Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: archwaykid on October 13, 2015, 07:56:19 AM
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Hello all,
London (England) Guzzista here.
Loving the V7 Stone very much but this morning (Temp - 10C or 50F), I had a nightmare! I start the bike. It revs really high (and I mean real high) and dies. I start it again and again, the same. Just didn't know what to do and I use (need) the bike to commute to work. Eventually I just said, well I'll start shifting gears and see what happens. And that's what I did but did notice a lots of heads turning because the idling was REALLY loud? They must've felt a train approach them or something.
Never had this issue with my Honda Shadow before. So this was a bit of a shock for me.
It's as if the throttle is on just so slightly. So the Idle RPM remains at 20 (if that makes sense). That's too high no? Is this to do with Idlespeed at all?
Coldstart? But surely not. The bike is 2014 with just 1000 miles on it.
Should I take it to a Guzzi dealer?
Bike - V7 Stone 2014
Any words of advice appreciated. I have been riding for a few years but a noob in terms of actual bike maintenance. With the Honda there wasn't much of this 'Owner participation' :)
Look forward to your suggestions and replies.
Ta,
Jay
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Assuming nothing is binding (throttle cables) and there are no obvious leaks (intake manifold-to-throttle body, or to-head)? Then yeah, I'm thinking you should probably see a dealer.
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It should idle at about 1300, so yeah. 2000 is too high.
With such low miles, I guess you've recently bought it? I would take it to the dealer to have the EFI looked at .
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Definitely not normal behavior. After you and your dealer get it fixed, I'd be curious to learn what the problem was.
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Thank you chaps. I will keep you updated. I'm really hoping it is something silly like the throttle or so. Just disappointed at this.
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Something to check before heading to the dealer. Check the idle speed while turbing the handlebars lock to lock. If the idle speed changes, good chance it is twisted or bound cables.
The check throttle operation doing the same. You don't need tobrace the engine and this little test isn't going to hurt a thing. Good idea to be seated on the bike while doing this with rear brake engaged and on center stand if you have one. Safety first.
Easier to check the simple things first. While you can still visit the dealer at least you'll have information to give them one way or another. The dealer can use the information regardless of what the test reveals.
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Thanks Norge pilot. Appreciate your advice.
Update - So today I had the same high rev start issue. But I noticed the following too -
1) On idle at 1500 rpm, it's as if the throttle is revving ever so slightly. Like for e.g a slight rev every 2 or 3 seconds. Is this normal?
2) When I accelerate to change my gears, the throttle doesn't respond. i.e. It takes a bit of time for the revs to come down.
Really annoying and I just don't know what to do!! Have called the service (she has had a service at 650 miles already!!) people.
Throttle - Have 2 cables running the throttle.
Ta all,
Jay
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Try letting it warm up for 2-3 minutes BEFORE taking off. Sounds like you need the updated map.
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Try letting it warm up for 2-3 minutes BEFORE taking off. Sounds like you need the updated map.
Sounds to me like it needs more than an updated map. Even the worst maps don't cause that severe a problem. And to the OP, no, it's not normal, the idle speed shouldn't wander up and down, and when you accelerate to change gears, the throttle shouldn't hesitate before responding. Get thee to a dealer.
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Question for the OP: Before this occurred, did you fill the tank right before parking the bike?
The reason I ask is that something similar happened to me last week. Bike was revving high on start-up, but it was a beautiful day, so I was determined to go for a ride. I quickly got into my gear while it was warming up at the higher idle, and took off. While on the road, I also noticed surging of revs when off throttle, so after about 20 minutes of this, I pulled over, stopped the engine, and took off the gas cap. No noticeable "whoosh" to indicate any kind of vacuum in the tank, but after locking the cap back on and starting the bike again, it idled normally, and the surging was gone. Bike ran perfectly for the next 100 miles, and has run fine since. Not sure that letting the tank breathe for a bit had anything to do with resolving the high idle/surging, but it's definitely worth a shot. Good luck!
By the way, I'm running the new map in mine. I don't think it's related, but if you're not running the latest map for the 1TB 5-speed, it's worth doing anyway. Much smoother at low speeds.
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Ta Cam, Sib and O. Appreciate your continued support.
