Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mach1mustang351 on October 07, 2015, 05:20:19 PM
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So I was talking with some folks and we were discussing the feasibility of a big block GUzzi (more specifically, my 1000SP) breaking that 100hp number. I did some searching but came up empty on any info. What would you guys say is realistic reliable high HP number and the pushed to the limit threshold? I doubt I will build anything, just talking.
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Stock bore and stroke? Nitrous? Supercharging? I have no idea. Just remember, a stock LeMans IV might be around what, 65 horses? But they're BIG horses.
(https://keepcalmandrideadraft.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/why-on-earth-would-you-buy-a-draft-horse-for-riding-001.jpg)
:cool:
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Might see if you can get hold of Stan who used to own Stans Guzzi & Bmw in Gainesville FL.
He is no longer a dealer but still has a couple of race Guzzi's. I have never heard them run but from what others have said he apparently has tapped into some raw power. One is his "mild machine" & the other is his maxed out machine.
He still has a shop & is only there when he wants to be there but he may share some info.
I just did a quick search & it looks like he may have a facebook page: Stans BMW Guzzi Gainesville Fl
Good Luck
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So I was talking with some folks and we were discussing the feasibility of a big block GUzzi (more specifically, my 1000SP) breaking that 100hp number. I did some searching but came up empty on any info. What would you guys say is realistic reliable high HP number and the pushed to the limit threshold? I doubt I will build anything, just talking.
Starting with a 1000SP motor would be most likely doing it the hard way are we talking crank or rear wheel? You'd really want to start with a least a MkV/1000s big valve motor (not all countries go the big valves) 1100 sport or even a Daytona era 4 valve or even the current 4 valve. The next question is what are you prepared to trade off, rideability? Longevity? I'd start here bring money the bloke has specialised in a brand with a tiny market share so you'll pay http://www.mikerichmotorsports.com/products.html. Ultimately you'd get hold of a MGS-01 motor or maybe a Millipercento BB and you'd have your 100 + hp there won't be much Guzzi left by the time your done.
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The stock 1000SP heads are pretty limiting if you want to make horsepower. At least start with a big valve..
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So I was talking with some folks and we were discussing the feasibility of a big block GUzzi (more specifically, my 1000SP) breaking that 100hp number. I did some searching but came up empty on any info. What would you guys say is realistic reliable high HP number and the pushed to the limit threshold? I doubt I will build anything, just talking.
A round cyl Guzzi with big valves, 1050cc cyl kit, carillo rods, the right cam and fuel injection can put over 100 on the ground. BTDT. But it would be a little ill-natured for the street and in an old tonti frame it would probably not be fun.
But as noted it is easier to get a later engine to start with. And a Griso would handle a LOT better than an SP!
Hunter
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I've always wanted a bit more out of my CalVin, but in its current state I have no clue why. Damned thing runs great, reliable as an anvil and handles superbly well.
I always thought a mild port job and a bit more cam would do all it would ever need. Add 10 more HP and it would be quite fun.
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Pick up a copy of "Sportbike Performance Handbook" by K. Cameron. There's a lot of good information there about how to squeeze extra HP out of an engine. But don't expect anything specific to MG. It's not a how to book. Instead he talks about how the modern motorcycle engine works (to a much deeper level than I ever imagined) and then suggest things that can be done to improve performance.
Tom
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Or, get a Griso and you'll have your 100+ HP. Maybe not at the rear wheel but you'd be a lot closer and making something.
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I agree it is a lot easier to buy something that is already there or further along already. I was just looking at possibilities. At work We were discussing 100hp bikes, I said my new Stelvio theoretically makes 100. Then I was asked "what about your old Guzzi you think it could make 100?" My answer.... maybe. Thats what got me on the subject. have no engine overhaul in the works.
Whats funny, is I told my coworker, that if I wanted a 100 hp 1000sp I would transplant a late model engine and start from there. But is that as much fun?? Depends on who you ask I guess
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Didn't the stock centauro have 95hp?
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I always thought a mild port job and a bit more cam would do all it would ever need. Add 10 more HP and it would be quite fun.
For about 100 miles, when you'd be used to it and want just another 10 more. :laugh:
60 hp is too much, and 150 is not enough, or something like that.
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For about 100 miles, when you'd be used to it and want just another 10 more. :laugh:
60 hp is too much, and 150 is not enough, or something like that.
+1
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The horse power is there, but it is not reaching the blacktop. My focus has been reducing the amount of weight the horse power has to deal with. Going on a diet would be the easiest and cheapest way, but I am old and to skinny now. Then reducing the weight of your bike. Lighter rims, lighter clutch/flywheel assembly, timing gears and lighter rods and pistons. Then start taking other parts off your bike and drilling holes. The weight to horse power ration is my goal. Another area to look at is the piston squish.
