Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Boj1 on September 29, 2015, 07:23:00 AM
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After spending the last two days going through the archives here....I think I have a clutch disc going bad. If anybody could help confirm this diagnosis, I would appreciate it.
A few rides ago, I stalled the bike coming to a stop with the clutch pulled in. Weird, I thought... but it only happened that once. Each subsequent ride, it has happened more and more where I pull the clutch in but the bike stays in gear. A blip of the throttle is usually enough to break the clutch free.
Clearly something is not right in there. About to start pulling the clutch apart to see what. Hoping for somebody to give me an easier fix. All the adjustments on the clutch cable seem fine, with no changes in pull and just a little bit of play. The rod that the arm where the cable attaches to is slightly sunk into the casting, not flush like I read it is supposed to be. Since I have bought it(less than a year and 1000 miles) it has occasionally had the clutch slip a little on takeoff. This is my first Guzzi so am still trying to identify problems from 'character'.
Thanks for any assistance,
Chris
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how many miles on it? there are 3 adjustment points, at the lever on back, at the clutch lever on bar AND on the right side of the tranny where it bolts thru a flange, have you tried that adjustment? I'd want to be sure it was not just a cable set up before disassembling the clutch itself.
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Did that year come with a single plate clutch, by chance?
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ahhh, you guys want ALL the information :) sry
Bike has 27k on it and it is a dual plate clutch(verified through the inspection window based on pics from here). Cable seems to have the proper amount of freeplay and I did not notice it ever change. Would it still make sense to look at that adjustment on the clutch itself?
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Sounds like you have to go in.
No easy way to tell what is going on until you get in there.
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Might be the adjustment.
The test (for me) is you have to make it tight enough so that when in gear engine running you can easily find netural. Learned this from a long time guzzi guy here in France.
This is not to say you may be coming to the end if clutch life but you might try it.
m
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Your clutch hub is notched. Common problem back in the 80s, the 4mm spline was supposed to remedy this problem but, it's still an issue.
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Where are you located? A second opinion could save you some trouble and there are many knowledgeable folks scattered around.
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Where are you located?
Rochester, NY
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Sounds like you have to go in.
No easy way to tell what is going on until you get in there.
+1
Though it sounds to me when I read your posts that it might be a clutch plate having gone into "shedding the friction material" mode. Starting with smaller chunks getting jammed between the plates.
Not the first time in history.
Also, I came to think of the possibility that your Cali model came with the spoked plates like this ? : http://www.harpermoto.com/29084450-clutch-plate-complete.html
They are prone to breaking, and are in my opinion reason enough to go in there and replace them with solid ones like this : http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=1165 as they often seem to break when you`re a long way from home. (emoticons not working today on my computer)
//Ben
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Sounds like you have to go in.
No easy way to tell what is going on until you get in there.
Took me a while....but I am in there. Now what??? :popcorn:
I have the gearbox off and am looking at the flywheel. Nothing obviously wrong...I expected something on the bottom of the housing, but all is clean in there(relatively). Looks like I need some special tools to do any further dis-assembly.
For reference, I have been following:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/pdf/access-gearbox-clutch-big-twin-en-2004-07-04.pdf (http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/pdf/access-gearbox-clutch-big-twin-en-2004-07-04.pdf)
And this looks to be hugely helpful too:
http://archive.guzzitech.com/Clutch-joeM.html (http://archive.guzzitech.com/Clutch-joeM.html)
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Your clutch hub is notched. Common problem back in the 80s, the 4mm spline was supposed to remedy this problem but, it's still an issue.
That seems to be the most likely cause of the problem. The clue was that when you blip the throttle, the clutch releases. The spline is worn and won't move smoothly.
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Look at the splines on the transmission. Are the notched or badly rusted?
Takes the ring gear off and inspect the clutch plates and intermediate plate. No special tools needed to remove the plates. You will want the alignment tool to put it back together though. I hear it can be done without the tool, but I wouldn't.