Cam - I'd LOVE to warm the bike 2-3 minutes but the engine just dies. Revs up to about 4000 and dies. So it just wouldn't last that long let alone perhaps 30 secs. It really hurts to hear the bike rev that high. It's something I can't explain.
Chaps I must confess, I am an absolute noob when it comes to maintenance of motorcycles. Was spoilt rotten because I had a Honda Shadow Phantom (Black Spirit in England) before so absolutely ZERO maintenance. The only 'maintenance' that I did do was wash the bike and polish it. That's it. Oh yes, charge the battery.
Since the bike is covered by warranty, I've called the dealer and taking her in next Monday. I am curious myself.
I need a drink!! Have a brilliant day chaps.
I have also just purchased Zimmerman's book on motorcycle maintenance. So that would be good in the interim.
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I hope it is a simple fix. The good news is that you are under warranty, and your dealer that will get you right. In my experience with my bike it never did the severe revving yours is exhibiting, it was just a bit cold blooded on start-up. The updated map did resolve that, but your issue sounds different than simple cold blooded startups. One other thing to watch for is rear seal leaks on the final drive. I had mine replaced under warranty, no problems since.
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You'll like the book.
Zimmerman is a personal friend.
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There's actually a new MAP update just released a couple days ago that supposedly addresses issues similar to the one you're having. I haven't put it on any bikes yet so I don't have further thoughts on it, but thought I'd throw it out there.
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There's actually a new MAP update just released a couple days ago that supposedly addresses issues similar to the one you're having. I haven't put it on any bikes yet so I don't have further thoughts on it, but thought I'd throw it out there.
Please tell us more. Is this new map for the 5-sp V7's or the 6-sp V7-II's? What is the version number? As far as I am aware, the latest V7 map is 352BV738 and the latest V7-II map is 4533V796. Thanks, Sam
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Hello all,
Update for you.
So today, I started the bike. NO ISSUES and she rode like thunder. Mate, was I happy! Point to note - Temp was 12C or 53F. And on both occassions, when the rev problem happened, the temp was 10c or below 10c. 50F or lower. Could this be a temp related issue perhaps?
Still taking her in on Monday though. Will let you all know the results.
Ta,
J
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Sounds to me like it needs more than an updated map. Even the worst maps don't cause that severe a problem. And to the OP, no, it's not normal, the idle speed shouldn't wander up and down, and when you accelerate to change gears, the throttle shouldn't hesitate before responding. Get thee to a dealer.
Last yearI tested a V7 Stone. It ran as described, brand new at the dealer, and I couldn't believe that a modern EFI bike could escape a factory or dealer running like that.
So I did not buy it. Too bad, I liked most everything else.
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Well, my �13 Stone of course is cold blooded. It surges between appr. 1200 and 1400/min. And? As it is a very old-fashioned Italian air-cooled engine I let her warm up some minutes (closing the garage door, fixing the helmet on my head, putting on the gloves....). Then I warm her up carefully while driving. After a few minutes or so she runs beautifully.
I should mention that my engine behaves a bit better when it is cold (about 7�C).
If I would be bothered with this behavior of the engine I could have bought a Honda. For less money. I account this under "character".
To Jay: I would discuss the behavior of your bike with the dealer. And thake a look at the rubber tubes running from the throttle body to the intakes. If the bike draws bleed air here the outcome could be as described.
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The fact that it is an intermittent issue, combined with low temperature operation would suggest to me that the problem is related to the ECU or the mapping. Physical problems, bound up throttle cables or loose vacuum connections would probably not go away with temperature changes.
But you never know! LOL Looking forward to hearing the solution to this problem.
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Thank you chaps.
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Like Fossil my Stone has always been a little cold blooded and does surge (only a couple hundred rpm up and down from target idle AT THE MOST) on a cold start. Like Fossil it actually does better in cold weather. One guess I've heard and agree with is that the ECM is actually over-compensating for cold starts and that rich mixture is fine when it is REALLY cold out, but not so good when it is hot and humid (it's a bridge too far then).