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For some people there's a satisfaction from building an engine rather than just buying something. It is the the American Hot Rod tradition....Of course not everyone has the skills. If I can squeeze 60 reliable HP from a vintage 650 Triumph..I would think 100 hp from a 950 cc old style Guzzi is possible...Not cheap of course....And the bike will be a street fighter not a cross country Interstate sofa..
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Might see if you can get hold of Stan who used to own Stans Guzzi & Bmw in Gainesville FL.
He is no longer a dealer but still has a couple of race Guzzi's. I have never heard them run but from what others have said he apparently has tapped into some raw power. One is his "mild machine" & the other is his maxed out machine.
He still has a shop & is only there when he wants to be there but he may share some info.
I just did a quick search & it looks like he may have a facebook page: Stans BMW Guzzi Gainesville Fl
Good Luck
I used to hang out with Stan at races in the late '80s after buying my LMIV and Monza from him. Certainly does know a thing or three about making power. Back around '88 or so I stopped in at his shop in Gainseville while on my way to my folks house in Clearwater. How anyone could do anything with the mess of engine and transmission parts on all of his workbenches was beyond me. In his office we started talking Big Block horsepower and he handed me a box which contained a 92mm piston. "That's next."
His then-wife Sherry raced LeMans IVs. Never saw that but saw later incarnations run. Glorious noise!
Tobit
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Old Guzzi's are just fun to hop up, a guy should be able to twist out a clutch hub occasionally .
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I am pretty sure the US Raceco Guzzi built by Manfred put out well over 100HP. I think it was around 1300ccs but started out as a 950. Some local guys bought the bike and raced it a few times but the light flywheel blew apart giving the rider second thoughts about riding it.
Pete
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Cheapest way to get 100hp out of a Guzzi it to just lie about it. If someone asks you, they probably know nothing about bikes or Moto Guzzi's specifically. They won't hold you to it, and you can then go get drinks and change the conversation quickly.
Just kidding.... or am I? :tongue:
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I know Stan he's a character. He's been building race bikes for years and evidently very successful. Several year ago I read that Classic Guzzi's were winning race circuit first place awards not for being first place, but winning points for finishing more races. Bill
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Didn't the stock centauro have 95hp?
Sorta. :smiley: As delivered, they would only run at WOT, though. After considerable sorting they would dyno at 95 and have good driveability.
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That's a big horse./l\
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(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic047/post_zpshjjvqofp.jpg)
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100 hp out of a roundfin will be stupidly expensive, and once there probably won't last too long. KABOOM!!!
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Had a 1288 RACECO Daytona which made about 140 hp, someone put a lot of money into developing that. :drool:
For reasonably reliable power that's about where the old motors top out.
I reckon a 95hp at the crank round fin would be a lot of fun in a good looking package, I'd probably be chuffed with 80-85 hp with good mid range.
A strong V11 engine is nice but as others have said if you're happy with that much power getting a LM V would be easiest.
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Everyone brings up good points. I worked in a machine shop for a few years and got paid to make horse power. It was tons of fun but the pay wasn't that good and I eventually had to move on. Building engines and picking a combination, testing measuring, porting, polishing and all that is one of my favorite things. In the bikes ive owned ive never gone inside the engine because the "seat o meter" on a bike is almost always neck snapping compared to a car. Maybe someday I'll make a fast bike. Until then, we'll keep playing verbal dyno at work.
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Stan. Barber.Today.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/anBl9D8AgiGFQJV4u4b2LtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
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Just went through the process of building a round fin SP engine with the aim of adding some pep to its step, but not killing its reliability. The gains were modest but worthwhile, and completely transformed the character of the engine! Even the cost of these modest gains was not cheap, I would hate to see the bill of squeezing 100rwhp out of it, and would not have much hope of it lasting too long ;)
The specifics of my engine are
Gilardoni 950 SP1000 piston/barrel kit
Std crank and rods ( new bolts of course)
Std timing chain setup
Std 1000sp heads with heavy duty valve springs,
and intake ports cleaned up to suit larger carbs and manifolds
36mm Dellorto's and straight 36mm alloy intake manifolds
B-10 cam
Ergal 1.5kg alloy flywheel and lightened ringear
Std deep spline twin plate clutch
C-5 optical ignition
Lemans breather
Sump spacer
HTmoto exhaust ( minus Db killers)
This combo when dyno'd while finalizing the jetting falls a long way short of 100rwhp putting out a touch over 60, has a big flat torque curve, and has proven to be very streetable, and performance wise on a par with the earlier lemans spec bikes, it wasn't a cheap exercise even doing it my self and would hate to see the final cost of wringing out another 40hp! Below is the dyno chart, never been able to find the specs for the stock SP engine, but she is a totally different beast these days ;)
(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h442/trumps1973/Guzzi/Guzzi%20Dyno%20sheet%20001_zpsnoel5ibd.jpg) (http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/trumps1973/media/Guzzi/Guzzi%20Dyno%20sheet%20001_zpsnoel5ibd.jpg.html)
(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h442/trumps1973/Guzzi/RSK_6507_zpsrjtk7ozd.jpg) (http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/trumps1973/media/Guzzi/RSK_6507_zpsrjtk7ozd.jpg.html)
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You will need about 70 lb-ft of torque at 7500 rpm to get the 100 hp rating at that rpm. HP=Torque X RPM/5252. Two years ago I ran the new to me V11 on a dyno and a friend used his 4 valve Griso. My only mods were carbon muffs and K&N that came with the bike. Stock ECU. He had a stocker. Mine-79 and change RWHP. His-89 and change. We both agreed the V11 had better low and midrange with a bit of gnarly where the Griso was almost bland in the same rev band with top speeds neck and neck. HP is a rating, torque is what the engine makes.
