Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: moshe_levy on September 29, 2015, 04:43:02 PM
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Hello All-
Lately, my 2013 V7 Racer has taken to acting like a carburated bike with no choke when it's cold. The idle oscillates, and touching the throttle causes the engine to stall. Once it warms up in a few minutes, all is well - but clearly, something is wrong. For reference, it's a Sunday-only bike, with only 1,800 miles on it, purchased new August 2013. Any help appreciated - nearest dealer is well over an hour away.
-MKL
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Have you had a dealer load the latest fuel map?
Sounds like it needs it
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Have you had a dealer load the latest fuel map?
Sounds like it needs it
Shortly after I purchased it, I hit 600 miles and had that service done. Nothing since then. As I said, I only use it on short Sundays (my RT is my main mileage machine.) I can ask them for that map, but if the old map was the culprit, wouldn't the bike have always run this poorly? It was always fine, until now.
-MKL
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The seasons are changing.
I'm sure one of our pros will chime in soon.
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The seasons are changing.
I'm sure one of our pros will chime in soon.
Looking forward to it. The F/I on this bike was always spot on, so it's not the seasons, either. Something is wrong, but I've never had an F/I bike behave this way (very lean when cold) so I don't know what to make of it.
-MKL
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Uneducated Guess:
Heat and pressure changes have vented gas into the canister which can't purge well enough on short runs.
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It caught something from those beemers. :evil:
Seriously needs a new map. 2013 Stone. Soon after purchase exhibited same exact symptons. Larry at MPH fiddled with it, ran fine for next 2000 miles. Started again back to MPH for new map runs better than when new.
Like Rocker59 suggested new map probably 1/2 hour shop time.
Larry also suggested that I ride it more.
Dave
Galveston
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It caught something from those beemers. :evil:
Seriously needs a new map. 2013 Stone. Soon after purchase exhibited same exact symptons. Larry at MPH fiddled with it, ran fine for next 2000 miles. Started again back to MPH for new map runs better than when new.
Like Rocker59 suggested new map probably 1/2 hour shop time.
Larry also suggested that I ride it more.
Dave
Galveston
OK, I'll make an appointment and get the map done. Seems easy enough. I wish I could ride it more, believe me. 3 young kids means I get a few hours Sunday leisure, and that's it. I do commute on the RT daily and have racked up over 5,000 miles on it since taking delivery about 2 months ago - compared to the poor V7R that has 1,800 after 2+ years!
-MKL
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OP, that's EXACTLY how my V7 Stone performed from day one and for the first almost 10k miles.
I recently had the updated map installed and it might be a bit better. At least the first couple of cold starts seemed better. But it is not perfect and it stalled on me the other day maybe a minute or so after starting.
I'm told there may be a cold start trim learn procedure to follow that I might try next.
But you probably have nothing to lose starting with the new map.
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The new map, 352BV738, made a pretty big difference on my bike.
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I find the real bonus with the new map is the smoother low speed fueling. I'm so used to cold-blooded Guzzis, I always allow a warm up anyway.
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I find the real bonus with the new map is the smoother low speed fueling. I'm so used to cold-blooded Guzzis, I always allow a warm up anyway.
That might be true once warm. But Sunday it was really a cold hearted bitch on me again warming up. I was surprised (and bummed). It's the only bike in the garage that can't start and pull away in the first few minutes. Hell, all of the others can start and pull away that instant.
Anyway, for my education, how long do you normally warm it?
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That might be true once warm. But Sunday it was really a cold hearted bitch on me again warming up. I was surprised (and bummed). It's the only bike in the garage that can't start and pull away in the first few minutes. Hell, all of the others can start and pull away that instant.
Anyway, for my education, how long do you normally warm it?