Like Mrwen says the intermittent nature points to something mapping related. The temperature component makes me wonder if it is not the poor design of the head temperature sensor. I'm told they are still mounted in such a manner that sometimes masks the actual head temperature from the sensor. However the one hole in that theory is the ONE time it should be correct then would be cold start-up. I.E. on a cold start it should be the exact same temperature (i.e. ambient). Of course, IF it is always reading low, then it could over time cause the ECM to trim the fuel to one extreme, perhaps an extreme that is ok at warmer ambient temps and/or ok when the bike is fully warmed, but not so good on a cold start (I'm assuming that would be leaner than usual) and THAT could wreak havoc on a cold enough start.
Let us know what the dealer says. Should be an easy fix if they can duplicate it.
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Please tell us more. Is this new map for the 5-sp V7's or the 6-sp V7-II's? What is the version number? As far as I am aware, the latest V7 map is 352BV738 and the latest V7-II map is 4533V796. Thanks, Sam
It's supposedly a standard V7 update though the map number is that same you listed above. So I don't know if it's an update to the map without number change or if in fact their dealer announcement is simply behind the actual release (ie they released the update well before they announced it). I'm guessing their announcement is simply late...but I haven 't had a need to be on pads this week so I haven't checked to see if there is indeed anything new there. If there is, I'll post back.
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It's supposedly a standard V7 update though the map number is that same you listed above. So I don't know if it's an update to the map without number change or if in fact their dealer announcement is simply behind the actual release (ie they released the update well before they announced it). I'm guessing their announcement is simply late...but I haven 't had a need to be on pads this week so I haven't checked to see if there is indeed anything new there. If there is, I'll post back.
Thanks, Fletch. I'll wait with bated bike.
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My 2014 V7 Special had a fluctuating idle when I picked it up from the dealer. It would also stall if not warmed.
A couple weeks ago, I had a dealer update the map with 352BV738 and it ran better. No stalling when cold.
After my head torque / valve adjust, I pulled the main fuse for a minute, then reinstalled it. Then I started the bike (using no throttle) and let it idle for 15 minutes.
Now, the idle is dead-on steady at 1300 rpm. And, I can pull away immediately upon startup when cold.
Totally different bike.
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Thanks a lot Rocker59. Will bear this mind. Just recd my copy of Zimmerman's book. Will be reading this over the weekend.
I will also, be attempting to refix my Bigsby on my Les Paul. Going out of tune... a lot. Annoying as hell. Atleast it stays in tune for....5 minutes. :popcorn:
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I had an SG with a Bigsby. *Never* stayed in tune. No idea how John Cipollina kept his more or less in tune. Les Paul is a bit more solid, so maybe a better chance with that. NGC but motorcycle content there - Paul Bigsby was a machinist and chief mechanic for the Crocker motorcycle company, America's Brough. And then there was the Travis-Bigsby solidbody electric guitar, inspiration for one Leo Fender...
No experience with fuel injection but I'd be checking for intake leaks. Even a small hole you can't see can do that. Yamaha YICS comes to mind, yeech.
cr
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Thanks Guido.
Update -
Started the bike this morning. Temp about 13C (about 56F) and she started fine again.
I'm thinking this might be a sensor issue when it gets cold. I might be wrong.
I'll ask the Dealer on Monday and update.
Have a nice one all
Cheers
J
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So we did end up having to prep a V7 yesterday, and the pads system did indeed download a new update for it (2014 V7). I haven't been back there to look at the map number, but there seems to indeed be an update to the existing map. Just passing the info along.
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So we did end up having to prep a V7 yesterday, and the pads system did indeed download a new update for it (2014 V7). I haven't been back there to look at the map number, but there seems to indeed be an update to the existing map. Just passing the info along.
Is this update for the dry alternator or wet alternator bikes? I believe that the previous updates were different for the two different bikes. Thanks.
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So we did end up having to prep a V7 yesterday, and the pads system did indeed download a new update for it (2014 V7). I haven't been back there to look at the map number, but there seems to indeed be an update to the existing map. Just passing the info along.
Thanks mate. Will check Monday.
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You'll like the book.
Zimmerman is a personal friend.
Tell us more .
Dusty
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Is this update for the dry alternator or wet alternator bikes? I believe that the previous updates were different for the two different bikes. Thanks.
