Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: boatdetective on October 02, 2015, 10:33:54 AM
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Maybe a dumb question- but where do you go from here with conventional forks? I mean, seriously, is there anything out that that will provide serious room for advancement from where we are right now? It seems that the best suspenders out there are already beyond the capability of most riders anyway. It seems that the technology (what do I know) has reached that leveling off point where there are no huge leaps, only incremental baby steps. Or, in a way, whizz bang electronic gadgets like the on the fly adjustable units of the Yamaha R1M
If this is true, then why don't manufacturers trickle down better technology, valving, etc. to basic units on lower level machines? I hate to be cynical, but is this a case of them literally holding back the abilities of the lower tier bikes simply to justify the $$$ of the upper end product line?
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I just saw a internet blurb on the next hi tech step for their DeWalt power hand tool Lith-i battery packs: Bluetooth.
Bluetooth communications with your front suspension? Why not? Make up a bunch of sensors for the front fork caps - make up some hi tech sounding data labels for the system to monitor and it can be a marketing success. Each year make the improved models have faster sampling rates, better looking software for the handheld apps, more hi techish labels .....
:boozing:
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I would say yes. There has to be a reason to pay more money for some bikes. Sometimes it is just the engine or 'add ons' like fairings, luggage, etc. Other times it is the electronics.
I'm surprised they don't just do option packages. Different seats, bars, pegs suspension bits, luggage, etc, etc. BMW does a pretty good job with some of that stuff but it could be even more so.
You could have just a few different frames/power trains and let folks buy the combination they want.
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You hit the nail on the head in that the current top of the line suspension can exceed some riders ability to use it fully.
I would say that part of that reason is because the typical rider can't easily adjust the suspension to meet their needs. Adaptive technologies could go a long way to letting even novice riders adjust their suspension to optimum for their riding styles and then store that info as personal choices.
Suspension these days is pretty much set and live with it or where adjustable suspension via electronics is concerned, preset adjustments that someone at the factory came up with.
Where is the ability to adjust the suspension, store the preference and then recall it as needed?
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Not sure I understand the question Jonathon . Are you asking why budget bikes have budget suspension , or what is going to be the next big breakthrough in suspension is going to be ? The Triumphs and BSAs of the late sixties had pretty decent forks and shocks for the era , as did Guzzi and BMW , but by today's standards would be considered antiquated . Ducati has something called skyhook suspension that seems to be an advancement , but Ducs sell for a premium , and then there are the designs that Yamaha and Bimota have employed with center hub steering , that while working well , were costly and not really well received . Having ridden beemers with Hossack style and swingarm forks that worked nicely , they could be refined in the future , although BMW has gone back to upside down tube forks on several models .
Dusty
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The existing manufacturing equipment used by the current makers limits your options too.
Electric suspension controls? To adjust any active suspension servo requires power - the connectors, and flexing cables will be a design challenge.
How are the top automotive active suspensions manufactured nowadays? I'd probably look there first for components to borrow first, modify and repackage.
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I guess my point is, flat out, there should be no excuse for shyte forks these days as it seems the only difference between good and bad is some shims, little holes, springs, etc. For god's sake, I can get a dual overhead cam liquid cooled engine that is considered "budget". Why is "high end" suspension thousands and thousands of dollars? It certainly isn't justified by the amount of additional machining necessary in the "better" forks. The point here is that most motorcycle powerplants have advanced tremendously, run well, and are leaps and bounds better than 20 yrs ago. So why are we still given crummy forks?
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It seems like most of the advancements now, as Penderic hints, are coming less in the way of the literal suspension itself and more in how it can be controlled, modified to your own whims on the fly.
But really, I don't see what so wrong with the old suspension. Seemed to suit me.
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc57/bpreynolds/image_zpsc04muknf.jpeg) (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/bpreynolds/media/image_zpsc04muknf.jpeg.html)
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It seems like most of the advancements now, as Penderic hints, are coming less in the way of the literal suspension itself and more in how it can be controlled, modified to your own whims on the fly.
But really, I don't see what so wrong with the old suspension. Seemed to suit me.