I start it then donn my riding gear. Probably 2-3 minutes. Mine stalled at the MD rally after sitting for a couple hours when I tried to take right off. So, not a 100% cure. I also had a difficult time starting it shortly after a gas fill up. Rode it hard for several miles then turned it off hot when we stopped briefly. When I tried to restart it seemed to only run on one cylinder and the oil light stayed on with ZERO power. Turned it off immediately, then it took a few attempts to start before firing up. Ran normal after that. This has happened once or twice before, always after getting gas and turning it off hot.
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Part of the wide differences of experience here may have to do with how we define cold. I'm a native southern Californian, and furthermore, my ancestors roamed the desert for 40 years, so I'm not a cold lover. My bike stays in the garage when the temperature is below 45F. Above 45F, I haven't had any cold start issues with my '16 Stone, nor did I have any with my '13 Stone after I updated the map to 352BV738. However, the OP seems to be saying that his bike's cold issues came on suddenly, after being fine for a couple of years, and that would indicate something's changed.
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I always found the warm start to be the worst for cold-bloodedness. In a true cold start situation I don't have an issue with 2 minutes of idling while putting on gloves and helmet, but it's that immediate stall after stopping for 20 min that's really annoying. It's a stall that can't be saved, either. Kind of embarrassing as you're trying to pull away from the gas station.
I guess it adds character and on the scale of potential problem severity it's pretty far down the list, but it is fairly annoying. Most fuel injected vehicles can be immediately driven from a cold start without even a stumble.
It doesn't sound like the revised factory map has completely cured the problem. I'd be interested to hear from people using third party maps if they have the same issues.
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I always found the warm start to be the worst for cold-bloodedness. In a true cold start situation I don't have an issue with 2 minutes of idling while putting on gloves and helmet, but it's that immediate stall after stopping for 20 min that's really annoying. It's a stall that can't be saved, either. Kind of embarrassing as you're trying to pull away from the gas station.
I guess it adds character and on the scale of potential problem severity it's pretty far down the list, but it is fairly annoying. Most fuel injected vehicles can be immediately driven from a cold start without even a stumble.
It doesn't sound like the revised factory map has completely cured the problem. I'd be interested to hear from people using third party maps if they have the same issues.
I've never had a stall with a warmish engine, e.g., after 10 min to an hour after stopping. So, the mystery is, what's right about my bike that's wrong about yours?
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Lows in the 50s here, right now.
With the new map, my bike will pull away from my house at 1500 rpm and almost no throttle, with only a moment's warmup. No stumbling.
Previously, it would stumble and stall. I had to rev it to 2000 rpm and do a lot of clutch slipping. Even after a couple minutes of warm up. And even at the stop sign a couple blocks down the street.
Now, when warm, on level surfaces it will pull away in first gear at idle speed and little or no throttle.
The low speed, off-idle fueling is much improved.
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The new map is a solution for most of these bikes I've seen and heard about. But Kev's bike is an example of one that's an exception, so this map may not be your solution (though I'd start with that if I were you and then go from there).
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The new map is a solution for most of these bikes I've seen and heard about. But Kev's bike is an example of one that's an exception, so this map may not be your solution (though I'd start with that if I were you and then go from there).
Also, use Guzzidiag to make sure your map is the one the dealer told you was installed. Mistakes can be made, for example, the update may not have been completed and wasn't "taken" by the ECU, or the dealer's PADS wasn't completely up to date.
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It's weird how from day one my problem ONLY has occurred on COLD STARTS (overnight, or AT LEAST a few hours of cooling time). And then it basically goes away after it is warmed. If I waited at least 2-3 minutes and put my riding gear on AFTER starting it I'd probably not have much of a problem.
The new map (and I'll confirm with Guzzidiag soon, assuming I can get it to connect with the new cables), SEEMS to have changed the low speed nature of the motor AFTER WARMUP. But during warmup she's bucking again, seemingly as badly as before.
<shrugs> It's a first world problem for sure.
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I agree with sib that the OP seemed to indicate this was a fairly new problem.