The message from Piaggio says there's one for each. But it doesn't mention the V7IIs
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Right guys, sorry for the hiatus. Only doing a course at the best film school in the world NFTS. So really exhausted.
So took the bike last week and the problem actually was the Lambda sensor. One of them was black with soot apparently. There are 2 attached to the Left and Right exhausts and the one of the right for some reason was faulty. This was cleaned and placed again. Riding ok now.
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Right guys, sorry for the hiatus. Only doing a course at the best film school in the world NFTS. So really exhausted.
So took the bike last week and the problem actually was the Lambda sensor. One of them was black with soot apparently. There are 2 attached to the Left and Right exhausts and the one of the right for some reason was faulty. This was cleaned and placed again. Riding ok now.
Thanks for the update, and I'm glad your bike is running well again. A faulty heater in the lambda sensor could cause it to collect soot. However, another, less desirable possibility is that the cylinder is not running right, and it's putting out enough soot to foul the sensor. You'll soon know.
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Thanks for the update & good luck @ film school! :popcorn: :thumb:
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cheers chaps.
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Hi all
So the problem still continues. But this time I caught it on video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzlusSPZelM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzlusSPZelM)
I've taken her to the dealers again. Perhaps its the stepper motor.
But let's see.
Thanks
Jay
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Hi all
So the problem still continues. But this time I caught it on video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzlusSPZelM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzlusSPZelM)
I've taken her to the dealers again. Perhaps its the stepper motor.
But let's see.
Thanks
Jay
OK, so just to be clear. Each time you are starting it you are not touching the throttle at all right? It's just revving like that and/or hunting like that and dies on it's own?
If that's the case, yeah, you definitely need the dealer to take another look.
HOWEVER, if you're touching the throttle and that is when it dies, then try just letting it warm up on its own.
Now other observations that may or may not be related.
1. It doesn't have to do with your tank, since we're not hearing pressure or vacuum when you opened it, so don't worry about that.
2. That MAINTenance light, did your dealer not reset it after the first service? Or is that an indication of a trouble code (I don't see the check engine light coming back on so I'm thinking the former, but maybe it's not enough time for it to light)?
3. Did you or your dealer perform the Vasco (Pete) recommended idle learning procedure after the repair (it was an O2 sensor repair right?)? The learning procedure is to start the bike, don't touch ANYTHING ESPECIALLY THE THROTTLE, and let it idle until it is fully warmed (10-15 minutes). Reports are it makes quite a difference for cold start/cold idle/low speed operation.
If it IS the stepper (or the ECM or most things related) then your dealer may wind up just replacing the throttle body (since they are both non-serviceable parts of the unit).
I will say that to this day mine will hunt on cold starts and die if I try to ride off before a minute or so (or possibly even touch the throttle in that timeframe). But it doesn't quite hunt as badly as yours did on the third try (though it is close), and it never revs as high as yours did on the first 2 tries.
So I suspect something wrong with the unit and/or at least that learning procedure is needed. IF you can get it to start and run, I'd try that before trying anything else. Well, I might disconnect the negative battery cable for at least 15 minutes first hoping to wipe any learned trim data out and start with a clean slate building the new data in the learning procedure.
Hope that helps.
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Jay,
That video was painful to watch. A definite issue beyond the normal cold starting reluctance. I imagine the dealer will scan w an electronic tool for bad sensors or ECU issues. I'd like to hear what they say.
And the "opening the gas cap" thing isn't the problem. You've got something else.
Joe
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Hi guys
Thanks for the support. I wish I could buy you guys a pint or something. I really appreciate it.
Yeah, the past few months have been rubbish. Dad is poorly and the bike has starting problems. The embarrassing part is, I don't know when the bike will behave this way. I mean, at first, I thought its something to do with the tank. But then the tank is metal and not plastic so that defo isn't an issue. My inclination is that it could be a faulty stepper motor. I say this because of that hunting revs that it does. So bloody annoying I tell you.
Let's see what the dealer says.
Kev - Thanks for the notes.
No, I don't touch the throttle.
I bought the bike as a private sale and he apparently serviced the bike at 644 miles. I have the service booklet that confirms this. The dealer today said that he would reset this.