(put a paint mark on the bits so you can easily realign them.)
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Pictures would help. :gotpics:
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Let's see if this works from my Google acct....
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NSVtdOADyZk/VhKx7go1I_I/AAAAAAAAFjA/TfXEX38IZjI/s319-p/15%2B-%2B1)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-izXXDyQhfLg/VhKx7j1qyTI/AAAAAAAAFjI/L_ywjNNMfPI/w756-h567-no/15%2B-%2B5)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-37qLDfWXDiE/VhKx7lPHY0I/AAAAAAAAFjY/c9De5IZbjxc/w756-h567-no/15%2B-%2B4)
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Look at the splines on the transmission. Are the notched or badly rusted?
Takes the ring gear off and inspect the clutch plates and intermediate plate.
Nothing notched or rusted. The third pic above looks like metal flakes on the bottom of the housing. Had to go back out in shop and look again, ,it is just the angle of the pic. I think that is oily clutch residue.
To remove ring gear, just remove the 6 large bolts with yellow dots on them in my pic?
Is the plate in the very center suppose to rattle a little? it has a slight amount of movement.
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Ahh,- so it is a single plater after all !
It`s normal for those that the center piece rattle a little.
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WHAT!
You still have a single plate clutch?
How many miles on that?
That used a diagram spring, and the center release piece does float and can rattle if I recall.
Most of those filled the bell housing with glittery metal bits and started to slip over 10 years ago. But yours is not slipping, it is dragging. Very odd indeed.
PS, I noticed that you pulled out the speedometer drive gear. Some times there was a hardened washer on the bottom of that gear that you do not want floating around in there. If it was there.
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Crap! When I bought this last year, I compared the view through the inspection port with the pics floating around here. Apparently wishful thinking got the best of me, thought it was the dual.... at lease i got the hydro valve update and forks issue correct.
All I know is the odometer says 24,589. Guy I bought if from says he put almost no miles on it as he came across a screaming deal on a new Triumph soon after purchasing this from the original owner. All other indications show this bike was well taken care of.....
Guess it is time to research what to do next. Not thrilled with spending over a grand in parts for a dual clutch on a bike I 'only' paid $2,500 for. Suggestions welcome.
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Find used stuff on ebay. I sold my 'take off' dual plate clutch and flywheel complete for $450. So they can be had reasonably.
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The teeth in the bottom photo look pretty rusty on my monitor.
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I'm new to this forum and also recently purchased an '03 California with a sticking, single-plate clutch.
I've got mine torn down and there's no "readily apparent" reason I can see for its malfunctioning. Now I'm waiting on a used dual-plate clutch and flywheel to arrive which I purchased on eBay (I bought it mostly for the flywheel and ring gear).
I've done a lot of research on this, so far: You'll need a double-clutch flywheel with ring gear, and a different clutch gear (the dual-plate gear is different) along with the rest of the dual-plate clutch parts. I'm hoping to find the special tools to borrow since I don't relish the thought of spending $200+ in special tools, if I can avoid it! :tongue:
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Excuse my ignorance....but I am way out of my comfort zone now.
Would this work to replace my single plate clutch?
(http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOTO-GUZZI-10-SPRING-FLYWHEEL-COMPLETE-SET-UP-/221198889035)
If I have not said it before, thank you all for your assistance. This is one of the more helpful forums I have been on.
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I'm not able to see the pic you attached, for some reason.
You managed to get the bike torn down and the gearbox removed: That's a big step.
Have you looked at the parts diagrams on guzzitek.org?
My used, dual-plate flywheel and clutch are due to arrive tomorrow and I'll be resuming work on my swap very soon...
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I'm not able to see the pic you attached, for some reason.
