss on the order of 20% or more. The main reason that I bought two TDI's was the fuel economy. I could've got hybrids, but, both my wife & I wanted manual transmissions, VW was the only high fuel economy option there, and VW was one of the few with a wagon with a manual transmission.
If we lose 20% of our fuel economy, coupled with the higher cost of diesel fuel, we paid for more our cars for zero, if not negative advantage.
AND, with that loss of fuel economy, resale value will be significantly hurt too. :angry:
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Jay , I'm not savvy enough to understand all of this . Why do you state that fuel economy will suffer ? Help out a layman here.
Dusty
Dusty, refer to reply #7 on page #1 of this thread, I explained it there.
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If we lose 20% of our fuel economy, coupled with the higher cost of diesel fuel, we paid for more our cars for zero, if not negative advantage.
[/quote]
? I know fuel prices vary wildly all over the place, but in my area (So Cal) Diesel is the cheapest fuel on the board. But a year or more ago, yeah, it was the highest by far. That stuff really fluctuates, eh?
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I see a big difference here between the issues with GM or Toyota and this issue with VW.
Having been involved with manufacturing products for close to 30 years I have sympathy with companies trying to figure out when/if to recall a product that, in reality, has a failure rate that is so small that it would never be noticed if they didn't sell millions of vehicles.
No component is perfect. some fail on occasion. If you sell 3 million cars and have couple hundred failures, it's a failure rate of 0.000066%. As these failures occur it's hard to tell when a problem goes from random component failure to systemic problem. Even when an engineer points out a potential weakness in a component, there will likely be other engineers who disagree and it's bound to take some time before a company issues a recall that is going to cost big $$$$. Compare that to things that Guzzi has experienced, such as hydro valve failures, etc. Those failure rates were hundreds of times greater but still took a fair amount of time to recognize and more time for fixes to be found and action to be taken.
I'm not excusing GM entirely but am somewhat sympathetic to a company not immediately reacting to something with an incredibly small rate of failure.
On the other hand, we have VW, who knowingly created software to get around emissions requirements. They knew what they were doing was illegal and unethical and they did it and kept on doing it year after year.
If the cars performance is reduced as a result of the software fix, I expect they'll be a major class action suit. If you bought a car based on a level of performance that was only possible due to illegal software, I would think that would make a good case and VW deserves whatever they get.
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I mean after we buy them. It's illegal for me to modify my engine so that it no longer meets the original emissions standards, whether it's a car or motorcycle.
But all of us do it anyway. And unless you live in a county or city that requires an emissions test at inspection sticker time, no one is going to know ...
Lannis
No, we don't ALL do it anyway. Don't paint me with your brush!
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If the cars performance is reduced as a result of the software fix, I expect they'll be a major class action suit. If you bought a car based on a level of performance that was only possible due to illegal software, I would think that would make a good case and VW deserves whatever they get.
I suspect this will happen, but, as class action suits go, the amount paid out to each car owner will be a pittance compared to the reduction in resale value of the car, and the increased operating costs over the life of the car.
The only true winners of a class action suit will be the lawyers.
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On the other hand, we have VW, who knowingly created software to get around emissions requirements. They knew what they were doing was illegal and unethical and they did it and kept on doing it year after year.
My money says that if VW is doing it, other carmakers are doing it. It's just a few lines of code.
With the ever stricter goals of the EPA, there has to be more than a couple of VW tech geeks who have thought of this work-around.
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No, we don't ALL do it anyway. Don't paint me with your brush!
I already retracted the "ALL" in several posts up above, after sib said he had never done it either ..... But of course, you have to read the posts to see it ....
Lannis
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This should, though, have a bit of impact on people's view of "unfettered capitialism".
You just named a bunch of tight, expensive fetters on VW's profit motive!!
Sort of like we don't hear much about obscene oil profiteers when gasoline is $1.89 a gallon ... !
Lannis
speaking of unfettered, look at this guy.
He bought a company that sold critical meds for $13 and raised the price to $750.
sorta a pencil neck.
Hedge fund manager Martin Shkreli is 32 years old but he’s acting half that age on Twitter today after news broke that his company, Turing Pharmaceuticals, had raised the price of the life-saving drug Daraprim from $13.50 to $750 per pill.
Daraprim is used to treat toxoplasmosis, a condition caused by a parasite that exists in nearly a quarter of the U.S. population over age 12, but which can prove deadly for the unborn children of pregnant women and for immunocompromised individuals like AIDS patients. These vulnerable populations will now have to pay over 5,000 percent more for their treatment.
(http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/5600393f9dd7cc0f008bbd4e-716-537/screen%20shot%202015-09-21%20at%2011.42.12%20am.png)
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/21/martin-shkreli-is-big-pharma-s-biggest-asshole.html
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oopps, this discussion just ran off into the weeds...
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speaking of unfettered, look at this guy.
He bought a company that sold critical meds for $13 and raised the price to $750.
sorta a pencil neck.
Hedge fund manager Martin Shkreli is 32 years old but he�s acting half that age on Twitter today after news broke that his company, Turing Pharmaceuticals, had raised the price of the life-saving drug Daraprim from $13.50 to $750 per pill.
Daraprim is used to treat toxoplasmosis, a condition caused by a parasite that exists in nearly a quarter of the U.S. population over age 12, but which can prove deadly for the unborn children of pregnant women and for immunocompromised individuals like AIDS patients. These vulnerable populations will now have to pay over 5,000 percent more for their treatment.
(http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/5600393f9dd7cc0f008bbd4e-716-537/screen%20shot%202015-09-21%20at%2011.42.12%20am.png)
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/21/martin-shkreli-is-big-pharma-s-biggest-asshole.html
Yep, bad day for Big Corporate everywhere.
The market and public opinion will kill this guy. You can't do something that stupid, that affects this many people, with the weak excuses he's got, and get away with it.
Watch, I'll bet he DOESN'T get away with it .... !
Lannis
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we can only hope.........
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Same here Tris, mine is a 6 speed manual as well. If I'm cruising on the highway, I can see upwards of 46 to 48mpg...a few weeks ago, I did Houston to Austin and back (around 350 miles) and averaged 46 mpg. Not too shabby!
When the EPA forces VW to replace your ECU to provide the correct emmissions on the road, you'll still have an average of 46mpg but the Houston to Austin will take a little longer on your newly restricted 40hp car :boozing:
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I may get flamed here, but I don't see much difference in this and the way maps come from the factory already. The factory does indeed program for a set of test parameters from the EPA, be it a certain speed or RPM do they not. VW just took it another step and gave us the map as it should be without any tricks to pass emissions.
My 2012 Griso had a big flat spot below 3000rpm, turned out to be mostly retarded ignition. That map was sold with the bike to pass emissions.
I for one like the way VW did it, no need to toss stuff off and get a remap to make it run! Couse, EPA and governments will not buy it, but nice try anyway.
P.S. Oh, and yes the KTM 1190 also has that flat spot about the same RPMs, but not as bad or noticeable. Still you must climb above 3800 rpm or so to get in the real pull zone of the engine.
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I already retracted the "ALL" in several posts up above, after sib said he had never done it either ..... But of course, you have to read the posts to see it ....
Lannis
Your comments are such an unrelenting torrent of pessimistic cynicism that they're impossible to endure in their entirety. So I spot read occasionally rather than read the endless derivations of the same tedious sermon. This one jumped out at me, and WG has beaten the EPS/DOT/hold my beer while I mod this/ to death long enough that you knew everybody doesn't do it before your wrote that they do -- but it would so suit your argument if they did . . . . Perhaps if you didn't continually try to justify your warped life view by claiming I agree with it we wouldn't have these misunderstandings.
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Do you think VW is really as arrogant as they appear? Surely, at some point in the last six years, someone said, "What if we get caught?" Do you think they have an out? I can't help but think there may be some grand design we're not seeing. I could easily be wrong. Maybe I've been watching too many complicated TV/movie plots, but I have to wonder.
Your answer here, Hitler's reaction to the VW-EPA scandal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKef1JFpiCA
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Your comments are such an unrelenting torrent of pessimistic cynicism that they're impossible to endure in their entirety. So I spot read occasionally rather than read the endless derivations of the same tedious sermon. This one jumped out at me, and WG has beaten the EPS/DOT/hold my beer while I mod this/ to death long enough that you knew everybody doesn't do it before your wrote that they do -- but it would so suit your argument if they did . . . . Perhaps if you didn't continually try to justify your warped life view by claiming I agree with it we wouldn't have these misunderstandings.
I totally agree with you on this!
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After causing the Colorado toxic waste release fiasco, the EPA is grabbing on to this with both hands as an ass covering/ deflection maneuver. I wish VW well. I like that little diesel.
I sense a black helicopter new world order conspiracy theory blossoming here.
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Your comments are such an unrelenting torrent of pessimistic cynicism that they're impossible to endure in their entirety. So I spot read occasionally rather than read the endless derivations of the same tedious sermon. This one jumped out at me, and WG has beaten the EPS/DOT/hold my beer while I mod this/ to death long enough that you knew everybody doesn't do it before your wrote that they do -- but it would so suit your argument if they did . . . . Perhaps if you didn't continually try to justify your warped life view by claiming I agree with it we wouldn't have these misunderstandings.
Idunno, I'm usually one of the first to jump on Lannis but I like to read his posts, and often they're not pessimistic or cynical at all.
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Media willfoam at the mouth, some heads will roll, stock will drop and bounce back, and when all is said and done it will be much ado about very little. We will all forget and move on.
-AJ
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Jay , after a quick read of your explanation , still not sure where the 20% figure is coming from . Dang , what a great conversation , even a dummy like me is learning something :thumb:
Dusty
Because TDI's regularly exceed EPA MPG ratings in real world use, where many, many other cars can't even return the EPA ratings (in real world use). The 20% number was just a rectal number, but, based on real vs. EPA numbers, and seeing real vs. EPA numbers for other make & models, the difference is often as high as 20%. To get EPA numbers out of most vehicles, esp. hybrids, you have to drive like a little old lady. The TDI, not so. I get EPA highway numbers at 75 MPH. The EPA tests not just emissions, but, MPG under the same test conditions, which, in order to pass NOx emissions were running more EGR and more frequent DPF regens, both of which burn more fuel.
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Media willfoam at the mouth, some heads will roll, stock will drop and bounce back, and when all is said and done it will be much ado about very little. We will all forget and move on.
-AJ
Yes, unless you own one or more of the cars and lose the very thing (efficiency) that you bought your TDI for, and also lose thousands in resale value. Then, you won't forget.
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When the EPA forces VW to replace your ECU to provide the correct emmissions on the road, you'll still have an average of 46mpg but the Houston to Austin will take a little longer on your newly restricted 40hp car :boozing:
Good one...this might turn into a first. I'll have to ride the Norge with 90 hp while towing the Passat with 40 hp! Now wouldn't that cause a few double takes! Pretty soon I'd have the :copcar: after me...and I could just refer them to Volkswagen AG for an explanation!
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Your comments are such an unrelenting torrent of pessimistic cynicism that they're impossible to endure in their entirety. So I spot read occasionally rather than read the endless derivations of the same tedious sermon. This one jumped out at me, and WG has beaten the EPS/DOT/hold my beer while I mod this/ to death long enough that you knew everybody doesn't do it before your wrote that they do -- but it would so suit your argument if they did . . . . Perhaps if you didn't continually try to justify your warped life view by claiming I agree with it we wouldn't have these misunderstandings.
I hate having these misunderstandings myself, but if you see my posts as an "unrelenting torrent of pessimistic cynicism", there's not much I can do about that. I don't think I see life as a pessimistic cynic, but somehow it comes across that way to you.
I do read most of YOUR posts in their entirety, although you must admit that you get into tirade-mode yourself occasionally. If I appear to be claiming that you "agree" with me somehow, that's another unintended consequence.
I've been trying to do my part to keep things peaceful - you'll notice that this is the first post of yours to which I've responded directly in several months, because this is the consequence every time. I don't want it to be like that, but I don't have a lot of control over the responses.
So I'll go back to "half-duplex" mode on the communication thing, and maybe it won't raise so much ire .....
Lannis
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Reading the news, I notice that VW has already set already aside some $7.3B. I don't think locating the money and arriving at that figure was done out of the hat.
VW must've had an indemnity value predetermined. That indicates that this scheme was preplanned with "German Precision" (and lots of fingerprints).
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Idunno, I'm usually one of the first to jump on Lannis but I like to read his posts, and often they're not pessimistic or cynical at all.
*shrug*
I guess if you share his reality that would be true. :smiley:
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Because TDI's regularly exceed EPA MPG ratings in real world use, where many, many other cars can't even return the EPA ratings (in real world use). The 20% number was just a rectal number, but, based on real vs. EPA numbers, and seeing real vs. EPA numbers for other make & models, the difference is often as high as 20%. To get EPA numbers out of most vehicles, esp. hybrids, you have to drive like a little old lady. The TDI, not so. I get EPA highway numbers at 75 MPH. The EPA tests not just emissions, but, MPG under the same test conditions, which, in order to pass NOx emissions were running more EGR and more frequent DPF regens, both of which burn more fuel.
Related tangent.
In the past almost decade since the EPA mileage revisions most of our NA gas card have been able to meet or exceed standards, ESPECIALLY when not running winter reformulation fuels.
This includes mostly Subarus and Jeeps, but even our 2.5 ton Jeep GC rated at I think 16/23 but that regularly returns around 20, but with a range of 18-26.
In contrast I've read reports that late-model small gas turbo motors regularly do better in EPA tests than can be duplicated in the real world.
Our only personal data point is our 1.6L DIT Juke which, at about a full ton lighter than the Jeep) only returns an average of about 24 mpg with a range of 22-27, but a rating of 25/30.
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Yes, unless you own one or more of the cars and lose the very thing (efficiency) that you bought your TDI for, and also lose thousands in resale value. Then, you won't forget.
I don't think it wil be that drastic.
We'll see!
-AJ
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I don't think it wil be that drastic.
We'll see!
-AJ
If it's not that drastic, why would they risk billions in fines?
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Cheating the system to get better emission readings is sneaky.
I got one of the trucks with a grenade brand air bag - well it is the passenger side only according to the safety notice.
If the accident dont kill you the air bag will. Lives verses money.
One guy here in Canada was caught rebuilding airbags with black powder and they were found to be sometimes lethal!
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/explosive%20wall%20opener_zpsi4iix7hl.jpg)
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I'm kinda wondering why the EPA doesn't test vehicles on a closed course but mimicking some real world examples of driving, surely the technology exists to do that. If the fines go into the billions of which there seems to be little doubt, that can't buy the technologies to do that?
Then, it would be nearly impossible to detect a test mode as there would be in some static place. There would still be some standard which could be repeated.
Obviously VW puts a value on bragging rights or they wouldn't have done this. Some people might say it doesn't matter to them but they did buy them and the specs and claims had to have something to do with the purchasing decision. If the VWs drove like slugs compared to other cars, that would probably affect sales since performance was a big part of the marketing.
Dash Auto ist flasch.
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My prediction is that each person who bought a VW diesel with the enhanced features will be offered a check of $3750.00 plus the fix. That amount could be in the form of a credit, some cash or an option to trade in or return the car for the original purchase amount.
VW could remove the feature and resell the car .
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Well, being a New Englander (for two more days) my experience with deflating the numbers is biblical in nature and I say bully* bully to VW. Or perhaps, try- try again? Sehr gute. I also have some video equipment I can let go really cheap. :grin:
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Can you tell what speeds you drive at to get those figures?
Are you going off the trip computer or actually doing the calculations at the pump?
70 MPG (UK) is on the motorway at 70 MPH in 6th
However, its all off the trip computer in the car. Still I filled up to day so its about time I did the calcs properly!!
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<snip>And there is no tailpipe testing of a car running on the road, for obvious reasons. $$$$ for a start. So some clever person figured out that a certain suite of sensor inputs would occur only during certification testing, and took it from there… <snip>
cr
Although a few times around here, I have seen a van set up on the edge of a merge ramp onto the highway with a sign out and a sniffer along the edge of the road. There is technology out there being used today. How accurate it is, probably open for debate. But they're not chasing anybody down after they go by, so I'm assuming it is a study being conducted. Something like that could easily raise a red flag and get someone to look harder at vehicles that continuously fail to meet emissions.
John Henry
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If it's not that drastic, why would they risk billions in fines?
:1:
:copcar:
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What I have been hearing is the emissions exceeded the standard by around 35 times. I would call that drastic. (Note that is the standard, not against how the car performs in testing which may be below the standard.) I'm also assuming the "standard" is what vehicle manufacturers are expected to meet.
John Henry
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If it's not that drastic, why would they risk billions in fines?
That isn't what I said. I said that I don't think that the problem for current owners and loss of resale value will be as drastic as Jas67 described.
-AJ
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Given this incident, I don't think it's much of a stretch to think that the proprietary software in electronic voting machines may be similarly corrupted.
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Given this incident, I don't think it's much of a stretch to think that the proprietary software in electronic voting machines may be similarly corrupted.
I think it's a given. Now that people can vote by mail or Internet, and electronic voting machines can be jiggered, it's going to get to be where "elections" aren't worth much .... and some people want it that way.
Sort of like over the past 20 years as people have started dealing with the Internet. You have to spend as much time writing software to protect against scams as you do writing software to do your business .... When I got paper mail, .1% of them were scams. When I get Email, 50% of them are scams ....
VW couldn't have done this on a 1967 Type 1 ...
Lannis
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That isn't what I said. I said that I don't think that the problem for current owners and loss of resale value will be as drastic as Jas67 described.
Ahhh, my misunderstanding, sorry.
No opinion on resale.
I think it could go either way.
The ones that escape having to be reflashed (if the reflash makes such a big difference in economy) might become more desired/more expensive.
Of course, if the whole US diesel market (which was just beginning to grow) takes a hit, then it could be bad overall.
Around here diesel has been as much as $1 more (close to double) regular octane gas for a year or two (though a search this morning shows more like only $0.30-0.50 more right now).
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.... When I got paper mail, .1% of them were scams. When I get Email, 50% of them are scams ....
My experience is different. On the internet, most of the spam email I get automatically goes into my trash file, never to be seen and I don't have to bother with it or manually sort it. With paper mail, 80% or more of mine is "std rate", meaning spam, charity solicitations, ads, etc. I do have to manually sort it, but anything that doesn't have first class postage goes directly into the recycle bin without even being opened.
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My experience is different. On the internet, most of the spam email I get automatically goes into my trash file, never to be seen and I don't have to bother with it or manually sort it. With paper mail, 80% or more of mine is "std rate", meaning spam, charity solicitations, ads, etc. I do have to manually sort it, but anything that isn't first class postage goes directly into the recycle bin without even being opened.
That's a good point. I often get the mail at the curb, and stop at the recycling pail on the way up the driveway. Yesterday not a single piece (of the dozen) made it to the HOUSE. That's typical.
I think almost every one of our bills and most of the important stuff all comes electronically now. It's rare that something arrives in the mail that matters. Except yesterday the parts I ordered to switch the refrigerator door from left opening to right opening arrived, that was cool. :thumb:
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That isn't what I said. I said that I don't think that the problem for current owners and loss of resale value will be as drastic as Jas67 described.
-AJ
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Most, if not all, people who chose to purchase a VW Diesel made that choice based on fuel economy. When I bought our two, I certainly did. Prices on used ones were MUCH higher than same model and similarly optioned gas powered ones, that difference being actually MORE than additional cost of the diesel option on a NEW one, as much as $4-5k. The used prices were so high that, at least for me, it didn't even make sense to buy used, as for less than $5k more than the price of a several year old used one with 50-80k miles on it, I got new.
On average, diesel fuel (in the US) costs about 15-25% more than regular unleaded gasoline (the higher end of that range for colder climates where diesel competes with heating fuel stocks in the winter). The TDI gets 30-40% better fuel economy in real world driving than the gas powered same model cars. Fuel costs takes away about half this savings. If the re-program drops the fuel economy even 10%, then, operating costs become real close to the being the same as the gas-powered equivalent. At that point, there is no advantage to the diesel, and sometimes a disadvantage, as there are always some stations that don't sell diesel, and those that do, might only have it on one pump, resulting in sometimes a longer wait for a pump, when some inconsiderate person leaves their car at the pump to go inside and buy snacks, drinks, etc.
If I were to let them install the recall, and my fuel economy drops to a level were I lose the cost advantage, I would want at least $4k from VW to compensate me for the loss. I would then sell both cars and switch makes.
The 2012 Jetta Sportwagon that my wife was driving was our first ever VW. We got got my 2013 Golf (also a TDI) 1 1/2 years later. Before that, I was a loyal BMW customer for 12 years. After this, I can say that I likely won't be buying another VW product. I might go back to buying used BMW's, or maybe go Ford or Jap INC. It all depends on who makes a car I like with a manual transmission (which, of course, gets harder as each year goes by).
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The ones that escape having to be reflashed (if the reflash makes such a big difference in economy) might become more desired/more expensive.
Of course, if the whole US diesel market (which was just beginning to grow) takes a hit, then it could be bad overall.
Mark my word, this will kill it.
I'll bet that VW stops selling the TDI here altogether.
They've already got one hybrid (Jetta Hybrid), and are about to introduce the Golf E all-electric to our market. Those will be their high-efficiency offerings form now on, just like all the other makes.
Our gov't strongly favors hyrids and electrics over diesel. This is the final nail in the coffin of diesel passenger vehicles in the US.
After this, diesel is going to get another bad stigma among consumers. No other automakers will bother to bring any other diesel passenger vehicles to our market.
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If I were to let them install the recall, and my fuel economy drops to a level were I lose the cost advantage, I would want at least $4k from VW to compensate me for the loss. I would then sell both cars and switch makes.
The 2012 Jetta Sportwagon that my wife was driving was our first ever VW. We got got my 2013 Golf (also a TDI) 1 1/2 years later. Before that, I was a loyal BMW customer for 12 years. After this, I can say that I likely won't be buying another VW product. I might go back to buying used BMW's, or maybe go Ford or Jap INC. It all depends on who makes a car I like with a manual transmission (which, of course, gets harder as each year goes by).
Why switch from VW if you like the cars?
How are you personally affected by this corporate level fiasco?
Your car is still the car you bought, is it not?
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Most, if not all, people who chose to purchase a VW Diesel made that choice based on fuel economy. When I bought our two, I certainly did. Prices on used ones were MUCH higher than same model and similarly optioned gas powered ones, that difference being actually MORE than additional cost of the diesel option on a NEW one, as much as $4-5k. The used prices were so high that, at least for me, it didn't even make sense to buy used, as for less than $5k more than the price of a several year old used one with 50-80k miles on it, I got new.
On average, diesel fuel (in the US) costs about 15-25% more than regular unleaded gasoline (the higher end of that range for colder climates where diesel competes with heating fuel stocks in the winter). The TDI gets 30-40% better fuel economy in real world driving than the gas powered same model cars. Fuel costs takes away about half this savings. If the re-program drops the fuel economy even 10%, then, operating costs become real close to the being the same as the gas-powered equivalent. At that point, there is no advantage to the diesel, and sometimes a disadvantage, as there are always some stations that don't sell diesel, and those that do, might only have it on one pump, resulting in sometimes a longer wait for a pump, when some inconsiderate person leaves their car at the pump to go inside and buy snacks, drinks, etc.
If I were to let them install the recall, and my fuel economy drops to a level were I lose the cost advantage, I would want at least $4k from VW to compensate me for the loss. I would then sell both cars and switch makes.
The 2012 Jetta Sportwagon that my wife was driving was our first ever VW. We got got my 2013 Golf (also a TDI) 1 1/2 years later. Before that, I was a loyal BMW customer for 12 years. After this, I can say that I likely won't be buying another VW product. I might go back to buying used BMW's, or maybe go Ford or Jap INC. It all depends on who makes a car I like with a manual transmission (which, of course, gets harder as each year goes by).
Go back to the top where I state I OWN a 2009 Jetta TDI. I'm not as ignorant as your preaching might indicate.
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Why switch from VW if you like the cars?
How are you personally affected by this corporate level fiasco?
Your car is still the car you bought, is it not?
My feelings exactly!
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Why switch from VW if you like the cars?
How are you personally affected by this corporate level fiasco?
Your car is still the car you bought, is it not?
Well, right now there aren't state required tail-pipe sniffs. But if there are. Or if he has to return to the dealer for warranty work. Or the reflash is somehow otherwise mandated and he loses his fuel economy, then he's personally effected.
Either way he's personally effected if the value of the vehicles plummet and he ever wants to get out from under them.
Go back to the top where I state I OWN a 2009 Jetta TDI. I'm not as ignorant as your preaching might indicate.
If I know Jay, he's not preaching, he's venting.
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Mark my word, this will kill it.
I'll bet that VW stops selling the TDI here altogether.
They've already got one hybrid (Jetta Hybrid), and are about to introduce the Golf E all-electric to our market. Those will be their high-efficiency offerings form now on, just like all the other makes.
Our gov't strongly favors hyrids and electrics over diesel. This is the final nail in the coffin of diesel passenger vehicles in the US.
After this, diesel is going to get another bad stigma among consumers. No other automakers will bother to bring any other diesel passenger vehicles to our market.
I disagree somewhat. Diesel has been off to a rough 30-year start in the USA, for two reasons:
1) People always associated diesels with large trucks, and economy figures don't matter to people paying $2.00 a gallon for fuel.
2) GM screwed the pooch in the early 80's with their 350 ci small block diesel "conversions" that all blew sky high.
And I doubt if most people (aside from us motorheads) will know or care anything about VWs corporate hijinks when they go to buy a car.
In Europe, you can buy a small diesel car that will get 65 MPG and perform very well. The ONLY reason those don't sell here is because automotive fuel is still so dirt-cheap here, and people have so much disposable income, that it's nothing to them to spend $50K on a huge pickup or SUV that gets 20 MPG and use it to take the kids to elementary school (passing the school bus on the way).
If that ever changes, diesels are going to be the way to go ....
BUT! Time Will Tell, all we can do here is present the argument, sit back, and watch history unfold .....
Lannis
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Why switch from VW if you like the cars?
How are you personally affected by this corporate level fiasco?
Your car is still the car you bought, is it not?
If the car no longer performs as was sold to me, then, not, it is no longer the car that I bought. If it because more expensive to operate (MPG drop due to the recall "fix"), then, the premium that I paid to get a more efficient car is money wasted. That is something that I deserve to be compensated for.
I might not switch cars immediately, but, will be less likely to give VW my business again in the future.