Not sure about the Vasco. Will enquire with the dealer when he calls today.
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If it's just the maintenance reminder light you can easily reset it yourself:
maintenance reset
New dash is the same as the old one. When you gate the 'Maint' alert when you turn the key on all you have to,do from memory is turn the ignition off, wait for a few seconds and then press the left hand button and hold it down. Now turn the ignition back on and wait for the clocks to go through their dance and the word 'Maint' will appear briefly and then disappear.
Release the button, turn the ignition off and then on again and the 'Maint' warning should of disappeared. Sometimes, for no reason I can make out, you need to have the side stand up for it to work. Don't ask me? I only work here!
I don't know who came up with or started spreading word about the idle/relearn procedure, but the fact that Pete believes in it is enough for me. I probably should try it myself sometime, but I'm not as motivated since my cold start issue is nothing more than a minor annoyance.
Keep us posted and best of luck!
Kev
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I bought the bike as a private sale and he apparently serviced the bike at 644 miles. I have the service booklet that confirms this. The dealer today said that he would reset this.
This might be the give away clue. If it was done at a MG shop they would have cleared the NAINT message. I would not necessarily trust the original service was done correctly. Go check your valves first. They can mysteriously come out of spec. well before the next service interval.
Intake: .15mm (.0059 in)
Exhaust: .20 (.0079 in)
Not sure what the torque is supposed to be. For some reason that point is missing from the V7 service manual. I just tighten them up to what it feels like when I adjust the valves on a car. If you have never adjusted valves before, take your time and just keep redoing it until your clearance until it right. It would be easier with three arms. That feeler gauge should have a slight drag to it when it is in there flat.
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.....Not sure what the torque is supposed to be. For some reason that point is missing from the V7 service manual......
On pages CHAR-11, ENG-95, and ENG-112 of the engine workshop manual, the torque is given as 10 Nm. I normally use a screwdriver and combination wrench to get the nut tight enough while keeping the screw from turning, then double check the setting, then finalize the nut tightness with a torque wrench, then check the setting once again. Never fails.
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Alright gents - I got the bike from the dealer. She is starting fine, although I've had her for a few days and can't really say if this has been solved for good. But this was what the dealer (Slocombes in London, England) did -
1) Tom (the mechanic) mentioned that he replaced the Crankshaft sensor as he felt this could've been the problem.
2) The mapping of the ECU showed a fault. So he re-did the map for the bike.
He (well, I sure do) hopes this problem has now been rectified. But thought you gents ought to know if this arises with anybody else?
Thanks
Jay
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Thanks Pokey. How do I check the voltage of the bike when running? Is this something I can do myself? Don't really fancy taking her to the service centre. Just a long ride.
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One issue that has been encountered on this side of the pond, is a small intake leak, which will cause the symptoms you have. Right after start the O2 sensors will read the intake leak as if the stepper motor is all the way open, so the ECU closes the stepper motor to enrichen the fuel mixture. When the stepper motor closes, it cuts off the airflow to the intakes, and the bike will die. Usually the leak will be close to the intake side of the head, where the rubber boot attaches to the manifold, or the manifold bolts to the head. An easy check for an intake leak is to get the bike running and idling, then spray starting fluid briefly around the intake manifold at the head. If the idle increases, that indicates a leak.
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Archway - yeah follow Pokey's advice - it's really easy, then just connect the voltmeter across the battery terminals and take the reading. Or if you've got a battery tender lead it's even easier, just probe the tender terminals.
Mwrenn - good advice. :thumb:
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There are two other fittings, but they are just pins in rubber grommets. Don't be afraid to pull on it.
Pull hard.
You might rip the rubber grommets or pull them off, but it's okay everyone does it.
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Pull hard.
You might rip the rubber grommets or pull them off, but it's okay everyone does it.
The grommets may end up on the cover when you pull it off -- you'll want to put them back in the holes on the frame before re-installing the cover.