Neither am I, but I guess it`s this one ? : http://www.ebay.com/itm/221198889035?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_ftrt%3D901%26_sop%3D12%26_sadis%3D15%26_dmd%3D1%26_ipg%3D50%26_ftrv%3D1%26_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D221198889035%26_rdc%3D1
Both 8- and 10 spring clutches will fit your bike.
I wouldn`t buy this set though, - notched flywheel and spoked friction plates.
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[quote
I wouldn`t buy this set though, - notched flywheel and spoked friction plates.
[/quote]
I can see the notched flywheel but my '01 EV has over 97,000 miles on a clutch like that. I had it apart around 90k for a rear crankshaft seal and the clutch & u-joint still look as new.
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Neither am I, but I guess it`s this one ? : http://www.ebay.com/itm/221198889035?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_ftrt%3D901%26_sop%3D12%26_sadis%3D15%26_dmd%3D1%26_ipg%3D50%26_ftrv%3D1%26_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D221198889035%26_rdc%3D1
Both 8- and 10 spring clutches will fit your bike.
I wouldn`t buy this set though, - notched flywheel and spoked friction plates.
That was the one I was looking at, tks. Looking like she will stay tore down for winter so I have time to find something good.
Thanks again for everybody's assistance.
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Have you looked at the parts diagrams on guzzitek.org?
My used, dual-plate flywheel and clutch are due to arrive tomorrow and I'll be resuming work on my swap very soon...
Yes I have seen that parts diagram. Good luck with your swap...i may be picking your brain in the near future :grin:
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At the risk of overstaying my welcome here....one more question.
What else would I get in a $500 used ebay clutch that I do not get in this new $725 kit from Moto International(besides the $225 and two months it would take to order from Italy where they do have them in stock)?
http://www.motointernational.com/store/clutch--flywheel-parts/twin-disc-clutchflywheel-kit (http://www.motointernational.com/store/clutch--flywheel-parts/twin-disc-clutchflywheel-kit)
In addition to the kit above, what else would I need besides the clutch centering tool? Sorry, that was 2 questions :evil:
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At the risk of overstaying my welcome here....one more question.
What else would I get in a $500 used ebay clutch that I do not get in this new $725 kit from Moto International(besides the $225 and two months it would take to order from Italy where they do have them in stock)?
http://www.motointernational.com/store/clutch--flywheel-parts/twin-disc-clutchflywheel-kit (http://www.motointernational.com/store/clutch--flywheel-parts/twin-disc-clutchflywheel-kit)
In addition to the kit above, what else would I need besides the clutch centering tool? Sorry, that was 2 questions :evil:
To convert from a single plate, you need the clutch hub center to go on the transmission. I would replace the oring and seal on the transmission.
You need to replace the screws and lock washers attaching the flywheel to the crank. They are not supposed to be reused. MGcycle has a kit.
If I were using used parts, I would replace the plates and maybe the springs if there are many miles on the used one. MGcycle has plates that are riveted AND bonded. I've had good luck with those.
But then that sort of makes up the cost difference for the used parts.
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To convert from a single plate, you need the clutch hub center to go on the transmission. I would replace the oring and seal on the transmission.
Actually, there are TWO different sized o-rings under the input shaft hub. Do them both.
Look at the pieces of the speedometer drive which you removed. Do you see that little washer between the helical drive and the outer housing? That is a thrust bearing. There is another identical one for the bottom of the helical drive shaft. Normally it stays down inside the transmission resting on a little support shelf and held in place by the sticky oil. However, if you roll the transmission you have a fair chance of dislodging or losing that lower washer. Get in there NOW with a flashlight and a magnet to pull it out and keep it with the speedo bits.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Might be the adjustment.
The test (for me) is you have to make it tight enough so that when in gear engine running you can easily find netural.
Please don't make the clutch cable snug or tight. Always keep freeplay. A tight cable constantly loads the throwout bearing at the back of the transmission and it is not engineered for continuous load use. It is a momentary use bearing.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Well good luck on finding a clutch Chris! You can have it shipped to me while you are gone. Plenty of Guzzi storage here :thumb:
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I have a 2004 California with the same clutch problem. I spoke with Dave in Moto International although those kits are listed he is unsure of their availability.