Time will tell. Maybe the EPA will require VW to install a "fix" that doesn't drop MPG. That would likely be a urea injection system, which would be a huge expensive to VW, but, that isn't my problem. If, in the end, the car still performs as it did when I bought it, both in terms of HP/torque, and also MPG, then, I'll be satisfied.
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Go back to the top where I state I OWN a 2009 Jetta TDI. I'm not as ignorant as your preaching might indicate.
Preach?
Where do you think that I indicate that you are ignorant?
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My experience is different. On the internet, most of the spam email I get automatically goes into my trash file, never to be seen and I don't have to bother with it or manually sort it. With paper mail, 80% or more of mine is "std rate", meaning spam, charity solicitations, ads, etc. I do have to manually sort it, but anything that doesn't have first class postage goes directly into the recycle bin without even being opened.
Yep. Come to think of it, spam has blossomed in all media. My ISP does a great job of junking Email spam so I never see it, but it's still there, and we still spend a LOT on software to prevent our personal information being hacked or our systems just maliciously destroyed and vandalized .... I can still mail a check by just sticking it in my mailbox and having it handled like it was 50 years ago without fearing that someone will steal it. I have to take WAY more precautions on line, lest someone steal my bank information, etc ....
Lannis
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Well, right now there aren't state required tail-pipe sniffs. But if there are. Or if he has to return to the dealer for warranty work. Or the reflash is somehow otherwise mandated and he loses his fuel economy, then he's personally effected.
Either way he's personally effected if the value of the vehicles plummet and he ever wants to get out from under them.
Exactly.
It would be real easy for the update to be mandated. The People's Republic of Kalifornia requires that all recalls be complied with in order for registration to be renewed. Other states may also require this. And, as all things emissions related go, as California goes, so go the other states eventually.
I might get away with not letting them reflash the car this year, or next, but, eventually, I might be forced to comply. I typically keep my cars for 6-9 years. It wouldn't surprise me that sometime during my ownership of the car that I'm forced to comply.
Even if I don't comply, if the public perception of the the model TDIs that I have get no better fuel economy due to the recall, that will reduce the demand for them, and reduce the resale price.
Yes, Kev, I am venting. I am pretty pissed (angry, not drunk for those tuning in from the UK, Australia, or NZ) about this. :angry:
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Why switch from VW if you like the cars?
How are you personally affected by this corporate level fiasco?
Your car is still the car you bought, is it not?
probably won't be the same car after the ECUs of all these cars get reprogrammed.
I'll bet it will some type of mandatory regulation where they'll put a scarlet letter on those cars to make them street legal anywhere in the US. Don't be surprised if the consumer will have no choice in the matter.
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Having test ridden a TDI Sportwagen I was very interested in the planned import of the VW Alltrack to give competition to the Subaru Outback. Can't imagine that is going to happen, at least in the form of a diesel or for that matter in the gas version either. Too bad.
In terms of resale value of the currently owned TDI's, I would do as I do with Guzzi's. Keep them as long as possible and you won't be so disappointed in the resale value.
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I disagree somewhat. Diesel has been off to a rough 30-year start in the USA, for two reasons:
1) People always associated diesels with large trucks, and economy figures don't matter to people paying $2.00 a gallon for fuel.
2) GM screwed the pooch in the early 80's with their 350 ci small block diesel "conversions" that all blew sky high.
Agreed. BUT, diesels were starting to gain some acceptance, though, they were still pretty niche.
Hybrids are gaining acceptance a LOT more, and will soon dominate the passenger vehicle market in the US. All electrics with take hold once the range issues are addressed and public fast charging is wide spread.
And I doubt if most people (aside from us motorheads) will know or care anything about VWs corporate hijinks when they go to buy a car.
In Europe, you can buy a small diesel car that will get 65 MPG and perform very well. The ONLY reason those don't sell here is because automotive fuel is still so dirt-cheap here, and people have so much disposable income, that it's nothing to them to spend $50K on a huge pickup or SUV that gets 20 MPG and use it to take the kids to elementary school (passing the school bus on the way).
Yes, gas guzzlers still sell very well in the US, because, relative to the rest of the world, fuel is cheap. But, hybrids are becoming quite common on the roads. There are a LOT of hybrids other than the Prius and the Prius-looking Honda Insight. You might not realize just how many are on the road. Many people are making less real income than they did before the financial crisis, and taxes, fees, and other things keep going up. Because of this, many Americans ARE becoming more cost conscious in their buying decisions.
If that ever changes, diesels are going to be the way to go ....
Diesels won't be the way to go in the US for passenger cars. Hybrids have already won that war. Diesels will become more prevalent in light trucks, where they need the power and torque for hauling and towing. A hybrid might not have enough battery capacity to maintain speed with a heavy load up a long grade.
For the majority of US consumers, hybrids are just as good as diesels, if not better. Most American drivers could care less about a manual transmission, or even how fun a car is to drive. For most, cars are just appliances. Eventually, when autonomous self-driving cars are a reality, the vast texting masses will embrace them, while driving enthusiasts will loath the day they become mandatory.
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In terms of resale value of the currently owned TDI's, I would do as I do with Guzzi's. Keep them as long as possible and you won't be so disappointed in the resale value.
That was my plan, but, it if they no longer performs as expected in terms of MPG or (power) performance, I'm no longer interested in keeping them, and will feel ripped off.
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I still think something else is behind this. Ferdinand Piech tried to oust Winterkorn earlier this month and failed. I'm sure there are some "I told you so's" coming up at the board meeting today. I think there is a Porsche-VW power struggle going on and Piech wants his company back. These guys don't care about cars or customers. They get paid no matter what. It's about power.
I'm sure Piech has enough invested in stock options that he didn't have any desire in this going public and decimating the stock as it has.
UNLESS he had a lot of stock shorted.
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I disagree somewhat. Diesel has been off to a rough 30-year start in the USA, for two reasons:
1) People always associated diesels with large trucks, and economy figures don't matter to people paying $2.00 a gallon for fuel.
2) GM screwed the pooch in the early 80's with their 350 ci small block diesel "conversions" that all blew sky high.
And I doubt if most people (aside from us motorheads) will know or care anything about VWs corporate hijinks when they go to buy a car.
In Europe, you can buy a small diesel car that will get 65 MPG and perform very well. The ONLY reason those don't sell here is because automotive fuel is still so dirt-cheap here, and people have so much disposable income, that it's nothing to them to spend $50K on a huge pickup or SUV that gets 20 MPG and use it to take the kids to elementary school (passing the school bus on the way).
If that ever changes, diesels are going to be the way to go ....
BUT! Time Will Tell, all we can do here is present the argument, sit back, and watch history unfold .....
Lannis
Agreed. Time is really the major factor.
Most of the billions VW is setting aside will most likely be to settle investor law suits. I think only a fraction will be for actually dealing with the problem, eventual fines and owner lawsuits. Strictly my opinion.
Keep in mind:
Ford Pinto (which begat the Escort which begat the Focus) lawsuits and recalls, people kept buying.
Massive Toyota recall just a few years ago, people keep buying.
Massive GM recalls currently, people keep buying.
Ford rollover recalls, people kept buying.
And those were just a few huge SAFETY recalls. This is an EPA issue, much less tooth.
So we will see. I think it's way, way to early to say the sky is falling. In the meantime, I'm just going to keep driving, keep enjoying that I can still drive 500 miles on one tank, and enjoy the thrill that diesel is a dollar less than it was when I bought my car and now less than premium where I live. :thumb:
-AJ
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And those were just a few huge SAFETY recalls. This is an EPA issue, much less tooth.
This was DELIBERATE, and will haunt the public perception and trust of the company for a long time.
So we will see. I think it's way, way to early to say the sky is falling. In the meantime, I'm just going to keep driving, keep enjoying that I can still drive 500 miles on one tank, and enjoy the thrill that diesel is a dollar less than it was when I bought my car and now less than premium where I live. :thumb:
-AJ
Yes, as you an Lannis have both said, time will tell. It is way too early to say what is going to happen. Yes, I too will keep enjoying and driving my cars. As I stated above, hopefully, the EPA will mandate that VW's update NOT affect fuel real economy and that they install urea injection, or at least that VW is forced to compensate owners in real dollars the real loss of value of the vehicles in terms of true operating costs.
In the meantime, I'll just ride more! :bike-037:
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You guys are already aware that there is a custom ECU/tuning industry for TDIs? You can already change this stuff aftermarket. That industry should see market growth. Of course it comes with the same "illegal to modify emissions, off road use only" caveats, but then how many threads are on here about reflashing Guzzi ECUs?
-AJ
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I think there is a big difference AJ. The niche for VW is the environmentally conscious and savvy consumer.
I won't say the VW is ruined but this a huge hit. It's really a betrayal and makes those environmentally conscious and savvy consumers look gullible. That's unforgivable for people that like to feel that they are smarter and better informed. It's like being a banker and falling for a Ponzi scam.
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I think there is a big difference AJ. The niche for VW is the environmentally conscious and savvy consumer.
I won't say the VW is ruined but this a huge hit. It's really a betrayal and makes those environmentally conscious and savvy consumers look gullible. That's unforgivable for people that like to feel that they are smarter and better informed. It's like being a banker and falling for a Ponzi scam.
We'll see. I can envision EPA reset packages sold on eBay. Craiglist ads "listing non-EPA TDI" and commanding a higher price, etc.
-AJ
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This article is up at http://justacarguy.blogspot.ca/2015/09/fast-indepth-look-at-vw-smog-cheat-news.html
Billions! How much is that?
:shocked:
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Quote from: jas67 on Today at 06:19:42 AM
This was DELIBERATE, and will haunt the public perception and trust of the company for a long time.
Maybe. Maybe not. VW fooled the government/EPA. Many of us would like to do the same (and not get caught).
Did they not lie to consumers as well? Was not performance / mileage supposed to be ICW gov regs?
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Yep, if I had the TDI VW, I would be smiling. No reflash needed, already got the best ECU map available. Recall, no thanks.
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This article is up at http://justacarguy.blogspot.ca/2015/09/fast-indepth-look-at-vw-smog-cheat-news.html
Billions! How much is that?
:shocked:
I was expecting a picture! :popcorn:
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More than a few people these days get more upset about environmental issues than safety issues. They see them much the same correlating damage to the environment to their personal well being and this safety.
Children in school are being taught that environmental concerns are more important than many other things and this is already evident in the current generation of car shoppers. There is also a pretty big difference between how people think of this when comparing those in say California vs states like Texas.
When cars like the Pinto were involved in safety issues, the car market wasn't nearly as globalized as it is now and the fines weren't in the billions either.
VW might be in for a hard road.
The new buyers of the brand aren't the same as the loyalists of yesteryear who still drive the old VW bus with no heater and one windshield wiper. Some of the VW owners here will stand by VW but then they own Moto Guzzis too. A different mindset than the typical consumer.
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Yep, if I had the TDI VW, I would be smiling. No reflash needed, already got the best ECU map available. Recall, no thanks.
It is unlikely you will be able to avoid it. After being notified of the recall and the money involved expect some kind of enforcement to get the fix installed too.
Never underestimate the ingenuity of government. I bet that if you got the recall notice that said you'd be held personally liable for the violation if you didn't get the recall performed that you'd be right in line with everyone else to get er done.
Cars have to be registered, you need to show proof of insurance. Not too hard to match up something so dear and near to the govt as this recall when it happens. Get a notice that says either prove you had the recall or get fined (it would be in the tens of thousands) and watch how fast people stand in line for the fix.
Its an environmental thing.
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More than a few people these days get more upset about environmental issues than safety issues. They see them much the same correlating damage to the environment to their personal well being and this safety.
Possibly true, but a contradicting factor is the number of huge, oversized vehicles on the road that people purchase NOT because they are the most environmentally sensitive, but because they are the most comfortable, and the most likely to ensure that the driver and passengers will survive the wreck, even if they cause it because they are swaddled in an insulated, "hands-free" environment ....
A child may get taught in school about snail darters and save-the-whales, but when they are driven to the school a mile in a Cadillac Escalade that sits there and idles for 20 minutes, they'll pick up on that pretty quick .... Do as I say, not as I do doesn't work ever ...
Lannis
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It is unlikely you will be able to avoid it. After being notified of the recall and the money involved expect some kind of enforcement to get the fix installed too.
Never underestimate the ingenuity of government. I bet that if you got the recall notice that said you'd be held personally liable for the violation if you didn't get the recall performed that you'd be right in line with everyone else to get er done.
Cars have to be registered, you need to show proof of insurance. Not too hard to match up something so dear and near to the govt as this recall when it happens. Get a notice that says either prove you had the recall or get fined (it would be in the tens of thousands) and watch how fast people stand in line for the fix.
Its an environmental thing.
All possible, but I expect it will take years to get to that point. By that time no telling what the next construction zone will look like on the local interstate. They can't keep up either.
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All possible, but I expect it will take years to get to that point. By that time no telling what the next construction zone will look like on the local interstate. They can't keep up either.
I agree, don't rush to the dealer. There are 500,000 VW vehicles over 6 years affected. The EPA lists 14,000,000 light car and truck recalls for emissions for 2009-2011. That's quite a backlog. I live two hours plus from the nearest dealership. They don't send the police to your house to drag your car in for these kind of things.
-AJ
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It is unlikely you will be able to avoid it. After being notified of the recall and the money involved expect some kind of enforcement to get the fix installed too.
Never underestimate the ingenuity of government. I bet that if you got the recall notice that said you'd be held personally liable for the violation if you didn't get the recall performed that you'd be right in line with everyone else to get er done.
Cars have to be registered, you need to show proof of insurance. Not too hard to match up something so dear and near to the govt as this recall when it happens. Get a notice that says either prove you had the recall or get fined (it would be in the tens of thousands) and watch how fast people stand in line for the fix.
Its an environmental thing.
Only in Kalifornia.
There is no system in place to enforce something like your grand scheme, in most of The Country.
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Only in Kalifornia.
There is no system in place to enforce something like your grand scheme, in most of The Country.
You don't need to register your car? I thought that was the case in all 50 states. When registering a vehicle you need prove nothing?
Something like " Don't forget to provide proof of your VW Diesel recall fulfillment" wouldn't call you to action?
It wouldn't take very much to do that, what with the more than 10 billion flowing into government coffers from the fines and environmentalists getting involved? They got you to buy insurance and prove you have it didn't they?
The system is in place, you already participate in it.
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Well, I'll be curious to see how the cars perform after being reflashed and all the ranting dies down. No none here knows how it will roll out.
Glad to see anothe Piech conspiracy theorist besides me. I think this whole thing will be a fond memory in a year or so.
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You don't need to register your car? I thought that was the case in all 50 states. When registering a vehicle you need prove nothing?
Something like " Don't forget to provide proof of your VW Diesel recall fulfillment" wouldn't call you to action?
It wouldn't take very much to do that, what with the more than 10 billion flowing into government coffers from the fines and environmentalists getting involved? They got you to buy insurance and prove you have it didn't they?
The system is in place, you already participate in it.
Sorry, but that will take The Federal Government compelling The States to help with compliance of a Federal issue. Most States do not have emissions compliance enforcement.
Though some States' DMV offices (Kalifornia) may review cars' VINs for recalls and require documentation that they've been done, most (basically all) States do not. There is no mechanism in place. There just isn't. And, there won't be.
Annual license plate renewals are all about collecting revenue for The States. In my State, you renew tags at "The Revenue Office". My State does not have annual safety inspections or emissions testing. All they want you to do is show proof of insurance and pay your money.
Getting all The States to participate in EPA/DOT recall compliance is pure fantasy. Well, except maybe for Kalifornia.
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The States already help with compliance issues for Federal mandates. Maybe you live in the 51st State but every other state already participates in compliance enforcement.
If what you said is true, then we should all be able to visit your state and buy those nifty non-compliant vehicles and have at it. Getting them in isn't that big of a problem, you go to Canada, buynone and drive it across the border. When you try to register it, then it becomes a problem.
Sure, some States have fewer regulations than others but to say that there is no system in place to insure compliance or that a state wouldn't fall into place on the compliance of EPA mandates just isn't reality.
There is a question if the EPA would do it but if they decided to do so, yeah, your State would fall in line too. You drive on some roads funded by at least in part by the Federal government. Should they decide to mandate you get your diesel VW fixed they could compel you, through your own States DMV to get it done and there wouldn't be anything you could do about it.
Your state already collects federal taxes for fuel sales and you pay them. If they decided to do this, it would be far easier to get it done.
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Sorry, but that will take The Federal Government compelling The States to help with compliance of a Federal issue. Most States do not have emissions compliance enforcement.
Though some States' DMV offices (Kalifornia) may review cars' VINs for recalls and require documentation that they've been done, most (basically all) States do not. There is no mechanism in place. There just isn't. And, there won't be.
Annual license plate renewals are all about collecting revenue for The States. In my State, you renew tags at "The Revenue Office". My State does not have annual safety inspections or emissions testing. All they want you to do is show proof of insurance and pay your money.
Getting all The States to participate in EPA/DOT recall compliance is pure fantasy. Well, except maybe for Kalifornia.
This is true in Virginia too. Nobody is ever going to check to see if you had a "recall" done, safety or otherwise. Your "safety inspection" sticker is just headlights and tires, and they're thinking about doing away with that. I know that they're enforced pretty laxly.
I can own any kind of car with any kind of "recalls" against it and no one is going to say anything. The States are not going to take up the clubs for the Feds and do their bidding.
So someone driving a VW who doesn't hyperventilate over the "news" is never even going to know anything happened, or care ....
Lannis
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The States already help with compliance issues for Federal mandates. Maybe you live in the 51st State but every other state already participates in compliance enforcement.
If what you said is true, then we should all be able to visit your state and buy those nifty non-compliant vehicles and have at it. Getting them in isn't that big of a problem, you go to Canada, buynone and drive it across the border. When you try to register it, then it becomes a problem.
Sure, some States have fewer regulations than others but to say that there is no system in place to insure compliance or that a state wouldn't fall into place on the compliance of EPA mandates just isn't reality.
There is a question if the EPA would do it but if they decided to do so, yeah, your State would fall in line too. You drive on some roads funded by at least in part by the Federal government. Should they decide to mandate you get your diesel VW fixed they could compel you, through your own States DMV to get it done and there wouldn't be anything you could do about it.
Your state already collects federal taxes for fuel sales and you pay them. If they decided to do this, it would be far easier to get it done.
The DOT/EPA controls what the OEMs can sell to consumers.
The States are not required to make sure that consumers keep their cars compliant with any of the DOT/EPA mandates.
There are a few States, Counties, and Cities around The Country which do have their own compliance laws and annual inspections, which align with DOT/EPA, but that is mainly to deal with local air quality issues.
By and large, there is no State enforcement of DOT/EPA regulations of autos/motos that are in the hands of consumers.
After purchase, I could remove all emissions and safety equipment from my new car and would never be called out on it, because the car will never be inspected.
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Bollocking Bollocks!! Just orderd a 190bhp Skoda Superb and it had better have 190bhp when it arrives.
The company I work for have 40ish Skoda Octavias and they return 50-60pg(uk) depending on where in the country the rep works, this is confirmed by fuel receipts and trackers.
Perhaps governments have asked engineers for too much.
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Given that we have inspection stickers which are tied to emissions testing, I have to believe that if the "defeat software" is still in play and a car is never taken to disable the defeat mechanism, then it should pass emissions every year UNLESS somehow VW is connected to the Texas statewide testing software and it requires proof at the time one takes it to an inspection station to show the car was fixed at the dealer.
I'm kind of hoping for a buyback in a way...even though the Passat is a decent car for commuting.
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...someone driving a VW who doesn't hyperventilate over the "news" is never even going to know anything happened, or care ....
Yep. This is only an issue important to politicos, gear heads, and gear headed politicos.
The average consumer will just keep driving their car and never think a thing about it.
I love the fact that VW found a way to stick it to the man with technology mandated by the man. Too bad they were a little too greedy, and the disparity between testing and real world was so large, or they'd have probably never been caught!
Conspiracy Theory: All OEMs are "able to" do this with modern technology, which makes me think VW cannot be the only one. Just the only one which has been caught! I'd love it if some of the biggies (Honda/Toyota/Ford/GM) were investigated and proved to have also done this same scheme.
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Given that we have inspection stickers which are tied to emissions testing, I have to believe that if the "defeat software" is still in play and a car is never taken to disable the defeat mechanism, then it should pass emissions every year UNLESS somehow VW is connected to the Texas statewide testing software and it requires proof at the time one takes it to an inspection station to show the car was fixed at the dealer.
I'm kind of hoping for a buyback in a way...even though the Passat is a decent car for commuting.
Some hot-rodding hacker is sure to figure out the "defeat software" parameters, and have it available to re-install, after you've been forced by the man to have your car's recall performed at the dealer !!!
LOL!
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Jesus...if all the car manufacturers are doing this, and the EPA levies fines on all of them, the budget deficit will be a thing of the past! :)
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Yep, if I had the TDI VW, I would be smiling. No reflash needed, already got the best ECU map available. Recall, no thanks.
One small problem - in states that have smog tests where the OBDII is connected, it's no work at all to put a 'fail' against that version of the software. That wouldn't even be unreasonable for the government to do, since that version of the software is admittedly fraudulent and was purposefully designed to NOT meet the standard it was claimed to. "Do not pass go, do not collect $200, go see your dealer and come back with your ECU updated before your next license renewal."
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Bollocking Bollocks!! Just orderd a 190bhp Skoda Superb and it had better have 190bhp when it arrives.
Given the comments by governments in Germany, France and elsewhere in the EU, I bet it won't. And the delivery is likely to be delayed.
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Conspiracy Theory: All OEMs are "able to" do this with modern technology, which makes me think VW cannot be the only one. Just the only one which has been caught! I'd love it if some of the biggies (Honda/Toyota/Ford/GM) were investigated and proved to have also done this same scheme.
Quite possible, though they may have had a different risk vs reward calculation. VW had staked its claim to the 'clean diesel that still performs' mantle while its competitors struggled with getting performance AND low emissions, and now we know why - VW was also struggling but chose a different path. The fact that those competitors were down on performance is a good inferential evidence that they were coming a lot closer to the emissions targets.
Several people, including those in the EU governments, are already calling for an across the board evaluation - and just like computer malware, once you know what the software looks like that does this little trick, it's a lot easier to find whether it exists anywhere else.
I rather suspect that automakers are now going to have to submit their vehicle control system software for code review - what with this purposeful evasion of compliance, the FCA wireless-hackable Jeeps, and computer controlled emergency stop systems.
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Yep. This is only an issue important to politicos, gear heads, and gear headed politicos.
The average consumer will just keep driving their car and never think a thing about it.
I love the fact that VW found a way to stick it to the man with technology mandated by the man. Too bad they were a little too greedy, and the disparity between testing and real world was so large, or they'd have probably never been caught!
Conspiracy Theory: All OEMs are "able to" do this with modern technology, which makes me think VW cannot be the only one. Just the only one which has been caught! I'd love it if some of the biggies (Honda/Toyota/Ford/GM) were investigated and proved to have also done this same scheme.
VW didn't stick it to the man, they stuck it to everyone who bought one of the affected cars. They got people to pay for their arrogance and greed.
Now watch as the man sticks it to VW. In the end , no one ever sticks it to the man.
The enemy of your enemy is not your friend, they are just a different enemy.
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Quite possible, though they may have had a different risk vs reward calculation. VW had staked its claim to the 'clean diesel that still performs' mantle while its competitors struggled with getting performance AND low emissions, and now we know why - VW was also struggling but chose a different path. The fact that those competitors were down on performance is a good inferential evidence that they were coming a lot closer to the emissions targets.
Several people, including those in the EU governments, are already calling for an across the board evaluation - and just like computer malware, once you know what the software looks like that does this little trick, it's a lot easier to find whether it exists anywhere else.
I rather suspect that automakers are now going to have to submit their vehicle control system software for code review - what with this purposeful evasion of compliance, the FCA wireless-hackable Jeeps, and computer controlled emergency stop systems.
I was thinking beyond diesels. Because of the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) ratings that US automakers have to maintain for cars sold in the USA, there is plenty of motivation to have the tech geeks set something like this up. Even a few mpg over the entire fleet can make a difference for the big OEMs.
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I agree, don't rush to the dealer. There are 500,000 VW vehicles over 6 years affected. The EPA lists 14,000,000 light car and truck recalls for emissions for 2009-2011. That's quite a backlog. I live two hours plus from the nearest dealership. They don't send the police to your house to drag your car in for these kind of things.
-AJ
Most of the vehicles affected are late-model cars under warranty. Being VWs, they're likely going to be heading to the dealership for warranty repairs at some point. They'll reflash the car with the recall fix when it's in for service. You can't opt out of recalls when they have the car in their possession. I own one of the affected vehicles and I'm not at all happy about this whole thing. Best case scenario for me is VW offers up some sort of compensation to current owners to either trade their car on a new model or keep it and receive some sort of credit or payment.
I could care less about the emissions. I'm more concerned about the hit I'll take on resale value and/or a possible fix that reduces the already lackluster performance of the car.
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VW didn't stick it to the man, they stuck it to everyone who bought one of the affected cars. They got people to pay for their arrogance and greed.
Now watch as the man sticks it to VW. In the end , no one ever sticks it to the man.
The enemy of your enemy is not your friend, they are just a different enemy.
Let's see, VW stuck it to everyone who bought a TDI by giving them better than advertised fuel economy.
Yeah, what a pisser. I'm sure they're all upset that now their cars might actually be reduced to getting the sticker MPGs.
LOL!
The Jetta Sportwagon TDI is rated at "Up to 30 city, 42 highway", but are renowned for returning better numbers. The Sportwagen TDI that I drove a few years ago was returning 38 in town during the time I drove it.
Honestly, how upset could I be if the company was required to set the car to return rated economy, rather than exceed it, as most of the cars are reported to do ???
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I own one of the affected vehicles and I'm not at all happy about this whole thing. Best case scenario for me is VW offers up some sort of compensation to current owners to either trade their car on a new model or keep it and receive some sort of credit or payment.
What car do you own? What is your observed fuel economy? What was it rated on the window sticker?
If you are seeing better numbers than stated on the window sticker, and the warranty recall simply brings you down to sticker fuel economy, why will you be not at all happy ??
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What car do you own? What is your observed fuel economy? What was it rated on the window sticker?
If you are seeing better numbers than stated on the window sticker, and the warranty recall simply brings you down to sticker fuel economy, why will you be not at all happy ??