Just don't drop the grommets, because they'll bounce and or roll under something out of sight. :shocked:
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Hi, my brand new '13 V7R had EXACTLY the same problem, and the dealer was worse than useless, so was the Guzzi Technician. They fitted a new ECU, it spent the first 4 out of five months I owned it back at the dealer, but they could find nothing wrong. She is now serviced by Baldrick. I tried everything. I even rejected the bike but they claimed they had "no money". In the end, as an experiment, I disconnected the lambdas. Hey presto. It's never done it again. 20k trouble free miles now on the clock. Here's my vid of the bad running... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=atwqPojoBz8
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Hey guys!
2014 V7 Stone owner from Canada here.
I am having this EXACT same issue with my bike right now! I'm actually happy to read through this as it's confirming some of my guesses about what the issue is. I'm glad the OP's problem has been solved and I'm hoping for the same!
It first popped up just before my initial 1,000km service. I brought it up to the dealership then and they remapped it at that time. I was able to ride regularly for a few months before it started acting up again, this time mostly in colder weather.
NOW the issue seems to have gotten much, much worse. It takes me roughly 20 minutes to get it to idle properly after startup. Today the RPMs were hitting 5500 and instead of falling and dying (like the OP reported) it's just getting stuck. This has also lead to a rapid discolouration of my left tail pipe. When the bike revs that hight it makes me incredibly nervous and it's very stressful to deal with, especially when you're parked on the street trying to take off!
I'm bringing it to the dealer on Saturday to get checked out. It HAS to be either the mapping/ECU, lambda, or one of the other issues mentioned, I guess.
Anyway, just chiming in to lend credence to the idea that this might be a bit of a general issue with 2013-14 Guzzi V7 Stones. And it is very, very aggravating.
Feel free to throw any other solve tips my way, guys.
Thanks for the information!
-A
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Hi, my brand new '13 V7R had EXACTLY the same problem, and the dealer was worse than useless, so was the Guzzi Technician. They fitted a new ECU, it spent the first 4 out of five months I owned it back at the dealer, but they could find nothing wrong. She is now serviced by Baldrick. I tried everything. I even rejected the bike but they claimed they had "no money". In the end, as an experiment, I disconnected the lambdas. Hey presto. It's never done it again. 20k trouble free miles now on the clock. Here's my vid of the bad running... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=atwqPojoBz8
Hey Mr. Kitty,
Are you able to explain and/or point me to some more information about how to disconnect the lambdas? I'm curious to try the same experiment on my bike to see if it solves the problem I'm having, too.
Cheers,
-A
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I would definitely check to ensure that the two rubber boots on the intake manifold are secure and not leaking. And believe it or not, I've seen these screws loosen over time due to vibration, so I now use lock-tite on them.
Also check that the mufflers are securely clamped to the exhaust pipes, and that the clamps on both ends of the cross-over pipe are secure. It's my understanding that leaks in these areas are common, and they will play havoc with the ECU and fueling.
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I would definitely check to ensure that the two rubber boots on the intake manifold are secure and not leaking. And believe it or not, I've seen these screws loosen over time due to vibration, so I now use lock-tite on them.
Also check that the mufflers are securely clamped to the exhaust pipes, and that the clamps on both ends of the cross-over pipe are secure. It's my understanding that leaks in these areas are common, and they will play havoc with the ECU and fueling.
I think Swede's right, it sounds like an intake leak that's leaning out the air-fuel mix. The leak can be small, so it only affects the idle, and you don't notice it a high rpm.
The traditional test is to spray around the intake with carb cleaner, while it's idling, to see if the rpm changes. One area is the joint between the metal intake manifold and the head. Component clearance there is tight, so often the seal is imperfect. I had to use double gaskets on one head to get a good seal.
Keep me posted on this.
Joe
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Any updates on this? I just had exactly the same behaviour as the video. Started , straight to 5000, then drops and stops. Again a 2014 V7 Stone.
i last rode the bike home from work (about 10km) on Tuesday night no problems, it seems the bike doesn't want to go out in the rain tonight :) I've never had a problem before.
Intake manifolds look ok, hose clamps tight. Exhaust manifold bolts tight (the inner bolt on the right does need periodic tightening)
But the return cable where it goes into the throttle body seems to have a lot of play up and down. Is this normal? I wondered if a cable has slipped and there's too much freeplay somewhere, but otoh the behavious seems exactly as described here and I presume a dealer would have noticed something that obvious.