I priced out the pieces form Harpers and MG cycle no difference in cost from the factory kit. Dave and Curtis (From Harpers) said an option was relining the existing plate. The original was 6 mm and it should have been 6.5 mm Rochester brake and clutch said they can reline the plates.Their is a member on the board called cave he is in Syracuse he has the tools and is willing to lend them out.
I live near Batavia but work in Rochester so anything I can do to help just let me know.
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If it's a reline-able plate any good brake shop should be able to reline it with the surface of your choice. I worked at a custom brake shop that did nothing but that sort of thing all day.
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That eBay clutch is a ten spring unit which is preferable to an eight spring if you are heavy or have successfully modified for more power.I would buy that and replace the discs as well as the floater.
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At one time Greg Field talked about relining them to get them to last longer. I never heard what material he tried, or what results he got.
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At the risk of overstaying my welcome here....one more question.
What else would I get in a $500 used ebay clutch that I do not get in this new $725 kit from Moto International(besides the $225 and two months it would take to order from Italy where they do have them in stock)?
http://www.motointernational.com/store/clutch--flywheel-parts/twin-disc-clutchflywheel-kit (http://www.motointernational.com/store/clutch--flywheel-parts/twin-disc-clutchflywheel-kit)
After a long winter away from the snow and this project, finally got back in town a few weeks ago. Ended up getting the kit above from Moto International and it seems to be just what I needed. Got it on the bike yesterday, still have a long way to go to get her all back together....
PS, I noticed that you pulled out the speedometer drive gear. Some times there was a hardened washer on the bottom of that gear that you do not want floating around in there. If it was there.
Look at the pieces of the speedometer drive which you removed. Do you see that little washer between the helical drive and the outer housing? That is a thrust bearing. There is another identical one for the bottom of the helical drive shaft. Normally it stays down inside the transmission resting on a little support shelf and held in place by the sticky oil. However, if you roll the transmission you have a fair chance of dislodging or losing that lower washer. Get in there NOW with a flashlight and a magnet to pull it out and keep it with the speedo bits.
The two quotes above have me concerned as i could find no washer or bearing where the speedometer drive was. I ended up removing the gearbox cover to verify it was not in there. I do not see anything on the parts diagrams but there have been many references to it so I am a bit concerned... Also, while in there does it make sense to replace the shifter return spring?
Thanks for any assistance,
Chris
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If you're going in, definitely replace the shift spring!
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Unless Guzzi changed the design, your 5-speed should have 2 thrust washers on the speedo drive. Often, they just stick in position held by the oil viscosity. The lower one just rests on the shelf where the tip of the speedo drive gear resides. Looking down the hole it might not be readily apparent that a steel washer is sitting atop an aluminum shelf. A magnet might help. Strong light and a long probe tool to reach to the bottom of the speedo drive hole and examine for a not-quite-so-loose washer. Meanwhile the upper thrust washer should still be on the upper shaft of the drive gear or on the bottom tip of the outer housing.
How about posting a pic of your speed drive parts laid out? We might spot something for you. Consider that the speedo drive gear is a worm drive affair. As such, during acceleration and deceleration, that gear is going to try and move up and down vertically. Without thrust washers, the steel drive gear would quickly wear the surrounding aluminum. If someone knows that the design has changed, please speak up. Every 5-speed I have seen has two thrust washers. They are likely never shown as individual parts but only sold as a combined package. So, the washers don't have a unique part number.
Here is a parts diagram from early 5-speed LoopFrame. Note one washer is clearly shown without a part number designation. The second washer is in position half way up that shaft. Also note that these parts are never shown as part of the transmission diagram. They are shown as part of the instrument diagram page.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/bYRArF/speedthrust.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bYRArF)
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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How about posting a pic of your speed drive parts laid out? We might spot something for you.