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Hmm, seems like the old Guzzi's do have a breathing problem... On the chassis dyno my modified but ancient 650 Triumph race bike makes 55 rear wheel HP @7150 rpm and the peak torque of 46 Ft pounds at 5100 rpm. The engine is not radical and suitable for sporting street use.
A modified 1200 cc Evo Sportster with stock heads and cams makes about 72 rear wheel HP with a proper exhaust (early Buell) with available better heads and cams 95 HP at the rear wheel.
The Guzzi big block lower end looks very rugged to me...I bet with the heads done properly ($$$$) 90 reliable RWP can be had from 1000 cc's
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Just went through the process of building a round fin SP engine with the aim of adding some pep to its step, but not killing its reliability. The gains were modest but worthwhile, and completely transformed the character of the engine! Even the cost of these modest gains was not cheap, I would hate to see the bill of squeezing 100rwhp out of it, and would not have much hope of it lasting too long ;)
The specifics of my engine are
Gilardoni 950 SP1000 piston/barrel kit
Std crank and rods ( new bolts of course)
Std timing chain setup
Std 1000sp heads with heavy duty valve springs,
and intake ports cleaned up to suit larger carbs and manifolds
36mm Dellorto's and straight 36mm alloy intake manifolds
B-10 cam
Ergal 1.5kg alloy flywheel and lightened ringear
Std deep spline twin plate clutch
C-5 optical ignition
Lemans breather
Sump spacer
HTmoto exhaust ( minus Db killers)
This combo when dyno'd while finalizing the jetting falls a long way short of 100rwhp putting out a touch over 60, has a big flat torque curve, and has proven to be very streetable, and performance wise on a par with the earlier lemans spec bikes, it wasn't a cheap exercise even doing it my self and would hate to see the final cost of wringing out another 40hp! Below is the dyno chart, never been able to find the specs for the stock SP engine, but she is a totally different beast these days ;)
(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h442/trumps1973/Guzzi/Guzzi%20Dyno%20sheet%20001_zpsnoel5ibd.jpg) (http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/trumps1973/media/Guzzi/Guzzi%20Dyno%20sheet%20001_zpsnoel5ibd.jpg.html)
(http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h442/trumps1973/Guzzi/RSK_6507_zpsrjtk7ozd.jpg) (http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/trumps1973/media/Guzzi/RSK_6507_zpsrjtk7ozd.jpg.html)
This is awesome. Good information. This may ne worth doing some winter... just cause. Thanks!!
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That's a beautiful bike Trumps. :thumb:
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These guys claim 106hp out of their "Corsa #9" roundhead racer. There are other beautiful Guzzis and other bikes on their site too.
What's that old line? "Speed costs money. How fast can you afford to go?"
http://www.classicco.biz/motocicletas/moto-guzzi-green-race
(http://www.classicco.biz/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/guzzi_verde_jaime5-708x398.jpg)
Edit: They claim 118hp for this one.
http://www.classicco.biz/motocicletas/moto-guzzi-race-mauro
(http://www.classicco.biz/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/guzzi_carreras_mauro5-708x398.jpg)
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Might see if you can get hold of Stan who used to own Stans Guzzi & Bmw in Gainesville FL.
He is no longer a dealer but still has a couple of race Guzzi's. I have never heard them run but from what others have said he apparently has tapped into some raw power. One is his "mild machine" & the other is his maxed out machine.
He still has a shop & is only there when he wants to be there but he may share some info.
I just did a quick search & it looks like he may have a facebook page: Stans BMW Guzzi Gainesville Fl
Good Luck
According to this article Stan has/had Baldwin's Superbike as tuned by Leoni . I saw that bike win at Charlotte in 1977 and would say it had some HP:
http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/mc-dispatch/riding-a-friduss-racing-moto-guzzi-lemans-superbike.aspx