Along with Kev and others, my bike (2013 V7 Special and should have the latest map...dealer checked when it was in earlier this year) needs to warm up to be reliable. Otherwise it idles rough/erratically and dies very easily. Lots of clutch work and revving and dying.
I often try to short-circuit the warm up time and regret it: last weekend for example, it just died as I was leaning into a corner at a slower speed and was giving it a bit of throttle (thank goodness they're fairly light bikes).
Once it's warm, not a bit of trouble.
I'll talk to the dealer about it again when it's in next time but they're good folk (Moto International). I very much doubt they didn't get the map applied.
I guess I get to call it "character". ;)
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I agree with sib that the OP seemed to indicate this was a fairly new problem.
Along with Kev and others, my bike (2013 V7 Special and should have the latest map...dealer checked when it was in earlier this year) needs to warm up to be reliable. Otherwise it idles rough/erratically and dies very easily. Lots of clutch work and revving and dying.
I often try to short-circuit the warm up time and regret it: last weekend for example, it just died as I was leaning into a corner at a slower speed and was giving it a bit of throttle (thank goodness they're fairly light bikes).
Once it's warm, not a bit of trouble.
I'll talk to the dealer about it again when it's in next time but they're good folk (Moto International). I very much doubt they didn't get the map applied.
I guess I get to call it "character". ;)
FWIW, you and I could both try that cold idle learn procedure that Pete was talking about (start it dead cold without touching the throttle and let it idle until FULLY WARMED - i.e. hella hot, longer than I would like to).
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Have you got a box fan you can place in front of the bike to move some air?
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Have you got a box fan you can place in front of the bike to move some air?
I've got a pretty good sized one in the shop. Of course that's just going to mean it's going to sit and idle longer lol. But maybe it would at least spread the heat around a bit.
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The R motor Beemer guys use that trick when setting the throttle syncs back in the day. Works.
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Worth remembering too that the single TB smallblocks still have the rather horrid plastic mount for the ETS in the right head which means that there is a very good chance the ET reading is wrong. If it never detects it's getting fully hot it won't trim up well and this will be most noticeable at smaller throttle openings and at idle. Chances are that the difficulty in restarting occasionally in situations where there has been a briefing shut-down will be due to heat soak-back affecting the sensor input. That is the reason I can come up with for the 'Get it devilishly hot at resting TPS value' trick working. Without the cooling influence of air flow the sensor will, eventually, get to its maximum reading allowing the ECU to trim far the very high temperatures experienced from soak back while stationary. That's why I'd recommend performing the 'Idle till hot/no touch the throttle' trick with a diagnostic tool plugged in. Once the detected ET reaches the point where the sensor is at its maximum, (Or minimum, I can't remember which it is?) resistance the procedure will be complete and you can turn the bike off and let it cool down. Hopefully that will cure the hot start issues.
Pete
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Well, I made contact with my "local" dealer (actually some 55 miles away) and I inquired if they would cover this under warranty, since I'm only a few days out of my original warranty period. They checked with Guzzi, and Guzzi said no. So, tomorrow, I'm going to call Guzzi myself and I'm hoping to get some coverage. I understand the issue of the fuel map being suspect, but I can't wrap my head around that being the true issue. Fuel maps don't just "go bad." The bike is behaving like it's not fuel injected, but rather carburated, running cold with no choke - until it warms up (3-4 minutes) and then it runs perfectly.
Previous to this, I always started, and rode right off. No warm up time, just like my BMWs. Sure, I don't hammer on her until she's warmed up a bit, but there was none of this stumbling and stalling. Again, I admit my ignorance of Guzzis, but I did have a friend with a Harley once which exhibited a similar issue. Turns out a sensor was bad, leading the ECU in that bike to fail to richen up the mixture while it was cold. Sounds EXACTLY like what is happening here.
Let's see what Guzzi says tomorrow re coverage. It's worth trying, since I'm so close to warranty period, AND I have gotten their bike in the press a time or two....