As requested:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/jJzryv/P5250284.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jJzryv)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/crDJdv/P5250287.jpg) (http://ibb.co/crDJdv)
Sure does look like room for another washer down there.... It appears someone else has been in here to do work on the clutch. The writing on the starting gear says 11/5/07, assuming that means the clutch was changed(keeping a single plate????) in 07. My guess is they lost that washer...unless someone has a better explanation, I am going with that. Does not look like any wear on the cover, so I guess I will find a matching washer to the one that is on the worm drive. Cover is off and internals inspected so the washer is definitely not in there anywhere. Below is the parts explosion i was working off of that does not show any washers at all. I clearly have at least one...
(http://thumb.ibb.co/kifLrF/speedodrive.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kifLrF)
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I doubt you will find any source for a new washer. It is not a plain washer, but rather a hardened thrust washer to serve as a load bearing surface. The good news is that every five speed has two of them. They seldom wear. So, you should be able to contact one of the salvage sources and get an original washer from another unit. Contact Mark Etheredge at Moto Guzzi Classics or Ed Milich at GuzziPower.com
I'd still be curious about where that original went.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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My 2004 EV did not have a lower washer. The direction of rotation means it likely isn't needed anyway.
The aluminum had no wear without it.
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My 2004 EV did not have a lower washer. The direction of rotation means it likely isn't needed anyway.
The aluminum had no wear without it.
Well, that is an important bit of news since the OP has an 03. I wonder if anyone knows for certain when the system dropped from two to one. Interesting data point could save someone a lot of grief and disassembly.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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I like OMG's answer best as I do not have to do anything! :)
On a dif subject...I have yet to find any reason for the original issue of sticking in gear when the clutch was pulled. What should I look for? There is no obvious debris or worn parts.
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This from John Noble's gearbox rebuild tutorial>concerning washers for speedo drive.
Although not a problem for most, I subsequently found the washers I had made were a bit too thick at
1.5mm and fitting both caused the drive and layshaft to lock, they should have been 1mm. Apparently
running the drive without washers is not a huge deal but not ideal. I overcame the problem by getting a
1mm spacer made to install under the top stationary collar which lifted the housing out of the endcase
and accounted for the extra thickness of the washers. This allowed me to run a top and bottom washer.
The washers spread the axial load of the spinning helical drive
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Here's a brief test that might give you some peace of mind about the non-existent second washer. You'll need a common caliper with a depth probe slide (could potentially do it with a stick and ruler). First measure the thickness of your existing washer. By above report, that should be 1mm. Now, compress your drive gear into the carrier housing and measure the distance from under the large hex head, to the bottom lip of the tip of the drive gear. That is where the lower washer should reside. You've just measured the MINIMUM internal distance required in the bore. I copied and edited your pic:
(http://thumb.ibb.co/ctOvQa/speedwasher.jpg) (http://ibb.co/ctOvQa)
Now, using the depth probe of your caliper, measure from the top lip sealing surface of the transmission housing down to the 'shelf' which bears the lower end of the gear. Compare the dimensions. Ideally, you wouldn't want this drive gear moving up or down very much and you wouldn't want the tightening of the top hex to bear or bind on the gear and washer(s). Your internal depth should be at or slightly more than the measured length of your gear components. If your interpolated gap is less than 1mm, then I'd go without a lower washer and conclude that you never had one. If it should be substantially more than 1mm then you might want to consider use of a lower washer to close most of the gap.
Should be a simple measure and compute. Can you report back? This is really important to know that Guzzi may have a design change mid-stream. I'd hate to have someone give me a pile of parts to rebuild and then stress over a potentially missing washer when one wasn't intended in the first place. Obviously there are work-arounds, but it is good to know that the parts discrepancy exists from year to year.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA