Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: canuguzzi on September 29, 2015, 09:28:28 AM
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If you want a brand new 2014 Norge, now might be the time.
Look around, if your quote is over 12 or over, that is too much, they can be had for less just for the asking.
The Norge is one of the most capable STs out there, smooth, fast and reliable. The Norge is the stealth tourer that does everything with a subdued competence that give you a Joker grin every time you get on it.
There are quicker, faster, heavier and gimickyer butnnone but all that in one package to be any better.
Face it, you can be the one watching a Norge go by and saying Wow! or you can be the one riding it and screaming Weeeeeee!!!!!!!
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Yes, there are some good deals out there.
I got a favorable price on a used 2012 Norge this past summer witha little over 3000 miles. It's a flat tappet engine, so I'll be upgrading with the roller kit soon. I'm also planning on making a few other modifications I've seen described on this forum.
Thanks for all the good information --
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Pro Italia has one for 10K.
I just rode one last week (not there) for the first time, expecting to buy. I loved it except for the leg cramps I got as soon a I climbed on. Wonderful ride but I couldn't live with the leg room, and I'm not a tall guy. What a shame. I had to take a Stelvio home.
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Pro Italia has one for 10K.
I just rode one last week (not there) for the first time, expecting to buy. I loved it except for the leg cramps I got as soon a I climbed on. Wonderful ride but I couldn't live with the leg room, and I'm not a tall guy. What a shame. I had to take a Stelvio home.
My story too.
Lannis
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Pro Italia has one for 10K.
I just rode one last week (not there) for the first time, expecting to buy. I loved it except for the leg cramps I got as soon a I climbed on. Wonderful ride but I couldn't live with the leg room, and I'm not a tall guy. What a shame. I had to take a Stelvio home.
My story too.
Lannis
No problem for me.
Tho hardly near-NBA height (70-71 inches, depending on time of day, etc.!, with a 30" inseam), I simply find the moderate fetal position to be rather appropriate for riding above my competence level -- tho not the Norge's.
I really do like that espresso & grappa livery, but sigh, not likely for $ome time, no matter how reduced. Sure hope this helps clean out some inventory.
Bill
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I bought a 14 for a song-as described. A custom seat raised by 1 1/2 inchs solves the legroom thing quite well as I would have replaced the seat no matter what.
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Not specific to MG, the makers of motorcycles don't do enough to build in adjustability for riding ergos. Often the things like seats, handlebars and would work well if they could be adjusted even slightly.
I have two seats for the Norge and sometimes change up. A single seat isn't the answer, adjustability it.
Few ofnus would buy a car if we couldn't adjust the seats and steering wheel positions. While more bikes have some adjustments for seats it is still not common. A bit of work in that area would do a lot to sell bikes.
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I came within a gnat's ass of buying a new 2014 Norge a couple of weeks ago but after reading through a lot of threads, I decided that I didn't want to roll the dice that I wouldn't get one that may have some of the problems that I read about. I have no interest in pulling my bike trailer for a five hour round trip to the dealer to sort out a bike that should have come fully sorted from the factory. After a couple of sleepless nights, I decided to pass and bought a different brand. No doubt about it: The Norge is a gorgeous bike.
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I came within a gnat's ass of buying a new 2014 Norge a couple of weeks ago but after reading through a lot of threads, I decided that I didn't want to roll the dice that I wouldn't get one that may have some of the problems that I read about. I have no interest in pulling my bike trailer for a five hour round trip to the dealer to sort out a bike that should have come fully sorted from the factory. After a couple of sleepless nights, I decided to pass and bought a different brand. No doubt about it: The Norge is a gorgeous bike.
What threads did you read? Maybe some other forum?
There aren't any problems with the 2013 or 2014 model years and about half of the 2012 model year. All the threads you might be referring to were very clear about the flat tappet model years.
Maybe you could clarify what problems you were referring to?
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@Norge Pilot
Several owners have posted within the last few months re. buying new Norge models and the bikes leaving them stranded. Problems were either factory design problems with wiring or screwed up by improper PDI. No way to know which since dealers & factory point fingers at the other. I'm a huge fan of MG but no interest in having to troubleshoot and repair stuff on a new bike OR trailer it back & forth to the dealer who is 2 1/2 hours away (one way in good traffic).
The threads are on here. Here's one where others also had problems: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=77385.0
I didn't bookmark the others because I read all that I needed to read to make a decision.
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Oh Norge Pilot, you are an evil one. My bank account tells me it hates you right now. I just bought two new Guzzis in a year's time and you've got me wanting another one. I was originally thinking of waiting until next year for a leftover 2015 Stelvio (I love that blue one) but $10k before dealer fees for a new Norge is a crazy good deal. The metallic brown on the 2014's is a very subtle and classy looking color that is definitely growing on me. So the question is Norge now or Stelvio later? Good thing I'm flying out on a business trip shortly so I can 't make any rash decisions until I return.
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@Norge Pilot
Several owners have posted within the last few months re. buying new Norge models and the bikes leaving them stranded. Problems were either factory design problems with wiring or screwed up by improper PDI. No way to know which since dealers & factory point fingers at the other. I'm a huge fan of MG but no interest in having to troubleshoot and repair stuff on a new bike OR trailer it back & forth to the dealer who is 2 1/2 hours away (one way in good traffic).
The threads are on here. Here's one where others also had problems: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=77385.0
I didn't bookmark the others because I read all that I needed to read to make a decision.
I hear you and understand.
That said, I am so smitten by Mandello maidens that I'd buy a new one in a heartbeat.
And, FWIW (and I mean that, tho it is worth something) my brother has had no issues that I can recall (NPI!) with his (second) 8v Norge, an espresso & grappa beauty.
Now, back to the Moto Grappa, where my Norge patiently waits for me to come down and remove some tupperware to install the thingamabob I found on the floor after declaring victory in reassembling with "no leftover parts." Sigh.
Ciao ...
Bill
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Riders Hill in Dahlonega GA has a 2014 -0- miles for 11,295 + tax
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I was fortunate to run into a fellow rider at a bike shop a few years ago who had just that week traded his 1200 Sport on a lighter weight Ducati. During the course of conversation he mentioned still having the Corbin saddle he had purchased from another Norge or Breva 1100 owner. I expressed interest, but asked if I could ride it for a day to see if it would work for me. No problem 'ride it for a week if you want.'
I rode to his home, put the Corbin on the 1200 Sport, and told him I'd call him next day, and either bring him a check, or return the saddle. Halfway into the 40 mile ride home on the Ohio Tpke, I'd already decided ..... call him tonight and let him know I'd be bringing him a check next day. He gave me a terrific deal on this nearly new saddle.
The Corbin isn't that much higher than stock, but it is flatter than the Sport's, firmer by far, and wider, which in a round about way increases seat to peg distance.
Because I'm short, I do most of my local riding with the stock (almost) saddle, but for a trip, it's off with the stock and on with the Corbin.
If any of you Norge owners live close to Hudson Ohio, I'd be happy to let you try the saddle on your bike to see if it would work for you before you plunk down cash with Corbin.
http://corbin.com/motoguzzi/mgnrg7.shtml
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@Norge Pilot
Several owners have posted within the last few months re. buying new Norge models and the bikes leaving them stranded. Problems were either factory design problems with wiring or screwed up by improper PDI. No way to know which since dealers & factory point fingers at the other. I'm a huge fan of MG but no interest in having to troubleshoot and repair stuff on a new bike OR trailer it back & forth to the dealer who is 2 1/2 hours away (one way in good traffic).
The threads are on here. Here's one where others also had problems: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=77385.0
I didn't bookmark the others because I read all that I needed to read to make a decision.
comments
End of the quoted post.
My comments below.
While you've already decided to guy something else, I'd like to use your post to clear up some misconceptions or misunderstandings in the hopes that others reading might make informed buying decisions.
First, forums are the wrong place to go when making a deciding decision about buying anything, unless you know the people saying stuff or they have well reasoned comments that you can verify against other unbiased information.
The PDI has nothing to do with the inherent quality of reliability of the Norge, just as it wouldn't be with any other bike. If a shop doesn't set the bike up properly, while it can affect how the bike perform and and a poorly executed PDI can result in a poorly performing bike, that can happen with any brand and any model of bike regardless of price.
It is partly the responsibility of the buyer to do more than blindly go in, buy a motorcycle and then abrogate all other responsibility to the dealer. That means before handing over your money, checking service references, talking to the service manager and even asking to see the training certs for the factory training the techs have.
Failing to do that makes one a fool who will be taken time and time again and then blame everyone else or the manufacturer for something the buyer can actually check on and do something about to prevent a bad experience.
If the price is great but the service isn't up to par, there is nothing wrong with buying a bike at one dealer and getting it serviced at another. Going with the flow only insures you get hosed.
Then it comes to actual problems. There will always be reports of problems, all brands and models included. It is a disservice to oneself to read a forum, see a report of a problem and based on that conclude everyone will experience that problem unless it is proven to be that way. While the flat tappets are a now known problem and likely to happened to the models of the 8V that have them, it affects only those models so avoiding that issue is pretty simple.
Then, beware of single reports as they are often regurgitated and recycled over and over again. What was an isolated problem becomes the ubiquitous issue of the day. It isn't reality, not even close.
For the model years 2013, 2014 and on, if 2015s are out, there are no systemic problems that make the Norge unreliable or less suited than any other ST for the job intended.
Startus interrupts is actually a very minor thing, easily avoided but then again, owners go many thousands of miles and never experience it. My Norge hasn't had the problem but you know, I maintain my Norge as it should be and that includes the battery. I do not try to save pennies to eek out the last remaining charge capacity out of a battery anymore than I'd try to see how long I could go without an oil and filter change before the engine ate itself. I do carry the fix should it happen but then I also carry some Velcro and a credit card which take up more space.
If you aren't prepared to either maintain a motorcycle or pay someone else to do it for you, might I suggest a lease on a Prius?
When it comes to dealers, it is true that they aren't exactly plentiful but then most show stopping failures happen a long way away from a dealer, regardless of brand or model. One deals with those things IF they come up and as these are all motorcycles, not being prepared is another reason to get that Prius and stick to city roads where tow trucks abound.
I have said over and time again, just because something happens to one person or even some, that doesn't mean it happens to everyone unless we're talking about dying. You might notice, I sure have, that many of the problems reported happen to the same people over and over. The first thing they do is start screwing around with the engine, the transmission and often end up with a mess. Then they run to the forum because that is where the fool who told them to use 10w30 in their Norge hangs out and now they need help diagnosing the noise the engine is making. The same applies to a lot if things, lots of advice, often from those who never really did it themselves or better yet, they come out with:
"I don't own a Norge but ..." which is about as inane as getting advice from a lumberjack to fix a toaster. Yet this happens a lot and people read it and go " yup, sounds good, I'll pour some of the 10w30 in my Norge and add a jar or vaseline because some unknown person said so. The result is a thread about some huge problem.
Many problems are also half stories because few people will admit to doing what some fool told them to do based on nothing but a guess or they just leave out the most important aspects of what really happened. Yeah, their electrical system got fried, right after their nearly dead battery gave up the ghost and they plugged a high voltage feed into it to jolt the battery into submission. Now they are crying about bad wiring and asking help with getting their 1500 watt riding suit working again.
If one makes an buying decision based on forum chatter that isn't verified or based on the experiences with a dealer, chances are they will over and over again make lots of bad decisions because they are led around and tend to go with the flavor of the month.
Just remember, misery lives company and when one person complains about something, right or wrong, self inflicted or not, legions will embrace it and pound it into fact.
Also be wary of reports by engineers and self proclaimed gurus. Unless they are willing to post their credentials, they don't know more than the kid in shop class who figured out righty tightly lefty loosely. On this forum, we are gifted with good, knowledgeable people and the ones to heed when they speak are all easily verified as to who they are and what they know and can do and so far, none of them claim to work for NASA.
In then end, the Norge is reliable and is a world class ST machine, capable to take anyone and their excess anywhere without breaking down. The engine is marvelous, the styling is simply beautiful and elegant and the competence as good as any other ST.
To avoid any misunderstandings , this is not personally directed at the poster but I just used that post to illustrate how perceptions can be formed in the absence of facts when it comes to the Moto Guzzi Norge.
I wish more people had them, then I might actually see one other than mine outside of a showroom.
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Any chance they are blowing them in preparation for a new touring bike in the fall?
Mike
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Pro Italia's email blast... (deals on every MG...check out that 1400 price!)
Norge GT 1200 Mahogony Brown $16,190 $9,990
Griso 1200 Silver/Black $12,990 $10,990
CA 1400 Custom Black $15,490 $10,990
CA 1400 Touring Black $18,495 $13,990
V7 Racer 750 Chrome $10,495 $7,990
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That's one heckuva price on that Norge.
Something tells me the Norge will soon be following GRiSO to the great beyond.
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That's one heckuva price on that Norge.
Something tells me the Norge will soon be following GRiSO to the great beyond.
Hmmmm.
maybe I should rename the "Moto Grappa" the "Great Beyond." :laugh:
Bill
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@Norge Pilot:
Wow! I simply posted why I didn't buy a Norge when shopping for another bike a couple of weeks ago. You really don't need to "inform me" about buying motorcycles since I've been riding since 1969, have owned over 45 motorcycles and have ridden somewhere around one million miles on two wheels. I've also performed my own maintenance on every bike that I've owned.
You may choose to make buying decisions with YOUR money but I will make my own decisions based on my own criterion. If you don't like that, then we can agree to disagree but you really shouldn't attempt to talk down to me (or anyone else on this forum) like you're talking to a five year old.
I NEVER said that the Norge was a bad machine; in fact, my post was rather short re. my decision. It's obvious to many of us that you really love your Norge and I'm truly glad to hear that you are a happy Norge owner. Life is full of choices and we all make decisions for our own specific reasons.
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That's one heckuva price on that Norge.
Something tells me the Norge will soon be following GRiSO to the great beyond.
Even so ................... both bikes have enjoyed several years of production. Not sure when the 1100 Griso was announced in Europe, but a Wiki article provides these dates for:
- Griso 8v: Introduced at GMG Sept 2007
- Norge: Introduced in Europe in 2005
That's a relatively long run for bikes these days. Except for the new Bonnie that's been in the US since 2001.
I can't imagine Guzzi throwing the $$ at a new sport tourer, when the one they now have is perfectly fine, as is the GRiSO, aside from the fact that neither bike is marketed and supported very well (obviously there are regional exceptions) therefore the low sales numbers and heavily-discounted left overs. We all love the format (V twin/driveshaft/etc) But how can a company expect revisions or totally new designs based around this format alone to improve their sales? They're only preaching to the choir, and the choir isn't very large.
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I didn't inform YOU about anything. I made it perfectly clear the post wasn't personal to YOU. Can't help if you couldn't read that.
I said it twice in my comments, it wasn't directed to you but others because you said there were problems you didn't want to deal with. I correctly pointed out that problem with a dealer, for whatever reason doesn't bear in the fundamentals of the bike unless they are truly design or manufacturing problems.
Sorry but when you say things like you did, casting questions about the reliability of the Norge based on PDI, that needs to be addressed or other people might accept your comments being related to the basic reliability of the Norge, which in effect is what you did.
There are no factory problems with the wiring. If there were, everyone would have the problem, they do not. Many Norge owners go tens of thousands of miles with no more than routine maintenance and something's that might break, which can break on any bike.
I read your reasons for not buying a Norge, did you? That you didn't buy none doesn't matter to me. Saying it has problems you can't describe or can't point to as a systemic problem to the model required correction.
I hope you are happy with your choice. Hopefully, if some dealer buggers it the blame doesn't go the the basics of the bikes manufacture or that a single post on some forum makes you decide you bought the wrong one.
No worries, if I am wrong, jump on me, others have. I either shoot back or see they know more than me. In used to think MGs were the king of the repair bill too, I bought a Norge and itbhas been stone reliable. It blew a rear seal, so have thousands of other bikes and it got fixed under warranty. It was crappy when it happened but when someone comes out with a guaranteed no break bike, I'll buy one instantly.
Feel free to reply with more than opinion, say some facts regarding problems of the magnitude you implied and go from there.
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Even so ................... both bikes have enjoyed several years of production. Not sure when the 1100 Griso was announced in Europe, but a Wiki article provides these dates for:
- Griso 8v: Introduced at GMG Sept 2007
- Norge: Introduced in Europe in 2005
That's a relatively long run for bikes these days. Except for the new Bonnie that's been in the US since 2001.
I can't imagine Guzzi throwing the $$ at a new sport tourer, when the one they now have is perfectly fine, as is the GRiSO, aside from the fact that neither bike is marketed and supported very well (obviously there are regional exceptions) therefore the low sales numbers and heavily-discounted left overs. We all love the format (V twin/driveshaft/etc) But how can a company expect revisions or totally new designs based around this format alone to improve their sales? They're only preaching to the choir, and the choir isn't very large.
MG could expand the choir if it produced a compelling ST. While the market for STs has shrunk, even within that market MG could sell many times what it does now most likely.
At a couple/three thousand over the current MSRP for the buyer, at their costs they could do quite a bit. Clean up the plastics fit and integrate the dash to side covers, add some pockets there along with the defacto standard of accessory power and audio placement capabilities. More adjustment on the windscreen, a two piece saddle with rider adjustment up/down, revised instruments and add cruise control.
Some things like that and the Norge would be quite different and enough so that many current Norge owners might upgrade, especially 4 valve owners. With changes like that, MG could tap a larger percentage of the existing ST market. Like the lemonade stand that gets into a mall from the side street.
Getting that on a current Norge would be cost prohibitive or a lot of work for kludge results. Maybe 2-3 grand extra at purchase time? Sign me up.
I know I'd run down to get one unless they came out with a middle weight ST and then that would just be an addition instead of a replacement.
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I am considering a new 2013 Norge that is available for a very decent price. However, I just bought a replacement for my now deceased 2014 Norge at the gentle but persuasive prompting of my wife due to safety concerns (I was rear-ended recently, and my 2014 Norge was totaled, but miraculously I escaped unscathed), my lengthy and often horrible commute (some f*&king "freeway," with my foot down half the time!), and the approaching monsoon weather here in idiot sled-ville Oregon:
(https://scontent.fsjc1-3.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/t31.0-8/12087258_10205047441527668_520342739213993730_o.jpg)
I need to tread carefully, if you know what I mean. Marital harmony is important, at least when I am at home and not at work!
I wonder if I could buy it secretly on an off-the-books "lay-away" arrangement? (I could feed the dealer some cash every now and then as clients feed it to me.) After all, it is just sitting there at the dealer, with no one else to love it and give it a home... Me: "Surprise! I wanted to be able to take you for a ride again!" My wife: "What the h%*l!"
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Jeff, its just a motorcycle (incoming!!!) even if it is a Norge and Moto Guzzi.
Happy wife=long life but you already know that. Don't concern yourself, there will be brand new Norges available for a few more years even if they stopped making them. Even should that not happen, we still see 2009 models with a few thousand miles so finding a 2013/14 in 2016/17/18 or whatever with maybe 4k miles won't be hard.
Its quite reasonable to think MG will either dump the Norge or go through another update with it in which case that might even be better.
If it were to come down to wife or Norge, the Norge would find itself elsewhere in a second, not even a question. Its a machine. It sure isn't a matter of who runs things, here WE runs things together. I have a Norge in part because of her, not in spite of her.
I wouldn't do a lay away and keepnit quiet, that is the start of subterfuge and leads too bad joojoo. From what you've said you already know that too.
You are a lucky man to have the wife you do. The Norge? Nearly 600 pounds of metal and plastics and they are and will be plenty of them when you really want one and it fits.
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^ Yep! You are right. It is much better to work these things out together!
I will have another Moto Guzzi. It is just a matter of time. In the meantime, we have our two Vespas to ride around the countryside together (and a cabin to remodel!).
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Adventure motorsports in Pensacola has 2 new 2014 norges (1 white and 1brown). When last I looked at their website they were priced at 11,999. Some one go buy them so I don't have to wrestle with e temptation any longer
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I understand what Jackson is saying completely having been stranded with my '13 Norge this summer with an oil leak. Had similar issues with my '07 Norge. Having no mechanical skills my Norge has been in the shop for about a month now. Don't get me wrong, this is the 5th MG I've purchased new. I love the marque but have thought about jumping ship myself. Nothing really gives me what my Norge gives me in enjoyment, however. I suppose these issues can occur with any brand. Boils down to dealer network I feel. If you're going to choose MG you have to know what you may be in for.
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I second that.
And, if I were buying a NEW bike today, one of the discounted Norge's would probably be my choice. Just too good a deal to pass up. With the savings I can add the stuff it is 'missing', like a cruise control.
But, blowing oil seals is not my idea of a reliable bike. Doesn't matter if it was covered or not.
Reliable bikes are common these days. Guzzi still has a ways to go to meet that kind of goal. But, I will still ride mine and if I buy a new bike someday I will first look and see what Guzzi has to offer.
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As many here know, Guzzi decided to dangle a carrot a month longer than they had originally. It supposedly ends this month. Anyway, Cleveland Moto has a Root Beer Norge with a 3K off tag on it. Sure is a purty thing.
John Henry
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I understand what Jackson is saying completely having been stranded with my '13 Norge this summer with an oil leak. Had similar issues with my '07 Norge. Having no mechanical skills my Norge has been in the shop for about a month now. Don't get me wrong, this is the 5th MG I've purchased new. I love the marque but have thought about jumping ship myself. Nothing really gives me what my Norge gives me in enjoyment, however. I suppose these issues can occur with any brand. Boils down to dealer network I feel. If you're going to choose MG you have to know what you may be in for.
That was your experience and not what most experience. Lots of bikes have had oil leaks, cooling fluid leaks, fuel tank leaks. It can happen to any bike brand and any model of bike.
The other comment (someone else) about blown oil seals? Like no other bikes have that happen on occasion?
Now, if someone wants to not buy a Norge based on isolated incidents or the few that make the rounds on forums that is one thing, to each their own.
To say the Norge is unreliable based on that is pure rubbish and those who'd say that know it.
Plainly put, if the few incidents where someone got stranded with a particular brand or model of bike is the criteria for purchasing or jot, then pack up the kids and head to Wally World in the Rambler because every brand and model or motorcycle ever made has had some failures that left the owner stranded.
What I'd like to read is just what those who say the Norge is unreliable consider " reliable" and then let's see if any motorcycle ever made can meet that criteria. I bet that no matter what is considered reliable, there will be an example of the motorcycle they bought or would buy having failed to meet that standard.
Any takers?
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A friend of mine has a 2012 Norge and part of the wing from the bird on the front of fairing broke off and it took him a month to get a replacement. Can you believe that, one month!
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A friend of mine has a 2012 Norge and part of the wing from the bird on the front of fairing broke off and it took him a month to get a replacement. Can you believe that, one month!
Did it have to be trailered? :evil:
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There's a beautiful 2014 Norge in pearl at Rider's Hill. I think he said he had 2 more in the back with one of them in mahogany. Price is $11,295.
We bought a Powerball to see if he would take that instead of cash but couldn't close the deal. :(
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Did it have to be trailered? :evil:
I don't think so.
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I get it that these are great prices, but if they are 2013 - 2014's that can't seem to get sold....doesn't that tend to imply that you're taking on something that you'd better like for a long time as you won't be able to sell it either?....except at a much greater loss than, say, a BMW?
Just askin'.....
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^ Well, that is a good point. However, I personally NEVER make money when I sell a vehicle, whether bike or auto. I always buy high and sell low and therefore "lose" money. But really, what have I lost? Nothing! I got to use and enjoy the vehicle while it was in my care. Then on to the next one!
Speaking of BMWs, not too long ago, I bought a 750Li for $30,000. (The original owner had paid around $90,000!) I drove it long and hard for several years and finally sold it for $10,000. Did I lose money? I don't think so.
If you buy a new Norge for $11,000 or $12,000 and ride it and enjoy it for years and thousands of miles and then sell it for half of what you paid for it, so what?
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Cars and motorcycles are rarely investments of anything but a depreciating value. Few things are free and riding a motorcycle isn't one of them. Who know, 50 years from now, a well maintained Norge will probably sell for close to what you paid for it but then so would a lot of things that old.
If you really like the Norge, what you can sell it for doesn't matter.
About the resale value of that 2 year old FJR, ST1300 or better yet, a nearly $100,000 Mercedes...
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If you really like the Norge, what you can sell it for doesn't matter.
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If you buy a new Norge for $11,000 or $12,000 and ride it and enjoy it for years and thousands of miles and then sell it for half of what you paid for it, so what?
Yup.
I solve this nonproblem by keeping mine. And my other Guzzis, too.
Sold my Ballabio in 2006 ... to my continuing regret. Otherwise, I just ride 'em, admire 'em, mess with 'em (can't call what I do wrenching; it's more entertainment :wink:), and just appreciate 'em. Not fiscally, but physically.
If get the serious hots for a new one -- as I have just now for a espresso e grappa Norge and a V7 -- I'll just have to get better at moving the harem around in the Moto Grappa as if I were in a moto-Rubik's-Cube. :grin:
Bill
P.S. "No, Kathi, I did not say I was buying a new Norge and V7!" :thewife:
"Yet." :wink:
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Yup.
I solve this nonproblem by keeping mine. And my other Guzzis, too.
Sold my Ballabio in 2006 ... to my continuing regret. Otherwise, I just ride 'em, admire 'em, mess with 'em (can't call what I do wrenching; it's more entertainment :wink:), and just appreciate 'em. Not fiscally, but physically.
If get the serious hots for a new one -- as I have just now for a espresso e grappa Norge and a V7 -- I'll just have to get better at moving the harem around in the Moto Grappa as if I were in a moto-Rubik's-Cube. :grin:
Bill
P.S. "No, Kathi, I did not say I was buying a new Norge and V7!" :thewife:
"Yet." :wink:
Agreed and right.
I'm always surprised when people are concerned about "how much they can get when they sell the bike" before they even buy it .... Buying new vehicles of ANY kind is a losing proposition.
However, things like my '75 Norton Interstate will probably hold their value pretty well. That'll be a concern for the estate distribution, though, not for me!
Lannis
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What I'd like to read is just what those who say the Norge is unreliable consider " reliable" and then let's see if any motorcycle ever made can meet that criteria. I bet that no matter what is considered reliable, there will be an example of the motorcycle they bought or would buy having failed to meet that standard.
Any takers?
Yes, my Honda NT and the collected experience of about 100 of them on the US forum. At least two in the US with over 100k miles and NO oil leaks or blown seals. A couple of others had bad fork seals due to gunk not cleaned off tubes (fixed mine with a feeler guage). One had a rear end go bad due to a bad mechanic (rear wheel was installed incorrectly). One of the 100k bikes had nothing but normal services done on it.
So, a bike can be made to go for long mileage without major issues.
I do have to admit, Honda did a terrible job with the pannier latches. But, I'll take the bad latches rather than a main seal.
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I'm always surprised when people are concerned about "how much they can get when they sell the bike" before they even buy it .... Buying new vehicles of ANY kind is a losing proposition.
Lannis
I think it's reasonable to understand how much you're paying for your entertainment.
I've walked away from salesmen who started talking about buying a new car as an investment. That's stupid.
But, it's completely reasonable to assess how much something will actually cost you and how liquid it is. Things can change in your life that will dictate a sale.
I'm surprised when people spend money on something (esp. something that isn't necessary) and don't consider:
- how much it really costs (which includes depreciation),
- how liquid it is,
- how much does maintenance impose on your use of it and the costs of the maintenance,
- fixed costs vs. variable costs,
- how much your life schedule and weather will affect your use,
- the ways in which it's rewarding to you, etc.
Those who never consider stuff like this end up paying child support for kids they're not even sure that are theirs.... :wink:
For example, if it's rewarding to do your own maintenance and upgrades, then the down-time can be as rewarding as riding. Friends of mine enjoy working on and upgrading their airplanes as much or more than they like to fly. They like to tinker or take on significant projects. That's different from someone who got their bike (airplane) to be with others and out riding, don't do their own maintenance nor find it rewarding, and now it's in the shop for month(s) of the best riding weather.
Grey matter is all you got to differentiate you from a stump. (Well, ok, your desire to accessorize makes you different, too.)
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Yes, my Honda NT and the collected experience of about 100 of them on the US forum. At least two in the US with over 100k miles and NO oil leaks or blown seals. A couple of others had bad fork seals due to gunk not cleaned off tubes (fixed mine with a feeler guage). One had a rear end go bad due to a bad mechanic (rear wheel was installed incorrectly). One of the 100k bikes had nothing but normal services done on it.
So, a bike can be made to go for long mileage without major issues.
I do have to admit, Honda did a terrible job with the pannier latches. But, I'll take the bad latches rather than a main seal.
No NT has ever had a major problem, not one of them? That was my point, not what some forum members experienced because forum members aren't representative of all who own that specific motorcycle, not even close.
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Sorry but the Honda NT has its own set of problems with bad fuel pumps, plug caps and various electrical maladies.
Want to try again?
It is pointless. Every bike made will across all those sold have some that experience problems. Running to forums and making statements like one would rather deal with quirky latches instead of leaking seals is like saying you'd rather drink water than gasoline, implying it is a choice between one or the other.
Just where is that criteria for reliability? No one has one because if they dare say the bike must be perfect they know there is no such thing, not a Norge and not a Honda NT.
The failure to properly maintain or service a motorcycle has nothing to do with its reliability other than self inflicted pain.
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No NT has ever had a major problem, not one of them? That was my point, not what some forum members experienced because forum members aren't representative of all who own that specific motorcycle, not even close.
I did not say that. Only the 100 or so that are represented on the US forum. About the same sample size as the Norge in here. So, "apples to apples". If there were very many NT's with major problems they would probably show up as questions in the forum at some point, kinda like Norge problems in here.
And there are many more NT's in Europe, some with several hundred thousand miles with no major problems.
I still say that the Norge, and Guzzi in general, has a long ways to go to get to the reliability level of many of the other mfgs.
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I think it's reasonable to understand how much you're paying for your entertainment.
I've walked away from salesmen who started talking about buying a new car as an investment. That's stupid.
But, it's completely reasonable to assess how much something will actually cost you and how liquid it is. Things can change in your life that will dictate a sale.
I'm surprised when people spend money on something (esp. something that isn't necessary) and don't consider:
- how much it really costs (which includes depreciation),
- how liquid it is,
- how much does maintenance impose on your use of it and the costs of the maintenance,
- fixed costs vs. variable costs,
- how much your life schedule and weather will affect your use,
- the ways in which it's rewarding to you, etc.
Those who never consider stuff like this end up paying child support for kids they're not even sure that are theirs.... :wink:
For example, if it's rewarding to do your own maintenance and upgrades, then the down-time can be as rewarding as riding. Friends of mine enjoy working on and upgrading their airplanes as much or more than they like to fly. They like to tinker or take on significant projects. That's different from someone who got their bike (airplane) to be with others and out riding, don't do their own maintenance nor find it rewarding, and now it's in the shop for month(s) of the best riding weather.
Grey matter is all you got to differentiate you from a stump. (Well, ok, your desire to accessorize makes you different, too.)
All that is reasonable, yes. I was just thinking about the depreciation part. Apparently, from the INITIAL asking prices of people trying to sell bikes that they bought one year ago and now want to sell, they have no idea of the degree of depreciation that a new vehicle has - they'll try to sell a year-old vehicle for more than a dealer will sell one new with a few rebates or whatever ....
If I thought there was even a 10% chance that my life situation would change within 12 months such that I would be forced to sell a new vehicle, I would never have even considered the vehicle in the first place. But that's just me .....
Lannis
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I did not say that. Only the 100 or so that are represented on the US forum. About the same sample size as the Norge in here. So, "apples to apples". If there were very many NT's with major problems they would probably show up as questions in the forum at some point, kinda like Norge problems in here.
And there are many more NT's in Europe, some with several hundred thousand miles with no major problems.
I still say that the Norge, and Guzzi in general, has a long ways to go to get to the reliability level of many of the other mfgs.
I didn't say you said anything, I asked the question to see if that was what you were implying.
What do you consider a major problem? See, that is the thing here, no one yet will come right out and say what they consider is reliable when it comes to motorcycles.
Many major problems reported can be traced to lack of maintenance, no service or poorly executed service or someone fiddling around with something they had no business messing with.
All I'm asking for is for a criteria to be cited if someone is going to talk about reliability.
For the record, there was a post here and the reliability of the current model Norge called into question and cited as a reason not to buy one, based on anecdotal information on a forum where no pattern of inherent failure was evident.
Some NTs have gone more than a couple hundred thousand miles without a major failure. Why only some? Why not all? Because there is no such thing.
How about this?
A reliable motorcycle is one where across the model none have had a failure that prevents the motorcycle from being used for it's designed purpose.
If those saying the Norge is unreliable and that is what has been said, the least they could do is state what the criteria for claiming what they consider reliable is. If not, then it is sour grapes and its justification of an decision made on the basis of anecdotes and few facts.
A comment about seals. Rubbish. Seals are expendable items. They can fail on anything for a variety of reasons. I have experienced a real seal failure, it was replaced. NT have had seal failures too, go search you'll find them.
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NT 700 Final Drive Failure?
"Read an interesting letter in the April issue of Motorcycle Consumer News.
Seems this gentleman was riding his NT on a rural road at about 35mph when a bad vibration started, followed by loud rumbling noises from the rear drive area.
Bike was picked up by a Honda dealer. Upon inspection the dealer found the rear ring gear pinion bearing had failed, sending metal pieces into the ring gear. Estimated cost of repair was $1,300 to $1,400. His oil was at the proper level when failure occurred.
Dealer contacted Honda, who admitted it should not have happened, but the bike was out of warranty and they could offer no help, final answer.
Could there be a number of NT's out there that have bad pinion bearings?
I may keep a close watch on the rear end oil for signs of trouble.......bad color, smell, metal shavings, etc."
Then there is this from NTSA:
"Tl* the contact owns a 2010 honda nt700. The contact stated that the while traveling 35 mph, the rear wheel vibrated violently and then seized. The vehicle was taken to the dealer and the contact was informed that the rear pinion bearing needed to be replaced. The vehicle was not repaired. The failure and current mileages were 6,000.
"
Now, would this be enough to stop anyone from buying an NT? Some, sure. A well reasoned decision? Up to the reader.
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Yep, IIRC that was the guy whose rear wheel was installed incorrectly. And, it is the only instance in the US that I have heard about. Yes, he did fight Honda over that one as he had an extended warranty. And he did lose. Mainly because of the service dept he had taken it to. They would not admit fault.
Can you find any other major problems or is that it?
There were a couple of guys who had water pump problems. Leaking a little, but, not enough to stop them. They were fixed at the next service. Three that I know of. Bad fuel pumps? I only heard about one of those. Plug caps. Yep, there was a bad batch of them. Most guys had theirs replaced even if they were not in the Honda Service Bulletin. Electrical maladies? If you mean the switches needed a squirt of contact cleaner every now and then, yes. The guy who competed in the Iron Butt this year had a wire to his alternator break on the last day. Only case of that I have heard of as well.
I still venture that Guzzi has a ways to go with more expensive issues.
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Yep, IIRC that was the guy whose rear wheel was installed incorrectly. And, it is the only instance in the US that I have heard about. Yes, he did fight Honda over that one as he had an extended warranty. And he did lose. Mainly because of the service dept he had taken it to. They would not admit fault.
Can you find any other major problems or is that it?
There were a couple of guys who had water pump problems. Leaking a little, but, not enough to stop them. They were fixed at the next service. Three that I know of. Bad fuel pumps? I only heard about one of those. Plug caps. Yep, there was a bad batch of them. Most guys had theirs replaced even if they were not in the Honda Service Bulletin. Electrical maladies? If you mean the switches needed a squirt of contact cleaner every now and then, yes. The guy who competed in the Iron Butt this year had a wire to his alternator break on the last day. Only case of that I have heard of as well.
I still venture that Guzzi has a ways to go with more expensive issues.
Um, pretty sure we all know that this isn't a comparison thread Norge VS NT but about the sale prices for the Norge and then someone said based on a thread(s) that weren't indicative of major reliability issues for all 2014 models (what he used in the post) that it was unreliable. In fact, he pointed to a single thread to make the decision not to buy.
How about this, you clearly state the major reliability problems with the 2014 Norge that apply to a large portion of all those in the model year, or even the 2013 model year and then see how it goes. Otherwise this is just a slugfest about the NT vs Norge and sorry but the NT isn't even in the same class.
Now, can you state the criteria or what you consider reliable?
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A new 2014 Norge for under $10k is a great price. Grab one if you like the model. Roller tappets, pulls like a train and will give you a permanent grin. Mine is a 2011 , great bike, has been set up correctly by dealer and has no issues at all. Iam lucky enough to get out on weekdays and usually do 2-300 km rides. Does the motor good to get hot and stretch its legs. Fuel av at 4-5 to 5 litres per 100 kms. Next year, planning a ride to Darwin. I trust this bike to perform well. Go for it!
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Dear Charlie B and Norge Pilot- to paraphrase a Ford owners tshirt-
I'd rather push a Moto Guzzi than ride a Honda!
Lol just kidding but I hope you get my point.
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About the resale value of that 2 year old FJR, ST1300 or better yet, a nearly $100,000 Mercedes...
Which is why I love the 2010 K1300GT I bought this summer for 12 grand. Ridiculously overpriced at its originally MSRP of $23K, but the best bike I ever owned for $12K. On the other hand, depreciation and these Guzzi deals are killing me on the California 1400 I want to sell. It'll be $8,000 before it's over...
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So who all went and snapped up one of these good deals?
This has been a good late summer to buy a Guzzi!
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Me.
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NICE work King of Fleece!!! Lets hear all the cool details!