-MKL
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Moshe, considering you don't get to enjoy the bike as much as you'd like, how's the fuel? Relatively fresh, or old and stale? FWIW, a fresh tank of gas might help if the bike has been sitting. Or not.
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It'll be interesting to find out what happened.
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I always found the warm start to be the worst for cold-bloodedness. In a true cold start situation I don't have an issue with 2 minutes of idling while putting on gloves and helmet, but it's that immediate stall after stopping for 20 min that's really annoying. It's a stall that can't be saved, either. Kind of embarrassing as you're trying to pull away from the gas station.
I guess it adds character and on the scale of potential problem severity it's pretty far down the list, but it is fairly annoying. Most fuel injected vehicles can be immediately driven from a cold start without even a stumble.
It doesn't sound like the revised factory map has completely cured the problem. I'd be interested to hear from people using third party maps if they have the same issues.
Same about the warm startup on my V7 II, with both the original old one and rexxer maps. It seems like either like an ECU bug (e.g. misreads some signal input) or like a sensor going wild due to radiant heat from the hot engine.
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Well, I made contact with my "local" dealer (actually some 55 miles away) and I inquired if they would cover this under warranty, since I'm only a few days out of my original warranty period. They checked with Guzzi, and Guzzi said no. So, tomorrow, I'm going to call Guzzi myself and I'm hoping to get some coverage. I understand the issue of the fuel map being suspect, but I can't wrap my head around that being the true issue. Fuel maps don't just "go bad." The bike is behaving like it's not fuel injected, but rather carburated, running cold with no choke - until it warms up (3-4 minutes) and then it runs perfectly.
Previous to this, I always started, and rode right off. No warm up time, just like my BMWs. Sure, I don't hammer on her until she's warmed up a bit, but there was none of this stumbling and stalling. Again, I admit my ignorance of Guzzis, but I did have a friend with a Harley once which exhibited a similar issue. Turns out a sensor was bad, leading the ECU in that bike to fail to richen up the mixture while it was cold. Sounds EXACTLY like what is happening here.
Let's see what Guzzi says tomorrow re coverage. It's worth trying, since I'm so close to warranty period, AND I have gotten their bike in the press a time or two....
-MKL
You're from NJ, correct? Who are you considering your "local" dealer?
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Shyte, I didn't realize he was local...
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2014 V7R, new map
One of the spark plug caps (the stock ones) was not screwed onto the wire tight enough.
Tightened it, checked the other (OK).
The computer relearned its proper calibrations in about 50 miles, just like Larry said it would.
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My local Guzzi dealmaker had me (as a test) briefly open the gas cap on shutdown then briefly before startup. It was much better and didn't require the customary hold-open-throttle-to-1500rpm for 1 minute trick.
Three weeks ago, as I put on 300-600 a day when riding 8 states over and back, it started better and better. The worse the tappets (needed tune-up) sounded, the better it started.
86 or 87 octane seemed to do better on the interstates but in-town performance suffered until 91-93 octane fill-up for in town riding. Methanol blends were uncharted territory and were only used as an entrance ramp would be less than 1000 feet away. Lowest octane did the best starting.
Then I gets back home and gives dealer big money for 6,000 mile going-over. Stoplight start-outs are now smooth and it winds out like a crotch rocket. But the cold and hot starts are back to their evil-ness with my hand glued to the throttle grip until it idles well enough to pull away in about 35 seconds.
It still has gas in it from a truck stop in New Mexico from 12 days ago so I'm going to put fresh in when the rain quits.
2015 V7S (5-Speed)
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Yes, I'm in Jersey (unfortunately.) The gas is relatively fresh, about 4 weeks old.
I called Guzzi and they explained that they do not reimburse customers directly, but rather take direction from the dealers as to the cause, and then make a determination. My "local" dealer is Fast By Ferracci in PA. There is another dealer in NJ about the same distance away called the "Motorcycle Mall," a multi-brand shop, but when I went there I was wholly unimpressed with the atmosphere. (I bought the bike at Redline in VA.)
So today I will make an appointment with Ferracci, go down there and wait while it's diagnosed, and then call my point of contact at Guzzi to ask again for coverage. They seemed helpful enough on the phone - will keep you updated.
(Checked the spark plugs and caps - all tight and good on that front.)
-MKL
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The saga is over, and I must say, I'm feeling a tad ripped off.
I took the bike to Ferracci as previously discussed. To their credit, they immediately tried to upload a new map and send me on my way, but that didn't make any difference, so they gave me a loaner and told me they'd need more time.
A week went by and I called to check on the bike, and they told me it was the Throttle Position Sensor, and that they were working with Guzzi for goodwill reimbursement.
Then another week went by with no news, so I called and was told they were working on it, negotiating with Guzzi.
Then another 3-4 days went by, and they called and said that actually, it was the map and some bad gas. How, pray tell, does a map "go bad" and why would bad gas only affect the bike when cold? The mystery deepens. But, the bike was ready for pickup.
I arrived and was told that the tech (Ferracci himself, apparently) had spent an hour diagnosing the problem and two hours fixing it. The fix, according to the invoice, was 2 fresh gallons of gas, two new spark plugs, another map reload, and a "TPS reset," for a total of $400.00. Naturally, none of it covered under goodwill.
I paid and left, because, really, what choice do I have? There aren't other dealers around here.....
That said, the bike does run very well now - just like it used to before all this started. I'm skeptical of a need for plugs after 1,800 miles, and I'm also skeptical of "bad gas" from my local BP station that runs a great deal of traffic through it daily. Must've been the map. 3 hours of labor for a map...
Last week, I ordered my "Guzzi Oil Change Kit" from AF1 racing for the impending winter storage. I always put the Goose away when it gets cold outside, around Thanksgiving. I keep the BMW out all year, but the Guzzi is far too pretty to expose to the elements.
-MKL
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The saga is over, and I must say, I'm feeling a tad ripped off.
I took the bike to Ferracci as previously discussed. To their credit, they tried to upload a new map and send me on my way, but that didn't make any difference, so they gave me a loaner and told me they'd need more time.
A week went by and I called to check on the bike, and they told me it was the Throttle Position Sensor, and that they were working with Guzzi for goodwill reimbursement.
Then another week went by with no news, so I called and was told they were working on it, negotiating with Guzzi.
Then another few days went by, and they called and said that actually, it was the map and some bad gas. How, pray tell, does a map "go bad" and why would bad gas only affect the bike when cold? The mystery deepens. The bike was ready for pickup.
I arrived and was told that the tech (Ferracci himself, apparently) had spent an hour diagnosing the problem and two hours fixing it. The fix, according to the invoice, was 2 fresh gallons of gas, two new spark plugs, another map reload, and a "TPS reset," for a total of $400.00. Naturally, none of it covered under goodwill.
I paid and left, because, really, what choice do I have? There aren't other dealers around here, but next time when I need service, I may venture farther away. I'm not the type to scream and yell when paying my bill, but this fix and this bill make little sense to me.
-MKL
Well, over the years we have tried to warn people on this board about Ferracci.
If I'd seen your answer about him being your dealer sooner I would have repeated the warning and suggested another.
There IS ANOTHER DEALER and he's just a little further away - Eurosports in Coopersburg PA.
Massimo (service writer) and his team of techs seem to actually give a crap and have some knowledge about these bikes.
I'm starting to think this is Ferracci's MO, as he essentially did the same thing to me on the Breva 1100 years ago). They always claim the old man himself worked on it (SURE, I'm sure the old man was stupid enough to get my valve cover gaskets baked on because he didn't oil/grease them before installation).
I brought my B11 to him years ago when it was pinging to ask for diagnosis. He told me it needed valves adjusted and a gave it a dyno run (for way too much money). The valves were basically the same as I set them (I knew they were fine but agreed just so he would look further into it), but then it took me hours to scrape off the NEW gaskets that were baked on and the bike still pinged freely.
Anyway, how is it running now? Keep an eye on it. If it starts to cold stumble again, try Pete's warm it up without touching the throttle procedure.
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It's running perfectly. My lesson re Ferracci was learned, and I would gladly travel a bit farther to the other dealer next time. Actually, it's within about 15 miles, so no biggie..... Thanks!
-MKL
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It's running perfectly.
:thumb:
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How many miles did they put on the bike while it was there? (curious)
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Little Goose is always a little cold blooded for about a minute or two. I simply hold RPM at 3000, when it naturally changes pitch I gradually roll off to a smooth idle. I let her idle for maybe 30 seconds--and we are off. Maybe these bikes like to be blown out like mom's old Ford Galaxy 500 with the big V8 390 and 4 barrel carburetor? Once or twice I have had hot start issues, but rarely. Dunno if MPH ever installed any updated maps on my bike.
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As we come into summer I'm still chasing this fuelling issue with Craig Clancy's V7-II. I think at least in part the 'Warm Start', (As opposed to cold or hot start.) issue is down to that shitty plastic ETS holder.
The new V7's have lots of finning, when they are parked they cool quickly but not as quick as the plastic holder. When the engine is re-started after a *Shortish* period of time the detected engine temp and the actual engine temp may be wildly different. It's similar to the old problem with earlier Calis and V11's that have much higher fuel consumption in winter due to lousy ETS signals.
With Craig's bike I've packed the holder with thermal paste. Will this help? I have no idea but he'll let us know I'm sure. The fact that the stepper motor on the MUIG-3 is pretty crude doesn't help I'm sure.
Pete
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Thing is Pete, my V7 has always restarted fine after shorter stops. It's if I stop for an hour or two, or overnight that the child start is rough.
Could still be sensor related, but maybe over fueling due to rich fueling from constantly thinking it's cooler than it is???
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FBF dyno'd my Calvin in an attempt to cure the shitty closed-loop fueling. Did NOTHING, and they charged me 1/2 hour service to remove my bags because they were too WIDE for the dyno booth. Each bag is held on by three acorn nuts that just need to be loosened to lift the bags off. I could have done same in 1 minute in their parking lot. But the kicker is the protection bars that wrap underneath the bags stay in place, and they extend out WIDER than the bags! $400 later my arse was bleeding and the bike never ran right until Todd @ GuzziTech's re-flash.
Burned once, shame on them. Burned twice.....
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FBF dyno'd my Calvin in an attempt to cure the shitty closed-loop fueling. Did NOTHING, and they charged me 1/2 hour service to remove my bags because they were too WIDE for the dyno booth. Each bag is held on by three acorn nuts that just need to be loosened to lift the bags off. I could have done same in 1 minute in their parking lot. But the kicker is the protection bars that wrap underneath the bags stay in place, and they extend out WIDER than the bags! $400 later my arse was bleeding and the bike never ran right until Todd @ GuzziTech's re-flash.
Burned once, shame on them. Burned twice.....
Yup, like I said, their MO.
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How many miles did they put on the bike while it was there? (curious)
They claim 12. I have no idea why. The problem surfaced only at cold startup, but.... I learned my lesson. I don't think I'll be going there again.
-MKL
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Blessed living near Houston. MPH is my copilot.
BTW 1/2 hour labor for remap covered by warrenty.
Dave
Galveston
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Moshe,
Sorry you had an unpleasant experience at Fast by Ferracci. We tried everything to have your issue covered under a goodwill warranty. Unfortunately the decision was out of our hands. If you have any issues you can call Piaggio/Moto Guzzi customer service and discuss this with them, they might be able to help you further. Phone: 877-974-2444 or e-mail: CustomerCare@piaggiogroupamericas.com
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Jim Hamlin in Bethel, CT. Too far for you?