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc57/bpreynolds/image_zpsc04muknf.jpeg) (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/bpreynolds/media/image_zpsc04muknf.jpeg.html)
Talk about red suspenders :laugh:
Dusty
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When dealing with high volumes of manufacture there are savings to be made. Look at bikes like your Shiver and my Mana. Two great bikes with absolutely shit suspension in stock form! Look around on any forums and you'll see few complaints and most owners are only interested in 'More Power'. If a manufacturer can save $50 per unit by fitting crappy non adjustable forks and shocks without suffering much in the way of sales losses then of course they'll take the option.
The good news for most of us is that stuff like forks in particular are mostly 'Generic' and the bay of fleas is full of cheap, fully adjustable units that can be had for little real money.
Pete
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...
The good news for most of us is that stuff like forks in particular are mostly 'Generic' and the bay of fleas is full of cheap, fully adjustable units that can be had for little real money.
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True dat. For my Honda NC700X the hot lick is to replace the rear shock with a unit from the back of an Aprilia Tuono. Seems the owners of those like rear shocks that are even more high zoot. One mans garbage is another mans treasure. But the original arg about damper rod forks? no excuse why they still exist. so many of my recent bikes have just beat the shit out of me over square edged and stutter bumps. too much compression damping.
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The sad part is this , even damper rod tech has progressed from where it was 30 years ago , and can be made to work acceptably . One does wonder sometimes how the manufacturers can miss so horribly on spring and damping rates .
Dusty
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I'm surprised by the mention of a pair of middle weight Aprilia's with reference to crap suspension. I think there are a lot of far east built bikes (and cars for that matter with shockingly cheap suspension. That's because they are $2500 bikes (even if they are sold for over twice a price in Europe or US))
European and US bikes have to be significantly better yes, and reasonable quality suspension is part of the difference but seriously top end suspension no! For a few reasons:
Bikers are conservative.
Suspension by its nature wears out, expensive suspension = expensive repairs
It's been tried before, eg Bimota
Radically different suspension mean learning a new riding technique
The traditional setup (even twin rear shocks) works pretty well
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It seems like most of the advancements now, as Penderic hints, are coming less in the way of the literal suspension itself and more in how it can be controlled, modified to your own whims on the fly.
But really, I don't see what so wrong with the old suspension. Seemed to suit me.
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc57/bpreynolds/image_zpsc04muknf.jpeg) (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/bpreynolds/media/image_zpsc04muknf.jpeg.html)
In case you can't spot what's wrong with that picture, it's the Webley. :rolleyes:
On topic -- I have no problem with a budget bike having budget suspension and the tarty models having better. I'll guess that most riders can't approach the limits of their suspension (until they exceed them) on a stock Jackal. Riding both the Jackal and EV, I can't really tell which has the better stuff.
But I plod along when I ride -- very little white-knuckle grinding of bike parts on the pavement.
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One big reason I keep my R1150R is the Telelever front suspension, which separates the suspension function from the steering via a separate shock absorber, and mechanically limits the fork dive to 10% of travel. It also allows you to use a premium shock (I use an Ohlins), which makes for great ride and handling. On the latest successor model, you have to spring for ESA to get the anti-dive control. Haven't ridden one, so I can't say if the ESA can match the Ohlins overall, but have my doubts.
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To answer your question a better suspension does involve a little more money and a better suspension is not visible on a showroom. It is not a marketing priority. Some guys have the perfect weight and riding habits for a cheap suspension and so there are not a whole lot of complaints. So they save a few bucks and go with the cheap stuff.
In the automotive world the best rides are obtained with sensors and computers that control the dampening action of the shocks. It works but is even more expensive and is of course one more thing to fail. I don't think it is possible to improve the present basic motorcycle suspension without spending a good amount of money.
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I'd say quite a few people who think their suspension setups are fine wouldn't say so if they had top notch stuff, not the run of the mill now factory standard.
Raise the standard. Adjustable suspension systems have been around quite a while. Look at Subaru's or any pneumatically adjustable suspension even as far back as the 80s. A really small pump with a controller that could fit anywhere, even on a bike. It sensed speed, ride height and so on. Dial a ride suspension is doable.
Do you want to pay for it is the question.
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Do you want to pay for it is the question.
Most people are not willing to pay an additional $2,000 for nice suspension.
Me? I'd gladly pay extra for it.
The bargain bin bits on my V7 Special have had me pining for the Ohlins parts on my old V11 LeMans NC.