The real problem is that the fuel economy numbers came from the testing that was shown as compromised - and there's no guarantee that even those lower numbers will be met or even approached by VWs once they have a legal and compliant set of software installed. If they do, your point holds, though there is still the promised performance that will definitely (and admittedly, by VW) compromised - and that performance is certainly a factor in the choice of many consumers to go with VW diesels rather than gas or a competitors' product.
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VW didn't stick it to the man, they stuck it to everyone who bought one of the affected cars.
The Feds gave $51 million dollars in tax subsidies for these supposedly clean cars, so they actually stuck it to all of us.
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What car do you own? What is your observed fuel economy? What was it rated on the window sticker?
If you are seeing better numbers than stated on the window sticker, and the warranty recall simply brings you down to sticker fuel economy, why will you be not at all happy ??
My fuel economy is great, actually. Sticker has it at 42 highway and I think you could actually get that if you drove the speed limit. I don't, however.
I have a thing for data and track fuel mileage obsessively. I have averaged 33 mpg in mixed driving over the past 12 months. I always reset the onboard computer and compare it against the actual calculations then make a note in the app I use. The car's calculation is always higher than actual, usually around 10%. I thought perhaps the car was calculating Imperial gallons, but I tested with l/100 KM and got the same results. I suspect they've padded the calculations to make owners feel better about their purchase. Seems VW engineers aren't averse to using a little creative coding.
My highest tank ever was a trip this summer when the car returned 36.4mpg in mostly freeway driving, so 80-ish mph. The onboard computer had it at 38.1 for the same trip. No complaints about the mileage- it's great.
Oh- I have an Audi A3.
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The real problem is that the fuel economy numbers came from the testing that was shown as compromised - and there's no guarantee that even those lower numbers will be met or even approached by VWs once they have a legal and compliant set of software installed. If they do, your point holds, though there is still the promised performance that will definitely (and admittedly, by VW) compromised - and that performance is certainly a factor in the choice of many consumers to go with VW diesels rather than gas or a competitors' product.
I'm looking at it from a different direction. It's my understanding the testing in question is for emissions. And that the cars are emitting more particulates and Oxides of Nitrous in the real world, than they are emitting in testing.
So, your car that's beating the window sticker fuel economy is doing that by putting more nasties out the tailpipe than is allowed.
My understanding is that, in static testing, the engine is "turned down" to produce less emissions (and less power) to meet the claimed fuel economy ratings on the sticker.
But as we all know, this onion is still being peeled.
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Yep, if I had the TDI VW, I would be smiling. No reflash needed, already got the best ECU map available. Recall, no thanks.
See reply #140.
Only in Kalifornia.
There is no system in place to enforce something like your grand scheme, in most of The Country.
YET. Kalifornia was the only state with emissions testing, until others started doing it too.
As Kalifornia goes, so goes the other states as well.... eventually.
Sorry, but that will take The Federal Government compelling The States to help with compliance of a Federal issue. Most States do not have emissions compliance enforcement.
Though some States' DMV offices (Kalifornia) may review cars' VINs for recalls and require documentation that they've been done, most (basically all) States do not. There is no mechanism in place. There just isn't. And, there won't be.
Annual license plate renewals are all about collecting revenue for The States. In my State, you renew tags at "The Revenue Office". My State does not have annual safety inspections or emissions testing. All they want you to do is show proof of insurance and pay your money.
Getting all The States to participate in EPA/DOT recall compliance is pure fantasy. Well, except maybe for Kalifornia.
The federal gov't could mandate it by withholding highway funds from any state that doesn't comply. That is what brought us the national 55 MPH speed limit for all those years.
Given that we have inspection stickers which are tied to emissions testing, I have to believe that if the "defeat software" is still in play and a car is never taken to disable the defeat mechanism, then it should pass emissions every year UNLESS somehow VW is connected to the Texas statewide testing software and it requires proof at the time one takes it to an inspection station to show the car was fixed at the dealer.
I'm kind of hoping for a buyback in a way...even though the Passat is a decent car for commuting.
The "defeat software" can determine that the car is under test, whether by the EPA, or your state inspection. This most likely is done with the ABS sensors. If the front wheels are spinning, but, not the rests, then the car must be on a dyno -- operate in "test mode.".
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Given the comments by governments in Germany, France and elsewhere in the EU, I bet it won't. And the delivery is likely to be delayed.
Just checked and Skoda only used this engine in older models just hope VW don't restrict Skodas supply of new engines
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Kalifornia was the only state with emissions testing, until others started doing it too.
As Kalifornia goes, so goes the other states as well.... eventually.
Not in our lifetimes... And not all States. How many States in flyover country mirror Kalifornia's CARB in any way?
The federal gov't could mandate it by withholding highway funds from any state that doesn't comply. That is what brought us the national 55 MPH speed limit for all those years.
"could" being the key word. When is the last time the Federal Government used this tactic for compliance? They did it for 55mph. They did it for 16 years old licensing. They did it for 21 year old drinking.
In the current climate of The District, I really don't think withholding highway funds for compliance with warranty recall reporting is a reality.
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Not in our lifetimes... And not all States. How many States in flyover country mirror Kalifornia's CARB in any way?
Flyover - not many, not yet.
But looks like at last count it was 13 states that had adopted CA emissions standards for automobiles.
https://www.edf.org/news/13-states-adopting-california-clean-car-standards-would-reap-significant-economic-and-environme
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The reality is that the emission s regulations are required to be complied with by our laws. We all pay for the enforcement of those laws and VW is not a USA company. In order to get more revenue from American consumers they mist likely engaged in fraud. There were no accidental efforts involved.
I don't know about anyone else but I think I'm paying too many taxes already. Yet here comes VW cheating and disregarding the regulations and laws of my country and laughing all the way to the bank. It doesn't matter if I agree with the emissions regulations or not, they exist and what a relatively few people do if they mess with their ecu maps or exhausts has no comparison to a concerted effort by a company to violate the regulations on a massive scale with the intent to just make more money because then we're all paying for it, not just the people who bought the cars.
This has the potential to get certain groups really active and those regulations and emissions testing you think won't come to your state might be wishful thinking. You might like being able to load an new map in your MG but what could easily happen is that future ECUs won't allow access except through dealer only equipment and software coupled to another technology that won't allow a map other than none certified to be used. It wouldn't be that hard to do and then the costs to get around it would be prohibitive.
I remember not all that long ago, people saying bikes would never have catalytic converters. Maybe and then only in California they said.
Go look at your new MG and what do you see? Notice the garbage can sized exhausts on many new bikes? How is that factory map working out for you?
All that started from some place. What VW did is that some place.
There is no doubt that this will cause new regulations and a greater effort to prevent user access to the ecu in the future. That isn't a "could" it will happen, not in 20 years, within a few.
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Bikes of course have had mapping designed to evade the spirit of regulations for years.
Look at a Dyno graph and see the dip at 2500rpm which reduces the noise at the specific point measurements are made. ok if you ride at this engine speed all the time if not it's a fiddle.
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Its only a few billion for the fine ....
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/wallstats_trillion_zpspl9homwy.jpg)
I thought it would be a lot of money, silly me.
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...what could easily happen is that future ECUs won't allow access except through dealer only equipment and software coupled to another technology that won't allow a map other than none certified to be used. It wouldn't be that hard to do and then the costs to get around it would be prohibitive.
There is no doubt that this will cause new regulations and a greater effort to prevent user access to the ecu in the future. That isn't a "could" it will happen, not in 20 years, within a few.
I'd like to know how you draw the line from an OEM programming its own software to fool EPA emissions testing, to the governments having the OEMs make it harder for INDIVIDUAL CONSUMERS to access the ECU ?
The problem, in THIS INSTANCE, is Volkswagen programming its own ECUs to fool testing equipment. It has nothing to do with the aftermarket, or the consumer.
Basically, what it means is that the governments will have to change the way they test emissions, probably going dynamic, to help avoid this type of issue.
No matter the system, or the rules, there will always be workarounds, especially in today's high-tech world.
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Bikes of course have had mapping designed to evade the spirit of regulations for years.
Look at a Dyno graph and see the dip at 2500rpm which reduces the noise at the specific point measurements are made. ok if you ride at this engine speed all the time if not it's a fiddle.
That doesn't evade anything, it will run like that all the time and not only during some test. Evasion is circumventing the regulation, not meeting it.
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Penderic :thumb:
The KTM 990 was the last ECU that aftermarket tuning software would work on. The new 1190 and 1290 as far as I know have not been cracked, maybe rexxer, but I think that is piggy back, map stays in tact.
Think the new V7II has not been cracked, and the California 1400??
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That doesn't evade anything, it will run like that all the time and not only during some test. Evasion is circumventing the regulation, not meeting it.
The VW TDIs meet the EPA regulations... In static testing... As required by law...
:wink:
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The VW TDIs meet the EPA regulations... In static testing... As required by law...
:wink:
Wouldn't it be funny of VW's lawyers can beat this thing in court because the EPA didn't say you couldn't use two modes of programming?
I'm not saying it would be possible or right, but, remember, we have a "legal system", not a "justice system."
I'd be happy if, somehow, existing cars got "grandfathered", and could keep their existing programming.
Of course, this won't happen. We'll just have to sit back and see how this plays out.
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I bet the Big Three and The Big Japanese companies are lobbying hard right now to wrap up things tightly and quickly. Because if VW can sneak past the EPA with an ECU, so can everyone else. And no one else wants extra scrutiny. This could fade faster than you think.
-AJ
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The VW TDIs meet the EPA regulations... In static testing... As required by law...
:wink:
Nope, law says a defeat device can't used and they used one. If that weren't true this would never have seen the light of day.
VW already admitted to wrong doing, not even a question. Question now is how much liability and how much it will cost and who pays.
No question what was done, just who did it and who knew about it.
So, who will opt out of the class actions and forgo any compensation since they really like their VW?
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That doesn't evade anything, it will run like that all the time and not only during some test. Evasion is circumventing the regulation, not meeting it.
might meet the letter of the law just not the spirit.
Similary if the letter of the car laws say it is going to be tested with a set method to acheive set results........VW have complied.
My wife had an old Peugeot Diesel that had to pass an emission test once a year, beforehand I filled it with premium added injector cleaner and octane stuff then gave it a bit of a decoke flat out on the motorway.
It scraped through, one year on the second attempt the rest of the year it smoked like a Steam Train.
I really can't see much difference between me and VW.
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I'd like to know how you draw the line from an OEM programming its own software to fool EPA emissions testing, to the governments having the OEMs make it harder for INDIVIDUAL CONSUMERS to access the ECU ?
I thought the OEM's were already lobbying congress for a version of this. I.e. you own the car and not the software.
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The VW TDIs meet the EPA regulations... In static testing... As required by law...
:wink:
I think the difference might be in the regulations.
Cars may only be tested in DYNAMIC (DYNO isn't static) conditions on a dyno but I believe the regulations deal with more than just those conditions.
As I understand bike regulations they specifically are for only a certain operating condition. I.e. emissions aren't regulated across the operating range as I believe they are on cars.
But even if not, I don't think the regulation on cars says that they must only "pass the test" but that they must only put out certain levels of emissions at certain speeds. If the car puts out more at those speeds at times than during the test they may pass the test but fail the emissions standard anyway.
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I thought the OEM's were already lobbying congress for a version of this. I.e. you own the car and not the software.
With Inbuilt Sat Nav this is already their view
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So if the testing is done on a dyno how do they calculate emissions at speed how do they allow for aerodynamics, just calculate it?
What about front/rear wheel alignment, mechanical losses from the undriven wheels hubs etc.
Oh and who is going to sue for loss, VW owners who have faster more economical cars?
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So if the testing is done on a dyno how do they calculate emissions at speed how do they allow for aerodynamics, just calculate it?
What about front/rear wheel alignment, mechanical losses from the undriven wheels hubs etc.
Oh and who is going to sue for loss, VW owners who have faster more economical cars?
Testing is NORMALLY done on a dyno but one news story showed a portable rig so it can be done underway.
As for suing what are you asking?
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might meet the letter of the law just not the spirit.
Similary if the letter of the car laws say it is going to be tested with a set method to acheive set results........VW have complied.
My wife had an old Peugeot Diesel that had to pass an emission test once a year, beforehand I filled it with premium added injector cleaner and octane stuff then gave it a bit of a decoke flat out on the motorway.
It scraped through, one year on the second attempt the rest of the year it smoked like a Steam Train.
I really can't see much difference between me and VW.
The obvious difference is that VW did it in order to sell cars that otherwise could not be sold and accepted tax credits and other financial incentives claiming that its cars met the requirements to qualify for them. They also claimed performance for certain cars that might not otherwise be provided were it not for the defeat device.
The company that makes a car or motorcycle that has a flat spot in the rpm range that meets the emissions standards doesn't only do that when it is being tested. That isn't what VW did, they created software that detected the testing and for the duration of the test reduced engine performance so it could pass the tests and after the test was completed, the software increased engine performance even though in that state it would no pass the test.
If you as an individual cheat to pass an emissions test so you can sell a car that would otherwise be illegal to sell, then yeah, not much difference. If that is what you did, depending on the laws in that state, that could make you a criminal. Not seeing your point though.
Put it this way, if you changed the Y pipe on a Moto Guzzi that eliminated the catalytic converter or other emissions equipment and then sold the bike claiming it had better performance than another MG of the same model but didn't disclose what you did, the new owner could make a few phone calls and you'd be running to hire a defense attorney and figuring out how to negotiate reduced penalties.
Selling any motor vehicle with altered emissions equipment is risky considering you don't know who they really are and liable for violating some serious federal laws. Lots of people do it and nothing happens. That wouldn't matter if you were the one to get caught.
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Nope, law says a defeat device can't used and they used one. If that weren't true this would never have seen the light of day.
VW already admitted to wrong doing, not even a question. Question now is how much liability and how much it will cost and who pays.
No question what was done, just who did it and who knew about it.
So, who will opt out of the class actions and forgo any compensation since they really like their VW?
BTW- it's been done before with semi tractor manufacturers. VW wasn't the first to cheat with a diesel.
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If I had a VW Diesel, I would not take it in for a fix. Running just fine, thanks...
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I believe that it is important to keep this in perspective. This isn't a case of a manufacturer ignoring a known engineering defect and causing multiple deaths and injuries. What we have here is merely some very clever, but devious code. Nobody died. Nobody injured. It's strictly about the $$$ generated in sales and profits based upon deliberate consumer (and regulatory) deception.
Nobody's VW TDI is accelerating out of control to over 100 mph. Nobody's TDI is getting rammed from behind because of a known defective ignition switch. Not one TDI is spontaniously combusting after a relatively minor accident.
This is simply about the Benjamins, nothing more, nothing less.
Piech wanted control anyway; now he has it.
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What I have been hearing is the emissions exceeded the standard by around 35 times. I would call that drastic. (Note that is the standard, not against how the car performs in testing which may be below the standard.) I'm also assuming the "standard" is what vehicle manufacturers are expected to meet.
John Henry
News tonight said it was 40% over the standard. That is not such a big deal as 35 times would be.
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I believe that it is important to keep this in perspective. This isn't a case of a manufacturer ignoring a known engineering defect and causing multiple deaths and injuries. What we have here is merely some very clever, but devious code. Nobody died. Nobody injured. It's strictly about the $$$ generated in sales and profits based upon deliberate consumer (and regulatory) deception.
Nobody's VW TDI is accelerating out of control to over 100 mph. Nobody's TDI is getting rammed from behind because of a known defective ignition switch. Not one TDI is spontaniously combusting after a relatively minor accident.
This is simply about the Benjamins, nothing more, nothing less.
Piech wanted control anyway; now he has it.
Air polution kills people... just saying
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Not one TDI is spontaniously combusting after a relatively minor accident.
Can diesel spontaneously combust? :)
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Can diesel spontaneously combust? :)
No, and neither can gasoline for that matter. Vapor has to have an ignition source that is above the vapor ignition temperature ...
Lannis
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And here I was considering buying a new VW TDI. Now I can't.
This reminds me a bit of an old Jaguar XJ12L I had many years ago. Twelve cylinders, four carburetors, and 7.8 miles per gallon. It simply would not pass DEQ's emissions test. My mechanic had to take it through for me, with his tools at the ready. He would fiddle with it out on the street, then drive it through the emissions test, and then fiddle with it again on the street before returning it to me. He said it could barely get over the speed bump in the DEQ driveway...
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IMO if other companies aren't doing something similar I'd be astonished.
However, the "clever" ones will
a) have buried the defeat software so deep in the software nobody can find it
b) next time they plug your car into the diagnostics the dodgy software will "mysteriously" disappear
As an aside. IIRC back in the 80s some cars had a connection from the inlet manifold direct to the exhaust via a valve that opened at idle (test revs) with the sole aim of adding additional air to the exhaust thus diluting the % if pollutants coming from the tail pipe.
Did I dream that??
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No, and neither can gasoline for that matter. Vapor has to have an ignition source that is above the vapor ignition temperature ...
Lannis
Hmmm, I wonder why he had a smily face after his question :rolleyes:
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As an aside. IIRC back in the 80s some cars had a connection from the inlet manifold direct to the exhaust via a valve that opened at idle (test revs) with the sole aim of adding additional air to the exhaust thus diluting the % if pollutants coming from the tail pipe.
Modern diesels have EGR valves that pass air from the inlet side of the turbo to the Exhaust to helb burn NOxs .
We had 20 of them fail on our first batch of Vauxhall Insignias (Buick Reagals) stranding the driver with no coolant.
GM reckoned this was easier than a recall..........for them
I think there might be a European American disconnect here.
US posters have complained about the lack of performance in Diesels but my present car has 157bhp 0-60mph is 8.9s and the top speed is 137mph, my new one is 190bhp, 7.8s, 146mph.
Complaining about VW having once fitted some inventive software on an old engine seems a bit rich from the land of the F150 truck :grin:
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Air polution kills people... just saying
If I had a VW Diesel, I would not take it in for a fix. Running just fine, thanks...
With respect to all who care for our planet, I have a Golf GTD 2ltr Turbo diesel,( Wifes ) with paddle shifters on the steering wheel. This thing won't out race a true sports car, but like a Guzzi, the torque delivered is just addictive and especially fun in a mountain range. While they still make Diesel fuel, I feel I have a duty to Burn some of it :grin:
Oh Fuel economy ..... on a trip , 4.5 litres / 100 Km 52mpg (usg)
No problems with VW here :whip2:
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Modern diesels have EGR valves that pass air from the inlet side of the turbo to the Exhaust to helb burn NOxs .
FALSE!
The EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) valve puts exhaust INTO the intake side to reduce the ratio of oxygen coming into the engine, which reduces combustion temperatures. The reduced combustion temperatures result in lower production of NOx.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation)
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The TDI forum I used to belong to figures no big deal, no one wants to dump their cars, no one wants to shoot VW. Very happy campers.
But one fellow who happens to be selling his Sportwagen put in an ad, and got some super lowballers (who I think are planning on flipping these very nice cars) and a paper who wanted to know how outraged he was (not at all).
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The TDI forum I used to belong to figures no big deal, no one wants to dump their cars, no one wants to shoot VW. Very happy campers.
There are a few threads on the subject over on VWVortex. There is some outrage, some concern, apathy, and some "eff the EPA, I'll never comply with the recall."
Hopefully, not complying will be an option. I'll certainly drag my feet as long as I can, and at least see how others' cars' performance and fuel economy are affected before I agree to get it down on my own cars.
In the meantime, I can't do anything about it, so, I'm just going to concentrate on more important things like enjoying riding before winter hits. :bike-037:
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So the regulations required the nox to be at a super low rate to fight GLOBAL WARMING. To get the cars to this nox level would have required more expensive hardware or less power and fuel economy.
The EPA is fat and lazy (and stupid) to let this happen for so many years.
I am trying to figure out when these super low nox standards came into being.
Is this the same thing as regulating coal fired power plants out of existance.
I read a report that was a few years old that in Europe the real world test of (different brands) diesel cars had a much higher nox level that tested.
I drive a Diesel Mercedes and a gas VW
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Hmmm, I wonder why he had a smily face after his question :rolleyes:
Very astute Kenttkt! It was in fact a tongue in cheek question...late night humour!
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Very astute Kenttkt! It was in fact a tongue in cheek question...late night humour!
Don't forget Rule #1 -
If YOU'RE joking, then I'M joking.
If YOU'RE NOT joking, then neither am I.
That way you get to decide if it's "serious" or not .... :lipsrsealed:
Lannis
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So the regulations required the nox to be at a super low rate to fight GLOBAL WARMING. To get the cars to this nox level would have required more expensive hardware or less power and fuel economy.
The EPA is fat and lazy (and stupid) to let this happen for so many years.
I am trying to figure out when these super low nox standards came into being.
I would guess standards were made tighter for the 2007 model year, as no TDI's were imported in 2007 or 2008. In 2009 the TDI returned to the US market with a DPF (2006 and earlier did not have them). Ford Power Stroke diesels got the DPF for the 2008 model year with the 6.4L. So, at least particulate standards got stiffer around that time. I would guess NOx standards did as well.
Ultra low sulfur diesel fuel was also mandated in 2007.
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Yep. 2007.
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So the regulations required the nox to be at a super low rate to fight GLOBAL WARMING. To get the cars to this nox level would have required more expensive hardware or less power and fuel economy.
The EPA is fat and lazy (and stupid) to let this happen for so many years.
I am trying to figure out when these super low nox standards came into being.
Is this the same thing as regulating coal fired power plants out of existance.
I read a report that was a few years old that in Europe the real world test of (different brands) diesel cars had a much higher nox level that tested.
I drive a Diesel Mercedes and a gas VW
http://www3.epa.gov/cleandiesel/reg-prog.htm
Looks like new rules and standards were starting to phase in as early as 2006 on the fuel side of things. I thought I read 2007 or 2009 when the new automotive standards were phased in from the emissions levels standpoint.
I believe the EU is also pursuing similar tighter standards, including tighter regulations on NOx, but maybe not as tight as US currently.
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http://www3.epa.gov/cleandiesel/reg-prog.htm
Looks like new rules and standards were starting to phase in as early as 2006 on the fuel side of things. I thought I read 2007 or 2009 when the new automotive standards were phased in from the emissions levels standpoint.
I believe the EU is also pursuing similar tighter standards, including tighter regulations on NOx, but maybe not as tight as US currently.
Seems a bit odd (or maybe they just have better PR than we do) that the Europeans, the champions of Kyoto Protocols, who are getting rid of their nuclear plants, who are more sensitive than us dirty US cowboys about Global Climate Change .... should have looser requirements than the US on NOx emissions for cars?
They have so many neat little high-mileage diesels that I'd love to have, but they never seem to be able to meet US standards?
Just seems the opposite from what we "hear" .....
Lannis
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Seems a bit odd (or maybe they just have better PR than we do) that the Europeans, the champions of Kyoto Protocols, who are getting rid of their nuclear plants, who are more sensitive than us dirty US cowboys about Global Climate Change .... should have looser requirements than the US on NOx emissions for cars?
They have so many neat little high-mileage diesels that I'd love to have, but they never seem to be able to meet US standards?
Just seems the opposite from what we "hear" .....
Lannis
I THINK they are tightening them up. You gotta pour through the standards to try and compare apples-to-apples:
https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/
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I THINK they are tightening them up. You gotta pour through the standards to try and compare apples-to-apples:
https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/
Good info. The surprise, then, would be that the USA would ahead of them on emissions requirements .... that's not the rap we normally hear ....
Lannis
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Good info. The surprise, then, would be that the USA would ahead of them on emissions requirements .... that's not the rap we normally hear ....
Lannis
I don't know that we're "ahead of" Europe. USA just places different priorities on different pieces of the emissions pie.
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As an aside. IIRC back in the 80s some cars had a connection from the inlet manifold direct to the exhaust via a valve that opened at idle (test revs) with the sole aim of adding additional air to the exhaust thus diluting the % if pollutants coming from the tail pipe.
Did I dream that??
Back in the day......
There was an actual pump, to pump fresh air into the exhaust header, ahead of the catalytic converter. I believe that was needed to get some oxygen to the converters, to make the converters work well on a carburated engine with no O2 sensors. Now, with fuel injection, the computer can better control the amount of oxygen in the exhaust so the air pump is not used.
Most cars now have an EGR valve, which lets exhaust back into the intake, to dilute the intake. That lowers the combustion temperature, which reduces the level of some emissions.
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So the regulations required the nox to be at a super low rate to fight GLOBAL WARMING.
No, the NOx levels are being lowered to reduce ground level pollution, smog and the direct health issues with that.
http://www3.epa.gov/airquality/nitrogenoxides/health.html
CO2 is the main global warming gas.
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I wonder if the pressure to mess with the programming came from VW's marketing department. Engineering said that, yes, we can pass the tests without urea injection, but performance and mileage will suffer. Marketing demanded everything. Engineering came up with a software solution.
It's the owners that will really be hurt with accelerated depreciation. Once in a while, I've bought a car/toy knowing that I'd better like it as there just wasn't much of a market for it. The diesel owners didn't sign on for that.
On the dark side, a number of owners may dump their cars for any amount of money due to panic or embarrassment. Might be some choice opportunities for a bit....for something that can be solved with a software flash. One "expert" the other day said that many might not even notice the decreased performance with correct software. But lower mileage would affect the value equation.
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I'm sure it's a $$$ issue.
Installing DEF systems for the USA cars would've been more expensive than what the software "test mode" programming cost to develop and implement.
And maybe, they felt that buyers would resist cars with DEF.
Not that big a deal, really. Big diesels are running DEF in The USA, and DEF is available at many gas stations which sell diesel fuel.
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Don't forget Rule #1 -
If YOU'RE joking, then I'M joking. If YOU'RE NOT joking, then neither am I.
That way you get to decide if it's "serious" or not .... :lipsrsealed: Lannis
All good!!! No issues on my side...totally understood, and the response was appreciated!
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I'm sure it's a $$$ issue.
Installing DEF systems for the USA cars would've been more expensive than what the software "test mode" programming cost to develop and implement.
And maybe, they felt that buyers would resist cars with DEF.
Not that big a deal, really. Big diesels are running DEF in The USA, and DEF is available at many gas stations which sell diesel fuel.
In retrospect I had noticed with the roll out of the VW diesels that their system lacked the DEF.
Frankly, that was enough to INTEREST me where it was the straw the broke the camel's back for most other manufacturers and I wasn't really looking to deal with that.
It wouldn't surprise me AT ALL if it was a part of their success in the segment.
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And maybe, they felt that buyers would resist cars with DEF.
When I bought mine, I did see the lack of a DEF system as an advantage, in that it was one less system to worry about having problems with down the road.
Although, now, I'd prefer VW to add DEF to my car than to just retune the software resulting in much lower MPG.
As I stated before, I'll just have to wait and see. It wouldn't be the first time that an investment decision didn't pay off.
In 2011, we installed 9KW of solar panels on our house when the ROI was about 8 years. Then, the SREC market tanked, and now our payback is more like 24 years :sad:
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In retrospect I had noticed with the roll out of the VW diesels that their system lacked the DEF.
Frankly, that was enough to INTEREST me where it was the straw the broke the camel's back for most other manufacturers and I wasn't really looking to deal with that.
It wouldn't surprise me AT ALL if it was a part of their success in the segment.
Absolutely! Look at the other diesel passenger vehicle options in the US. Mercedes and BMW. Both are in much higher profit margin segments. An additional $1,000-$1,500 in cost to the diesel option dissuade the buyer of a vehicle with a base price in the high teens to low twenties than the buyer of a $40K + car.
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I wouldn't be surprised if the owners of these cars will face a mandatory recall. Probably will need to have proof of EPA certification at time of tag renewal or sale.
A "scarlet letter" sticker attached to the engine and title.
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Absolutely! Look at the other diesel passenger vehicle options in the US. Mercedes and BMW. Both are in much higher profit margin segments. An additional $1,000-$1,500 in cost to the diesel option dissuade the buyer of a vehicle with a base price in the high teens to low twenties than the buyer of a $40K + car.
Dodge Ram's and Jeep Grand Cherokees have diesel options that can cost up to $5k with the required additional "packages".
And that's on something that was probably already north of $40k on the trim level before you started.
We thought about a diesel GC (it wasn't out yet, but knew it was coming). But the ROI wasn't there in the mpg, not to mention the DEF hassle and other differences in operation.
The only way it would have made sense was if we were towing heavy loads often.
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As a grad student, I owned a '78 diesel Rabbit. About the last year they came from Germany. Well built. Blistering 48hp. Slowed down going up steep hills, just like the old VW bugs I used to own. But at a time when pollution controls often made cars decelerate when you first pushed on the go-pedal--it was an honest little car. I enjoyed it for what it was.
I have been surprised at how much performance they had gotten out of the new diesels without urea injection and still kept the EPA happy.
Hm.
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I wouldn't be surprised if the owners of these cars will face a mandatory recall. Probably will need to have proof of EPA certification at time of tag renewal or sale.
A "scarlet letter" sticker attached to the engine and title.
I really don't think proof of recall and EPA certification will happen outside Kalifornia...
Most of the cars will be updated voluntarily, or inadvertently, when the owners take them in for service.
It will take a couple years to get them all, but that's what will happen.
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Interesting:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11881954/Volkswagen-emissions-scandal-Which-other-cars-fail-to-meet-pollution-safety-limits.html
Some talk of EU NOx standards and this:
Diesel vehicles are a significant presence on Europe's roads - with Europe accounting for three quarters of 2014's diesel car sales.
They emit more toxic particles than their petrol counterparts, leading to concern over their threat to human and environmental health.
Air pollution is estimated to cause 30,000 deaths each year in Britain. A toxic gas called nitrous oxide is partly to blame, which causes smog, respiratory illness and heart and lung disease.
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I wouldn't be surprised if the owners of these cars will face a mandatory recall. Probably will need to have proof of EPA certification at time of tag renewal or sale.
A "scarlet letter" sticker attached to the engine and title.
They've never done it for past safety recalls, they aren't going to start now. It's only 500,000 cars!!! Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda have had recalls in the TENS of MILLIONS!!!
-AJ
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Dodge Ram's and Jeep Grand Cherokees have diesel options that can cost up to $5k with the required additional "packages".
And that's on something that was probably already north of $40k on the trim level before you started.
We thought about a diesel GC (it wasn't out yet, but knew it was coming). But the ROI wasn't there in the mpg, not to mention the DEF hassle and other differences in operation.
The only way it would have made sense was if we were towing heavy loads often.
We chose our TDI's over Hybrids that had higher EPA MPG ratings, but, with similar real world MPG numbers from actual drivers. The Hybrids had to practically be hypermiled to return the EPA numbers where, the TDI's could be driven at 75 MPH on the highway and still get EPA highway MPG, and be driven what I consider normally and exceed city EPA MPG. Similar real world experiences influenced my buying decision, as I'm sure it did many others.
If the TDI got the usual 10-15% lower than EPA MPG in real world driving as many hybrids and turbo gas-powered cars, it wouldn't have been worth it to me. Fast forward to today, the premium price for diesel fuel over regular unleaded gas seems to be higher than it was a few years ago when we bought our TDI's as well.
The lack of the urea system was also a factor in our purchase decision.
Knowing what I know now, if I was buying today, it would be unlikely to be a TDI.
Knowing what I know about VW letting this scam even happen, it would be unlikely to be a VW.
I still like our cars and we will keep them, esp. if we can keep the EPA recall off of them. Resale value WILL suffer. So, if we can keep the recall out of them, we might as well benefit from the operating cost savings that we paid for.
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Looks like Herr Winterkorn will be receiving something in the neighborhood of 60 million Euros for his severance package.
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Looks like Herr Winterkorn will be receiving something in the neighborhood of 60 million Euros for his severance package.
Always amazing how CEO's can get these wonderful severance packages in light of a major blunder. Market value shaved off about $30Billion so far from VW shareholders (including Lower Saxony and the country of Qatar), but he'll still get $60M Euros...a real headscratcher.
The interesting politics of Porsche trying to take over VW and then having VW reverse course and dominate Porsche, will now be in for a role reversal here shortly. By the way, isn't this the same engine in the Passat TDI as they employ in the Cayenne Diesel? (Dusty...you see I'm trying to expand the discussion from a VW Centric one to include Porsche now! :) )
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/24/us-usa-volkswagen-letters-exclusive-idUSKCN0RO0BD20150924 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/24/us-usa-volkswagen-letters-exclusive-idUSKCN0RO0BD20150924)
The plot thickens. So how many people are hand wringing but already had their ECUs reflashed at the dealership?
-AJ
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@PJPR01 -- that crossed my mind, too. The mouse that roared get the last laugh. And just in time for more celebration at Rennsport Reunion. :cool: :boozing:
cr
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http://www.laweekly.com/news/officials-knew-about-vw-pollution-in-early-2014-6079909 (http://www.laweekly.com/news/officials-knew-about-vw-pollution-in-early-2014-6079909)
I bet VW lawyers will be all over this 18 month gap before the government reacted. Must not have been that big of a deal???
-AJ
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They've never done it for past safety recalls, they aren't going to start now. It's only 500,000 cars!!! Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda have had recalls in the TENS of MILLIONS!!!
-AJ
This ISN'T a Safety Recall.
A safety recall only effects the occupants of the vehicle so it behooves THEM to get it done.
In theory this would effect EVERYONE ELSE on the planet (not just the occupants of the vehicle).
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http://www.laweekly.com/news/officials-knew-about-vw-pollution-in-early-2014-6079909 (http://www.laweekly.com/news/officials-knew-about-vw-pollution-in-early-2014-6079909)
I bet VW lawyers will be all over this 18 month gap before the government reacted. Must not have been that big of a deal???
-AJ
Yeah, it was in orginal story that the EPA and CARB were dealing with VW for the last 18 months over this. VW was pretty strident and arrogant with their denials.
I think the govt is usually at a disadvantage going against big corporations and their lobbyists. I think they gave VW every opportunity to come clean until they were caught dead to right. It looks like the same situation might be happening in Europe as well.
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This ISN'T a Safety Recall.
A safety recall only effects the occupants of the vehicle so it behooves THEM to get it done.
In theory this would effect EVERYONE ELSE on the planet (not just the occupants of the vehicle).
You're joking right?? All of the sudden a VW emission issue has made the US the environmental leader of the world? US manufacturing companies only comply with pollution regulations because they are forced to. We scoffed at the Kyoto accords. Keystone pipe line or bust. Drill Baby Drill. America's love affair with giant SUVs. But VW Jettas and Passats, this is just too much.
Give me a break.
-AJ
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You're joking right?? All of the sudden a VW emission issue has made the US the environmental leader of the world? US manufacturing companies only comply with pollution regulations because they are forced to. We scoffed at the Kyoto accords. Keystone pipe line or bust. Drill Baby Drill. America's love affair with giant SUVs. But VW Jettas and Passats, this is just too much.
Give me a break.
-AJ
Apparently the European cars have the defeat code installed but even with it the emissions are below European standards.
-AJ
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For those that like raw data straight from the source:
http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf (http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf)
I believe Vehicle A is the Jetta TDI, Vehicle B is the Passat TDI, Vehicle C is the BMW.
-AJ
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Theme song to this debacle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fssblRRCgmg
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You're joking right?? All of the sudden a VW emission issue has made the US the environmental leader of the world? US manufacturing companies only comply with pollution regulations because they are forced to. We scoffed at the Kyoto accords. Keystone pipe line or bust. Drill Baby Drill. America's love affair with giant SUVs. But VW Jettas and Passats, this is just too much.
Give me a break.
-AJ
No I'm not joking.
You read the quote and link in post #250, that's one example of the potential problem.
That US companies only comply with EPA regulations through force doesn't mean the regulations aren't necessary.
The litmus test for morality of an action is simple, "if everyone does it, would it hurt humanity". If the answer is YES then the action is immoral (and it is a resounding yes that IF every automaker or every vehicle owner, ignored emissions standards it would no doubt hurt humanity).
Don't get me wrong, I'm not weighing the value of this pollution vs. that of another source. I'm talking about the one, regulated and documented source. But it is one that has been cheating the system to the tune of 500,000 cars. That's not an insignificant piece of the puzzle.
But I was just pointing out what makes this different from a safety recall.
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I poured enough iron and worked around enough heavy metals to be a big fan of regulation. Heavy regulation. And I am a bleeding heart liberal socialist. But I don't see no way no how that industry and government in this country is going to increase regulations based on this on the CONSUMER. Heck we have such a non working bureaucracy there's no way state DOT offices are going to coordinate with Feds on this.
-AJ
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I'm not predicting whether they will or won't, but there if more justification and motivation than ever before.
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Theme song to this debacle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fssblRRCgmg
Mr Blue Sky, where have you been hiding so long... -under a cloud of VW fumes!
http://youtu.be/98P-gu_vMRc
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500,000 TDIs making 40% more emissions than required standard, is hardly a drop in the bucket of total traffic out there running every day.
UPDATE: I heard that value on the news (40%), but after some searches, I find that they are saying up to 40 times the standard. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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I thought it was 11 million vehicles worldwide (500K in US only) emitting 40 times the NOX levels, not 40% more! Did I read that incorrectly somewhere?
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And it spreads...
BBC was saying it was over a false report.
This CNN story seems to suggest it is a fluke, one model testing out of parameters.
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/24/bmw-shares-slip-on-report-of-high-emission-levels.html.
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Other perspective. Ive seen here news that American cars are less safe then euopean cars. Every car is more poluting and consuming on the road then in testenvironment. What is new?
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12039373_421874731335016_4531834031703018435_n.jpg?oh=aaca573e0bd03e0a0e5e8da39434a6dd&oe=56646642)
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I'm sat at the computer and looking out of the window at my neighbour peering at the exhaust of his VW Golf diesel and scratching his head. Near it stands my wife's Vauxhall (GM) 1.6 petrol Astra which he often sniffs at for being downmarket. It's a good job I haven't got a weak bladder or I would be pissing myself. :boozing:
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My wife drives a 2012 Jetta Sportwagon TDI with approx 50k. Bought it for mileage, but was amazed with performance. Has the sport 6 spd auto. Got a letter from VW last Spring to bring it in for a software upgrade. I rarely drive it, but recently did and mentioned that it didn't feel as 'peppy'. Haven't checked for mpg changes. I'm wondering if they didn't try to switch things back before this story was broken?
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Other perspective. Ive seen here news that American cars are less safe then euopean cars. Every car is more poluting and consuming on the road then in testenvironment. What is new?
They are DIFFERENT perspectives. Not likely based on reality, but different.
I doubt highly that ALL EU cars are safer than ALL US cars. Unless there was some ridiculous standard not adopted by US cars that's just not going to be the case. I'm sure there are individual examples that perform better and worse in both camps.
As for "more polluting" on the road, that's a skewed perspective since it ignores that it is EXPECTED to be a linear difference, not a 40 times the regulated amount spike the second the car KNOWS it's not being sniffed.
But given the same rpm, load, etc. no car is EXPECTED to be more polluting just because it's not on the roller.
Other perspective. Ive seen here news that American cars are less safe then euopean cars. Every car is more poluting and consuming on the road then in testenvironment. What is new?
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12039373_421874731335016_4531834031703018435_n.jpg?oh=aaca573e0bd03e0a0e5e8da39434a6dd&oe=56646642)
Assholes are assholes whether individuals or corporate.
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My wife drives a 2012 Jetta Sportwagon TDI with approx 50k. Bought it for mileage, but was amazed with performance. Has the sport 6 spd auto. Got a letter from VW last Spring to bring it in for a software upgrade. I rarely drive it, but recently did and mentioned that it didn't feel as 'peppy'. Haven't checked for mpg changes. I'm wondering if they didn't try to switch things back before this story was broken?
I thought someone posted a link already (maybe it was on another discussion board).
I was chuckling about this yesterday with all the "they won't make me change this" crowd. Or the "don't blame VW crowd".
Seems that VW has been aware of this and working with at least CARB (if not the EPA too) since at least DECEMBER 2014 and in April 2015 they issued the first recall on this already and yes anyone who has been in since then for that recall has already been reflashed.
With that recall (and I'm assuming others they had planned) they had hoped to satisfy the EPA and avoid the penalty. I'll see if I can find that link again.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/24/us-usa-volkswagen-letters-exclusive-idUSKCN0RO0BD20150924
In April of 2015, Volkswagen of America, Inc.(VOWG_p.DE) sent letters to California owners of diesel-powered Audis and Volkswagens informing them of an “emissions service action” affecting the vehicles.
Owners were told they would need to take their cars to a dealer for new software to ensure tailpipe emissions were "optimized and operating efficiently."
The company didn’t explain that it was taking the action in hopes of satisfying government regulators, who were growing increasingly skeptical about the reason for discrepancies between laboratory emissions test results and real world pollution from Volkswagen’s diesel cars.
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Assholes are assholes whether individuals or corporate.
That picture shows a truck that is obviously off-road, which may or may not be legal, but, tampering with the emissions controls to "roll coal" on a road-going truck is absolutely illegal, just not enforced as it should be.
I lurked on some of the diesel truck forums for a while before buying my F-350 w/ Powerstroke. The general attitude there is "eff the EPA". There are lots of threads about removing EGR, DPF, and DEF systems, as well as talk of installing tunes for the express purpose of "rolling coal." I can sort of understand removing the emissions crap to make the truck perform better, get better MPG, or be more reliable ( one of the benefits of an EGR delete on the 6.0L Powerstroke), but tuning for the express purpose of beltching out black smoke w/o the benefit of additional HP/torque? That is the definitely of assholeness right there.
I think any LEO that sees a truck "Rolling Coal" should have the truck impounded on the spot for an emissions inspection. Heck, I can see these jerks causing accidents because the hapless individuals behind them can't see where they're going.
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Seems that VW has been aware of this and working with at least CARB (if not the EPA too) since at least DECEMBER 2014 and in April 2015 they issued the first recall on this already and yes anyone who has been in since then for that recall has already been reflashed.
With that recall (and I'm assuming others they had planned) they had hoped to satisfy the EPA and avoid the penalty. I'll see if I can find that link again.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/24/us-usa-volkswagen-letters-exclusive-idUSKCN0RO0BD20150924
I had both our TDI's in for that recall. Neither seems to have lost any performance or MPG, but, then again, it doesn't seem to have reduced the emissions enough to appease CARB or the EPA either.
VW was real vague about the reason for the recall in the letters they sent out.
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That picture shows a truck that is obviously off-road, which may or may not be legal, but, tampering with the emissions controls to "roll coal" on a road-going truck is absolutely illegal, just not enforced as it should be.
I lurked on some of the diesel truck forums for a while before buying my F-350 w/ Powerstroke. The general attitude there is "eff the EPA". There are lots of threads about removing EGR, DPF, and DEF systems, as well as talk of installing tunes for the express purpose of "rolling coal." I can sort of understand removing the emissions crap to make the truck perform better, get better MPG, or be more reliable ( one of the benefits of an EGR delete on the 6.0L Powerstroke), but tuning for the express purpose of beltching out black smoke w/o the benefit of additional HP/torque? That is the definitely of assholeness right there.
I think any LEO that sees a truck "Rolling Coal" should have the truck impounded on the spot for an emissions inspection. Heck, I can see these jerks causing accidents because the hapless individuals behind them can't see where they're going.
It's hard to say "I can understand removing or altering emissions controls to make it perform better" but then get pissed about someone who rolls coal (which is just an extreme of the same thing).
So now you know why for 20 years I've PRETTY MUCH kept my bike motors stock.
The Breva 1100 was one of the only exceptions and I only did that when I felt both the constant pinging that couldn't be cured through the dealer network and the exceptional heat from the cat-con couldn't otherwise be dealt with. But first I exhausted all legal options.
Even my Harleys have all been 50 state street legal.
That's why my EVAP canisters are in place.
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I had both our TDI's in for that recall. Neither seems to have lost any performance or MPG, but, then again, it doesn't seem to have reduced the emissions enough to appease CARB or the EPA either.
VW was real vague about the reason for the recall in the letters they sent out.
INTERESTING.
It's encouraging that you haven't noticed any loss of performance or MPG.
But yeah, maybe it was because it wasn't a big enough of a change.
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That picture shows a truck that is obviously off-road, which may or may not be legal, but, tampering with the emissions controls to "roll coal" on a road-going truck is absolutely illegal, just not enforced as it should be.
I lurked on some of the diesel truck forums for a while before buying my F-350 w/ Powerstroke. The general attitude there is "eff the EPA". There are lots of threads about removing EGR, DPF, and DEF systems, as well as talk of installing tunes for the express purpose of "rolling coal." I can sort of understand removing the emissions crap to make the truck perform better, get better MPG, or be more reliable ( one of the benefits of an EGR delete on the 6.0L Powerstroke), but tuning for the express purpose of beltching out black smoke w/o the benefit of additional HP/torque? That is the definitely of assholeness right there.
I think any LEO that sees a truck "Rolling Coal" should have the truck impounded on the spot for an emissions inspection. Heck, I can see these jerks causing accidents because the hapless individuals behind them can't see where they're going.
Last evening, as I was approaching the stop sign at the main road outside my neighborhood, some d00d went by in his bro-dozer and rolled-coal for about 500-feet. I literally could not see the oncoming traffic to my right until the smoke/soot settled to the ground, so I just sat there at the stop sign shaking my head... Waiting until I could see well enough to make my left turn...
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See it all the time driving round here. Truck of choice send to be the Dodge Ram with stacks in the bed or Chevy'sv with huge tail pipes smoking everyone behind them. Haven't seen to many Ford'sb with the diesel belch, not sure why. There a reason why rural America does not have emission testing. ;)
-AJ
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Last evening, as I was approaching the stop sign at the main road outside my neighborhood, some d00d went by in his bro-dozer and rolled-coal for about 500-feet. I literally could not see the oncoming traffic to my right until the smoke/soot settled to the ground, so I just sat there at the stop sign shaking my head... Waiting until I could see well enough to make my left turn...
It has happened to me on the bike and in the Prius which is one of their targets. Assholes.
"That picture shows a truck that is obviously off-road..."
Maybe in PA but not down here and I don't know how they can stand the noise from those tires.
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About the little group in WV that busted VW:
"Volkswagen was cheating. That's what everyone in the project began to suspect but wouldn't dare to say out loud.
"It's the sort of thing you just don't go around accusing companies of doing unless you're absolutely sure," says John German, with the International Council on Clean Transportation — the group that commissioned the test. German immediately suspected Volkswagen had done something not completely unheard of in the car business: install what's called a defeat device.
"The quick definition is something that tells the computer when you're on the official test cycle and when you're not. And when you're not, you change how the emission control system works," he says.
German says the deceit doesn't just stop with a programmer writing code.
"It's both writing the code, but you also need to do validation. So someone had to take these vehicles out, test them on the standard test cycle, make sure that the emission controls are supposed to be working when they're supposed to be working," he says.
German's group turned its data over to the Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board. He says things like this start with one little lie or cheat at a time.
"You take a little step, you don't get caught. So yeah, you take another little step," he says. "And then maybe you don't even realize how far over the line you are."
So does he feel vindicated?
"I think vindicated is the wrong word. I feel satisfaction that we have contributed to something that will have a major impact on public health," he says. "But vindication implies that we are out to get somebody. And we weren't. We had no idea that this was out there."
The question now for investigators and prosecutors from Korea to Germany to the U.S. is how many people at Volkswagen knew and how far up that knowledge went."
http://www.npr.org/2015/09/24/443053672/how-a-little-lab-in-west-virginia-caught-volkswagens-big-cheat?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20150925
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Other perspective. Ive seen here news that American cars are less safe then euopean cars. Every car is more poluting and consuming on the road then in testenvironment. What is new?
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12039373_421874731335016_4531834031703018435_n.jpg?oh=aaca573e0bd03e0a0e5e8da39434a6dd&oe=56646642)
Google translate...
Diesel vehicles in America
Not serious? Or?
Parts which, when you think it's just silly ...
Expect the other side to use pictures of "shower" chambers.
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It's hard to say "I can understand removing or altering emissions controls to make it perform better" but then get pissed about someone who rolls coal (which is just an extreme of the same thing).
Rolling coal is being an asshole for the sake of being an asshole.
Improving fuel economy (which was also in my statement) is saving money AND fuel (read on). I understand that motivation.
Also, I sometimes question the environmental impact of an emission control that causes MORE FUEL TO BE CONSUMED.
That means more CO (poison) and CO2 (greenhouse gas / global warming) emissions, and more indirect environmental impact due to more fuel needing to be extracted, refined and transported (all of which have environmental impact).
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Last evening, as I was approaching the stop sign at the main road outside my neighborhood, some d00d went by in his bro-dozer and rolled-coal for about 500-feet. I literally could not see the oncoming traffic to my right until the smoke/soot settled to the ground, so I just sat there at the stop sign shaking my head... Waiting until I could see well enough to make my left turn...
It's enough to make you wish you has an RPG to shoot them wish.
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Last evening, as I was approaching the stop sign at the main road outside my neighborhood, some d00d went by in his bro-dozer and rolled-coal for about 500-feet. I literally could not see the oncoming traffic to my right until the smoke/soot settled to the ground, so I just sat there at the stop sign shaking my head... Waiting until I could see well enough to make my left turn...
All the asshats that roll-coal in America should be sent to live in Beijing China for a couple of months,and get the experience of living with polluted air.
Here is a link to the story. http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/04/asia/china-beijing-blue-sky-disappears-after-military-parade/ (http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/04/asia/china-beijing-blue-sky-disappears-after-military-parade/)
(http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150904021650-beijing-parade-blue-before-after-exlarge-169.jpg)
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Rolling coal is being an asshole for the sake of being an asshole.
Improving fuel economy (which was also in my statement) is saving money AND fuel (read on). I understand that motivation.
Also, I sometimes question the environmental impact of an emission control that causes MORE FUEL TO BE CONSUMED.
That means more CO (poison) and CO2 (greenhouse gas / global warming) emissions, and more indirect environmental impact due to more fuel needing to be extracted, refined and transported (all of which have environmental impact).
You can JUSTIFY IT to yourself any way you want.
But in BOTH CASES you're purposely ignoring statues that are designed for the welfare of the general public.
In both cases you are putting your desires ahead of those of everyone else.
If you don't agree with the regulations, work within the system to change them.
But look at China today, look at LA 20-30 years ago, you cannot simply hide your head in the sand and pretend there is no effect.
At the end of the day the justification "it's just one small motorcycle/car" and "I'm JUST improving ________" (mpg, performance, whatever) means nothing.
See my earlier statements about the morality/immorality of an action. If everyone did it would it help or harm? This is black and white, if everyone did it we'd be polluting the CRAP out of the only home we have.
And therefore you can't point a finger at an industry that pollutes MORE and say "well, mine is a drop in the bucket compared to them". They may be the current greater offender, but it doesn't change the base righteousness of your own offense.
To be clear, I'm not attacking you personally, but I am attacking the general attitude we see across the board by fellow motor vehicle enthusiasts who justify their anti-social behavior (be it loud pipes or engines tuned for performance and out of compliance with emissions standards). It's all the same thing, "I do it because I want to and @#%%# everyone else."
Kinda reminds me of what an intelligent Fox Anchor (Shep Smith) just said in the news about the Pope's Visit:
http://www.vox.com/2015/9/24/9387833/shep-smith-pope-francis
To paraphrase, "this isn't being political, this is not being an asshole".
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You can JUSTIFY IT to yourself any way you want.
But in BOTH CASES you're purposely ignoring statues that are designed for the welfare of the general public.
I wasn't trying to justify it, but, just trying to understand the motivation behind it.
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But look at China today, look at LA 20-30 years ago, you cannot simply hide your head in the sand and pretend there is no effect.
And just to be clear, I'm not hiding head in the sand. I AM doing my part to reduce pollution. I bought fuel efficient vehicles (rather than gas guzzling SUV's that are so popular in this country) that were also sold to me as being "clean." I've taken many measures in my home to reduce energy consumption, and make use of renewable (9 KW of solar on my roof) and carbon neutral (wood pellet instead of fuel oil) energy.
Yes, there was some economic motivation, but, also environmental. In all three cases, I could have gotten much better ROI with less effort through investing that money in something safe and conservative.
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Yeah. I don't understand dumping raw fuel in the exhaust for the express purpose of making a black cloud of smoke and soot.
Kev, while you're correct in a black & white kind of way, rolling coal and dumping soot is on the top end of the scale of WTFs of hot-rodding.
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Yeah. I don't understand dumping raw fuel in the exhaust for the express purpose of making a black cloud of smoke and soot.
Kev, while you're correct in a black & white kind of way, rolling coal and dumping soot is on the top end of the scale of WTFs of hot-rodding.
It's pretty easy to understand, and all of a piece with the jacked-up suspension, the open pipes, the fake bull-sack hanging from the trailer hitch. All substitutes for the testicles that the driver WISHES he had, but never will.
I see these guys all the time here at home. A 6-foot tall huge truck pulls up, and a 98-pound l'il dude with 10 pounds of boots where all you can see is a beard, sunglasses, and a Deere hat climbs down ...
Lannis
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It's pretty easy to understand, and all of a piece with the jacked-up suspension, the open pipes, the fake bull-sack hanging from the trailer hitch. All substitutes for the testicles that the driver WISHES he had, but never will.
I see these guys all the time here at home. A 6-foot tall huge truck pulls up, and a 98-pound l'il dude with 10 pounds of boots where all you can see is a beard, sunglasses, and a Deere hat climbs down ...
Lannis
Hard not to laugh.
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It's pretty easy to understand, and all of a piece with the jacked-up suspension, the open pipes, the fake bull-sack hanging from the trailer hitch. All substitutes for the testicles that the driver WISHES he had, but never will.
I see these guys all the time here at home. A 6-foot tall huge truck pulls up, and a 98-pound l'il dude with 10 pounds of boots where all you can see is a beard, sunglasses, and a Deere hat climbs down ...
Lannis
OMG, too funny.
It is definitely more than black and white. If we really want to point fingers at others for being environmentally irresponsible, we have to consider that our favorite form of entertainment/recreation involves burning fossil fuels to go, an many cases no place in particular, in other words ride for the sake of the ride.
There are definitely degrees of magnitude.
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OMG, too funny.
It is definitely more than black and white. If we really want to point fingers at others for being environmentally irresponsible, we have to consider that our favorite form of entertainment/recreation involves burning fossil fuels to go, an many cases no place in particular, in other words ride for the sake of the ride.
There are definitely degrees of magnitude.
No doubt about it. The guys who go everywhere on their bicycles and don't own a motor vehicle have every right to hang us motorcycle riders on the same scaffold with the coal-rollers ..... But I'll let my conscience be my guide!
Lannis
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So let me get this right. VW diesel cars have been putting out up to 40x the allowable amount of nox for 7 years and no one noticed?
The owners did not notice.
Their neighbors did not notice.
The EPA did not notice.
Obviously the "health" concerns are not as great as we are lead to believe, since
no one noticed
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And just to be clear, I'm not hiding head in the sand. I AM doing my part to reduce pollution. I bought fuel efficient vehicles (rather than gas guzzling SUV's that are so popular in this country) that were also sold to me as being "clean." I've taken many measures in my home to reduce energy consumption, and make use of renewable (9 KW of solar on my roof) and carbon neutral (wood pellet instead of fuel oil) energy.
You do have to wonder what does actually cause more pollution -
1. Stock EFI motorcycle with cat-con
2. Stock DIESEL car.
3. Stock petrol car that gets half the mileage of the diesel or bike?
I realize the answer to that will vary.
The motorcycle and even the diesel don't meet the stricter standards of the petrol car, but at least the diesel is supposed to be getting close. Of course the cycle and the diesel burn a smaller volume, so is that enough to offset the dirtier pollutants?
I don't pretend there is just one answer or that I have it.
Yeah. I don't understand dumping raw fuel in the exhaust for the express purpose of making a black cloud of smoke and soot.
Kev, while you're correct in a black & white kind of way, rolling coal and dumping soot is on the top end of the scale of WTFs of hot-rodding.
Understood, and I do realize that at some point one has to entertain the question of extent. But really in the end, that just equals justification for going against the "greater good", no?
So let me get this right. VW diesel cars have been putting out up to 40x the allowable amount of nox for 7 years and no one noticed?
The owners did not notice.
Their neighbors did not notice.
The EPA did not notice.
Obviously the "health" concerns are not as great as we are lead to believe, since
no one noticed
Are we supposed to think that the health concerns are instant? Someone starts their VW and a neighbor dies of lung disease?
The effects of all of these things (all our internal combustion motors) are cumulative, but they add up.
Look I'm not taking a position here that we need to shut down all internal combustion motors and go back to the stone age.
I'm taking a position that we should think long and hard before we advocate circumventing the regulatory standards just so we can get MORE kicks. I'm taking a position that perhaps it's good to make more choices on the side of conservation without becoming a hemp wearing/cave dwelling luddite. There's some middle ground.
But I'm also taking the position that the asshole rolling coal or screaming with loud pipes might not be all that different morally speaking from the one ditching their EVAP systems and cat-cons while loading maps to richen up their mixtures in search of more hp. They're still selfishly pursuing whatever makes THEM happy.
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I think I figured it out....
VW is responsible for GLOBAL WARMING!! We now have proof of the missing link!!
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Because Free America!
LOL!
-AJ
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So let me get this right. VW diesel cars have been putting out up to 40x the allowable amount of nox for 7 years and no one noticed?
The owners did not notice.
Their neighbors did not notice.
The EPA did not notice.
Obviously the "health" concerns are not as great as we are lead to believe, since
no one noticed
NOx pollution is 'noticed' - just not how you might think. In general, it leads to increased levels of asthma, haze-style smog, and acid rain. Many of these effects are downwind of the source, unless there is a geologic bowl to encourage inversions in the atmosphere. The increase in haze pollution in major European cities has been puzzling to researchers, since the official numbers said source levels shouldn't produce that kind of increase - but they couldn't pin down where the sources were. Since Diesels are so much more popular there, this goes a ways (not fully) towards explaining the matter. In the US, diesel cars are not that popular in places like California, which is where geography and usage would otherwise allow the effect to more quickly be seen. I believe diesel auto sales make up only something like 3% of US sales - and Volkswagen has had about half of that. So even the 40 times higher number would be a subtle shift in the overall pollution issue, although a particularly nasty one right up there with high-sulphur soft coal.
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Looks like VW needs someone new to call the plays through their upcoming troubles. May I suggest Tom Brady?
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So the latest development is that Bosch wrote the software ostensibly for internal testing and told VW not to install it on production vehicles.
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So the latest development is that Bosch wrote the software ostensibly for internal testing and told VW not to install it on production vehicles.
Oh, that is the lamest excuse I've ever heard.
Even if they did, VW installed it and shipped cars with it.
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Oh, that is the lamest excuse I've ever heard.
Even if they did, VW installed it and shipped cars with it.
I don't think it is being offered as an excuse. Well, maybe it is some sort of attempt at deflection, but I think it is just an explanation as to how it came into being. I.E. they are attempting to say it was not developed to deceive government regulators but for use during testing.
That might be true or a bold faced lie. I dunno.
But it will be interesting to see how this all pans out.
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Turns out it may not be easy to charge VW with a crime against the EPA. Seems the Clean Air act has some long forgotten concessions to automakers..
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Turns out it may not be easy to charge VW with a crime against the EPA. Seems the Clean Air act has some long forgotten concessions to automakers..
Do tell...
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Charge the individuals. Interesting howbtjw Germans can't charge the corporation with criminal behavior but they can go after the individuals. Maybe they know.something we don't.
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Latest news:
Actual footage of the VW software design team at work. Justice dept. spokesman states this is the smoking gun they were looking for.
Gian4
http://videos.huffingtonpost.com/entertainment/the-producers-1968-deluxe-edition-dvd-clip-517603102
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Oh, that is the lamest excuse I've ever heard.
Is not an excuse.
Simply, to use on the road an experimental software intended for test use only, was less expensive than buy from Daimler the BlueTec tecnology and implement it.
When it was the time to adapt the diesels to the Euro-5, several automakers had developed patented tecnologies to do it without affecting the performances of the engines (PSA's advanced particulate filters, Fiat's Multijet II, Daimler BlueTec...) and those that didn't had to buy them from those who did.
VW, that was just switching from injector-pump to common-rail diesel engines, had not the time to develop a proprietary tecnology. So, the plan of the then CEO of VW, Wolfgang Bernhard, was to buy the Blue Tec devices from Daimler, and use them on VW cars.
Ferdinand Piech ousted Bernhard in january 2007, and VW cancelled the BlueTec plan few days after.
But there wasn't a plan-B.
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But there wasn't a plan-B.
Plan B became known as Plan Bumpkus...company wide collusion (following orders or get fired). Always amazed that folks will do something criminal/illegal and don't have the stones to blow the whistle on an obviously illegal process. Now they will all claim they were just following orders...now where did we hear that last? I love the Passat TDI, but if it turns out that mileage or performance is materially impacted, I would hope to be able to turn it in and get a refund or get some compensation for the delta...but we'll see if there are any teeth in the enforcement process. Ultimately I think this hurts VW more for future sales and general reputation, so the knock on impact for them could be severe in terms of loss of future sales/brand impairment. If that's the case, then perhaps they'll pay out the appropriate amount for the "gap" in value. If they decide they're going to suffer no matter how much they pay out, then the pay outs may be limited.
Either way...I'm hoping the same technology was not used in Land Rover's new diesel options, as I have been waiting 10 years and they are just around the corner here...we'll see how those perform!
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Either way...I'm hoping the same technology was not used in Land Rover's new diesel options, as I have been waiting 10 years and they are just around the corner here...we'll see how those perform!
I understand the new diesel tech in Land Rovers came from their new owners - after all, Tata has been building diesels for generations now, and just look at their high tech! :evil:
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Well...did Tata really help develop the diesel or was it Solihull born? I'm still trying to ferret that out...but I hear you!
Save the Tata's! :)
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The EPA could always issue a waiver for the existing owners and use that as a justification to soak some more billions in fines that could be ongoing ala carbon credits.
In other words, the US could refuse the import of any VW vehicles getting less than a certain EPA rating to offset the models currently in possession while at the same time extracting some payments until all the emission overages are offset.
That would be both punishment and a revenue collection. VW would have to weigh the cost/benefit to accepting that or just take back all the vehicles and offer new as compensation.
Another route would be to require the Germans to accept a higher ratio of our car exports to their country, something the US auto makers would cry with joy for.
Creative skinning of the cat will no doubt be part if all this.
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The EPA could always issue a waiver for the existing owners and use that as a justification to soak some more billions in fines that could be ongoing ala carbon credits.
In other words, the US could refuse the import of any VW vehicles getting less than a certain EPA rating to offset the models currently in possession while at the same time extracting some payments until all the emission overages are offset.
That would be both punishment and a revenue collection. VW would have to weigh the cost/benefit to accepting that or just take back all the vehicles and offer new as compensation.
Another route would be to require the Germans to accept a higher ratio of our car exports to their country, something the US auto makers would cry with joy for.
Creative skinning of the cat will no doubt be part if all this.
Yep. make 'em buy "carbon credits" for the existing cars that don't meet spec.
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Another route would be to require the Germans to accept a higher ratio of our car exports to their country, something the US auto makers would cry with joy for.
Of course you would actually have to pursuade us to buy them............... ..
Do the Germans restrict the number of cars imported anyway, his would seem a very difficult thing to do in a single EU country.
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Of course you would actually have to pursuade us to buy them............... ..
Do the Germans restrict the number of cars imported anyway, his would seem a very difficult thing to do in a single EU country.
That's another story, isn't there an equivalent cash for clunkers?
Never underestimate the creativity of governments to straighten the shaft and then see how far it will go. If you're lucky, the wallet stops it.
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Yep. make 'em buy "carbon credits" for the existing cars that don't meet spec.
And leave my car alone -- it runs great and gets good fuel economy the way it is.
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As I mentioned in a (far) earlier post in this thread, software code review is going to have to be part of the regulatory process for all relevant vehicles from here on.
Fortunately, my view is shared by some people of substantially more influence than mine... Bruce Schneier, for example: http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/28/opinions/schneier-vw-cheating-software/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/28/opinions/schneier-vw-cheating-software/index.html)
(edit for a typo)
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The problem with carbon credits is that they don't scrub any carbon out of the air. They just make money flow over a dying planet. Stupidest f***ing brain fart ever invented.
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Dying planet???? Give me a brake. :rolleyes:
Gian4
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it looks like they might have to make hardware changes, perhaps even the Urea.
http://news.yahoo.com/illegal-volkswagen-diesel-emission-systems-may-require-two-223240284--finance.html
Beginning in 2012, Volkswagen offered the same 2.0 TDI engines with a more sophisticated and expensive emissions control system called Selective Catalytic Reduction. These systems, which debuted on VW's largest car, the Passat, injected a liquid urea solution into the exhaust to break down the nitrogen oxides.
These systems also had software that turned them off during normal driving, the company has admitted. The consequences of running the systems all the time will be different for consumers than the older, NOx traps.
Ideally, the urea solution used to control smog-forming gases is supposed to be replaced every 10,000 miles, typically by a dealer, but VW encountered potential problems.
On newer models with the SCR system, Trahan said there were concerns within the company about the urea consumption being so great that it would require separate "fill-ups" every 5,000 miles, rather than the desired 10,000-mile intervals that are typical between engine oil changes.
A software update on the newer diesel models equipped with SCR devices could lead to "reduced vehicle performance and fuel economy and increased urea use," said analyst Kevin Riddell of LMC Automotive. The new software "also will have an impact on resale value and potential marketability,"
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The problem with carbon credits is that they don't scrub any carbon out of the air. They just make money flow over a dying planet. Stupidest f***ing brain fart ever invented.
Of course it's stupid why else do you think governments endorse and use them?
But the planet was dying as soon and it was created. Human beings are just one species in a never ending line of species to inhabit the earth. We won't be the last, many will come afterwards. Nothing can be destroyed, only changed into something else.
Humans can't and won't kill the planet, the planet will eventually kill off humans.
The idea that some tipping point, artificially created that if not crossed would mean humans would inhabit the earth until the sun goes Nova is preposterous. One way or another, humans are temporary inhabitants.
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It's a LOT easier to mock the science of climate change when you know your sorry ass will be dead in a few years, isn't it?
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I don't think the urea systems will fit in the Jetta and Beatle.
-AJ
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I suppose a filter change every couple of thousand miles would suffice.
I am not sure what they mean about the hardware (two) solution(s).
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I don't think the urea systems will fit in the Jetta and Beatle.
-AJ
Why not? Just delete the spare and there's your space for the DEF tank. :evil:
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i
Ideally, the urea solution used to control smog-forming gases is supposed to be replaced every 10,000 miles, typically by a dealer, but VW encountered potential problems.
On newer models with the SCR system, Trahan said there were concerns within the company about the urea consumption being so great that it would require separate "fill-ups" every 5,000 miles, rather than the desired 10,000-mile intervals that are typical between engine oil changes.
Why is 5,000 miles between DEF fillups a problem? Many gas stations now have DEF at the pump, with the diesel.
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Hey Mike, don't ask me, ask the guy that wrote it. Or Ask VW.
:grin:
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Of course it's stupid why else do you think governments endorse and use them?
But the planet was dying as soon and it was created. Human beings are just one species in a never ending line of species to inhabit the earth. We won't be the last, many will come afterwards. Nothing can be destroyed, only changed into something else.
Humans can't and won't kill the planet, the planet will eventually kill off humans.
The idea that some tipping point, artificially created that if not crossed would mean humans would inhabit the earth until the sun goes Nova is preposterous. One way or another, humans are temporary inhabitants.
As long as we're discussing this .... I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and ... oh, I don't know the cure .....
Smith
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As long as we're discussing this .... I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and ... oh, I don't know the cure .....
Smith
" Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure. "
(http://img04.deviantart.net/35c3/i/2005/062/d/8/agent_smith_by_puckducker.jpg)
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WTF are you two guys talking about :huh: Although in some ways Lannis' rant makes perfect sense :shocked:
Dusty
You didn't know who John Wayne was, no way you're going to know who Agent Smith is.
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You didn't know who John Wayne was, no way you're going to know who Agent Smith is.
You are probably correct , just curious where that piece of wisdom came from .
Dusty
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You are probably correct , just curious where that piece of wisdom came from .
Dusty
The Matrix. It's actually pretty deep:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0133093/?ref_=nv_sr_1
Agent Smith. The computer virus who ironically believes Humans are a virus on earth:
http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0000745/bio
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Ya'know, if you gotta explain yur joke......... :violent1:
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Ya'know, if you gotta explain yur joke......... :violent1:
It's not so bad if you're explaining it to the ONLY guy on the Internet who claims never to heard of Google and doesn't know how to use it. A short break and a Google tutorial might be in order, but hey .....
Lannis
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That's another story, isn't there an equivalent cash for clunkers?
There is, and had been used several times, but it must be equal for all the cars that meet certain pollution standards, otherwise is a state aid to a certain maker, and is forbidden under the EU rules. So it's difficult to change the ratios between car makers with it.
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You didn't know who John Wayne was, no way you're going to know who Agent Smith is.
I thought Dusty WAS John Wayne?
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And leave my car alone -- it runs great and gets good fuel economy the way it is.
And pollutes more than it should. There shouldn't be exceptions. We're all in this together, we should all be expected to meet the same standards.
Now I realize globally that's a tougher issue to solve than it is in JUST the US.
And I realize plenty of people cheat it individually too, but that could change.
and non of those facts excuses the 500,000 on the road in the US now.
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Humans can't and won't kill the planet, the planet will eventually kill off humans.
Semantics. Rendering the planet effectively "DEAD" for us is the point.
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Oh Google is familiar , just couldn't for the life of me figure out why Lannis was sounding like George Carlin :shocked:
Dusty
You mean he was being funny for a change. :kiss: :laugh: :boozing:
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You mean he was being funny for a change. :kiss: :laugh: :boozing:
Oh, listen who's talking, Mr. DarkSide Lecturer And Corrector Of All Who Don't Bow To The Gospel According To Kev m ...... a little humor might lighten you up a bit too ..... :laugh: :grin:
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Oh, listen who's talking, Mr. DarkSide Lecturer And Corrector Of All Who Don't Bow To The Gospel According To Kev m ...... a little humor might lighten you up a bit too ..... :laugh: :grin:
I'm F'n hilarious. When I'm not dealing with curmudgeons. :whip2: :evil:
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.....We're all in this together.....
Commie pinko one-worlder sentiment. The cure: you need to get off the grid, get into camos, and ride your Harley more.
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Commie pinko one-worlder sentiment. The cure: you need to get off the grid, get into camos, and ride your Harley more.
I'm not a big fan of organized religion, but couldn't that equally have been a Christian statement?
And well, LOL, but yeah, but I like the grid. I work in an oft-times empty house. It's nice to have some words (if not voices) other than my own in my head sometimes. :huh: :boozing: :huh:
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I'm not a big fan of organized religion, but couldn't that equally have been a Christian statement?
Ha! The original commie pinko one worlder. Well, maybe The Buddha was earlier.
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Of course it's stupid why else do you think governments endorse and use them?
But the planet was dying as soon and it was created. Human beings are just one species in a never ending line of species to inhabit the earth. We won't be the last, many will come afterwards. Nothing can be destroyed, only changed into something else.
Humans can't and won't kill the planet, the planet will eventually kill off humans.
The idea that some tipping point, artificially created that if not crossed would mean humans would inhabit the earth until the sun goes Nova is preposterous. One way or another, humans are temporary inhabitants.
I love your college professor impersonation. Now I'll do my and put what you just said in a nutshell "f*** THE PLANET". I will always side with mother earth because as a very smart man with funny hair once said "If it wasn't for six inches of top soil and the fact that once in a while it rains we wouldn't be here."
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"Something" is coming! Lets all overreact before thinking.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/doomed3_zpsprfal4ra.gif)
Hold on to your wallet.
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I thought Dusty WAS John Wayne?
No, Dusty is an American Hero. John Wayne just played one on the screen.
True.
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And pollutes more than it should. There shouldn't be exceptions. We're all in this together, we should all be expected to meet the same standards.
And pollutes way less than the earlier models.
If I comply, VW should be required to compensate me for the lost value of my vehicles, in resale value, and/or in increased cost of ownership (which causes the loss in resale).
Now I realize globally that's a tougher issue to solve than it is in JUST the US.
And I realize plenty of people cheat it individually too, but that could change.
and non of those facts excuses the 500,000 on the road in the US now.
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And pollutes way less than the earlier models.
Irrelevant. Standards keep changing and going forward for a reason. You don't like the standards then buy an older one or work to change them. I sometimes think they're getting carried away with say motorcycle emissions or lawnmower, but the standards should progress.
If I comply, VW should be required to compensate me for the lost value of my vehicles, in resale value, and/or in increased cost of ownership (which causes the loss in resale).
That's between YOU and VW.
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And pollutes more than it should. There shouldn't be exceptions. We're all in this together, we should all be expected to meet the same standards.
Now I realize globally that's a tougher issue to solve than it is in JUST the US.
And I realize plenty of people cheat it individually too, but that could change.
and non of those facts excuses the 500,000 on the road in the US now.
Not to say of the unfair competition.
Everyone of those 500.000 veichles in US, and 11 million worlswide, had been sold to the detriment of competitors that used their money to develop real anti-pollution tecnologies, and not a software to recognize when the car is on the test bench.
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Not to say of the unfair competition.
Everyone of those 500.000 veichles in US, and 11 million worlswide, had been sold to the detriment of competitors that used their money to develop real anti-pollution tecnologies, and not a software to recognize when the car is on the test bench.
:bow:
ABSOLUTELY and a fantastic point that shouldn't be lost on us all!
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And pollutes way less than the earlier models.
If I comply, VW should be required to compensate me for the lost value of my vehicles, in resale value, and/or in increased cost of ownership (which causes the loss in resale).
Most drivers will likely comply, whether they want to or not. Even with no outside pressure compelling the owners to bring them in, the cars will be remapped or upfit any time they visit a dealership service department.
I think some sort of compensation will be offered to current owners. It probably won't be a cash payment- I envision some sort of trade in allowance or credit. Maybe an extra thousand bucks toward a new VW? Who knows. You could jump in on one of the class action suits to try to recoup some money, but all those will do is make the attorneys rich.
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:bow:
ABSOLUTELY and a fantastic point that shouldn't be lost on us all!
:1:
Mazda was to have brought their Skyactiv Diesel last year, maybe the year before that, but, never did. I'm assuming that it is because they couldn't meet emissions standards. Before I bought either of our VW's, I was was watching for the Mazda 3 diesel to come out. In my case, Mazda may have lost a sale to me because they didn't have their diesel out, when VW did, but, cheated to do so.
In fact, if VW was complying, there is a good chance that the Skyactiv turbo gas powered Mazda 3 would do as well on fuel economy as the TDI, and I might have gone for that instead.
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If what a car company makes today pollutes less than before and that makes cheating OK, then why bother making it pollute less, just say it does and be done with it.
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Fella here in town bought a new VW diesel 5 years ago , sure enough last week , bam , herpes .
Dusty
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Fella here in town bought a new VW diesel 5 years ago , sure enough last week , bam , herpes .
Dusty
WTF? :huh:
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WTF? :huh:
Last night a panther ate a chicken .
Dusty
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Last night a panther ate a chicken .
Dusty
And the cow jumped over the moon.
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And the cow jumped over the moon.
What color was the cow ?
Dusty
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I can see the direct cause and effect of all that, although a more shallow person wouldn't be able to associate the two over 5 years. :afro:
Didn't Huckleberry Finn (or maybe his buddy, Tom -- or maybe it was Huckabee) tell the story of the town drunk who crossed paths with a black cat and a mere 5 years later fell off the shot tower in a dead drunk and died? It was proof plenty of the black cat theory.
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Now we are getting somewhere . Seems to me , after much deep contemplation , and after reading most of the posts , is to have a bunch of old guys follow the affected VWs and pee up the tail pipes . It will help us old guys , and protect the environment .
Dusty
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Now we are getting somewhere . Seems to me , after much deep contemplation , and after reading most of the posts , is to have a bunch of old guys follow the affected VWs and pee up the tail pipes . It will help us old guys , and protect the environment .
Dusty
That's a good chuckle...except the Urea is supposed to be injected into the engine, not the tail pipe, kind of hard to pee in an engine while it's going down the road....now maybe VW will create a 4 way pee in system so all passengers can participate in this Dickensian Urea Heep activity!
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That's a good chuckle...except the Urea is supposed to be injected into the engine, not the tail pipe, kind of hard to pee in an engine while it's going down the road....now maybe VW will create a 4 way pee in system so all passengers can participate in this Dickensian Urea Heep activity!
"Dickensian Urea Heep" , :bow:
Anyway , so we are in agreement that the solution is to pee on it ?
Dusty
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Well dang John , THANKS ! Blushing a bit here , and I might say that guys like you that have lived and loved so well over an entire lifetime are pretty damned heroic also :bow:
Dusty
I hope this meeting of the WG Mutual Admiration Society adjourns soon ... the sugar, kittens, and butterflies are starting to cause problems with the system ....
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That's a good chuckle...except the Urea is supposed to be injected into the engine, not the tail pipe, Urea Heep activity!
Uh jokes aside, no that's not how it works. The DEF is injected into the exhaust.
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You guys make up your minds , do we pee in the intake or exhaust ?
Dusty
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"Dickensian Urea Heep" , :bow:
Anyway , so we are in agreement that the solution is to pee on it ?
Dusty
It can all be solved by demons, wizards, and some easy livin'...
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VW just sucks. I bought a 1977 VW Scirocco as my first car. Design was brilliant. Engineering was terrible, so were materials. Worst car I ever owned by a mile.
Often I have pondered buying another VW. Nice designs. Decent prices. But this corporate screw up, and lying, and deceit eliminates VW, and Porsche from any future purchase.
Never.
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You guys make up your minds , do we pee in the intake or exhaust ?
Dusty
Exhaust, but upstream of the cat.
Try not to burn yourself.
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You guys make up your minds , do we pee in the intake or exhaust ?
Dusty
Why must they be mutually exclusive?
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VW just sucks. I bought a 1977 VW Scirocco as my first car. Design was brilliant. Engineering was terrible, so were materials. Worst car I ever owned by a mile.
Often I have pondered buying another VW. Nice designs. Decent prices. But this corporate screw up, and lying, and deceit eliminates VW, and Porsche from any future purchase.
Never.
Now don't be that way,I hada '72 Ghia that was a decent car. Sure it took a year and a day to pass a car but the maintenance was minimal.
Reminds me of an old Guzzi.
Still I might buy a VW worth of stock instead of the car.........
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The 72 Ghia was arguably the best 12v air-cooled VW built. I'd have another.
The Sirocco was a rabbit -- first gen VW watercooled.
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The artist formerly known as Marion Morrison . Once again , in Oklahoma we prefer our cowboys to actually know the difference twixt a heifer and a steer :grin:
Dusty
Got it partner!
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VW just sucks. I bought a 1977 VW Scirocco as my first car. Design was brilliant. Engineering was terrible, so were materials. Worst car I ever owned by a mile.
Often I have pondered buying another VW. Nice designs. Decent prices. But this corporate screw up, and lying, and deceit eliminates VW, and Porsche from any future purchase.
Never.
Bought a beautiful Passat 4wd new in 2002. Had incredibly bad throttle response off idle that dealer/independent mechanic/I couldn't figure out how to fix and no help from warranty. Sold car in 2003, no VWs since.
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I'm really surprised that there hasn't been a call for more testing. Even with VW admitting wrong doing.
-AJ
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What color was the cow ?
Dusty
Well, cows produce a lot of methane, a serious greenhouse gas. I wonder whether the official numbers on bovine methane release have been doctored.
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Well, cows produce a lot of methane, a serious greenhouse gas. I wonder whether the official numbers on bovine methane release have been doctored.
Yeah , and they take up a lot of space also .
Dusty
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VW just sucks. I bought a 1977 VW Scirocco as my first car. Design was brilliant. Engineering was terrible, so were materials. Worst car I ever owned by a mile.
Often I have pondered buying another VW. Nice designs. Decent prices. But this corporate screw up, and lying, and deceit eliminates VW, and Porsche from any future purchase.
Never.
They all lie and deceive, at least they haven`t killed anyone like GM has with their deceptions. Which company do you think hasn`t lied that you would buy from? Nothing US for sure hasn`t lied about some of their crap.
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If lying was an issue for me I wouldn't have mortgage or a checking account or IRA.
-AJ
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So, today, I get two "Safety Recall" letters from VW, something about a steering wheel clock spring?
WTF is that? Is that like having to change the carburetor oil or something?
Oh, and get this; they don't have the parts yet, so, they'll be sending another recall notice when they have the part.
Since I can no longer trust anything VW says, the conspiracy theorist in me has got wonder if it is just a scare tactic to get owners to bring their cars in so they can put the emissions recall on when they're done with it.
I hate VW. I would be very happy if they'd just buy their *%&*@&* cars back from me for a fair market (before the lie) value so I could buy cars from a trust worthy company (who would that be).
EDIT: I looked up steering clock spring. It is a real part, but, I could still see lying, cheating VW withholding this recall until the emissions recall is ready so that they can inflict the emissions recall on cars that come in for the clock spring.
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Hmmm.
My understanding is that it's the diag-level software that's lying, not the mapping itself. If that's true, then what exactly is the recall doing -- correcting the diag software or changing the mapping? In other words, when it's over, does the vehicle comply with EPA or not? Do the economy and smog numbers actually change or not?
So who knows what's happening?
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It seems that VW may now be on the hook for $87Billion! These numbers keep going up every day...and sure enough, sales are starting to stagnate....no surprise there. I still think that it's the loss of future sales that will be the larger impact, as people will run away from the brand like they did for Audis with the unintended acceleration, it took quite a few years for these negative brand perceptions to revert, no matter what the reason for their origin.
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Hmmm.
My understanding is that it's the diag-level software that's lying, not the mapping itself. If that's true, then what exactly is the recall doing -- correcting the diag software or changing the mapping? In other words, when it's over, does the vehicle comply with EPA or not? Do the economy and smog numbers actually change or not?
So who knows what's happening?
The real NOx emissions are too high. VW will have to change the software to increase the amount of EGR used, which will reduce NOx, fuel economy, and possibly performance.
Another option is to add SCR (selective catalyst reduction) Urea injection. That would be MUCH more expensive to add, but, could result in reducing the NOx emissions w/o reducing fuel economy, or at least having less impact on fuel economy.
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Fella here in town bought a new VW diesel 5 years ago , sure enough last week , bam , herpes .
= = =
I guess I got 2015-2012 = 3, so 2 years left.
Whew.
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Hmmm.
My understanding is that it's the diag-level software that's lying, not the mapping itself. If that's true, then what exactly is the recall doing -- correcting the diag software or changing the mapping? In other words, when it's over, does the vehicle comply with EPA or not? Do the economy and smog numbers actually change or not?
So who knows what's happening?
RK,
The ECU software detects when the car is being tested and turns on the emission equipment that is normally shut off during regular operation.
So if corrected the maps will change to meet emissions standards all the time.
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Fella here in town bought a new VW diesel 5 years ago , sure enough last week , bam , herpes .
= = =
I guess I got 2015-2012 = 3, so 2 years left.
Whew.
My understanding is only the 2010 models caused this issue :evil: Might be a good idea to be careful however , apparently VW has been a bit sneaky lately .
Dusty
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If this was only software, you'd think they'd have a fix out already and then deal with reduced performance later on.
Maybe the engines suffer other problems if they run within the emissions restrictions for any length of time
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Exhaust, but upstream of the cat.
You want me to pee on my cat she aint going to like that.
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Maybe the engines suffer other problems if they run within the emissions restrictions for any length of time
That's what they said immediately. If the engine runs within the emissions restrictions, it's lifespan, and that of the particulate filters, is expected to reduce.
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And now, Mr. Piech has returned "triumphantly" through the gates, chauffeured in his red Bentley by his wife.
Actually it happened the day after Winterkorn resigned. The Porsche family also increased their holdings of VW stock and now nears control of VW.
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http://www.tflcar.com/2015/10/how-much-power-does-the-vw-tdi-lose-in-cheater-mode-video-report/ (http://www.tflcar.com/2015/10/how-much-power-does-the-vw-tdi-lose-in-cheater-mode-video-report/)
When run in "EPA test mode", the 2.0L TDI looses as much as 32 ft*lbs at 2,700 RPM -- right were you need it when accelerating.
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That's a huge power drop. I would guess that would be noticeable to the average non-enthusiast car owner. I heard an interview with someone from the research team at West Virginia University and they said that they had tested the BMW diesels and they had no suspicions of cheating with the BMWs even though the power and efficiency were excellent. Is BMW just that much better at engineering these engines than VW?
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That's a huge power drop. I would guess that would be noticeable to the average non-enthusiast car owner. I heard an interview with someone from the research team at West Virginia University and they said that they had tested the BMW diesels and they had no suspicions of cheating with the BMWs even though the power and efficiency were excellent. Is BMW just that much better at engineering these engines than VW?
I believe I read that VW chose not to use systems like the one BMW uses because they already had too much invested in their own, inadequate system and they decided it would be too expensive to switch.
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Are all US VW's manufactured in Chattanooga? Have layoffs started yet? Sad for the employees.
Best,
Peter
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Are all US VW's manufactured in Chattanooga? Have layoffs started yet? Sad for the employees.
Best,
Peter
Only Passat, and, I think Tiguan as well.
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I believe I read that VW chose not to use systems like the one BMW uses because they already had too much invested in their own, inadequate system and they decided it would be too expensive to switch.
It was Mercedes' Blue Tec that they were going to license, and then did not.
They are starting to use urea injection on the models that didn't previously have it. The 2015 Golf now has it.
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It was Mercedes' Blue Tec that they were going to license, and then did not.
They are starting to use urea injection on the models that didn't previously have it. The 2015 Golf now has it.
Urea injection seems like the worst possible solution. Does this mean that the car needs a constant supply of urea? Solid or liquid? How often does it need to be replenished? Where is it sold? How much does it cost? What happens if the driver decides not to supply it? How is its use enforced?
Well, I got this off the web site https://www.cars.com/articles/2013/10/how-much-does-refilling-the-volkswagen-passat-tdis-urea-cost/. I have no idea if it's accurate, but it sure sounds like a kludge.
"How much does refilling the Volkswagen Passat TDI's urea cost?"
Anonymous
Urea is a diesel exhaust fluid that is sprayed into the exhaust stream to reduce emissions on some diesel models and must be replenished periodically.
It costs nothing for the first three years or 36,000 miles you own a Passat TDI because the diesel exhaust fluid is included in Volkswagen's free maintenance program. Volkswagen says the urea tank should be refilled every 10,000 miles, making the first three on the house. How often a diesel vehicle needs urea can vary, so 10,000 miles is only a guide.
After the free maintenance ends, it depends on where you go for service, what they charge and how much you need. You don't have to go to a Volkswagen dealer because any repair shop should have urea on hand or be able to get it. We've seen reports from owners that they've spent as little as $10 to have the urea tank topped off (apparently with a gallon or so of the fluid) to more than $50.
The tank on the Passat holds five gallons, and a warning light that urea needs to be added should come on long before the tank runs dry. If you let it go until the tank is empty, the car won't start in order to comply with emissions regulations.
You also can purchase urea at a parts store and do it yourself. Prices ranged from $4.39 to $7.50 for a gallon and $11 to $15 for 2.5 gallons at two online parts websites we checked. Dealerships and repair shops will likely charge more. If you decide to do it yourself, handle with care. The urea fluid can damage paint finishes.
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Urea injection seems like the worst possible solution. Does this mean that the car needs a constant supply of urea? Solid or liquid? How often does it need to be replenished? Where is it sold? How much does it cost? What happens if the driver decides not to supply it? How is its use enforced?
It is literally what every other manufacturer uses.
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It is literally what every other manufacturer uses.
OK, thanks, I learned something. I'm a clueless Prius driver.
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Urea injection seems like the worst possible solution.
In their case is the only one.
There are two existing tecnologies to clean diesels' emissions.
The SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction), the one with the urea injection.
The LNT (Lean NOx trap).
The LNT tecnology doesn't requires urea. It absorbs the NOX, and periodically (filter regeneration) transforms it in water and nitrogen using the same diesel fuel as a reactant.
But it requires an already very clean diesel engine to begin with, and is more complex to add to an existing vehicle (new ducts for fuel, new software to decide when to regenerate the filter, elimination of the existing catalyzer...).
The SCR is much easier and cheaper to add to an already built car.
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Jetta's, Golfs (except GTI), and Beetles are built in Puebla, Mexico.
Not true for Canada. Our 2011 5dr Golf TDI was made in Germany which is the reason why we bought the hatchback rather than the wagon version.
Cheers,
M
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It is literally what every other manufacturer uses.
You can get DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) at any major truck stop right at the diesel fuel Island. Around here it runs about $2.50 a gallon.
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All TDIs may be produced in Germany. It's only the generic run-of-the-mill stuff that's made in Mexico.
My 06 TDI was made in Mexico, but the engine/transmission were from Germany...
My understanding was the sedans for North America were Tennessee or Mexico, and some of the smaller hatchbacks Germany...
From what I've heard the quality is similar for all factories, as they use the same robotic equipment/build process. *shrug*.
The Mexico, US, and German built 09+ TDi four cylinders all have the TDI cheat though ;).
I passed by the factory a couple times in Wolfsburg while were were in Germany a few weeks ago. Small world.
-Joe
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Well VW have to 'fess up today as to how they're planning to fix the mess they created.
I finally heard an acknowledgement that whilst they definitely are in breech of the US regulations they might not be for Euro 5 which is what my EA189 engine is supposed to comply with
It might be a simple as removing the code from my car but nothing else as its not need for compliance
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When you don�t add Urea fluid and the tank is empty the engine will not run.
One of my best friends in my flying club is head of department at VW Diesel engine pre-development. Well, he was, for some years now he made the new small petrol engines. On monday it was his turn to be questioned. I am really interested how this went...
Anyway, he is a good guy, and I know he was (and is) full of anger about managers and businessmen. I begin to realise why this is so.
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The recall is to begin in January.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/07/us-volkswagen-emissions-mueller-idUSKCN0S02XH20151007 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/07/us-volkswagen-emissions-mueller-idUSKCN0S02XH20151007)
There is also going to be a going to be major layoffs:
"He said VW would have to become smaller and less centralized, "
I'm glad I don't work for VW. I do, however work in the "Transportation Solutions" division of the company I work for. VW is a HUGE customer for our European arm. This will likely have some effect on us. :sad:
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The recall is to begin in January.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/07/us-volkswagen-emissions-mueller-idUSKCN0S02XH20151007 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/07/us-volkswagen-emissions-mueller-idUSKCN0S02XH20151007)
There is also going to be a going to be major layoffs:
"He said VW would have to become smaller and less centralized, "
I'm glad I don't work for VW. I do, however work in the "Transportation Solutions" division of the company I work for. VW is a HUGE customer for our European arm. This will likely have some effect on us. :sad:
Sorry to hear this. Collateral damage to related industries/businesses will be difficult as #1 automaker "resizes". Interesting situation that it's contract season as well.
Best,
Peter
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From the EPA website, the answer to this question is below: "Will I be required to have my vehicle repaired once it is recalled?"
"That depends. Some states require proof that emissions recalls have been performed prior to issuing the vehicle registration. Even in states that do not have this requirement, it is important to have emissions recalls performed because without the repairs, your vehicle may be emitting harmful pollutants in excess of the federal emission standards. You are not responsible for repair costs related to an emissions recall."
NC does not require proof of emissions recalls being performed for yearly inspections. The wife's car is an '09 Jetta TDI and we both very much like the way the car runs. It's been a good one and gets 45.2 mpg with her driving it. I'm going to take it to the VW dealer in Winston-Salem next week for a coolant flush. It's a troublesome procedure on that car as there's frequently air trapped in the system after. VW apparently uses a vacuum purging tool for it. I don't want to fool with it. I'm going to put some aviation shear wire through two holes on each side of the diagnostic connector to make sure they don't try to load new software. And explain to them in no uncertain terms that it's_only_there for the coolant flush. After Jan. 1, '16 when the recalls start, I would imagine any VW dealer would be required by the company to do the recall on any diesel brought in for service.
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From the EPA website, the answer to this question is below: "Will I be required to have my vehicle repaired once it is recalled?"
"That depends. Some states require proof that emissions recalls have been performed prior to issuing the vehicle registration. Even in states that do not have this requirement, it is important to have emissions recalls performed because without the repairs, your vehicle may be emitting harmful pollutants in excess of the federal emission standards. You are not responsible for repair costs related to an emissions recall."
NC does not require proof of emissions recalls being performed for yearly inspections. The wife's car is an '09 Jetta TDI and we both very much like the way the car runs. It's been a good one and gets 45.2 mpg with her driving it. I'm going to take it to the VW dealer in Winston-Salem next week for a coolant flush. It's a troublesome procedure on that car as there's frequently air trapped in the system after. VW apparently uses a vacuum purging tool for it. I don't want to fool with it. I'm going to put some aviation shear wire through two holes on each side of the diagnostic connector to make sure they don't try to load new software. And explain to them in no uncertain terms that it's_only_there for the coolant flush. After Jan. 1, '16 when the recalls start, I would imagine any VW dealer would be required by the company to do the recall on any diesel brought in for service.
You should be OK since the details of the recall have not yet been released. I wouldn't bother tampering with the OBD port. If there were an active recall they would just do it. You don't have the option to opt out and your authorization isn't required on any recall related repairs.
There was a recall a while ago about the particulate filter, which in retrospect looks like an attempt to curtail the shitstorm that just happened. I think they increased the timing of the fuel dumps to the filter, but sounds like it didn't correct the issue. I unknowingly had it done and haven't noticed any impact on performance or fuel economy. They also increased the warranty coverage on the particulate filter as well, as they seemingly have a finite lifespan directly related to how frequently it is purged.
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You should be OK since the details of the recall have not yet been released. I wouldn't bother tampering with the OBD port. If there were an active recall they would just do it. You don't have the option to opt out and your authorization isn't required on any recall related repairs.
There was a recall a while ago about the particulate filter, which in retrospect looks like an attempt to curtail the shitstorm that just happened. I think they increased the timing of the fuel dumps to the filter, but sounds like it didn't correct the issue. I unknowingly had it done and haven't noticed any impact on performance or fuel economy. They also increased the warranty coverage on the particulate filter as well, as they seemingly have a finite lifespan directly related to how frequently it is purged.
I have nothing but good to say about this dealer in Winston-Salem. I was getting a code for the exhaust backpressure valve, and had the letter I'd received from VW on that component for the dealer. Turns out the particulate filter housing was cracked and losing pressure during egr flow. They took 3 days to replace it and gave me a new loaner Jetta to drive. Didn't charge me a dime but it was an emissions component. My DPF regen. cycles are no more frequent after that work, so maybe they didn't they didn't do the recall you mentioned when it was there. Anyhow, if they insist on any software updates when I take it in, I'll just come on back home. Do the flush myself. 6 yrs. old and overdue for it.
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I'm just guessing, but I think the states will be altering their test requirements to take this cheat into account. In other words, they might require VW's (and possibly other diesels) to be presented for special EPA screening.
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I'm hoping you're not right, Rodekyll.
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In his testimony before Congress yesterday, VW USA head Michael Horn made a few interesting statements beyond the mandatory mea culpas...
"Horn said the company does not yet have an approved recall plan for cars that have the defeat device, and that any fix for customers could take "one or two years" to carry out. Each of the nearly half million cars will require five hours to 10 hours of work, a potentially significant burden on dealers." (Thomson Reuters, see http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volkswagen-s-u-s-ceo-michael-horn-says-there-s-no-quick-emissions-fix-1.3262100)
One or two years? Five to ten hours of work per car? What once looked like removal of software to re-enable the proper operation of existing equipment now looks like it was the other way around. The real situation appears to be that the software was designed to make a fully NON-compliant engine temporarily act like a compliant one. That means that 500,000 US cars x 10 hours x $75/hr (paid to dealers) = $375 million in labor alone for the recall. Add in major mechanical changes, fines from the feds and some states, lawsuits of various flavors, and it gets real exciting.
Also, there were some thoughts that the diesels may have met less stringent Euro standards even if they were affected by this - that seems less likely if the problem was a lack of equipment altogether...
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In his testimony before Congress yesterday, VW USA head Michael Horn made a few interesting statements beyond the mandatory mea culpas...
"Horn said the company does not yet have an approved recall plan for cars that have the defeat device, and that any fix for customers could take "one or two years" to carry out. Each of the nearly half million cars will require five hours to 10 hours of work, a potentially significant burden on dealers." (Thomson Reuters, see http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volkswagen-s-u-s-ceo-michael-horn-says-there-s-no-quick-emissions-fix-1.3262100)
One or two years? Five to ten hours of work per car? What once looked like removal of software to re-enable the proper operation of existing equipment now looks like it was the other way around. The real situation appears to be that the software was designed to make a fully NON-compliant engine temporarily act like a compliant one. That means that 500,000 US cars x 10 hours x $75/hr (paid to dealers) = $375 million in labor alone for the recall. Add in major mechanical changes, fines from the feds and some states, lawsuits of various flavors, and it gets real exciting.
Also, there were some thoughts that the diesels may have met less stringent Euro standards even if they were affected by this - that seems less likely if the problem was a lack of equipment altogether...
The actual recall costs will likely be a fraction of the total cost. VW already put aside $7 billion and who knows whether that will cover it all. Just the lost sales while not selling the effected vehicles is pretty staggering. Law suits, fines, cost of layoffs and plant closures, and on and on.
I'm wondering if they will be able to come up with a fix that doesn't negatively impact mileage and/or performance. You would think if they could, they would have done it sometime in the 7+ years they've been cheating.
I don't think VW is going to collapse but I think they're going to be a lot smaller for the next decade or more.
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Someone(s) risked a huge company's reputation, the livelihood of many employees, the financial well being of shareholders, the perception of a people in the eyes of some and the continued freedom of some for nothing but greed and arrogance.
They should the thankful it wasn't in China of Japan, executions and suicides would be forthcoming.
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And Jay has received the first of his notices on the matter:
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/12118612_10205259689680270_4632719501643493328_n.jpg?oh=6932992132eaa244f5e7e501cdc39919&oe=5687F67B)
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The EPA sold customers down the river. They should have declared the affected vehicles illegal to operate and then make VW responsible to put the owners in new vehicles or comparable vehicles, then deal with the legalities of the violation.
With the declaration making them legal to drive that could limit liability to customers since VW can claim no harm to individuals.
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I still think the solution is for VW to hire Tom Brady. He'll get the proceedings delayed until all the cheater diesels are retired and then have the EPA apologize to VW and compensate them for the inconvenience.
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I still think the solution is for VW to hire Tom Brady. He'll get the proceedings delayed until all the cheater diesels are retired and then have the EPA apologize to VW and compensate them for the inconvenience.
Excellent analogy! :) Who would play the part of Gisele in this VW soap opera then?
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Waiting for the corporation to go to jail since they have 'rights'.
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They have 'rights'. What we're waiting for is to see if they have any 'responsibilities' for the 'exercise' of those 'rights'. Making them fix the problem instead of laming out with ONLY fines/jail/carbon credits will go a long way toward re-enforcing the responsibility part.
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In his testimony before Congress yesterday, VW USA head Michael Horn made a few interesting statements beyond the mandatory mea culpas...
"Horn said the company does not yet have an approved recall plan for cars that have the defeat device, and that any fix for customers could take "one or two years" to carry out. Each of the nearly half million cars will require five hours to 10 hours of work, a potentially significant burden on dealers." (Thomson Reuters, see http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volkswagen-s-u-s-ceo-michael-horn-says-there-s-no-quick-emissions-fix-1.3262100)
This was taken out of context. There are three different generations of diesel and each require a different repair to make compliant. The present cars only need a software fix. The cars the 10 hours was referring to are the early cars without the urea system or DPF filters in the exhaust. VW should just buy back those early cars and not have to engineer complete emission systems to retro fit them.
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This was taken out of context. There are three different generations of diesel and each require a different repair to make compliant. The present cars only need a software fix. The early cars the 10 hours was referring to are the early cars without the urea system or DPF filters in the exhaust. VW should just buy back those early cars and not have to engineer complete emission systems to retro fit them.
All of the cars in question are equipped with DPF. All TDI's importing since 2009 have them. There were no TDI's imported in 2007-2008. 2006 and earlier don't have DPF, and are not part of the recall.
If the cars could pass the test in "test mode", which is only software, I'd be surprised to see a solution other than forcing the cars to run in that mode all the time; unless, of course, drive-ability and fuel economy suffer so much that they know they'll get their asses sued off?
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Ten hours of labor is obviously not justa software fix...
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Ten hours of labor is obviously not justa software fix...
Yeah, I know that.
Both our cars will be out of warranty before this is over. They better warranty any problems caused to the retrofit for a long time.
I just so disgusted with the whole thing. Even thought it won't happen, I'd love if they just bought them back from us for pre-scandal market value, so I could just buy different cars. I want nothing to do with this whole fiasco. There is absolutely no upside for the current owners. Resale value is going to suffer big time. Fuel economy, performance, and maybe even longevity are all going to take a hit.
It makes with I had my old (now 15 year old) BMW back.
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Ten hours of labor is obviously not justa software fix...
Correct
The info I'm picking up over here from Skoda refers to "hardware" fixes - whatever that turns out to be!
Still my Octavia blew a boy racer in a Mini into the dust from the lights today. I decided I might as well enjoy it until they cut its throat :sad:
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Still my Octavia blew a boy racer in a Mini into the dust from the lights today. I decided I might as well enjoy it until they cut its throat :sad:
I'm thinking the boy racer in the Mini wasn't in a turbo model... :wink:
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Aren't the TDIs made in Tennessee?
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I'm thinking the boy racer in the Mini wasn't in a turbo model... :wink:
Of course he was ...... or at least I hope he was or you have just burst my bubble :cry:
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Aren't the TDIs made in Tennessee?
My 2012 TDI Jetta Sport Wagon was made in Mexico
My 2013 TDI Golf was made in Germany
The Passat, starting with the current larger car (2012?) is made in Tennessee.
IIRC, Tiguans for the North American market might also be made there.
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Of course he was ...... or at least I hope he was or you have just burst my bubble :cry:
How about you and I just pretend he was, I don't wanna really hurt your bubble. :kiss: :wink:
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Does anyone on this board really feel that the world would be a better place if we drive VW out of business with mega fines and law suits? I'm not saying that the company did no wrong and should not be punished but I feel some perspective is being lost in a feeding frenzy. Yes owners should be made as whole as possible. Yes dealers issues should be mitigated. Yes those at VW corporate who are responsible should be fired and legally dealt with. Yes civil fines should send a message but not destroy the company. No to class action law suits that only make lawyers rich. I mean with the damage done to John Q public by big tobacco,the 2008 fiscal melt down,asbestos, general motors ignition switches and well you name it,this is just a small blip on the cosmic radar. I'm just saying. The destruction of VW would be a major net negative.
:bike-037:
Gian4
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http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/vw-compensate-owners-diesel-cars-loss-34349287 (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/vw-compensate-owners-diesel-cars-loss-34349287)
Volkswagen could compensate owners of diesel-powered cars that emit high levels of pollutants, possibly by paying them for the lost value of their vehicles, the company's top U.S. executive said.
Speaking to lawmakers investigating the emissions cheating, U.S. CEO Michael Horn also said fixing most of the 500,000 affected cars in the U.S. could take one to two years, possibly more. The fix, he said, would not hurt fuel mileage, but it could hinder the cars' performance, knocking one or two miles-per-hour off the top speed.
"There might be a slight impact on performance," Horn said Thursday to a subcommittee of the House Energy and Commerce Committee.
Two MPH off the top speed? I doubt anyone that owns a TDI cares about that, but, what about acceleration? What about the ability to get into traffic on the highway without getting rear ended, or pass that slow vehicle in the uphill passing zone (as opposed to BEING the slow vehicle up the hill)? That's what really matters to drivers.
Horn told the committee that VW hasn't calculated how much value the scandal has cost owners of the affected cars. But earlier this week Kelley Blue Book said the value of VWs with 2-liter diesel engines had fallen 13 percent since mid-September. Used car values often drop in the fall, but the VW diesel drop was unusually large.
......
I would guess it is more like 20 percent, which was the premium a used TDI would go for over a gasser. That premium is not only gone, but, probably a negative now.
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Horn said software changes alone will work to fix newer models, but 430,000 cars dating to 2009 will need mechanical repairs that are still being developed. Horn said engineers are working on either a larger catalytic converter that would treat nitrogen oxide, or a system that injects a chemical called urea into the exhaust.
Well, there goes any chance of reversing the changes by flashing the old software.
The new models referred too that would get only software changes, are the 2015 and newer Golfs and other models with urea injection (Passat back to 2013).
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Two MPH off the top speed? I doubt anyone that owns a TDI cares about that, but, what about acceleration? What about the ability to get into traffic on the highway without getting rear ended, or pass that slow vehicle in the uphill passing zone (as opposed to BEING the slow vehicle up the hill)? That's what really matters to drivers.
You're exactly right. Nobody in the US cares about the top speed, but these things are already pretty slow. I really doubt top speed is the only compromise. If the fix reduces HP or Torque and makes them even slower they'll be even less appealing than they have already become. ~9 seconds to 60 is pretty slow by modern car standards. There isn't much room to sacrifice performance and have the car still be desirable to people who enjoy driving. Resale on these cars is going to be terrible for quite a while I believe.
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All of the cars in question are equipped with DPF. All TDI's importing since 2009 have them. There were no TDI's imported in 2007-2008. 2006 and earlier don't have DPF, and are not part of the recall.
If the cars could pass the test in "test mode", which is only software, I'd be surprised to see a solution other than forcing the cars to run in that mode all the time; unless, of course, drive-ability and fuel economy suffer so much that they know they'll get their asses sued off?
I think that the software would make the drive-ability and the fuel economy to suffer where they would get their asses sued. And some have speculated that the "soot trap" would explode in about 10k miles.
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I'm sure the effect is being understated when they claim 1-2 mph off top speed.
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Does anyone on this board really feel that the world would be a better place if we drive VW out of business with mega fines and law suits? I'm not saying that the company did no wrong and should not be punished but I feel some perspective is being lost in a feeding frenzy. Yes owners should be made as whole as possible. Yes dealers issues should be mitigated. Yes those at VW corporate who are responsible should be fired and legally dealt with. Yes civil fines should send a message but not destroy the company. No to class action law suits that only make lawyers rich. I mean with the damage done to John Q public by big tobacco,the 2008 fiscal melt down,asbestos, general motors ignition switches and well you name it,this is just a small blip on the cosmic radar. I'm just saying. The destruction of VW would be a major net negative.
:bike-037:
Gian4
Yes the glee some have shown about how much will be screwed out of VW over this is getting a bit tasteless, destroying VW is not going to contribute to the greater good of humanity, proffiting Lawers at the expense of Engineers and Fabricators is not a good thing.
�Whoever makes two ears of corn, or two blades of grass to grow where only one grew before, deserves better of mankind, and does more essential service to his country than the whole race of politicians put together�
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I'm sure the effect is being understated when they claim 1-2 mph off top speed.
1-2mph off a 130mph top speed would equate to a tiny power loss, I'm possitive someone on here can explain the aerodynamic stuff.
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Does anyone on this board really feel that the world would be a better place if we drive VW out of business with mega fines and law suits? I'm not saying that the company did no wrong and should not be punished but I feel some perspective is being lost in a feeding frenzy. Yes owners should be made as whole as possible. Yes dealers issues should be mitigated. Yes those at VW corporate who are responsible should be fired and legally dealt with. Yes civil fines should send a message but not destroy the company. No to class action law suits that only make lawyers rich. I mean with the damage done to John Q public by big tobacco,the 2008 fiscal melt down,asbestos, general motors ignition switches and well you name it,this is just a small blip on the cosmic radar. I'm just saying. The destruction of VW would be a major net negative.
:bike-037:
Gian4
If VW goes down ( I don't think it will) it will most likely be due as much to the free market as it will be governments. Yes. There will be big $$$$ fines but the U.S. is not going to give them anywhere near the max amount and I certainly don't expect the EU to punish them in a crippling manner. All the other costs for recalls, etc, is their own doing unless of course you think they should get some kind of exemption from environmental regulations.
Long term, they will have a huge loss of car sales. The diesel car was a huge part of their business. It's going to be completely shut down for some period of time and when they do get things fixed they are going to have to regain the trust of consumers and that isn't going to happen overnight. VW is a huge company with huge overhead. Taking away a big chunk of their sales is going to hurt real bad and that is a problem they made for themselves. I think they'll get through it but it wouldn't surprise me to see them drop out of the top 3 automakers for a while.
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Does anyone on this board really feel that the world would be a better place if we drive VW out of business with mega fines and law suits? I'm not saying that the company did no wrong and should not be punished but I feel some perspective is being lost in a feeding frenzy. Yes owners should be made as whole as possible. Yes dealers issues should be mitigated. Yes those at VW corporate who are responsible should be fired and legally dealt with. Yes civil fines should send a message but not destroy the company. No to class action law suits that only make lawyers rich. I mean with the damage done to John Q public by big tobacco,the 2008 fiscal melt down,asbestos, general motors ignition switches and well you name it,this is just a small blip on the cosmic radar. I'm just saying. The destruction of VW would be a major net negative.
:bike-037:
Gian4
I think you miss the point of the cheating. It's not the fake numbers f***ing up resale values that are the problem. The crime is the corporate willingness to poison the planet for a cash profit. How much material harm have they done to how many people with the excess pollution? This is a crime against humanity. If the punishment is not survivable, maybe others will take notice.
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As for "glee", I'm not sure I'm reading that into the posts. But if I am, maybe it is combination of things.
1. Cheating is cheating - VW sold more cars and made more money because of an unfair advantage (in price point, mpg/efficiency etc.) than their competitors. In doing so the arguably harmed ALL OF US to some degree and their customers the most. I think I can understand someone who is happy that they are not going to get away with it.
2. Is the world better without VW - doubtful. But the world is likely better with executives who are scared to cheat their customers or the governments that allow their products to be sold in their countries. And whatever happens the end result SHOULD discourage such behavior in the future or again, we all lose.
3. Class Action Suits - really do MOSTLY benefit the lawyers, though see point #2 and if they are a tool that helps encourage proper corporate behavior (part of the stick instead of the carrot) then I can at least understand them, even if I have no love for them.
1-2mph off a 130mph top speed would equate to a tiny power loss, I'm possitive someone on here can explain the aerodynamic stuff.
I'm saying that they are probably exaggerating in a positive light, or underplaying the effect.
Yes, maybe it is only 2 mph on the top end, but maybe they're not telling you about another 3 seconds 0-60 or something like that.
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If the difference was only 1-2 miles off of top speed, why did they cheat to begin with?
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If the difference was only 1-2 miles off of top speed, why did they cheat to begin with?
Top speed is not an EPA tested parameter.
Basically, the emissions controls systems will require higher maintenance if they are operating as required by EPA, and the engine is turned up.
To get the maintenance issues into acceptable parameters while meeting EPA, they have to turn the engine down.
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A 1-2 mph at 130mph is a lot of power to lose if that is where the engine makes max power. From my understanding, the power to gain additional mph goes up exponentially with speed.
That 1-2 mph off a 130 mph top end isn't just a horsepower or two.
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A 1-2 mph at 130mph is a lot of power to lose if that is where the engine makes max power. From my understanding, the power to gain additional mph goes up exponentially with speed.
That 1-2 mph off a 130 mph top end isn't just a horsepower or two.
I got that the wrong way round didn't I......
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Power increases at the Cube of speed, or something like that...
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A 1-2 mph at 130mph is a lot of power to lose if that is where the engine makes max power. From my understanding, the power to gain additional mph goes up exponentially with speed.
That 1-2 mph off a 130 mph top end isn't just a horsepower or two.
Even more to my point. That's approaching 2x the legal limit in many places. Down in the real-world numbers it doesn't matter.
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1-2mph off a 130mph top speed would equate to a tiny power loss, I'm possitive someone on here can explain the aerodynamic stuff.
Correct. As Kev M. said, they're understating the effect on performance.
When 11 million owners' cars loose substantial performance and economy, they're going to have a real shit storm on their hands.
It will take a very long time for them to recover from this. I'm a fairing recent VW owner. My wife and I liked the first one enough to buy a second one. They've lost us forever. I'm pretty loyal to products that I like too. I owned and drove BMWs for 18 years, but, switched to VW for the fuel economy of TDI (ironically, the BMW's four cylinder diesel 3 series has announced for the US within a year), and also because, like their bikes, BMW cars were going too far up market for me.
It is pretty much guaranteed that we'll never buy another VW product, ever.
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The car industry is a cut-throat industry.
Some of those 11 million sales would have gone to other manufacturers, who'd badly need that business.
Let's see if those manufacturers rise hell and make as much trouble for VW as possible, or prefer to try to calm things down......
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Even more to my point. That's approaching 2x the legal limit in many places. Down in the real-world numbers it doesn't matter.
The point was that since the power loss would need to be significant to provide a lower top speed the real word speeds would see the power reduction in more significance.
Losing a couple miles per hour on top end doesn't mean much since the speed loss is small. The power loss though, doesn't get smaller speed goes down, it has a greater effect because there is far less power available at the lower speeds. Say you lose 10 HP at the top speed.
If you are putting your foot into it at regular driving speeds because you want to pass, you'll miss that 10 HP. Engine speeds at low driving speeds can be the same as at high road speeds, it called gears. And engine running at 5000 rpms with a road speed of 45 mph produces the same power running at 5000 rpm but in an higher gear at 125mph.
To make it simple, the guy driving at 45 mph who needs to merge and runs the engine into the best part of the power band is going to really notice the slower 45-65 acceleration rate compared to the guy running at 128 and trying to make 130.
In real world numbers it does matter.
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Poison the planet......If I hear that phrase one more time I'll throw up. Crime against humanity???? Hitler,Pol Pot,Stalin yes, but VW come on. Yes they were greedy and yes they should be punished and will be. My comment about perspective I see was some how lost to some in translation. Every time we breath or fart (according to the EPA) we "poison" the planet and "commit crimes against humanity".
Gian4
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Poison the planet......If I hear that phrase one more time I'll throw up. Crime against humanity???? Hitler,Pol Pot,Stalin yes, but VW come on. Yes they were greedy and yes they should be punished and will be. My comment about perspective I see was some how lost to some in translation. Every time we breath or fart (according to the EPA) we "poison" the planet and "commit crimes against humanity".
Gian4
You're comparing a single fart to the deliberate excessive pollution of 11 million vehicles based purely on greed?
I have no words for you. :cry:
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The point was that since the power loss would need to be significant to provide a lower top speed the real word speeds would see the power reduction in more significance.
Losing a couple miles per hour on top end doesn't mean much since the speed loss is small. The power loss though, doesn't get smaller speed goes down, it has a greater effect because there is far less power available at the lower speeds. Say you lose 10 HP at the top speed.
If you are putting your foot into it at regular driving speeds because you want to pass, you'll miss that 10 HP. Engine speeds at low driving speeds can be the same as at high road speeds, it called gears. And engine running at 5000 rpms with a road speed of 45 mph produces the same power running at 5000 rpm but in an higher gear at 125mph.
To make it simple, the guy driving at 45 mph who needs to merge and runs the engine into the best part of the power band is going to really notice the slower 45-65 acceleration rate compared to the guy running at 128 and trying to make 130.
In real world numbers it does matter.
. . . you're saying (in example) that the reduction is 10hp output reduction at any rpm -- NOT 10% less hp (or some RATE v absolute value) at any rpm?
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This may be a stretch on my part but I don't think I'm the only one farting in this world. :cheesy:
Gian4
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This may be a stretch on my part but I don't think I'm the only one farting in this world. :cheesy:
Gian4
No, that part isn't the stretch. :rolleyes:
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. . . you're saying (in example) that the reduction is 10hp output reduction at any rpm -- NOT 10% less hp (or some RATE v absolute value) at any rpm?
The 10% was just an example, I don't know the reduction will actually be.
An engine produces the same power at 5000 rpms regardless of what the speed of the car is. 5000 at 30 mph or 5000 at 130, the power is the same.
Depending on how the transmission is configured, when the trans shifts and all that, the VW diesel could easily be operating at or near max output for 45-65 merges or accelerations around town. The diesel has to operate near max to compete with the gas engines on those terms because gas engined cars tend to accelerate faster than the diesel so operating the diesel closer to max power more of the time evens the playing field. A reduction in power at the 130 mph speeds where the engine is producing max power means less power at lower speeds where the engine is at max power.
The reduction probably isn't a static 10% for example but with a diesel, a 10% drop at max means more than a 10% drop at max for a gas engine because the diesels tend torun near max power more often in cars like the VW, that is how they tout it and get it to perform the way people like it.
Since the diesel uses less fuel, typically, even when run near max power than the gas engines, running them like that to give buyers acceleration they want works out.
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I understand that we're using numbers so's we have something to talk about. :smiley:
But you've talked about 10% and 10hp, and it's got me confused.
But confusion aside -- if it takes more power to run at 5krpm/130mph v 5krpm/70mph, and if it's a cubed thing, down in the real world I'm still not seeing the significance, unless you're comparing the reduction against max potential rather than what's needed to get the job done. In that respect I think the 10% is less of a factor at real-world values.
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While not the same as VW, the list gets bigger.
"Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi have joined the growing list of manufacturers whose diesel cars are known to emit significantly more pollution on the road than in regulatory tests, according to data obtained by the Guardian.
Wide range of cars emit more pollution in realistic driving tests, data shows
Read more
In more realistic on-road tests, some Honda models emitted six times the regulatory limit of NOx pollution while some unnamed 4x4 models had 20 times the NOx limit coming out of their exhaust pipes.
“The issue is a systemic one” across the industry, said Nick Molden, whose company Emissions Analytics tested the cars. The Guardian revealed last week that diesel cars from Renault, Nissan, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat, Volvo and Jeep all pumped out significantly more NOx in more realistic driving conditions. Nix pollution is at illegal levels in many parts of the UK and is believed to have caused many thousands of premature deaths and billions of pounds in health costs."
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row?CMP=fb_gu
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Well, how often do they get the EPA rated mileage?
This may be grand news for VW.
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This may be grand news for VW.
Really not.
The key words here are "more realistic".
That really means "pushing on the accelerator".
To pass the omologation test, the cars are required to meet the prescribed emission figures in the driving conditions (so much RPM for so much time) established for the omologation test. No matter how much unrealistic they are.
VW had gone far beyond that, equipping its cars with a software that recognized when the car was on a test bench. That way the car had more emission on the road (or simply on a test bench that moves all four wheels of the car) even in the "unrealistic" driving conditions established for the omologation test.
To rule over the VW case is matter for the courts.
To estabilish more "realistic" driving conditions for the future homolgation tests is matter for the legislators.
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Bet their fine is under $1B.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhvI2oeBPtY&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhvI2oeBPtY&feature=youtu.be)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhvI2oeBPtY&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhvI2oeBPtY&feature=youtu.be)
YUP, just as I thought. Doesn't mean much at top end, but means something in the more used midrange.
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Wonder if the EPA has ever tested most HDs, or at least the way most are set up AFTER the sale ? Yeah , VW is awful , horrible , the most evil entity ever to come out of Europe , but we seem to have lost sight of the fact that this type of of behavior is somehow acceptable at an individual level . I still say we wait and see what happens before summarily executing VW .
Dusty
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Wonder if the EPA has ever tested most HDs, or at least the way most are set up AFTER the sale ? Yeah , VW is awful , horrible , the most evil entity ever to come out of Europe , but we seem to have lost sight of the fact that this type of of behavior is somehow acceptable at an individual level . I still say we wait and see what happens before summarily executing VW .
Dusty
I've never argued it was acceptable on an individual basis.
But there is a very different impact on order of magnitude from an individual to 11M vehicles in one fell swoop.
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I've never argued it was acceptable on an individual basis.
But there is a very different impact on order of magnitude from an individual to 11M vehicles in one fell swoop.
True , but how many cars and motorcycles have had their emission systems removed or modified in the quest for a couple of HP or simply because the owners want to thumb their nose at authority or the environment ?
Dusty
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True , but how many cars and motorcycles have had their emission systems removed or modified in the quest for a couple of HP or simply because the owners want to thumb their nose at authority or the environment ?
Dusty
I'm gonna eager a guess at fewer than 11,000,000 in just the past 5-6 years. :kiss:
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I got a kick out of this.
I am Honda Accord owner and check on a Honda forum. This was an interesting post:
What a contrast... Honda vs VW
My wife and I have owned Honda products continuously since 1979. Often two in the garage at once. She now has a '15 Accord. Three years ago I was lured to VW because I have lusted for a diesel, and the accompanying 40+ MPG.
On this site, folks write about their Hondas in terms of floor mats, oil break-in, mileage between models, aftermarket parts, etc. and the occasional maintenance issue, usually minor in scope.
Meanwhile on the VW TDi site you hear about turbine icing and frequent turbine failure, high pressure fuel pump failure (a $7,000 fix out of warranty) panoramic sun roof binding ($2,000'to fix). An aluminum oil pan prone to puncture from road debris, a soot collection device that requires replacing at some point north of 100k miles, assuming it doesn't split apart first ($2,700). And on and on. Almost forgot about the oil and duel clutch transmission service every 40k miles ($650).
And now, the EPA scandal that threatens to bring down VW and neuter my Sportwagens legendary performance and mileage thanks to pending recall "fixes".
I've been lucky to have no problems with my VW so far, but I'm on borrowed time. Love driving the VW, but now hoping the company (VW) somehow makes us whole resale value wise. Then it's off to the local Honda store for a '16 Pilot.
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I got a kick out of this.
I am Honda Accord owner and check on a Honda forum. This was an interesting post:
What a contrast... Honda vs VW
My wife and I have owned Honda products continuously since 1979. Often two in the garage at once. She now has a '15 Accord. Three years ago I was lured to VW because I have lusted for a diesel, and the accompanying 40+ MPG.
On this site, folks write about their Hondas in terms of floor mats, oil break-in, mileage between models, aftermarket parts, etc. and the occasional maintenance issue, usually minor in scope.
Meanwhile on the VW TDi site you hear about turbine icing and frequent turbine failure, high pressure fuel pump failure (a $7,000 fix out of warranty) panoramic sun roof binding ($2,000'to fix). An aluminum oil pan prone to puncture from road debris, a soot collection device that requires replacing at some point north of 100k miles, assuming it doesn't split apart first ($2,700). And on and on. Almost forgot about the oil and duel clutch transmission service every 40k miles ($650).
And now, the EPA scandal that threatens to bring down VW and neuter my Sportwagens legendary performance and mileage thanks to pending recall "fixes".
I've been lucky to have no problems with my VW so far, but I'm on borrowed time. Love driving the VW, but now hoping the company (VW) somehow makes us whole resale value wise. Then it's off to the local Honda store for a '16 Pilot.
I recall Honda being caught cheating on the mileage their odometers recorded. Interesting the lack of outrage even though the result of the "crime" was similar.
Best,
Peter
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I got a kick out of this.
I am Honda Accord owner and check on a Honda forum. This was an interesting post:
What a contrast... Honda vs VW
My wife and I have owned Honda products continuously since 1979. Often two in the garage at once. She now has a '15 Accord. Three years ago I was lured to VW because I have lusted for a diesel, and the accompanying 40+ MPG.
<snip>
I've been lucky to have no problems with my VW so far, but I'm on borrowed time. Love driving the VW, but now hoping the company (VW) somehow makes us whole resale value wise. Then it's off to the local Honda store for a '16 Pilot.
I wonder what he's going to think about that 18/26 mpg on the Pilot?
And it's a good thing he's thinking 2016, cause up to 2015 it was 17/24.
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I wonder what he's going to think about that 18/26 mpg on the Pilot?
And it's a good thing he's thinking 2016, cause up to 2015 it was 17/24.
I'd think someone buying an SUV knows the fuel economy isn't the same as a Diesel VW. Their statement shows other concerns but buying an SUV for mileage wasn't one of them.
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The VW problem does seem to be bleeding over quite a bit though. It isn't something you'll generally read about or see/hear on TV, it is the shock and disgust of many in Germany and Germans everywhere. The feeling of a betrayal and being appauled that VW, a mark of excellence embedded in the country cheated to make a more money. It didn't need to do it.
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I'd think someone buying an SUV knows the fuel economy isn't the same as a Diesel VW. Their statement shows other concerns but buying an SUV for mileage wasn't one of them.
Ya think? :grin:
Still, he was wooed by the diesel kool-aide, can't believe he's not going to have some sticker shock going to a vehicle with less than half the mpg.
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The point of that post when comparing the VW to Honda was the cost of ownership with all high dollar repairs. I had a buddy that bought Diesel Jetta in the mid 2000s and he found that $500+ failures happened and repeated with such regularity that he'd never own another. He's a tightwad and purchases Corollas now.
We've been up and down the high cost of maintaining German cars on this forum. Some think the driving experience is worth the trade off.
But the contrast to Honda is striking. On the Honda forums posts are irate over a rattle (disclosure: I took my new Honda back TWICE for rattles, the dealer gave me credit for three free oil changes for my trouble), the radio sound quality, interior dress up kits, road noise, pissing about 27 mpg in town gas mileage, changing the cabin filter, dealer charges for oil change & filters, whether you can skip a shift with a manual transmission, etc. Once in awhile someone will have a legitimate repair question, unfortunately, the forum is mostly clueless when that happens.
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Once in awhile someone will have a legitimate repair question, unfortunately, the forum is mostly clueless when that happens.
That's the way it was on the MINI forum. Buncha take it to the dealer people.. not that there's anything wrong with that.. but in general very few gearheads. At six years, when the legendary German engineering started to rear it's ugly head, it was gone out of my garage. Sensors started failing. All freaking day to change out a thermostat gasket? I hate working on cars, but I certainly wasn't going to get shook down by BMW.
Loved driving the car, though.
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Some cars, like bikes come with a near requirement that you wrench even if it shouldn't or doesn't need to be that way.
The jokes that you buy a BMW knowing that it gets sold just before the warranty runs out sum it up. While a comparable Lexus might be as good when people drive the BMW they can tell the difference and know the BMW just drives better. Then when buttons stop working, tabs break off and adjustments never get it right anymore the live fades and its time for a new one. Meanwhile the Lexus goes onto a new owner who drives it for another 150,000 miles with little more than oil and filter changes and maybe a timing belt.
Don't hear too many people say they buy VWs because of their reliability.
Here in the US though, we demand cars go 100,000 miles without too much hassle. But most of us really don't drive, we sit in the car and text, tweet have coffee klatches and turn the wheel and brake once in a while to avoid being killed. Those who really drive though, often pick something else and that is where BMW, VW and the other makers come in.
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That's the way it was on the MINI forum. Buncha take it to the dealer people.. not that there's anything wrong with that.. but in general very few gearheads. At six years, when the legendary German engineering started to rear it's ugly head, it was gone out of my garage. Sensors started failing. All freaking day to change out a thermostat gasket? I hate working on cars, but I certainly wasn't going to get shook down by BMW.
Loved driving the car, though.
I don't drink the Honda Kool-aide either. I've seen far too many of them broken as well.
That said, I do wonder if the difference in the forums can also be contributed to the differences in the buyers of a Honda vs. a VW.
I see it even in the difference between the people who post in the WK2 (Grand Cherokee) Jeep Sub-Forum and those who post in the JK/JKU (Wrangler) Sub-Forum. The former are mostly only talking about their MPG, SAT-NAV, Leather or Air Suspension, how to program a key fob and maybe an occasional oil change or tire thread, while the later is talking about lifts, bumpers, gearing changes, big tires, and once in a while mpg or maybe adding a factory NAV to something that didn't have it.
So how many on the Honda forum just don't post about problems and simply bring it to the dealer and fix it?
I'd be curious, but I don't really care, because I'm going to pick a VW over a Honda IF I THINK THE VW will be more fun anyway. Just like I've picked a Guzzi or a Ducati, or even a Harley over a Honda time and again.
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For some people, fixing, accessorizing or modifying a vehicle is fun or they accept it as part of owning a particular brand.
There are things in some brands or models people will accept that those same people would never tolerate in another. It's those other brands that fix those things and go onto dominate their markets while the others garner a loyal but smaller customer base.
Its a strange phenomenon where accepting certain problems is a sort of rite of passage into a select group. Like the oil weep drip on certain years of 3 series BMWs. They all do that is what you'll hear. They all do that and no one bothers to fix the problem? Yes, its the way it is and part of owning one and not doing to means you really aren't the quality of owner needed, at least according to forums which represent nearly next to no one.
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I don't drink the Honda Kool-aide either. I've seen far too many of them broken as well.
That said, I do wonder if the difference in the forums can also be contributed to the differences in the buyers of a Honda vs. a VW.
I see it even in the difference between the people who post in the WK2 (Grand Cherokee) Jeep Sub-Forum and those who post in the JK/JKU (Wrangler) Sub-Forum. The former are mostly only talking about their MPG, SAT-NAV, Leather or Air Suspension, how to program a key fob and maybe an occasional oil change or tire thread, while the later is talking about lifts, bumpers, gearing changes, big tires, and once in a while mpg or maybe adding a factory NAV to something that didn't have it.
So how many on the Honda forum just don't post about problems and simply bring it to the dealer and fix it?
I'd be curious, but I don't really care, because I'm going to pick a VW over a Honda IF I THINK THE VW will be more fun anyway. Just like I've picked a Guzzi or a Ducati, or even a Harley over a Honda time and again.
So how many on forum don't post problems? AS I SAID there's lots of complaining about rattles, stereo sound quality, gas mileage under 27 mpg, I might add driving in snow, wiper blades, head room, DOOR DINGS and BUMPER REPAIRS are big source of concern.
In fact, on p 1 there are 31 threads and other than the sticky for service bulletins, there's not a serious expensive repair issue listed. I haven't read the sticky in sometime, so I don't even know if there's much there.
the point I was making being familiar to the Honda forum is that the problems with the car are so rare and that no one has any experience to address it. There a very few repair trends reported. The folks on the forum generally know very little about mechanics and sometimes whine to the dealers about miniscule problems.
I've owned a VW as well as 3 Hondas and there is absolutely no comparison with reliability and costs & frequency of maintenance. I do like the VW driving experience but the Honda is pretty nice too. Honda is just about the only Asian car company that makes a manual transmission in a Sedan.
No need to drink the koolaid when you have your lyin' eyes.
Now I'd better knock wood that my new one will be a good one.
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the point I was making being familiar to the Honda forum is that the problems with the car are so rare and that no one has any experience to address it. There a very few repair trends reported. The folks on the forum generally know very little about mechanics and sometimes whine to the dealers about miniscule problems.
Honda fixes things reported that hint at being systemic. While nothing is perfect, it is rare to see problem continue year after year. Buyers won't stand for it and if you are going to sell a lot of stuff, it can't be problem plagued.
If Honda makes those 3 wheelers watch what happens. A few problem and then by the third year, you can buy one and just run it.
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My brother is the service manager for a Audi/VW/Porsche dealer. He is a fan of German cars, but he`s not under any illusion and his advice is once the warranties out, it`s time to ship the car out.
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A coworker just bought a new Jetta with the 1.8L turbo gas motor. It is EPA rated for 37 MPG highway. He got 40 MPG (calculated from fills) coming back from Barbers. Hmmm, wonder if VW cheated the emissions on that too :evil:
That motor wasn't available when we bought our TDI's. The only gas motor available was the 2.5L 5-cylinder non-turbo dog. It is rated 31 highway/21 city.
The current 1.8L at 37 MPG is about the same cost to fuel per mile as my 42 MPG TDI's are. If the 1.8L gas motor was an option when we bought, we'd have gotten that one, and perhaps not be in this mess.
Just for grins, I emailed our dealer to see what kind of trade-in we can get on our 2012 TDI wagon against a new one with the 1.8L turbo.