I'd love to see what that fork would feel like on my V7.
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It seems like most of the advancements now, as Penderic hints, are coming less in the way of the literal suspension itself and more in how it can be controlled, modified to your own whims on the fly.
But really, I don't see what so wrong with the old suspension. Seemed to suit me.
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc57/bpreynolds/image_zpsc04muknf.jpeg) (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/bpreynolds/media/image_zpsc04muknf.jpeg.html)
Thank you for a truly disturbing image that now is burned into my retinas.
I have to do some measuring to figure out what will fit in the Shiver. It's a great engine indeed, but the suspenders are very harsh.
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When I buy a new motorcycle, I usually spend $1500-2000 to get the suspension and brakes right for me. But I am 300 pounds, and set my bikes up for wife and I.
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When I buy a new motorcycle, I usually spend $1500-2000 to get the suspension and brakes right for me. But I am 300 pounds, and set my bikes up for wife and I.
And that's the shame of it. If they sold a bike with modifiable suspension components where you wouldn't have to completely ditch the stock stuff and start over it would be wonderful. I would take that over new tech.
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And that's the shame of it. If they sold a bike with modifiable suspension components where you wouldn't have to completely ditch the stock stuff and start over it would be wonderful. I would take that over new tech.
I'd like it too - especially for suspension, tires, seats, and handlebars.
Seems like a "kit" bike shipped by the factory and the dealer builds it to owner's spec would be a great idea.
There's bound to be something wrong with it though - it's sounds so good but nobody's doing it. Maybe it's just the 15 of us who want it, and no one else in the entire country .... !
Lannis
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So with the random topics complaining about factory suspension, mapping, displacement, foot position, saddles, bars, mirrors, aerodynamics, lighting, charging, plastic tanks, etc, ad nauseum, how's a mfgr going to please anyone without making each bike a totally custom one-off?
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I'd like it too - especially for suspension, tires, seats, and handlebars.
Seems like a "kit" bike shipped by the factory and the dealer builds it to owner's spec would be a great idea.
There's bound to be something wrong with it though - it's sounds so good but nobody's doing it. Maybe it's just the 15 of us who want it, and no one else in the entire country .... !
Lannis
I like how a bicycle manufacturer "specs" bikes at different component levels keeping the same basic frame.
Price point changes reflecting lower, middle and upper level parts(brakes, handlebars, derailleurs,seats, wheels etc,etc..)
Dealer will work with you to swap stuff out also.
Speaking of suspension, wasn't that Citroën an amazing vehicle so long ago ?!! :thumb:
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I guess my point is, flat out, there should be no excuse for shyte forks these days as it seems the only difference between good and bad is some shims, little holes, springs, etc. For god's sake, I can get a dual overhead cam liquid cooled engine that is considered "budget". Why is "high end" suspension thousands and thousands of dollars? It certainly isn't justified by the amount of additional machining necessary in the "better" forks. The point here is that most motorcycle powerplants have advanced tremendously, run well, and are leaps and bounds better than 20 yrs ago. So why are we still given crummy forks?
I have to side with this side of the discussion. Certainly I understand that a bike which will be used for track days should come with different suspension than a street bike. My 1200 Sport stock suspension was easily dialed in to suit a wide variety of sport touring type roads here in Ohio. Many have bad surfaces. My Griso, on the other hand, (IMHO) could be dialed in for either (a) less punishing or (b) more punishing. I was surprised when I came to this conclusion, since I unfortunately assumed that Guzzi would have considered both the Sport and the Griso as street-oriented machines.
Well, that problem is partially solved. The lovely Griso (best looking machine I've ever owned, and on smooth roads a pleasure) has been sold. I was not in the mood to work with the suspension to hopefully arrive at a ride that was sport-touring compliant, and perhaps totally miss the mark, after spending lots of $$ green stuff. I didn't feel the stock suspension was close enough for me to make reasonable mods and arrive at the results I wanted. But again, that's me.
Others welcome the opportunity to take something totally unsuitable and make it work properly. Now, that's not me.
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You could have just a few different frames/power trains and let folks buy the combination they want.
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Use the Microsoft model.
The suspension has all the options available, but software controlled.
You 'subscribe' and pay for the option you want. BlueTooth upgrades you to what you paid for.
Problem is if you are in the hinterlands, out of wifi range. System reverts to baseline.
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Or use the HD method. Pick the model and tell the dealer what stuff you want changed. Seats, bars, pipes, shocks, etc. Works for them.
I still don't understand why mfgs won't go the options route on bikes. Get upgraded suspension for $x. Some will, some won't. Should be a no brainer.
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:1:
Use the Microsoft model.
The suspension has all the options available, but software controlled.
You 'subscribe' and pay for the option you want. BlueTooth upgrades you to what you paid for.
Problem is if you are in the hinterlands, out of wifi range. System reverts to baseline.
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Had a talk with Seacoast sport cycles about how to improve on the showa Griso forks and they said they commonly replace the springs and install Olins valves. They said it would make a big difference in tun-ability. Sounds like it would be a worthwhile investment. Has anyone tried this on a Griso?
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A couple of thoughts after reading through the thread...
1 - Yes, there is a thing called product differentiation and another thing called price point. They drive a lot of decisions about how a manufacturer configures their offerings.
2 - Yes, the classic fork suspension and its variations are pretty old hat in many ways, and yes, they can be made to be far better than their operators.
3 - Yes, radically different designs have been tried - but unless they are radically better or radically cheaper or both, they can't gain traction in the market.
4 - Yes, there is new technology being added to existing fork design. Consider the parallel with ABS, which first appeared on the highest end bikes at a premium price, and over the last 15 years or so has become sufficiently compact, light, and especially cheap enough to appear on sub-$5000 machines (even some cheap Chinese scooters claim it, but I'm not gonna depend on that!).
My not so surprising prediction is that the adaptive suspension a la Aprilia Caponord (currently a $15,000 bike, at least nominally) will start appearing on $10,000 bikes - and then $7000 bikes. How long that takes will depend on demand, on components like pumps and controls becoming cheaper (we all know the electronics are gonna do that anyway), and on the willingness of manufacturers to step ahead of the competition to grab a bit of market share at the risk of increased build costs.
As for something revolutionary in suspension design? I'm afraid till the next Colin Chapman comes along, it's impossible to predict.
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Where is the ability to adjust the suspension, store the preference and then recall it as needed?
Sounds like the next feature for BMW to add to ESA.
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Mediocre suspension on fairly pricey bikes reminds me of the Ford Pinto, which came with no oil cooler for the automatic transmission. My instructor at the local Junior College automotive mechanics program 30 years ago remarked that it would have cost Ford $7 (in the early 1970s when the Pinto came out) to add a simple oil cooler to the transmission. This would have doubled transmission life. Nope, Ford nixed the idea. The 7 buck saving was more important.
The better suspension query would apply also to the miserable seats on most OEM motorcycles. There is a huge demand for aftermarket seats, which cost from $500 to over $800 each. It might cost a manufacturer $50-100 more to supply a good OEM seat, but they never seem to get the message...
Ralph
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Like the point about seats. Guy was showing me his 60s Lambretta other day. Seat has springs in it like an old bed. New seats are just naff by comparison. Maybe this is a new thread?
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Had a talk with Seacoast sport cycles about how to improve on the showa Griso forks and they said they commonly replace the springs and install Olins valves. They said it would make a big difference in tun-ability. Sounds like it would be a worthwhile investment. Has anyone tried this on a Griso?
Hot ticket here in Oz is the Matris inserts. Mark B and Mark S both have them I believe and swear by them. They are the next thing on my wish list :evil: I also need a softer spring for my Matris rear shock. Matris seem to over-spring their stuff for comfortable road use.
Pete
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Speed costs...how fast ya wanna go?
Price some Penske shocks for a dirt late model.
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OP may consider,
http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/ace/overview/ (http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/ace/overview/)
Wonder what cost is for girder fork option?
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Good thread
Adjustable suspension is great, parameters limited by vaalving, spring rate and design
Electronically done, absolutely ditto
Caponord good example, if you ask for cliampliant suspenders you get half an engine
Twiddly diddly buttons help some, but not the Fussiest.
Time spent, not money, anyone wants better, work yourself or with expert to get what YOU need, not possible from box.
My 2c
Early forks with emulators easier than cartridges to get "right" (cope with travelling not a track)
Pre load adjusters on forks help but add/subtract washers will get you there if patient