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Getting worse for VW, now involves their 6 cylinder engines as well including those put into Porsche's and Audi's. Before, it was only their 4 cly economy engines.
The gift that keeps giving.
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Getting worse for VW, now involves their 6 cylinder engines as well including those put into Porsche's and Audi's. Before, it was only their 4 cly economy engines.
The gift that keeps giving.
Who would buy a Porsche SUV with a diesel motor? For that matter, who would buy a Porsche that was really just a rebadged SUV from VW?
True Porsches have 2 seats, might have another couple suitable for torturing children, have an engine somewhere behind the driver, and (if you're a purist) put the same fine edge on technology that Ferraris do on brute force.
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They should provide you with a loaner while your car is in getting the fix.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/vw%20loaner_zpsy6rezooe.jpg)
:laugh:
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They should provide you with a loaner while your car is in getting the fix.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/vw%20loaner_zpsy6rezooe.jpg)
:laugh:
Was a variable pitch prop available as an option that year?
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As this still seems a hot topic:
Thought this was an interesting explanation:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WkpoL-aQbdI
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No need to drink the koolaid when you have your lyin' eyes.
Yeah, but whose eyes are doing the lyin?
You forget how long I've worked in the industry.
Hondas break just like everything else.
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Yeah, but whose eyes are doing the lyin?
You forget how long I've worked in the industry.
Hondas break just like everything else.
Back in 1982, a buddy of mine and I both just got our first really good paying jobs, and each of us decided to buy a new car that cost about $10,000 (CDN). He bought a Honda Civic (at the time considered a very reliable small car) and I bought a Fiat X1/9. Seven years later, we both ended up selling those cars. Mine had about 85,000 miles on it, his not many different, so we tallied up what our respective costs per mile had been. The resale value wasn't even all that different, though Fiat's withdrawal from the NA market did hurt me a bit.
Turned out the Fiat, for all its awful reputation, was the less expensive car :shocked: (It was the later 1500 fuel injected model, though).
Reputation and individual experience may be the same for some, but can only be taken as an indicator - not a promise.
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VW hit by another recall. Seems the damage isn't over yet. Now brake assist problems. Someone fell asleep at the wheel. Can't blame a small group of engineers this time.
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Hondas break just like everything else.
Yeah, my brother in law was eating up brake pads on his 07? Honda Accord like every 10,000 miles or something crazy like that and evidently there were a lot of other people having the same problem. I forgot what the repair was but Honda fixed it and then he moved on to another Honda.
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True , but how many cars and motorcycles have had their emission systems removed or modified in the quest for a couple of HP or simply because the owners want to thumb their nose at authority or the environment ?
Dusty
Truth. Anyone modifying a bike without measuring and considering the environmental impact of the mod is doing on an individual level what VW did on a corporate level. A key difference is that VW did it surreptitiously so that buyers did not know what they were signing up for. Big difference. But if you're all in an uproar about what VW did, don't whine if you move to a state (likely north of the Mason Dixon line) that gives a damn about air pollution and fines your smelly MG tailpipe for polluting a common resource (the atmosphere). Also, I wonder why Greenpeace or some other ballsy environmental outfit hasn't started a campaign to put sugar in the fuel tanks of all obviously polluting vehicles. One free flowing F250 with black particulates belching all over the place has to out as much pollution I would guess as about 100 of those criminally modified VWs. Not suggestin., just sayin'..
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Also, I wonder why Greenpeace or some other ballsy environmental outfit hasn't started a campaign to put sugar in the fuel tanks of all obviously polluting vehicles.
Probably because they may be ballsy, but they're not suicidal ..... :tongue:
Lannis
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Was a variable pitch prop available as an option that year?
Probably not very efficient with the prop on backwards.
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Probably because they may be ballsy, but they're not suicidal ..... :tongue:
Lannis
Looked into it a bit, could be that sugar in the gas doesn't do much harm anyway (except making the owner go wild with rage). http://www.snopes.com/autos/grace/sugar.asp
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What about Subaru's oil burning issues( I have a 12 forester which does)? I'm thinking it could lead to early failure to the cat. I wondered why the EPA hasen't gotten involved
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What about Subaru's oil burning issues( I have a 12 forester which does)? I'm thinking it could lead to early failure to the cat. I wondered why the EPA hasen't gotten involved
That's completely different.
1. The cars are making the proper emissions standards.
2. If they don't (because of a damaged cat) there is an emissions warranty (normally longer than the base warranty) to cover it.
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There is something very inconsistent in the stories so far. Claims that if the emissions were set properly then the cars would start getting worse mileage than they do now. I've got a 2014 TDI SE Passat and over 5000 miles since I bought it back in January, I am averaging 40 mpg...mostly highway, a little bit of city mixed in. I find it hard to believe how if this vehicle is polluting MORE than it should, meaning theoretically I am consuming MORE diesel, why my mileage would get WORSE instead of better. Something doesn't quite seem correct, unless it's not the consumption of diesel, but some other setting.
A few possible outcomes:
The extent of the "cheating" is not material and VW fixes whatever is tweaked
or
There is a recall or some $ incentive provided
or
Unidentified alternative scenario, not yet imagined.
Either way, the car drives smoothly, quietly, runs great, super roomy and delivers a "mildly boring" but convenient commute vehicle.
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There is a common misconception that the amount of pollution an engine emits is tied proportional to the amount of fuel it consumes.
Just because the VW diesel gets good fuel economy doesn't mean it pollutes less than one with less fuel economy.
In simple terms, take two wood burning stoves, one has a filter of sorts on the stove pipe, the other does not. Both burn the same amount of wood. Is one emitting fewer particulates or pollution into the air? No, it is just that one has a filter that captures some of the emissions and filters it. Is one emitting less particulates and pollution into the atmosphere? Yes, the one with the filter.
But make one stove burn its wood with less air and create more soot or something like that and then one does pollute more even though both are fed the same amount of wood.
What VW did in effect, using that simple analogy was bypass the filter or mess with the air in the burn chamber except when someone was looking.
Saying your VW isn't polluting more because it has great fuel economy fails to take in account that you aren't driving the car in test mode all the time so you have no reference with which to compare your observations. It makes the observation and the conclusions based on it rather invalid.
No, a wood stove isn't a diesel engine.
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Carbon hoofprints might be next..... eh? :boozing:
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/horse%20bike_zpsbdijfdm3.jpg)
High Ho, Silver Away!
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They all cheat. Like crash tests, the manufacturers all design cars to the government wankers' genius standards. And as long as you have a crash just like their test rig, your results will be similar.
Pro tip: if you die in a crash, you can't sue the rascals either way.
Thanks, EPA. Thanks IIHS.
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They all cheat. Like crash tests, the manufacturers all design cars to the government wankers' genius standards. And as long as you have a crash just like their test rig, your results will be similar.
Pro tip: if you die in a crash, you can't sue the rascals either way.
Thanks, EPA. Thanks IIHS.
But you're not suggesting that we haven't progressed dramatically in automotive safety standards or in reducing emissions?
Shyte, I've seen the difference in crash standards.
And if you've ridden a motorcycle I'm sure you've even smelled the difference in emissions.
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But you're not suggesting that we haven't progressed dramatically in automotive safety standards or in reducing emissions?
Shyte, I've seen the difference in crash standards.
And if you've ridden a motorcycle I'm sure you've even smelled the difference in emissions.
We've progressed so much, that I wonder whether a rigged TDi is still SO much cleaner than any vehicle that you can see its emissions, that we should start focusing really on the mega polluters, even at the individual vehicle/driver level. Vehicles with engine problems or modifications that make their emission clearly visible (black particles, blue smoke) should get pulled over, inspected, and impounded if bad enough.
Cars get impounded for having illegal drugs, it's a much more direct consequence to have the vehicle impounded because the vehicle itself is the problem. The first time that happens to a school bus will be the last time the school bus company lets one of their belching beauties that needs a new engine out on the road. Rolling coal? Pull over good buddy!
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And if you've ridden a motorcycle I'm sure you've even smelled the difference in emissions.
:1:
Why is it that often when I get behind a cruiser that is new enough to not smell like a 60's muscle car from behind, it still does?
Yeah, it's rhetorical question. Notice I didn't say Harley, as I'm sure that riders of other makes like to tune 'em rich too. I know that sport bike guys use power commanders, but, I've never smelled ultra-rich exhaust behind any bike other than a cruiser, or an actual vintage bike. Interestingly enough, when I've ridden with other airheads, even older ones (/5) I don't smell it either.
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Rolling coal? Pull over good buddy!
:1: :1: :1:
When the gov't did the cash for clunkers, they took the wrong cars off the road. Those that could afford a new car were not driving the old beater that was burning oil and belching blue smoke. In fact, the program destroyed cars that would've been a significant upgrade for those that were, and likely still are driving a blue-smoke-belching POS.
The program should've been designed to promote a more natural, but sped up progression of the used car market.
The trade ins on the new ones should've been sold with incentives to the POS drivers. So long as the vehicle you're buying pollutes less than the one you are trading, you get the incentive. The worst POS's get junked.
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:1:
Why is it that often when I get behind a cruiser that is new enough to not smell like a 60's muscle car from behind, it still does?
Yeah, it's rhetorical question. Notice I didn't say Harley, as I'm sure that riders of other makes like to tune 'em rich too. I know that sport bike guys use power commanders, but, I've never smelled ultra-rich exhaust behind any bike other than a cruiser, or an actual vintage bike. Interestingly enough, when I've ridden with other airheads, even older ones (/5) I don't smell it either.
What I hate is riding behind several new or new-ish cars going up a long hill. The hydrogen sulfide stink is terrible. Hard to believe that they are "polluting less" based on the smell ....
Lannis
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What I hate is riding behind several new or new-ish cars going up a long hill. The hydrogen sulfide stink is terrible. Hard to believe that they are "polluting less" based on the smell ....
Lannis
I hate to be behind several cars of any kind on a good road :evil:
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:1: :1: :1:
When the gov't did the cash for clunkers, they took the wrong cars off the road. Those that could afford a new car were not driving the old beater that was burning oil and belching blue smoke. In fact, the program destroyed cars that would've been a significant upgrade for those that were, and likely still are driving a blue-smoke-belching POS.
The program should've been designed to promote a more natural, but sped up progression of the used car market.
The trade ins on the new ones should've been sold with incentives to the POS drivers. So long as the vehicle you're buying pollutes less than the one you are trading, you get the incentive. The worst POS's get junked.
The CFC program's objective was as an economic stimulus - putting $ into the economy & an ailing industry quickly was the priority, right or wrong. :blank:
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The CFC program's objective was as an economic stimulus - putting $ into the economy & an ailing industry quickly was the priority, right or wrong. :blank:
True, but, an unintended side effect was to kill cars that were in mid life cycle while many more near end of life cycle cars were still on the road. It may have also raised used car prices slightly for those least able to pay it.
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I know that sport bike guys use power commanders, but, I've never smelled ultra-rich exhaust behind any bike other than a cruiser, or an actual vintage bike. Interestingly enough, when I've ridden with other airheads, even older ones (/5) I don't smell it either.
A properly installed and programmed Power Commander (PC-V) shouldn't be running rich - just richer than stock. In fact, if installed with the AutoTune and a wideband O2 sensor, it can actually have better overall emissions control since the O2 sensor will be providing feedback in both of what were formerly closed and open loop sections of the range...
Now, as to whether most squids take the time to properly dyno their bikes, and whether they understand how to achieve power without excess emissions - those are other questions!
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We've progressed so much, that I wonder whether a rigged TDi is still SO much cleaner than any vehicle that you can see its emissions, that we should start focusing really on the mega polluters, even at the individual vehicle/driver level. Vehicles with engine problems or modifications that make their emission clearly visible (black particles, blue smoke) should get pulled over, inspected, and impounded if bad enough.
Cars get impounded for having illegal drugs, it's a much more direct consequence to have the vehicle impounded because the vehicle itself is the problem. The first time that happens to a school bus will be the last time the school bus company lets one of their belching beauties that needs a new engine out on the road. Rolling coal? Pull over good buddy!
Well, there are two major kinds of pollution, particularly with diesels - particulate (black belching) and NOx/CO2/CO. While we can't see the latter, it has a major effect on overall haze, smog, and other nastiness, particularly in areas that suffer inversions (LA, Las Vegas, and so on). At 40 times the specified volume of NOx, the tampered TDIs and invisible but nasty polluters - even if you can't see it.
And yes, we should be pulling visible polluters off the road - as well as the invisible ones when we find them. It would make owners, manufacturers and servicers a lot more aware of their part.
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Why is it that often when I get behind a cruiser that is new enough to not smell like a 60's muscle car from behind, it still does?
Yeah, it's rhetorical question. Notice I didn't say Harley, as I'm sure that riders of other makes like to tune 'em rich too. I know that sport bike guys use power commanders, but, I've never smelled ultra-rich exhaust behind any bike other than a cruiser, or an actual vintage bike. Interestingly enough, when I've ridden with other airheads, even older ones (/5) I don't smell it either.
Don't fool yourself, I've smelled the richness of airheads too... Most anything with a carburetor is a noticeable difference from latel model EFI.
I also seem to remember a VFR of yours with aa Two Brother's Racing exhaust that smelled pretty rich, just saying.
No, I was actually talking about older cars and trucks or ricers when I made that comment, but yeah sure there are also plenty of motorcyclists that do it too.
Maybe you mostly remember cruisers because they make up the vast majority of bikes on the road. Or maybe it's just because you don't like them in the first place so they stick in your head more.
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Don't fool yourself, I've smelled the richness of airheads too... Most anything with a carburetor is a noticeable difference from latel model EFI.
I believe it, just didn't notice it following my buddy on his /5. Maybe the smell of the /5 I was on was covering it :wink:
I also seem to remember a VFR of yours with aa Two Brother's Racing exhaust that smelled pretty rich, just saying.
Yes, I, I do recall smelling that following it when a buddy was riding it. By contrast, the VFR800 that I replaced it with was fuel injected. I'll bet that didn't smell.
No, I was actually talking about older cars and trucks or ricers when I made that comment, but yeah sure there are also plenty of motorcyclists that do it too.
Maybe you mostly remember cruisers because they make up the vast majority of bikes on the road. Or maybe it's just because you don't like them in the first place so they stick in your head more.
Cruisers the vast majority on the road -- absolutely, that might be it.
Because I don't like 'em? No, I can be more objective than that. No, cruisers aren't my choice of bike, but, I don't dislike all of 'em. Just the ones with smelly, rich, too loud exhaust, and traveling together in hurds, clogging up a twisty road on a nice day. :evil:
That said, I have also followed many that I couldn't smell. Often the ones that smelled were the ones with loud pipes too.
Oh, I've never smelled too rich exhaust behind your Sporty :boozing:
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Article in today's NY Times about whistleblowing at VW and a culture where employees feared to pass bad news up the chain of command. VW overdue for a corporate culture remake it seems. http://nyti.ms/1XXTJSx
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True, but, an unintended side effect was to kill cars that were in mid life cycle while many more near end of life cycle cars were still on the road. It may have also raised used car prices slightly for those least able to pay it.
What, a State program to regulate the economy that had an unintended side effect?
Unheard of! Absurd! That NEVER happens. What's next, reintroduce wolves to control the deer population?
Lannis
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Article in today's NY Times about whistleblowing at VW and a culture where employees feared to pass bad news up the chain of command. VW overdue for a corporate culture remake it seems. http://nyti.ms/1XXTJSx
And a pathetic offer of $500 gift card, plus another $500-$700 to spend at the VW dealership...I wonder if I can get a decent set of rims for that amount of money. Honestly, I think this is just a pittance, they should be offering at least 2-3000 depending on model as that's what the market price damage is likely to be. Just for kicks and giggles this weekend I dropped by 2 local dealerships to see what they would do about buying back my Passat TDI...which I am really enjoying, but thought it would be good to test the waters. One dealership wasn't even willing to do so, and the other has a TDI trade in program, but couldn't provide an accurate trade in value...very slippery.
Wait and see appears to be the best approach for the moment...
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Yeah, ask them just who do they think you are...BMW offered more for collapsible suspensions.
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Yeah, ask them just who do they think you are...BMW offered more for collapsible suspensions.
I presume due to the safety concerns on the BMW one - more of a liability issue than a pollution item. Pretty sure VW is going to get badgered to up their compensation...it's funny, now they are being cheap about the fix knowing full well they are responsible for the market value reductions. If they keep this up, they can rename their brand from the VolksWagen to the No Folks Wagen and that famous Fahrvehrgnugen campaign will have just become Ain'tdrivingnostinkingv eedubin! :)
If they could just add one more Nitrogen molecule to the Nitrous oxide emissions and capture it, they could sell it to dentists as laughing gas...joke for the chemists here. :)
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https://www.vwdieselinfo.com/goodwill_package/ (https://www.vwdieselinfo.com/goodwill_package/)
You can better believe that I'm going to read the fine print on that paperwork for the "Goodwill Package" before signing for it.
"Beware Trojans bearing gifts."
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This is the first have heard about compensation for current owners. I'm not looking to profit off this situation, but that's an insulting offer. It doesn't even come close to making up for the loss in market value directly attributable to VW's actions, let alone make any attempt at reparations. If that is the final offer, they have misjudged this consumer and will have lost me forever. I'm keeping my Ducati, though.
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It is though just a recall. It didn't kill anyone outright and it isn't like GM gave everyone anything for bad ignition switches. Dodge didn't give everyone something for bad airbags either.
As for loss of resale value, you'd have to sell the vehicle to realize damages. Most people will probably take the $500 because if they keep the cars, proving you had a personal damage might be very difficult.
Don't forget that class actions will go forward and owners will have to opt out of them to pursue individual claims. Chances are that the $500 might be more than you could get on your own.
I can see a buy back program but actual use of the vehicles wouldn't likely be free to owners.
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This is the first have heard about compensation for current owners. I'm not looking to profit off this situation, but that's an insulting offer. It doesn't even come close to making up for the loss in market value directly attributable to VW's actions, let alone make any attempt at reparations. If that is the final offer, they have misjudged this consumer and will have lost me forever. I'm keeping my Ducati, though.
:1:
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Ford and GM being accused of using software to defeat emissions tests ala VW. Hit the news today. Get out the checkbooks.
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Ford and GM being accused of using software to defeat emissions tests ala VW. Hit the news today. Get out the checkbooks.
??? All I could find in a couple of searches was:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/nov/11/vw-emissions-investigation-widened-bmw-mercedes-ford
Which seems more of an industry wide witch hunt than just "GM and Ford"?
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It looks like Ducati might be up for sale again. Who's in?
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/news/a27519/vw-sell-bentley-lamborghini-ducati-diesel-emissions/ (http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/news/a27519/vw-sell-bentley-lamborghini-ducati-diesel-emissions/)
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How is any of this different than virtually every US Car having a smog pump that pumps fresh air in to the exhaust post combustion to dilute the exhaust gas and reduce PPM numbers at the testing meter? Don't even try to give me the company line that the smog pump promotes burning in the cat..
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How is any of this different than virtually every US Car having a smog pump that pumps fresh air in to the exhaust post combustion to dilute the exhaust gas and reduce PPM numbers at the testing meter? Don't even try to give me the company line that the smog pump promotes burning in the cat..
Well, what vehicles have used secondary air injection in the last few decades??? Anything since OBDII?
But even when they were used they WEREN'T ONLY ACTIVE during emissions testing. They were used constantly, therefore constantly reducing emissions. It's not company line, it's simply science. Oxygen is necessary for combustion. The introduction of more O2 to hot exhaust gases that had unburnt hydrocarbons allowed for additional burning and reduction of HCs in the tailpipe.
This is unlike the VW systems that caused this scandal which were specifically designed to ONLY operate during tests. Therefore they were usually idle and allowing higher emissions at the tailpipe.
There's literally no comparing the two.
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How is diluting the exhaust with fresh air reducing pollution? There are still the same net pollutants per mile driven. All it did was dilute the ppm.. still the same p sum.
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How is diluting the exhaust with fresh air reducing pollution? There are still the same net pollutants per mile driven. All it did was dilute the ppm.. still the same p sum.
I thought I just explained it my friend.
I'll try again.
Unburnt HC's in extremely hot exhaust on carbureted engines were generally the result of overly rich fuel mixtures.
Oxygen is required for combustion and rich mixtures mean the HC to O2 ratios favor there being insufficient oxygen to burn all the HC's.
So when you introduce more oxygen to the super-hot exhaust gases you allow some of those HC's that didn't burn in the combustion chamber to burn off in the exhaust system.
The volume of air injected is not sufficient to really dilute the HC's as measured PPM. But the reduction in HC's due to the additional burning is.
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VW Hires Kenneth Feinberg to Handle Emission-Cheating Claims
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/vw-hires-kenneth-feinberg-handle-emission-cheating-claims-3582 (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/vw-hires-kenneth-feinberg-handle-emission-cheating-claims-3582)
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One wonders if there are any VW forums with 541 posts on this subject ??? :laugh:
Dusty
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One would hope! With all of the $ we'll get from VW, we can buy some more farkles for the Guzzis! :)
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One would hope! With all of the $ we'll get from VW, we can buy some more farkles for the Guzzis! :)
Checked a Case tractor forum , they were talking about Moto Guzzi . Hmm , that does kinda make sense :shocked:
Dusty
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Were they debating whether a V7 or a V9 would work better in the tractor? :)
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Were they debating whether a V7 or a V9 would work better in the tractor? :)
Neither , the discussion was about suspension and oil :laugh:
Dusty
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Would that be synthetic then vs. non synthetic? :)
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Would that be synthetic then vs. non synthetic? :)
Hard to tell , so much yelling . There seemed to be some consensus re what to run in their tires :huh:
Dusty
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WAHOO - got my letter to say that my 2 litre will get its re-map early in the new year and will take (wait for it.......) 30 minutes to do :rolleyes:
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WAHOO - got my letter to say that my 2 litre will get its re-map early in the new year and will take (wait for it.......) 30 minutes to do :rolleyes:
You must be in Europe. They still haven't figured out how to fix the US cars since emissions regs here are much tougher.
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You must be in Europe. They still haven't figured out how to fix the US cars since emissions regs here are much tougher.
I am and I suspect that my remap is to simply take the illegal US software out of the programme as its still UK compliant
1.2 is the same as mine - 30 minute job
The 1.6 version needs a "Flow Modifier" fitted in front of the Air Mass Flowmeter to "straighten the air flow" in addition to the remap :thumb:
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One wonders if there are any VW forums with 541 posts on this subject ??? :laugh:
Dusty
Probably more like 541 different threads on the subject.
This subject is pretty much dominating the VW forums since the news broke.
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I am and I suspect that my remap is to simply take the illegal US software out of the programme as its still UK compliant
Hmmm, I'll bet your fuel economy and performance suffer.
Please report back after you've had a chance to assess both.
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10-4
I've just seen that I'd missed the second CO2 scandal that broke in November - so maybe my MPG/performance will drop on the back of that
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I had my A5 serviced Wednesday, they gave me a loaner.
As we walked toward two A3 sedans, I noticed that one was a TDI and asked if I was getting that one.
She looked mildly surprised and said I could have it for the day. Apparently the diesel fans don't give a hoot, the "mileage" and non-fan types are horrified and don't want their cars.
I loved riving it. It was a DSG-which with drive-by-wire I dislike due to odd hesitations but that's OK. Other than that it is a great car to drive. I thought the little "wee" filler next to the fuel filler was funny-I thought Audi/VW didn't do the DEF thing on the 2 liter cars. Maybe it's a '16 and can't be sold?
Case foum-yeah, I been there. Got a Vanguard in my tractor.
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I loved riving it. It was a DSG-which with drive-by-wire I dislike due to odd hesitations but that's OK. Other than that it is a great car to drive. I thought the little "wee" filler next to the fuel filler was funny-I thought Audi/VW didn't do the DEF thing on the 2 liter cars. Maybe it's a '16 and can't be sold?
The 2015 Golf (Mk7?) has DEF. Was the A3 you drove a hatchback or sedan (sadly, we don't get the new A3 hatchback in the US). If sedan, then, it is the new one, which, has DEF.
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>>Checked a Case tractor forum , they were talking about Moto Guzzi . Hmm , that does kinda make sense<<
Speaking of tractors, my neighbor has a little Case garden tractor, which I guess is ok. But what it really needs is about 15 more horsepower--then I might buy one too.
Are there any cheap modifications I can make to get this performance gain?
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>>Checked a Case tractor forum , they were talking about Moto Guzzi . Hmm , that does kinda make sense<<
Speaking of tractors, my neighbor has a little Case garden tractor, which I guess is ok. But what it really needs is about 15 more horsepower--then I might buy one too.
Are there any cheap modifications I can make to get this performance gain?
Drill it full of holes, nothing lighter than a hole . Better power to weight ratio .
Dusty
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I bought a 2016 VW Golf Sportwagon TSI
averaging 34 mpg so far and with 87 has cheaper than diesel its frugal and fun to drive
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I still love my TDI. I've gotten 69 mpg on the way to work one day. 45 miles one way. I average about 48 to 52.
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I bought a 2016 VW Golf Sportwagon TSI
averaging 34 mpg so far and with 87 has cheaper than diesel its frugal and fun to drive
Gas engines are definitely starting to look like the better choice. Factor in the higher cost of fuel, the price premium on the initial purchase, and the hassles of filling up with diesel and I'm no longer advising anyone to purchase diesel cars.
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I still love my TDI. I've gotten 69 mpg on the way to work one day. 45 miles one way. I average about 48 to 52.
I'm gonna guess that your TDI is 2006 or earlier.
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I'm gonna guess that your TDI is 2006 or earlier.
Nope. 2014 beetle convertible.
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One wonders if there are any VW forums with 541 posts on this subject ??? :laugh:
Dusty
TDIclub has over 67,700 posts.
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And a dedicated forum.
this scandal wouldn't put me off a TDI, but I've had other issues, plus I'd like to see a few more years on the common rail system, before I did it again.
I got gelled a few times too.
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TDIclub has over 67,700 posts.
Any of them about MG flat tappet failures ? :evil: No ?
Dusty
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http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-usa-idUSKBN0UI1QP20160104
Now the big boys are playing for keeps.
"The allegations against Volkswagen, along with its Audi and Porsche units, carry penalties that could cost the automaker billions of dollars, a senior Justice Department official said. VW could face fines in theory exceeding $90 billion – or as much as $37,500 per vehicle per violation of the law, based on the complaint. In September, government regulators initially said VW could face fines in excess of $18 billion"
A tough lesson learned, or not.
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"Could cost" not "will cost" .
Dusty